Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » My evolving position on the Paris sound vs. PT.
| Re: My evolving position on the Paris sound vs. PT. [message #66730 is a reply to message #66713] |
Fri, 14 April 2006 21:40   |
Jesse Skeens
Messages: 53
Registered: November 2005
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Member |
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"Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Everyone is making good points in this discussion, but remember, unless
we
>are producing film soundtracks, (or similar), our sounds, be it music, voice
>or fx, are mostly going to be heard on an MP3 device of some sort, (player
>or radio), at least until the new generation of HiDef players are released,
>and then we are going to have the format wars starting all over again.
>No matter what equipment we use, the end result, in real terms, is MP3,
(or
>MP4).
It's all relative though. A great analog mix converted to mp3 is going to
sound a lot better still than a crappy digital one. Although you do lose
quality going to mp3, the essence of the original recording will still be
there. Mp3's do not make all mixes on a level playing field.
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| Re: My evolving position on the Paris sound vs. PT.-Reality check [message #66732 is a reply to message #66704] |
Fri, 14 April 2006 22:03 |
JD
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2005
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Junior Member |
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Well it's kind of funny, a similar discussion is going on at http://www.da7.com/.
The thread is titled, So much for 2". I think some of you will find it
interesting, and have a few laughs. I personally think it shows the ignorance
being proliferated, possibly from the PT community. It's a lot of "I heard"s.
In other works, somebody told me what to think.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I trtack with Paris with folks looki9ng over my shoulder all the time. It's
>a matter of knowing what to do and how to do it. My system is very stable.
>
>As far as financial concerns go, yes, I stick with Paris because of
>financial concerns. If I had the money, there is not doubt at all that I'd
>be tracking to a pair of synced 2" 16 track machines and an API legacy
>console.
>
>Different strokes ;o)
>
>Deej
>"Babu" <musiclab@lund.bonet.se> wrote in message news:443ff4c0$1@linux...
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am a former Paris user who still use Paris now and then, especially
when
>> I remix old songs recorded in Paris. I gave up in favour of Soundscape
>which
>> I truly love.
>>
>> Anyway, I agree with most of the comments about Paris and itīs sound but
>> when it comes to classical music, Paris simply has much left so desire.
It
>> nowhere as clean and accurate as the newer modern systems, be it PT,
>Soundscape,
>> Nuendo, Samplitude etc.
>>
>> I have a fairly large Paris setup and as much magic as it has it is quite
>> unreliable compared to the other systems.
>> For example: Paris can sometimes (randomly) add strange DC offset to the
>> files. It can depending on heat cause clicks. Aux leakage. Just to mention
>> a few anomalies. IOW to me it simply isnīt crystal clear and accurate.
>Also,
>> what is by some percieved as warmth, sounds to me like a bit clouded
>midrange.
>> I have recorded a fair amout of classical choirs in both Paris, Soundscape
>> and Nuendo. In this genre there is simply no competition at all. My
>Soundscape
>> converters (Apogee) simply kills Paris in clarity and detail. OTOH with
>pop/rock,
>> especially acoustic pop/rock (live drums), Paris can sound a bit more
>exciting
>> than the others.
>>
>> Last but not least, sound aside Paris is a dinosaur. The routing options
>> leave A LOT to desire. The I/O flexibility is back to the stone age
>compared
>> to newer systems. The non-sample accurate editing is a PITA. Lack of
>professional
>> I/O options. Very rudimentary handling of native plugins, especially in
>stereo.
>> No bussing possibilites. No VST/DX on master bus. No delay compensation.
>> etc. ect...
>>
>> IMHO most people who are sticking to Paris are doing it for financial
>reasons.
>> Given the very low price the SH systems are going for, the price vs. sound
>> preformance ratio is amazing, compared to other DSP-based system. In a
>true
>> professional enviroment with clients hanging over your shoulder, the
>compromises
>> are just to big, all IMO of course.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.
>>
>> Babu
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >Of course not, you just
>> >have to treat Paris like any other DAW, and don't push it too hard
>> >and it works great for classical.
>> >
>> >That's the beauty of it. It works either way. There is an issue with
the
>> D/A
>> >converters and jitter when using the Paris clock, but with an external
>clock
>> >I've never thought it sounded anything other than what I wanted it to
>sound.
>> >result.....however, this is blasphemy and I have to immediately jack
the
>> >submix faders into the stratosphere so I can hear all that crappy
>distortion
>> >that I like.
>> >
>> >;O)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"DC" <dc@spamthemoon.com> wrote in message news:443f4acc$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> One myth I would like to dispel is that Paris sounds muddy, vintage,
>> >> analog or less detailed than PT's.
>> >>
>> >> It's all in how hard you hit it.
>> >>
>> >> Had a conversation with SSC years ago about using Paris for
>> >> classical and he really ground on me hard to try it and compare it
to
>> >> Sonic Solutions. Sonic has always been the gold standard for
>> >> classical, and honestly I thought he was full of it, but I tried it,
>using
>> >> the same source material. He was right, it was actually better than
>> >> Sonic on a 70-piece orchestra. Some of you have heard that CD.
>> >> Did it sound "vintage" or muddy to you? Of course not, you just
>> >> have to treat Paris like any other DAW, and don't push it too hard
>> >> and it works great for classical. An orchestra recorded with the
>> >> just 2 of the best mics in the world (DPA / B&K) the best pre
>> >> (no tubes please!) and a great convertor is the ultimate test for
>> >> clarity. One little loss of anything and the whole things turns to
>> >> crap. It must be eq'ed and mastered to perfection, but if it is, it
>> >> sounds like you are in the room with the orchestra.
>> >>
>> >> Paris works extremely well on an orchestra and I can tell you that
>> >> unless you push the levels the sound is as real, detailed, open and
>> >> clear as I have ever heard.
>> >> Personally, I think Paris murders PT's on orchestras. The clarity
>> >> and lack of distortion, even on the upper harmonics of high violin
>> >> notes, is really better and the soundstage and imaging is terrific.
>> >>
>> >> Try not hitting Paris so hard in the mixer, push the submix masters
>> >> all the way up, and listen to the audio get nice and pristine.
>> >>
>> >> DC
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
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| Re: My evolving position on the Paris sound vs. PT. [message #66886 is a reply to message #66719] |
Sun, 16 April 2006 08:40 |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Man, I'm out of town for a few days and look at what I miss!
;-)
Rod
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>The fact that this (PT/Paris debate, ad naseum) is actually even still a
>discussion after Paris being "dead" for this long says a whhhooole lot about
>Paris, dunnit?
>What a waste, thanks Creative, for your lack of vision :(
>
>AA
>
>
>"Dedric Terry" <dedric@echomg.com> wrote in message news:443fe185@linux...
>>I think you've misinterpreted that anyone is saying that one approach is
>>better than another.
>> On the contrary, this is just an observation in how we choose our
>> preferences, and the fact that
>> currently available technology significantly exceeds what was available
>> 40, 30, 20 and even 10 years ago.
>> Recording is about capturing audio - period. It's production, mixing,
and
>> the concept of creating listener appeal
>> in the music side of recording that has used it creatively. There isn't
>> anything wrong with that, but recording has always
>> been at the mercy of, and influenced by the available technology. It
>> isn't a platform war, and never was -
>> just a constant attempt to improve each element of the chain within the
>> budgets we have available.
>>
>> I once tested recording a vocal with a binaural head, test measuring
>> system. It sucked for artistic and listening pleasure,
>> but was incredibly reaslistic. Maybe that just goes to show that what
>> entertains us artistically doesn't necessarily benefit
>> from reality. There's nothing wrong with running a mix down to a 4-track
>> cassette deck if that's what floats your
>> boat creatively.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>>
>> "JD" <no@nospam.com> wrote in message news:443fdbe4$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Everybody's got an opinion. Here we go with the PT is better than Paris
>>> stuff
>>> again. I guess this gives us something to talk about, but folks, we're
>>> all
>>> being goaded and bated here.
>>>
>>> This is what is wrong with the record industry. There is not enough
>>> diversity
>>> in sound and music styling these days. The whole cookie cutter approach
>>> to
>>> everything really sucks. That's why the record industry was in so much
>>> trouble,
>>> five Britney Spears, Spice Girls doesn't cut it for vary long. Just
>>> because
>>> a new sound comes along, the old sound shouldn't become null and void.
>>> There
>>> should be room for everything. In other words, don't follow the
>>> followers,
>>> and maybe you'll get noticed. If everybody used PT the things would
be
>>> more
>>> boring than they already are!
>>>
>>> The demographic for the record companies is, 13 to 25, so the day you
>>> turn
>>> 26 your null and void??? No music geared to a 26, 36, or 46 year old???
>>> How stupid! Do you really think that a 16 year old would think, yuck,
>>> this
>>> music sucks, this wasn't recorded on a PT system! This music is
>>> unacceptable!
>>> No, they listen to the song!!!!! The song is what sells them. variety
>>> is good when it comes to sound and production. Both sounds should be
>>> acceptable!
>>> But then again this post really wasn't about sound, now was it!
>>>
>>> LaMont, if you like PT better cool. Keep chasing your tail dude, your
>>> sure
>>> to end up in the same place!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Martin Harrington" <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>>Good post, LaMont
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Martin Harrington
>>>>www.lendanear-sound.com
>>>>
>>>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@aameritech.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:443f2d4d$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene,
>>>>> Thank you very much for "speaking: the truth about this whole DAW
>>>>> "nastalgic"
>>>>> sound thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me just state that I've held my tongue for the last 5 years as
I
>>>>> watched
>>>>> the DAW proaudio market "Hyjack" forward thinking , new fedelity, newer
>>>
>>>>> sounding
>>>>> DAW technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> The DAW market has been held "ransom" to the "old' guard Engineers
who
>>>
>>>>> ears
>>>>> are trained to hear "un-natural" de-emphasis", muddied up recordings.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember my very first recording session as a guitar player. The
year
>>>
>>>>> 1982
>>>>> as I remember recording my tracks to 2 ich Otari MTR, MCI mixer..Fine..
>>>
>>>>> The
>>>>> sound was nice, clear just the way I recorded it. But, remember
>>>>> thinking
>>>>> "This does sound like a record" Hummmm... After all the other
>>>>> instruments
>>>>> were push up in the mix ,along with the vocals, stillnot a record
>>>>> sound..
>>>>>
>>>>> In other works, where is the mudied drums? the thudy bass? the muddied
>>>
>>>>> vocals
>>>>> that I heard since I was 4 years old??? where was this sound??
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, we hen attended the mix session, I soon found out that, the magic
>>>
>>>>> was
>>>>> about to occur!! Out comes the Putec(s),the 1176s,LA2(s) GAtes,
>>>>> DBX160..2
>>>>> hours later they had that record sound..Hummm...I started thinkng
>>>>> again,
>>>>> "Man, the sound of 30ips Ampex 456 tape was big, vivid, wide, open,
>>>>> witha
>>>>> ting og high end fidelity..hummmm This was not the record sound..
>>>>>
>>>>> So here we are in 1997-98-99.PAris. The pro Engineers on this site
>>>>> priased
>>>>> it for it's "easy ability" to get that record sound!! wow!!! AND,
we
>>>
>>>>> lawed
>>>>> every oter digital recorder mixer for being to ....Digital...Not warm
>>>
>>>>> enough,
>>>>> not dull , or muddy enough..
>>>>> This Pro Engineer-Producer crowd wined,screemed, bitched, moaned on
>>>>> every
>>>>> forum that the current state of DAW's (namely Protools) mix was bad
as
>>>
>>>>> well
>>>>> as most plugins...Even more, they could not mix ITB(In the Box) unless
>>>
>>>>> they
>>>>> has software emulations of their beloved (OLD) compressors EQ,
>>>>> Verbs.(UAD,MCDSP,
>>>>> Bomb factory)....
>>>>>
>>>>> So, like magic, companies pour massive resouces to reclaim the glorys
>>> days
>>>>> with the birth of the "Vinatage Plug ins). Their purpose was( is) to
>>>>> make
>>>>> your mixes"duller"=warmer, more professional(sit right, al in all..Make
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> mixes sound like 1975!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now in 2006 the "what I call" modern sound of DAWS, being lead by Pro
>>>
>>>>> Tools
>>>>> HD and Nuedno, Sonar there's a shift occuring in the "Holy-Grail "
>>>>> RECORD-SOUND...
>>>>> With Garage bands, rap artist, Rock bands, Soul singers of today having
>>> NO
>>>>> prior knowledge,nor the Formal training to 'get he 1975" sound, we
have
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> High-Fedelity DAW sound in all it'sglory!! ..Yipee!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, the old guard continues to hold it's thumb on the DAW market
and
>>>
>>>>> keep
>>>>> driving manufactures to making more and more vintage plugins. But,
>>>>> every
>>>>> now and then a product like Ozone's Izatope comes along (and others)
>>>>> that
>>>>> challeng the old "muddy up the mix crowd).
>>>>>
>>>>> Today kids are brought onthe Pro_Tools(Mix & HD) sound. They expect
to
>>>
>>>>> hear
>>>>> that sound. they have no idea on how to get a 1975 sound..
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I've said all the above to say: Let's move on!!Yes , the Brian
>>>>> Tankersly(I
>>>>> adore), Nuendo endorsers,vinatge engineers) will continue to push to
>>>>> have
>>>>> all of their 1960,79, & 80 hardware as a plugin and continue to fight
>>> DAW
>>>>> companies to to fix summing buses or event new a new summing buss
>>>>> market
>>>>> segment to ensure they et the 1975 sound with todays DAW.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me,they can have the 1975 sound. I'm moving onward with the cureent
>>>
>>>>> state
>>>>> of very high fifdelity thats afforded me in PT HD And Nuendo..yes,
>>>>> Paris
>>>>> is still in my rig, but I will no longer
>>>>> fight mixes to get the 1975 sound..If the mixes are nice and
>>>>> Brightosund
>>>>> with bottom..So beit..I love the way PT HD sounds with the 192
>>>>> converters.
>>>>> Very nice full-spectrum sound ,with a nice top end. I love Nuendo's
>>>>> nice
>>>>> wide -spacious,clear open , heavey bottom sound with my EMu converters.
>>>
>>>>> Let's
>>>>> evolve past 1975..Pleaseeeeeeeee!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I sold my PT rig when I switched to Paris. I did it at the time
>>>>>>primarily
>>>>>>for the sound of the Paris mix bus. This was before HD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When HD was released, the distinction was far less obvious. HD still
>>>>>>sounds
>>>>>>different from Paris but not awful anymore, just different. Paris still
>>>>> has
>>>>>>more of an analog/tape sound plus the added benefit of sounding more
>>>>>>aggressive
>>>>>>when you push the gain stages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So now the big question! Do I prefer the sound of Paris over other
DAWS
>>>>> because
>>>>>>its actually makes better sounding recordings, or is it because it
is
>>>
>>>>>>closer
>>>>>>to the sound I associate with my favorite albums from the last 30
>>>>>>years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think the truth is closer to the second, and I think this is largely
>>> a
>>>>>>learned behavior, empirical rather than based on any truth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In a recent session at another producer's studio (who will remain
>>>>>>unnamed),
>>>>>>I listened to some pop-rock mixes done on a Paris rig. The sound was
>>>>>>big
>>>>>>and clear and sounded very tape-like. Overall it sounded quite good
and
>>>>> not
>>>>>>at all wimpy. The artist however hated the sound. He played us a number
>>>>> of
>>>>>>recent albums known to have been recorded in PT or similar sounding
>>>>>>DAWS
>>>>>>as examples of what he wanted. This is the sound he knows and more
>>>>>>important
>>>>>>it is the sound he likes! Yikes!! Compressed to a dynamic range of
>>>>>>about
>>>>>>10db and very little sense of depth, space or stereo width.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Music may be universal but we all know it comes with cultural bias.
How
>>>>> many
>>>>>>American teens would choose to listen to a steady diet of microtonal
>>>>>>music?
>>>>>>Might as well serve up a big plate of Haggis... And it not just teens.
>>>
>>>>>>Labels
>>>>>>work the exact same way. If someone has a hit record that sounds
>>>>>>crappy,
>>>>>>all the labels want the same crappy sound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Suddenly I am feeling very old. Fashions change taste changes but I
>>>>>>thought
>>>>>>good sound was forever. Perhaps not so. As a producer who still has
at
>>>
>>>>>>least
>>>>>>one toe in the current market, I need to have some awareness of the
>>>>>>realities
>>>>>>of the market and the "new sound" is the new sound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My personal taste has not changed. For most projects that I foresee
>>>>>>myself
>>>>>>working on, I will continue to use Paris, but just as I have made
>>>>>>decisions
>>>>>>in the past to use SSL consoles rather than Neves to achieve a more
>>>>>>trendy
>>>>>>"Pop" mix, I am now experimenting with ways to capture the "elusive
PT
>>>
>>>>>>sound".
>>>>>>(Insert appropriate emoticon).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Luckily it was reasonably easy to achieve. I recently purchased the
>>>>>>Waves
>>>>>>SSL bundle and running that in Logic can get me very close to the sound
>>>>> of
>>>>>>better sounding PT mixes. So I can still use Paris whenever I like
and
>>> I
>>>>>>can experiment with a mix of the two styles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does all this mean? Nothing other then I understand why some
>>>>>> people
>>>>>>may prefer the way other systems sound and I think that my own
>>>>>>preferences
>>>>>>are biased by many years of listening to records made the old way.
I
>>>>>>don't
>>>>>>see giving up Paris any time soon but I also don't think it's worth
>>>>>>fighting
>>>>>>over if someone else has different opinions on what sounds good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And don't forget.the cyclical nature of fashion almost guarantees that
>>> one
>>>>>>day we will once again be "in".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gene
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>
>
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