Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Audio Confessions
| Audio Confessions [message #86308] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 18:21  |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
might understand.
When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
performance on each take with the playback system.
In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
comes to equipment.
In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
same performance every time, while the piano could.
Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86310 is a reply to message #86308] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 18:56  |
Ted Gerber
Messages: 705
Registered: January 2009
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Senior Member |
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This is where I jump in as a piano Tech and tell you that of course the
differences were minute, since you were using a Yamaha piano to
"measure" your Yamaha Pres. If the O2R96 had been presented with
the more complex tone of a Steinway, or a Bosendorfer, or a Fazioli,
the difference between Pres would have been more apparent.
Actually, I'm joking. I think.
Thanks for the "confession". In fact through the past few years of belonging
to this group, I've come to know those whose sonic priorities align with
mine. You are one of them. I always appreciate your posts.
I tuned for Chick Corea once while he was in Toronto...
Peace,
Ted
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>might understand.
>
>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>performance on each take with the playback system.
>
>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>comes to equipment.
>
>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>
>Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86311 is a reply to message #86308] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 18:58 |
Ted Gerber
Messages: 705
Registered: January 2009
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Senior Member |
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By the way, you refer to both the 02R96, and the 01V96, I'm guessing
you meant only to say the 02R96, right?
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>might understand.
>
>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>performance on each take with the playback system.
>
>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>comes to equipment.
>
>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>
>Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86312 is a reply to message #86308] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 19:01 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Bill, I sometimes work at a studio which uses the Yammy Dm-2000. The studio
has avalons, neves, UADs, but long story short, when we compared those other
pres with the DM-2000, we choose the DM-2000 for the every day go to Pre..
They even put those pres on their portable studios AW2400/AW1600. I got a
few projects form those units and they sound as good anything out there..
Bottom line..it does'nt surprise me..:)
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>might understand.
>
>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>performance on each take with the playback system.
>
>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>comes to equipment.
>
>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>
>Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86314 is a reply to message #86312] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 22:05 |
audioguy_editout_
Messages: 249
Registered: December 2005
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Senior Member |
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Yep, the DM2K pre's are all that... I was quite stunned the
first time I dialed them up... I knew they were supposed to
be good, just wasn't expecting Great! 24 of them in the desk
is just a bonus.
David.
LaMont wrote:
> Bill, I sometimes work at a studio which uses the Yammy Dm-2000. The studio
> has avalons, neves, UADs, but long story short, when we compared those other
> pres with the DM-2000, we choose the DM-2000 for the every day go to Pre..
>
> They even put those pres on their portable studios AW2400/AW1600. I got a
> few projects form those units and they sound as good anything out there..
>
> Bottom line..it does'nt surprise me..:)
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>
>>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>>might understand.
>>
>>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>
>
>>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>
>
>>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>>performance on each take with the playback system.
>>
>>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>
>
>>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>
>
>>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>>comes to equipment.
>>
>>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>
>
>>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>>
>>Does that make me a bad person?
>
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86315 is a reply to message #86314] |
Thu, 07 June 2007 22:20 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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You know, now Deej will have to have one of the DM's, or....
AA
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4668e52d@linux...
> Yep, the DM2K pre's are all that... I was quite stunned the first time I
> dialed them up... I knew they were supposed to be good, just wasn't
> expecting Great! 24 of them in the desk is just a bonus.
>
> David.
>
> LaMont wrote:
>> Bill, I sometimes work at a studio which uses the Yammy Dm-2000. The
>> studio
>> has avalons, neves, UADs, but long story short, when we compared those
>> other
>> pres with the DM-2000, we choose the DM-2000 for the every day go to
>> Pre..
>>
>> They even put those pres on their portable studios AW2400/AW1600. I got a
>> few projects form those units and they sound as good anything out there..
>>
>> Bottom line..it does'nt surprise me..:)
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>>>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>>>might understand.
>>>
>>>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>>>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>>>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>>
>>
>>>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>>
>>
>>>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>>>performance on each take with the playback system.
>>>
>>>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>>
>>
>>>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>>
>>
>>>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>>>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>>>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>>>comes to equipment.
>>>
>>>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD of
>>>female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>>>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>>
>>
>>>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>>>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>>>
>>>Does that make me a bad person?
>>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86329 is a reply to message #86308] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 05:02 |
wireline[15]
Messages: 1
Registered: June 2007
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Junior Member |
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Not at all, Bill. The Yammie pres have kind of a noted love-to-hate thing
going on, and so much is written about how bad they suck by people who have
never heard them or did not know much about stupid minute details such as
gain staging...Truth be known, I have always liked the Yamaha pres, dating
back to the PM1000 days.
Of course, almost anything would sound pretty decent with a pair of C12s...
That said, it is my firm belief that just about any quality preamp is capable
of being the basis for an entire production (we used to call them consoles
<nudge-nudge-wink-wink>) As you know, almost any good board is going to have
at least functinal preamps...
While I've heard Lynn's CD as well, I must confess that non of my choices
were Mackies, but it is after all personal choice.
(Dammit Bill!!!! Just when I was on the brink - ON THE BRINK I tell you
- of selling all three of my mixers, you post this...DAMMIT)
IMO a quality recording starts with a quality preamp...(perhaps this is why
I was let go from a sales gig) and I do not think for one moment the preamp
choice is a critical issue...yes, a couple of flavors is IMO fine, but necessary?
No. I remind many of my collegues of this, that the overwhelmingly vast
majority of recordings the industry uses as sonic references for excellence
had but one brand of preamp...API, Neve, EMI, Quad 8,
Bill, you also know that quality mics and placement of those quality mics
is a much more important and immediately noticable factor in the end result
than a stable full of preamps.
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>might understand.
>
>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>performance on each take with the playback system.
>
>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>comes to equipment.
>
>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>
>Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86331 is a reply to message #86310] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 05:16 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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Chick has a 9' Bose just ten feet away from the Yammy, but it does not
have the playback device on it.
Luckily, as a guitar player I could achieve a similar level of
satisfaction with just a Gibson L5 and Buscarino Cabaret.
Ted Gerber wrote:
> This is where I jump in as a piano Tech and tell you that of course the
> differences were minute, since you were using a Yamaha piano to
> "measure" your Yamaha Pres. If the O2R96 had been presented with
> the more complex tone of a Steinway, or a Bosendorfer, or a Fazioli,
> the difference between Pres would have been more apparent.
>
> Actually, I'm joking. I think.
>
> Thanks for the "confession". In fact through the past few years of belonging
> to this group, I've come to know those whose sonic priorities align with
> mine. You are one of them. I always appreciate your posts.
>
> I tuned for Chick Corea once while he was in Toronto...
>
> Peace,
>
> Ted
>
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>> about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>> might understand.
>>
>> When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>> experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>> compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>
>> grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>
>> the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>> performance on each take with the playback system.
>>
>> In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>
>> the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>
>> really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>> engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>> much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>> comes to equipment.
>>
>> In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>> of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>> However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>
>> the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>> same performance every time, while the piano could.
>>
>> Does that make me a bad person?
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86332 is a reply to message #86312] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 05:23 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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I have a Yamaha i88x, which has the same pre as the DM1000. They are
very nice. Some guys buy them just for the 2 pres, which have insert jacks.
I have found Yamaha products to be a cut above generally, sort of the
way Toyota is a little higher quality than the rest of the Nipponese
imports.
LaMont wrote:
> Bill, I sometimes work at a studio which uses the Yammy Dm-2000. The studio
> has avalons, neves, UADs, but long story short, when we compared those other
> pres with the DM-2000, we choose the DM-2000 for the every day go to Pre..
>
> They even put those pres on their portable studios AW2400/AW1600. I got a
> few projects form those units and they sound as good anything out there..
>
> Bottom line..it does'nt surprise me..:)
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>> about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>> might understand.
>>
>> When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>> experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>> compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>
>> grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>
>> the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>> performance on each take with the playback system.
>>
>> In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>
>> the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>
>> really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>> engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>> much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>> comes to equipment.
>>
>> In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>> of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>> However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>
>> the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>> same performance every time, while the piano could.
>>
>> Does that make me a bad person?
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86336 is a reply to message #86308] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 07:19 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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The Lynn Fuston CD was a real eye opener to me. I'm an empiricist in pretty
much all things, including audio issues. Also, I'm not anywhere near 'golden
ears' but I can usually tell which string is out of tune on the other guy's
guitar (very useful at live gigs, 'Hey Russ, your B is flat') and can hear
better than any civilian. On the Fuston CD I could barely tell any difference
at all. I still own a couple of nice preamps, but if I had 16 channels of
Syteks ( > $200 per preamp) I'd be pleased as punch.
TCB
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>might understand.
>
>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>performance on each take with the playback system.
>
>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>comes to equipment.
>
>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>
>Does that make me a bad person?
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86349 is a reply to message #86329] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 10:36 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"wireline" <spammersDIAF@droolingdog.gov> wrote:
>
>Not at all, Bill. The Yammie pres have kind of a noted love-to-hate thing
>going on, and so much is written about how bad they suck by people who have
>never heard them or did not know much about stupid minute details such as
>gain staging...Truth be known, I have always liked the Yamaha pres, dating
>back to the PM1000 days.
Personally, I've always found Yammy pre's to be a bit lacking in
the headroom area... you get about 20db of boost before you
start encroaching on the crackle zone. But then I've never used
the DM boards, so maybe they're better.
>Of course, almost anything would sound pretty decent with a pair of C12s...
Gear snob. :)
>IMO a quality recording starts with a quality preamp...(perhaps this is
why
>I was let go from a sales gig) and I do not think for one moment the preamp
>choice is a critical issue...yes, a couple of flavors is IMO fine, but necessary?
Not necessary, but nice to have... you start mixing & matching
the right mics with the right pres (and by "right", I don't
necessarily mean super high-end, I mean "ones that compliment
each other") and you'll find yourself doing less EQ-ing, things
stand apart & isolate better, it's almost like you're pre-mixing
before you're even mixing.
Neil
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86354 is a reply to message #86349] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 12:47 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Not necessary, but nice to have... you start mixing & matching
the right mics with the right pres (and by "right", I don't
necessarily mean super high-end, I mean "ones that compliment
each other") and you'll find yourself doing less EQ-ing, things
stand apart & isolate better, it's almost like you're pre-mixing
before you're even mixing."
I totally agree. Certain gear combinations work better than others.
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"wireline" <spammersDIAF@droolingdog.gov> wrote:
>>
>>Not at all, Bill. The Yammie pres have kind of a noted love-to-hate thing
>>going on, and so much is written about how bad they suck by people who
have
>>never heard them or did not know much about stupid minute details such
as
>>gain staging...Truth be known, I have always liked the Yamaha pres, dating
>>back to the PM1000 days.
>
>Personally, I've always found Yammy pre's to be a bit lacking in
>the headroom area... you get about 20db of boost before you
>start encroaching on the crackle zone. But then I've never used
>the DM boards, so maybe they're better.
>
>>Of course, almost anything would sound pretty decent with a pair of C12s...
>
>Gear snob. :)
>
>>IMO a quality recording starts with a quality preamp...(perhaps this is
>why
>>I was let go from a sales gig) and I do not think for one moment the preamp
>>choice is a critical issue...yes, a couple of flavors is IMO fine, but
necessary?
>
>Not necessary, but nice to have... you start mixing & matching
>the right mics with the right pres (and by "right", I don't
>necessarily mean super high-end, I mean "ones that compliment
>each other") and you'll find yourself doing less EQ-ing, things
>stand apart & isolate better, it's almost like you're pre-mixing
>before you're even mixing.
>
>Neil
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86355 is a reply to message #86349] |
Fri, 08 June 2007 13:07 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
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"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using one of
his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix them
together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best, i.e.
most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle you sold
me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a whole
new world out there.
TCB
>Not necessary, but nice to have... you start mixing & matching
>the right mics with the right pres (and by "right", I don't
>necessarily mean super high-end, I mean "ones that compliment
>each other") and you'll find yourself doing less EQ-ing, things
>stand apart & isolate better, it's almost like you're pre-mixing
>before you're even mixing.
>
>Neil
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86379 is a reply to message #86356] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 05:40 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
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"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
>>very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using one
>of
>>his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix them
>>together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best, i.e.
>>most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle you
>sold
>>me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a whole
>>new world out there.
>
>Yup, agreed. I know I posted this tune before, but for the
>purposes of this topic, here it is again:
>The only tracks that have any EQ on them are the toms & the snare
>& one guitar pass where I rolled off a little 100hz. Everything
>else is simply tonal coloration imparted by the particular
>combination of mics & pre's on the source.
>
> http://www.saqqararecords.com/MiscAudio/SedationFinalMixMP3. mp3
>
>May not be your cup 'o tea musically, but it's a perfect example
>of what I'm talking about.
Wow, those are some _thick_ sounding geetars. Very impressive work.
TCB
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86381 is a reply to message #86379] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 06:11 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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Yeah, Baby, wide, fat and deep guitar layers. It pushes the bass track
right down to the floor. Also it seems to make the bass sound late.
Back when I played lots of rock I had this fantasy of a section of, say,
10 guitarists layering to get a live sound like this. Problem is the
conductor would only last a few shows before he would be too deaf to
continue.
TCB wrote:
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>> Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
>>> very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using one
>> of
>>> his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix them
>>> together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best, i.e.
>>> most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle you
>> sold
>>> me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a whole
>>> new world out there.
>> Yup, agreed. I know I posted this tune before, but for the
>> purposes of this topic, here it is again:
>> The only tracks that have any EQ on them are the toms & the snare
>> & one guitar pass where I rolled off a little 100hz. Everything
>> else is simply tonal coloration imparted by the particular
>> combination of mics & pre's on the source.
>>
>> http://www.saqqararecords.com/MiscAudio/SedationFinalMixMP3. mp3
>>
>> May not be your cup 'o tea musically, but it's a perfect example
>> of what I'm talking about.
>
> Wow, those are some _thick_ sounding geetars. Very impressive work.
>
> TCB
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86382 is a reply to message #86381] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 08:18 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Yeah, Baby, wide, fat and deep guitar layers. It pushes the
>bass track right down to the floor. Also it seems to make the
>bass sound late.
Are your speakers out of phase or some wierd stuff like that?
The bass sounds great on every system I've played this on, and
in fact it's even been on radio here (the band opened for
Flyleaf at the KLAQ Memorial Day Balloonfest, and the station
had them on for an interview & played a couple of their tunes)
& I was cringing the first time they wee getting ready to spin
it, just because it's not mastered yet and I had no idea how it
would come across over the air... one measure into the song &
the cringe went away - sounded great.
I think you're hearing more bass than than you think - IOW,
less of that bottom end is coming from the guitars than you may
realize... the bass has a little drive on it, as well, so that
may have something to do with your perception of what's bass &
what's not. Feel free to import the mp3 into your DAW & flip
the phase on one channel so that the bass drops out completely
(the two bass tracks are both dead-center-panned, so you'll
definitely lose all of it.), and that way you can see what I'm
talkng about... you'll retain most of the rhythm guitar tracks
since there's some panning going on on all of them, IIRC.
Here, you can use this free plugin to phase-flip one channel if
you don't want to have to bother splitting the stereo file:
http://www.braindoc.de/vst/ChannelTool.zip
>Back when I played lots of rock I had this fantasy of a
>section of, say, 10 guitarists layering to get a live sound
>like this. Problem is the conductor would only last a few
>shows before he would be too deaf to continue.
You don't need a lot of volume to get this effect, just a lot
of layers of different textures. We used two (or was it three -
I'd have to check the files) different amps, four different
mics, and three flavors of preamps. Every chorded pass was
mic'ed in dual-mono, then doubled with a different amp/mics,
and pres, and every single note or accent pass (like the octave
hits) was doubled with a different mic & pre. In fact, when
tracking stuff like this, I like to use just enough volume to
get the speakers moving - that way your tones can still stay
articulate as you layer tracks; as opposed to if the amps are
blasting at "11", and then everything just turns into a big
pile of overdistorted fizz.
Neil
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>> Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
>>>> very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using
one
>>> of
>>>> his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix
them
>>>> together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best,
i.e.
>>>> most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle
you
>>> sold
>>>> me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a
whole
>>>> new world out there.
>>> Yup, agreed. I know I posted this tune before, but for the
>>> purposes of this topic, here it is again:
>>> The only tracks that have any EQ on them are the toms & the snare
>>> & one guitar pass where I rolled off a little 100hz. Everything
>>> else is simply tonal coloration imparted by the particular
>>> combination of mics & pre's on the source.
>>>
>>> http://www.saqqararecords.com/MiscAudio/SedationFinalMixMP3. mp3
>>>
>>> May not be your cup 'o tea musically, but it's a perfect example
>>> of what I'm talking about.
>>
>> Wow, those are some _thick_ sounding geetars. Very impressive work.
>>
>> TCB
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86383 is a reply to message #86379] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 08:21 |
Nil
Messages: 245
Registered: March 2007
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Senior Member |
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"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
>>>very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using one
>>of
>>>his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix
them
>>>together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best, i.e.
>>>most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle you
>>sold
>>>me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a whole
>>>new world out there.
>>
>>Yup, agreed. I know I posted this tune before, but for the
>>purposes of this topic, here it is again:
>>The only tracks that have any EQ on them are the toms & the snare
>>& one guitar pass where I rolled off a little 100hz. Everything
>>else is simply tonal coloration imparted by the particular
>>combination of mics & pre's on the source.
>>
>> http://www.saqqararecords.com/MiscAudio/SedationFinalMixMP3. mp3
>>
>>May not be your cup 'o tea musically, but it's a perfect example
>>of what I'm talking about.
>
>Wow, those are some _thick_ sounding geetars. Very impressive work.
Thanks - I may have something else to post tonight or tomorrow.
Different band this time, but some interesting sonic textures
you guys might like. Trying to get some more vocals & maybe
guitars knocked out today.
Neil
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86389 is a reply to message #86382] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 12:28 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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Neil wrote:
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, Baby, wide, fat and deep guitar layers. It pushes the
>> bass track right down to the floor. Also it seems to make the
>> bass sound late.
>
> Are your speakers out of phase or some wierd stuff like that?
> The bass sounds great on every system I've played this on, and
> in fact it's even been on radio here (the band opened for
> Flyleaf at the KLAQ Memorial Day Balloonfest, and the station
> had them on for an interview & played a couple of their tunes)
> & I was cringing the first time they wee getting ready to spin
> it, just because it's not mastered yet and I had no idea how it
> would come across over the air... one measure into the song &
> the cringe went away - sounded great.
Hey, Neil, I wasn't knocking it! The tracks sound awesome. I was just
commenting on the amount of seperation between the bass and the guitars,
like a layer of oil and water, kind of. I LIKED the effect and the
degree of seperation. It is impressive how you did it.
Do you really imagine *I* might not hear if my speakers are out of phase?
>
> I think you're hearing more bass than than you think - IOW,
> less of that bottom end is coming from the guitars than you may
> realize... the bass has a little drive on it, as well, so that
> may have something to do with your perception of what's bass &
> what's not. Feel free to import the mp3 into your DAW & flip
> the phase on one channel so that the bass drops out completely
> (the two bass tracks are both dead-center-panned, so you'll
> definitely lose all of it.), and that way you can see what I'm
> talkng about... you'll retain most of the rhythm guitar tracks
> since there's some panning going on on all of them, IIRC.
> Here, you can use this free plugin to phase-flip one channel if
> you don't want to have to bother splitting the stereo file:
>
> http://www.braindoc.de/vst/ChannelTool.zip
>
>
>> Back when I played lots of rock I had this fantasy of a
>> section of, say, 10 guitarists layering to get a live sound
>> like this. Problem is the conductor would only last a few
>> shows before he would be too deaf to continue.
>
> You don't need a lot of volume to get this effect, just a lot
> of layers of different textures. We used two (or was it three -
> I'd have to check the files) different amps, four different
> mics, and three flavors of preamps. Every chorded pass was
> mic'ed in dual-mono, then doubled with a different amp/mics,
> and pres, and every single note or accent pass (like the octave
> hits) was doubled with a different mic & pre. In fact, when
> tracking stuff like this, I like to use just enough volume to
> get the speakers moving - that way your tones can still stay
> articulate as you layer tracks; as opposed to if the amps are
> blasting at "11", and then everything just turns into a big
> pile of overdistorted fizz.
I actually never track at much volume unless I'm trying for feedback or
some room overload effect. I was talking about in a live setting. Of
course I am actually one of the more demure guitar players volume-wise.
I prefer to let the engineer have control of the mix. BTW, in my musical
circles I'm known for having an exquisite tone - warm, smooth, creamy
and delicious w/ just a hint of jaunty strut.
>
> Neil
>
>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>> Steve Albini, probably my favorite engineer after Rudy van Gelder, takes
>>>>> very much this approach. As I've started tracking guitars I'm using
> one
>>>> of
>>>>> his tricks which is to put a bright and a dark mic on the cab and mix
> them
>>>>> together before I start to EQ. Works very nicely. The current best,
> i.e.
>>>>> most versatile, combo seems to be the SE ribbon and the Baby Bottle
> you
>>>> sold
>>>>> me. Either sounds pretty damn good on its own but together there's a
> whole
>>>>> new world out there.
>>>> Yup, agreed. I know I posted this tune before, but for the
>>>> purposes of this topic, here it is again:
>>>> The only tracks that have any EQ on them are the toms & the snare
>>>> & one guitar pass where I rolled off a little 100hz. Everything
>>>> else is simply tonal coloration imparted by the particular
>>>> combination of mics & pre's on the source.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.saqqararecords.com/MiscAudio/SedationFinalMixMP3. mp3
>>>>
>>>> May not be your cup 'o tea musically, but it's a perfect example
>>>> of what I'm talking about.
>>> Wow, those are some _thick_ sounding geetars. Very impressive work.
>>>
>>> TCB
>
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| Re: Audio Confessions [message #86529 is a reply to message #86315] |
Tue, 12 June 2007 22:25 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
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I'm playing catchup. Haven't had DSL since last Thursday. I have almost died
a couple of times when watching these sell for around 6k on EBay.
;o)
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message
news:4668e8d6@linux...
> You know, now Deej will have to have one of the DM's, or....
>
> AA
>
>
> "Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:4668e52d@linux...
>> Yep, the DM2K pre's are all that... I was quite stunned the first time I
>> dialed them up... I knew they were supposed to be good, just wasn't
>> expecting Great! 24 of them in the desk is just a bonus.
>>
>> David.
>>
>> LaMont wrote:
>>> Bill, I sometimes work at a studio which uses the Yammy Dm-2000. The
>>> studio
>>> has avalons, neves, UADs, but long story short, when we compared those
>>> other
>>> pres with the DM-2000, we choose the DM-2000 for the every day go to
>>> Pre..
>>>
>>> They even put those pres on their portable studios AW2400/AW1600. I got
>>> a
>>> few projects form those units and they sound as good anything out
>>> there..
>>>
>>> Bottom line..it does'nt surprise me..:)
>>>
>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I've tried to put these incident behind me, but I can't seem to forget
>>>>about them and I have to come clean it to the only people I know who
>>>>might understand.
>>>>
>>>>When I worked as Chick Corea's studio manager we did a crazy little
>>>>experiment. We decided to see how good the Yamaha 02R96 mic pres are
>>>>compared to pristine vintage Neve 1073 modules. We used a 9 foot Yamaha
>>>
>>>
>>>>grand with Yamaha's mechanical recording/playback system (can't remember
>>>
>>>
>>>>the name of it) into 2 AKG C12s. We were able to get the exact same
>>>>performance on each take with the playback system.
>>>>
>>>>In the end, we could hear that the Neve was ever so slightly warmer than
>>>
>>>
>>>>the 01v96, but we were shocked at how unremarkable the difference was -
>>>
>>>
>>>>really shocked. Bernie Kirsh, a true golden ears, and a world famous
>>>>engineer who has done virtually all of chick's records could not hear
>>>>much difference either, and I gotta tell you he is a real snob when it
>>>>comes to equipment.
>>>>
>>>>In a similar vein, when I listened to the first Lynn Fuston mic pre CD
>>>>of female vox, I blindly picked the Mackie mic pre as my 3rd favorite.
>>>>However I must say that that comparo is not as accurate as the one with
>>>
>>>
>>>>the piano because despite how good she was, she could not do the exact
>>>>same performance every time, while the piano could.
>>>>
>>>>Does that make me a bad person?
>>>
>
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