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LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105283] Tue, 04 May 2010 23:46 Go to next message
DanielWork is currently offline  DanielWork   UNITED STATES
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Junior Member
I am hoping other may have the need for, and/or someone has already made the code/drivers to use a PARIS hardware controller on say LOGIC PRO on a MAC.

The PARIS controllers are great, and I'd love to be able to use them as I sadly move onto newer recording systems.

thanks

daniel@smileynote.com
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105284 is a reply to message #105283] Wed, 05 May 2010 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Don't get your hopes up. Especially on a Mac platform. There are few stars that need to align in order to make this possible:
1) A basic EDS1000 driver needs to be written for OS-X
2) The C16 control surface protocol needs to be wrapped to a control surface protocol that Logic understands.

The problem is further compounded by:
1) A lack of Paris development on the Mac side, which in a large part is due to the inability of the paris app to run on OS-X. I'm sure that Mike Audet has enough on his plate already on the Windows side.
2) Protocols such as the Mackie HUI are not public domain, unfortunately and would need to be reverse engineered.


Cheers

Kris
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105285 is a reply to message #105284] Wed, 05 May 2010 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DanielWork is currently offline  DanielWork   UNITED STATES
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
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thanks so much for the intelligent answer.

I sure hate to see those cool controllers go to waste.

Any MAC programmers up for a challenge?

daniel
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105286 is a reply to message #105285] Wed, 05 May 2010 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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The news as far as I understand it: Doug Wellington did investigations into the OSX side of PARIS years back and had some good initial progress. If I'm recalling our conversation correctly he told me that he'd ported the PSCL (part of the driver structure) to OSX with no problem; he also built a "black box" which went inline between the C16 and the EDS card and eavesdropped on the signals it was sending. As far as I know, no deal-breakers were found - it was just a question of Doug moving on to other projects (amongst them the building of some extremely cool looking TR808 clones).

Although this is unlikely to be a deal-breaker as well, it's good to bear in mind that there's a hardware issue that would need to be addressed by the end-user too. Macs with PARIS-compatible PCI slots haven't been in production for the better part of a decade, so to make this feasible you'd have to put the EDS cards in an expansion chassis (Magma, Virtuavia).

On the PC side there are positive indicators. Mike Audet has investigated the messages the C16 sends and says they're a form of MIDI with higher resolution (1024 steps instead of 127 perhaps?) and it's very feasible to turn them into MIDI controllers (ie usable by other apps) via revamped PARIS drivers. If a Mac OSX coder stepped up to the plate I'm certain Mike would be happy to share insights, he's very supportive of PARIS development.

What would be *really* cool (and I'm guessing possibly fairly practical) would be to take the schematics for Doug's "black box", build a "C16 > MIDI" translator into it and stick a "MIDI Out" port in the side of it. Such a box could be produced at low cost - it leverages insights already gained in the course of other research, and it doesn't need to be "pretty" since it's an "under the desk" box anyway. It might even have multiple Ethernet jacks to accommodate those with multiple C16s and EDS cards (and each C16's output being assignable to a discrete MIDI channel). That would allow the recycling of potentially hundreds of C16s back into use with other DAWs. And if it could be flash or sysex upgradable as more was discovered, it'd be bonus. That'd be so far out of my own skillset it's not even funny, but it'd be a interesting angle on the whole C16 thing - platform independent too.


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Wed, 05 May 2010 11:59]

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Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105287 is a reply to message #105286] Wed, 05 May 2010 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DanielWork is currently offline  DanielWork   UNITED STATES
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
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very interesting, and some cool insights?

As the C16 controller is ETHERNET based, and sounds like it is sending MIDI info,
and as the MAC (and other platforms) use USB midi,
it would seem the hat trick is to make a OS X Driver that communicate the MIDI DATA via a Ethernet connection on the MAC, thereby eliminating the need for a EDS card.

The controller would plug straight into a Ethernet connection, and off we go???
This would be a solution for PC users also?

thanks
daniel
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105288 is a reply to message #105287] Wed, 05 May 2010 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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A pass-through "black box" would eliminate the need for an EDS. You'd cable from the C16 to the box and then MIDI from there to a MIDI interface. No need to connect the Ethernet "thru" connector to an EDS if you didn't have one.

If you went the Ethernet way, you'd have to deal with how the messages got received in the target computer. That means drivers - and making them work with different OS and platforms.

On the other hand, if it's simply delivered in MIDI form from the git-go, you're done. It'd be 100% driverless and platform-independent. You get your MIDI messages done right, once, and then a million apps can read MIDI messages showing up at an input and translate it into whatever else you like. It's future-proofed at that point, it'd literally be valid until the day MIDI disappears. You'd never see, for example, a Mac user having to deal with their support being dropped (which I have no doubt would be an incredibly refreshing proposition for PARIS' long-suffering Mac users).

Doug did mention it wasn't quite as simple as that - not all the C16's messages are understood, and there'd definitely be lots of work to do. But it'd be a pretty cool angle to pursue.


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Wed, 05 May 2010 12:22]

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Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105289 is a reply to message #105288] Wed, 05 May 2010 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DanielWork is currently offline  DanielWork   UNITED STATES
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Junior Member
thanks, now all we need is someone with the drive and time to take it on?

any takers?????

thanks much

daniel
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105290 is a reply to message #105289] Wed, 05 May 2010 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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LOL. Yep, there's the rub. Good ideas are cheap, but execution of them - not so much. Someone would actually have to take it on. I don't have a fraction of the skillsets myself, or I'd be tempted just to have one set of controllers to manage the various DAWs at work in my studio.

If someone does some day I'll happily gather info and do legwork and do whatever else I can to support it.

After all - most of this stuff is now easily within reach of reasonably diligent home tinkerers. The only new ground would be parsing the C16's messages - after that, one imagines it should possible to translate them.

http://www.audiomulch.com/midipic/
http://makezine.com/07/primer/
http://www.musicianstechcentral.com/midihard.html#proj

- K


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Wed, 05 May 2010 12:46]

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Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105358 is a reply to message #105290] Sun, 20 June 2010 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC11   CANADA
Messages: 32
Registered: March 2009
Member
Hey Kerry,

I know we've had this conversation before, but what was the deal again with Analog X's paris midi app? It just controlled the mini mixer via midi? Was that able to be connected to a Mackie Control or anything like that?

From what I remember people saying, it didn't work so well, but I don't remember any details, and don't really know anyone who used it..

I would love to use my dxb to control Paris for mixing..

Cheers,

TC
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105359 is a reply to message #105358] Sun, 20 June 2010 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Johnny Blaze is currently offline  Johnny Blaze   UNITED STATES
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Registered: October 2007
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Hey everyone. I am glad the forum is still up and running. I'm still using Paris to track and mix. But I recently upgraded and bought a Apple All-In-One machine with 4GB of ram and a Intel Duo Core chip. I got it used for $450.00 and I bought a used Logic pro 9 from a friend for $200.00.

Anyways, my hope is to track in Paris and dump all the tracks into Logic Pro 9. Is there a quick way to dump these tracks into Logic Pro 9? Also the webpage parisfaqs is no longer working to download the pafwavconverter.exe tool. If anyone here has that tool, I may have to use that. Does that tool do batch converting?

I am wondering if I have 16 tracks and I disc bounce them two at a time to 24bit .paf files if I can just convert the resulting tracks using that pafwavconverter into 24 bit wav files? Would I be able to do that? Or does this tool convert 24bit paf files to 16bit wav? I want to keep them in 24bit wav that is why I am asking.

Anyways, sorry for the rambling, but it's related to using Logic Pro and Paris side by side. I am not ready to give up Paris. I imagine I will do all my tracking and punch ins using Paris and then do mix down with Logic because Logic just has great sounding plugins.

So if anyone here knows of the simplest way to work with both of these DAW's side by side let me know. Also if you can point me to the pafwavconverter.exe file I could definitely use that.


Regards,

Johnny
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105360 is a reply to message #105359] Sun, 20 June 2010 19:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC11   CANADA
Messages: 32
Registered: March 2009
Member
You can certainly use pafwav to do what you need, converting to 24 bit..

I'm working the opposite way of you. I do all my tracking in logic, and mixing in Paris.

I've got the 2 systems synced via MTC so I can automate mixes, and in Logic I've set up an aggregate audio device consisiting of a motu 2408 mkii with a 424 pcie card, and an aes16e with a Lynx aurora 16 connected. Channels are sent to Paris from Logic at unity via the 3 adat banks on the 2408, into 3 Mec adat cards (in 2 mecs).. If I picked up another 2408mkii (which are dirt cheap on ebay) I could do 48 tracks to Paris via lightpipe if I wanted to get really crazy.

Maybe not the simplest way, but it works for me, and I think Paris' strenght is mixing and the sound it imparts, so that's what I want to exploit. This way I'm still using all my plugins and outboard in logic.

Now if I could just use a controller with Paris other than the C16, it would be almost perfect..
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105361 is a reply to message #105359] Wed, 23 June 2010 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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Quote:
Anyways, my hope is to track in Paris and dump all the tracks into Logic Pro 9. Is there a quick way to dump these tracks into Logic Pro 9?



Yes, there's a brand new and absoulutely *killer* option to pull that off nowadays. Thanks to the recent hard work of developer Michael Rooney, AATranslator (the $59 standard version will suffice) can now correctly import PARIS OMFs. This means they're finally usable for the purpose they were originally designed for. It's PC only, but it doesn't really need much for resources so I'm guessing you could probably run it in an emulator like Virtual PC instead of having to reboot into a Win OS through BootCamp etc.

After your tracking/overdubbing in PARIS, go to the "File" menu in PARIS and hit "export as OMF" (should only take a few seconds). Open AAT and have it translate the PARIS OMF into OpenTL which Logic should be able to import fine.

All tracks and regions from your PARIS session will now import perfectly, and properly labeled. You don't have to muck about with frame rates either - PARIS OMFs take their timing reference from the number of samples since song start, so all audio regions will land in the sample-accurate positions in which they were tracked without any need for reference to a frame rate (made perfect sense when I first discovered it did it this way - after all, what the heck should a "frame of film" have to do with sending a bunch of audio tracks between two DAWs?).

Better still - as you can see from their site you can use AAT to translate your OMFs to a ton of other formats as well, so you can now send your PARIS tracking sessions out already converted into Reaper, Cubase, Nuendo or a ton of other formats for the convenience of clients, collaborators, mixers or remixers. If you get in the habit of exporting all your PARIS sessions as OMF as soon as you're done, there's a peace-of-mind benefit too - the OMFs make great archival versions of the performances - you won't have to worry about getting completely hosed by PARIS hardware or software failure, or by a corrupted PPJ leaving you with a folder full of unsyncable PAF punch-ins.

There are a few minor quirks - you have to pay slightly closer attention to what you name things in PARIS. This is a PARIS issue, not an AAT bug - PARIS has no problem letting you name, say, an audio region or track with characters that it later chokes on while exporting an OMF (simple alphanumeric characters are fine - things like slashes and periods seem to give it problems). Also your fades or crossfades will have the right positions and lengths but their *type* will default to "linear" - for most situations a trivial irritant.

This app completely changed my PARIS workflow.


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Wed, 23 June 2010 14:50]

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Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105417 is a reply to message #105361] Thu, 15 July 2010 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Johnny Blaze is currently offline  Johnny Blaze   UNITED STATES
Messages: 18
Registered: October 2007
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Thanks for this info. It was very informative. I do not have the v3.0 of Paris which has this export option. I am running Paris on WinXP, but I don't believe it is v3.0 which has the export as OMF option. I will check tonight when I get into the studio. If the version I am running on WinXP does not have this option, then how difficult is it to export all my recordings using an ADAT lightpipe from Paris to Logic 9? I just bought the MOTU Mk2 which has an ADAT lightpipe input. I assume I can hook this directly to my Paris ADAT I/O module and send 8 tracks out of PARIS at a time into Logic 9?

Or am I not able to do that? And will the 24 bit 48khz recording in paris stay at 24 bit 48khz in Logic 9 if I export 8 tracks at a time this way?

Johnny
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105418 is a reply to message #105361] Thu, 15 July 2010 15:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Johnny Blaze is currently offline  Johnny Blaze   UNITED STATES
Messages: 18
Registered: October 2007
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Great response! Thanks for the info Kerry!

I am running Paris on WinXP but I believe its not the final v3.0 which has this additional feature. i think i have v2.2 with a driver upgrade that gave me access to winxp. So i do not believe I have the option to export as OMF files.

How about if I want to send 8 tracks out at a time into an ADAT lightpipe? I bought the MOTU Mk2 for my Apple Logic 9 System, and it has an ADAT Light Pipe. I also have a Mec Module on Paris with ADAT I/O card. Can I send ADAT output from Paris to Input on the MOTU Mk2 and will that allow me to retain 24bit 48khz files? I assume I will only be able to send 8 tracks at a time this way. Is this another solution? Would I need to use a time code link or just use lightpipe only?


Johnny
Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105419 is a reply to message #105418] Thu, 15 July 2010 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC11   CANADA
Messages: 32
Registered: March 2009
Member
You should have no problem sending via lightpipe that way. The Motu 2408 MKII can do up to 24 channels of adat at a time, so the limitation for simultaneous tracks just depends on how many adat cards and mecs you have.

If you are doing multiple passes with a single card, you'll probably want to sync the two systems up via mtc..

That's a different can of worms, as you might need some specific hardware to get tight sync between the two. My experience is limited to the Unitor 8 with Logic (usb), and previously the Opcode studio64 XTC (mine was serial port) with Paris/WinXP synced to other systems (pro tools etc). (The opcode was great back in the day, as I think it also had an adat sync port on it that you could use with the mec adat cards..)

Trying to get tight sync with logic and Paris with standard midi interfaces (without a master mtc gen) is sometimes a crapshoot (which has more to do with logic I think..)

[Updated on: Thu, 15 July 2010 16:01]

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Re: LOGIC PRO Drivers for PARIS Controllers? [message #105424 is a reply to message #105419] Mon, 19 July 2010 14:40 Go to previous message
Johnny Blaze is currently offline  Johnny Blaze   UNITED STATES
Messages: 18
Registered: October 2007
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Do you know if the MOTU mk2 has a MTC option on it? What kind of cable do I buy to sync the Ensoniq Paris MEC module with the MOTU Mk2 ?

Johnny
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