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Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105907] Tue, 04 January 2011 13:33 Go to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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So - amidst all the well known limitations of the Paris architecture - 16 tracks per submix; no automatic delay compensation; 48K max sample rate; no native plugins on Master buss etc etc, the thing that I struggle with the most is related to the last item, namely how to handle busses in Paris, specifically drum busses. Most other tracks I want to group and process together can be handled as stereo tracks or by dropping the same eq/compressor plugin as a Native insert across the tracks in question, while simultaneously linking them in the "groups" window with relative fader, or inverse pan etc.

Drums are different though, with some of the tracks needing to be eq'd/comp'd separately and others needing to be grouped and processed together. With any other modern DAW now, this is easy. With Paris it isn't. DFrakencopter's work with Senderella looked promising last Spring (sending tracks to a Native submix for processing in "real time"), but in the end, it didn't work out.

Wondering how folks are doing it in Paris...

Right now, I'm generally approximating everything I want to do to the individual tracks, (drum replacement, eq/comp etc) then bouncing those tracks down to L/R and reinserting that unto the playing field to be processed as a group (verbs eq compression).

The problem of course, is that if something needs further tweaking then I have to step backwards and work on the individual tracks in question and re-bounce. Big PITA.

What do you folks do? Is there another way that's simpler?

Ted
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105909 is a reply to message #105907] Tue, 04 January 2011 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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Off the top of my head

I've sent the drums through the FX sends in stereo or dual mono

I've used Chucks in / out plugs to send all the desired drum tracks to 2 new tracks

I've used Senderella within an active sub mix like Chucks plugs - even tried a quicky across submixes and into native submixes with some success but didn't pursue it as life got in the way

I've flown them out of Paris into Reaper on another rig, processed them then flew them back to where ever I pleased inside Paris

And I've rendered a stereo drum stem

hope that's what you were looking for

[Updated on: Tue, 04 January 2011 15:49]

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Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105911 is a reply to message #105909] Tue, 04 January 2011 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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dnafe wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 18:47
Off the top of my head

I've sent the drums through the FX sends in stereo or dual mono

You mean to an external box(es)?

I've used Chucks in / out plugs to send all the desired drum tracks to 2 new tracks

What is this? Can you process in real time?

I've used Senderella within an active sub mix like Chucks plugs - even tried a quicky across submixes and into native submixes with some success but didn't pursue it as life got in the way

Roger

I've flown them out of Paris into Reaper on another rig, processed them then flew them back to where ever I pleased inside Paris

Gotcha

And I've rendered a stereo drum stem


hope that's what you were looking for

Thanks




Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105912 is a reply to message #105911] Wed, 05 January 2011 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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Chucks EDS line in / out inserts were something like senderella...insert a line out into a track, select a channel to send on then on an empty track insert a line in and select the same channel to receive on and you're done - bussing a track across to another track inside a submix.

Make sense?

edit - I forgot to say that although my FX routing is done internally I believe DJ used to route stuff via the FX sends to external dynamic processors and FX all the time - I think I still have his patch bay layout for that, let me see if I can find it and post it here and on the Wiki site

[Updated on: Wed, 05 January 2011 04:20]

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Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105916 is a reply to message #105912] Wed, 05 January 2011 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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Thanks Don -

Ummm - I've searched everywhere and can not find this Line In / Line Out plug. Where can I find it to put it to use?

Ted
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105920 is a reply to message #105907] Wed, 05 January 2011 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
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Ted Gerber wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 13:33
DFrakencopter's work with Senderella looked promising last Spring (sending tracks to a Native submix for processing in "real time"), but in the end, it didn't work out.



It worked for me...given some caveats.
(1) My 'Paris Senderella' VST needs to be wrapped to Direct-X with FXpansions wrapper.
(2) The silence dummy tracks for the returns should be 24 bits and should start at time zero
(3) The 'now line' on the tracks with sends must not cross any object start/end handles (i.e. no edits), or you'll get time sync issues. Render to avoid this...
(4) Paris' latency changes from submix to submix. I detailed the latency values in the documentation.

What problem were you having?

I think Don Nafe got it to work too, but he dropped it because it required Direct-X and that made start-up pretty slow as Paris scans all the plugins.

Cheers

Kris
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105923 is a reply to message #105920] Wed, 05 January 2011 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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OK

Had a chat with Don tonight who straightened me out. Looks like Senderella is the best option.

TG
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105924 is a reply to message #105923] Thu, 06 January 2011 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
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Ted, make sure you use the version that I wrote, which is detailed in the post here:

http://kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/index.php?t=msg&got o=105273

There's a link there for the download, and the manual (which explains the limitations of using it with Paris).

The original senderella will work, but it's a pain to use on stereo tracks (you need to use two mono sends), and uses volume in % so it's pretty non-linear in response.

My version has a pan control which mirrors Paris' weird pan law, and uses volume levels in dB. Oh, and it also has delay compensation on the sends (it will add delay to the send paths to compensate for latency inducing plugins on the returns...albeit not automatically).

I tended to use it more within a single submix (e.g. have some FX returns on channels 15 & 16), as opposed to bussing out to a native submix.

Good luck

Cheers

Kris
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105925 is a reply to message #105924] Thu, 06 January 2011 06:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
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Oh, and here's a copy of the bit of the manual explaining the limitations of Paris-Senderella:

Gottcha's (Tricks & Traps)

Over the course of the development of this plugin I've learned a fair bit about how to get it to work within PARIS, and here are my tips:

1) Only use Paris-Senderella on tracks that have been rendered or bounced, and that have no edit handles other than at the start and end. If Paris-Senderella encounters a start/end handle the latency will become unpredictable and could go as high as 90 ms. Sorry, but no crossfades either...

2) Channel 1 on submix 1 has an issue for wavs that start right at the leftmost extent of the timeline. I'm not sure why...just another strange PARIS thing. If you want to put Paris-Senderella on channel 1, move the zero time (via the locator window) to slightly inside the object (again, you need to prevent the plugin from encountering the object start handles). I didn't experience this problem on other channels, but if it pops up I'd say the fix is the same, start the transport inside the objects, not before them.

3) When using 16 bit send tracks the dummy track audio for the returns can be 16 bit or 24 bit on either EDS or Native submixes.

4) When using 24 bit send tracks, you can use only 24 bit dummy tracks on the returns on EDS submixes. 16 or 24 bit dummy tracks for the returns work for the Native submixes. This is why I suggest just using a single 24 bit silence track.

Issue (2) could result in lots of folks trying it out and being disappointed with the results...I mean who doesn't try things out on track 1 submix 1 of a new project? The trick is to move the zero time to just inside the object start. Paris is bizarre in how it handles plugins.

Cheers

Kris
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105926 is a reply to message #105925] Thu, 06 January 2011 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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Hey Kris

Did you (or we) ever get senderella to jump across Paris submixes...I thought we did but for the life of me I can't remember
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105927 is a reply to message #105926] Thu, 06 January 2011 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
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dnafe wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 07:39
Hey Kris

Did you (or we) ever get senderella to jump across Paris submixes...I thought we did but for the life of me I can't remember


Yup, it can send tracks to a higher numbered submix (e.g. you can send from submix 1 to submix 3, but not from 3 back to 1). The only issue with that is that there's additional latency across the submixes, with submix 1 having the highest latency. It's not something I'd use for parallel compression tricks, but it works fine for time based FX like delays and reverbs though.

Cheers

Kris
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105928 is a reply to message #105927] Thu, 06 January 2011 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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thanks for jogging the old memory
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105932 is a reply to message #105925] Thu, 06 January 2011 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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Thanks - Having a go at it...
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105933 is a reply to message #105927] Thu, 06 January 2011 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
drfrankencopter is currently offline  drfrankencopter   CANADA
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drfrankencopter wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 08:13
It's not something I'd use for parallel compression tricks, but it works fine for time based FX like delays and reverbs though.



Just to be clear, I was referring to using senderalla to jump across submixes here. Within a single submix, the parallel compression trick works great with it.

Cheers

Kris
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105934 is a reply to message #105933] Thu, 06 January 2011 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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Hey Kris

If Ididn't want to send stuff to a Native submix would I still need to use DX plugins because I do like your version better.

Don
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105943 is a reply to message #105907] Mon, 10 January 2011 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimitrios is currently offline  Dimitrios   
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Hi,
You can send all drumtracks to two eda auxes 1 & 2.
Make the auxes pre.
Mute the drumtracks.
Now put on auxes 1 & 2 the same compressor with the same settings
All your L drumtracks go only to aux 1 and your R to aux 2.
Your centered drumtracks (mono) go to both 1 & 2.
thus you can have a stereo drumtracks mix on the same submix only.
Regards,
Dimitrios
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105944 is a reply to message #105943] Mon, 10 January 2011 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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Thanks all. As per usual, there's lots o' help here.

TG
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105946 is a reply to message #105907] Tue, 11 January 2011 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimitrios is currently offline  Dimitrios   
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Hi,
Mec2 or Mec3 etc... can have their relative submixes outputed at SPDIF out !!! ONLY their respective submix.
So you could take all your drumtracks on submix 2 (Mec2) and then via spdif the stereo mix back to another submix (Mec3) as a stereo track and put your effects there.
You can even record your stereo track and then apply your native effects
Regards,
Dimitrios
Re: Methods for drum bussing in Paris [message #105970 is a reply to message #105946] Thu, 27 January 2011 07:01 Go to previous message
mani1147 is currently offline  mani1147   CANADA
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This is very cool Di, so I presume you would use the l + r outs on the Mec2 mixer and send to spdif, then into another submix via spdif, i'll have to play around with this, very good info Di.
Kerry, maybe we should document this in the wiki.
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