Home » The Bin » Lester The Nightfly » Crypte Archeologique de Paris
| Crypte Archeologique de Paris [message #102835] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 16:10  |
Martin Harrington
Messages: 560
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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I think you're missing my point though.
The Paris implementation of OMF was floored.
Believe me, I tried, and tried, and tried, and .....
And even when you could get another program to read Paris OMF, it still
didn't provide track names etc...
Martin H
Lend An Ear Sound
On 16/03/09 1:34 PM, in article 49bdbf6f@linux, "Administrator"
<kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
> Martin Harrington wrote on Sun, 15 March 2009 20:50
>> The problem with that theory is the Paris never actually created OMF's very
>> well.
>> They never really stuck to the specs although, in their defence, the specs
>> were constantly changing, (thanks Avid / Digi).
>>
>> Martin H
>> Lend An Ear Sound
>
>
> That's entirely the point though - right now, for the first time, you have a
> chance to work with a developer to *assure* that PARIS-generated OMFs *will
> beyond any shadow of a doubt* work flawlessly with Reaper - if we give him
> files to work with, it will be designed from beta to do exactly that :d.
>
>
> --------------------------
> :: [ posted via the PARISForums ] ::
> :: kerrygalloway.com/ParisForums/ ::
> --------------------------
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102837 is a reply to message #102835] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 17:02  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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Isn't the OMF code generated from a separate file, not embedded
in the main Paris app istelf (like a .dll, ISTR???), if so,
wouldn't it be possible for that file extension to be re-written
so that it WOULD, in fact export properly?
Neil
Martin Harrington <martin@lendanear-sound.com> wrote:
>I think you're missing my point though.
>The Paris implementation of OMF was floored.
>Believe me, I tried, and tried, and tried, and .....
>And even when you could get another program to read Paris OMF, it still
>didn't provide track names etc...
>
>Martin H
>Lend An Ear Sound
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102838 is a reply to message #102837] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 17:28 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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In two words, probably not :-)
If you have the .dlls, but don't have the header files with the definition
of the interfaces it's possible to dig in and reverse engineer the headers.
Work but doable.
If you have the headers, but the interfaces provided don't allow for the
passing of the required information (for example track names, you are sol
as they say. The app was built against those interfaces, and that's not
going to change.
If the interfaces that you manage to reverse engineer *do* allow for the
passing of the required information, you are left to your own devices to
provide a complete implementation of the interface.
Some would suggest that a reverse engineering of the *code* of the .dll,
combined with the reverse engineered interfaces would give you a good start
at the implementation of the interface. I would not agree, as the code ends
up being too obtuse (or opaque if you will) and of course, as we know the
implementation is flawed.
Then of course, you could do all this provided the interfaces *do* allow
for the passing of the track name, and you reverse engineered and provided
an implementation of the interfaces according to the header specification
- you find out in a final moment of terror that the application proper is
passing a null reference for the track name, and so on and so forth.
There is only one reason open source really works, there is source :-) If
we had the source for the paris application a few years back (say 2003),
we would be freaking light years ahead of reaper or any other open source
project.
Chuck
"Neil" <OUIOIU@OI.com> wrote:
>
>Isn't the OMF code generated from a separate file, not embedded
>in the main Paris app istelf (like a .dll, ISTR???), if so,
>wouldn't it be possible for that file extension to be re-written
>so that it WOULD, in fact export properly?
>
>Neil
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102841 is a reply to message #102840] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 20:37 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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........if the code is only a small part of the sonic
> equation? OR... is the code a bigger part of the equation?
> Thing is, nobody really knows.
ID knows, but they aren't talking about it. We have our educated guesses
about that. The Native part of Ver 3 doesn't sound the same, sorry guys -
and I know some ppl that would argue it.. but it just doesn't handle audio
the same way... Unless they've found a way to faithfully mimic the hardware
buses (ala mackie cut/gain structures, for one) it's probably nothin
special - assuming they've kept coding the application. Knowing some things
EP has done/talked about in the past and his love of it, I expect something
has been kept in motio. Sonar, cubase, etc... will give it all a run and
probably kill it these days, if it's even the same app. By now it should be
fully native, and probably mac-centric though that means less and less as
time marches since everyone moved to Intel based hardware.
The magic of paris lived too much in the hardware DSP (summing, latency,
real time live plugs) IMHO. As much as I love my UAD the facts are that
hardware just acts different. They have it REAL close though, and the gains
are pretty incrementally small at this point, as well as the cost to amount
of usable inserts is insanely in favor of software.
It looks like they're abusing the word "soon" again.
http://www.intelligentdevices.com/index1.shtml
http://www.intelligentdevices.com/pro_audio.shtml
How long's that been up there to check back often?
Neil: You're right, it is their intellectual property to do with as they
please. I'm more saddened that they've stagnated the product than mad about
it. Without taking out a mortgage on my home I was able to afford a stellar
sounding audio DAW with a lot of tracks and use it for years. I can't be
angry about that, really. And, to the inside of things let's be honest about
it - they probably released ver 3 knowing the product was already dead in
retrospect of events. So far ahead of it's time, but that time has passed
them by for a variety of reasons.
What Kerry and crew are doing is great and really appreciated. It's
extending our useful life from Paris, and that's pretty sweet. The thought
of actually being able to put it in a quad core box in the future has me
pretty giddy. My thoughts are, personally.... I prefer putting my energies
there. It made sense to quit thinking about ID some time ago due to lack of
relevance to my needs.
AA
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:49bf123c@linux...
>
> "Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>>If we had the source for the paris application a few years
>>back (say 2003), we would be freaking light years ahead of
>>reaper or any other open source project.
>>
>>That sickens me.
>>
>>Tom
>
> 1.) It shouldn't... it's ID's intellectual property & they (meaning Edmund
> himself & SSC's estate, in whatever capacity
> they each own those rights) can elect to do with it
> whatever they wish, even if that includes burying it forever.
>
> 2.) On the other hand, why wouldn't they sell it if they don't
> plan on doing anything with it?
>
> 3.) If they WOULD consider selling it, what would they charge?
>
> 4.) Considering whatever amount they would want to charge, could
> there be any profit to be made from it?
>
> 5.) Hardware-related issues abound... what would it be worth
> at this point, if the code is only a small part of the sonic
> equation? OR... is the code a bigger part of the equation?
> Thing is, nobody really knows.
>
> Neil
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102843 is a reply to message #102842] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 22:29 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Actually, I was referring to the 'native' submixing in ver 3 - which is to
be avoided if you can IMHO. Likely it's the same engine if you saw it around
the same time but I have no factual basis for that other than common sense
puzzle assembling.
I don't know, but my thinking is that since they'll be tapping the Paris
DSP/EDS cards that there probably is an advantage. I'm not sure of any of it
obviously since Mike hasn't created (to my knowledge, though I'm not in the
center of the data loop) any ASIO drivers yet. What I do understand is that
they will connect into the new Paris EDS drivers layer and that's a big one
for me...... onboard DSP has always been and still is IMO the way to low
latency w/o wierdo ghosts in the machine. Tapping the EDS is still very much
a smart thing to do even this far into the native years. I have dual and
quad core machines..... Paris is still so much more solid feeling and
constant in how it acts on a lowly AMD 1900+. If I can have that tied up
through ASIO to a native app, man o man are we headed for fun times with
very (if any) minimal hassles on our machines. Kinda like the old tape days
when you just slapped it on the real and started dialing the mixer, it all
just worked like it was supposed to.
What will, to me, be VERY interesting is to see if we can still have 24 and
16 bit files in the same project and how it sounds/ties into the EDS DSP:)
The guys at Reaper (Justin F in particular I am familiar with - no slights
meant to anyone else there) have a lot of smarts, so it'll be pretty
interesting times if we can get the open developers and the Reaper club into
the paris thing. I think they'll pick up a lot of business if they pull it
out with PAF and PPJ support and the ASIO driver does what I believe it will
do.
One of the nicer things would be that you could now take a project portable
for edits and show'n'tell type projects, or field work, using native Reaper
to track/edit and when you cut the real deal to mixdown use the EDS DSP for
the sonic improvement it imparts.
The other part of the equation, for me at least, is something Paris never
could offer with it's application software. Midi that doesn't suck, and
native borne instruments (DXi/VSTi).
AA
"TC" <tc@spammetodeathyoubastards.org> wrote in message
news:49bf261d@linux...
>
> This is what I've always wondered. Aaron, are you referring to the native
> version of Paris that they had at NAAM or AES that one year?
>
> I'm using paris with Paris hardware as a glorified summing/mixing box, and
> my guess is that the EDS cards always have had much to do with the "Paris
> sound". I think it's awesome that things are moving forward to be able to
> use paris hardware with native apps, but apart from session mobility and
> convenience, is their any sonic benefit to this?
>
> Cheers,
>
> TC
>
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>
> The Native part of Ver 3 doesn't sound the same, sorry guys -
>> and I know some ppl that would argue it.. but it just doesn't handle
>> audio the same way...
>
>
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102845 is a reply to message #102844] |
Mon, 16 March 2009 23:07 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Well TC, my understanding is that Mike rewrote enough of the EDS driver to
insert a layer connection and tap the EDS card on a much better level.
Details, I'm not sure on and I'd wait for him to elaborate on that
anyway..... it's dude's project :)
However, if I understand that all correctly it's big. Very big.
> I guess I'm wondering to what degree this could be possible, and if this
> would make it (Reaper/w Paris hw) fall somewhere between a dedicated dsp
> system (Paris/PT), and a fully Native system?
Personally, what I'm hoping for is a creamware type situation w/o the
hard-to-use SCOPE software. Disk streams, mix control, VSTi and GUI all
comes off the app, but the actual summing and Paris EQ's/EDS FX/latency and
I/O control DSP is slamming it on the PCI cards. With the Reaper
architecture, I could even see someone writing controls to use the Cs16's.
Perfect world man!
AA
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:24] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102875 is a reply to message #102838] |
Thu, 19 March 2009 18:24 |
Don
Messages: 1
Registered: March 2009
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Junior Member |
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Chuck,
I am not sure if you remember me, Don Orason. Myself and Dave Goldwag
were local guys around Scotts Valley, CA where EMU is located.
Anyway, back in Pre- 3.0 Paris days, Dave and I were on the beta team
and were the only "real recording studio" guys on the team.
We sat in on most of the discussions that were held on a conference
call with Edmund for the development of Paris. EMU employees did not
really understand the product very much but Ed Rudnick and a few
others were totally behind it and wanted it to really become a
contender for Digi.
It appeared at that time that Edmund was totally behind the product,
even though he didn't listen to feature requests as well as he should
have...he had his own agenda.
In my opinion and from having an inside seat...the real problem was
Creative Labs they would not supply enough funds to keep Paris moving
forward...
That is my take...but it was a great time when we would all get
together and try get all the bugs worked out...Also, there was another
version that was created, I can't quite remember what was different
but I think Dave had a working version...from memory their was
definitely something cool about it...I think you (Chuck) heard or saw
this version...am I correct??
Well that's my 2 cents!
Don
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:24] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102879 is a reply to message #102836] |
Thu, 19 March 2009 20:47 |
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| Martin Harrington wrote on Mon, 16 March 2009 19:12 | My point exactly, see my previous post.
Martin H
Lend An Ear Sound
On 17/03/09 12:08 AM, in article 49be4156$1@linux, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com>
wrote:
>
> Just playing devils advocate...
>
> If the omf files paris generates are flawed in some basic way, you can't
> assure that they will work flawlessly with reaper, no matter how much cutting
> you do on reaper.
|
Fair enough observations. But starting from the guess that they're broken in some kind of fundamental way will mean we do nothing and get precisely jack shit. I'm working from the assumption that they're likely fundamentally OK, but were rushed out the door in such a hurry at the last moment that something minor and sloppy got missed that can potentially be compensated for on input (assuming a coder willing to work with us on the input end, which we now have).
I certainly may be wrong in that guess. I hope someone spends the half-hour needed to bounce out and upload an OMF to find out for sure.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102882 is a reply to message #102875] |
Fri, 20 March 2009 00:32 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Here is the story
I also have an insider perspective, I believe the truth is Creative bought
Ensoniq for their sound cards. They didn't care all that much about the
rest of there products and they already owned EMU, so they handed EMU the
Ensoniq line. The people in charge of EMU saw Ensoniq products as the competition,
they thought Ensoniq products were inferior to EMU products and in their
arrogance they wanted to kill everything Ensoniq. Scott Emmerman was in
charge, he made the decision, HE wanted to kill Ensoniq, and he did. The
problem was they were suppose to recoup some of the investment, and they
were sitting on a ton of Ensoniq product, especially Paris. They wanted
to keep on cashing in with Paris. In order to Keep on selling Paris they
had to get people to think they were going to move forward with PARIS.
They never wanted to spend money on Paris, they just wanted to make a quick
buck. When they got in the shipments of Paris hardware it was in pieces,
they found that a bunch of it had not been painted yet, so they came up with
the idea of Painting the hardware EMU blue. It became all part of the scam
to make everyone think that they were serious about Paris, The truth is,
the plan from day one was to liquidate the inventory. They also changed
their name to EMU/Ensoniq to make people think they were serious. They told
people that they were working on new hardware, I never saw anything. They
even lied in press releases about capabilities to sell more Paris product.
There were modules that Ensoniq was working on, but I have my doubts that
EMU ever really had anything new under development. Here is a press release
that we now know has falsehoods in it about development and support for third
party motorized control surfaces. http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM01/article/EMU_ENSONIQ/ PARIS-Pro.html
The EMU guys despised Ensoniq products and said so, notice that they never
put the Ensoniq name on any other product? Once the product was gone, Ensoniq
was gone. They changed their name back to EMU. When they got rid of enough
of the Paris inventory, they were done signing contracts with ID. They blew
out the last of the inventory. The End
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:23] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: In the meantime: PARIS to REAPER via OMF [message #102885 is a reply to message #102882] |
Fri, 20 March 2009 07:14 |
Dave
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2007
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Junior Member |
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Hello everyone (I still exist),
Don's post is basically correct so here is some of the "rest
of the story".....The real energy behind Paris at EMU during
this time was Kevin Monahan. I met him and volunteered my local
studio to help with real life testing of Paris. I also began
communicating with Brian Tankersly to try and connect the real
world value of Paris to the marketing strategy at EMU. I ended
up getting very deep into the politics of Paris/EMU as well as
becoming more involved in the software testing (the Mac multiple MEC timeclock
issues were discovered in a marathon test session in my studio). All of
us worked hard (with
Edmund) to try to convince EMU to put more resources into
Paris but the complexity of trying to support the "outside"
product within EMU proved too much. There are many sub-
stories that occurred (including my on-going
friendship with a number of Paris related people) and I have
continued to lurk on the site. I still use Paris in my new
studio (now located on the east coast in Ace Frehley's old
"Ace in the Hole" studio) and am ever hopeful that Edmund
will once again apply his many programming talents to audio.
Dave
[Updated on: Fri, 20 March 2009 11:21] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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