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Forte development especially for Paris-feedback please [message #74048] Sat, 14 October 2006 12:34 Go to previous message
animix is currently offline  animix   UNITED STATES
Messages: 356
Registered: September 2006
Senior Member
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First, I'll review my working method so far:

Basically where we are with this is as follows:

I can stream tracks from Paris *through* Forte, applying UAD-1 and other =
VST plugins and it appears that this would be usable in a mix scenatio =
with Paris automation.

Here are the steps involved if buffers for the native audio card are set =
to 512k:

Paris Editor: highlight all Paris tracks and nudge to the left by 10 + 1 =
samples to compensate for buffer latency in native DAW
Paris Mixer: External insert in EDS inserts, Sampleslide on native =
insert set to 48 samples to achieve sample accuracy with buffer latency.
( this will ned to be done for every track in the mix)

Patch the Paris ADAT I/O to the I/O of the native audio interface and =
configure inserts to I/O in Paris patchbay-save as template routing.

In Forte, create input and output busses and assign the native I/O that =
correlates to the Paris I/O
Add a UAD-1 Delaycomp set to compensate for 5 plugins on each Forte =
output bus.
Insert whatever number of UAD-1 plugins after the Delaycomp plugin on =
each bus and reduce the number of pluins the Delaycomp is compensating =
for by the number of UAD-1 plugins on that bus.

Start playback in Paris. Your track will be processed at very low =
latency and you will be able to effectively use the Paris editor =
timeline to reference your fader automation moves.

This sounds complicated. It's not, at least for me. It's very easy to =
set up and save. I've got a mix template set up in Forte and =
patchbay/mixer timplates set up in Paris. A few clicks and I'm good. =
Forte has been very stable for me so far with 12 mono input busses, 12 =
mono output busses and a stereo bus processing 14 Paris tracks across =
EDS cards. At this point, I run out of access to my output points to =
create more busses in the Forte menu. Forte is capable of 32 busses and =
32 instruments/plugins, so a few more would be available to me if I =
created more stereo.busses, but since the Delaycomp is a plugin and must =
be on each bus, the number of busses must always be substantially less =
than the number of UAD-1 plugins since applying even one plugin after =
each Delaycomp will effectively double the number of plugins that Forte =
will need o be capable of handling .....thus the dilemma. In order to =
work, forte will need to be able to create as many busses as there are =
physical I/O and will need to be able to host, in theroy, at least 6 =
plugins per bus. On my rig, that would number in the hundreds (in =
theory).

Personally, I like mixing in Paris and this is the most viable solution =
I've found for using a second computer as a standalone VST processor =
rack which is able to reliably interface with Paris in a practical way =
at low latency.

I have seen reports that this program can also be interfaced between two =
workstations using Wormhole. I haven't tried it so I don't know how well =
that would work.=20

The price of this program in it's current incarnation is $129.95.=20

I have shared a few e-mails with the developer. In one of them I asked =
him what it would cost for he and his partner to basically build a =
"Paris version" with an unlimited number of plugins and limit the number =
of busses only to the available I/O of the audio interface. I explained =
to him about how our group here has been looking for viable solutions =
for moving this platform a little further along into the 21st century =
(well.....I guess from some of the responses I've gotten from other =
threads here about my experiments that maybe there aren't as many still =
interested in this than there once were, but anyway.....)

He has been very cordial and cooperative. I received a reply from him =
this morning. I have edited the name of his partner for now and am =
posting the reply, as follows:

How many licenses are we talking about here? I assume this could be =
done by guaranteeing a minimum number of licenses for some higher price =
to recover the additional development costs. **** and I would need to =
size the effort to come up with an acceptable rate.=20
=20
One concern I would have is that the Paris users would need to be =
willing to be beta testers for this functionality first. We could do =
the work, do a couple of beta drops, and then a final.
=20
Finally, the special features we do would be incorporated into the =
product for all to enjoy, but the Paris users would essentially be =
paying more to fund the development.
=20
Is this close to what you are thinking?

We have talked in the past about paying for upgrades to the Paris =
system. I am still in contact with my friend who programmed the MRI =
software and he is still interested in the delay compensation idea for =
Paris, but we would have to have the source code from ID and that is not =
forthcoming, to my knowledge.

I know that this is yet another workaround and involves a lot of =
*outside the box* stuff, but what I have done here works.....and works =
better than anything else I've tried. the only other thinkg that I know =
of that *might* be able to pull this off is NI KORE. Though I love their =
B4, Bandstand, etc., KORE does not appear ready for prime time, IMO, and =
for the pruposes I envision, is definitely overkill with a big price =
tag.=20

I have also seen on one of the websites associated with Forte that the =
Senderella code was used for their aux bus plugin for this app. I will =
be trying this out later today to see how well it works.

I don't want to yank anyone's chain either here or at Brainspawn. Let me =
know if you are interested in pursuing this and if you would be willing =
to pay for something like this.=20

You can PM me if you want at animix@animas.net or post here.

Thanks,

Deej


=20



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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First, I'll review my working method so =

far:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Basically where we are with this is as=20
follows:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can stream tracks from Paris =
*through* Forte,=20
applying UAD-1 and other VST plugins and it appears that this would=20
be&nbsp;usable in a mix scenatio with Paris automation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here are the steps involved if buffers =
for the=20
native audio card are set to 512k:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paris Editor: highlight all Paris =
tracks and nudge=20
to the left&nbsp;by 10&nbsp;+ 1 samples&nbsp;to compensate for buffer =
latency in=20
native DAW</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paris Mixer: External insert in EDS =
inserts,=20
Sampleslide on native insert set to 48 samples to achieve sample =
accuracy with=20
buffer latency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( this will ned to be done for every =
track in the=20
mix)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patch the Paris ADAT I/O to the I/O of =
the native=20
audio interface and configure inserts to I/O in Paris patchbay-save as =
template=20
routing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In Forte, create input and output =
busses and assign=20
the native I/O that correlates to the Paris I/O</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Add a UAD-1 Delaycomp set to compensate =
for 5=20
plugins on each Forte output bus.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Insert whatever number of UAD-1 =
plugins&nbsp;after=20
the Delaycomp plugin on each bus and reduce the number of pluins the =
Delaycomp=20
is compensating for by the number of UAD-1 plugins on that =
bus.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Start playback in Paris. Your track =
will be=20
processed at very low latency and you will be able to effectively use =
the Paris=20
editor timeline to reference your fader automation moves.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This sounds complicated. It's not, at =
least for me.=20
It's very easy to set up and save. I've got a mix template set up in =
Forte and=20
patchbay/mixer timplates set up in Paris. A few clicks and I'm good. =
Forte has=20
been very stable for me so far with 12 mono input busses, 12 mono output =
busses=20
and a stereo bus processing 14 Paris tracks across EDS cards. At this =
point, I=20
run out of access to my output points&nbsp;to create more busses&nbsp;in =
the=20
Forte menu.&nbsp;Forte is capable of 32 busses and 32 =
instruments/plugins, so a=20
few more&nbsp;would be available to me if I created more stereo.busses, =
but=20
since the Delaycomp is a plugin and must be on each bus, the number of =
busses=20
must always be substantially less than the number of&nbsp; UAD-1 plugins =
since=20
applying even one plugin after each Delaycomp will effectively double =
the number=20
of plugins&nbsp;that Forte will need&nbsp;o be capable of=20
handling&nbsp;.....thus the dilemma. In order to work, forte will need =
to be=20
able to create as many busses as there are physical I/O and will need to =
be able=20
to host, in theroy, at least 6 plugins per bus. On my rig, that would =
number in=20
the hundreds (in theory).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Personally, I like mixing in Paris and =
this is the=20
most viable solution I've found for using a second computer as a =
standalone VST=20
processor rack&nbsp;which is able to reliably interface with Paris in a=20
practical way at low latency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have seen reports that this program =
can also be=20
interfaced between two workstations using Wormhole. I haven't tried it =
so I=20
don't know how well that&nbsp;would work.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The price of this program in it's =
current=20
incarnation is $129.95. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have shared a few e-mails with the =
developer. In=20
one of them I asked him what it would cost&nbsp; for he and his partner =
to=20
basically build a "Paris version"&nbsp;with an unlimited number of =
plugins and=20
limit the number of busses only to the available I/O of the audio =
interface. I=20
explained to him about how our group here has been looking for viable =
solutions=20
for moving this platform a little further along into the 21st century=20
(well.....I guess from some of the responses I've gotten from other =
threads here=20
about my experiments that&nbsp;maybe there aren't as many still =
interested in=20
this than there once were, but anyway.....)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He has been very cordial and =
cooperative. I=20
received a reply from him this morning. I have edited the name of his =
partner=20
for now&nbsp;and am posting the reply, as follows:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG><EM>How many licenses are we =
talking about=20
here?&nbsp; I assume this could be done by guaranteeing a minimum number =
of=20
licenses for some higher price to recover the additional development=20
costs.&nbsp;&nbsp;****&nbsp;and I would need to size the effort to come =
up with=20
an acceptable rate. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>One concern I would have is that the =
Paris=20
users would need to be willing to be beta testers for this functionality =

first.&nbsp; We could do the work, do a couple of beta drops, and then a =

final.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Finally, the special features we do would be =
incorporated=20
into the product for all to enjoy, but the Paris users would essentially =
be=20
paying more to fund the development.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Is this close to what =
you are=20
thinking?</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV >
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We have talked in the past about paying =
for=20
upgrades to the Paris system. I am still in contact with my friend who=20
programmed the MRI software and he is still interested in the delay =
compensation=20
idea for Paris, but we would have to have the source code from ID and =
that is=20
not forthcoming, to my knowledge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know that this is yet another =
workaround and=20
involves a lot of *outside the box* stuff, but what I have done here=20
works.....and works better than anything else I've tried. the only other =
thinkg=20
that I know of that *might* be able to pull this off is NI KORE. Though =
I love=20
their B4, Bandstand, etc., KORE does not appear ready for prime time, =
IMO, and=20
for the pruposes I envision, is definitely overkill with a big price =
tag.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have also seen on one of the websites =
associated=20
with Forte that the Senderella code was used for their aux bus plugin =
for this=20
app. I will be trying this out later today to see how well it=20
works.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't want to yank anyone's chain =
either here or=20
at Brainspawn. Let me know if you are interested in pursuing =
this&nbsp;and if=20
you would be willing to pay for something like this. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You can PM me if you want at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:animix@animas.net">animix@animas.net</A>&nbsp;or post=20
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Deej</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><EM>&nbsp;<BR></EM></STRONG></DIV ></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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