Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Hitchens vs. Hitchens...
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85833 is a reply to message #85830] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 03:05   |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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Oh hell . . . here we go. I tried to stop myself, but when somebody throws
religion out in front of me, it's like throwing a ball of paper in front of
my cat . . . I can't NOT chase it. Especially since I just happen to be
about 80% through "God Is Not Great" as we speak.
I had no idea there was a brother Hitchens. Interesting that they disagree
on "almost everything." I will hereafter refer to them as Chris and Pete.
OK, first of all, I don't agree with everything in Chris's book, and I think
sometimes his points are obscured by the cleverness of his prose. (Or maybe
I'm just slow.) Nor do I disagree with everything in Pete's article, but he
makes some really tired arguments.
Pete is probably not representative of the type of believer Chris would
consider dangerous, because Pete is, by his own description, open-minded.
He says religious people do not claim to know everything, or take the bible
literally. What? Um . . . actually many of them do claim to know
everything, at least everything anyone needs to know, and a whole lot of
them do take the bible literally. I don't have any problem with believers
who admit to some doubt about what they believe. I'm relieved when I meet
religious people who are willing to even admit that their beliefs are
beliefs. On the other hand:
"The Bible is the word of God."
"How do you know?"
"Says so in the Bible"
"Oh. Well, how do you know it's true"
"The Bible is the word of God."
"Thanks for clearing that up."
"No problem."
I do have a problem when believers insist that only their beliefs are true,
and that everyone must live according to those beliefs. This includes
preventing schools from teaching things that may contradict their beliefs.
"Science is a religion, too." Uh huh. And lions were once vegetarians.
I also have a problem with religious fanatics who long for Armageddon so
much they want to help it along so Jesus will come back. And we're all too
familiar with the ones to think committing mass murder/suicide will land
them in some kind of cross between Heaven and a whore house. (Why 72
virgins? Isn't one enough? OK, maybe two . . . )
Pete objects to the child abuse chapter. The title of the chapter in the
book is "Is Religion Child Abuse?" and the answer is, "it can be." Ritual
genital mutilation anyone? Enough said. Or how 'bout a Muslim child being
indoctrinated with the belief that believers of any other faith are less
that human and deserve to die and that the best thing in life to strive for
is martydom? Yes . . . child abuse. What about being forced to go to
catechism on saturday mornings when all the cartoons were on . . . well, at
the time, I felt abused, but I got over it. I do think it's wrong to teach
a child your beliefs without also teaching them that there are other
beliefs, and non-beliefs. They should be encouraged to learn about other
religions, and to explore spirituality for themselves. Want your kid (or
anyone else) to believe as you do? Be a shining example of what your
beliefs do for you.
But the silliest, tiredest, and most irritating argument in Pete's article .
.. . well, here's a few examples:
"We are in the process - encouraged by Christopher - of abolishing religion,
and so of abolishing conscience, too."
"If you do not worship God, you end up worshipping power . . . "
"But why should atheists care, or use such terms as "good" and "virtue"
anyway? "
"But as soon as we have the power to do evil, we generally do."
Yes folks, it's the absurd idea that without belief in God, there is nothing
to stop one from evil behaviour. Maybe believers are drawn to religion
because they have so little faith in their own goodness. But I, for one of
millions, do not believe in God, Heaven, or Hell except as metaphors, and
yet here I am . . . no trail of dead bodies, no plundered wealth, no
criminal record, and I'm a nurse with a reputation for being exceptionally
empathetic and kind. People can be honest and kind just because they
respect the rights and feelings of others . . . no deity required. The
"Golden Rule" provides its own rewards and punishments.
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm gonna turn this argument around and
say that if someone really needs the threat of Hell, the enticement of
Heaven, and a list of God's rules to be a good person, perhaps he or she is
not in possession of a conscience.
Anyway, I recommend the book. He's an amusing writer and makes a pretty
good case for the argument that religion is purely a human invention.
Damn it, DC, you knew this would get me . . .
Sarah
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46625a22$1@linux...
>
> Forget the load of bollocks about impeaching Bush, and read this:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomm ent.html?in_article_id=459427&in_page_id=1787&in_a_s ource=
>
> GREAT piece.
>
> DC
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85837 is a reply to message #85833] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 03:48 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
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Senior Member |
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exactly! there's no better reason or justification to persecute and
hate than ones self proclaimed righteous belief in a supreme being
above all others. hey, doesn't that fall in to the deadly sin of
pride???
On Sun, 3 Jun 2007 03:05:50 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
wrote:
>Oh hell . . . here we go. I tried to stop myself, but when somebody throws
>religion out in front of me, it's like throwing a ball of paper in front of
>my cat . . . I can't NOT chase it. Especially since I just happen to be
>about 80% through "God Is Not Great" as we speak.
>
>I had no idea there was a brother Hitchens. Interesting that they disagree
>on "almost everything." I will hereafter refer to them as Chris and Pete.
>
>OK, first of all, I don't agree with everything in Chris's book, and I think
>sometimes his points are obscured by the cleverness of his prose. (Or maybe
>I'm just slow.) Nor do I disagree with everything in Pete's article, but he
>makes some really tired arguments.
>
>Pete is probably not representative of the type of believer Chris would
>consider dangerous, because Pete is, by his own description, open-minded.
>He says religious people do not claim to know everything, or take the bible
>literally. What? Um . . . actually many of them do claim to know
>everything, at least everything anyone needs to know, and a whole lot of
>them do take the bible literally. I don't have any problem with believers
>who admit to some doubt about what they believe. I'm relieved when I meet
>religious people who are willing to even admit that their beliefs are
>beliefs. On the other hand:
>
>"The Bible is the word of God."
>"How do you know?"
>"Says so in the Bible"
>"Oh. Well, how do you know it's true"
>"The Bible is the word of God."
>"Thanks for clearing that up."
>"No problem."
>
>I do have a problem when believers insist that only their beliefs are true,
>and that everyone must live according to those beliefs. This includes
>preventing schools from teaching things that may contradict their beliefs.
>"Science is a religion, too." Uh huh. And lions were once vegetarians.
>
>I also have a problem with religious fanatics who long for Armageddon so
>much they want to help it along so Jesus will come back. And we're all too
>familiar with the ones to think committing mass murder/suicide will land
>them in some kind of cross between Heaven and a whore house. (Why 72
>virgins? Isn't one enough? OK, maybe two . . . )
>
>Pete objects to the child abuse chapter. The title of the chapter in the
>book is "Is Religion Child Abuse?" and the answer is, "it can be." Ritual
>genital mutilation anyone? Enough said. Or how 'bout a Muslim child being
>indoctrinated with the belief that believers of any other faith are less
>that human and deserve to die and that the best thing in life to strive for
>is martydom? Yes . . . child abuse. What about being forced to go to
>catechism on saturday mornings when all the cartoons were on . . . well, at
>the time, I felt abused, but I got over it. I do think it's wrong to teach
>a child your beliefs without also teaching them that there are other
>beliefs, and non-beliefs. They should be encouraged to learn about other
>religions, and to explore spirituality for themselves. Want your kid (or
>anyone else) to believe as you do? Be a shining example of what your
>beliefs do for you.
>
>But the silliest, tiredest, and most irritating argument in Pete's article .
>. . well, here's a few examples:
>
>"We are in the process - encouraged by Christopher - of abolishing religion,
>and so of abolishing conscience, too."
>
>"If you do not worship God, you end up worshipping power . . . "
>
>"But why should atheists care, or use such terms as "good" and "virtue"
>anyway? "
>
>"But as soon as we have the power to do evil, we generally do."
>
>Yes folks, it's the absurd idea that without belief in God, there is nothing
>to stop one from evil behaviour. Maybe believers are drawn to religion
>because they have so little faith in their own goodness. But I, for one of
>millions, do not believe in God, Heaven, or Hell except as metaphors, and
>yet here I am . . . no trail of dead bodies, no plundered wealth, no
>criminal record, and I'm a nurse with a reputation for being exceptionally
>empathetic and kind. People can be honest and kind just because they
>respect the rights and feelings of others . . . no deity required. The
>"Golden Rule" provides its own rewards and punishments.
>
>I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm gonna turn this argument around and
>say that if someone really needs the threat of Hell, the enticement of
>Heaven, and a list of God's rules to be a good person, perhaps he or she is
>not in possession of a conscience.
>
>Anyway, I recommend the book. He's an amusing writer and makes a pretty
>good case for the argument that religion is purely a human invention.
>
>Damn it, DC, you knew this would get me . . .
>
>Sarah
>
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46625a22$1@linux...
>>
>> Forget the load of bollocks about impeaching Bush, and read this:
>>
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomm ent.html?in_article_id=459427&in_page_id=1787&in_a_s ource=
>>
>> GREAT piece.
>>
>> DC
>>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85851 is a reply to message #85833] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 09:46 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Actually, I was not trying to raise any of these issues. I simply thought
it was a really cool to see Chris hoisted a bit on the family petard, and
I think Pete pointed out some clear contradictions and illogic in Chris'
position and took the argument to another level. Good for him.
I am not much like Pete at all, who is probably 1/2 atheist himself, but
at least he is not the evangelist the Chris is.
>I had no idea there was a brother Hitchens. Interesting that they disagree
>on "almost everything." I will hereafter refer to them as Chris and Pete.
I think it clearly illustrates how belief (for both positions are
belief) seems to lie in a deeper and more basic place than the places
we ascribe it to. Not that there should not be a rational basis for it,
but we seem to confirm our positions with rationality rather than
achieve them with it. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned...
>Pete is probably not representative of the type of believer Chris would
>consider dangerous, because Pete is, by his own description, open-minded.
>He says religious people do not claim to know everything, or take the bible
>literally. What? Um . . . actually many of them do claim to know
>everything, at least everything anyone needs to know, and a whole lot of
>them do take the bible literally.
Here is what we are told to take literally:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness
>I don't have any problem with believers
>who admit to some doubt about what they believe.
"The only people I have met in this world who never doubt are
materialists and atheists. I think they have a sort of ludicrous
certainty that there is nothing transcendental to know. But for me,
at any rate, doubt has been an integral part of coming to have faith.”
Malcolm Muggeridge
>I'm relieved when I meet
>religious people who are willing to even admit that their beliefs are
>beliefs.
Met any atheists like that? Me neither.
>"The Bible is the word of God."
>"How do you know?"
>"Says so in the Bible"
>"Oh. Well, how do you know it's true"
>"The Bible is the word of God."
>"Thanks for clearing that up."
>"No problem."
I'm sure there are people like that. I don't know any...
Here's a much better answer to the question posed above, and it is not
very scholarly. There are many more that are.
http://www.leestrobel.com/Bible.htm
>I do have a problem when believers insist that only their beliefs are true,
>and that everyone must live according to those beliefs.
Well personally I much prefer believers who insist that their beliefs are
complete nonsense...
hmmm that didn't come out right... Let me try again.
You are leveraging your comment above that it's all beliefs. Once someone
agrees to this, they can never again claim any truth. But, if someone is
NOT an atheist, then perhaps there actually may be an
objective truth to be found. In which case, all the other myths are
myths indeed.
See, the problem is assuming atheist neutrality. It doesn't exist.
The idea that you get everyone to simply admit that it is all beliefs
and we should all ascribe to the higher ideal of peace and brotherhood
while we do our little dance or smoke our little peyote, or sing a hymn
has resulted not in atheist utopia, but in the end of belief as it ceases
to
amuse us, (not to mention the outrages committed by the many atheist
utopians of the 20th century).
The way to peace is to take righteousness, to take Jesus Christ, seriously.
And that means not substituting your words for his. This, of course,
applies equally to the Bible Belt as to the Jesus Seminar...
>This includes
>preventing schools from teaching things that may contradict their beliefs.
>"Science is a religion, too." Uh huh. And lions were once vegetarians.
This is a misrepresentation of the ID position, and a rather crude one
at that. We want evolution taught, and the fact that there is a
controversy about the extrapolations of macroevolution and the
philosophical underpinnings of Naturalism taught as well. To deny
that there is a controversy is bad science.
>I also have a problem with religious fanatics who long for Armageddon so
>much they want to help it along so Jesus will come back.
Me too.
>Pete objects to the child abuse chapter. The title of the chapter in the
>book is "Is Religion Child Abuse?" and the answer is, "it can be."
And of course, so can atheism. What is true?
>Ritual
>genital mutilation anyone? Enough said. Or how 'bout a Muslim child being
>indoctrinated with the belief that believers of any other faith are less
>that human and deserve to die and that the best thing in life to strive
for
>is martydom? Yes . . . child abuse.
How DARE you criticize their CULTURE??? From what exalted
height do you ge the right to do so? Remember, you have no absolutes
so the elimination of clitoridectomy is only accomplished through the
use of power to assert Sarah's own feminist, white, privileged little
worldview on others. Pete was right wasn't he?
Anyway, I gotta go drop off the teenager at a graduation, so this will
have to wait...
take care
DC
What about being forced to go to
>catechism on saturday mornings when all the cartoons were on . . . well,
at
>the time, I felt abused, but I got over it. I do think it's wrong to teach
>a child your beliefs without also teaching them that there are other
>beliefs, and non-beliefs. They should be encouraged to learn about other
>religions, and to explore spirituality for themselves. Want your kid (or
>anyone else) to believe as you do? Be a shining example of what your
>beliefs do for you.
>
>But the silliest, tiredest, and most irritating argument in Pete's article
.
>. . well, here's a few examples:
>
>"We are in the process - encouraged by Christopher - of abolishing religion,
>and so of abolishing conscience, too."
>
>"If you do not worship God, you end up worshipping power . . . "
>
>"But why should atheists care, or use such terms as "good" and "virtue"
>anyway? "
>
>"But as soon as we have the power to do evil, we generally do."
>
>Yes folks, it's the absurd idea that without belief in God, there is nothing
>to stop one from evil behaviour. Maybe believers are drawn to religion
>because they have so little faith in their own goodness. But I, for one
of
>millions, do not believe in God, Heaven, or Hell except as metaphors, and
>yet here I am . . . no trail of dead bodies, no plundered wealth, no
>criminal record, and I'm a nurse with a reputation for being exceptionally
>empathetic and kind. People can be honest and kind just because they
>respect the rights and feelings of others . . . no deity required. The
>"Golden Rule" provides its own rewards and punishments.
>
>I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm gonna turn this argument around and
>say that if someone really needs the threat of Hell, the enticement of
>Heaven, and a list of God's rules to be a good person, perhaps he or she
is
>not in possession of a conscience.
>
>Anyway, I recommend the book. He's an amusing writer and makes a pretty
>good case for the argument that religion is purely a human invention.
>
>Damn it, DC, you knew this would get me . . .
>
>Sarah
>
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46625a22$1@linux...
>>
>> Forget the load of bollocks about impeaching Bush, and read this:
>>
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomm ent.html?in_article_id=459427&in_page_id=1787&in_a_s ource=
>>
>> GREAT piece.
>>
>> DC
>>
>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85896 is a reply to message #85851] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 19:22 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
OK, two quick things . . .
One, while some atheists are as closed-minded and unjustifiably certain of
their position as the worst of Christian fundies, these are individuals, and
not representative of all atheists. Most atheists simply do not see any
reason to believe in God, and to attempt to diminish that position by
claiming that "lack of belief is itself belief" is just illogical. Some
people need reason to believe, and given insufficient reason, will not
believe.
Two, every time someone tries to show me why I should believe the Bible is
the word of God (including a bunch of those little videos you linked . . . I
didn't watch all of them), there seems to be this hint of desperation to
save their beliefs from the brutal onslaught of logic and in some cases,
history. The problem is, most every argument I hear is basically "the Bible
is the Word of God because it says it is." The conclusion is contained in
the premise. Where I went to school, that's called circular logic or
"begging the question."
Some of the videos focused on the reliability of the authors of the three
synoptic gospels, written 50 - 90 years after Jesus' death. I'm sure they
were swell guys who felt they had an important story to tell, but I'm just
speculating, as is anyone else who claims to know their methods and
motivations.
But belief in the good intentions of Matthew, Mark, and Luke is yet another
belief layered over the belief in question, i.e., "The Bible Is the Word of
God."
I don't really expect or need an answer to this, I just like to question
beliefs. I suspect the reason people believe that the Bible is the Word of
God is simply that they have chosen to believe that. And that's OK with me.
Whatever floats your boat.
I myself believe that human beings were genetically designed by
extraterrestrials using modified ape DNA who then turned us loose in the
jungle to see what would happen. That's right, we're just ants in some
alien kid's terrarium, and if we don't stop stinking up his room with CO2,
he's gonna take us out in the back yard and blast us with a garden hose.
Sarah
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4662f07d$1@linux...
>
> Actually, I was not trying to raise any of these issues. I simply thought
> it was a really cool to see Chris hoisted a bit on the family petard, and
> I think Pete pointed out some clear contradictions and illogic in Chris'
> position and took the argument to another level. Good for him.
>
> I am not much like Pete at all, who is probably 1/2 atheist himself, but
> at least he is not the evangelist the Chris is.
>
>
>>I had no idea there was a brother Hitchens. Interesting that they
>>disagree
>
>>on "almost everything." I will hereafter refer to them as Chris and Pete.
>
> I think it clearly illustrates how belief (for both positions are
> belief) seems to lie in a deeper and more basic place than the places
> we ascribe it to. Not that there should not be a rational basis for it,
> but we seem to confirm our positions with rationality rather than
> achieve them with it. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned...
>
>
>>Pete is probably not representative of the type of believer Chris would
>
>>consider dangerous, because Pete is, by his own description, open-minded.
>
>>He says religious people do not claim to know everything, or take the
>>bible
>
>>literally. What? Um . . . actually many of them do claim to know
>>everything, at least everything anyone needs to know, and a whole lot of
>
>>them do take the bible literally.
>
> Here is what we are told to take literally:
>
> 2 Timothy 3:16
>
> All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
> for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
> righteousness
>
>
>>I don't have any problem with believers
>>who admit to some doubt about what they believe.
>
>
> "The only people I have met in this world who never doubt are
> materialists and atheists. I think they have a sort of ludicrous
> certainty that there is nothing transcendental to know. But for me,
> at any rate, doubt has been an integral part of coming to have faith."
>
> Malcolm Muggeridge
>
>>I'm relieved when I meet
>>religious people who are willing to even admit that their beliefs are
>>beliefs.
>
> Met any atheists like that? Me neither.
>
>
>
>>"The Bible is the word of God."
>>"How do you know?"
>>"Says so in the Bible"
>>"Oh. Well, how do you know it's true"
>>"The Bible is the word of God."
>>"Thanks for clearing that up."
>>"No problem."
>
> I'm sure there are people like that. I don't know any...
>
> Here's a much better answer to the question posed above, and it is not
> very scholarly. There are many more that are.
>
> http://www.leestrobel.com/Bible.htm
>
>
>>I do have a problem when believers insist that only their beliefs are
>>true,
>
>>and that everyone must live according to those beliefs.
>
> Well personally I much prefer believers who insist that their beliefs are
> complete nonsense...
>
> hmmm that didn't come out right... Let me try again.
>
> You are leveraging your comment above that it's all beliefs. Once someone
> agrees to this, they can never again claim any truth. But, if someone is
> NOT an atheist, then perhaps there actually may be an
> objective truth to be found. In which case, all the other myths are
> myths indeed.
>
> See, the problem is assuming atheist neutrality. It doesn't exist.
> The idea that you get everyone to simply admit that it is all beliefs
> and we should all ascribe to the higher ideal of peace and brotherhood
> while we do our little dance or smoke our little peyote, or sing a hymn
> has resulted not in atheist utopia, but in the end of belief as it ceases
> to
> amuse us, (not to mention the outrages committed by the many atheist
> utopians of the 20th century).
>
> The way to peace is to take righteousness, to take Jesus Christ,
> seriously.
> And that means not substituting your words for his. This, of course,
> applies equally to the Bible Belt as to the Jesus Seminar...
>
>
>>This includes
>>preventing schools from teaching things that may contradict their beliefs.
>
>>"Science is a religion, too." Uh huh. And lions were once vegetarians.
>
> This is a misrepresentation of the ID position, and a rather crude one
> at that. We want evolution taught, and the fact that there is a
> controversy about the extrapolations of macroevolution and the
> philosophical underpinnings of Naturalism taught as well. To deny
> that there is a controversy is bad science.
>
>
>>I also have a problem with religious fanatics who long for Armageddon so
>
>>much they want to help it along so Jesus will come back.
>
> Me too.
>
>
>>Pete objects to the child abuse chapter. The title of the chapter in the
>
>>book is "Is Religion Child Abuse?" and the answer is, "it can be."
>
> And of course, so can atheism. What is true?
>
>
>>Ritual
>>genital mutilation anyone? Enough said. Or how 'bout a Muslim child being
>
>>indoctrinated with the belief that believers of any other faith are less
>
>>that human and deserve to die and that the best thing in life to strive
> for
>>is martydom? Yes . . . child abuse.
>
> How DARE you criticize their CULTURE??? From what exalted
> height do you ge the right to do so? Remember, you have no absolutes
> so the elimination of clitoridectomy is only accomplished through the
> use of power to assert Sarah's own feminist, white, privileged little
> worldview on others. Pete was right wasn't he?
>
> Anyway, I gotta go drop off the teenager at a graduation, so this will
> have to wait...
>
> take care
>
> DC
>
>
> What about being forced to go to
>>catechism on saturday mornings when all the cartoons were on . . . well,
> at
>>the time, I felt abused, but I got over it. I do think it's wrong to
>>teach
>
>>a child your beliefs without also teaching them that there are other
>>beliefs, and non-beliefs. They should be encouraged to learn about other
>
>>religions, and to explore spirituality for themselves. Want your kid (or
>
>>anyone else) to believe as you do? Be a shining example of what your
>>beliefs do for you.
>>
>>But the silliest, tiredest, and most irritating argument in Pete's article
>
>>. . well, here's a few examples:
>>
>>"We are in the process - encouraged by Christopher - of abolishing
>>religion,
>
>>and so of abolishing conscience, too."
>>
>>"If you do not worship God, you end up worshipping power . . . "
>>
>>"But why should atheists care, or use such terms as "good" and "virtue"
>
>>anyway? "
>>
>>"But as soon as we have the power to do evil, we generally do."
>>
>>Yes folks, it's the absurd idea that without belief in God, there is
>>nothing
>
>>to stop one from evil behaviour. Maybe believers are drawn to religion
>
>>because they have so little faith in their own goodness. But I, for one
> of
>>millions, do not believe in God, Heaven, or Hell except as metaphors, and
>
>>yet here I am . . . no trail of dead bodies, no plundered wealth, no
>>criminal record, and I'm a nurse with a reputation for being exceptionally
>
>>empathetic and kind. People can be honest and kind just because they
>>respect the rights and feelings of others . . . no deity required. The
>
>>"Golden Rule" provides its own rewards and punishments.
>>
>>I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm gonna turn this argument around and
>
>>say that if someone really needs the threat of Hell, the enticement of
>>Heaven, and a list of God's rules to be a good person, perhaps he or she
> is
>>not in possession of a conscience.
>>
>>Anyway, I recommend the book. He's an amusing writer and makes a pretty
>
>>good case for the argument that religion is purely a human invention.
>>
>>Damn it, DC, you knew this would get me . . .
>>
>>Sarah
>>
>>
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:46625a22$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Forget the load of bollocks about impeaching Bush, and read this:
>>>
>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomm ent.html?in_article_id=459427&in_page_id=1787&in_a_s ource=
>>>
>>> GREAT piece.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>
>>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85906 is a reply to message #85896] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 21:24 |
gene lennon
Messages: 565
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
---=_linux4663941b
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
“I myself believe that human beings were genetically designed by extraterrestrials
using modified ape DNA who then turned us loose in the jungle to see what
would happen. That's right, we're just ants in some alien kid's terrarium,
and if we don't stop stinking up his room with CO2, he's gonna take us out
in the back yard and blast us with a garden hose.”
Yep, I believe that too. Now that there are two of us we should incorporate
and get us a tax shelter. Might as well go where the big boys go - www.startchurch.com
As long as we are there we should go for the twofer and get “Pastoral Letters”.
Just 29.00 more or 39.00 with the Holiday Gift Pack, which includes 4 Thanksgiving
letters, 4 Christmas Letters and 4 New Year's Letters.
Here is a sample letter. Please remember to remove the name “little Jessica”
and replace it with the actual name. Also replace the name of your wife with
her real name as well.
Condolence on the death of a newborn
Date
Name
Address
City, State & Zip
Dear Name,
My heart aches at the thought of the grief you must be feeling at this
time. I do not understand, any more than you do, why one so new in life,
and one who promised so much joy, has passed on after such a brief visit.
I am sure that from your short time with little Jessica there are many
special memories that you will always hold in your heart. Perhaps they are
moments you find painful to remember; yet ones you will never want to forget.
Though she was with you for only five days I know that the love you hold
in your heart for her will last a lifetime.
In times as difficult as these, lofty words and explanations don't seem
to mean much. So I do not offer any words except that Janelle and I love
you and are praying for you to have the grace and strength to endure the
journey ahead of you.
Losing someone is never easy. It can take months and years before we
feel capable of living joyfully again. I want you to know that we will be
here for you during your good days and your bad. I want you to feel free
to call us at any time and to come in. Many in our church share in the sorrow
of what has happened. They, too, are available to you with equally open arms
and hearts.
Sincerely,
Your name typed
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85910 is a reply to message #85906] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 21:27 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
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Hey, why not? It's no crazier a basis that the rest of 'em. Might even be
true!
Gotta have a name though, and if we're smart, we'll have mandatory donations
for pastoral counselling.
S
"Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:4663941b$1@linux...
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>
> "I myself believe that human beings were genetically designed by
> extraterrestrials
> using modified ape DNA who then turned us loose in the jungle to see what
> would happen. That's right, we're just ants in some alien kid's
> terrarium,
> and if we don't stop stinking up his room with CO2, he's gonna take us out
> in the back yard and blast us with a garden hose."
>
> Yep, I believe that too. Now that there are two of us we should
> incorporate
> and get us a tax shelter. Might as well go where the big boys go -
> www.startchurch.com
>
> As long as we are there we should go for the twofer and get "Pastoral
> Letters".
> Just 29.00 more or 39.00 with the Holiday Gift Pack, which includes 4
> Thanksgiving
> letters, 4 Christmas Letters and 4 New Year's Letters.
>
>
> Here is a sample letter. Please remember to remove the name "little
> Jessica"
> and replace it with the actual name. Also replace the name of your wife
> with
> her real name as well.
>
>
>
> Condolence on the death of a newborn
> Date
> Name
> Address
> City, State & Zip
> Dear Name,
> My heart aches at the thought of the grief you must be feeling at this
> time. I do not understand, any more than you do, why one so new in life,
> and one who promised so much joy, has passed on after such a brief visit.
> I am sure that from your short time with little Jessica there are many
> special memories that you will always hold in your heart. Perhaps they are
> moments you find painful to remember; yet ones you will never want to
> forget.
> Though she was with you for only five days I know that the love you hold
> in your heart for her will last a lifetime.
> In times as difficult as these, lofty words and explanations don't
> seem
> to mean much. So I do not offer any words except that Janelle and I love
> you and are praying for you to have the grace and strength to endure the
> journey ahead of you.
> Losing someone is never easy. It can take months and years before we
> feel capable of living joyfully again. I want you to know that we will be
> here for you during your good days and your bad. I want you to feel free
> to call us at any time and to come in. Many in our church share in the
> sorrow
> of what has happened. They, too, are available to you with equally open
> arms
> and hearts.
> Sincerely,
> Your name typed
>
>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85911 is a reply to message #85896] |
Sun, 03 June 2007 21:45 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
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|
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>OK, two quick things . . .
>
>One, while some atheists are as closed-minded and unjustifiably certain
of
>their position as the worst of Christian fundies, these are individuals,
and
>not representative of all atheists. Most atheists simply do not see any
>reason to believe in God, and to attempt to diminish that position by
>claiming that "lack of belief is itself belief" is just illogical. Some
>people need reason to believe, and given insufficient reason, will not
>believe.
But atheism is *not* lack of belief. Atheism is the claim to be the only
objective truth concerning matters of the Deity. As such it is philosophy
and belief, not objectivity. It corrupts belief by its pretense to objectivity,
and when it misuses science to support its belief, it corrupts and betrays
science. It says: "I know you are all deluded" and as such is the single
most blatant power grab by a belief system in the history of humanity,
while simultaneously denying it is belief. So in the end you have nothing
except hatred of the fundies and a sense of superiority. And you all wonder
why people doubt your moral foundations?
Both "I am sure that we were created" and "I am sure there is no God"
are philosophical and theological positions. One is wrong. Either is
supportable by reason. What do you believe? This great brown wave
of hatred of God and believers currently breaking over the culture
will succeed with many, but will fail wherever the people have a
foundation. You and I talked about this before. You admitted to
creating your own god-beliefs, and I warned you that you would have
no foundation when you needed one. And here you are...
>Two, every time someone tries to show me why I should believe the Bible
is
>the word of God (including a bunch of those little videos you linked . .
. I
>didn't watch all of them), there seems to be this hint of desperation to
>save their beliefs from the brutal onslaught of logic and in some cases,
>history. The problem is, most every argument I hear is basically "the Bible
>is the Word of God because it says it is."
Then you didn't watch many of those little videos. Now, go here,
http://www.annerice.com/bs_b_ChristTheLord.htm
Check out, buy, or borrow the book.
Read the afterword to discover why Anne, she of giant mind and many
vampires, became a believer and tell me how desperate she
sounds... Tell me which of her reasons to believe are delusions and
why you are so much more enlightened.
Remember either you or she are foolish...
>Some of the videos focused on the reliability of the authors of the three
>synoptic gospels, written 50 - 90 years after Jesus' death. I'm sure they
>were swell guys who felt they had an important story to tell, but I'm just
>speculating, as is anyone else who claims to know their methods and
>motivations.
Many highly-trusted historical sources, including Josephus, were
written later.
>But belief in the good intentions of Matthew, Mark, and Luke is yet another
>belief layered over the belief in question, i.e., "The Bible Is the Word
of
>God."
Unless there is no evidence against it. Indeed, one of the most
compelling issues is the fact that these people went to their deaths,
having made no money, gained no political power or influence in their
lifetimes, and did so willingly, despite the horrible deaths awaiting them,
for no earthly gain. Just imagine if it were actually true, and
Jesus was who he said he was....
>I don't really expect or need an answer to this, I just like to question
>beliefs.
Good then start with your own. Atheists are the worst sort of hypocrites...
sorry, but it is true.
>I suspect the reason people believe that the Bible is the Word of
>God is simply that they have chosen to believe that. And that's OK with
me.
>Whatever floats your boat.
Read Anne.
Then
http://www.apologetics.org/products_merechristianity_book.ht m
Then ask yourself why the Lewis book is full of love and grace and
the Hitchens/Dawkins/Harris crowd are such bitter. hateful little
men. Could they be following a different spirit?
>I myself believe that human beings were genetically designed by
>extraterrestrials using modified ape DNA who then turned us loose in the
>jungle to see what would happen. That's right, we're just ants in some
>alien kid's terrarium, and if we don't stop stinking up his room with CO2,
>he's gonna take us out in the back yard and blast us with a garden hose.
I think Bill L. has a religion for you? But then, you are likely to
ask too many questions huh?
At the end, you will only be satisfied with truth. I hope you find it.
DC
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85939 is a reply to message #85911] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 00:15 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> But atheism is *not* lack of belief. Atheism is the claim to be the only
> objective truth concerning matters of the Deity. As such it is philosophy
> and belief, not objectivity. It corrupts belief by its pretense to
> objectivity,
> and when it misuses science to support its belief, it corrupts and betrays
> science. It says: "I know you are all deluded" and as such is the single
> most blatant power grab by a belief system in the history of humanity,
> while simultaneously denying it is belief. So in the end you have nothing
> except hatred of the fundies and a sense of superiority. And you all
> wonder
> why people doubt your moral foundations?
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. If you translate "I don't believe in
God," to "I'm sure there's no God," then perhaps that is a reflection of
your own doubt about your beliefs. Believers walk a tightrope and every
time someone doubts their beliefs, it's like giving their balance pole a
smack. Believers tend to crave agreement to validate their beliefs. I'm
not claiming to know anything about the origins of the universe, I'm only
saying I do not believe what you believe about it. Sorry, it's simply lack
of belief, and no matter how much that disturbs your certainty in your
beliefs, lack of belief is not a belief. And anyone who doubts my moral
foundations simply because I don't believe in their God has reasoning
problems. And don't even talk to me about atheists' "superiority." You're
saved, and I'm not, right? Who's being superiour?
> Both "I am sure that we were created" and "I am sure there is no God"
> are philosophical and theological positions. One is wrong. Either is
> supportable by reason. What do you believe? This great brown wave
> of hatred of God and believers currently breaking over the culture
> will succeed with many, but will fail wherever the people have a
> foundation. You and I talked about this before. You admitted to
> creating your own god-beliefs, and I warned you that you would have
> no foundation when you needed one. And here you are...
What the f' are you talking about? Here I am? Where? Listen, I can't
believe in things that don't make sense to me. And I don't want anything to
do with a bloodthirsty, primitive God whose wrath can be appeased by the
sacrifice of sheep, cattle, or sons. Nor do I want anything to do with a
religion that believes that we "inherit" our ancestors sins, and that God
sacrificed his "son" (Lamb of God) to give us all a fresh start. What, he
was appeasing his own wrath? Why is a Supreme Being wrathful, and vengeful,
and even jealous? That doesn't sound very supreme. Sorry, "Jesus died for
your sins" has no meaning for me. My sins are forgiven because someone else
died? How does this make sense?
> Check out, buy, or borrow the book.
> Read the afterword to discover why Anne, she of giant mind and many
> vampires, became a believer and tell me how desperate she
> sounds... Tell me which of her reasons to believe are delusions and
> why you are so much more enlightened.
> Remember either you or she are foolish...
I've been listening to other peoples' reasons to believe for about 40 years
now, without any of them convincing me. What makes you think the Vampire
Queen's reasons will make any more sense to me? They're just going to be
conclusions based on a premise that I don't accept. If you want to scan the
afterword and send it to me, I'll read it, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.
>>But belief in the good intentions of Matthew, Mark, and Luke is yet
>>another
>
>>belief layered over the belief in question, i.e., "The Bible Is the Word
> of
>>God."
>
> Unless there is no evidence against it. Indeed, one of the most
> compelling issues is the fact that these people went to their deaths,
> having made no money, gained no political power or influence in their
> lifetimes, and did so willingly, despite the horrible deaths awaiting
> them,
> for no earthly gain. Just imagine if it were actually true, and
> Jesus was who he said he was....
There's no evidence against the idea that humans were genetically engineered
by aliens, either. Do you believe that theory? What about past lives?
That's a popular belief which there's no evidence against. I think evidence
in favor of an idea carries more weight than lack of evidence against. I
believe giant invisible grasshoppers live on Venus and control us with their
brain waves. Prove that wrong.
>>I don't really expect or need an answer to this, I just like to question
>>beliefs.
>
> Good then start with your own. Atheists are the worst sort of
> hypocrites...
> sorry, but it is true.
Well, no, I'm sorry, but that is not at all true. How do you think I came
to reject Christianity? I kind of had to be in it first, right? I know a
lot of non-believers, probably more than believers. All but a few were
raised Christian, and many, myself included tried other belief systems on
for size. There is nothing hypocritical about refusing to accept something
as true unless you yourself have experienced it as true, in fact, would that
be the opposite of hypocrisy?
I've spent my life questioning my beliefs, and will continue to do so. And
just to bare my soul a little among friends, I will tell you that there have
been times when I've been so down and desperate that I begged aloud for God
or Jesus or someone out there to save me, and . . . . . . nothing. You know
why? It only works if you believe, and saying you believe is not believing.
>
>
> Read Anne.
>
> Then
>
> http://www.apologetics.org/products_merechristianity_book.ht m
>
> Then ask yourself why the Lewis book is full of love and grace and
> the Hitchens/Dawkins/Harris crowd are such bitter. hateful little
> men. Could they be following a different spirit?
Haven't read Dawkins, but I haven't found Hitchens or Harris to be
especially bitter or hateful, merely justifiably critical.
You read "God Is Not Great" or "The End of Faith" then I'll read something
you think is convincing.
S
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85940 is a reply to message #85939] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 01:01 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. If you translate "I don't believe
in
>God," to "I'm sure there's no God," then perhaps that is a reflection of
>your own doubt about your beliefs.
No, you used the term atheist, not me. You defended atheism as
simply being people with doubts. Perhaps you meant agnosticism, but
since Hitchens, with whom you agree on most major points, goes beyond
even atheism (which most certainly *does* assert knowledge of no-
deity) to anti-theism which not only is certain of it, but is evangelical
in
its goals and pejorative to its opponents, I think you must deal with the
logical results of your position.
>Believers walk a tightrope and every
>time someone doubts their beliefs, it's like giving their balance pole a
>smack. Believers tend to crave agreement to validate their beliefs.
As do atheists who have their wrenching, wracking doubts that they
are too scared to admit. Personally, I crave the exploration of disbelief
because I think that intelligent people deserve better.
>I'm
>not claiming to know anything about the origins of the universe, I'm only
>saying I do not believe what you believe about it. Sorry, it's simply lack
>of belief, and no matter how much that disturbs your certainty in your
>beliefs, lack of belief is not a belief.
It doesn't disturb me at all. However, I think you should turn your
doubt a little wider...
>And anyone who doubts my moral
>foundations simply because I don't believe in their God has reasoning
>problems. And don't even talk to me about atheists' "superiority." You're
>saved, and I'm not, right? Who's being superiour?
Hitchens, that's who, and he admits it. It's one of his few payoffs...
When you believe in negation, there is little else left.
>What the f' are you talking about? Here I am? Where?
Defenseless against the material hordes.
>Listen, I can't
>believe in things that don't make sense to me. And I don't want anything
to
>do with a bloodthirsty, primitive God whose wrath can be appeased by the
>sacrifice of sheep, cattle, or sons. Nor do I want anything to do with
a
>religion that believes that we "inherit" our ancestors sins, and that God
>sacrificed his "son" (Lamb of God) to give us all a fresh start. What,
he
>was appeasing his own wrath? Why is a Supreme Being wrathful, and vengeful,
>and even jealous? That doesn't sound very supreme. Sorry, "Jesus died
for
>your sins" has no meaning for me. My sins are forgiven because someone
else
>died? How does this make sense?
Because you can never, ever fix yourself. Sin, evil if you will, kills.
The wages of sin are death. That is what you deserve and what you
will have in the natural world. The gift of God is eternal life.
It's really quite simple. Restored relationship, restored character,
all made possible by a gift.
>I've been listening to other peoples' reasons to believe for about 40 years
>now, without any of them convincing me. What makes you think the Vampire
>Queen's reasons will make any more sense to me?
Nothing. I had to try though. I care about you.
>They're just going to be
>conclusions based on a premise that I don't accept. If you want to scan
the
>afterword and send it to me, I'll read it, but I wouldn't get your hopes
up.
I'll do it.
>There's no evidence against the idea that humans were genetically engineered
>by aliens, either.
Not much for it either. Certainly no saints going to their deaths for it.
>Well, no, I'm sorry, but that is not at all true. How do you think I came
>to reject Christianity? I kind of had to be in it first, right? I know
a
>lot of non-believers, probably more than believers. All but a few were
>raised Christian, and many, myself included tried other belief systems on
>for size. There is nothing hypocritical about refusing to accept something
>as true unless you yourself have experienced it as true, in fact, would
that
>be the opposite of hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is in having such a jolly good time blasting the
fundies while leaving the atheists so much respect. You assume one
belief is true and act upon it. You are a believer.
>I've spent my life questioning my beliefs, and will continue to do so.
And
>just to bare my soul a little among friends, I will tell you that there
have
>been times when I've been so down and desperate that I begged aloud for
God
>or Jesus or someone out there to save me, and . . . . . . nothing. You
know
>why? It only works if you believe, and saying you believe is not believing.
Yeah, it requires full commitment and humility. I can't tell you how hard
that has been for me... There have been times I REALLY do not like
God one little bit. Surprised?
But he has never betrayed me and I continue to manage to get back
on my knees when I need to...
>Haven't read Dawkins, but I haven't found Hitchens or Harris to be
>especially bitter or hateful, merely justifiably critical.
>You read "God Is Not Great" or "The End of Faith" then I'll read something
>you think is convincing.
I have seen and read interviews with both Harris and Dawkins. I think
Dennis Prager pretty much took Harris apart. I can find the piece if
you are interested. Dawkins has said that "evolution is the study of
things that appear to be designed, but are not" and I have never seen
a more bald-faced simple assertion of belief in my life.
What do you find compelling about these books?
take care
DC
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85963 is a reply to message #85940] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 07:24 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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a·the·ism n.
1.. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
American Heritage Dictionaryag·nos·ti·cism n.
1.. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute
truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of
exact knowledge.
2.. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or
that God does not exist.
American Heritage Dictionary
Sign me up for disbelief, with a side of agnosticism #2.
The more I think about this, the more I regret engaging in this worn out and
pointless argument for the umpteen thousandth time.
There are reasons that people are attacking religion, perhaps moreso now
than ever before.
One reason, the obvious one, is the bloody and hypocritical history of
religion. One may argue that it is unfair to judge religion now by the sins
of the past, but the fact is that among some factions of religion, the blood
and hypocrisy continue.
Another reason, speaking of hypocrisy, is the disturbing following of people
like Falwell (RIP), Robertson, Dobson, etc., who use tiny bits of the Bible
to support their regressive political views and ignore the rest. A lot of
us are really sick of influencial "Christians" who seem so remarkably
un-Christ-like.
A lot of people believe, understandably, that perhaps religion does more
harm than good. A lot of people worry, understandably, about the
possibility of a nuclear "holy war." The recent crop of anti-religious
books, and the resurgence of groups like the Freedom From Religion
Foundation reflect these concerns.
Another reason people, such as myself, attack religion is being told in some
arrogant, unjustifiably certain way that "if you don't believe as I believe,
you are doomed." Maybe they say this because they are truly concerned for
my immortal soul. Or maybe it's because the mere fact of my disbelieving
their cherished means of dealing with suffering and death brings a sense of
terror that they might be wrong. Having spent some time as a proselytizing
believer, I suspect the latter. Doubt is contagious. Like misery, religion
loves company.
One big problem with trying to argue with a believer is that there is no way
to explain why I don't believe without insulting the believer. If I say, "I
don't believe this because it's illogical," then by default, I'm calling
your reasoning ability into doubt. And it's pointless anyway, because I'm
not going to believe something that doesn't make sense to me, and you're not
going to let go of a firmly fixed belief. It's also a waste of time to
argue something that can't be proved or disproved., e.g., the existence of
God, with someone who already "knows" the answer.
Also, according to you, if I don't give equal validity to the beliefs of
atheists and fundies, I'm a hypocrite. Atheism makes more sense to me than
fundamentalism for reasons I could probably fill my own book with. Having a
point of view does not make one a hypocrite, as far as I know.
You know, Scientology would probably tell you that you've been around for
many, many lifetimes, and that all the loss and death and foul deeds of
those lives are what's between you and spiritual freedom. I think they
might also tell you that you have a bunch of disembodied beings sharing your
body with you because they're too degraded to have one of their own, or some
such thing. Scientology's "gift of eternal life" depends upon using their
pastoral counselling technology to deal with those past lives and
disembodied beings. (Did I get that right, Bill? Close?) They believe
this just as fervently as you believe, and attest to the same kind of
life-changing rewards as born again Christians do. What if they're right?
How do you know they're not? Do you give this belief as much validity as
yours? And if not, doesn't that make you a hypocrite by your reasoning?
You asked what I "find compelling about these books." Well, I've only read
Harris and Hitchens, and I don't know about "compelling", but I find it
encouraging that intelligent, uncompromising, and thorough challenges to
religion are enjoying some mass market appeal. Hopefully it will inspire
some people to question their beliefs, and maybe it will remind our
representatives that the secular portions of their constituencies are just
as important as the noisy followers of loons like James Dobson.
Anyway, argue away if you like, I'm done.
Sarah
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85968 is a reply to message #85963] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 08:42 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>a·the·ism n.
> 1.. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
>American Heritage Dictionaryag·nos·ti·cism n.
> 1.. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute
>truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of
>exact knowledge.
Oh yes. Thank you so much for posting this! Doctrine! I love it!
This is the core of it. And further, it equates atheism with naturalism
which we have been asserting for years now.
INDEED, the idea that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact
knowledge is doctrine and it is belief.
> 2.. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists
or
>that God does not exist.
> American Heritage Dictionary
And that wraps it up. So much for the objectivity of atheism.
It is just another belief.
>There are reasons that people are attacking religion, perhaps moreso now
>than ever before.
Oh absolutely... We may differ on those reasons however.
>One reason, the obvious one, is the bloody and hypocritical history of
>religion.
Dramatically outdone by the even bloodier and more miserable,
history of atheism.
>Another reason, speaking of hypocrisy, is the disturbing following of people
>like Falwell (RIP), Robertson, Dobson, etc., who use tiny bits of the Bible
>to support their regressive political views and ignore the rest. A lot
of
>us are really sick of influencial "Christians" who seem so remarkably
>un-Christ-like.
Agreed, and some of us are even sick of those who couldn't care less about
Christ, using him only when it suits their political goals and ignoring
him the rest of the time....
>A lot of people believe, understandably, that perhaps religion does more
>harm than good.
And I can tell you that honest and committed belief in Jesus Christ is
not among your sample...
>A lot of people worry, understandably, about the
>possibility of a nuclear "holy war." The recent crop of anti-religious
>books, and the resurgence of groups like the Freedom From Religion
>Foundation reflect these concerns.
Or they reflect the assertion of a truly evil belief system that will cost
millions their very souls... You choose.
Be aware of the lives (and deaths) of atheists however. They do not
tend to be happy ones.
>Another reason people, such as myself, attack religion is being told in
some
>arrogant, unjustifiably certain way that "if you don't believe as I believe,
>you are doomed."
No, I would say that if you do not follow the light you are given,
you are doomed. There is little light in hating faith...
?Maybe they say this because they are truly concerned for
>my immortal soul. Or maybe it's because the mere fact of my disbelieving
>their cherished means of dealing with suffering and death brings a sense
of
>terror that they might be wrong. Having spent some time as a proselytizing
>believer, I suspect the latter. Doubt is contagious. Like misery, religion
>loves company.
Doubt is wonderful. It is the rebar in the house of faith. I cherish it,
while remembering its limits and never treating it as proof.
>One big problem with trying to argue with a believer is that there is no
way
>to explain why I don't believe without insulting the believer. If I say,
"I
>don't believe this because it's illogical," then by default, I'm calling
>your reasoning ability into doubt. And it's pointless anyway, because I'm
>not going to believe something that doesn't make sense to me, and you're
not
>going to let go of a firmly fixed belief. It's also a waste of time to
>argue something that can't be proved or disproved., e.g., the existence
of
>God, with someone who already "knows" the answer.
Such is the result of coming to understand that even the denying
of absolutes requires them.
Christians are to forgive even those who despise them. At least you
understand what is at stake.
>Also, according to you, if I don't give equal validity to the beliefs of
>atheists and fundies, I'm a hypocrite.
Not at all! What a misrepresentation... I asked you to give equal
doubt to both, not validity. Hypocrisy is laughing at Falwell while
bowing to Dawkins...
>Atheism makes more sense to me than
>fundamentalism for reasons I could probably fill my own book with. Having
a
>point of view does not make one a hypocrite, as far as I know.
See above. BTW, fundamentalism has traditionally been defined as
belief in a literal word-by-word inspiration of scripture (the King James
of course). It is now being refined to mean anyone who thinks that
God is anything but a metaphor. To believe that Jesus was who he said
he was is to now be a fundie! Well count me in. My Lord wore a
crown of thorns, I can handle a silly epithet. (I still don't believe in
verbal inspiration though...)
>You know, Scientology would probably tell you that you've been around for
>many, many lifetimes, and that all the loss and death and foul deeds of
>those lives are what's between you and spiritual freedom. I think they
>might also tell you that you have a bunch of disembodied beings sharing
your
>body with you because they're too degraded to have one of their own, or
some
>such thing. Scientology's "gift of eternal life" depends upon using their
>pastoral counselling technology to deal with those past lives and
>disembodied beings. (Did I get that right, Bill? Close?) They believe
>this just as fervently as you believe, and attest to the same kind of
>life-changing rewards as born again Christians do. What if they're right?
>How do you know they're not?
Because I know that the system was founded entirely by a mere man.
I know that to believe in it I must not believe in Jesus Christ as my
Lord and Saviour.
And I am convinced that the evidence for Christ is stronger.
>You asked what I "find compelling about these books." Well, I've only read
>Harris and Hitchens, and I don't know about "compelling", but I find it
>encouraging that intelligent, uncompromising, and thorough challenges to
>religion are enjoying some mass market appeal. Hopefully it will inspire
>some people to question their beliefs, and maybe it will remind our
>representatives that the secular portions of their constituencies are just
>as important as the noisy followers of loons like James Dobson.
And of course, Harris is not a loon... And you are a neutral observer
of course...
>Anyway, argue away if you like, I'm done.
>
>Sarah
Have a good day and may you not have too many psych patients or
hygiene cases...
DC
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85970 is a reply to message #85968] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 09:06 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"If you believe in God and He isn't real you have lost nothing. If you don't
believe in God and He is real, you have lost your soul."-Pascal.
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>a·the·ism n.
>> 1.. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
>>American Heritage Dictionaryag·nos·ti·cism n.
>> 1.. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute
>
>>truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of
>
>>exact knowledge.
>
>Oh yes. Thank you so much for posting this! Doctrine! I love it!
>
>This is the core of it. And further, it equates atheism with naturalism
>which we have been asserting for years now.
>
>INDEED, the idea that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact
>knowledge is doctrine and it is belief.
>
>
>> 2.. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists
>or
>>that God does not exist.
>> American Heritage Dictionary
>
>And that wraps it up. So much for the objectivity of atheism.
>
>It is just another belief.
>
>
>>There are reasons that people are attacking religion, perhaps moreso now
>
>>than ever before.
>
>Oh absolutely... We may differ on those reasons however.
>
>
>>One reason, the obvious one, is the bloody and hypocritical history of
>>religion.
>
>Dramatically outdone by the even bloodier and more miserable,
>history of atheism.
>
>>Another reason, speaking of hypocrisy, is the disturbing following of people
>
>>like Falwell (RIP), Robertson, Dobson, etc., who use tiny bits of the Bible
>
>>to support their regressive political views and ignore the rest. A lot
>of
>>us are really sick of influencial "Christians" who seem so remarkably
>>un-Christ-like.
>
>Agreed, and some of us are even sick of those who couldn't care less about
>Christ, using him only when it suits their political goals and ignoring
>him the rest of the time....
>
>
>>A lot of people believe, understandably, that perhaps religion does more
>
>>harm than good.
>
>And I can tell you that honest and committed belief in Jesus Christ is
>not among your sample...
>
>>A lot of people worry, understandably, about the
>>possibility of a nuclear "holy war." The recent crop of anti-religious
>
>>books, and the resurgence of groups like the Freedom From Religion
>>Foundation reflect these concerns.
>
>Or they reflect the assertion of a truly evil belief system that will cost
>millions their very souls... You choose.
>
>Be aware of the lives (and deaths) of atheists however. They do not
>tend to be happy ones.
>
>
>>Another reason people, such as myself, attack religion is being told in
>some
>>arrogant, unjustifiably certain way that "if you don't believe as I believe,
>
>>you are doomed."
>
>No, I would say that if you do not follow the light you are given,
>you are doomed. There is little light in hating faith...
>
>
>?Maybe they say this because they are truly concerned for
>>my immortal soul. Or maybe it's because the mere fact of my disbelieving
>
>>their cherished means of dealing with suffering and death brings a sense
>of
>>terror that they might be wrong. Having spent some time as a proselytizing
>
>>believer, I suspect the latter. Doubt is contagious. Like misery, religion
>
>>loves company.
>
>Doubt is wonderful. It is the rebar in the house of faith. I cherish it,
>while remembering its limits and never treating it as proof.
>
>
>>One big problem with trying to argue with a believer is that there is no
>way
>>to explain why I don't believe without insulting the believer. If I say,
>"I
>>don't believe this because it's illogical," then by default, I'm calling
>
>>your reasoning ability into doubt. And it's pointless anyway, because
I'm
>
>>not going to believe something that doesn't make sense to me, and you're
>not
>>going to let go of a firmly fixed belief. It's also a waste of time to
>
>>argue something that can't be proved or disproved., e.g., the existence
>of
>>God, with someone who already "knows" the answer.
>
>Such is the result of coming to understand that even the denying
>of absolutes requires them.
>
>Christians are to forgive even those who despise them. At least you
>understand what is at stake.
>
>
>>Also, according to you, if I don't give equal validity to the beliefs of
>
>>atheists and fundies, I'm a hypocrite.
>
>Not at all! What a misrepresentation... I asked you to give equal
>doubt to both, not validity. Hypocrisy is laughing at Falwell while
>bowing to Dawkins...
>
>>Atheism makes more sense to me than
>>fundamentalism for reasons I could probably fill my own book with. Having
>a
>>point of view does not make one a hypocrite, as far as I know.
>
>See above. BTW, fundamentalism has traditionally been defined as
>belief in a literal word-by-word inspiration of scripture (the King James
>of course). It is now being refined to mean anyone who thinks that
>God is anything but a metaphor. To believe that Jesus was who he said
>he was is to now be a fundie! Well count me in. My Lord wore a
>crown of thorns, I can handle a silly epithet. (I still don't believe
in
>verbal inspiration though...)
>
>
>>You know, Scientology would probably tell you that you've been around for
>
>>many, many lifetimes, and that all the loss and death and foul deeds of
>
>>those lives are what's between you and spiritual freedom. I think they
>
>>might also tell you that you have a bunch of disembodied beings sharing
>your
>>body with you because they're too degraded to have one of their own, or
>some
>>such thing. Scientology's "gift of eternal life" depends upon using their
>
>>pastoral counselling technology to deal with those past lives and
>>disembodied beings. (Did I get that right, Bill? Close?) They believe
>
>>this just as fervently as you believe, and attest to the same kind of
>>life-changing rewards as born again Christians do. What if they're right?
>
>>How do you know they're not?
>
>Because I know that the system was founded entirely by a mere man.
>I know that to believe in it I must not believe in Jesus Christ as my
>Lord and Saviour.
>And I am convinced that the evidence for Christ is stronger.
>
>
>
>>You asked what I "find compelling about these books." Well, I've only
read
>
>>Harris and Hitchens, and I don't know about "compelling", but I find it
>
>>encouraging that intelligent, uncompromising, and thorough challenges to
>
>>religion are enjoying some mass market appeal. Hopefully it will inspire
>
>>some people to question their beliefs, and maybe it will remind our
>>representatives that the secular portions of their constituencies are just
>
>>as important as the noisy followers of loons like James Dobson.
>
>And of course, Harris is not a loon... And you are a neutral observer
>of course...
>
>>Anyway, argue away if you like, I'm done.
>>
>>Sarah
>
>Have a good day and may you not have too many psych patients or
>hygiene cases...
>
>DC
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85977 is a reply to message #85972] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 09:34 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
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If I was going to convert to a traditional religion, I would want to pick
> it based on the quality of its Heaven (and the ease of entry).
Hehe..........I'd probably end up being a Jew. Seriously. It's really wierd.
My first *best friend* was Jew. My first *girlfriend* was a Jew. Throughout
my lifetime and even now I've got probably as many Jewish friends as I do
any others that proscribe to any religion. When I'm in a large group of
people and there are conversations of various kinds going on in the area and
people end up clustering together in conversation, nine times out of ten, if
the conversation turns to anything that would indicate what religion people
in the group are professing, I find that I'm hanging out with the Jews. It's
wierd. I don't profess to be a member of any religion at all. I have no
particular reason that I'm aware of to like or dislike Jews, or for Jews to
like me. Maybe what I like about Jews is that they don't hassle me about
wanting me to become a Jew and I don't hassle them about wanting to be
anything other than a Jew..
Life is strange,
;o)
"Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:46643d1a$1@linux...
>
> FYI -
>
> 1. I think the earth is around four and a half billion years old. I have
> no direct evidence but I believe the prevailing science.
>
>
> 2. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so I say let everyone in Heaven. Why
> not. Seems the "Christian" thing to do.
>
>
> If I was going to convert to a traditional religion, I would want to pick
> it based on the quality of its Heaven (and the ease of entry). I think the
> traditional Christian Heaven is a little too low key for me, but I do like
> the Catholic concept of last minute repentance / penitence.
>
> Gene
>
> "Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>DC. Before I drop this I would like you to answer two questions for me.
> I
>>will help me greatly with any future discussions about religion with you.
>>
>>1. How old is the earth? Approximately.
>>
>>2. What percentage of people living on the earth could get into Heaven if
>>they don't screw anything up? About 35 percent of the earths population
> is
>>Christian, but I don't think you believe all Christians are eligible. What
>>percent of Christians are eligible? Is anyone else eligible?
>>
>>Gene
>>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85979 is a reply to message #85977] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 09:48 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
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too restrictive cooking for me...but then a good knish is hard to
beat.
On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:34:10 -0600, "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>
wrote:
> If I was going to convert to a traditional religion, I would want to pick
>> it based on the quality of its Heaven (and the ease of entry).
>
>Hehe..........I'd probably end up being a Jew. Seriously. It's really wierd.
>My first *best friend* was Jew. My first *girlfriend* was a Jew. Throughout
>my lifetime and even now I've got probably as many Jewish friends as I do
>any others that proscribe to any religion. When I'm in a large group of
>people and there are conversations of various kinds going on in the area and
>people end up clustering together in conversation, nine times out of ten, if
>the conversation turns to anything that would indicate what religion people
>in the group are professing, I find that I'm hanging out with the Jews. It's
>wierd. I don't profess to be a member of any religion at all. I have no
>particular reason that I'm aware of to like or dislike Jews, or for Jews to
>like me. Maybe what I like about Jews is that they don't hassle me about
>wanting me to become a Jew and I don't hassle them about wanting to be
>anything other than a Jew..
>
>Life is strange,
>
>;o)
>
>
>
>"Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote in message
>news:46643d1a$1@linux...
>>
>> FYI -
>>
>> 1. I think the earth is around four and a half billion years old. I have
>> no direct evidence but I believe the prevailing science.
>>
>>
>> 2. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so I say let everyone in Heaven. Why
>> not. Seems the "Christian" thing to do.
>>
>>
>> If I was going to convert to a traditional religion, I would want to pick
>> it based on the quality of its Heaven (and the ease of entry). I think the
>> traditional Christian Heaven is a little too low key for me, but I do like
>> the Catholic concept of last minute repentance / penitence.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> "Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>DC. Before I drop this I would like you to answer two questions for me.
>> I
>>>will help me greatly with any future discussions about religion with you.
>>>
>>>1. How old is the earth? Approximately.
>>>
>>>2. What percentage of people living on the earth could get into Heaven if
>>>they don't screw anything up? About 35 percent of the earths population
>> is
>>>Christian, but I don't think you believe all Christians are eligible. What
>>>percent of Christians are eligible? Is anyone else eligible?
>>>
>>>Gene
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Hitchens vs. Hitchens... [message #85984 is a reply to message #85971] |
Mon, 04 June 2007 10:42 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I know this was for DC, but I will give you some answers.
We don't really know how old the earth is. We are not sure how much time
seven days and nights of creation actually are. Our days and nights as we
know it today are based on the sun and the earths rotation. The time of
creation may have been billions of years. Time as we know it today is some
what based on Christ birth. B.C., Before Christ, and A.D. Anno Domini.
There might be some thing to this.
It is not based on percentages! It says in the bible, that you must be baptized
and believe in Jesus Christ. You must accept Christ as your savior. It's
not based on good works, although If you believe, you will follow the ten
commandments, do good works and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I think that any of you that don't believe, especially if you do not have
good knowledge, should get an easy to read version of the bible and read
it cover to cover a few times. You would be able to speak to Christianity
more effectively, and have first hand knowledge having read the bible. Then
you could decide if the number one selling book has anything good in it.
Not everything in the bible is to be taken literally. When it says, if your
eyes offend you, pluck them out, it is making a point. It's not to be taken
literally. If it were, after five minutes of watching TV we'd all be blind.
It's a lack of understanding, that's why you should read the bible for yourselves.
By the way, Christians are not perfect. We sin and do bad things on a regular
basis, that's why we needed forgiveness. We're no angels. We're the sinners.
The angels are in Heaven.
James
"Gene Lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>DC. Before I drop this I would like you to answer two questions for me.
I
>will help me greatly with any future discussions about religion with you.
>
>1. How old is the earth? Approximately.
>
>2. What percentage of people living on the earth could get into Heaven if
>they don’t screw anything up? About 35 percent of the earths population
is
>Christian, but I don’t think you believe all Christians are eligible. What
>percent of Christians are eligible? Is anyone else eligible?
>
>Gene
>
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