Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW
| OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61634] |
Mon, 19 December 2005 23:10  |
![Deej [1] is currently offline](/theme/PARIS_Forum_Template/images/offline.png "Deej [1] is currently offline")
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ill get a system drive error (as invalid system drive/coronary
> arrest) when you reinsert it into the caddy unless you remove the other
> drives from their caddies first, insert the system drive solo, then reboot
> on the single system drive, then shut down, reinsert all of the other
> drives
> and then reboot.
>
> Also, with as many PCI cards as I've got, (3 x RME's and 4 x UAD-1's in a
> Magma) the IRQ less than equal BSOD can rear it's ugly head. The trick is
> to
> turn off the Magma (or pull the PCI cards from the mobo slots), reboot
> until
> you get the system happy again, then shut down, reinstall the Magma host
> card (or the PCI cards in the mobo) and reboot. The 4 x UAD cards are the
> issue in mine. It takes a while to get all of their addresses sorted out
> it
> seems. Eventually everything stabilized.
>
> Lastly and most annoying for me was getting the Houston controller to work
> with Cubase SX. I finally figured it out. Cubase SX has to be loaded
> before
> the system ever sees the Houston driver. It won't do to
> uninstall/reinstall
> the driver if the Houston driver is loaded before SX is loaded. My
> experience was that SX will *never* see that driver and the controller
> will
> not work unless SX is loaded before the controller driver. Took me a whole
> day to figure this one out.
>
>It's like autotune is out of sync...I'll try an experiment today if I can
and report back what happens as I can't remember if it's ahead ot lagging/
DOn
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:43a78dfb$1@linux...
>
> Don.....it's....."0" Actually I'm not sure about total 0, as I've never
> tested
> it, but it's real world 0 for me, on
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61640 is a reply to message #61637] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 01:03  |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
d trim it to 5 seconds will it still
>be streaming from hard drive the whole time?
>
>Also, do automated mutes continue streaming from disk? I'm betting
>they both stream and need to be rendered to fix it.
>
>Is there a way to verify this?
>
>
>Oh, I tried compact and as reported, it did nothing. Oh well.Hehehe......well, that's perhaps an extreme interpretation of the situation,
but I've basically been cobbling together something here out of new and used
parts that just don't like to play with each other sometimes but when
working, will do what I had envisioned back in 1997 when I bought Paris.
It's just taken such a huge amount of time and thinking outside the box to
get it all happening the way *I* want it to work. The part that is downright
crazy is the insistence on building this whole Frankenstein with Paris at
it's core and totally integrated in everything that happens here. I mean,
*nothing happens without Paris involved. When I'm tracking, I'm tracking to
Paris, but I'm using both Paris/Mytek and RME converters which are routed
through Totalmix and Cubase SX and then back into Paris. Then when I'm
mixing, Paris is the master timeline/sync source along with panning and aux
sends/returns post compression EQ'ing and whatever else. Now that native
DAWs have so much processing power, that's just plain wierd, don't you
think? I don't know.....but I like the way it sounds and the wierdest thing
about it is that I'm comfortable driving this jalopy when things could be so
much simpler and elegant. I dunno.......maybe not perverted, but somewhat
eccentric perhaps??.......but then again, I'm not the only one. I mean,
we're all here, right?
;O)
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:43a7cba0$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >...has to be constantly screwing around with something just to
> >find out wat it will do that it's not meant to do. I guess I'm sort of
> >perverted.
> >;o)
>
> EEeeewww... that took me by surprise! ;o)Eccentric I'd say definately, but then what's life if you don't go get what
you want...
I mean everybody can buy a Subaru WRX, but not everybody can tweak the carby
on an old chevy V8 and get it purring just right. Gotta take the pleasures
where you find them. :o)
On a side note, and a really cool, or perhaps really smooth one at that,
I just went and bought a digital set top box for my TV. I'm not up to date
with how digital TV is going over in the U.S. but we were early intoducers
of it over here, but its taken time to catch on. It's getting much more economical
now though. I just went to my local grocery supermarket and they had a set
top box for digital TV for just $75. So how does it help me?
Well it gives me a couple of extra channels, and the extra channels happen
to be for ABC and SBS, and the ABC one shows some really cool stuff I'll
want to see, and repeats the docos and current affairs on the main ABC station,
which I'll find really handy, but better still...
....I'm now listening to jazz on ABC Dig Jazz radio. It's the only completely
jazz dedicated radio station we have here, and I must say, while I wondered
breifly whether I could actually spare the $75 over christmas, I'm mighty
glad I bought it. And much as I can tell that the station is clearly compressed
digital audio, the sound quality is decidedly better than FM radio. In particular
the stereo separation is way better than I'd expect on FM. I'm not sure what
compression they're using, but it sounds ok.
And my TV brings up
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61641 is a reply to message #61636] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 02:13 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
a picture of an open magazine, a cup of coffee, and a
saxophone. ;o) Oddly it seems to do this for every radio station regardless
of whether it's jazz, but it seems particularily relevent for the jazz station.
:o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Hehehe......well, that's perhaps an extreme interpretation of the situation,
>but I've basically been cobbling together something here out of new and
used
>parts that just don't like to play with each other sometimes but when
>working, will do what I had envisioned back in 1997 when I bought Paris.
>It's just taken such a huge amount of time and thinking outside the box
to
>get it all happening the way *I* want it to work. The part that is downright
>crazy is the insistence on building this whole Frankenstein with Paris at
>it's core and totally integrated in everything that happens here. I mean,
>*nothing happens without Paris involved. When I'm tracking, I'm tracking
to
>Paris, but I'm using both Paris/Mytek and RME converters which are routed
>through Totalmix and Cubase SX and then back into Paris. Then when I'm
>mixing, Paris is the master timeline/sync source along with panning and
aux
>sends/returns post compression EQ'ing and whatever else. Now that native
>DAWs have so much processing power, that's just plain wierd, don't you
>think? I don't know.....but I like the way it sounds and the wierdest thing
>about it is that I'm comfortable driving this jalopy when things could be
so
>much simpler and elegant. I dunno.......maybe not perverted, but somewhat
>eccentric perhaps??.......but then again, I'm not the only one. I mean,
>we're all here, right?
>
>;O)
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:43a7cba0$1@linux...
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >...has to be constantly screwing around with something just to
>> >find out wat it will do that it's not meant to do. I guess I'm sort of
>> >perverted.
>> >;o)
>>
>> EEeeewww... that took me by surprise! ;o)
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Now.....what to do with my old Cubase DAW???........I'm thinking maybe one
>of those EMU interfaces running Emulator X maybe???
Yeah, or perhaps a dedicated box running a convolution reverb?
It'd be be like having a couple of Lexi 480L's without having
to lay out all that dough.
You could probably run several instances of convo reverb, plus
a number of VSTi's on it before it started to bog down, dontcha
think?
NeilHi all. I need to know what the voltage is on the EDS card. Does anyone know
this? I am going to try a PCI extender because my new case won't allow the
EDS card where the motherboard is located. Anyone? thanks... ~ EdThanks Chuck,I will look into those suggestions...Merry Christmas, zan
"Chuck" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:43a595c7$1@linux...
>
> Zan,
>
> I'm not sure what software you are using, but there are a couple of things
> that affect playability of vsynths/samplers..
>
> I've used both midiman and edirol USB keyboards, and apart from having a
> mushy, crappy feel and really bad velocity curves that I could never seem
> to correct (black keys louder than white) they are playable in realtime.
> Now I only use the edirol for organ and synth sounds that don't require
> the finesse required for piano.
>
> In cubase I found do not use 'emulated' midi ports (there are articles on
> the net on how to stop this).
>
> Here are some ideas:
>
> Don't use the keyboard in a usb hub. Power the keyboard with an adapter
> when using USB (not the USB power). Check the bios for a 'usb
compatibility
> mode' and try it both ways. Sure others will tell you that they use a
hub,
> usb power, etc.. so these are just some things to try.
>
> Use the control panel/sounds and audio devices in windows to not allow
windows
> itself to use the MIDI device that you want to use in your audio app.
>
> Do the same thing for audio output - don't let Windows output or input
from
> your audio interface.
>
> Then the next thing you have to tackle is output
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61645 is a reply to message #61644] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 04:33 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gt; thing. Then I found the 'MIX' knob on the pre-sonus does very strange
> >things
> >> to the pan positions when used in anything other than the full right
> >position.
> >> The mix knob is supposed to be presonus answer to monitoring live
inputs
> >> with no latency. When all the way left you are monitoring live inputs,
> >when
> >> all the way right you are monitoring the computer mix. It was
> >counter-intuitive
> >> to use this thing all the way right when not even connected to a
> >computer,
> >> but there you go...
> >>
> >> So now I have an incredibly playable, fantastic sounding, great
recording
> >> digital piano and it only took me three years of screwing around with
> >shitty
> >> MIDIMAN and ROLAND USB midi controllers, different versions of GIGA and
> >HALION,
> >> different computers, licensing snafus...
> >>
> >> So I've been playing this rig for about a week and feeling really good
> and
> >> my giga box has started spontaneously rebooting from HEAT ISSUES!!!
> >>
> >> The end
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >
> >
>I've been reading this NG on and off again for a few weeks and am wondering
something. Why do all of you guys use those clunky old Matrox cards? There
must be some reason or another, but one of the first rules of stable computing
is never mix hardware and software from vastly different eras. Don't put
your brand new 8X AGP Super Gamer Qautro nVidia card on a 1999 mobo running
WinME. Don't run Netscape 4.2 on Server 2003 SP2. Yes, it's a PITA to upgrade,
but dual DVI nVidia cards to run on nVidia chipsets are no longer horribly
expensive and it seems people here are giving up a lot of time and effort
to use a (let's admit pretty crappy) old video card.
Obviously, this same argument could be used to suggest dropping PARIS itself,
but at least PARIS adds some distinct value with its sonics. I don't think
Matrox pixels look any better.
Just wondering . . .
TCBYou will be pleasantly surprised with the converters and if appropriate, the
mic pres too (designed by Ted Fletcher). If you have the budget, I'd go with
the 1820M interface for Emulator X. The mic amps in here rival my best pre's.
Also, they use (arguably) a new topolgy called current mode amplification.
http://www.tfpro.com/products/info/26.php
The pre's are wonderfully clean, nuetral, and detailed. They are especially
good for dynamic and ribbon mics. My Shinybox ribbons sound much better
through these pre's than any other I've tried. It would also be pretty easy
to pipe them out to your paris rig, either via analog or digital.
BTW, I just got my matched pair of SE3's. More to follow... :-)
-Chris
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>DUde, the X is super cool.
>Recommended for sure if you have a box to dedicate to it.
>AA
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote in message
>news:43a78c4f@linux...
>> OK.........looks like I'm finally on my way. there appears to be some
>> major
>> quirkiness with the driver set I'm using as relates to the Matrox G450
PCI
>> playing nice with the Houston controller and the Cubase USB dongle whil'st
>> interacting with the VIA KT 800 chipset. Anyway, I've got it happening
>> now.
>> Hell'uva dance to get this all happening. I live the power of this thing.
>> I'm operating Cubase Sx at 1.5ms latency without a hiccup so far.
>> Now.....what to
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61654 is a reply to message #61640] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 09:43 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ing I think of is that I would have to buy 3 new DVI flat panels
>to
>>go with 3 DVI outs... not cheap. PCI-E is going to force this change on
>ppl
>>sooner or later anyway, but - In DJ's case at least - the problem comes
>in
>>the amount of usable PCI slots and video heads. By sticking to the agp/pci
>
>>duo of Matrox 450, he loses no usable PCI slots and gets 4 head outputs
>
>>without taking more than one IRQ.
>>On a single or even dual head video system, I couldn't see keeping those
>old
>>units - especially knowing that with the Matrox drivers they are somewhat
>
>>evil with resource hogging.
>>AA
>>
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:43a81dae$1@linux...
>>>
>>> I've been reading this NG on and off again for a few weeks and am
>>> wondering
>>> something. Why do all of you guys use those clunky old Matrox cards?
There
>>> must be some reason or another, but one of the first rules of stable
>>> computing
>>> is never mix hardware and software from vastly different eras. Don't
put
>>> your brand new 8X AGP Super Gamer Qautro nVidia card on a 1999 mobo
>>> running
>>> WinME. Don't run Netscape 4.2 on Server 2003 SP2. Yes, it's a PITA to
>
>>> upgrade,
>>> but dual DVI nVidia cards to run on nVidia chipsets are no longer horribly
>>> expensive and it seems people here are giving up a lot of time and effort
>>> to use a (let's admit pretty crappy) old video card.
>>>
>>> Obviously, this same argument could be used to suggest dropping PARIS
>
>>> itself,
>>> but at least PARIS adds some distinct value with its sonics. I don't
think
>>> Matrox pixels look any better.
>>>
>>> Just wondering . . .
>>>
>>> TCB
>>
>>
>I usually master with three Brazilian go-go dancers, my collection of Magnum
P.I. action figures, a pair of Rutherford B. Hayes biographies, a bottle
of champagne, two meat and potato pies, chopsticks, a quart of Johnny Red,
six cubits of fiber optic cable (for Jenny), and a jar of organic peanut
butter.
Oh wait. That's actually my book club Monday nights. Wavelab.
TCB
"Pete Ruthenburg" <ruthenburg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> SO I've got a piano jazz trio project I'm going to try and
>master.Just want some advice on what is being used to master.
>
>Are some of you doing it in PARIS or do I need to buy Wavelab?
>
>Thinking of trying some of the UAD precision stuff too.
>Probably a good project for me to get into the mastering thing
>since it shouldn't require alot since its a jaaz thing.
> I also recorded it so I know the material.
>
>Thanks,
>Pete"Pete Ruthenburg" <ruthenburg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> SO I've got a piano jazz trio project I'm going to try and
>master.Just want some advice on what is being used to master.
>
>Are some of you doing it in PARIS or do I need to buy Wavelab?
>
>Thinking of trying some of the UAD precision stuff too.
>Probably a good project for me to get into the mastering thing
>since it shouldn't require alot since its a jaaz thing.
> I also recorded it so I know the material.
>
>Thanks,
>Pete
I've been checking into Sound Forge and Wavelab.I've found Sound
Forge 8 new for $170.00.Wavelab lloks to be $550ish;thats a
pretty big difference.
Is there that much of a difference between the two?
The master cd I do will be sent off of replication and pressing
if that has a bearing on what to use.
TIA,
PeteThad,
At some point, these old Matrox cards are going to just die. They are
*vintage*-purchased back in 1998. I can't believe they are still working,
but then again, I can't beklieve my EDS cards are working either.
In the event I upgrade to something more current, which dual head AGP and
PCI Nvidia cards would you recommend for AGP which are compatible (to the
best of your knowledge) with VIA chipsets? My experience with the VIA
chipset and
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61728 is a reply to message #61640] |
Wed, 21 December 2005 13:17 |
|
|
ystem happy again, then shut down, reinstall the Magma
host
> > > > card (or the PCI cards in the mobo) and reboot. The 4 x UAD cards
are
> > the
> > > > issue in mine. It takes a while to get all of their addresses sorted
out
> > > > it
> > > > seems. Eventually everything stabilized.
> > > >
> > > > Lastly and most annoying for me was getting the Houston controller
to
> > work
> > > > with Cubase SX. I finally figured it out. Cubase SX has to be loaded
> > > > before
> > > > the system ever sees the Houston driver. It won't do to
> > > > uninstall/reinstall
> > > > the driver if the Houston driver is loaded before SX is loaded. My
> > > > experience was that SX will *never* see that driver and the
controller
> > > > will
> > > > not work unless SX is loaded before the controller driver. Took me a
> > whole
> > > > day to figure this one out.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>Have you looked at the Tascam FW1884? I'm using it with SX and love it.
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:43a95e64$1@linux...
>
> Hey all,
>
> I've been looking for a new audio interface, as my Aardvark Q10 has no
> continuing
> driver support. I'm kind of out of the loop these days, but a friend
> suggested
> that since I'm a SX boy and Yamaha is pimping SX as the best software for
> use with mLan products, that the 01X might be a good idea.
>
> http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAM01X
>
> Any experiences, good or bad? I don't think I'd be using the mixer much,
> it would mostly just be an audio interface and a remote control device.
>
> Thanks,
>
> TCBThanks man, I will check this out for sure.
"Cujo" <chris@nospamapplemanstudio.com> wrote in message
news:43a95f45$1@linux...
>
>
>
>
> The nice thing about hammerhead is you can do 505 type simple kick snare
> beats, but it outputs that neatly edited bar already perfect size for
paris
>
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
> >
> >Yep, Rob, you can find a bazillion old Roland drum machines for
> >cheap in lot of places... I think there's still a 505 at a
> >music store around here that i could pick up for you for not
> >much dough if you needed it.
> >
> >Or, If you need a MIDI-generated timing track with kick & snare
> >(for example) on the evens & odds, I can do one of those for
> >you in a heartbeat & just e-mail it to you in whatever tempo &
> >lengths you needed. You could trigger whatever sound module you
> >wanted to off of something like that.
> >
> >Neil
> >
> >"cujo" <chris@nospamapplemanstudio.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I have been using this one for years
> >>It;s a snap..or a snap/clap...or a 909..
> >>
> >>Just select the export all measures..and it gives you a 1 measure block
> >perfect
> >>to past into the grid in paris.
> >>
> >>Takes one second to do..and it sounds pretty decent
> >>
> >>
> >>http://www.threechords.com/hammerhead/
> >>
> >>"Rob Arsenault" <mani2@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
> >>>I was just wondering if any of you use / know of some kind of drum beat
> >>>generator I could use instead of a click. I run Cakewalk Pro 9 on a
second
> >>>PC synced to Paris via SMPTE. I then send a midi note from Cakewalk to
> >a
> >>D4
> >>>drum module and use that as my click sound back into Paris. Is there an
> >>app
> >>>I could use that could sync to time code where I could chose the beat,
>
Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: OK guys......some preliminary findings on my new DAW [message #61729 is a reply to message #61728] |
Wed, 21 December 2005 13:27 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
; >tempo
> >>>and just start trackin, no F__in around...!! Then, with the same
timecode,
> >>I
> >>>could go back to Cakewalk if need be, punch in the same tempo and work
> >on
> >>>midi tracks/sequences, etc.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks much and Happy Holidays from the great white north.
> >>>
> >>>Rob A
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >Since releasing the 1.5 drivers for the 1884 a lot of the issues you wrote
about have been fixed. I would like a scribble strip but I've grown used to
the on screen virtual strip. The big seller for me on the Tascam is the
expansion module up to 24 faders and the nice smooth Tascam faders.
"Chris Wargo" <na@na.na> wrote in message news:43a96e5a$1@linux...
>
> Thad, I shopped for a new audio setup about 1 1/2 yrs ago, and here was
> what
> I went through...
>
> The O1X looked nice, but the small faders were a deal breaker for me.
> Also,
> there was no fader expansion pack at the time (not sure about today). I
> didn't get a chance to hear it or play with it.
>
> I bought the Tascam 1884 and had some major issues with it. The driver
> barely
> worked (which I here is much better now) and the converters weren't
> stellar.
> The implementation as a mackie control in Cubase was also poor. Finally,
> the lack of true scribble strips were a deal breaker. I tried the on
> screen
> "vitual strips" and couldn't get used to them.
>
> I wound up taking it back and getting a Emu 1820M and Mackie control. I
> am starting to sound like a broken record with all my 1820M pimping, but
> it is that good. Stellar converters/clock, and stellar mic pres. If I
> had
> anything bad to say about it, it would be the mixer/router interface takes
> a little getting use to, and the FX are mostly utilitarian (with a few
> nice
> surprises). Also, you can upgrade it to Emulator X soft synth for $100,
> which might be manditory given your background ;-)
>
> -Chris
>
> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hey all,
>>
>>I've been looking for a new audio interface, as my Aardvark Q10 has no
>>continuing
>>driver support. I'm kind of out of the loop these days, but a friend
>>suggested
>>that since I'm a SX boy and Yamaha is pimping SX as the best software for
>>use with mLan products, that the 01X might be a good idea.
>>
>>http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAM01X
>>
>>Any experiences, good or bad? I don't think I'd be using the mixer much,
>>it would mostly just be an audio interface and a remote control device.
>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TCB
>Why on earth anyone would want a proprietary, bloated *nix on X86 processors
is completely and totally beyond me. You want audio? Install XP, it works
great. You want every last drop of *nix scrumptiousness on planet earth with
the same hardware? www.debian.org and you won't owe Cupertino one thin dime.
Come on in! The water's fine! Once you get used to being out of Big Brother's
reach you'll love it!
TCB
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>FYI, some interesting info about Mac OSX running on a PC.
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,68501,00.html?tw=wn_sto ry_related
>
>http://osx86project.org/Hey guys,
Thanks for all of the tips. I didn't know the options were so much more varied.
I think I'll probably go for the M-Audio. Not too expensive, uses the Mackie
protocol (should be more software/hardware agnostic) and very nicely is from
the company that distributes Live so I'd guess support for my new most beloved
app will be good. Tascam is a close second though, but thanks to everyone.
TCB
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Hey all,
>
>I've been looking for a new audio interface, as my Aardvark Q10 has no continuing
>driver support. I'm kind of out of the loop these days, but a friend suggested
>that since I'm a SX boy and Yamaha is pimping SX as the best software for
>use with mLan products, that the 01X might be a good idea.
>
>http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAM01X
>
>Any experiences, good or bad? I don't think I'd be using the mixer much,
>it would mostly just be an audio interface and a remote control device.
>
>Thanks,
>
>TCBSheesh, yeah, you can get used to bad sex and mac n' cheese for
dinner too...
heh
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Why on earth anyone would want a proprietary, bloated *nix on X86 processors
>is completely and totally beyond me. You want audio? Install XP, it works
>great. You want every last drop of *nix scrumptiousness on planet earth
with
>the same hardware? www.debian.org and you won't owe Cupertino one thin dime.
>
>
>Come on in! The water's fine! Once you get used to being out of Big Brother's
>reach you'll love it!
>
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Nov 27 05:19:33 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.05402 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
