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- icon3.gif  Would you do it again? [message #108535] Thu, 05 February 2015 13:47 Go to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   UNITED STATES
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Let's say you were 21, built a i7 PC, already had a decent stereo interface like a RME Babyface. Would you personally go the ITB route or would you get started with Paris?


- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108538 is a reply to message #108535] Thu, 05 February 2015 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will The Weirdo is currently offline  Will The Weirdo   MEXICO
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With the info you provided, today..... ITB with Live 9, Studio One and reaper.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108539 is a reply to message #108535] Thu, 05 February 2015 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   
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I'd run my laptop with all the modern stuff like Ableton and Logic Pro X and use PARIS on a separate computer for those occasions where I'm recording any multitrack audio and/or acoustic sessions. Most of the time PARIS would just be acting as the studio mainframe, a mixer with realtime effects, without using its recording functionality. Best of both worlds. I used to leave PARIS running for months at a time like that.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Thu, 05 February 2015 23:02]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108540 is a reply to message #108538] Thu, 05 February 2015 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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Will The Weirdo wrote on Fri, 06 February 2015 00:20
With the info you provided, today..... ITB with Live 9, Studio One and reaper.



why?
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108541 is a reply to message #108539] Thu, 05 February 2015 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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kerryg wrote on Fri, 06 February 2015 02:02
I'd run my laptop with all the modern stuff like Ableton and Logic Pro X and use PARIS on a separate computer for those occasions where I'm recording any multitrack audio and/or acoustic sessions. Most of the time PARIS would just be acting as the studio mainframe, a mixer with realtime effects, without using its recording functionality. Best of both worlds. I used to leave PARIS running for months at a time like that.



Wouldn't that be the same as keeping Paris open in the background on the same machine? Assuming the pc is powerful enough.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108542 is a reply to message #108541] Fri, 06 February 2015 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   
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My laptop's a MacBook Pro so it's not an option for me but yes, it'd be about the same thing. PARIS is very resource lean too, pretty much all of its DSP is handled by the EDS cards, it was designed to run happily on the resources of 1997 vintage computers.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Fri, 06 February 2015 00:19]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108544 is a reply to message #108542] Fri, 06 February 2015 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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Kerry

You only use Paris for multi tracking, not mixing?

So If you rarely recorded more than two tracks and only anticipated recording solo instruments and synths you wouldn't leave the mac book?

That's what I'm getting from your response.





- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108545 is a reply to message #108544] Fri, 06 February 2015 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   
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I'm not a great example right now because I haven't recorded or produced an album for a couple of years and the next album I do will be of my own work; I'm back getting my degree in composition, and my current work is in electronic music compositions using specialized software (Supercollider, Metasynth, Max4Live, PaulStretch) that's already set up on my laptop for live use.

I can't imagine using PARIS as my sole mixing/editing platform for that - that would rob me of access to the fifteen years of amazing technological advances since its creation, advances which have had a deep impact on our musical language. IMO PARIS is best for what it still does better than any pure software solution - a fat, warm, effectively-zero-latency studio mainframe which offers far more flexibility than a mixer, and importantly can be had for pennies.

But when I last recorded a jazz trio a couple of years back it was absolutely perfect all by itself - far better than it would have been with my Babyface and external converters - and will be next time too.


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Fri, 06 February 2015 12:49]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108546 is a reply to message #108545] Fri, 06 February 2015 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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Nice. I intend on getting kyma, continuun, puredata/max running on my iMac eventually for that type of sound work.

This rig would have to be successfully integrated into the main system where I sequence and track using VSTi's and a few hardware synths on reaper/ableton.
Once the sequence is done, I would render, pre-mix/edit then mix on Paris using only the fx.


My interface is RME Babyface, which I can connect via ADAT to the MEC. The Mec would be used to record the synths.

That's what I'm considering right now.



Either that or getting a RME Fireface UC to track synths and stay in reaper the whole time.
I want to avoid glitches and workarounds so if I do get Paris I want to run it in the most stable way possible.

I see guys getting out of it in old threads and I assume hardware this old is probably not all there.
Paying $5,000 back in 1997 dollars probably has a lot to do with why some still use it.






[Updated on: Fri, 06 February 2015 14:29]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108548 is a reply to message #108546] Fri, 06 February 2015 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   
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The hardware was seriously "over-engineered" - it's built like a tank and rarely fails, and on the rare occasions it does it's usually to die completely, so even at this age dodgy hardware is a rare and minor issue. What PARIS provides is a depth and dimensionality that can be duplicated in other DAWs but is much harder work. What you're talking about is a great and popular compromise, to stream separate ADAT channels into PARIS so it serves as a summing bus, picking up the dimensionality ITB mixes often struggle to achieve.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108549 is a reply to message #108535] Fri, 06 February 2015 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington is currently offline  Doug Wellington   UNITED STATES
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I agree with Kerry about using PARIS as a mainframe.

If I was working with Live, Sonar and some softsynths (which I have been known to do), I would do everything in the box. On the other hand, if I'm tracking vocals and "real" instruments, it's PARIS all the way for me...

If I could reverse engineer the PARIS mix bus and put that into my digital board, I think I would have found the holy grail!

Regards,
Doug


- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108550 is a reply to message #108549] Fri, 06 February 2015 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   
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Mixing in Paris not worth the effort Doug?
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108552 is a reply to message #108535] Sat, 07 February 2015 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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FWIW, with Mike's new drivers, the system is rock solid under WIN7 64 bit. You must edit the config file to disable the (useless) midi implementation, though.
The only instability during mixing comes when using some VST plugins that don't play nice with Paris. (Speakerphone is one of these, but if you use a DX wrapper, it does work.) Still pays to save often.
Absolutely no issues if using only EDS effects.

Cheers,

Kim.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108554 is a reply to message #108550] Sat, 07 February 2015 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington is currently offline  Doug Wellington   UNITED STATES
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n0samples wrote on Fri, 06 February 2015 21:33
Mixing in Paris not worth the effort Doug?

Well, to be honest, when I'm doing the Live/Softsynth thing, it's usually going to end up as an MP3 in those moronic Beats headphones, so no, absolutely not worth the effort. Crank out the tracks without wasting any time on something that nobody will notice...

Now, if I'm working on an orchestral thing or doing some film scoring, or, as I said, vocals or real instruments, or when I need backing tracks for performance, then PARIS is *definitely* my go-to tool.

Regards,
Doug


- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108555 is a reply to message #108552] Sat, 07 February 2015 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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Kim W. wrote on Sat, 07 February 2015 03:10
FWIW, with Mike's new drivers, the system is rock solid under WIN7 64 bit. You must edit the config file to disable the (useless) midi implementation, though.
The only instability during mixing comes when using some VST plugins that don't play nice with Paris. (Speakerphone is one of these, but if you use a DX wrapper, it does work.) Still pays to save often.
Absolutely no issues if using only EDS effects.

Cheers,

Kim.





The only VST I could see myself using is a reverb, maybe nebula (or a convolution vst) and ARC Room correction on the master bus.

What are the odds I could get away with those two?

[Updated on: Sat, 07 February 2015 06:34]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108556 is a reply to message #108555] Sat, 07 February 2015 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will The Weirdo is currently offline  Will The Weirdo   MEXICO
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Nebula and ARC in PARIS, nope.

Think of PARIS as a digital tape machine with efx and eq.

I produce in Live or Studio One, dump to PARIS & record all the vocals and live instruments, dump to Reaper, Nebula in Reaper, dump back to PARIS to mix. The best sound possible in the digital world.

That is my workflow using the best sounding/low latency PARIS with the best sounding VST Nebula. With these two together I do not miss an analogue console.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108557 is a reply to message #108555] Sat, 07 February 2015 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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Ah. You've hit upon one of the biggest limitations of the whole Paris architecture right there.
Paris started life as a discrete 16 track system, with its own DSP based effects. It was expandable to 32, 48, 64 etc by adding additional EDS cards. (Thereby adding "submixes"). VST/DX support came along later, but only on the channel inserts. (Stereo instances could be strapped across two adjacent tracks within each 16 track "submix"). Unfortunately, it is not possible to have a native reverb as a send effect on each submix, let alone across the master bus. Only the EDS DSP reverbs are possible within each 16 track submix, but not across submixes.
A hardware reverb could be used, as the send busses could be routed to an external device, and back in, provided you have additional outputs in your MEC(S).
In practice I have found the available EDS effects to be more than adequate for my purposes. (In particular Mike's Hall and Plate reverbs... they sound gorgeous..)
I have produced some great sounding albums using PARIS alone, but these have consisted of real bands, with real instruments.
I'm not sure that PARIS is for you, however. By the sound of it, you may become frustrated by the workarounds necessary.
I'm sure there will be others that chime in about their experiences, good and bad.
Cheers,
Kim.


- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108558 is a reply to message #108557] Sat, 07 February 2015 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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Oh yeah. As Will said, as a near zero latency recorder, with its own live effects, Paris is hard to beat.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108559 is a reply to message #108557] Sat, 07 February 2015 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   UNITED STATES
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Kim,

Thank you for your response. Can you elaborate on some of these workarounds and why they wouldn't work for my situation?
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108560 is a reply to message #108556] Sat, 07 February 2015 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   UNITED STATES
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Will The Weirdo wrote on Sat, 07 February 2015 11:14
Nebula and ARC in PARIS, nope.

Think of PARIS as a digital tape machine with efx and eq.

I produce in Live or Studio One, dump to PARIS & record all the vocals and live instruments, dump to Reaper, Nebula in Reaper, dump back to PARIS to mix. The best sound possible in the digital world.

That is my workflow using the best sounding/low latency PARIS with the best sounding VST Nebula. With these two together I do not miss an analogue console.



I see myself with a similar workflow. Treating each stage separately. Does it take you longer to use Nebula than algo VSTs?
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108564 is a reply to message #108560] Sat, 07 February 2015 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will The Weirdo is currently offline  Will The Weirdo   
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Yes and no, lol.

Yes in the time I spend per track. Let me explain... I take each track and chain together many Nebula instances in Reaper to achieve the sound I'm looking for for each stereo track. I will then print the Nebula chain. This takes more time but the results are fantastic, and no algo plugs made today come close IMHO. I love the "make a decision" workflow as this forces me to use my ears, trust my decision and move on.

No in the time it takes to get algo plugs to sound good. I also do not go back and forth in attempting to change the what I already did, as I did not commit to what I did, or questioning what decision I made.

- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108567 is a reply to message #108535] Mon, 09 February 2015 06:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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Sorry, just asked what "ITB" was, googled it and found the answer. Tried to delete comment, but i see no way of doing that.

[Updated on: Mon, 09 February 2015 07:04]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108570 is a reply to message #108567] Thu, 12 February 2015 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
excelav is currently offline  excelav   UNITED STATES
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If I could I would use both. I would Compose, track, edit and use plugins with a modern DAW and then mix down in Paris. Why not use the best of both worlds? If my budget was limited I would go Paris for what I do.

The term ITB is somewhat ambiguous and confusing. I under stand the way n0sample was using the term ITB to differentiate between Paris and other DAWs. I'll just say in general terms my understanding of ITB would be the final summing and mixing in a computer as opposed to summing and mixing down with a mixer which would be OTB, Outside The Box.

James

[Updated on: Tue, 17 February 2015 07:14]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108613 is a reply to message #108556] Sat, 07 March 2015 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ted Gerber is currently offline  Ted Gerber   CANADA
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Will The Weirdo wrote on Sat, 07 February 2015 11:14
Nebula and ARC in PARIS, nope.



I had Nebula running in Paris in XP with no problem. Pretty sure I had in Win7 64 too.

I was hoping I could get Slate Virtual Mix Rack running in Paris too, but I couldn't. Seemed odd, since both Virtual Console Collection and Virtual Tape work.

VMR would say it was loading when Paris boots, but the plug was never visible - either wrapped in FFX-4 or "straight".

Ted
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108614 is a reply to message #108613] Sat, 07 March 2015 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
n0samples is currently offline  n0samples   CANADA
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How stable was nebula inside Paris? Any crashes freezes? I assume plenty from what I'm seeing in this thread.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108615 is a reply to message #108613] Sat, 07 March 2015 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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Hi All.

Nebula is a VST plugin.

FFX-4 is a Direct-x "rack".

First, wrap the Nebula plugin with VST Config:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/tw5ug39m2pncym5/vdx33b2.zi p

It is a VST to DX wrapper.

Once wrapped it should show up in Paris.

Sometimes even wrapped VST plugs don't play nice with Paris, so I use the FFX-4 with the wrapped plugin. Using it this way can improve stability.

Hope this helps.

Kim
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108885 is a reply to message #108615] Thu, 20 August 2015 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amuse is currently offline  Amuse   AUSTRALIA
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Hi Kim

I've just got Nebula.

Installed the wrapper. Loads ok etc.

Shows up in Paris, can use on native insert, all good.

But, how do you handle the Nebula Latency?

Thanks,
Pete
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108886 is a reply to message #108885] Fri, 21 August 2015 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim W. is currently offline  Kim W.   AUSTRALIA
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Hi Pete.
I don't actually have Nebula.
I was just suggesting a way of using problematic plugins in Paris.
What is the latency of nebula?
Kim
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108887 is a reply to message #108886] Sat, 22 August 2015 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   
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This page might have useful info about now -

http://www.kerrygalloway.com/WikiPARIS/wikka.php?wakka=Nativ eLatencyDatabase


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108888 is a reply to message #108887] Sun, 23 August 2015 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amuse is currently offline  Amuse   AUSTRALIA
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Thanks guys.

I think I'll stick with 100% EDS for mixdown/trqcking, the zero latency workflow is just so good with Paris in the type of environment I'm working (real instruments, real musicians live in a room).

Will put Nebula to the test for mastering in Reaper.

Cheers
Pete
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108889 is a reply to message #108888] Sun, 23 August 2015 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will The Weirdo is currently offline  Will The Weirdo   MEXICO
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Happy days are ahead for you with that approach. Razz
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108957 is a reply to message #108535] Mon, 12 October 2015 07:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I've been thinking a lot about this thread.

If I were staring out again, I would still want near zero latency. That leaves Apollo, Pro Tools HD, or PARIS.

A new Pro Tools system or Apollo are extremely expensive. I'd much rather buy a used PARIS system and spend the savings on Neve style mic pres, a u87 or TLM 67, and/or a warm audio 1176 clone.

I know may people are raving about the new UAD2 effects in Apollo, but I'm not really ready to trust them. I spent $300 on the UAD1 1073 EQ thinking it would sound like a 1073. Finding out later that they didn't emulate any of the transformers or tubes in the hardware they were modelling was an incredible let down.

Maybe they have nailed it now, but they said they had nailed it then. I can't help wonder what they'll say they didn't emulate this time when they release the UAD 3 with all new plugins.

I'd much rather use real hardware. It's guaranteed to sound like real hardware, and it holds its value. What's my UAD 1 1073 plugin worth now? Nothing.

You can get a Roland SRV 2000 for $200. A PCM 91 for $500. We live in fantastic times. If you decide you don't like one of them, you can sell it for what you paid for it.

Something people don't talk a lot about with PARIS is the converters. They sound beautiful. I hear the space that everything was recorded in when I listen to tracks in PARIS. On the other converters I've tried, which doesn't include an RME babyface, that sense of space isn't there.

Plus, PARIS allows lots of I/O (with almost no latency), so patching in external hardware is a breeze.

The only thing any other system has over PARIS is portability. But, there are lots of cheap USB interfaces that one can use to compliment PARIS if carting around an expansion chassis and an MEC is an issue.

If I were starting out, I would buy a used PARIS system and spend the left over cash on real hardware, mics, room treatment, etc.

All the best,

Mike

[Updated on: Mon, 12 October 2015 07:03]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108958 is a reply to message #108957] Mon, 12 October 2015 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JeffH is currently offline  JeffH   
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I'm in agreement on your approach Mike. As we have talked, I am bringing back up the Paris system and looking forward to getting back into it workflow wise. I am running an Apollo in Pro tools and I can get good sound out of it, but I just like the Paris process better, even after being only pro tools 5 years. The flex tracks, never thinking about buffers, being able to "spank it like a rented donkey" and not having to fuss about gain staging and levels. It felt more like sitting down at a console, punch record on the tape deck, and letting the creativity fly.

Some of the material I am recording now requires midi/sample/loop stuff (don't even get me started about loops and pro tools) as well as melodyne correction, and latency compensation. If I didn't need that, all of my recording would likely be in Paris.

Have an upcoming project of an extended "quasi live" improv duet of violinists. The project is begging for, and will be recorded with, the Paris "analog" sound.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108959 is a reply to message #108958] Mon, 12 October 2015 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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If you've got the luxury of working in a venue where live recordings are occasionally made - a 16 or 32 i/o PARIS setup permanently installed in the club might make a *killer* FOH system. Compressors, FX, EQ, routing out the wazoo - plus the ability to just hit "record" whenever you want... Haven't gone this route yet; I did recommend it for a local jazz club (Cory Weeds' Jazz Cellar) but they went with the Mackie 1608. But it's still in the back of my mind as something I'd love to plan out and execute.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108960 is a reply to message #108959] Mon, 12 October 2015 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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I've often mused that the majority of what has been shovelled into DAWs since 2001 - the majority of additions that PARIS doesn't have - are really turd-polishing tools. I don't want to be dismissive of some of the cool features but many are ways of tuning vocalists that can't sing in tune, quantizing drummers that can't play in time, adding loops or canned parts because the band can't afford real percussion or strings.

PARIS is a killer DAW for musicians that have invested a lot of time and money in getting good sounds and can actually play their instruments.

(Does that statement make me an elitist or a musical snob? I don't want to be that, but it's hard to escape that conclusion)


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Mon, 12 October 2015 12:10]

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- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108962 is a reply to message #108960] Mon, 12 October 2015 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JeffH is currently offline  JeffH   
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Your right Kerry. Unfortunately some of us still have to be sanitation workers Smile
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108963 is a reply to message #108962] Mon, 12 October 2015 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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Yep - and I'm a teacher in the daytime Very Happy - but it's not about doing it full time (so few folks do nowadays) as much as it is about loving the music and taking it seriously. I'm going to guess that as a discerning PARIS user you're that too Very Happy

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108964 is a reply to message #108963] Mon, 12 October 2015 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JeffH is currently offline  JeffH   
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You are correct. I think one of the issues we deal with in this digital age is because the tools exist to "polish turds", people come into the studio totally unprepared. Had a couple I was working with that assured the music was ready and they wanted to record all parts at once. I don't have iso booths, but we got a really good sound. Still, Seven hours later they had plenty to go home and practice...on one song.
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108966 is a reply to message #108964] Mon, 12 October 2015 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Kelley is currently offline  Richard Kelley   UNITED STATES
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Oh Boy did you hit on the word !!! Cool PRACTICE !! Most people want to be instant on musicians. Flip a switch, call up a preset and everyone thinks they are a guitar player. PRACTICE before you record. I don't care how many toys you have or how good of an editor you are, A solo never sounds as good as when it is laid down correctly all the way through. This though takes PRACTICE ! I am a classical guitar major in college, I have now been playing for almost 52 years, and I still practice 5 times a week if I am not playing out much that week ! All that protools quantatizing and autotune, Listen and learn how to sing in tune. How ? Tape and PRACTUCE ! OK wow that was a lot of steam, but I really feel this way. This is why I don't teach. See you guys, PARIS ROCKS ! Now go home and................ PRACTICE !! Cool
- Re: Would you do it again? [message #108967 is a reply to message #108966] Tue, 13 October 2015 01:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
dnafe is currently offline  dnafe   CANADA
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Me - I'd get a used RADAR V with a RME 9652 card for computer interface and Reaper

Second choice would be a Paris rig in lieu of RADAR and with Mike's ASIO drivers (which I have yet to try) this could easily become my first choice

The Reaper environment is just so much more...ah...fluid. Work flow, track creation and layout, Aux and Send assignment and routing and even editing are vastly superior to PARIS. No going back for me

That said now the Mike's ASIO drivers appear ready for prime time I'll be grabbing them and seeing how Reaper interfaces with PARIS

Might be a win win


[Updated on: Tue, 13 October 2015 01:57]

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