Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58062 is a reply to message #58061] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 11:12   |
gene lennon
Messages: 565
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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ave time to do a lot of
> critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
> wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative quantization noise that would
> result from the truncation of, say 20 + tracks, be offset by one final
> dither of the bounced mix?
>
> I'm leaving town tomorrow, but willbe glad to be tyhe guinea pig on this
> when I return next week sometime. I'm just wondering if anyone has already
> tried this or wants to hazard a guess based on the science behind it?
>
> Deej
>
>
>I don't know why you're dithering more than one time, on the
very last step before mastering, in the first place.
Are you gaining anything by this - save for more noise? I mean,
in terms of some kind of sonic quality?
Neil
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Due to cumulative dither noise which I am hearing in the tails of my bounced
>tracks before I fade them, I have been considering removing the dither
>plugins from my Cubase channels that are handling the quantization noise
>from Cubase SX as the channels are individually truncated from 32bit to
20
>bit when they leave the SX environment and travel throught the Paris 20bit
>ADAT channels for summing in Paris.
>
>My ears will be the final judge of this and I don't have time to do a lot
of
>critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
>wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative quantization noise that would
>result from the truncation of, say 20 + tracks,
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58063 is a reply to message #58062] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 11:29 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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be offset by one final
>dither of the bounced mix?
>
>I'm leaving town tomorrow, but willbe glad to be tyhe guinea pig on this
>when I return next week sometime. I'm just wondering if anyone has already
>tried this or wants to hazard a guess based on the science behind it?
>
>Deej
>
>
>This was the reason for my question. Either way I do, I'm going to have
either cumulative quantization noise or cumulate dither noise because I'm
truncating multiple tracks. If one dithering pass can cure the cumulative
quantization noise, then, if the cumulative quantization isn't so bad that I
feel like I have to start using subtractive EQ in the frequencies where it
is creating harshness, then a single dither would be the ticket if it will
address the *cumulative* quantization noise.
When I get back, I'm going to *undither* the mix template and see what kind
of results I get.
I have found that the Waves IDR seems to yield a nicer result with my
bounces that have cumulative dither noise than the Apogee UV22 that I would
normally use.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback.
"Neil" <OIUIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:432333fb$1@linux...
>
> I don't know why you're dithering more than one time, on the
> very last step before mastering, in the first place.
>
> Are you gaining anything by this - save for more noise? I mean,
> in terms of some kind of sonic quality?
>
> Neil
>
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >Due to cumulative dither noise which I am hearing in the tails of my
bounced
> >tracks before I fade them, I have been considering removing the dither
> >plugins from my Cubase channels that are handling the quantization noise
> >from Cubase SX as the channels are individually truncated from 32bit to
> 20
> >bit when they leave the SX environment and travel throught the Paris
20bit
> >ADAT channels for summing in Paris.
> >
> >My ears will be the final judge of this and I don't have time to do a lot
> of
> >critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
> >wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative quantization noise that
would
> >result from the truncation of, say 20 + tracks, be offset by one final
> >dither of the bounced mix?
> >
> >I'm leaving town tomorrow, but willbe glad to be tyhe guinea pig on this
> >when I return next week sometime. I'm just wondering if anyone has
already
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58064 is a reply to message #58063] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 11:36 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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> >tried this or wants to hazard a guess based on the science behind it?
> >
> >Deej
> >
> >
> >
>If there is one thing I hate, it's > noisy tail!!! ;-)
Well.........at least you can't smell dither.
;oP
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_nospam_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:43232cba@linux...
> If the tracks in SX are fairly hot, I would let the transfer
> process truncate them rather than dither. Really, dither
> should be the *last* step in a final master. the full 32
> bit range is only useful if you have passages that almost
> disappear (read classical music). With busier styles of
> music, or higher track counts, the least significant bits
> are buried anyway, so I wouldn't sweat it. I would
> definitely opt for the solution that does not add audible
> noise to the final mix. If there is one thing I hate, it's
> noisy tail!!! ;-)
>
> David.
>
> DJ wrote:
>
> > Due to cumulative dither noise which I am hearing in the tails of my
bounced
> > tracks before I fade them, I have been considering removing the dither
> > plugins from my Cubase channels that are handling the quantization noise
> > from Cubase SX as the channels are individually truncated from 32bit to
20
> > bit when they leave the SX environment and travel throught the Paris
20bit
> > ADAT channels for summing in Paris.
> >
> > My ears will be the final judge of this and I don't have time to do a
lot of
> > critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
> > wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative quantization noise that
would
> > result from the truncation of, say 20 + tracks, be offset by one final
> > dither of the bounced mix?
> >
> > I'm leaving town tomorrow, but willbe glad to be tyhe guinea pig on this
> > when I return next week sometime. I'm just wondering if anyone has
already
> > tried this or wants to hazard a guess based on the science behind it?
> >
> > Deej
> >
> >
> >http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050909/D8CGNUIO0.html
Wow...
This looks like somebody trying to hammer this poor guy Terry by
using the cops and the courts. Welcome to Hollywood mo-fo...
I'm glad the charges were dropped.
DC
And look at that defense attorney? Maybe someone 'round here
is moonlighting eh?[ ] DC... (nutball)
[ ] Dumbya (speaks for itself, smart yet retarded)
[ ] Tyrone (dude is like a tree stump)
[ ] Michael Bliss (dude is just straight delusional)
[ ] rick (dude is actually funny tho)
put an X next to your choice by September 30th
yo moderator... delete this threadYou shouldn't say the "B" word around here, some folks get all ruffled
feathers and stuff but hey, cool idea and very cool price...!!
Rob_A
"Dimitrios" <musurgio@otenet.gr> wrote in message news:4322f9f4@linux...
> There will be out from day to day a new device from Behringer called
> micromixer.
> It will mix 4 mono inputs into one for 24.99 $ each !
> So if you need to to pass 4 auxes from two (up to 4) mecs into 4 headphone
> sends then 4 little devices for 100 $.
> I will definetely go that way.
> Regards,
> Dimitrios
>
>just kidding by the way... you dont have to answer...
PS I meant to include Brandon on that list.... what is that dude like 12?
"cron" <Report message to a moderator
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58065 is a reply to message #58061] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 11:58 |
audioguy_nospam_
Messages: 60
Registered: June 2005
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Member |
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cron@hydrorecords.compound" target="_blank">cron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
news:43236564$1@linux...
>[ ] DC... (nutball)
> [ ] Dumbya (speaks for itself, smart yet retarded)
> [ ] Tyrone (dude is like a tree stump)
> [ ] Michael Bliss (dude is just straight delusional)
> [ ] rick (dude is actually funny tho)
>
> put an X next to your choice by September 30th
>
>
>
> yo moderator... delete this thread
>
>
>Why are you getting truncation? is it becasue you're going from
SX into Paris digitally? I've read a few of your posts about
how you have your system set-up, but honestly, without doing
the same thing myself, it's hard for me personally to visualize
what's going going where. If you're getting truncation because
you're going digitally into Paris, have you considered coming
out of SX with a 4-buss analog submix (through your Multiface)
and into the Paris analog 8-in's?
Neil
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>This was the reason for my question. Either way I do, I'm going to have
>either cumulative quantization noise or cumulate dither noise because I'm
>truncating multiple tracks. If one dithering pass can cure the cumulative
>quantization noise, then, if the cumulative quantization isn't so bad that
I
>feel like I have to start using subtractive EQ in the frequencies where
it
>is creating harshness, then a single dither w
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58067 is a reply to message #58066] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 14:23 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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br />
to
>> 20
>> >bit when they leave the SX environment and travel throught the Paris
>20bit
>> >ADAT channels for summing in Paris.
>> >
>> >My ears will be the final judge of this and I don't have time to do a
lot
>> of
>> >critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
>> >wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative quantization noise that
>would
>> >result from the truncation of, say 20 + tracks, be offset by one final
>> >dither of the bounced mix?
>> >
>> >I'm leaving town tomorrow, but willbe glad to be tyhe guinea pig on this
>> >when I return next week sometime. I'm just wondering if anyone has
>already
>> >tried this or wants to hazard a guess based on the science behind it?
>> >
>> >Deej
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:43236aec$1@linux...
>
> Why are you getting truncation? is it becasue you're going from
> SX into Paris digitally?
That's right. I'm tracking in Paris at 24 bit, converting the .paf's to
..wav, then importing them to a Cubase Mix, processing them at 32 bit, the
squeezing them back through a bunch of Paris 20bit lightpipe inputs to be
summed there.
I've read a few of your posts about
> how you have your system set-up, but honestly, without doing
> the same thing myself, it's hard for me personally to visualize
> what's going going where. If you're getting truncation because
> you're going digitally into Paris, have you considered coming
> out of SX with a 4-buss analog submix (through your Multiface)
> and into the Paris analog 8-in's?
that would be too easy Neil......remember.......this is Mr.Simplicity we're
talking about here ;o)
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >This was the reason for my question. Either way I do, I'm going to have
> >either cumulative quantization noise or cumulate dither noise because I'm
> >truncating multiple tracks. If one dithering pass can cure the cumulative
> >quantization noise, then, if the cumulative quantization isn't so bad
that
> I
> >feel like I have
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58068 is a reply to message #58065] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 14:24 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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to start using subtractive EQ in the frequencies where
> it
> >is creating harshness, then a single dither would be the ticket if it
will
> >address the *cumulative* quantization noise.
> >
> >When I get back, I'm going to *undither* the mix template and see what
kind
> >of results I get.
> >
> >I have found that the Waves IDR seems to yield a nicer result with my
> >bounces that have cumulative dither noise than the Apogee UV22 that I
would
> >normally use.
> >
> >Anyway, thanks for your feedback.
> >
> >
> >"Neil" <OIUIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:432333fb$1@linux...
> >>
> >> I don't know why you're dithering more than one time, on the
> >> very last step before mastering, in the first place.
> >>
> >> Are you gaining anything by this - save for more noise? I mean,
> >> in terms of some kind of sonic quality?
> >>
> >> Neil
> >>
> >>
> >> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >Due to cumulative dither noise which I am hearing in the tails of my
> >bounced
> >> >tracks before I fade them, I have been considering removing the
dither
> >> >plugins from my Cubase channels that are handling the quantization
noise
> >> >from Cubase SX as the channels are individually truncated from 32bit
> to
> >> 20
> >> >bit when they leave the SX environment and travel throught the Paris
> >20bit
> >> >ADAT channels for summing in Paris.
> >> >
> >> >My ears will be the final judge of this and I don't have time to do a
> lot
> >> of
> >> >critical listening/experimenting with this right now, but I'm just
> >> >wondering, *in theory*, would the cumulative
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58073 is a reply to message #58067] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 16:23 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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;o)
"cron" <cron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message news:432367dc@linux...
> just kidding by the way... you dont have to answer...
>
> PS I meant to include Brandon on that list.... what is that dude like 12?
>
>
> "cron" <cron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
> news:43236564$1@linux...
> >[ ] DC... (nutball)
> > [ ] Dumbya (speaks for itself, smart yet retarded)
> > [ ] Tyrone (dude is like a tree stump)
> > [ ] Michael Bliss (dude is just straight delusional)
> > [ ] rick (dude is actually funny tho)
> >
> > put an X next to your choice by September 30th
> >
> >
> >
> > yo moderator... delete this thread
> >
> >
> >
>
>Well, I guess this click is to tight to include my lame questions, but
seriously, I started reading some of the threads in this group and now I
realize it's not ME that needs the help.
Can't say I didn't try.
Over and out.Hmmmmm..........well........OK............I saw that you asked a lot of
questions about what you should do. Looks like you haven't made up your mind
about which direction you should go. Looks like you've got a lot of ideas
and options. I posted up what I'm doing in a thread titled *For you guys who
are looking to sync paris.....yadda yadda*.........
The ADC in Cubase is nice. There are latency issues using analog gear with
Paris.......not big insurmountable issues, but little 1.5ms issues. There
are some issues using SX and Paris too and there is some specific hardware
that works for this really well. If you check the attachment to my post, the
gear you see there will work. I know this for a fact. It's easy to dig a
moneypit expsertimeting until you find the right combination of stuff. If
you want to shoot the breeze about this, e-mail me at animix@animas.net.
I'll be back in town toward the end of next week and might be able to help
you point yourself in the right direction. If you want to search my posts,
there is a lot of info there about using Paris in tandem with a native DAW.
Gene Lennon is doing this too.
and............. I'm always in need of help so you pegged it pretty well.
;O)
"Joey B." <joeybeebad@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4323a379@linux...
> Well, I guess this click is to tight to include my lame questions, but
> seriously, I started reading some of the threads in this group and now I
> realize it's not ME that needs the help.
>
> Can't say I didn't try.
>
> Over and out.
>
>OK........here goes........
.. I've included a photo if anyone is interested. I hope it shows up.
>
nice looking setup.
> Right now, I have PARIS set up on it's own, using some outboard gear as
> inserts and aux. FX.
1.5 ms round trip from A/D to D/A. Be sure to compensate.
>I've also found a way to use the Aux sends as busses so
> that I may strap stereo dynamics ac
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58074 is a reply to message #58073] |
Sat, 10 September 2005 17:35 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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ross a multiple track sub.
You're going to get eh same 1.5 ms doing this so you may hear a little
phasing. Dimitrios was taking about tding this in an earlier post. You might
want to search his recent posts.
I do very > little editing, and don't really use any PARIS effects. I
esentially am > using PARIS as you would a tape deck and desk, I do use the
editor for track
> alignment with multi mic sources, and I will on ocasion remove a flub, but
I
> did that with mutes back in the day anyway.
Pretty much the same with me, except that I do find the Paris FX to be handy
for some things.
>
> I have a second computer running SX which has an RME HDSP 96/52 in it. I
> really only use it to transfer SX tracks from another studio into PARIS,
but
> I think I'd eventually like to either begin recording into SX or even
> upgrade to Nuendo, and simply use PARIS as a mixer. THe main reason dor
this
> is to use the SX latenc compensation. I also have a couple UAD-1s and some
> soft synths that I may or may not use (I have 8 analog channels of decent
> compression and EQ, and prefer using these, printing them to disk as I
need
> more channels). My ultimate goal is to eventually replace PARIS with
either
> a mixer (probably a neotek) or a summing box (probably an API). The bigest
> problem is that PARIS is SO easy to use for me compared to SX. I'm from
the
> old school. Learned on a 4 track cassete, moved to a Tascam 38 1/2",
> eventually replaced it with a couple af DA-38s and then PARIS.
>
> My first question is...where would you all go from here?
I will eventually
> need some nice converters. Should I buy a Lynx Aurora or Appogee DA and
> AD-16x now (I have a big ben and it makes a noticable difference with the
> stock PARIS converters). Has anyone compared either to the stock
converters
> at 44.1 with a good clock?
I use the WC from my Mytek converters (10 picoseconds). It makes a very
positive difference to my ears.
How would that integrate with the ADAT module at
> only 20bit? (I noticed one of you all mentioning having to dither every
> track to 20 bit).
Read my recent ( and not so recent posts) posts. Lots of info there.
>
> Maybe I should use what I have now, then when I'm ready, move to something
> like a Nyquist RADAR and a real board? SX or Nuendo just seems more
tempting
> because I'm half way there, and only need the converters, but I sure like
> the idea of a closed system such as RADAR or even the new TASCAM 48 track.
> The problem is I am sometimes frustrated with PARIS as it seems to have
some
> issues with routing sound when I don't tell it to (I was recently doing a
> drum sub using an auxilary mix to two new tracks and I was getting aux
> bleed, even when no auxilary send was active).
Are you using Paris 3.0? I think the aux bleed problem was solved in this
verison.
It's stuff like that that
> just makes me drop what I'm doing and go eat a doughnut or something.
Yep. It's definitely got some frustrating quirks and limitations.
>
> Anyway, sorry if this post is a little confused, but I AM a little
confused
> right now. Maybe I just need to vent a little bit, but hopefully a
> benificial discussion can come of this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joey Bee
>
Give me a call sometime at 970-769-0499 if you want and we can discuss this.
DJ
>
>i guess i'll vote for me. seems that gives me the triple crown in
bipedal dis functionality as i'm
an idiot
a drunk
and now the stupidest redneck in the neighborhood...kewl. and to
think my mom thought i'd never amount to anything.
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:00:01 -0400, "cron"
<cron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>[ ] DC... (nutball)
>[ ] Dumbya (speaks for itself, smart yet retarded)
>[ ] Tyrone (dude is like a tree stump)
>[ ] Michael Bliss (dude is just straight delusional)
>[ ] rick (dude is actually funny tho)
>
>put an X next to your choice by September 30th
>
>
>
>yo moderator... delete this thread
>
>Greetings :)
Anyone needing AES Passes for this - Please l
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58150 is a reply to message #58129] |
Tue, 13 September 2005 08:23 |
Deej
Messages: 130
Registered: September 2006
|
Senior Member |
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seduced by the plug-ins and automation available in Logic.
> And yes, I can hear a difference on the mix buss... It still wrenches
> my gut sometimes, but I can't help myself. ;-)
>
> Last time I was here people were talking about using PARIS as a mix buss
> for Native DAWs. Are there people still doing this? Is it worth it?
>
> Thanks!
> BillYeah API's on the list for next year! I just need one pre right now to augment
the AM-16's. I am looking for something more "forward" with some sheen btu
can also get some funk. Sound like the GR may do that.
"PN" <Report message to a moderator
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| Re: A question about cumulative quantization noise/dither [message #58175 is a reply to message #58151] |
Wed, 14 September 2005 09:53 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
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x..." target="_blank">43285511@linux...
> Try hitting F8 while it's going through it's start up...hopefully a window
> will come up and allow you to start the comp in last working config mode
> or safe mode. If not try an alternate vidoe card after that I'm at a loss
>
> my $0.02
>
> Don
>
>
> "Pete Ruthenburg" <ruthenburg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:432841d6$1@linux...
>>
>> SO I turn on my PC and everything comes on,fans,lights,but
>> nothing comes on the monitor.It doesn't sound like the computer
>> is going through its normal boot sequence either.I tried the
>> reset button,nothing happens.
>>
>> I'm not too PC savvy as this is my first PC.
>>
>> Any help PLEASE?!
>>
>> Pete
>
>on mine it just hangs until i re hit the power switch to turn it off
the hit it again and it boots.
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:37:33 -0600, "DJ"
<animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Normally what happens with mine is that I boot the computer and I don't hear
>a beep. I shut it down, then I reboot and after about 3 seconds I hit the
>reset button, I hear a beep, the video card is recognized and then
>everything is fine.
>
>I don't know if it is the PSU or not, but if you're running 4 x EDS cards
>and a full load of HD's, you're probably skating pretty close to the edge.
>
>Deej
>
>"Pete Ruthenburg" <ruthenburg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:43284d67$1@linux
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