Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Measuring dynamic range in wavelab?
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69898 is a reply to message #69897] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 16:05   |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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Used dynamic range for a selection, or possible dynamic range in general?
Obviously the latter is determined by your bit depth - 96dB for 16 bit,
144dB for 24 bit. You can always select a range in either Wavelab's
analysis or Cool Edit Pro's Statistical Analysis (iirc) - the difference
between the min and max values in dB would be the dynamic range covered for
that selection.
Regards,
Dedric
On 7/2/06 3:55 PM, in article 44a840ce$1@linux, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
> What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>
>
> "gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>
>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there a way to measure the dynamic range of material in wavelab, harbal,
>>> cool edit or something?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> Wavelab includes tools called Global Analysis that report Peaks, RMS Power
>> (including Max, Min and Average), as well as pitch, errors and DC offset.
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69903 is a reply to message #69898] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 17:54 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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I have a song and I want to see how much "range" it covers. Basically, how
compressed or dynamic it is. What do you recommend?
Thanks in advance.
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Used dynamic range for a selection, or possible dynamic range in general?
>
>Obviously the latter is determined by your bit depth - 96dB for 16 bit,
>144dB for 24 bit. You can always select a range in either Wavelab's
>analysis or Cool Edit Pro's Statistical Analysis (iirc) - the difference
>between the min and max values in dB would be the dynamic range covered
for
>that selection.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>On 7/2/06 3:55 PM, in article 44a840ce$1@linux, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>>
>>
>> "gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to measure the dynamic range of material in wavelab,
harbal,
>>>> cool edit or something?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Wavelab includes tools called Global Analysis that report Peaks, RMS
Power
>>> (including Max, Min and Average), as well as pitch, errors and DC offset.
>>
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69905 is a reply to message #69903] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 19:06 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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I would use the statistics tools in either Wavelab or CEP to determine the
lowest level and the highest peak in dB, and subtract to get the difference
(easier than watching peak meters to see how far they drop - you have a peak
hold that will work for the highest peak level). With pop, rock, R&B, etc,
it really might only be 6 or 8dB.
That is what I would consider the dynamic range of a song - just the simple
difference between the highest peak and the lowest (including silent
sections). With a silent break in the song somewhere, the song's dynamic
range could actually be 80 or 90+dB.
Regards,
Dedric
On 7/2/06 6:54 PM, in article 44a86aab$1@linux, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
> I have a song and I want to see how much "range" it covers. Basically, how
> compressed or dynamic it is. What do you recommend?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Used dynamic range for a selection, or possible dynamic range in general?
>>
>> Obviously the latter is determined by your bit depth - 96dB for 16 bit,
>> 144dB for 24 bit. You can always select a range in either Wavelab's
>> analysis or Cool Edit Pro's Statistical Analysis (iirc) - the difference
>> between the min and max values in dB would be the dynamic range covered
> for
>> that selection.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>> On 7/2/06 3:55 PM, in article 44a840ce$1@linux, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>>>
>>>
>>> "gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a way to measure the dynamic range of material in wavelab,
> harbal,
>>>>> cool edit or something?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Wavelab includes tools called Global Analysis that report Peaks, RMS
> Power
>>>> (including Max, Min and Average), as well as pitch, errors and DC offset.
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69910 is a reply to message #69908] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 05:04 |
John
Messages: 39
Registered: May 2006
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Member |
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Interesting. So what tools & functions are the best way to characterize a
songs dynamic range?
Take for example a song that has a very steady rock volume and I'm hearing
an isolated drum part of this driving beat and I'm trying to determine how
dynamic it is. Ideas? Using wavelab, harbal, cooledit, or a plug in?
rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>paris meters are not providing you an analysis of the audio but just
>the peak value at any given moment in the song. they are not fast
>enough to show all aspects of the sound you are monitoring.
>
>On 3 Jul 2006 11:00:42 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>So how do I measure the range that a song has. For example some pop songs
>>I'm watching don't appear to move more tha 8db on the Paris meters. Constant
>>volume with only 6 to 8db changing. How to quantify that?
>>
>>
>>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The problem is that people use the term to mean different things. The
traditional
>>>definition, is the difference between the loudest part of the recording
>>>and the softest part.
>>>It is confusing because some people define it as the loudest part compared
>>>to the point that sound is at equal level to the noise level (noise floor).
>>>Additionally, some people consider the levels to be the literal peeks
and
>>>some insist it is based on a power curve or RMS average.
>>>Dynamic range is normally expressed in decibels (dB).
>>> The typical dynamic range for a cassette recording is around 60dB, analog
>>>mastering tape without noise reduction about 76dB, CDs can reach a dynamic
>>>range of just under 100dB. Compare this to 120dB or more for live orchestral
>>>performances.
>>>Although the term is thrown around loosely, I prefer the literal definition.
>>>The difference between the loudest part of the recording and the softest
>>>part. Expressed in db and representing literal peek levels. This is a
simple
>>>calculation using Wavelab.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69928 is a reply to message #69910] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 12:50 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
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Senior Member |
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john,
as a side note, if it's more of the occasional level variation you are
concerned with...why not just do level adjustments as if you were
flying the faders as opposed to using compression on every track?
myself, am more inclined to do the "gain change" on a passage then to
throw a compressor on to level things out...just a thought.
On 3 Jul 2006 22:04:46 +1000, "John" <no@wtf.com> wrote:
>
>Interesting. So what tools & functions are the best way to characterize a
>songs dynamic range?
>
>Take for example a song that has a very steady rock volume and I'm hearing
>an isolated drum part of this driving beat and I'm trying to determine how
>dynamic it is. Ideas? Using wavelab, harbal, cooledit, or a plug in?
>
>
>rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>paris meters are not providing you an analysis of the audio but just
>>the peak value at any given moment in the song. they are not fast
>>enough to show all aspects of the sound you are monitoring.
>>
>>On 3 Jul 2006 11:00:42 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>So how do I measure the range that a song has. For example some pop songs
>>>I'm watching don't appear to move more tha 8db on the Paris meters. Constant
>>>volume with only 6 to 8db changing. How to quantify that?
>>>
>>>
>>>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The problem is that people use the term to mean different things. The
>traditional
>>>>definition, is the difference between the loudest part of the recording
>>>>and the softest part.
>>>>It is confusing because some people define it as the loudest part compared
>>>>to the point that sound is at equal level to the noise level (noise floor).
>>>>Additionally, some people consider the levels to be the literal peeks
>and
>>>>some insist it is based on a power curve or RMS average.
>>>>Dynamic range is normally expressed in decibels (dB).
>>>> The typical dynamic range for a cassette recording is around 60dB, analog
>>>>mastering tape without noise reduction about 76dB, CDs can reach a dynamic
>>>>range of just under 100dB. Compare this to 120dB or more for live orchestral
>>>>performances.
>>>>Although the term is thrown around loosely, I prefer the literal definition.
>>>>The difference between the loudest part of the recording and the softest
>>>>part. Expressed in db and representing literal peek levels. This is a
>simple
>>>>calculation using Wavelab.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69930 is a reply to message #69928] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 15:05 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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Sooooo.........if we all start acting like a bunch of compressors, isn't
that going to get us in trouble with the compressors union?
"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1tia2l8aglgbcella04ejlr1nhsv2fj71@4ax.com...
> john,
>
> as a side note, if it's more of the occasional level variation you are
> concerned with...why not just do level adjustments as if you were
> flying the faders as opposed to using compression on every track?
> myself, am more inclined to do the "gain change" on a passage then to
> throw a compressor on to level things out...just a thought.
>
> On 3 Jul 2006 22:04:46 +1000, "John" <no@wtf.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Interesting. So what tools & functions are the best way to characterize
a
> >songs dynamic range?
> >
> >Take for example a song that has a very steady rock volume and I'm
hearing
> >an isolated drum part of this driving beat and I'm trying to determine
how
> >dynamic it is. Ideas? Using wavelab, harbal, cooledit, or a plug in?
> >
> >
> >rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>paris meters are not providing you an analysis of the audio but just
> >>the peak value at any given moment in the song. they are not fast
> >>enough to show all aspects of the sound you are monitoring.
> >>
> >>On 3 Jul 2006 11:00:42 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>So how do I measure the range that a song has. For example some pop
songs
> >>>I'm watching don't appear to move more tha 8db on the Paris meters.
Constant
> >>>volume with only 6 to 8db changing. How to quantify that?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>The problem is that people use the term to mean different things. The
> >traditional
> >>>>definition, is the difference between the loudest part of the
recording
> >>>>and the softest part.
> >>>>It is confusing because some people define it as the loudest part
compared
> >>>>to the point that sound is at equal level to the noise level (noise
floor).
> >>>>Additionally, some people consider the levels to be the literal peeks
> >and
> >>>>some insist it is based on a power curve or RMS average.
> >>>>Dynamic range is normally expressed in decibels (dB).
> >>>> The typical dynamic range for a cassette recording is around 60dB,
analog
> >>>>mastering tape without noise reduction about 76dB, CDs can reach a
dynamic
> >>>>range of just under 100dB. Compare this to 120dB or more for live
orchestral
> >>>>performances.
> >>>>Although the term is thrown around loosely, I prefer the literal
definition.
> >>>>The difference between the loudest part of the recording and the
softest
> >>>>part. Expressed in db and representing literal peek levels. This is a
> >simple
> >>>>calculation using Wavelab.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69931 is a reply to message #69928] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 15:35 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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I keep thinking I need hard compression to get the drums in the pocket. They
are so dynamic currently. I'm just trying to tame drum tracks. Ideas?
rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>john,
>
>as a side note, if it's more of the occasional level variation you are
>concerned with...why not just do level adjustments as if you were
>flying the faders as opposed to using compression on every track?
>myself, am more inclined to do the "gain change" on a passage then to
>throw a compressor on to level things out...just a thought.
>
>On 3 Jul 2006 22:04:46 +1000, "John" <no@wtf.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Interesting. So what tools & functions are the best way to characterize
a
>>songs dynamic range?
>>
>>Take for example a song that has a very steady rock volume and I'm hearing
>>an isolated drum part of this driving beat and I'm trying to determine
how
>>dynamic it is. Ideas? Using wavelab, harbal, cooledit, or a plug in?
>>
>>
>>rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>paris meters are not providing you an analysis of the audio but just
>>>the peak value at any given moment in the song. they are not fast
>>>enough to show all aspects of the sound you are monitoring.
>>>
>>>On 3 Jul 2006 11:00:42 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>So how do I measure the range that a song has. For example some pop
songs
>>>>I'm watching don't appear to move more tha 8db on the Paris meters.
Constant
>>>>volume with only 6 to 8db changing. How to quantify that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What would accurately describe dynamic range in those?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The problem is that people use the term to mean different things. The
>>traditional
>>>>>definition, is the difference between the loudest part of the recording
>>>>>and the softest part.
>>>>>It is confusing because some people define it as the loudest part compared
>>>>>to the point that sound is at equal level to the noise level (noise
floor).
>>>>>Additionally, some people consider the levels to be the literal peeks
>>and
>>>>>some insist it is based on a power curve or RMS average.
>>>>>Dynamic range is normally expressed in decibels (dB).
>>>>> The typical dynamic range for a cassette recording is around 60dB,
analog
>>>>>mastering tape without noise reduction about 76dB, CDs can reach a dynamic
>>>>>range of just under 100dB. Compare this to 120dB or more for live orchestral
>>>>>performances.
>>>>>Although the term is thrown around loosely, I prefer the literal definition.
>>>>>The difference between the loudest part of the recording and the softest
>>>>>part. Expressed in db and representing literal peek levels. This is
a
>>simple
>>>>>calculation using Wavelab.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69947 is a reply to message #69936] |
Tue, 04 July 2006 08:31 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>
>>What does RMS tell you about dynamics as opposed to just overall volume?
>
>
>Peek levels have nothing to do with how loud a recording is perceived. A
>record can have a very low overall level and have a few peeks that are never
>even really heard. Technically this recording could have a very high dynamic
>range and yet have all the audio recorded in a very narrow range of levels
>with just a few added peeks. This is why simply looking for a specific dynamic
>range won’t necessarily mean anything.
>
>RMS is the closest measurement we have to perceived level. On radio its
>called power. It’s a weighted average of the recorded level.
But also, if you're using Span, or something else that has
both RMS & PRMS readouts, you can get a gauge of the overall
dynamics by comparing the two readings. If you've got a PRMS
of -7, and an RMS of -20, there are more dynamics than if
you're PRMS is again -7, but your RMS is -12.
Obviously, these readouts are going to vary from one part of a
song to another (unless Vlado Meller mastered it :D ), but if
you're trying to compare your mix to a commercially-released
track & get similar dynamics out of yours, these two readings
can be helpful (as can your ears).
Neil
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| Re: Measuring dynamic range in wavelab? [message #69949 is a reply to message #69939] |
Tue, 04 July 2006 08:47 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
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Yeah I think so. The Waves Paz seems to show me a nice difference in the
dynamics. I think that's what I need. Thanks guys.
rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>so are you talking dynamics relative to specific frequencies of a
>sound? selective equing can certainly alters ones perception of
>"level" without actually making it any louder. this is the art of
>making space for everything in the mix...knowing what to take out to
>let the other in.
>
>On 4 Jul 2006 21:08:24 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>The waves paz looks interesting. I can put an EQ in front of it and isolate
>>frequencies and it appears to show the dynamic range of my kick. Lots
to
>>learn.
>>
>>
>>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>What does RMS tell you about dynamics as opposed to just overall volume?
>>>
>>>
>>>Peek levels have nothing to do with how loud a recording is perceived.
A
>>>record can have a very low overall level and have a few peeks that are
never
>>>even really heard. Technically this recording could have a very high dynamic
>>>range and yet have all the audio recorded in a very narrow range of levels
>>>with just a few added peeks. This is why simply looking for a specific
dynamic
>>>range won’t necessarily mean anything.
>>>
>>>RMS is the closest measurement we have to perceived level. On radio its
>>>called power. It’s a weighted average of the recorded level.
>>>
>
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