Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » OT: The trouble with learning jazz...
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67213 is a reply to message #67192] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 07:32   |
Rich Lamanna
Messages: 316
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John, jazz chicks are generally wierdos! And they smell like Patchouli.
Rich
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:44498482@linux...
Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so much;
once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more than
$50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the usual
loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about all
the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more
traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't forget that
you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of
constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz
musician, you can expect that you won't have one after.
Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. Don't
get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young adulthood
perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to learning how to
improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue my 1st love, jazz,
with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for my musical habit. If
you do it, do it for the love of it and because it really means something to
you. There's really something special about jazz for me. Unfortunately the
listening public has little or no understanding, or appreciation of the
music form.
Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in the
business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read "It
wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm beginning
to sympathize with him."
Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
Start with 2 million.
Rich
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:444901e4@linux...
Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the cats
that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many
arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in every key
of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in triads,
sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're more
complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in
the beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
start to fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still
searching and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the steel
drum which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in
that you comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano,
you're on the right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill
Evans, Oscar Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and
shed like hell.
Cheers and good luck,
Rich
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>
>
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
I'd
> like to. ;o)
>
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
play.
>
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
....would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
jazz.
>
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
|
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67215 is a reply to message #67205] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 07:21 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On the other hand.... :-)
My neighbor is an upright bass player. He gigs the dc cocktail/benefit/art
show/museum circuit. Also gives lessons during the day, his wife gives voice
lessons (amazing voice), and his twin daughters get an almost free ride to
one of the most prestigious private schools in DC because of their prodigious
musical talent.
In other words they have a rich, rewarding musical, family and financial
life based right on jazz and classical.
Anything is possible :)
Chuck
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Thanks for that Rich. I'll check out your link too, when I get through some
>of these others.
>
>At this gig the other night, one of the guys said on mic "Our CD's are available
>at the bar. If some of you guys bought a CD that would really help us hit
>the jazz top ten, which would I think require about 20 sales..." ;o)
>
>I'm aware that jazz isn't going to make me rich and famous. Even in cases
>where people are famous, they're still not rich. The truth is though that
>me and popular music seem to be going our seperate ways. There is little
>in new music that interests me, and little motivation for me to persue it,
>and I really don't feel very driven to play stuff that I think is crud,
just
>because that's what the punters want.
>
>I'd much prefer that I get enjoyment out of it myself, know my craft, and
>have a small but knowledgeable audience that appreciates and understands
>what I'm doing, which is where jazz will likely take me. We do have a few
>jazz clubs around Melbourne, so if I can work towards gigs in such places
>it will hopefully mean that at least most of the audience will be appreciative,
>even if they don't really understand it.
>
>I've got some work to do before I get there though. Although it's probably
>true that my "fudged" jazz I do at the moment is probably fairly adequate
>for the average unknowledgeable audience. There's part of me that can't
stand
>the thought though that there's one guy sitting at a table somewhere in
the
>room thinking "This guy really doesn't know jazz"... ...which is I guess
>what drives the jazz muso. ;o)
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
>
>"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
>=
>>starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so =
>>much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more
>=
>>than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
>>usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap
=
>>about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or
>=
>>play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't
>=
>>forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
>>addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after
>=
>>about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before
>=
>>you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
>>after.
>>
>>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth.
=
>>Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
>>adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to =
>>learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue
=
>>my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for
>=
>>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
>=
>>really means something to you. There's really something special about =
>>jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
>>understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
>>
>>Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in =
>>the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read
>=
>>"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm
=
>>beginning to sympathize with him."
>>
>>Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>>
>>You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
>>Start with 2 million.
>>
>>Rich
>>
>> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
>>news:444901e4@linux...
>> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the
=
>>cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>>many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in
=
>>every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
>>triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>>(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>>Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
>=
>>It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find
=
>>your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>>about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos.
I
>=
>>play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of
>=
>>comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>>footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>>Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>>like hell.
>>
>> Cheers and good luck,
>> Rich
>>
>> =20
>> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>>news:4448377b$1@linux...
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> > Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
>=
>>other
>> > dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
>=
>>as I'd
>> > like to. ;o)
>> >=20
>> > So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
=
>>persuits
>> > to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a
=
>>sudden
>> > whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
>>avoiding
>> > ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>> >=20
>> > Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are
=
>>so good.
>> > ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top =
>>ten tune,
>> > to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. =
>>One is
>> > decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
>=
>>to play.
>> >=20
>> > And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
>>listened
>> > to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
>>parts to
>> > imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
>=
>>starters
>> > most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
>=
>>I copy
>> > what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
>>that particular
>> > recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
=
>>different,
>> > original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
>=
>>to learn
>> > the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm
>=
>>hardly
>> > an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
>>recordings is
>> > generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it
>=
>>seems.
>> >=20
>> > Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>>standards=20
>> > "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
>>melody goes
>> > before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>=
>> ...would
>> > be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>> >=20
>> > And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
>=
>>people
>> > who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is
>=
>>in jazz.
>> >=20
>> > I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
>>serious effort
>> > into improving my chart reading skills...
>> >=20
>> > Cheers,
>> > Kim.
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>><HTML><HEAD>
>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
>><STYLE></STYLE>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
>>practicing,=20
>>perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're
>=
>>
>>practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig
=
>>that pays=20
>>more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the
>=
>>usual=20
>>loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about
=
>>all the=20
>>hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more=20
>>traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
>>forget that=20
>>you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
>=
>>you've=20
>>become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of =
>>constant 6-8=20
>>hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz musician, =
>>you can=20
>>expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too
=
>>far from=20
>>the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my =
>>
>>youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
>>engrossed in and=20
>>devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I =
>>still=20
>>pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can
>=
>>pay for=20
>>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
>=
>>really=20
>>means something to you. There's really something special about jazz for
>=
>>me.=20
>>Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, or=20
>>appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
>>size=3D2>"One of my=20
>>long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on
=
>>his=20
>>tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as
>=
>>I=20
>>naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
>>href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
>>.com/hal_galper.htm</A>
>><SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
>></FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
>>jazz?</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
>><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
>> =
>>href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
>>A>>=20
>> wrote in message <A=20
>>href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
>> <DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to
>=
>>the cats=20
>> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many
=
>>arpeggios=20
>> as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>>every key=20
>> of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in
=
>>triads,=20
>> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're =
>>more=20
>> complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
>=
>>Minor,=20
>> Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in =
>>the=20
>> beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
>=
>>start to=20
>> fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still =
>>searching=20
>> and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the =
>>steel drum=20
>> which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in =
>>that you=20
>> comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're
>=
>>on the=20
>> right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill =
>>Evans, Oscar=20
>> Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed
=
>>like=20
>> hell.</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
>> <DIV>Rich</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
>> href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote =
>>in message=20
>> </FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>>Paul=20
>> Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>>would know=20
>> if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
>><BR>> So=20
>> this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical=20
>> persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
>>Actually, it's=20
>> not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some =
>>time,but=20
>> I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much =
>>hard=20
>> work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good =
>>ones at=20
>> least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard =
>>parts in=20
>> the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz =
>>tune,=20
>> there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more =
>>advanced,=20
>> and more clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last =
>>20=20
>> years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a =
>>recorded=20
>> performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> =
>>imitate=20
>> what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>>starters<BR>>=20
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
I
>=
>>
>> copy<BR>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody =
>>emulating=20
>> that particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I =
>>should be=20
>> doing my own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite =
>>capable of=20
>> doing that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I =
>>have=20
>> some ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as =
>>I've found=20
>> that working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>>effective=20
>> for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody =
>>know of=20
>> somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>>they're=20
>> written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
>>before=20
>> people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such=20
>> thing... ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. =
>>MIDI=20
>> files even might be ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't =
>>actually=20
>> know any real jazz musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of =
>>jazz,=20
>> but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> =
>>I think=20
>> I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
>>effort<BR>>=20
>> into improving my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> =
>>Cheers,<BR>>=20
>> Kim.</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>>
>>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67222 is a reply to message #67201] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 09:18 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Really good point La Mont.
;o)
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:44499df5$1@linux...
>
> You mean you don'nt know al your chord inversions?
> That's standard requirement for R & B. You'd be hard presses to play some
> Earth Wind & Fire not knowing 90 percent of your chordal inversions :)
>
> Now that we're on the subject, to play Jazz, one should have a foundation
> as to where that style is derived from.
> Today, I would say that having a firm understanding of the Blues is
paramount!!
> Simply put, you can play all the notes in the world, but, if it does not
> have meaning orif it does not swing, then it's just al ot of notes..
>
> From the Blues, then Jazz or even Gospel. The Gospel music form is a very
> interesting form. It's comprised of: The Blues, clasical, Jazz, R &B, Rock
> & Roll.. Yep, you get it all in on art for called Gospel music. Being
from
> Detroit, which is Gospel music's mecca, I can tell you that there some
Local
> Jazz great talents (James Carter-Sax) and others. These guys can be-bop
you
> all night long, but all are lost in a Gospel situation..
> expecialy the Jazz keyboard guys. Lost in space when it come to playing
Gospel.:)
>
> But, You take a un-learned,can't read Gospel Kid who plays at a
Store-front
> church, to the local jazz spot, and he or she can flow..
> So,what am I saying.. ??Having a good foundation on the origins of Jazz
and
> it's off-springs can shed a lot of light into the world of Jazz..
>
>
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >I do play guitar, though I'm more comfortable on keys, and would be
approaching
> >jazz from the keyboard end, at least as a first port of call.
> >
> >That said, it's an interesting concept I see at the site. I have a
guitarist
> >mate who's also on a jazz kick so I'll certainly forward this to him.
> >
> >However, one of the issues I have on guitar, being less familiar with
guitar
> >than keyboard, and partly just due to the nature of the format, is not
just
> >that I don't know where the notes are, but that, on keys, I can easily
see
> >the current chord, and how that fits in to the current key, the previous
> >chord, etc. I can see it all because Ab looks the same everywhere. I
know,
> >for example, if the note I'm playing currently in my solo is the 5th of
> the
> >current chord, for example, or whatever. On guitar, knowing the scale is
> >one issue, but to be really good you have to also know how those notes
fit
> >in to the current chord, the last chord, the key the tune is based
around,
> >etc. This is a part where it seems easy to me on keys, but on guitar I
get
> >lost, and while these lights will help with which actual notes are in the
> >scale, I can't see that they will tell me which note fits where in the
present
> >scheme of things, relative to the current chord and key, etc, if that
makes
> >sense. That's still going to require that I know all the inversions of
every
> >chord all up and down the neck. I don't see a way around that.
> >
> >Good idea though. Very good idea, and a lot could be learned from it.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Kim.
> >
> >"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
> >>I know you are a guitarist. If you are interested in pursuing this on
> >>guitar, this is the ticket:
> >>
> >>www.optekmusic.com
> >>
> >>Absolutely unbelievable learning tool.
> >>
> >>Deej
> >>
> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4448377b$1@linux...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
> other
> >>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
> as
> >>I'd
> >>> like to. ;o)
> >>>
> >>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
> >>persuits
> >>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a
sudden
> >>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been
avoiding
> >>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
> >>>
> >>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
> >>good.
> >>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
> >>tune,
> >>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
> >is
> >>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
> to
> >>play.
> >>>
> >>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've
listened
> >>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
> >to
> >>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
> >>starters
> >>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
> I
> >>copy
> >>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
> >>particular
> >>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
> >>different,
> >>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
> to
> >>learn
> >>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm
hardly
> >>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
> >is
> >>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it
seems.
> >>>
> >>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz
standards
> >>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
> >goes
> >>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> >>...would
> >>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
> >>>
> >>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
> >>people
> >>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
> >>jazz.
> >>>
> >>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
> >>effort
> >>> into improving my chart reading skills...
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Kim.
> >>
> >>
> >
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67223 is a reply to message #67209] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 09:35 |
Larry Upton
Messages: 30
Registered: October 2006
|
Member |
|
|
Steely Dan - "Deacon Blues" nuff said....
Kim wrote:
> "Neil" <OIOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>>In any event - I believe you have to do that which you love,
>>regardless...
>
>
> Well with music, if you don't love it, you simply can't be dedicated enough
> to rise above the pack. Being really good comes from sheer hard work, and
> you're only going to do that work for the love of it, because record companies
> don't pay you to spend 5 years in the back room getting your chops up to
> scratch. ;o)
>
>
>>look at me, I do Progressive Rock, for God's
>>Sake! If there's anything more niche & obscure than Jazz at
>>this point in time, it's that! lol
>
>
> Hehe, no it's not in the current "pop rock" scene really is it? Like you
> say, you've gotta do what you love though, or it's pointless. I mean music
> is art, and you can't create art unless you have a passion for it.
>
> I'm just not sure if this jazz phase will last long enough (20 years? ;o)
> for me to become a really good jazz player, but even if I just go through
> a 12 month fad, I'm bound to come out the other side with a far better understanding
> of music, and that's gotta count for something. :o)
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
>
>>Neil
>
>
|
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|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67225 is a reply to message #67192] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 11:21 |
Rich Lamanna
Messages: 316
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C6660F.AAF89C00
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kim, never apologize for your art, period. If you bait your hook with =
your heart, the fish will bite :-)
Rich
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
news:44498482@linux...
Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration =
and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing =
so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays =
more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap =
about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or =
play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after =
about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before =
you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
after.
Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. =
Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to =
learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue =
my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for =
my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it =
really means something to you. There's really something special about =
jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in =
the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read =
"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm =
beginning to sympathize with him."
Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm=20
You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
Start with 2 million.
Rich
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
news:444901e4@linux...
Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. =
It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I =
play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of =
comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
like hell.
Cheers and good luck,
Rich
=20
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:4448377b$1@linux...
>=20
>=20
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch =
of other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about =
jazz as I'd
> like to. ;o)
>=20
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>=20
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are =
so good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top =
ten tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. =
One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And =
harder to play.
>=20
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. =
For starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. =
If I copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
that particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I =
need to learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, =
I'm hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz =
it seems.
>=20
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
standards=20
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such =
thing... ...would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>=20
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know =
some people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise =
is in jazz.
>=20
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
serious effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>=20
> Cheers,
> Kim.
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C6660F.AAF89C00
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>Kim, never apologize for your art, period. If you bait your hook =
with your=20
heart, the fish will bite :-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rich<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
href=3D"news:44498482@linux">news:44498482@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
practicing,=20
perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since =
you're=20
practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig =
that=20
pays more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing =
expect the=20
usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap =
about=20
all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play =
more=20
traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
forget that=20
you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, =
since=20
you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years =
of=20
constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a =
jazz=20
musician, you can expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too =
far from=20
the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of =
my=20
youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
engrossed in=20
and devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. =
I still=20
pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I =
can pay=20
for my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and =
because it=20
really means something to you. There's really something special about =
jazz for=20
me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, =
or=20
appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
size=3D2>"One of my=20
long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on =
his=20
tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy =
as I=20
naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with =
him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
..com/hal_galper.htm</A>
<SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
jazz?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening =
to the=20
cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
many=20
arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical=20
sense, <STRONG>in every key of course, this is a must</STRONG>, =
learned=20
all the chord scales, in triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, =
especially the=20
dominant ones, (they're more complex and were harder to hear for =
me),=20
Altered, Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's =
endless my=20
friend. It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you =
begin to=20
find your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only =
took me=20
about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's =
solos.=20
I play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more =
aware of=20
comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
simultaneously.=20
If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right footing =
already if=20
you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Chick, =
Herbie,=20
George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed like hell.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
<DIV>Rich</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> =
wrote in message=20
</FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last =
night. Paul=20
Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
would=20
know if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. =
;o)<BR>>=20
<BR>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my =
musical=20
persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
Actually,=20
it's not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for =
some=20
time,but I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds =
like too=20
much hard work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz =
musos, or=20
good ones at least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare =
the=20
keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano =
part in an=20
average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly =
more=20
difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to =
play.<BR>>=20
<BR>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a =
tune, I've=20
listened<BR>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then =
worked out=20
some parts to<BR>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the =
expectation is=20
different. For starters<BR>> most recorded versions are =
incredibly=20
personalised to the player. If I copy<BR>> what I hear on a =
record, I'll=20
just sound like somebody emulating that particular<BR>> =
recording, where=20
the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,<BR>> =
original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need =
to=20
learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to =
read=20
charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as I've found that =
working off=20
the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more effective for =
pop/rock=20
music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody know of =
somewhere=20
where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as they're =
written"?=20
A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> before =
people=20
start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such =
thing... =20
...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be =
ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't actually know any real =
jazz=20
musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody =
where=20
I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> I think I just =
need to=20
bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort<BR>> into =
improving=20
my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> =
Kim.</FONT>=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C6660F.AAF89C00--
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67227 is a reply to message #67213] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 11:58 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
you noticed too huh? Where's the hot bimbo jazz chicks like those that
follow Bon Jovi around?
Rich Lamanna wrote:
> John, jazz chicks are generally wierdos! And they smell like Patchouli.
>
> Rich
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:44498482@linux...
> Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
> starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so much;
> once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more than
> $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the usual
> loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about all
> the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more
> traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't forget that
> you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
> you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of
> constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz
> musician, you can expect that you won't have one after.
>
> Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. Don't
> get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young adulthood
> perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to learning how to
> improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue my 1st love, jazz,
> with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for my musical habit. If
> you do it, do it for the love of it and because it really means something to
> you. There's really something special about jazz for me. Unfortunately the
> listening public has little or no understanding, or appreciation of the
> music form.
>
> Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in the
> business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read "It
> wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm beginning
> to sympathize with him."
>
> Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>
> You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
> Start with 2 million.
>
> Rich
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:444901e4@linux...
> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the cats
> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many
> arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in every key
> of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in triads,
> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're more
> complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
> Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in
> the beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
> start to fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still
> searching and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the steel
> drum which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in
> that you comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano,
> you're on the right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill
> Evans, Oscar Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and
> shed like hell.
>
> Cheers and good luck,
> Rich
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
> I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
> persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
> good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
> tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
> play.
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
> starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
> copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
> particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
> different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
> learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> ...would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
> people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
> jazz.
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
> effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67228 is a reply to message #67215] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 15:41 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeh, I've actually been reflecting upon this since the posts about not getting
rich.
When I think about it, I've heard a number of people around Melbourne comment
that you earn much better money doing jazz gigs than pop/rock gigs if you're
an unknown or little known muso. The thing being that jazz has an aura of
sophistication to it. Corporations want it for their presentations. Wineries
want it to sell their wine. The the people with the money to burn want it,
and their aren't that many people who are any good at it.
I've actually heard of some fairly average jazz players getting $200+ a gig,
whereas anyone other than your top cover bands here wouldn't be making that
from pop/rock. Good jazz players can make $500 in a night, or so I've heard.
On the other hand, that's probably as good as it will get. You're not going
to make a million selling records, ever. But I'd be more than happy with
a few hundred a night, a free feed, and free beer, espeically if there's
a piano waiting for me so I don't have to lug. :o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>On the other hand.... :-)
>
>My neighbor is an upright bass player. He gigs the dc cocktail/benefit/art
>show/museum circuit. Also gives lessons during the day, his wife gives
voice
>lessons (amazing voice), and his twin daughters get an almost free ride
to
>one of the most prestigious private schools in DC because of their prodigious
>musical talent.
>
>In other words they have a rich, rewarding musical, family and financial
>life based right on jazz and classical.
>
>Anything is possible :)
>
>Chuck
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Thanks for that Rich. I'll check out your link too, when I get through
some
>>of these others.
>>
>>At this gig the other night, one of the guys said on mic "Our CD's are
available
>>at the bar. If some of you guys bought a CD that would really help us hit
>>the jazz top ten, which would I think require about 20 sales..." ;o)
>>
>>I'm aware that jazz isn't going to make me rich and famous. Even in cases
>>where people are famous, they're still not rich. The truth is though that
>>me and popular music seem to be going our seperate ways. There is little
>>in new music that interests me, and little motivation for me to persue
it,
>>and I really don't feel very driven to play stuff that I think is crud,
>just
>>because that's what the punters want.
>>
>>I'd much prefer that I get enjoyment out of it myself, know my craft, and
>>have a small but knowledgeable audience that appreciates and understands
>>what I'm doing, which is where jazz will likely take me. We do have a few
>>jazz clubs around Melbourne, so if I can work towards gigs in such places
>>it will hopefully mean that at least most of the audience will be appreciative,
>>even if they don't really understand it.
>>
>>I've got some work to do before I get there though. Although it's probably
>>true that my "fudged" jazz I do at the moment is probably fairly adequate
>>for the average unknowledgeable audience. There's part of me that can't
>stand
>>the thought though that there's one guy sitting at a table somewhere in
>the
>>room thinking "This guy really doesn't know jazz"... ...which is I guess
>>what drives the jazz muso. ;o)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Kim.
>>
>>"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
>>=
>>>starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so
=
>>>much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more
>>=
>>>than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
>>>usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap
>=
>>>about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or
>>=
>>>play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't
>>=
>>>forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
>>>addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after
>>=
>>>about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before
>>=
>>>you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
>>>after.
>>>
>>>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth.
>=
>>>Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
>>>adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to
=
>>>learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue
>=
>>>my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for
>>=
>>>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
>>=
>>>really means something to you. There's really something special about
=
>>>jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
>>>understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
>>>
>>>Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in
=
>>>the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read
>>=
>>>"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm
>=
>>>beginning to sympathize with him."
>>>
>>>Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>>>
>>>You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
>>>Start with 2 million.
>>>
>>>Rich
>>>
>>> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
>>>news:444901e4@linux...
>>> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the
>=
>>>cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>>>many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in
>=
>>>every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in
=
>>>triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>>>(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>>>Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
>>=
>>>It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find
>=
>>>your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>>>about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos.
>I
>>=
>>>play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware
of
>>=
>>>comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>>>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>>>footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>>>Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>>>like hell.
>>>
>>> Cheers and good luck,
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> =20
>>> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>>>news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>> >=20
>>> >=20
>>> > Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch
of
>>=
>>>other
>>> > dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
>>=
>>>as I'd
>>> > like to. ;o)
>>> >=20
>>> > So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
>=
>>>persuits
>>> > to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a
>=
>>>sudden
>>> > whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been
=
>>>avoiding
>>> > ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>> >=20
>>> > Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are
>=
>>>so good.
>>> > ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top
=
>>>ten tune,
>>> > to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison.
=
>>>One is
>>> > decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
>>=
>>>to play.
>>> >=20
>>> > And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've
=
>>>listened
>>> > to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
>>>parts to
>>> > imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
>>=
>>>starters
>>> > most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player.
If
>>=
>>>I copy
>>> > what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
>>>that particular
>>> > recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
>=
>>>different,
>>> > original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
>>=
>>>to learn
>>> > the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm
>>=
>>>hardly
>>> > an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
>>>recordings is
>>> > generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it
>>=
>>>seems.
>>> >=20
>>> > Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>>>standards=20
>>> > "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
>>>melody goes
>>> > before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>>=
>>> ...would
>>> > be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>> >=20
>>> > And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
>>=
>>>people
>>> > who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is
>>=
>>>in jazz.
>>> >=20
>>> > I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
>>>serious effort
>>> > into improving my chart reading skills...
>>> >=20
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Kim.
>>>
>>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>>><HTML><HEAD>
>>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
>>><STYLE></STYLE>
>>></HEAD>
>>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
>>>practicing,=20
>>>perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're
>>=
>>>
>>>practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig
>=
>>>that pays=20
>>>more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the
>>=
>>>usual=20
>>>loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about
>=
>>>all the=20
>>>hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more=20
>>>traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
>>>forget that=20
>>>you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
>>=
>>>you've=20
>>>become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of =
>>>constant 6-8=20
>>>hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz musician,
=
>>>you can=20
>>>expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too
>=
>>>far from=20
>>>the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my =
>>>
>>>youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
>>>engrossed in and=20
>>>devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I =
>>>still=20
>>>pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can
>>=
>>>pay for=20
>>>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
>>=
>>>really=20
>>>means something to you. There's really something special about jazz for
>>=
>>>me.=20
>>>Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, or=20
>>>appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
>>>size=3D2>"One of my=20
>>>long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on
>=
>>>his=20
>>>tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as
>>=
>>>I=20
>>>naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
>>>href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
>>>.com/hal_galper.htm</A>
>>><SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
>>></FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
>>>jazz?</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>>><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
>>><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>>>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>>>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>>> <DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
>>> =
>>>href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
>>>A>>=20
>>> wrote in message <A=20
>>>href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
>>> <DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to
>>=
>>>the cats=20
>>> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many
>=
>>>arpeggios=20
>>> as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>>>every key=20
>>> of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in
>=
>>>triads,=20
>>> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're =
>>>more=20
>>> complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
>>=
>>>Minor,=20
>>> Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in
=
>>>the=20
>>> beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
>>=
>>>start to=20
>>> fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still =
>>>searching=20
>>> and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the =
>>>steel drum=20
>>> which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in
=
>>>that you=20
>>> comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're
>>=
>>>on the=20
>>> right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill =
>>>Evans, Oscar=20
>>> Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed
>=
>>>like=20
>>> hell.</DIV>
>>> <DIV> </DIV>
>>> <DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
>>> <DIV>Rich</DIV>
>>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
>>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
>>> href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
>>> size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote =
>>>in message=20
>>> </FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
>>> size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>>>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>>> size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>>>Paul=20
>>> Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>>>would know=20
>>> if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
>>><BR>> So=20
>>> this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical=20
>>> persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
>>>Actually, it's=20
>>> not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some =
>>>time,but=20
>>> I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much =
>>>hard=20
>>> work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good =
>>>ones at=20
>>> least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard =
>>>parts in=20
>>> the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz
=
>>>tune,=20
>>> there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more =
>>>advanced,=20
>>> and more clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last =
>>>20=20
>>> years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a =
>>>recorded=20
>>> performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> =
>>>imitate=20
>>> what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>>>starters<BR>>=20
>>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
>I
>>=
>>>
>>> copy<BR>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody =
>>>emulating=20
>>> that particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I =
>>>should be=20
>>> doing my own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite =
>>>capable of=20
>>> doing that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I =
>>>have=20
>>> some ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as =
>>>I've found=20
>>> that working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>>>effective=20
>>> for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody =
>>>know of=20
>>> somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>>>they're=20
>>> written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>>
=
>>>before=20
>>> people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such=20
>>> thing... ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. =
>>>MIDI=20
>>> files even might be ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't =
>>>actually=20
>>> know any real jazz musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of
=
>>>jazz,=20
>>> but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> =
>>>I think=20
>>> I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
>>>effort<BR>>=20
>>> into improving my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> =
>>>Cheers,<BR>>=20
>>> Kim.</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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