Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86760 is a reply to message #86757] |
Sat, 16 June 2007 14:17   |
steve the art-like pe
Messages: 3
Registered: June 2007
|
Junior Member |
|
|
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>My mom took a bad fall a few days ago. She didn't break any bones but got
>seriously bruised up. She's started feeling really bad today. God knows
>what's going on. This little town doesn't have any doctors right now that
>will accept Medicare because of the expense of hiring people full time to
>deal with the bureaucracy so they can get paid. I called my doctor (the
are
>open on Satrudays) to request an appointment. They say that they can't take
>her because they don't take medicare patients. I told them that I would
pay
>cash. They said that they cannot take cash. They could get their license
>revoked. She has a supplemental medical policy. They can't take that either.
>We're forced to go to the ER to get her any help. Luckily, there's one here
>that is separate from the big hospital complex here so there's less of a
>chance of her contacting a random killer respiratory bug than there would
be
>if we went to the big Medical center here.
>
>Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens who will
>get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around $1000.00.
>
>;o)
>
>
>
>
my girlfriend Bonnie is doing an article about retirees who move abroad,
and she was talking to a guy who's retired to Costa Rica. He says he gets
great healthcare for $37/month, and knows people who travel to Costa Rica
to have their operations.
Kinda makes ya proud. By the way, the US, home of the tallest population
in the world, now rates 20th in the world. Tallest kids are now in Holland,
averaging three inches taller than here.
-steve
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86771 is a reply to message #86760] |
Sat, 16 June 2007 16:09 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
They grow them tall so they can see over the dikes.
steve the art-like personage wrote:
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>> My mom took a bad fall a few days ago. She didn't break any bones but got
>
>> seriously bruised up. She's started feeling really bad today. God knows
>
>> what's going on. This little town doesn't have any doctors right now that
>
>> will accept Medicare because of the expense of hiring people full time to
>
>> deal with the bureaucracy so they can get paid. I called my doctor (the
> are
>> open on Satrudays) to request an appointment. They say that they can't take
>
>> her because they don't take medicare patients. I told them that I would
> pay
>> cash. They said that they cannot take cash. They could get their license
>
>> revoked. She has a supplemental medical policy. They can't take that either.
>
>> We're forced to go to the ER to get her any help. Luckily, there's one here
>
>> that is separate from the big hospital complex here so there's less of a
>
>> chance of her contacting a random killer respiratory bug than there would
> be
>> if we went to the big Medical center here.
>>
>> Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens who will
>
>> get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around $1000.00.
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> my girlfriend Bonnie is doing an article about retirees who move abroad,
> and she was talking to a guy who's retired to Costa Rica. He says he gets
> great healthcare for $37/month, and knows people who travel to Costa Rica
> to have their operations.
>
> Kinda makes ya proud. By the way, the US, home of the tallest population
> in the world, now rates 20th in the world. Tallest kids are now in Holland,
> averaging three inches taller than here.
>
> -steve
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86782 is a reply to message #86757] |
Sat, 16 June 2007 20:44 |
Paul Braun
Messages: 391
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:49:14 -0600, "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>
wrote:
>
>Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens who will
>get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around $1000.00.
>
Yep. A good friend of mine is dying from cancer right now. The
Cyberknife treatments (a series of focused radio beams that intersect
at the tumor) had knocked back the brain tumors and they were going to
start on the lungs...
And then their insurance company told them, "We're done. This is just
stupid, and we're not going to pay any more."
Those treatments run $21k per.
And they can prolong his life so he can see his daughter graduate from
college.
And now, because the insurance company has said, "Yeah, we know you've
been paying in for all these years. Did you REALLY expect us to give
you any of it back????" the treatment center is refusing treatment.
They have the technology to save this man's life, yet they refuse to
use it and will let him die because his insurance company is run by
assholes.
So, the cancer will start growing again, will spread to other parts of
his body, and he'll die. Nice.
Fuckers.
pab
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86783 is a reply to message #86782] |
Sat, 16 June 2007 20:59 |
Paul Braun
Messages: 391
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:44:47 -0500, Paul Braun
<cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>And now, because the insurance company has said, "Yeah, we know you've
>been paying in for all these years. Did you REALLY expect us to give
>you any of it back????" the treatment center is refusing treatment.
>They have the technology to save this man's life, yet they refuse to
>use it and will let him die because his insurance company is run by
>assholes.
>
>So, the cancer will start growing again, will spread to other parts of
>his body, and he'll die. Nice.
>
Oh- and I forgot. He's a veteran. Talked to the VA about getting
some help.
Nope.
They have so many kids coming back from Iraq that are all hacked up
and blown to bits, that they're denying benefits to older vets because
they have to spend all their money on the current crop of casualties.
So much for your country taking care of you after serving your
country....
pab
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86788 is a reply to message #86784] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 03:25 |
John
Messages: 39
Registered: May 2006
|
Member |
|
|
Sorry but as much as I like you, I don't want to pay for your families
needs. If you want to pay for my families needs I can take paypal
immediately. I can think of 50 grand worth of surgeries right off the
bat to get me going. Wrist, shoulder, ankle. Hook me up!
John
LaMont wrote:
> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those who say
> they don;t want a national health care system.
>
> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours then
> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost job.
> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear someone
> saying by who??
>
> By our hard earned tax dollars that are being wasted on stupid programs and
> politicians. Let's take care of our own.!!
>
> Unlike many in this country, I have paid into our tax system for over 30
> years, and I for one would be glad to pay for me and my family, you and your
> families health needs.
>
>
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>> My mom took a bad fall a few days ago. She didn't break any bones but got
>
>> seriously bruised up. She's started feeling really bad today. God knows
>
>> what's going on. This little town doesn't have any doctors right now that
>
>> will accept Medicare because of the expense of hiring people full time to
>
>> deal with the bureaucracy so they can get paid. I called my doctor (the
> are
>> open on Satrudays) to request an appointment. They say that they can't take
>
>> her because they don't take medicare patients. I told them that I would
> pay
>> cash. They said that they cannot take cash. They could get their license
>
>> revoked. She has a supplemental medical policy. They can't take that either.
>
>> We're forced to go to the ER to get her any help. Luckily, there's one here
>
>> that is separate from the big hospital complex here so there's less of a
>
>> chance of her contacting a random killer respiratory bug than there would
> be
>> if we went to the big Medical center here.
>>
>> Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens who will
>
>> get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around $1000.00.
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86792 is a reply to message #86788] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 07:45 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John <aint@itawful.com> wrote:
>Sorry but as much as I like you, I don't want to pay for your families
>needs. If you want to pay for my families needs I can take paypal
>immediately. I can think of 50 grand worth of surgeries right off the
>bat to get me going. Wrist, shoulder, ankle. Hook me up!
I would rather pay for Lamont's family's (or yours) healthcare
needs than pay for someone who HASN'T been paying into the
system, yet we have to do that anyway, don't we?
This is one area where I stray from my mostly-conservative
leanings... I think we should try & find a way to provide
healthcare for everyone - the biggest part of the problem
becomes this: when the govt steps in & determines what's
a "fair" price for something & hence starts regulating prices,
quality falls by the wayside. People going into college are
going to forget about med school because you won't be able to
make $250k as a doctor anymore & decide where you're going to
live & work - the government pays you $75k and assigns you to a
city somewhere. Why amass mountains of debt in student loans to
do that? Nursing is a pretty decent field to be in, in a lot
of cities RN's & LVN's can get a signing bonus, just like in
the NFL (ok, not that big lol), and can often choose their own
hours/shifts within reason because there's such a demand for
their skills. Under a government healthcare system, their pay &
assignments would be determined by the govt, as well. Probably
this would go all the way down to positions like x-ray & lab
technicians, orderlies, janitors... candy-stripers
would become part of Americorps, I'm sure. :)
To summarize it, the entire healthcare system experience would
be like walking into one big, giant Department of Motor
Vehicles office... except it's not your car registration you're
needing, it's a triple-bypass.
How does THAT idea sit with you?
So, the question really becomes: Do you REALLY want people like
doctors & nurses as civil servants?
Neil
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86800 is a reply to message #86796] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:02 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You are right. But, there's a reason that he Gov regulates like it does. Working
for Blue Cross for some years and my mom workignthere for 35 years as an
auditor, i can tell you of the fraud and abuse that Docors for years played
on the insurance industry.. We are talking in the billions of dollars..They
the Doctors and hospitals were a cash cow!! Then, the inrance industry started
to fight back and the medical community cried foul..Those esravagant salaries
and wages were coming to an end.and people (doctors) were going to jail ..
See, we all in a three way fight, much like the figh in Iraq. In one corner
we have the Medical community who was use to having a blank check on what
they charged for their services good, mediocore or bad. he other corner
we have the Insurance industry, who was getting reamed by the fraudulant
claims from the hospitals and clinics.. And , lastly, you have we the people
caught in the middle of this blood bath.
If I had to choose a side now, I'd have to side with the insurance industry
as bad as that sounds. You guys/gals gotta know that when a hospial chharges
100 for a pill (for example) and other outrageous charges , the insurance
industry has to react.
here was atime when the medical insurance industry was admired and beloved..
That's before the the massive abuse and fraud comiited by the medical community
hit full tilt. Now, we despise the insurance industry and pity the pooor
doctors who can't give the $$$$$$ quality service because of the big bad
insurance industry..booo hoo.... all is all, it's all F'd up. where both
sides are in a stale mate. Meanwhile, the US health-care is in utter despair..Pittiful!!
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>
>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those who
>> say
>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>
>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>> then
>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>> job.
>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear someone
>> saying by who??
>
>The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is because
>the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86801 is a reply to message #86799] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:17 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like you is:
"Then, what is the cure"??
If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for employer
pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end. Even
with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their employee
top notch medical care.
This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who belive that
great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford it..
Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay for
a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many families
can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising fuel
cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these days..
And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one catstrophic
illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's horrible!!
to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked from you
because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some debilitating
disorder ????
The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 percent "supplement"
to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have dignified health
coverage.
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the 'govt'
>way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold the
>payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker because
>of govt mandates.
>Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>gov't doing it? NO.
>
>AA
>
>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>
>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>
>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
who
>>> say
>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>
>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>>> then
>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>>> job.
>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>> someone
>>> saying by who??
>
>
>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is because
>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86803 is a reply to message #86788] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:28 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If you have health insurance, you are already paying for
John wrote:
> Sorry but as much as I like you, I don't want to pay for your families
> needs. If you want to pay for my families needs I can take paypal
> immediately. I can think of 50 grand worth of surgeries right off the
> bat to get me going. Wrist, shoulder, ankle. Hook me up!
>
> John
>
> LaMont wrote:
>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
>> who say
>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>> yours then
>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even
>> wost job.
>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>> someone
>> saying by who??
>> By our hard earned tax dollars that are being wasted on stupid
>> programs and
>> politicians. Let's take care of our own.!!
>>
>> Unlike many in this country, I have paid into our tax system for over 30
>> years, and I for one would be glad to pay for me and my family, you
>> and your
>> families health needs.
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>> My mom took a bad fall a few days ago. She didn't break any bones but
>>> got
>>
>>> seriously bruised up. She's started feeling really bad today. God knows
>>
>>> what's going on. This little town doesn't have any doctors right now
>>> that
>>
>>> will accept Medicare because of the expense of hiring people full
>>> time to
>>
>>> deal with the bureaucracy so they can get paid. I called my doctor (the
>> are
>>> open on Satrudays) to request an appointment. They say that they
>>> can't take
>>
>>> her because they don't take medicare patients. I told them that I would
>> pay
>>> cash. They said that they cannot take cash. They could get their license
>>
>>> revoked. She has a supplemental medical policy. They can't take that
>>> either.
>>
>>> We're forced to go to the ER to get her any help. Luckily, there's
>>> one here
>>
>>> that is separate from the big hospital complex here so there's less of a
>>
>>> chance of her contacting a random killer respiratory bug than there
>>> would
>> be
>>> if we went to the big Medical center here.
>>>
>>> Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens who
>>> will
>>
>>> get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around $1000.00.
>>>
>>> ;o)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86804 is a reply to message #86800] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:29 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
One reason my mom was feeling so bad was discovered last night. she has a
condition called Temporal Arteritis. She has had it for a while and it can
affect her vision (as in caude blindness) or cause stroke if her medication
is not properly adjusted. She had a test last March which included a biopsy.
the doctor billed Medicare over $3000.00 and the lab results reported that
the condition had pretty much gone away, requiringa very small maintenance
dose of her mids. Well, she's been having all of these problems and while we
were at the ER yesterday, they ran a blood test and the indicators of this
condition were "60 times" what was reported by the lab in March. Fortunately
we have one of the best neurologists in the whole country here who does take
Medicare and is a friend of a friend. Mom has an appointment to see her next
week. Looks like some of the doctors in this town are a joke.
Deej
"LaMont " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:46755aff$1@linux...
>
> You are right. But, there's a reason that he Gov regulates like it does.
> Working
> for Blue Cross for some years and my mom workignthere for 35 years as an
> auditor, i can tell you of the fraud and abuse that Docors for years
> played
> on the insurance industry.. We are talking in the billions of
> dollars..They
> the Doctors and hospitals were a cash cow!! Then, the inrance industry
> started
> to fight back and the medical community cried foul..Those esravagant
> salaries
> and wages were coming to an end.and people (doctors) were going to jail ..
>
> See, we all in a three way fight, much like the figh in Iraq. In one
> corner
> we have the Medical community who was use to having a blank check on what
> they charged for their services good, mediocore or bad. he other corner
> we have the Insurance industry, who was getting reamed by the fraudulant
> claims from the hospitals and clinics.. And , lastly, you have we the
> people
> caught in the middle of this blood bath.
>
> If I had to choose a side now, I'd have to side with the insurance
> industry
> as bad as that sounds. You guys/gals gotta know that when a hospial
> chharges
> 100 for a pill (for example) and other outrageous charges , the insurance
> industry has to react.
> here was atime when the medical insurance industry was admired and
> beloved..
> That's before the the massive abuse and fraud comiited by the medical
> community
> hit full tilt. Now, we despise the insurance industry and pity the pooor
> doctors who can't give the $$$$$$ quality service because of the big bad
> insurance industry..booo hoo.... all is all, it's all F'd up. where both
> sides are in a stale mate. Meanwhile, the US health-care is in utter
> despair..Pittiful!!
>
>
>
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>
>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those who
>
>>> say
>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>
>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>
>>> then
>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>
>>> job.
>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>> someone
>>> saying by who??
>>
>>The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is because
>
>>the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86805 is a reply to message #86803] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:38 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jamie K wrote:
>
> If you have health insurance, you are already paying for
....other people. You're paying for people who use the same health
insurance you do. AND you're paying for people who have no health
insurance and wait until they have emergencies to get expensive
treatment as indigents. You pay for the latter through taxes and
thorough higher costs charged to you for your health care.
So you already have what you don't want. Already. The system isn't working.
The question is how to change it into something that is more efficient
at delivering health care when needed, and more effective at
preventative care to lower the cost of emergency care.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
> John wrote:
>> Sorry but as much as I like you, I don't want to pay for your families
>> needs. If you want to pay for my families needs I can take paypal
>> immediately. I can think of 50 grand worth of surgeries right off the
>> bat to get me going. Wrist, shoulder, ankle. Hook me up!
>>
>> John
>>
>> LaMont wrote:
>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
>>> who say
>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>>> yours then
>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even
>>> wost job.
>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>> someone
>>> saying by who??
>>> By our hard earned tax dollars that are being wasted on stupid
>>> programs and
>>> politicians. Let's take care of our own.!!
>>>
>>> Unlike many in this country, I have paid into our tax system for over 30
>>> years, and I for one would be glad to pay for me and my family, you
>>> and your
>>> families health needs.
>>>
>>>
>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>> My mom took a bad fall a few days ago. She didn't break any bones
>>>> but got
>>>
>>>> seriously bruised up. She's started feeling really bad today. God knows
>>>
>>>> what's going on. This little town doesn't have any doctors right now
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> will accept Medicare because of the expense of hiring people full
>>>> time to
>>>
>>>> deal with the bureaucracy so they can get paid. I called my doctor (the
>>> are
>>>> open on Satrudays) to request an appointment. They say that they
>>>> can't take
>>>
>>>> her because they don't take medicare patients. I told them that I would
>>> pay
>>>> cash. They said that they cannot take cash. They could get their
>>>> license
>>>
>>>> revoked. She has a supplemental medical policy. They can't take that
>>>> either.
>>>
>>>> We're forced to go to the ER to get her any help. Luckily, there's
>>>> one here
>>>
>>>> that is separate from the big hospital complex here so there's less
>>>> of a
>>>
>>>> chance of her contacting a random killer respiratory bug than there
>>>> would
>>> be
>>>> if we went to the big Medical center here.
>>>>
>>>> Amazing..........I'm off to the ER to sit with the illegal aliens
>>>> who will
>>>
>>>> get their healthcare free. I, OTOH, will get a bill for around
>>>> $1000.00.
>>>>
>>>> ;o)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86806 is a reply to message #86792] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 09:55 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
There's more than one way to create a health system. I agree we should
try to find a way to offer health care to everyone. We ought to be able
to do this while taking current inefficiencies and outright corruption
out of the equation.
I also agree that we don't want to create a monster in the process.
Would a public system automatically be a monster? It depends on how it's
structured.
We already have a monster. We know that the current non-public system
does not measure up. Again, due to how it's structured.
Moore uses the examples of fire departments and police departments as
public entities that work. It's a fair point, government operated
services can work reasonably well, so I wouldn't rule that out entirely.
OTOH, there are other approaches that could also work, involving
creating a framework within which a mix of public and private enterprise
could operate.
Any change should be set up to take advantage of scale to keep costs down.
Competition within a system can also keep costs down so if there are
opportunities to create competitive incentives in the system that would
be well worth considering.
At the same time, we shouldn't lose focus on the bottom line, which in
this case is not just cost, but health and life. Balanced, somehow, with
cost.
We can't pretend this is an easy problem. We can't pretend any solution
will be immediately perfect. But it's worth trying to envision something
better than the current mess.
On the bright side almost all parties in the current system have
incentive to work toward something better, because it's not working all
that well for most parties involved: employers, employees, doctors,
hostpitals, government.
On a related tangent, I don't think health plans should be provided by
and tied to businesses/employers. They should be completely portable and
unrelated to where you work IMO.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Neil wrote:
> John <aint@itawful.com> wrote:
>> Sorry but as much as I like you, I don't want to pay for your families
>> needs. If you want to pay for my families needs I can take paypal
>> immediately. I can think of 50 grand worth of surgeries right off the
>> bat to get me going. Wrist, shoulder, ankle. Hook me up!
> I would rather pay for Lamont's family's (or yours) healthcare
> needs than pay for someone who HASN'T been paying into the
> system, yet we have to do that anyway, don't we?
>
>
> This is one area where I stray from my mostly-conservative
> leanings... I think we should try & find a way to provide
> healthcare for everyone - the biggest part of the problem
> becomes this: when the govt steps in & determines what's
> a "fair" price for something & hence starts regulating prices,
> quality falls by the wayside. People going into college are
> going to forget about med school because you won't be able to
> make $250k as a doctor anymore & decide where you're going to
> live & work - the government pays you $75k and assigns you to a
> city somewhere. Why amass mountains of debt in student loans to
> do that? Nursing is a pretty decent field to be in, in a lot
> of cities RN's & LVN's can get a signing bonus, just like in
> the NFL (ok, not that big lol), and can often choose their own
> hours/shifts within reason because there's such a demand for
> their skills. Under a government healthcare system, their pay &
> assignments would be determined by the govt, as well. Probably
> this would go all the way down to positions like x-ray & lab
> technicians, orderlies, janitors... candy-stripers
> would become part of Americorps, I'm sure. :)
>
> To summarize it, the entire healthcare system experience would
> be like walking into one big, giant Department of Motor
> Vehicles office... except it's not your car registration you're
> needing, it's a triple-bypass.
>
> How does THAT idea sit with you?
>
> So, the question really becomes: Do you REALLY want people like
> doctors & nurses as civil servants?
>
> Neil
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86810 is a reply to message #86804] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 10:35 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Deej, I hope your mom gets the care she needs and it all works out
for the best!
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> One reason my mom was feeling so bad was discovered last night. she has a
> condition called Temporal Arteritis. She has had it for a while and it can
> affect her vision (as in caude blindness) or cause stroke if her medication
> is not properly adjusted. She had a test last March which included a biopsy.
> the doctor billed Medicare over $3000.00 and the lab results reported that
> the condition had pretty much gone away, requiringa very small maintenance
> dose of her mids. Well, she's been having all of these problems and while we
> were at the ER yesterday, they ran a blood test and the indicators of this
> condition were "60 times" what was reported by the lab in March. Fortunately
> we have one of the best neurologists in the whole country here who does take
> Medicare and is a friend of a friend. Mom has an appointment to see her next
> week. Looks like some of the doctors in this town are a joke.
>
> Deej
>
> "LaMont " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:46755aff$1@linux...
>> You are right. But, there's a reason that he Gov regulates like it does.
>> Working
>> for Blue Cross for some years and my mom workignthere for 35 years as an
>> auditor, i can tell you of the fraud and abuse that Docors for years
>> played
>> on the insurance industry.. We are talking in the billions of
>> dollars..They
>> the Doctors and hospitals were a cash cow!! Then, the inrance industry
>> started
>> to fight back and the medical community cried foul..Those esravagant
>> salaries
>> and wages were coming to an end.and people (doctors) were going to jail ..
>>
>> See, we all in a three way fight, much like the figh in Iraq. In one
>> corner
>> we have the Medical community who was use to having a blank check on what
>> they charged for their services good, mediocore or bad. he other corner
>> we have the Insurance industry, who was getting reamed by the fraudulant
>> claims from the hospitals and clinics.. And , lastly, you have we the
>> people
>> caught in the middle of this blood bath.
>>
>> If I had to choose a side now, I'd have to side with the insurance
>> industry
>> as bad as that sounds. You guys/gals gotta know that when a hospial
>> chharges
>> 100 for a pill (for example) and other outrageous charges , the insurance
>> industry has to react.
>> here was atime when the medical insurance industry was admired and
>> beloved..
>> That's before the the massive abuse and fraud comiited by the medical
>> community
>> hit full tilt. Now, we despise the insurance industry and pity the pooor
>> doctors who can't give the $$$$$$ quality service because of the big bad
>> insurance industry..booo hoo.... all is all, it's all F'd up. where both
>> sides are in a stale mate. Meanwhile, the US health-care is in utter
>> despair..Pittiful!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those who
>>>> say
>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>
>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>>>> then
>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>>>> job.
>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>>> someone
>>>> saying by who??
>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is because
>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86814 is a reply to message #86810] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 11:14 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks Jaimie,
She's having some big problems this morning. Amy is over there right now.
I'm getting ready to head that way as well. She was prescribed 1 MG of
Prednisone 3 times a day back in March. She should have been taking a much
larger dose (as much as I hate to think of her taking large doses of
Prednisone.......bad stuff, that, but in her situation, necessary) Anyway,
we're trying to get the dosage adjusted right now.
Gotta' fly,
I'll check in with you guys later on.
Deej
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4675726e@linux...
>
> Hey Deej, I hope your mom gets the care she needs and it all works out for
> the best!
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DJ wrote:
>> One reason my mom was feeling so bad was discovered last night. she has a
>> condition called Temporal Arteritis. She has had it for a while and it
>> can affect her vision (as in caude blindness) or cause stroke if her
>> medication is not properly adjusted. She had a test last March which
>> included a biopsy. the doctor billed Medicare over $3000.00 and the lab
>> results reported that the condition had pretty much gone away, requiringa
>> very small maintenance dose of her mids. Well, she's been having all of
>> these problems and while we were at the ER yesterday, they ran a blood
>> test and the indicators of this condition were "60 times" what was
>> reported by the lab in March. Fortunately we have one of the best
>> neurologists in the whole country here who does take Medicare and is a
>> friend of a friend. Mom has an appointment to see her next week. Looks
>> like some of the doctors in this town are a joke.
>>
>> Deej
>>
>> "LaMont " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>> news:46755aff$1@linux...
>>> You are right. But, there's a reason that he Gov regulates like it does.
>>> Working
>>> for Blue Cross for some years and my mom workignthere for 35 years as an
>>> auditor, i can tell you of the fraud and abuse that Docors for years
>>> played
>>> on the insurance industry.. We are talking in the billions of
>>> dollars..They
>>> the Doctors and hospitals were a cash cow!! Then, the inrance industry
>>> started
>>> to fight back and the medical community cried foul..Those esravagant
>>> salaries
>>> and wages were coming to an end.and people (doctors) were going to jail
>>> ..
>>>
>>> See, we all in a three way fight, much like the figh in Iraq. In one
>>> corner
>>> we have the Medical community who was use to having a blank check on
>>> what
>>> they charged for their services good, mediocore or bad. he other corner
>>> we have the Insurance industry, who was getting reamed by the fraudulant
>>> claims from the hospitals and clinics.. And , lastly, you have we the
>>> people
>>> caught in the middle of this blood bath.
>>>
>>> If I had to choose a side now, I'd have to side with the insurance
>>> industry
>>> as bad as that sounds. You guys/gals gotta know that when a hospial
>>> chharges
>>> 100 for a pill (for example) and other outrageous charges , the
>>> insurance
>>> industry has to react.
>>> here was atime when the medical insurance industry was admired and
>>> beloved..
>>> That's before the the massive abuse and fraud comiited by the medical
>>> community
>>> hit full tilt. Now, we despise the insurance industry and pity the pooor
>>> doctors who can't give the $$$$$$ quality service because of the big bad
>>> insurance industry..booo hoo.... all is all, it's all F'd up. where both
>>> sides are in a stale mate. Meanwhile, the US health-care is in utter
>>> despair..Pittiful!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
>>>>> who
>>>>> say
>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>>>>> yours
>>>>> then
>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even
>>>>> wost
>>>>> job.
>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>>>> someone
>>>>> saying by who??
>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>>>> because
>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86817 is a reply to message #86801] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 11:21 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>
> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like you
> is:
> "Then, what is the cure"??
I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since you
don't see what I meant.
the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
hold the
>payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>because
>of govt mandates.
>Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>gov't doing it? NO.
The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life, and see
what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing of
symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think the very
first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. Illegals?
Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired of you
sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in line
behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other programs. Don't
like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? At this
point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck for
everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going too
many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take the best
care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I have to
buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people feel
entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free health care
as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got a real
historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement becomes
dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not necessarily
always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery like
that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't and I'm
sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to survive so
you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously not see
that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>
> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
> employer
> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
> Even
> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
> employee
> top notch medical care.
Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being bilked
for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is very
very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and free
loaders.
>
> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who belive that
> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford it..
There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them from my
hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal entry
into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately we
don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>
> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay for
> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
> families
> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
> fuel
> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these days..
Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
numbers as an average.
>
> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
> catstrophic
> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
> horrible!!
> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked from you
> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
> debilitating
> disorder ????
Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or super broke
makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your money
for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is considered a
long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but it's a
reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into retirement or
beyond.
>
> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 percent
> "supplement"
> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have dignified
> health
> coverage.
And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal (how
would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on welfare or
don't have insurance/money?
Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what they can
pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are now. Those
that have will not have for long because those that don't will take it away
through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets screwed
again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the health
care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool can look
at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. I've
been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon. I'm not
willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it doesn't work
for any length of time before becoming corruption.
Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've got to
start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so many
things are a result of this root issue.
AA
>
>
> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
>>'govt'
>
>>way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold the
>
>>payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>because
>
>>of govt mandates.
>>Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>
>>gov't doing it? NO.
>>
>>AA
>>
>>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>
>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
> who
>>>> say
>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>
>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>
>>>> then
>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>
>>>> job.
>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>>> someone
>>>> saying by who??
>>
>>
>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>>> because
>
>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86829 is a reply to message #86817] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 12:50 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
hey Aaron, you said.."So, explain to me why should I have to
buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?"
I'll gladly pay for someone elses healthcare. I've been in corp american
since 1982, so I've paid some taxes. But, that's cool.
One day your turn will come. No matter how well you take care of yourself,
you're gonna die. And die of something probably not nice..
let me ask you why do think yur President and other like him want such an
influx of mexicans to the us?? To them, it must be some need.
You sound like a lot of southern whites back in the 1700 & early 1800's when
african slaves were being brought in the US. They screamed of over population
things.
Is the US over populated? Do we have enough land for more people?
There are those who think that spending over a trillion dollars for a sensless
war in the ultimate abuse of mis-apropiations of our tax dollars. What could
we do with a trillion dollars back home??
So what you work, I work 2 and I am pro union (never been part of one) and
pro SS#. I'm also Pro Gun ..
Aaron , today many of hard hard working so-called legal americans don;t
have health coverage and Can't afdord it. Business are not offering them
any longer..What other choice do we have??
Why are he only Super power without a national healthc care system. When
did we become so cynical and not care about our brothers and sisters?
God, put us on the earth to be a blessing to others By wyes teahing them
to fish, but Jesus stated that it is better to give then to revieve. To become
stingy, and self-centered is not he way.
Aren't we all in some kinda way illegal aliens except for the Native Americans
and their cousins to the North the(Eskimos) and to the south (Mexicans)..??
The real crooks are those in DC. They have been piliging our money since
they found out that we were broke after our independence. heen , they start
a suedo monarchy system called democracy and started taxing us like the British
did. You get elected to congress or the senate..server one term, salry
for life and free health care for life. Vote for your raises, amke deals
(pork) big business .on and on..
The point is..At a point since they are hell bent on never giving us back
our money and making any good on it..Why not get something for it(tax money)
that we can actually see.. Corruption (national health care) yes..But, so
is this war..Haliburton??? People will profit big tiem form a national health
care system, But, many people will get the help they need in the process..
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>"LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>
>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like you
>> is:
>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>
>I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since you
>don't see what I meant.
>
>the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
>hold the
>>payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>because
>>of govt mandates.
>>Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>>gov't doing it? NO.
>
>
>The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
>approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life, and see
>what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing of
>symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think the
very
>first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. Illegals?
>Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired of you
>sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in line
>behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other programs. Don't
>like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
>insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? At
this
>point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck for
>everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
>there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going too
>many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take the
best
>care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I have to
>buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>
>And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people feel
>entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free health
care
>as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got a real
>historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement becomes
>dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not necessarily
>always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery like
>that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't and I'm
>sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to survive
so
>you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously not see
>that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>
>>
>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>> employer
>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
>> Even
>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>> employee
>> top notch medical care.
>
>Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being bilked
>for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is very
>very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and free
>loaders.
>
>>
>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who belive
that
>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford it..
>
>There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them from my
>hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal entry
>into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
>though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately we
>don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
>trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>
>>
>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay
for
>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>> families
>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
>> fuel
>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these days..
>
>Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
>numbers as an average.
>
>>
>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
>> catstrophic
>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>> horrible!!
>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked from
you
>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
>> debilitating
>> disorder ????
>
>Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or super broke
>makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your money
>for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is considered
a
>long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but it's
a
>reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into retirement or
>beyond.
>
>>
>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 percent
>> "supplement"
>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have dignified
>> health
>> coverage.
>
>And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal (how
>would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on welfare
or
>don't have insurance/money?
>
>Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what they can
>pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are now. Those
>that have will not have for long because those that don't will take it away
>through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets screwed
>again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the health
>care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool can
look
>at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. I've
>been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon. I'm
not
>willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it doesn't
work
>for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>
>Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've got
to
>start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so many
>things are a result of this root issue.
>
>AA
>
>>
>>
>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
>>>'govt'
>>
>>>way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold the
>>
>>>payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>>because
>>
>>>of govt mandates.
>>>Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>>
>>>gov't doing it? NO.
>>>
>>>AA
>>>
>>>"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
>> who
>>>>> say
>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>>
>>>>> then
>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even
wost
>>
>>>>> job.
>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>>>> someone
>>>>> saying by who??
>>>
>>>
>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>>>> because
>>
>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86831 is a reply to message #86817] |
Sun, 17 June 2007 12:50 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of providing
health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
low wages they are paid?
I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are using.
Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
can and should address the immigration issue separately.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Aaron Allen wrote:
> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like you
>> is:
>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>
> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since you
> don't see what I meant.
>
> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
> hold the
>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>> because
>> of govt mandates.
>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>> gov't doing it? NO.
>
>
> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life, and see
> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing of
> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think the very
> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. Illegals?
> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired of you
> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in line
> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other programs. Don't
> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? At this
> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck for
> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going too
> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take the best
> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I have to
> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>
> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people feel
> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free health care
> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got a real
> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement becomes
> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not necessarily
> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery like
> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't and I'm
> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to survive so
> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously not see
> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>
>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>> employer
>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
>> Even
>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>> employee
>> top notch medical care.
>
> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being bilked
> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is very
> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and free
> loaders.
>
>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who belive that
>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford it..
>
> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them from my
> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal entry
> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately we
> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>
>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay for
>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>> families
>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
>> fuel
>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these days..
>
> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
> numbers as an average.
>
>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
>> catstrophic
>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>> horrible!!
>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked from you
>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
>> debilitating
>> disorder ????
>
> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or super broke
> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your money
> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is considered a
> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but it's a
> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into retirement or
> beyond.
>
>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 percent
>> "supplement"
>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have dignified
>> health
>> coverage.
>
> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal (how
> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on welfare or
> don't have insurance/money?
>
> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what they can
> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are now. Those
> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take it away
> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets screwed
> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the health
> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool can look
> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. I've
> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon. I'm not
> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it doesn't work
> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>
> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've got to
> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so many
> things are a result of this root issue.
>
> AA
>
>>
>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
>>> 'govt'
>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold the
>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>> because
>>> of govt mandates.
>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed
>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
>> who
>>>>> say
>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and yours
>>>>> then
>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even wost
>>>>> job.
>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
>>>>> someone
>>>>> saying by who??
>>>
>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>>>> because
>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86884 is a reply to message #86831] |
Mon, 18 June 2007 21:27 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7B200.30434E90
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:467591fd@linux...
>=20
> Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of =
providing=20
> health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>=20
> Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>=20
> Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the=20
> low wages they are paid?
>=20
> I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are =
using.
This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part, =
could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've =
seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region =
of states all the way to Cali.
This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal =
immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on =
the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, =
but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when =
all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, =
illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of =
more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an =
amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly =
$29 billion.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
Washington Post found about the same thing
"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in =
costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in =
taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per =
illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
Here's a 2004 finding
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_=
04.txt
SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.=20
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
27 July 2005
New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year.Do They =
Take American Express??
[Bryanna Bevens] @ 11:24 am [Email author] [Email This Article] [Print =
This Article]=20
Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we =
round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside =
in the U.S.=20
Silly mortal.what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to =
complicated problems just confuse the powers that be-he should have used =
graphs and flow charts.you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity =
for interpretation.=20
To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress (CAP-whatever =
that's supposed to be) prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit =
analysis for deporting millions of illegal aliens.=20
Hmm.I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise.the =
cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost =
prohibitive.
[extracted from the report linked below]
"Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass =
deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2 =
billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. =
Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the =
Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more =
than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 =
billion)."
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-ali=
ens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-american-expres s/
I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in =
google warring?
Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals, =
they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without =
blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to =
trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how =
many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it =
blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in =
goods/services but the big question lies in will the spending in the =
medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how =
does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our legal =
jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves =
and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, =
Mexicans or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house =
and ourselves and those around us. Perhaps others just see =
responsibility in a different way than I do.=20
Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all =
pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers =
playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate =
more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay =
for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit =
volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for it =
too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am not =
a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes. =
I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about =
that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't =
mind giving. But I want to give smart.=20
What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my =
friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay =
enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves =
if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently =
per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's =
food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my =
house bank account?
>=20
> Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We =
> can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>=20
My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just =
have to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the =
last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain =
tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, =
first hand. I could relate some horror stories.
Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
Cheers back atcha'
AA
>=20
>=20
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message =
news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like =
you=20
>>> is:
>>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>=20
>> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since =
you=20
>> don't see what I meant.
>>=20
>> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, =
then=20
>> hold the
>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker =
>>> because
>>> of govt mandates.
>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the =
fed
>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd=20
>> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life, =
and see=20
>> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region, =
>> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing =
of=20
>> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....=20
>> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think =
the very=20
>> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. =
Illegals?=20
>> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired =
of you=20
>> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in =
line=20
>> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other =
programs. Don't=20
>> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and =
>> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? =
At this=20
>> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck =
for=20
>> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this =
point=20
>> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going =
too=20
>> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take =
the best=20
>> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I =
have to=20
>> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>=20
>> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people =
feel=20
>> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free =
health care=20
>> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got =
a real=20
>> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement =
becomes=20
>> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not =
necessarily=20
>> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery =
like=20
>> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't =
and I'm=20
>> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to =
survive so=20
>> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously =
not see=20
>> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>=20
>>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for=20
>>> employer
>>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic =
end.=20
>>> Even
>>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their=20
>>> employee
>>> top notch medical care.
>>=20
>> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being =
bilked=20
>> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is =
very=20
>> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and =
free=20
>> loaders.
>>=20
>>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who =
belive that
>>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford =
it..
>>=20
>> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them =
from my=20
>> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal =
entry=20
>> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to =
that,=20
>> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately =
we=20
>> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the =
>> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>=20
>>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can =
pay for
>>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many=20
>>> families
>>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With =
rising=20
>>> fuel
>>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these =
days..
>>=20
>> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'=20
>> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to =
those=20
>> numbers as an average.
>>=20
>>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one =
>>> catstrophic
>>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's=20
>>> horrible!!
>>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked =
from you
>>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has =
some=20
>>> debilitating
>>> disorder ????
>>=20
>> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or =
super broke=20
>> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your =
money=20
>> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is =
considered a=20
>> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but =
it's a=20
>> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into =
retirement or=20
>> beyond.
>>=20
>>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 =
percent=20
>>> "supplement"
>>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have =
dignified=20
>>> health
>>> coverage.
>>=20
>> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal =
(how=20
>> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on =
welfare or=20
>> don't have insurance/money?
>>=20
>> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what =
they can=20
>> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are =
now. Those=20
>> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take =
it away=20
>> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets =
screwed=20
>> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the =
health=20
>> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool =
can look=20
>> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. =
I've=20
>> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon. =
I'm not=20
>> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it =
doesn't work=20
>> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>=20
>> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've =
got to=20
>> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so =
many=20
>> things are a result of this root issue.
>>=20
>> AA
>>=20
>>>
>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that =
the=20
>>>> 'govt'
>>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold =
the
>>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care =
worker=20
>>>> because
>>>> of govt mandates.
>>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need =
the fed
>>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>>
>>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message =
news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message=20
>>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand =
those
>>> who
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and =
yours
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a =
even wost
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can =
hear
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> saying by who??
>>>>
>>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is=20
>>>>> because
>>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>>
>>=20
>>
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7B200.30434E90
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16481" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Jamie K" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Meta@Dimensional.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:467591fd@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:467591fd@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Aaron, do you have any =
sources of=20
data for the actual cost of providing <BR>> health care to illegal =
aliens?=20
What numbers are you using?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Do you know the amount of =
taxes paid=20
by illegal aliens?<BR>> <BR>> Do you know the amount of money =
saved in the=20
economy, overall, by the <BR>> low wages they are paid?<BR>> =
<BR>> I'm=20
just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are=20
using.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This'll get you started. And they're =
old numbers=20
for the most part, could be an improvement in the situation but I =
seriously=20
doubt it. I've seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same =
for this=20
region of states all the way to Cali.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This study is one of the first to =
estimate the=20
total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous =
studies=20
have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs =
or tax=20
payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds =
that, when=20
all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, =
illegal=20
households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more =
than $10=20
billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for =
illegal=20
aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 =
billion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html</FONT></A></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Washington Post found about the same=20
thing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Households headed by illegal aliens =
imposed more=20
than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid =
only $16=20
billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or =
$2,700 per=20
illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the =
study.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.ht=
ml"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.h=
tml</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here's a 2004 finding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D" http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56=
_5812_5_04.txt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_5=
6_5812_5_04.txt</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Deportation doesn't seem such a great=20
idea</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<H2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>27 July 2005</FONT></H2>
<DIV class=3Dpost>
<H3 class=3Dstorytitle id=3Dpost-460><A=20
title=3D"Permanent Link: New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost =
$41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American Express??"=20
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ "=20
rel=3Dbookmark><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>New Study: Deporting Illegal =
Aliens Will=20
Cost $41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American =
Express??</FONT></A></H3>
<DIV class=3Dmeta><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[</FONT><A=20
title=3D"Posts by Bryanna Bevens"=20
href=3D"http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D1>Bryanna Bevens</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>] @ 11:24 =
am [</FONT><A=20
title=3D"Email author about this article"=20
href=3D"mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=3DNew Study: Deporting =
Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American =
Express??"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1>Email author</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D1>] </FONT><A title=3D"[Email This Article]"=20
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ema=
il/"=20
rel=3Dnofollow><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[Email This =
Article]</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1> </FONT><A title=3D"[Print This Article]"=20
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/pri=
nt/"=20
rel=3Dnofollow><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[Print This =
Article]</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1> </FONT></DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Recently, former =
Speaker of the=20
House Newt Gingrich suggested that we round up and deport the millions =
of=20
illegal aliens who currently reside in the U.S. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Silly mortal=85what =
on earth was he=20
thinking? Simple solutions to complicated problems just confuse the =
powers that=20
be=96he should have used graphs and flow charts=85you know, visual aids =
that provide=20
an opportunity for interpretation. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>To discourage the =
idea, the=20
</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.americanprogress.org/"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D1>Center=20
for American Progress </FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D1>(CAP=96whatever that=92s=20
supposed to be) prepared a sort of makeshift </FONT><A=20
href=3D" http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=3DbiJRJ8OVF&am p;amp;b=3D=
913099"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1>cost/benefit analysis </FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D1>for=20
deporting millions of illegal aliens. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Hmm=85I wonder what =
they=20
determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise=85the cost is astronomical. In =
fact,=20
according to CAP, the solution is cost prohibitive.</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[extracted from the =
report linked=20
below]</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>=93Using publicly =
available data, we=20
estimate the costs of a mass deportation effort to be at least $206 =
billion over=20
five years ($41.2 billion annually), and could be as high as $230 =
billion or=20
more. Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of =
the=20
Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more =
than double=20
the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8=20
billion).=94</FONT></P>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><A=20
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ "><=
FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-il=
legal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-americ an-express/ </=
FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I could go on and =
you could go=20
on, but really... what's the point in google warring?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Which leads me to =
believe if=20
life here gets tougher for the illegals, they'll pack up and go home or =
at least=20
a portion of them will, without blasting more tax payer money at the =
problem. I=20
hate that it's come to trying to close off our borders but how much =
money down=20
the tube and how many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for =
that to=20
sink in?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Will there be a =
gaping hole in=20
the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it blow apart our economy. I think =
we'll=20
certainly feel it in goods/services but the big question lies in will =
the=20
spending in the medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh =
it, andd=20
how does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our =
legal=20
jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves =
and=20
family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans =
or any=20
other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and =
those=20
around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a =
different way=20
than I do. </FONT></DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now the crux of this =
conversation=20
lies here. Do you think we should all pony up for free health care or =
not? The=20
rest is semantics, numbers playing and guess work and I say this to =
anyone=20
that wants to mandate more of my paycheck out of me and my family's =
hands: If=20
you want to pay for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice =
expensive=20
money pit volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I =
want to=20
pay for it too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake =
that I am=20
not a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my =
dudes/dudettes. I=20
think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty =
about=20
that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't =
mind=20
giving. But I want to give smart. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What I won't do is =
hand out to=20
make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my friends/my community have =
to=20
continue the payments and they have to stay enslaved to a 'care' system =
that=20
doesn't teach them to do for themselves if they are able. If they are =
not, that=20
needs to be handled differently per case. And, if they've snuck into my =
house=20
and are eating my family's food why on God's green earth would I hand =
them=20
something else out of my house bank account?</FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><BR>> <BR>> Ideally we should start by designing a =
working system=20
for citizens. We <BR>> can and should address the immigration issue=20
separately.<BR>> </FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My point is that it is not a separate =
issue, but=20
linked. We may just have to disagree about that one. I've been in =
and out=20
of hospitals the last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a =
girlfriend post=20
brain tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing =
bro, first=20
hand. I could relate some horror stories.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, =
priorities and such :)</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>> Cheers,<BR>> -Jamie<BR>> =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.jamiekrutz.com/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>www.JamieKrutz.com</FONT></A></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>Cheers back atcha'</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>AA</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
<BR>> <BR>>=20
Aaron Allen wrote:<BR>>> "LaMOnt " <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>jjdpro@ameritech.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:46755eae$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:46755eae$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>>> Aaron please read my last post. My question =
to those=20
who think like you <BR>>>> is:<BR>>>> "Then, what is =
the=20
cure"??<BR>>> <BR>>> I did read you last post, which =
prompted mine.=20
Let me elaborate since you <BR>>> don't see what I =
meant.<BR>>>=20
<BR>>> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest=20
denominator, then <BR>>> hold the<BR>>>> payment as long =
as you=20
possibly can. Let's not even get into the<BR>>>> 'entitlement' =
problems=20
or running away any decent health care worker <BR>>>>=20
because<BR>>>> of govt mandates.<BR>>>> Does the =
current=20
health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the fed<BR>>>> =
gov't=20
doing it? NO.<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> The cure. That's not =
easy,=20
nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd <BR>>> approach it as a =
layered=20
answer, like almost all problems in life, and see <BR>>> what =
works. What=20
works will depend on so many variables, like region, <BR>>> =
patient,=20
nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing of =
<BR>>>=20
symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....=20
<BR>>> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however =
I think=20
the very <BR>>> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and =
free=20
riders. Illegals? <BR>>> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the =
hospital=20
because we're tired of you <BR>>> sucking the life out of our =
economy.=20
Welfare? You're likely to be in line <BR>>> behind the guys that =
have=20
prepaid through insurance or other programs. Don't <BR>>> like it? =
Get=20
legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and <BR>>> =
insurance=20
like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? At this =
<BR>>>=20
point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck =
for=20
<BR>>> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. =
At this=20
point <BR>>> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much =
ripping=20
off going too <BR>>> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I =
pay=20
insurance and I take the best <BR>>> care of my self as I possibly =
can.=20
So, explain to me why should I have to <BR>>> buy healthcare for =
someone=20
who doesn't?<BR>>> <BR>>> And that is 'exactly' the problem =
with=20
entitlement. Too many people feel <BR>>> entitled to sit on their =
asses=20
and collect welfare and debt free health care <BR>>> as it is on =
the backs=20
of those that work for a living. Gov't has got a real <BR>>> =
historical=20
problem with handling that particular because entitlement becomes =
<BR>>>=20
dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not =
necessarily=20
<BR>>> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem =
with=20
bribery like <BR>>> that. I've seen it in business practices and =
I've seen=20
it in gov't and I'm <BR>>> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* =
becomes=20
*now you need me to survive so <BR>>> you better do what I say or =
I'll cut=20
you off*. You can't seriously not see <BR>>> that. Jesus saw it. =
Teach a=20
man to fish.. ringing any bells?<BR>>> <BR>>>> If we are =
waiting=20
on big business to continue to foot the bill for <BR>>>>=20
employer<BR>>>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are =
coming to=20
and drastic end. <BR>>>> Even<BR>>>> with the =
employers like=20
GM are not going to continue to give their <BR>>>>=20
employee<BR>>>> top notch medical care.<BR>>> =
<BR>>> Nope,=20
they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being bilked =
<BR>>>=20
for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is =
very=20
<BR>>> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy =
lawyers/clients and=20
free <BR>>> loaders.<BR>>> <BR>>>> This is a =
cultural=20
issure. Tehre are those in this country who belive that<BR>>>> =
great=20
health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford =
it..<BR>>>=20
<BR>>> There are those that believe it should be given scot free =
to them=20
from my <BR>>> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless =
you count=20
illegal entry <BR>>> into the country and laziness as a culture. =
Add=20
welfare state to that, <BR>>> though it's not a 100% as are not =
the other=20
catagories. Unfortunately we <BR>>> don't have the resources to=20
successfully divide these groups into the <BR>>> trying/not trying =
sub=20
groups with exception to the laziness group.<BR>>> =
<BR>>>> Now:=20
other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay=20
for<BR>>>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) =
today???=20
Not many <BR>>>> families<BR>>>> can afford on average =
$600-1000 per month for health care..With rising <BR>>>>=20
fuel<BR>>>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget =
for=20
mant these days..<BR>>> <BR>>> Where did those figures arive =
from?=20
I'm not saying health care 'is' <BR>>> affordable, but I would =
like to get=20
some idea of how you came to those <BR>>> numbers as an=20
average.<BR>>> <BR>>>> And, if you are one of fortunate=20
millionairs, well, you are only one <BR>>>> =
catstrophic<BR>>>>=20
illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's=20
<BR>>>> horrible!!<BR>>>> to work hard to acheive =
financial=20
freedom, only to have it sucked from you<BR>>>> because you =
"aford=20
it"... What happens when another loved one has some <BR>>>>=20
debilitating<BR>>>> disorder ????<BR>>> <BR>>> =
Millionaire=20
or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or super broke =
<BR>>>=20
makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your =
money=20
<BR>>> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age =
is=20
considered a <BR>>> long term illness these days, curable only by =
death.=20
That sucks, but it's a <BR>>> reality we all better prepare for in =
the=20
event we live into retirement or <BR>>> beyond.<BR>>>=20
<BR>>>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as =
a 60-70=20
percent <BR>>>> "supplement"<BR>>>> to your employer =
or self=20
paid medical plan, then all can have dignified <BR>>>>=20
health<BR>>>> coverage.<BR>>> <BR>>> And who pays =
the other=20
30-40 percent on those that are here illegal (how <BR>>> would you =
collect=20
on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on welfare or <BR>>> =
don't=20
have insurance/money?<BR>>> <BR>>> Our employers, reflected =
back to=20
the cost of their goods and what they can <BR>>> pay us for =
producing=20
them. That's right.. right back where we are now. Those <BR>>> =
that have=20
will not have for long because those that don't will take it away =
<BR>>>=20
through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets =
screwed=20
<BR>>> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again =
through the=20
health <BR>>> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't =
supplement.=20
Any fool can look <BR>>> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) =
and see=20
what will happen. I've <BR>>> been paying my life on a fund that =
I'm=20
likely to never collect upon. I'm not <BR>>> willing to add =
another to=20
that list. Entitlement is crap and it doesn't work <BR>>> for any =
length=20
of time before becoming corruption.<BR>>> <BR>>> Sorry man, =
I don't=20
see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've got to <BR>>> =
start=20
dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so many =
<BR>>>=20
things are a result of this root issue.<BR>>> <BR>>> =
AA<BR>>>=20
<BR>>>><BR>>>> "Aaron Allen" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>know-spam@not_here.dude</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>>=20
wrote:<BR>>>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first =
hand=20
experience that the <BR>>>>> 'govt'<BR>>>>> way =
is to=20
beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold=20
the<BR>>>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not =
even get=20
into the<BR>>>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any =
decent=20
health care worker <BR>>>>> because<BR>>>>> of =
govt=20
mandates.<BR>>>>> Does the current health system need work?=20
Absolutely. Do we need the fed<BR>>>>> gov't doing it?=20
NO.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>=20
AA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "DJ" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:467556c0$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:467556c0$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>>>>> "LaMont" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>jjdpro@ameritech.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
wrote in=20
message <BR>>>>>> </FONT><A =
href=3D"news:4674c045$1@linux"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>news:4674c045$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>...<BR>>>>>>> The reason for the new film =
SICKO.. I=20
really don't under stand those<BR>>>> =
who<BR>>>>>>>=20
say<BR>>>>>>> they don;t want a national health care=20
system.<BR>>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>> It's not =
until=20
the current medical/Insurance system reams you and=20
yours<BR>>>>>>> then<BR>>>>>>> do =
you 'see=20
why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even=20
wost<BR>>>>>>> job.<BR>>>>>>> That=20
Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can=20
hear<BR>>>>>>> someone<BR>>>>>>> =
saying by=20
who??<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>> The reason that these =
doctors=20
are not taking Medicare patients is <BR>>>>>>=20
because<BR>>>>>> the government runs it in such a =
wonderful=20
way.<BR>>>>><BR>>> =
<BR>>></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C7B200.30434E90--
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86923 is a reply to message #86884] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 05:43 |
gmmccurdy
Messages: 51
Registered: May 2007
|
Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7B30E.C34D0FF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
wow Aaron, nice of you to do the research for people. :) =20
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message =
news:46775cb2@linux...
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message =
news:467591fd@linux...
>=20
> Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of =
providing=20
> health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>=20
> Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>=20
> Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by =
the=20
> low wages they are paid?
>=20
> I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are =
using.
This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part, =
could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've =
seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region =
of states all the way to Cali.
This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal =
immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on =
the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, =
but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when =
all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, =
illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of =
more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an =
amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly =
$29 billion.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
Washington Post found about the same thing
"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion =
in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in =
taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per =
illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
Here's a 2004 finding
=
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_=
04.txt
SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.=20
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
27 July 2005
New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year.Do =
They Take American Express??
[Bryanna Bevens] @ 11:24 am [Email author] [Email This Article] =
[Print This Article]=20
Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we =
round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside =
in the U.S.=20
Silly mortal.what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to =
complicated problems just confuse the powers that be-he should have used =
graphs and flow charts.you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity =
for interpretation.=20
To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress (CAP-whatever =
that's supposed to be) prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit =
analysis for deporting millions of illegal aliens.=20
Hmm.I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise.the =
cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost =
prohibitive.
[extracted from the report linked below]
"Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass =
deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2 =
billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. =
Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the =
Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more =
than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 =
billion)."
=
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-ali=
ens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-american-expres s/
I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in =
google warring?
Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals, =
they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without =
blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to =
trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how =
many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will =
it blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in =
goods/services but the big question lies in will the spending in the =
medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how =
does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our legal =
jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves =
and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, =
Mexicans or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house =
and ourselves and those around us. Perhaps others just see =
responsibility in a different way than I do.=20
Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should =
all pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers =
playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate =
more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay =
for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit =
volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for it =
too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am not =
a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes. =
I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about =
that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't =
mind giving. But I want to give smart.=20
What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my =
family/my friends/my community have to continue the payments and they =
have to stay enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do =
for themselves if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be =
handled differently per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and =
are eating my family's food why on God's green earth would I hand them =
something else out of my house bank account?
>=20
> Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. =
We=20
> can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>=20
My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just =
have to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the =
last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain =
tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, =
first hand. I could relate some horror stories.
Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such =
:)
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
Cheers back atcha'
AA
>=20
>=20
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message =
news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think =
like you=20
>>> is:
>>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>=20
>> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate =
since you=20
>> don't see what I meant.
>>=20
>> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest =
denominator, then=20
>> hold the
>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care =
worker=20
>>> because
>>> of govt mandates.
>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need =
the fed
>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. =
I'd=20
>> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life, =
and see=20
>> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like =
region,=20
>> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, =
cure/easing of=20
>> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, =
etc....=20
>> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think =
the very=20
>> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. =
Illegals?=20
>> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired =
of you=20
>> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be =
in line=20
>> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other =
programs. Don't=20
>> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes =
and=20
>> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. =
Necessary? At this=20
>> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train =
wreck for=20
>> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this =
point=20
>> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off =
going too=20
>> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take =
the best=20
>> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I =
have to=20
>> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>=20
>> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people =
feel=20
>> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free =
health care=20
>> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has =
got a real=20
>> historical problem with handling that particular because =
entitlement becomes=20
>> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not =
necessarily=20
>> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with =
bribery like=20
>> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't =
and I'm=20
>> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to =
survive so=20
>> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously =
not see=20
>> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>=20
>>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for =
>>> employer
>>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic =
end.=20
>>> Even
>>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their =
>>> employee
>>> top notch medical care.
>>=20
>> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being =
bilked=20
>> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That =
is very=20
>> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and =
free=20
>> loaders.
>>=20
>>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who =
belive that
>>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can =
afford it..
>>=20
>> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them =
from my=20
>> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal =
entry=20
>> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to =
that,=20
>> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. =
Unfortunately we=20
>> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into =
the=20
>> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>=20
>>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can =
pay for
>>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not =
many=20
>>> families
>>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With =
rising=20
>>> fuel
>>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these =
days..
>>=20
>> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is' =
>> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to =
those=20
>> numbers as an average.
>>=20
>>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only =
one=20
>>> catstrophic
>>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's=20
>>> horrible!!
>>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked =
from you
>>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has =
some=20
>>> debilitating
>>> disorder ????
>>=20
>> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or =
super broke=20
>> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your =
money=20
>> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is =
considered a=20
>> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, =
but it's a=20
>> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into =
retirement or=20
>> beyond.
>>=20
>>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70 =
percent=20
>>> "supplement"
>>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have =
dignified=20
>>> health
>>> coverage.
>>=20
>> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal =
(how=20
>> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on =
welfare or=20
>> don't have insurance/money?
>>=20
>> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what =
they can=20
>> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are =
now. Those=20
>> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take =
it away=20
>> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe =
gets screwed=20
>> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the =
health=20
>> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool =
can look=20
>> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. =
I've=20
>> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect =
upon. I'm not=20
>> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it =
doesn't work=20
>> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>=20
>> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've =
got to=20
>> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because =
so many=20
>> things are a result of this root issue.
>>=20
>> AA
>>=20
>>>
>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that =
the=20
>>>> 'govt'
>>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then =
hold the
>>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care =
worker=20
>>>> because
>>>> of govt mandates.
>>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need =
the fed
>>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>>
>>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote in message =
news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message=20
>>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand =
those
>>> who
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you =
and yours
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a =
even wost
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can =
hear
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> saying by who??
>>>>
>>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients =
is=20
>>>>> because
>>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>>
>>=20
>>
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7B30E.C34D0FF0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>wow Aaron, nice of you to do the =
research for=20
people. :) </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Aaron Allen" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude">know-spam@not_here.dude</A>> =
wrote in=20
message <A =
href=3D"news:46775cb2@linux">news:46775cb2@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Jamie K" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Meta@Dimensional.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:467591fd@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:467591fd@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Aaron, do you have any =
sources of=20
data for the actual cost of providing <BR>> health care to illegal =
aliens?=20
What numbers are you using?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Do you know the amount =
of taxes=20
paid by illegal aliens?<BR>> <BR>> Do you know the amount of =
money saved=20
in the economy, overall, by the <BR>> low wages they are =
paid?<BR>>=20
<BR>> I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats =
you are=20
using.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This'll get you started. And they're =
old numbers=20
for the most part, could be an improvement in the situation but I =
seriously=20
doubt it. I've seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same =
for=20
this region of states all the way to Cali.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This study is one of the first to =
estimate the=20
total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most =
previous=20
studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined =
only costs=20
or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study =
finds=20
that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are =
considered,=20
illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level =
of more=20
than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an =
amnesty for=20
illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29=20
billion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html</FONT></A></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Washington Post found about the same=20
thing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Households headed by illegal aliens =
imposed more=20
than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid =
only=20
$16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, =
or=20
$2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the=20
study.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A=20
=
href=3D" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.ht=
ml"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.h=
tml</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here's a 2004 finding</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A=20
=
href=3D" http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56=
_5812_5_04.txt"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_5=
6_5812_5_04.txt</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 =
study.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Deportation doesn't seem such a great =
idea</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<H2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>27 July 2005</FONT></H2>
<DIV class=3Dpost>
<H3 class=3Dstorytitle id=3Dpost-460><A=20
title=3D"Permanent Link: New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost =
$41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American Express??"=20
=
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ "=20
rel=3Dbookmark><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>New Study: Deporting =
Illegal Aliens Will=20
Cost $41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American =
Express??</FONT></A></H3>
<DIV class=3Dmeta><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[</FONT><A=20
title=3D"Posts by Bryanna Bevens"=20
href=3D"http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D1>Bryanna Bevens</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>] @ =
11:24 am=20
[</FONT><A title=3D"Email author about this article"=20
href=3D"mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=3DNew Study: Deporting =
Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year=85Do They Take American =
Express??"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1>Email author</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D1>] </FONT><A title=3D"[Email This Article]"=20
=
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ema=
il/"=20
rel=3Dnofollow><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[Email This =
Article]</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1> </FONT><A title=3D"[Print This Article]"=20
=
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/pri=
nt/"=20
rel=3Dnofollow><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[Print This =
Article]</FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1> </FONT></DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Recently, former =
Speaker of the=20
House Newt Gingrich suggested that we round up and deport the millions =
of=20
illegal aliens who currently reside in the U.S. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Silly =
mortal=85what on earth was=20
he thinking? Simple solutions to complicated problems just confuse the =
powers=20
that be=96he should have used graphs and flow charts=85you know, =
visual aids that=20
provide an opportunity for interpretation. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>To discourage the =
idea, the=20
</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.americanprogress.org/"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D1>Center for American Progress </FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D1>(CAP=96whatever that=92s supposed to be) prepared a sort of =
makeshift=20
</FONT><A=20
=
href=3D" http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=3DbiJRJ8OVF&am p;amp;b=3D=
913099"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D1>cost/benefit analysis </FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D1>for=20
deporting millions of illegal aliens. </FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Hmm=85I wonder =
what they=20
determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise=85the cost is astronomical. =
In fact,=20
according to CAP, the solution is cost prohibitive.</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>[extracted from =
the report=20
linked below]</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>=93Using publicly =
available data,=20
we estimate the costs of a mass deportation effort to be at least $206 =
billion=20
over five years ($41.2 billion annually), and could be as high as $230 =
billion=20
or more. Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire =
budget of the=20
Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more =
than=20
double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8=20
billion).=94</FONT></P>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><A=20
=
href=3D" http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-ill=
egal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-america n-express/ "><=
FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-il=
legal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-americ an-express/ </=
FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I could go on =
and you could go=20
on, but really... what's the point in google warring?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Which leads me =
to believe if=20
life here gets tougher for the illegals, they'll pack up and go home =
or at=20
least a portion of them will, without blasting more tax payer money at =
the=20
problem. I hate that it's come to trying to close off our borders but =
how much=20
money down the tube and how many terrorist bombs is it really going to =
take=20
for that to sink in?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Will there be a =
gaping hole in=20
the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it blow apart our economy. I =
think we'll=20
certainly feel it in goods/services but the big question lies in will =
the=20
spending in the medical expenses and free rides in the country =
outweigh it,=20
andd how does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of =
our=20
legal jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed =
themselves=20
and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, =
Mexicans=20
or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and =
ourselves=20
and those around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility =
in a=20
different way than I do. </FONT></DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now the crux of =
this=20
conversation lies here. Do you think we should all pony up for free =
health=20
care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers playing and guess =
work and I=20
say this to anyone that wants to mandate more of my paycheck out of me =
and my=20
family's hands: If you want to pay for it, go right ahead. Vote =
yourself into=20
a nice expensive money pit volunteer 'program'. Just don't =
get the=20
idea that I want to pay for it too, or that I won't fight it the whole =
way.=20
Don't mistake that I am not a compassionate man, or have heart or =
ability to=20
help my dudes/dudettes. I think years of taking a hand here =
really=20
ought to say plenty about that spirit, and things not generally public =
knowledge about me. I don't mind giving. But I want to give smart. =
</FONT></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What I won't do is =
hand out to=20
make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my friends/my =
community have to=20
continue the payments and they have to stay enslaved to a 'care' =
system that=20
doesn't teach them to do for themselves if they are able. If they are =
not,=20
that needs to be handled differently per case. And, if they've snuck =
into my=20
house and are eating my family's food why on God's green earth would I =
hand=20
them something else out of my house bank account?</FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><BR>> <BR>> Ideally we should start by designing a =
working system=20
for citizens. We <BR>> can and should address the immigration issue =
separately.<BR>> </FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My point is that it is not a separate =
issue, but=20
linked. We may just have to disagree about that one. I've been in =
and out=20
of hospitals the last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a =
girlfriend post=20
brain tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing =
bro,=20
first hand. I could relate some horror stories.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's =
Day,=20
priorities and such :)</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>> Cheers,<BR>> =
-Jamie<BR>> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.jamiekrutz.com/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>www.JamieKrutz.com</FONT></A></P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>Cheers back atcha'</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent>AA</P>
<P class=3Dstorycontent></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
<BR>>=20
<BR>> Aaron Allen wrote:<BR>>> "LaMOnt " <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>jjdpro@ameritech.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:46755eae$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:46755eae$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>>> Aaron please read my last post. My =
question to=20
those who think like you <BR>>>> is:<BR>>>> "Then, =
what is=20
the cure"??<BR>>> <BR>>> I did read you last post, which =
prompted=20
mine. Let me elaborate since you <BR>>> don't see what I=20
meant.<BR>>> <BR>>> the 'govt' way is to beat down the =
vendor to=20
the lowest denominator, then <BR>>> hold the<BR>>>> =
payment as=20
long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the<BR>>>>=20
'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker=20
<BR>>>> because<BR>>>> of govt =
mandates.<BR>>>>=20
Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the=20
fed<BR>>>> gov't doing it? NO.<BR>>> <BR>>> =
<BR>>>=20
The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd=20
<BR>>> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems =
in=20
life, and see <BR>>> what works. What works will depend on so =
many=20
variables, like region, <BR>>> patient, nature of illness, how =
the=20
illness was obtained, cure/easing of <BR>>> symptoms, procedures =
involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc.... <BR>>> =
Calculating for=20
those variables will be a mountain, however I think the very =
<BR>>>=20
first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders. =
Illegals?=20
<BR>>> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because =
we're=20
tired of you <BR>>> sucking the life out of our economy. =
Welfare? You're=20
likely to be in line <BR>>> behind the guys that have prepaid =
through=20
insurance or other programs. Don't <BR>>> like it? Get legal, =
get=20
registered, get a job, start paying taxes and <BR>>> insurance =
like the=20
legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary? At this <BR>>> =
point,=20
yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck for=20
<BR>>> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. =
At this=20
point <BR>>> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much =
ripping=20
off going too <BR>>> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I =
pay=20
insurance and I take the best <BR>>> care of my self as I =
possibly can.=20
So, explain to me why should I have to <BR>>> buy healthcare for =
someone=20
who doesn't?<BR>>> <BR>>> And that is 'exactly' the =
problem with=20
entitlement. Too many people feel <BR>>> entitled to sit on =
their asses=20
and collect welfare and debt free health care <BR>>> as it is on =
the=20
backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got a real =
<BR>>>=20
historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement =
becomes=20
<BR>>> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats =
but not=20
necessarily <BR>>> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a =
huge=20
problem with bribery like <BR>>> that. I've seen it in business=20
practices and I've seen it in gov't and I'm <BR>>> sick of it. =
*Here,=20
let me help you* becomes *now you need me to survive so <BR>>> =
you=20
better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously not see =
<BR>>> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any=20
bells?<BR>>> <BR>>>> If we are waiting on big business =
to=20
continue to foot the bill for <BR>>>> =
employer<BR>>>> pid=20
medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.=20
<BR>>>> Even<BR>>>> with the employers like GM are =
not going=20
to continue to give their <BR>>>> employee<BR>>>> =
top notch=20
medical care.<BR>>> <BR>>> Nope, they're not going to =
continue it.=20
Everyone is tired of being bilked <BR>>> for being responsible =
by those=20
that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is very <BR>>> very likely =
to have=20
come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and free <BR>>>=20
loaders.<BR>>> <BR>>>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre =
are=20
those in this country who belive that<BR>>>> great health =
care is not=20
for all , but only to those who can afford it..<BR>>> =
<BR>>> There=20
are those that believe it should be given scot free to them from my=20
<BR>>> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you =
count=20
illegal entry <BR>>> into the country and laziness as a culture. =
Add=20
welfare state to that, <BR>>> though it's not a 100% as are not =
the=20
other catagories. Unfortunately we <BR>>> don't have the =
resources to=20
successfully divide these groups into the <BR>>> trying/not =
trying sub=20
groups with exception to the laziness group.<BR>>> =
<BR>>>> Now:=20
other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can pay=20
for<BR>>>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) =
today???=20
Not many <BR>>>> families<BR>>>> can afford on =
average=20
$600-1000 per month for health care..With rising <BR>>>>=20
fuel<BR>>>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the =
budget for=20
mant these days..<BR>>> <BR>>> Where did those figures =
arive from?=20
I'm not saying health care 'is' <BR>>> affordable, but I would =
like to=20
get some idea of how you came to those <BR>>> numbers as an=20
average.<BR>>> <BR>>>> And, if you are one of fortunate =
millionairs, well, you are only one <BR>>>>=20
catstrophic<BR>>>> illness away from seeing all of your =
fortune=20
sucked away...That's <BR>>>> horrible!!<BR>>>> to =
work hard=20
to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked from =
you<BR>>>>=20
because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some =
<BR>>>> debilitating<BR>>>> disorder =
????<BR>>>=20
<BR>>> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super =
rich or=20
super broke <BR>>> makes no difference here. At current =
system/rates,=20
they'll get your money <BR>>> for any serious long term illness =
either=20
way. And old age is considered a <BR>>> long term illness these =
days,=20
curable only by death. That sucks, but it's a <BR>>> reality we =
all=20
better prepare for in the event we live into retirement or =
<BR>>>=20
beyond.<BR>>> <BR>>>> The goverment system won't be =
great, but=20
if packaged as a 60-70 percent <BR>>>> =
"supplement"<BR>>>>=20
to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have =
dignified=20
<BR>>>> health<BR>>>> coverage.<BR>>> =
<BR>>> And=20
who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal (how=20
<BR>>> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), =
live on=20
welfare or <BR>>> don't have insurance/money?<BR>>> =
<BR>>>=20
Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what they =
can=20
<BR>>> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back =
where we are=20
now. Those <BR>>> that have will not have for long because those =
that=20
don't will take it away <BR>>> through gov't mandate and the law =
of=20
economics. The average Joe gets screwed <BR>>> again. We'll pay =
for the=20
poor through taxes, then again through the health <BR>>> care =
overages=20
we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool can look =
<BR>>> at=20
social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen. I've=20
<BR>>> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never =
collect=20
upon. I'm not <BR>>> willing to add another to that list. =
Entitlement is=20
crap and it doesn't work <BR>>> for any length of time before =
becoming=20
corruption.<BR>>> <BR>>> Sorry man, I don't see this =
working. But=20
it's a nice thought. We've got to <BR>>> start dealing with our =
border=20
and overpopulation problems because so many <BR>>> things are a =
result=20
of this root issue.<BR>>> <BR>>> AA<BR>>>=20
<BR>>>><BR>>>> "Aaron Allen" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>know-spam@not_here.dude</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>>=20
wrote:<BR>>>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now =
first hand=20
experience that the <BR>>>>> 'govt'<BR>>>>> =
way is to=20
beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold=20
the<BR>>>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not =
even=20
get into the<BR>>>>> 'entitlement' problems or running =
away any=20
decent health care worker <BR>>>>> =
because<BR>>>>> of=20
govt mandates.<BR>>>>> Does the current health system need =
work?=20
Absolutely. Do we need the fed<BR>>>>> gov't doing it?=20
NO.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>=20
AA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "DJ" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:467556c0$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:467556c0$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>>>>> "LaMont" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>jjdpro@ameritech.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>> wrote in=20
message <BR>>>>>> </FONT><A =
href=3D"news:4674c045$1@linux"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>news:4674c045$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>...<BR>>>>>>> The reason for the new film =
SICKO.. I=20
really don't under stand those<BR>>>> =
who<BR>>>>>>>=20
say<BR>>>>>>> they don;t want a national health care =
system.<BR>>>>>>> <BR>>>>>>> It's =
not until=20
the current medical/Insurance system reams you and=20
yours<BR>>>>>>> then<BR>>>>>>> do =
you 'see=20
why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a even=20
wost<BR>>>>>>> job.<BR>>>>>>> That =
Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can=20
hear<BR>>>>>>> someone<BR>>>>>>> =
saying by=20
who??<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>> The reason that =
these=20
doctors are not taking Medicare patients is <BR>>>>>>=20
because<BR>>>>>> the government runs it in such a =
wonderful=20
way.<BR>>>>><BR>>>=20
<BR>>></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML >
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7B30E.C34D0FF0--
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86960 is a reply to message #86884] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 09:33 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks for the links Aaron, I'll take a look.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Aaron Allen wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
> message news:467591fd@linux...
> >
> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of providing
> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
> > low wages they are paid?
> >
> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
> using.
>
> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
> of states all the way to Cali.
>
> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
> $29 billion.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>
> Washington Post found about the same thing
> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>
> Here's a 2004 finding
> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>
> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>
> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>
>
> 27 July 2005
>
>
> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
> Year…Do They Take American Express??
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>
> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
> Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They
> Take American Express??>] [Email This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
> [Print This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>
> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
> in the U.S.
>
> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
> for interpretation.
>
> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>
> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
> cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
> prohibitive.
>
> [extracted from the report linked below]
>
> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
> Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the
> Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more
> than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8
> billion).”
>
> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>
> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
> google warring?
>
> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>
> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
> goods/services but the big question lies in will the spending in the
> medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how
> does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our legal
> jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves
> and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs,
> Mexicans or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house
> and ourselves and those around us. Perhaps others just
> see responsibility in a different way than I do.
>
> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money
> pit volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
> it too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
> not a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
> dudes/dudettes. I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say
> plenty about that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge
> about me. I don't mind giving. But I want to give smart.
>
> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
> house bank account?
>
> >
> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
> >
>
> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
> have to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the
> last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain
> tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro,
> first hand. I could relate some horror stories.
>
>
> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>
> > Cheers,
> > -Jamie
> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>
> Cheers back atcha'
>
> AA
>
>
> >
> >
> > Aaron Allen wrote:
> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
> you
> >>> is:
> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
> >>
> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
> since you
> >> don't see what I meant.
> >>
> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
> then
> >> hold the
> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>> because
> >>> of govt mandates.
> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>
> >>
> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
> and see
> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
> cure/easing of
> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
> the very
> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
> Illegals?
> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
> of you
> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
> line
> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
> programs. Don't
> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
> At this
> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
> wreck for
> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
> too
> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
> the best
> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
> have to
> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
> >>
> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
> feel
> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
> health care
> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
> a real
> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
> becomes
> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
> necessarily
> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
> like
> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
> and I'm
> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
> survive so
> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
> not see
> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
> >>
> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
> >>> employer
> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
> >>> Even
> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
> >>> employee
> >>> top notch medical care.
> >>
> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
> bilked
> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
> is very
> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
> free
> >> loaders.
> >>
> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
> belive that
> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
> it..
> >>
> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
> from my
> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
> entry
> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
> Unfortunately we
> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
> >>
> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
> pay for
> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
> >>> families
> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
> >>> fuel
> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
> days..
> >>
> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
> >> numbers as an average.
> >>
> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
> >>> catstrophic
> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
> >>> horrible!!
> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
> from you
> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
> >>> debilitating
> >>> disorder ????
> >>
> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
> super broke
> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
> money
> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
> considered a
> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
> it's a
> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
> retirement or
> >> beyond.
> >>
> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
> percent
> >>> "supplement"
> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
> dignified
> >>> health
> >>> coverage.
> >>
> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
> (how
> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
> welfare or
> >> don't have insurance/money?
> >>
> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
> they can
> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
> now. Those
> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
> it away
> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
> screwed
> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
> health
> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
> can look
> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
> I've
> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
> I'm not
> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
> doesn't work
> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
> >>
> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
> got to
> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
> many
> >> things are a result of this root issue.
> >>
> >> AA
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
> >>>> 'govt'
> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
> hold the
> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>>> because
> >>>> of govt mandates.
> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>>>
> >>>> AA
> >>>>
> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
> >>> who
> >>>>>> say
> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
> and yours
> >>>>>> then
> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
> even wost
> >>>>>> job.
> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> saying by who??
> >>>>
> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
> >>>>> because
> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86995 is a reply to message #86884] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 20:12 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
who hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
welfare).
Aaron Allen wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
> message news:467591fd@linux...
> >
> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of providing
> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
> >
> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
> > low wages they are paid?
> >
> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
> using.
>
> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
> of states all the way to Cali.
>
> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
> $29 billion.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>
> Washington Post found about the same thing
> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>
> Here's a 2004 finding
> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>
> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>
> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>
>
> 27 July 2005
>
>
> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
> Year…Do They Take American Express??
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>
> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
> Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They
> Take American Express??>] [Email This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
> [Print This Article]
> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>
> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
> in the U.S.
>
> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
> for interpretation.
>
> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>
> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
> cost is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
> prohibitive.
>
> [extracted from the report linked below]
>
> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
> Spending $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the
> Department of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more
> than double the annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8
> billion).”
>
> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>
> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
> google warring?
>
> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>
> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
> goods/services but the big question lies in will the spending in the
> medical expenses and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how
> does our legal low end applicants play into that? How many of our legal
> jobless will suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves
> and family, and better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs,
> Mexicans or any other cultures. It's about responsibility to our house
> and ourselves and those around us. Perhaps others just
> see responsibility in a different way than I do.
>
> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money
> pit volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
> it too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
> not a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
> dudes/dudettes. I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say
> plenty about that spirit, and things not generally public knowledge
> about me. I don't mind giving. But I want to give smart.
>
> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
> house bank account?
>
> >
> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
> >
>
> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
> have to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the
> last year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain
> tumor. She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro,
> first hand. I could relate some horror stories.
>
>
> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>
> > Cheers,
> > -Jamie
> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>
> Cheers back atcha'
>
> AA
>
>
> >
> >
> > Aaron Allen wrote:
> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
> you
> >>> is:
> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
> >>
> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
> since you
> >> don't see what I meant.
> >>
> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
> then
> >> hold the
> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>> because
> >>> of govt mandates.
> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>
> >>
> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
> and see
> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
> cure/easing of
> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
> the very
> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
> Illegals?
> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
> of you
> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
> line
> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
> programs. Don't
> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
> At this
> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
> wreck for
> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this point
> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
> too
> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
> the best
> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
> have to
> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
> >>
> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
> feel
> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
> health care
> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
> a real
> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
> becomes
> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
> necessarily
> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
> like
> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
> and I'm
> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
> survive so
> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
> not see
> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
> >>
> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
> >>> employer
> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic end.
> >>> Even
> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
> >>> employee
> >>> top notch medical care.
> >>
> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
> bilked
> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
> is very
> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
> free
> >> loaders.
> >>
> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
> belive that
> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
> it..
> >>
> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
> from my
> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
> entry
> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to that,
> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
> Unfortunately we
> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
> >>
> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
> pay for
> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
> >>> families
> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With rising
> >>> fuel
> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
> days..
> >>
> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to those
> >> numbers as an average.
> >>
> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
> >>> catstrophic
> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
> >>> horrible!!
> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
> from you
> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has some
> >>> debilitating
> >>> disorder ????
> >>
> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
> super broke
> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
> money
> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
> considered a
> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
> it's a
> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
> retirement or
> >> beyond.
> >>
> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
> percent
> >>> "supplement"
> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
> dignified
> >>> health
> >>> coverage.
> >>
> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
> (how
> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
> welfare or
> >> don't have insurance/money?
> >>
> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
> they can
> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
> now. Those
> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
> it away
> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
> screwed
> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
> health
> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
> can look
> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
> I've
> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
> I'm not
> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
> doesn't work
> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
> >>
> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
> got to
> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
> many
> >> things are a result of this root issue.
> >>
> >> AA
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that the
> >>>> 'govt'
> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
> hold the
> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
> >>>> because
> >>>> of govt mandates.
> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the fed
> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
> >>>>
> >>>> AA
> >>>>
> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand those
> >>> who
> >>>>>> say
> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
> and yours
> >>>>>> then
> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
> even wost
> >>>>>> job.
> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can hear
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> saying by who??
> >>>>
> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
> >>>>> because
> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #86996 is a reply to message #86995] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 20:20 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Exactly. Cut off the free ride and the money and they'll be leaving. I'd be
just fine with paying a one time fee to scoot them out of the country, as
long as records are kept and they don't get a 2nd ride out/funds spent are
verifiable.
AA
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans who
> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
> welfare).
>
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>> >
>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>> providing
>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
>> > low wages they are paid?
>> >
>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>> using.
>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>> of states all the way to Cali.
>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>> $29 billion.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>> Here's a 2004 finding
>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>
>>
>> 27 July 2005
>>
>>
>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>
>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>> [Print This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>> in the U.S.
>>
>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>> for interpretation.
>>
>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>
>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the cost
>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>> prohibitive.
>>
>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>
>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double the
>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>
>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>> google warring?
>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family, and
>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way than
>> I do.
>>
>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for it
>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am not
>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about that
>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>
>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
>> house bank account?
>>
>> >
>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>> >
>>
>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just have
>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>> I could relate some horror stories.
>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>>
>> > Cheers,
>> > -Jamie
>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>
>> Cheers back atcha'
>>
>> AA
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>> you
>> >>> is:
>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>> >>
>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>> you
>> >> don't see what I meant.
>> >>
>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>> then
>> >> hold the
>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>> >>> because
>> >>> of govt mandates.
>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the
>> fed
>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>> and see
>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing
>> of
>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>> the very
>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>> Illegals?
>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>> of you
>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
>> line
>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>> programs. Don't
>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
>> At this
>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck
>> for
>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>> point
>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
>> too
>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>> the best
>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>> have to
>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>> >>
>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>> feel
>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>> health care
>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
>> a real
>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
>> becomes
>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>> necessarily
>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
>> like
>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>> and I'm
>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>> survive so
>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>> not see
>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>> >>
>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>> >>> employer
>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>> end.
>> >>> Even
>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>> >>> employee
>> >>> top notch medical care.
>> >>
>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>> bilked
>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is
>> very
>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>> free
>> >> loaders.
>> >>
>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>> belive that
>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
>> it..
>> >>
>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>> from my
>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>> entry
>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>> that,
>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately
>> we
>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>> >>
>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>> pay for
>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>> >>> families
>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>> rising
>> >>> fuel
>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>> days..
>> >>
>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>> those
>> >> numbers as an average.
>> >>
>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
>> >>> catstrophic
>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>> >>> horrible!!
>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>> from you
>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>> some
>> >>> debilitating
>> >>> disorder ????
>> >>
>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>> super broke
>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>> money
>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>> considered a
>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
>> it's a
>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>> retirement or
>> >> beyond.
>> >>
>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>> percent
>> >>> "supplement"
>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>> dignified
>> >>> health
>> >>> coverage.
>> >>
>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>> (how
>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>> welfare or
>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>> >>
>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>> they can
>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>> now. Those
>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>> it away
>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
>> screwed
>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>> health
>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>> can look
>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>> I've
>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
>> I'm not
>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>> doesn't work
>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>> got to
>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
>> many
>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>> >>
>> >> AA
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>> the
>> >>>> 'govt'
>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold
>> the
>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>> worker
>> >>>> because
>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>> the fed
>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> AA
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>> wrote in message
>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>> those
>> >>> who
>> >>>>>> say
>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>> yours
>> >>>>>> then
>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>> even wost
>> >>>>>> job.
>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>> hear
>> >>>>>> someone
>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>> >>>>> because
>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87004 is a reply to message #86996] |
Fri, 22 June 2007 04:32 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yep, I said that 4 months ago here. hehe
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Exactly. Cut off the free ride and the money and they'll be leaving. I'd
be
>just fine with paying a one time fee to scoot them out of the country, as
>long as records are kept and they don't get a 2nd ride out/funds spent are
>verifiable.
>
>AA
>
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
who
>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>> welfare).
>>
>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
in
>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>> >
>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>> providing
>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by
the
>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>> >
>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>>> using.
>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
on
>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
of
>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>>> $29 billion.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
in
>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>
>>>
>>> 27 July 2005
>>>
>>>
>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>>
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>
>>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>
>>> [Print This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>>> in the U.S.
>>>
>>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>>> for interpretation.
>>>
>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>
>>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
cost
>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>> prohibitive.
>>>
>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>
>>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
the
>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>>
>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>>> google warring?
>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
how
>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
it
>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
and
>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
than
>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
it
>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
not
>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
that
>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>
>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of
my
>>> house bank account?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
We
>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>> >
>>>
>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
have
>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
:)
>>>
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > -Jamie
>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>
>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>>> you
>>> >>> is:
>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>> >>
>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>>> you
>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>> >>
>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>>> then
>>> >> hold the
>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
the
>>> fed
>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
I'd
>>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>>> and see
>>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing
>>> of
>>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>>> the very
>>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>>> Illegals?
>>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>>> of you
>>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be
in
>>> line
>>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>>> programs. Don't
>>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes
and
>>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
>>> At this
>>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck
>>> for
>>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>>> point
>>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
>>> too
>>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>>> the best
>>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>>> have to
>>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>> >>
>>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>>> feel
>>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>>> health care
>>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has
got
>>> a real
>>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
>>> becomes
>>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>>> necessarily
>>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
>>> like
>>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>>> and I'm
>>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>>> survive so
>>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>>> not see
>>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>> >>
>>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>>> >>> employer
>>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>>> end.
>>> >>> Even
>>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>>> >>> employee
>>> >>> top notch medical care.
>>> >>
>>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>>> bilked
>>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
is
>>> very
>>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>>> free
>>> >> loaders.
>>> >>
>>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>>> belive that
>>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
>>> it..
>>> >>
>>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>>> from my
>>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>>> entry
>>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>>> that,
>>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately
>>> we
>>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into
the
>>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>>> pay for
>>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>>> >>> families
>>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>>> rising
>>> >>> fuel
>>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>>> days..
>>> >>
>>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>>> those
>>> >> numbers as an average.
>>> >>
>>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only
one
>>> >>> catstrophic
>>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>>> >>> horrible!!
>>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>>> from you
>>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>>> some
>>> >>> debilitating
>>> >>> disorder ????
>>> >>
>>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>>> super broke
>>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>>> money
>>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>>> considered a
>>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks,
but
>>> it's a
>>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>>> retirement or
>>> >> beyond.
>>> >>
>>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>>> percent
>>> >>> "supplement"
>>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>>> dignified
>>> >>> health
>>> >>> coverage.
>>> >>
>>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>>> (how
>>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>>> welfare or
>>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>>> >>
>>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>>> they can
>>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>>> now. Those
>>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>>> it away
>>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
>>> screwed
>>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>>> health
>>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>>> can look
>>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>>> I've
>>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
>>> I'm not
>>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>>> doesn't work
>>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>>> got to
>>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because
so
>>> many
>>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>>> >>
>>> >> AA
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>>> the
>>> >>>> 'govt'
>>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
hold
>>> the
>>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>> worker
>>> >>>> because
>>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>>> the fed
>>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>> wrote in message
>>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>>> those
>>> >>> who
>>> >>>>>> say
>>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
and
>>> yours
>>> >>>>>> then
>>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>>> even wost
>>> >>>>>> job.
>>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>>> hear
>>> >>>>>> someone
>>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients
is
>>> >>>>> because
>>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87006 is a reply to message #86995] |
Fri, 22 June 2007 05:35 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans who
> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
> welfare).
Build "major" fence.
Hire an additional 50K personnell to enforce existing borders and another
100k to enforce immigration laws, checking on emloyyers who hire migrant
workers and doing whatever duties are necessary to enforce INS laws.
Citizens of this country required to carry National ID (with proof of
citizenship required to get one).
Allow workers who are here illegally to stay if they have a job with an
employer
That employer must withhold taxes and provide a basic medical insurance
policy.-the employer is basically the workers sponsor at this point and is
reaponsible for him/her.
Employees must purchase vehicle insurance.
Worker receives a Worker-guest card that entitles them to basic
(rudimentary) medical services under employers medical insurance policy.
worker can buy supplemental healthcare which will be only good as long as
his/her status is legimate.
Worker can change jobs just like any American citizen.
Worker-guest card is forfeit upon leaving job and new "ttransitional " card
is issued - good for two weeks.
Workers can only receive social services with proof of
employment/worker-guest card or temporary "unexpired" transitional card.
If card expires, they are considered illegal and are subject to immediate
deportation and denial of all social services.
Employers receive a $20,000 fine *per instance* if caught hiring illegal
workers
No more sanctuary cities. Law enforcement is *required* to randomly check
national ID/worker cards
Profiling allowed (I hate this, but it's necessary)
If someone doesn't have valid National ID or workers card, they are detained
until they can show proof. No proof, you go back to country of origin.
Worker gets busted for serious misdemeanor.......goes home - can reapply for
worker permit within 1 year. Felony, goes to jail, then home.- never come
back.
Rescind the law that allows children born of non-citizens in this country to
be automatic citizens.
>
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote in
>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>> >
>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>> providing
>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>> >
>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by the
>> > low wages they are paid?
>> >
>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>> using.
>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>> of states all the way to Cali.
>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on
>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of
>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>> $29 billion.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>> Here's a 2004 finding
>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>
>>
>> 27 July 2005
>>
>>
>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>
>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>> [Print This Article]
>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>> in the U.S.
>>
>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>> for interpretation.
>>
>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>
>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the cost
>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>> prohibitive.
>>
>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>
>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double the
>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>
>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>> google warring?
>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and how
>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will it
>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family, and
>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way than
>> I do.
>>
>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for it
>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am not
>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about that
>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>
>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of my
>> house bank account?
>>
>> >
>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens. We
>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>> >
>>
>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just have
>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>> I could relate some horror stories.
>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such :)
>>
>> > Cheers,
>> > -Jamie
>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>
>> Cheers back atcha'
>>
>> AA
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>> you
>> >>> is:
>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>> >>
>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>> you
>> >> don't see what I meant.
>> >>
>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>> then
>> >> hold the
>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>> >>> because
>> >>> of govt mandates.
>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need the
>> fed
>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth. I'd
>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>> and see
>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing
>> of
>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>> the very
>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>> Illegals?
>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>> of you
>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be in
>> line
>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>> programs. Don't
>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes and
>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
>> At this
>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck
>> for
>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>> point
>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
>> too
>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>> the best
>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>> have to
>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>> >>
>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>> feel
>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>> health care
>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has got
>> a real
>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
>> becomes
>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>> necessarily
>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
>> like
>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>> and I'm
>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>> survive so
>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>> not see
>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>> >>
>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>> >>> employer
>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>> end.
>> >>> Even
>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>> >>> employee
>> >>> top notch medical care.
>> >>
>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>> bilked
>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That is
>> very
>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>> free
>> >> loaders.
>> >>
>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>> belive that
>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
>> it..
>> >>
>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>> from my
>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>> entry
>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>> that,
>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately
>> we
>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into the
>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>> >>
>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>> pay for
>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>> >>> families
>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>> rising
>> >>> fuel
>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>> days..
>> >>
>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>> those
>> >> numbers as an average.
>> >>
>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only one
>> >>> catstrophic
>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>> >>> horrible!!
>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>> from you
>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>> some
>> >>> debilitating
>> >>> disorder ????
>> >>
>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>> super broke
>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>> money
>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>> considered a
>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks, but
>> it's a
>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>> retirement or
>> >> beyond.
>> >>
>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>> percent
>> >>> "supplement"
>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>> dignified
>> >>> health
>> >>> coverage.
>> >>
>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>> (how
>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>> welfare or
>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>> >>
>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>> they can
>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>> now. Those
>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>> it away
>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
>> screwed
>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>> health
>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>> can look
>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>> I've
>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
>> I'm not
>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>> doesn't work
>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>> got to
>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because so
>> many
>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>> >>
>> >> AA
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>> the
>> >>>> 'govt'
>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then hold
>> the
>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>> worker
>> >>>> because
>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>> the fed
>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> AA
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>> wrote in message
>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>> those
>> >>> who
>> >>>>>> say
>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you and
>> yours
>> >>>>>> then
>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>> even wost
>> >>>>>> job.
>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>> hear
>> >>>>>> someone
>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients is
>> >>>>> because
>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87017 is a reply to message #87006] |
Fri, 22 June 2007 08:17 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Now Guys..Really now.
Do you realy think this goverment has the capacity and wherewithall to achieve
said list of DJ's??
Aren't you guys the ones who are always saying that the Gove can't run a
national health care system? How can they effectivly pull off this off??
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
who
>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>> welfare).
>
>Build "major" fence.
>Hire an additional 50K personnell to enforce existing borders and another
>100k to enforce immigration laws, checking on emloyyers who hire migrant
>workers and doing whatever duties are necessary to enforce INS laws.
>Citizens of this country required to carry National ID (with proof of
>citizenship required to get one).
>Allow workers who are here illegally to stay if they have a job with an
>employer
>That employer must withhold taxes and provide a basic medical insurance
>policy.-the employer is basically the workers sponsor at this point and
is
>reaponsible for him/her.
>Employees must purchase vehicle insurance.
>Worker receives a Worker-guest card that entitles them to basic
>(rudimentary) medical services under employers medical insurance policy.
>worker can buy supplemental healthcare which will be only good as long as
>his/her status is legimate.
>Worker can change jobs just like any American citizen.
>Worker-guest card is forfeit upon leaving job and new "ttransitional " card
>is issued - good for two weeks.
>Workers can only receive social services with proof of
>employment/worker-guest card or temporary "unexpired" transitional card.
>If card expires, they are considered illegal and are subject to immediate
>deportation and denial of all social services.
>Employers receive a $20,000 fine *per instance* if caught hiring illegal
>workers
>No more sanctuary cities. Law enforcement is *required* to randomly check
>national ID/worker cards
>Profiling allowed (I hate this, but it's necessary)
>If someone doesn't have valid National ID or workers card, they are detained
>until they can show proof. No proof, you go back to country of origin.
>Worker gets busted for serious misdemeanor.......goes home - can reapply
for
>worker permit within 1 year. Felony, goes to jail, then home.- never come
>back.
>Rescind the law that allows children born of non-citizens in this country
to
>be automatic citizens.
>
>
>
>>
>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
in
>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>> >
>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>> providing
>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>> >
>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by
the
>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>> >
>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>>> using.
>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
on
>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
of
>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>>> $29 billion.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
in
>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>
>>>
>>> 27 July 2005
>>>
>>>
>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>> Year…Do They Take American Express??
>>>
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>
>>> [Bryanna Bevens <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New Study:
>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year…Do They Take
>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>
>>> [Print This Article]
>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>
>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>>> in the U.S.
>>>
>>> Silly mortal…what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be–he should have used
>>> graphs and flow charts…you know, visual aids that provide an opportunity
>>> for interpretation.
>>>
>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP–whatever that’s supposed to be)
>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>
>>> Hmm…I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise…the
cost
>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>> prohibitive.
>>>
>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>
>>> “Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more. Spending
>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
the
>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion).”
>>>
>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>>> google warring?
>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
how
>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
it
>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in goods/services
>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
and
>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any other
>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and those
>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
than
>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
it
>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
not
>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my dudes/dudettes.
>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
that
>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't mind
>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>
>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my family/my
>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to stay
>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for themselves
>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my family's
>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of
my
>>> house bank account?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
We
>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>> >
>>>
>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
have
>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first hand.
>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
:)
>>>
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > -Jamie
>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>
>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>> wrote
>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think like
>>> you
>>> >>> is:
>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>> >>
>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate since
>>> you
>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>> >>
>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator,
>>> then
>>> >> hold the
>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care worker
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
the
>>> fed
>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
I'd
>>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>>> and see
>>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like region,
>>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained, cure/easing
>>> of
>>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital, etc....
>>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>>> the very
>>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>>> Illegals?
>>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>>> of you
>>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be
in
>>> line
>>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>>> programs. Don't
>>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes
and
>>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah. Necessary?
>>> At this
>>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train wreck
>>> for
>>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>>> point
>>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off going
>>> too
>>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>>> the best
>>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>>> have to
>>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>> >>
>>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>>> feel
>>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>>> health care
>>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has
got
>>> a real
>>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because entitlement
>>> becomes
>>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>>> necessarily
>>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with bribery
>>> like
>>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>>> and I'm
>>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>>> survive so
>>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>>> not see
>>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>> >>
>>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>>> >>> employer
>>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>>> end.
>>> >>> Even
>>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>>> >>> employee
>>> >>> top notch medical care.
>>> >>
>>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>>> bilked
>>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
is
>>> very
>>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>>> free
>>> >> loaders.
>>> >>
>>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>>> belive that
>>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can afford
>>> it..
>>> >>
>>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>>> from my
>>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>>> entry
>>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>>> that,
>>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories. Unfortunately
>>> we
>>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into
the
>>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>>> pay for
>>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not many
>>> >>> families
>>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>>> rising
>>> >>> fuel
>>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>>> days..
>>> >>
>>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>>> those
>>> >> numbers as an average.
>>> >>
>>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only
one
>>> >>> catstrophic
>>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>>> >>> horrible!!
>>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>>> from you
>>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>>> some
>>> >>> debilitating
>>> >>> disorder ????
>>> >>
>>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>>> super broke
>>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>>> money
>>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>>> considered a
>>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks,
but
>>> it's a
>>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>>> retirement or
>>> >> beyond.
>>> >>
>>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>>> percent
>>> >>> "supplement"
>>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>>> dignified
>>> >>> health
>>> >>> coverage.
>>> >>
>>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>>> (how
>>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>>> welfare or
>>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>>> >>
>>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>>> they can
>>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>>> now. Those
>>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>>> it away
>>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe gets
>>> screwed
>>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>>> health
>>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>>> can look
>>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>>> I've
>>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect upon.
>>> I'm not
>>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>>> doesn't work
>>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>>> got to
>>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because
so
>>> many
>>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>>> >>
>>> >> AA
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>>> the
>>> >>>> 'govt'
>>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
hold
>>> the
>>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>> worker
>>> >>>> because
>>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>>> the fed
>>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> AA
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>> wrote in message
>>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>>> those
>>> >>> who
>>> >>>>>> say
>>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
and
>>> yours
>>> >>>>>> then
>>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>>> even wost
>>> >>>>>> job.
>>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>>> hear
>>> >>>>>> someone
>>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients
is
>>> >>>>> because
>>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87086 is a reply to message #87017] |
Sat, 23 June 2007 17:01 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Nothing hard about this. It's basically defining status, making employers
who hire migrant labor pay for their insurance so it doesn't fall oun the
healthcare infrastructure, hiring enough people to enforce some simple laws
and applying enforcement unifromly. the employers will raise the prices of
the goods they produce to cover the costs of the healthcare and we will all
pay for it, inculding the migrant workers paying their fair share.
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467be825@linux...
>
> Now Guys..Really now.
> Do you realy think this goverment has the capacity and wherewithall to
> achieve
> said list of DJ's??
>
> Aren't you guys the ones who are always saying that the Gove can't run a
> national health care system? How can they effectivly pull off this off??
>
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
> who
>>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>>> welfare).
>>
>>Build "major" fence.
>>Hire an additional 50K personnell to enforce existing borders and another
>
>>100k to enforce immigration laws, checking on emloyyers who hire migrant
>
>>workers and doing whatever duties are necessary to enforce INS laws.
>>Citizens of this country required to carry National ID (with proof of
>>citizenship required to get one).
>>Allow workers who are here illegally to stay if they have a job with an
>
>>employer
>>That employer must withhold taxes and provide a basic medical insurance
>
>>policy.-the employer is basically the workers sponsor at this point and
> is
>>reaponsible for him/her.
>>Employees must purchase vehicle insurance.
>>Worker receives a Worker-guest card that entitles them to basic
>>(rudimentary) medical services under employers medical insurance policy.
>
>>worker can buy supplemental healthcare which will be only good as long as
>
>>his/her status is legimate.
>>Worker can change jobs just like any American citizen.
>>Worker-guest card is forfeit upon leaving job and new "ttransitional "
>>card
>
>>is issued - good for two weeks.
>>Workers can only receive social services with proof of
>>employment/worker-guest card or temporary "unexpired" transitional card.
>>If card expires, they are considered illegal and are subject to immediate
>
>>deportation and denial of all social services.
>>Employers receive a $20,000 fine *per instance* if caught hiring illegal
>
>>workers
>>No more sanctuary cities. Law enforcement is *required* to randomly check
>
>>national ID/worker cards
>>Profiling allowed (I hate this, but it's necessary)
>>If someone doesn't have valid National ID or workers card, they are
>>detained
>
>>until they can show proof. No proof, you go back to country of origin.
>>Worker gets busted for serious misdemeanor.......goes home - can reapply
> for
>>worker permit within 1 year. Felony, goes to jail, then home.- never come
>
>>back.
>>Rescind the law that allows children born of non-citizens in this country
> to
>>be automatic citizens.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
> in
>>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>>> >
>>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>>> providing
>>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>>> >
>>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>>> >
>>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by
> the
>>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>
>>>> using.
>>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>
>>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>
>>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>
>>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>
>>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
> on
>>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>
>>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>
>>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
> of
>>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>
>>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>
>>>> $29 billion.
>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
> in
>>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>
>>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>
>>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 27 July 2005
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>>> Year.Do They Take American Express??
>>>>
>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>>
>>>> [Bryanna Bevens
>>>> <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>
>>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
>>>> Study:
>
>>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year.Do They Take
>>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>>
>>>> [Print This Article]
>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>>
>>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>
>>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>
>>>> in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> Silly mortal.what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be-he should have
>>>> used
>
>>>> graphs and flow charts.you know, visual aids that provide an
>>>> opportunity
>
>>>> for interpretation.
>>>>
>>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP-whatever that's supposed to be)
>
>>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>
>>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm.I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise.the
> cost
>>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>>> prohibitive.
>>>>
>>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>>
>>>> "Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>
>>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
>>>> Spending
>
>>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>
>>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
> the
>>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion)."
>>>>
>>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>
>>>> google warring?
>>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>
>>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>
>>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>
>>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
> how
>>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
> it
>>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
>>>> goods/services
>
>>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>
>>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>
>>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
> and
>>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any
>>>> other
>
>>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and
>>>> those
>
>>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
> than
>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>
>>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>
>>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>
>>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>
>>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
> it
>>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
> not
>>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
>>>> dudes/dudettes.
>
>>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
> that
>>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't
>>>> mind
>
>>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>>
>>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my
>>>> family/my
>
>>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to
>>>> stay
>
>>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for
>>>> themselves
>
>>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>
>>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my
>>>> family's
>
>>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of
> my
>>>> house bank account?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
> We
>>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
> have
>>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>
>>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>
>>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first
>>>> hand.
>
>>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
> :)
>>>>
>>>> > Cheers,
>>>> > -Jamie
>>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>>> wrote
>
>>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think
>>>> like
>
>>>> you
>>>> >>> is:
>>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
>>>> since
>
>>>> you
>>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest
>>>> denominator,
>
>>>> then
>>>> >> hold the
>>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>> worker
>>>> >>> because
>>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
> the
>>>> fed
>>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
> I'd
>>>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>
>>>> and see
>>>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like
>>>> region,
>>>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
>>>> cure/easing
>
>>>> of
>>>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital,
>>>> etc....
>>>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>
>>>> the very
>>>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>>>> Illegals?
>>>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>
>>>> of you
>>>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be
> in
>>>> line
>>>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>>>> programs. Don't
>>>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes
> and
>>>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah.
>>>> Necessary?
>
>>>> At this
>>>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
>>>> wreck
>
>>>> for
>>>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>
>>>> point
>>>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off
>>>> going
>
>>>> too
>>>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>
>>>> the best
>>>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>
>>>> have to
>>>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>
>>>> feel
>>>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>
>>>> health care
>>>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has
> got
>>>> a real
>>>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because
>>>> entitlement
>
>>>> becomes
>>>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>
>>>> necessarily
>>>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with
>>>> bribery
>
>>>> like
>>>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>
>>>> and I'm
>>>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>>>> survive so
>>>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>
>>>> not see
>>>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>>>> >>> employer
>>>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>
>>>> end.
>>>> >>> Even
>>>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>>>> >>> employee
>>>> >>> top notch medical care.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>
>>>> bilked
>>>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
> is
>>>> very
>>>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>
>>>> free
>>>> >> loaders.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>>>> belive that
>>>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can
>>>> afford
>
>>>> it..
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>
>>>> from my
>>>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>
>>>> entry
>>>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>
>>>> that,
>>>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
>>>> Unfortunately
>
>>>> we
>>>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into
> the
>>>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>
>>>> pay for
>>>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not
>>>> many
>>>> >>> families
>>>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>
>>>> rising
>>>> >>> fuel
>>>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>
>>>> days..
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>>>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>
>>>> those
>>>> >> numbers as an average.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only
> one
>>>> >>> catstrophic
>>>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>>>> >>> horrible!!
>>>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>
>>>> from you
>>>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>
>>>> some
>>>> >>> debilitating
>>>> >>> disorder ????
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>
>>>> super broke
>>>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>
>>>> money
>>>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>>>> considered a
>>>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks,
> but
>>>> it's a
>>>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>>>> retirement or
>>>> >> beyond.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>
>>>> percent
>>>> >>> "supplement"
>>>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>>>> dignified
>>>> >>> health
>>>> >>> coverage.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>
>>>> (how
>>>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>
>>>> welfare or
>>>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>
>>>> they can
>>>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>
>>>> now. Those
>>>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>
>>>> it away
>>>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe
>>>> gets
>
>>>> screwed
>>>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>
>>>> health
>>>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>
>>>> can look
>>>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>
>>>> I've
>>>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect
>>>> upon.
>
>>>> I'm not
>>>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>>>> doesn't work
>>>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>
>>>> got to
>>>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because
> so
>>>> many
>>>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> AA
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>>>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> 'govt'
>>>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
> hold
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>> worker
>>>> >>>> because
>>>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>>>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>
>>>> the fed
>>>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> AA
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>
>>>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>
>>>> those
>>>> >>> who
>>>> >>>>>> say
>>>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
> and
>>>> yours
>>>> >>>>>> then
>>>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>
>>>> even wost
>>>> >>>>>> job.
>>>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>
>>>> hear
>>>> >>>>>> someone
>>>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients
> is
>>>> >>>>> because
>>>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87094 is a reply to message #87086] |
Sat, 23 June 2007 19:39 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Actually I think we ought to invite any who want citizenship and can
speak some English to take an IQ and an aptitude test. Any with an IQ
over 120 and a good aptitude score, if they have a clean legal record
and a record of steady employment, should be offered citizenship. The
rest should be refused citizenship and should be sent back. We can use
more able, intelligent people. Who says we should not pick the top
applicants just like a company does. That's how we can make our country
stronger.
Maybe we should offer Mexico to swap 1 of our dummies for 2 of their
smart ones. That seems like a darn good deal to me.
DJ wrote:
> Nothing hard about this. It's basically defining status, making employers
> who hire migrant labor pay for their insurance so it doesn't fall oun the
> healthcare infrastructure, hiring enough people to enforce some simple laws
> and applying enforcement unifromly. the employers will raise the prices of
> the goods they produce to cover the costs of the healthcare and we will all
> pay for it, inculding the migrant workers paying their fair share.
>
>
>
>
> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467be825@linux...
>> Now Guys..Really now.
>> Do you realy think this goverment has the capacity and wherewithall to
>> achieve
>> said list of DJ's??
>>
>> Aren't you guys the ones who are always saying that the Gove can't run a
>> national health care system? How can they effectivly pull off this off??
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>>>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
>> who
>>>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>>>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>>>> welfare).
>>> Build "major" fence.
>>> Hire an additional 50K personnell to enforce existing borders and another
>>> 100k to enforce immigration laws, checking on emloyyers who hire migrant
>>> workers and doing whatever duties are necessary to enforce INS laws.
>>> Citizens of this country required to carry National ID (with proof of
>>> citizenship required to get one).
>>> Allow workers who are here illegally to stay if they have a job with an
>>> employer
>>> That employer must withhold taxes and provide a basic medical insurance
>>> policy.-the employer is basically the workers sponsor at this point and
>> is
>>> reaponsible for him/her.
>>> Employees must purchase vehicle insurance.
>>> Worker receives a Worker-guest card that entitles them to basic
>>> (rudimentary) medical services under employers medical insurance policy.
>>> worker can buy supplemental healthcare which will be only good as long as
>>> his/her status is legimate.
>>> Worker can change jobs just like any American citizen.
>>> Worker-guest card is forfeit upon leaving job and new "ttransitional "
>>> card
>>> is issued - good for two weeks.
>>> Workers can only receive social services with proof of
>>> employment/worker-guest card or temporary "unexpired" transitional card.
>>> If card expires, they are considered illegal and are subject to immediate
>>> deportation and denial of all social services.
>>> Employers receive a $20,000 fine *per instance* if caught hiring illegal
>>> workers
>>> No more sanctuary cities. Law enforcement is *required* to randomly check
>>> national ID/worker cards
>>> Profiling allowed (I hate this, but it's necessary)
>>> If someone doesn't have valid National ID or workers card, they are
>>> detained
>>> until they can show proof. No proof, you go back to country of origin.
>>> Worker gets busted for serious misdemeanor.......goes home - can reapply
>> for
>>> worker permit within 1 year. Felony, goes to jail, then home.- never come
>>> back.
>>> Rescind the law that allows children born of non-citizens in this country
>> to
>>> be automatic citizens.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
>> in
>>>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>>>> providing
>>>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall, by
>> the
>>>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you are
>>>>> using.
>>>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>>>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it. I've
>>>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>>>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>>>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
>> on
>>>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>>>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when
>>>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
>> of
>>>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an
>>>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>>>>> $29 billion.
>>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
>> in
>>>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in
>>>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>>>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 27 July 2005
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>>>> Year.Do They Take American Express??
>>>>>
>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Bryanna Bevens
>>>>> <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>>>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
>>>>> Study:
>>>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year.Do They Take
>>>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>>>>> [Print This Article]
>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>>>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that we
>>>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>>>>> in the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> Silly mortal.what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be-he should have
>>>>> used
>>>>> graphs and flow charts.you know, visual aids that provide an
>>>>> opportunity
>>>>> for interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP-whatever that's supposed to be)
>>>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>>>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm.I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise.the
>> cost
>>>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>>>> prohibitive.
>>>>>
>>>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>>>
>>>>> "Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>>>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
>>>>> Spending
>>>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>>>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
>> the
>>>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion)."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point in
>>>>> google warring?
>>>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>>>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>>>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come to
>>>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
>> how
>>>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
>> it
>>>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
>>>>> goods/services
>>>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>>>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal low
>>>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
>> and
>>>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any
>>>>> other
>>>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and
>>>>> those
>>>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
>> than
>>>>> I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should all
>>>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>>>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to pay
>>>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money pit
>>>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
>> it
>>>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I am
>> not
>>>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
>>>>> dudes/dudettes.
>>>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
>> that
>>>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't
>>>>> mind
>>>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my
>>>>> family/my
>>>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to
>>>>> stay
>>>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for
>>>>> themselves
>>>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>>>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my
>>>>> family's
>>>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out of
>> my
>>>>> house bank account?
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
>> We
>>>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
>> have
>>>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the last
>>>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>>>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first
>>>>> hand.
>>>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
>> :)
>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>> > -Jamie
>>>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>>>
>>>>> AA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>>>> wrote
>>>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think
>>>>> like
>>>>> you
>>>>> >>> is:
>>>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
>>>>> since
>>>>> you
>>>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest
>>>>> denominator,
>>>>> then
>>>>> >> hold the
>>>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>>> worker
>>>>> >>> because
>>>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>> the
>>>>> fed
>>>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
>> I'd
>>>>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>>>>> and see
>>>>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like
>>>>> region,
>>>>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
>>>>> cure/easing
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital,
>>>>> etc....
>>>>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I think
>>>>> the very
>>>>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>>>>> Illegals?
>>>>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're tired
>>>>> of you
>>>>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to be
>> in
>>>>> line
>>>>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>>>>> programs. Don't
>>>>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes
>> and
>>>>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah.
>>>>> Necessary?
>>>>> At this
>>>>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
>>>>> wreck
>>>>> for
>>>>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>>>>> point
>>>>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off
>>>>> going
>>>>> too
>>>>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I take
>>>>> the best
>>>>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should I
>>>>> have to
>>>>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>>>>> feel
>>>>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>>>>> health care
>>>>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has
>> got
>>>>> a real
>>>>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because
>>>>> entitlement
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>>>>> necessarily
>>>>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with
>>>>> bribery
>>>>> like
>>>>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>>>>> and I'm
>>>>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>>>>> survive so
>>>>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>>>>> not see
>>>>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill for
>>>>> >>> employer
>>>>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>>>>> end.
>>>>> >>> Even
>>>>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give their
>>>>> >>> employee
>>>>> >>> top notch medical care.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>>>>> bilked
>>>>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin? That
>> is
>>>>> very
>>>>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients and
>>>>> free
>>>>> >> loaders.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>>>>> belive that
>>>>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can
>>>>> afford
>>>>> it..
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>>>>> from my
>>>>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>>>>> entry
>>>>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state to
>>>>> that,
>>>>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
>>>>> Unfortunately
>>>>> we
>>>>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into
>> the
>>>>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who can
>>>>> pay for
>>>>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not
>>>>> many
>>>>> >>> families
>>>>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>>>>> rising
>>>>> >>> fuel
>>>>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant these
>>>>> days..
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care 'is'
>>>>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came to
>>>>> those
>>>>> >> numbers as an average.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only
>> one
>>>>> >>> catstrophic
>>>>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>>>>> >>> horrible!!
>>>>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>>>>> from you
>>>>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one has
>>>>> some
>>>>> >>> debilitating
>>>>> >>> disorder ????
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich or
>>>>> super broke
>>>>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get your
>>>>> money
>>>>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>>>>> considered a
>>>>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks,
>> but
>>>>> it's a
>>>>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>>>>> retirement or
>>>>> >> beyond.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>>>>> percent
>>>>> >>> "supplement"
>>>>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>>>>> dignified
>>>>> >>> health
>>>>> >>> coverage.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>>>>> (how
>>>>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live on
>>>>> welfare or
>>>>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>>>>> they can
>>>>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we are
>>>>> now. Those
>>>>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will take
>>>>> it away
>>>>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe
>>>>> gets
>>>>> screwed
>>>>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through the
>>>>> health
>>>>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any fool
>>>>> can look
>>>>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>>>>> I've
>>>>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect
>>>>> upon.
>>>>> I'm not
>>>>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>>>>> doesn't work
>>>>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought. We've
>>>>> got to
>>>>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because
>> so
>>>>> many
>>>>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> AA
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>>>>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience that
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>> 'govt'
>>>>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
>> hold
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into the
>>>>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>>> worker
>>>>> >>>> because
>>>>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>>>>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>>>>> the fed
>>>>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> AA
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>>>>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>>>>> those
>>>>> >>> who
>>>>> >>>>>> say
>>>>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams you
>> and
>>>>> yours
>>>>> >>>>>> then
>>>>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do a
>>>>> even wost
>>>>> >>>>>> job.
>>>>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I can
>>>>> hear
>>>>> >>>>>> someone
>>>>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients
>> is
>>>>> >>>>> because
>>>>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87116 is a reply to message #87097] |
Sun, 24 June 2007 07:29 |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi jeff,
Sadly I think they only wanted it to read..
"Give me your European tired, your European poor,
Your European huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming European shore...."
Chris
Jeff Hoover wrote:
> Bill L wrote:
>> Actually I think we ought to invite any who want citizenship and can
>> speak some English to take an IQ and an aptitude test. Any with an IQ
>> over 120 and a good aptitude score, if they have a clean legal record
>> and a record of steady employment, should be offered citizenship. The
>> rest should be refused citizenship and should be sent back. We can
>> use more able, intelligent people. Who says we should not pick the
>> top applicants just like a company does. That's how we can make our
>> country stronger.
>
> "Give me your tired, your poor,
> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...."
>
> Nah, that was so 20th century...
>
>
> ;-)
>
> Jeff
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK
chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
(859) 635-5762
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87127 is a reply to message #87116] |
Sun, 24 June 2007 14:52 |
Lamont[6]
Messages: 1
Registered: June 2007
|
Junior Member |
|
|
That's right. They did not mean Africans, asians or even the natives of this
land..Sad really sad..
Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>Hi jeff,
>Sadly I think they only wanted it to read..
>
>"Give me your European tired, your European poor,
>Your European huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
>The wretched refuse of your teeming European shore...."
>
>Chris
>
>
>Jeff Hoover wrote:
>> Bill L wrote:
>>> Actually I think we ought to invite any who want citizenship and can
>>> speak some English to take an IQ and an aptitude test. Any with an IQ
>>> over 120 and a good aptitude score, if they have a clean legal record
>>> and a record of steady employment, should be offered citizenship. The
>>> rest should be refused citizenship and should be sent back. We can
>>> use more able, intelligent people. Who says we should not pick the
>>> top applicants just like a company does. That's how we can make our
>>> country stronger.
>>
>> "Give me your tired, your poor,
>> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
>> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...."
>>
>> Nah, that was so 20th century...
>>
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> Jeff
>
>--
>Chris Ludwig
>ADK
>chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>(859) 635-5762
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87136 is a reply to message #87094] |
Sun, 24 June 2007 18:27 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The IQ of the 'average' american is 100. Significant problems with your plan
:-)
Chuck
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Actually I think we ought to invite any who want citizenship and can
>speak some English to take an IQ and an aptitude test. Any with an IQ
>over 120 and a good aptitude score, if they have a clean legal record
>and a record of steady employment, should be offered citizenship. The
>rest should be refused citizenship and should be sent back. We can use
>more able, intelligent people. Who says we should not pick the top
>applicants just like a company does. That's how we can make our country
>stronger.
>
>Maybe we should offer Mexico to swap 1 of our dummies for 2 of their
>smart ones. That seems like a darn good deal to me.
>
>DJ wrote:
>> Nothing hard about this. It's basically defining status, making employers
>> who hire migrant labor pay for their insurance so it doesn't fall oun
the
>> healthcare infrastructure, hiring enough people to enforce some simple
laws
>> and applying enforcement unifromly. the employers will raise the prices
of
>> the goods they produce to cover the costs of the healthcare and we will
all
>> pay for it, inculding the migrant workers paying their fair share.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:467be825@linux...
>>> Now Guys..Really now.
>>> Do you realy think this goverment has the capacity and wherewithall to
>>> achieve
>>> said list of DJ's??
>>>
>>> Aren't you guys the ones who are always saying that the Gove can't run
a
>>> national health care system? How can they effectivly pull off this off??
>>>
>>>
>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:467b3fb6@linux...
>>>>> Deportation is not necessary. If we spent $100 mill putting Americans
>>> who
>>>>> hire illegals in jail, in short order there would be no jobs and the
>>>>> illegals would have to go home (unless of course we put them all on
>>>>> welfare).
>>>> Build "major" fence.
>>>> Hire an additional 50K personnell to enforce existing borders and another
>>>> 100k to enforce immigration laws, checking on emloyyers who hire migrant
>>>> workers and doing whatever duties are necessary to enforce INS laws.
>>>> Citizens of this country required to carry National ID (with proof of
>>>> citizenship required to get one).
>>>> Allow workers who are here illegally to stay if they have a job with
an
>>>> employer
>>>> That employer must withhold taxes and provide a basic medical insurance
>>>> policy.-the employer is basically the workers sponsor at this point
and
>>> is
>>>> reaponsible for him/her.
>>>> Employees must purchase vehicle insurance.
>>>> Worker receives a Worker-guest card that entitles them to basic
>>>> (rudimentary) medical services under employers medical insurance policy.
>>>> worker can buy supplemental healthcare which will be only good as long
as
>>>> his/her status is legimate.
>>>> Worker can change jobs just like any American citizen.
>>>> Worker-guest card is forfeit upon leaving job and new "ttransitional
"
>>>> card
>>>> is issued - good for two weeks.
>>>> Workers can only receive social services with proof of
>>>> employment/worker-guest card or temporary "unexpired" transitional card.
>>>> If card expires, they are considered illegal and are subject to immediate
>>>> deportation and denial of all social services.
>>>> Employers receive a $20,000 fine *per instance* if caught hiring illegal
>>>> workers
>>>> No more sanctuary cities. Law enforcement is *required* to randomly
check
>>>> national ID/worker cards
>>>> Profiling allowed (I hate this, but it's necessary)
>>>> If someone doesn't have valid National ID or workers card, they are
>>>> detained
>>>> until they can show proof. No proof, you go back to country of origin.
>>>> Worker gets busted for serious misdemeanor.......goes home - can reapply
>>> for
>>>> worker permit within 1 year. Felony, goes to jail, then home.- never
come
>>>> back.
>>>> Rescind the law that allows children born of non-citizens in this country
>>> to
>>>> be automatic citizens.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com <mailto:Meta@Dimensional.com>> wrote
>>> in
>>>>>> message news:467591fd@linux...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Aaron, do you have any sources of data for the actual cost of
>>>>>> providing
>>>>>> > health care to illegal aliens? What numbers are you using?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Do you know the amount of taxes paid by illegal aliens?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Do you know the amount of money saved in the economy, overall,
by
>>> the
>>>>>> > low wages they are paid?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'm just curious. It would be interesting to know any stats you
are
>>>>>> using.
>>>>>> This'll get you started. And they're old numbers for the most part,
>>>>>> could be an improvement in the situation but I seriously doubt it.
I've
>>>>>> seen growth in my area for sure and I'd expect the same for this region
>>>>>> of states all the way to Cali.
>>>>>> This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal
>>>>>> immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused
>>> on
>>>>>> the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments,
>>>>>> but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that,
when
>>>>>> all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered,
>>>>>> illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level
>>> of
>>>>>> more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was
an
>>>>>> amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly
>>>>>> $29 billion.
>>>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
>>>>>> Washington Post found about the same thing
>>>>>> "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion
>>> in
>>>>>> costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion
in
>>>>>> taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
>>>>>> illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug 25.html
>>>>>> Here's a 2004 finding
>>>>>> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/ 19_56_5812_5_04.txt
>>>>>> SBI ain't cuttin it in this 2006 study.
>>>>>> http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
>>>>>> Deportation doesn't seem such a great idea
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 27 July 2005
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New Study: Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A
>>>>>> Year.Do They Take American Express??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Bryanna Bevens
>>>>>> <http://blog.vdare.com/archives/author/bryanna-bevens/>]
>>>>>> @ 11:24 am [Email author <mailto:bbevens@vdareedit.com?subject=New
>>>>>> Study:
>>>>>> Deporting Illegal Aliens Will Cost $41 Billion A Year.Do They Take
>>>>>> American Express??>] [Email This Article]
>>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/email/>
>>>>>> [Print This Article]
>>>>>> < http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/print/>
>>>>>> Recently, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich suggested that
we
>>>>>> round up and deport the millions of illegal aliens who currently reside
>>>>>> in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Silly mortal.what on earth was he thinking? Simple solutions to
>>>>>> complicated problems just confuse the powers that be-he should have
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> graphs and flow charts.you know, visual aids that provide an
>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>> for interpretation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To discourage the idea, the Center for American Progress
>>>>>> <http://www.americanprogress.org/>(CAP-whatever that's supposed to
be)
>>>>>> prepared a sort of makeshift cost/benefit analysis
>>>>>> < http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF& b=913099>for
>>>>>> deporting millions of illegal aliens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm.I wonder what they determined?? Surprise, surprise, surprise.the
>>> cost
>>>>>> is astronomical. In fact, according to CAP, the solution is cost
>>>>>> prohibitive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [extracted from the report linked below]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Using publicly available data, we estimate the costs of a mass
>>>>>> deportation effort to be at least $206 billion over five years ($41.2
>>>>>> billion annually), and could be as high as $230 billion or more.
>>>>>> Spending
>>>>>> $41.2 billion annually would exceed the entire budget of the Department
>>>>>> of Homeland Security for FY 2006 ($34.2 billion) and more than double
>>> the
>>>>>> annual cost of military operations in Afghanistan ($16.8 billion)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2005/07/27/new-study-deportin g-illegal-aliens-will-cost-41-billion-a-year-do-they-take-am erican-express/
>>>>>> I could go on and you could go on, but really... what's the point
in
>>>>>> google warring?
>>>>>> Which leads me to believe if life here gets tougher for the illegals,
>>>>>> they'll pack up and go home or at least a portion of them will, without
>>>>>> blasting more tax payer money at the problem. I hate that it's come
to
>>>>>> trying to close off our borders but how much money down the tube and
>>> how
>>>>>> many terrorist bombs is it really going to take for that to sink in?
>>>>>> Will there be a gaping hole in the low end jobs? I'd expect it. Will
>>> it
>>>>>> blow apart our economy. I think we'll certainly feel it in
>>>>>> goods/services
>>>>>> but the big question lies in will the spending in the medical expenses
>>>>>> and free rides in the country outweigh it, andd how does our legal
low
>>>>>> end applicants play into that? How many of our legal jobless will
>>>>>> suddenly find they CAN get a job to help feed themselves and family,
>>> and
>>>>>> better their circumstances? This isn't about Arabs, Mexicans or any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> cultures. It's about responsibility to our house and ourselves and
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> around us. Perhaps others just see responsibility in a different way
>>> than
>>>>>> I do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now the crux of this conversation lies here. Do you think we should
all
>>>>>> pony up for free health care or not? The rest is semantics, numbers
>>>>>> playing and guess work and I say this to anyone that wants to mandate
>>>>>> more of my paycheck out of me and my family's hands: If you want to
pay
>>>>>> for it, go right ahead. Vote yourself into a nice expensive money
pit
>>>>>> volunteer 'program'. Just don't get the idea that I want to pay for
>>> it
>>>>>> too, or that I won't fight it the whole way. Don't mistake that I
am
>>> not
>>>>>> a compassionate man, or have heart or ability to help my
>>>>>> dudes/dudettes.
>>>>>> I think years of taking a hand here really ought to say plenty about
>>> that
>>>>>> spirit, and things not generally public knowledge about me. I don't
>>>>>> mind
>>>>>> giving. But I want to give smart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I won't do is hand out to make ppl dependant so that I/my
>>>>>> family/my
>>>>>> friends/my community have to continue the payments and they have to
>>>>>> stay
>>>>>> enslaved to a 'care' system that doesn't teach them to do for
>>>>>> themselves
>>>>>> if they are able. If they are not, that needs to be handled differently
>>>>>> per case. And, if they've snuck into my house and are eating my
>>>>>> family's
>>>>>> food why on God's green earth would I hand them something else out
of
>>> my
>>>>>> house bank account?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Ideally we should start by designing a working system for citizens.
>>> We
>>>>>> > can and should address the immigration issue separately.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My point is that it is not a separate issue, but linked. We may just
>>> have
>>>>>> to disagree about that one. I've been in and out of hospitals the
last
>>>>>> year with both a sick 5 yr old boy and a girlfriend post brain tumor.
>>>>>> She's a tough survivor. I'm telling you what I'm seeing bro, first
>>>>>> hand.
>>>>>> I could relate some horror stories.
>>>>>> Sorry for the delayed response.... Father's Day, priorities and such
>>> :)
>>>>>> > Cheers,
>>>>>> > -Jamie
>>>>>> > www.JamieKrutz.com <http://www.jamiekrutz.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers back atcha'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Aaron Allen wrote:
>>>>>> >> "LaMOnt " <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>> in message news:46755eae$1@linux...
>>>>>> >>> Aaron please read my last post. My question to those who think
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> >>> is:
>>>>>> >>> "Then, what is the cure"??
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I did read you last post, which prompted mine. Let me elaborate
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> >> don't see what I meant.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> the 'govt' way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest
>>>>>> denominator,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> >> hold the
>>>>>> >>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into
the
>>>>>> >>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>>>> worker
>>>>>> >>> because
>>>>>> >>> of govt mandates.
>>>>>> >>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we need
>>> the
>>>>>> fed
>>>>>> >>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The cure. That's not easy, nor is it going to be fast or smooth.
>>> I'd
>>>>>> >> approach it as a layered answer, like almost all problems in life,
>>>>>> and see
>>>>>> >> what works. What works will depend on so many variables, like
>>>>>> region,
>>>>>> >> patient, nature of illness, how the illness was obtained,
>>>>>> cure/easing
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> symptoms, procedures involved, doctors, insurance, hospital,
>>>>>> etc....
>>>>>> >> Calculating for those variables will be a mountain, however I
think
>>>>>> the very
>>>>>> >> first thing we have to do is stop the leeching and free riders.
>>>>>> Illegals?
>>>>>> >> Sorry, you will not be admitted to the hospital because we're
tired
>>>>>> of you
>>>>>> >> sucking the life out of our economy. Welfare? You're likely to
be
>>> in
>>>>>> line
>>>>>> >> behind the guys that have prepaid through insurance or other
>>>>>> programs. Don't
>>>>>> >> like it? Get legal, get registered, get a job, start paying taxes
>>> and
>>>>>> >> insurance like the legal working population. Harsh? Yeah.
>>>>>> Necessary?
>>>>>> At this
>>>>>> >> point, yeah - think it is because where we're headed is a train
>>>>>> wreck
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> >> everyone and I can see the wheels coming off as we speak. At this
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> >> there is no gentle answer, there has been too much ripping off
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> too
>>>>>> >> many ways to fix it nicely. I pay taxes, I pay insurance and I
take
>>>>>> the best
>>>>>> >> care of my self as I possibly can. So, explain to me why should
I
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> >> buy healthcare for someone who doesn't?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And that is 'exactly' the problem with entitlement. Too many people
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>> >> entitled to sit on their asses and collect welfare and debt free
>>>>>> health care
>>>>>> >> as it is on the backs of those that work for a living. Gov't has
>>> got
>>>>>> a real
>>>>>> >> historical problem with handling that particular because
>>>>>> entitlement
>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>> >> dependant voters for party lines, particularly Democrats but not
>>>>>> necessarily
>>>>>> >> always. Corruption is corruption. I have a huge problem with
>>>>>> bribery
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> >> that. I've seen it in business practices and I've seen it in gov't
>>>>>> and I'm
>>>>>> >> sick of it. *Here, let me help you* becomes *now you need me to
>>>>>> survive so
>>>>>> >> you better do what I say or I'll cut you off*. You can't seriously
>>>>>> not see
>>>>>> >> that. Jesus saw it. Teach a man to fish.. ringing any bells?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> If we are waiting on big business to continue to foot the bill
for
>>>>>> >>> employer
>>>>>> >>> pid medical insurance, well, thoes days are coming to and drastic
>>>>>> end.
>>>>>> >>> Even
>>>>>> >>> with the employers like GM are not going to continue to give
their
>>>>>> >>> employee
>>>>>> >>> top notch medical care.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Nope, they're not going to continue it. Everyone is tired of being
>>>>>> bilked
>>>>>> >> for being responsible by those that aren't. The $100 aspirin?
That
>>> is
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> >> very likely to have come from greasy suit happy lawyers/clients
and
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> >> loaders.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> This is a cultural issure. Tehre are those in this country who
>>>>>> belive that
>>>>>> >>> great health care is not for all , but only to those who can
>>>>>> afford
>>>>>> it..
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There are those that believe it should be given scot free to them
>>>>>> from my
>>>>>> >> hard work. Your point? This isn't cultural unless you count illegal
>>>>>> entry
>>>>>> >> into the country and laziness as a culture. Add welfare state
to
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> >> though it's not a 100% as are not the other catagories.
>>>>>> Unfortunately
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> >> don't have the resources to successfully divide these groups into
>>> the
>>>>>> >> trying/not trying sub groups with exception to the laziness group.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> Now: other than the top 3 percent earners in this country, who
can
>>>>>> pay for
>>>>>> >>> a decent medical insurance plan (not top notched) today??? Not
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> >>> families
>>>>>> >>> can afford on average $600-1000 per month for health care..With
>>>>>> rising
>>>>>> >>> fuel
>>>>>> >>> cost, food, utilities...it's just not in the budget for mant
these
>>>>>> days..
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Where did those figures arive from? I'm not saying health care
'is'
>>>>>> >> affordable, but I would like to get some idea of how you came
to
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> >> numbers as an average.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> And, if you are one of fortunate millionairs, well, you are only
>>> one
>>>>>> >>> catstrophic
>>>>>> >>> illness away from seeing all of your fortune sucked away...That's
>>>>>> >>> horrible!!
>>>>>> >>> to work hard to acheive financial freedom, only to have it sucked
>>>>>> from you
>>>>>> >>> because you "aford it"... What happens when another loved one
has
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> >>> debilitating
>>>>>> >>> disorder ????
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Millionaire or not, we all face this divide. Being super rich
or
>>>>>> super broke
>>>>>> >> makes no difference here. At current system/rates, they'll get
your
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> >> for any serious long term illness either way. And old age is
>>>>>> considered a
>>>>>> >> long term illness these days, curable only by death. That sucks,
>>> but
>>>>>> it's a
>>>>>> >> reality we all better prepare for in the event we live into
>>>>>> retirement or
>>>>>> >> beyond.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> The goverment system won't be great, but if packaged as a 60-70
>>>>>> percent
>>>>>> >>> "supplement"
>>>>>> >>> to your employer or self paid medical plan, then all can have
>>>>>> dignified
>>>>>> >>> health
>>>>>> >>> coverage.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And who pays the other 30-40 percent on those that are here illegal
>>>>>> (how
>>>>>> >> would you collect on an illegal _anyway_ with the feds?), live
on
>>>>>> welfare or
>>>>>> >> don't have insurance/money?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Our employers, reflected back to the cost of their goods and what
>>>>>> they can
>>>>>> >> pay us for producing them. That's right.. right back where we
are
>>>>>> now. Those
>>>>>> >> that have will not have for long because those that don't will
take
>>>>>> it away
>>>>>> >> through gov't mandate and the law of economics. The average Joe
>>>>>> gets
>>>>>> screwed
>>>>>> >> again. We'll pay for the poor through taxes, then again through
the
>>>>>> health
>>>>>> >> care overages we'll have to provide post gov't supplement. Any
fool
>>>>>> can look
>>>>>> >> at social security (hah, what a misnomer) and see what will happen.
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> >> been paying my life on a fund that I'm likely to never collect
>>>>>> upon.
>>>>>> I'm not
>>>>>> >> willing to add another to that list. Entitlement is crap and it
>>>>>> doesn't work
>>>>>> >> for any length of time before becoming corruption.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Sorry man, I don't see this working. But it's a nice thought.
We've
>>>>>> got to
>>>>>> >> start dealing with our border and overpopulation problems because
>>> so
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> >> things are a result of this root issue.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> AA
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude
>>>>>> <mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>> Exactly Deej. I can tell you right now first hand experience
that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>> 'govt'
>>>>>> >>>> way is to beat down the vendor to the lowest denominator, then
>>> hold
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>> payment as long as you possibly can. Let's not even get into
the
>>>>>> >>>> 'entitlement' problems or running away any decent health care
>>>>>> worker
>>>>>> >>>> because
>>>>>> >>>> of govt mandates.
>>>>>> >>>> Does the current health system need work? Absolutely. Do we
need
>>>>>> the fed
>>>>>> >>>> gov't doing it? NO.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> AA
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com <http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>>
>>>>>> wrote in message news:467556c0$1@linux...
>>>>>> >>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net <mailto:jjdpro@ameritech.net>>
>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>> >>>>> news:4674c045$1@linux...
>>>>>> >>>>>> The reason for the new film SICKO.. I really don't under stand
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> >>> who
>>>>>> >>>>>> say
>>>>>> >>>>>> they don;t want a national health care system.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> It's not until the current medical/Insurance system reams
you
>>> and
>>>>>> yours
>>>>>> >>>>>> then
>>>>>> >>>>>> do you 'see why it's needed'. But knoowwww The Gove will do
a
>>>>>> even wost
>>>>>> >>>>>> job.
>>>>>> >>>>>> That Bull-Shit!! At least, the bill will get paid.. Ok, I
can
>>>>>> hear
>>>>>> >>>>>> someone
>>>>>> >>>>>> saying by who??
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> The reason that these doctors are not taking Medicare patients
>>> is
>>>>>> >>>>> because
>>>>>> >>>>> the government runs it in such a wonderful way.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: This is how FU'ed the US healthcare system is [message #87146 is a reply to message #87127] |
Sun, 24 June 2007 20:21 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
No, sadly they probably meant if you come here learn the language, give the
same share of taxation we all have to and add something positive to the
society and you've missed the point.
Seriously, I care not who comes from where as long as they offer something
to make the country greater for their families, themselves and those already
here. When I have freinds that pull their kids out of certain schools
because they received honors by _default_ of actually speaking English,
Houston we gotta big fat problem. you guys may not be geographically in a
place to have this happening in your town, but it's coming soon to ya at
this rate if we don't get a handle on it.
AA
"Lamont" <jjd@aol.com> wrote in message news:467ee788$1@linux...
>
> That's right. They did not mean Africans, asians or even the natives of
> this
> land..Sad really sad..
>
>
>
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>Hi jeff,
>>Sadly I think they only wanted it to read..
>>
>>"Give me your European tired, your European poor,
>>Your European huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
>>The wretched refuse of your teeming European shore...."
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>Jeff Hoover wrote:
>>> Bill L wrote:
>>>> Actually I think we ought to invite any who want citizenship and can
>
>>>> speak some English to take an IQ and an aptitude test. Any with an IQ
>
>>>> over 120 and a good aptitude score, if they have a clean legal record
>
>>>> and a record of steady employment, should be offered citizenship. The
>
>>>> rest should be refused citizenship and should be sent back. We can
>>>> use more able, intelligent people. Who says we should not pick the
>>>> top applicants just like a company does. That's how we can make our
>
>>>> country stronger.
>>>
>>> "Give me your tired, your poor,
>>> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
>>> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...."
>>>
>>> Nah, that was so 20th century...
>>>
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>>--
>>Chris Ludwig
>>ADK
>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>>www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>>(859) 635-5762
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Dec 21 02:04:02 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.12293 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
