Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » I need 2 more db...
| I need 2 more db... [message #86939] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 19:15  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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...RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
samples, but really, not too many!
IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
like that you think might get me where I need to go?
Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86940 is a reply to message #86939] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 21:01  |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
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Senior Member |
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You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" your
limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape sat........if you
don't, you will die
You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, didn't
you?
<evil grin>
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4679df5c$1@linux...
>
> ..RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
>
> In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
> often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
> bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
> without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
> unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
> a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
> level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
> example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
> sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
> SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
> a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
> samples, but really, not too many!
> IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
>
> So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
> at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
> a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
> detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
> maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
> lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
> things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
>
> Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
> slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
> EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
> indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
> try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
> can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
> like that you think might get me where I need to go?
>
>
> Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86941 is a reply to message #86940] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 21:36 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" your
>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape sat........if
you
>don't, you will die
>
>You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, didn't
>you?
>
><evil grin>
I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno if that's going to
get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about mastering houses
using convertors like Lavry Gold's & Prism's - convertors that
cost like $15k - convertors that won't distort, no matter what
you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like christmas
trees. One place apparently has rack covers over their
convertors so the clients can't see them fire up & start
panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly wrong lol.
If that's what the latest trick is, then ain't no way I can get
there; not at that price point... but I suspect I might be able
to get a little bit closer - I think I might be missing an
analog link in the back-end chain.
Maybe two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'
frequency range response is off the map, so I don't think I'd
lose any fidelity... Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus
the harmonics & big iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors
would hit it hard & clamp it down.... anyone ever try this
method?
Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86942 is a reply to message #86941] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 21:42 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
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Senior Member |
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You can boost the gain a couple of dB and then start driving it against the
tape sat. This acts a bit like a compressor. It *should* affect RMS levels.
Might be worth a try. I'm doing some digital recabling right now (things
have gotten so insane here that I've got myself a Frontier Apache on loan to
try to suss some routing flexibility issues). I've also got company coming
in on Friday but I'll pull up a mix when I get a chance and bounce against a
bus compressor, then I'll insert the 5042 and give it a little push and see
what it does to RMS levels. If you want me to do this to one of your mixes,
post a clip somewhere of your bounce where I can grab it and I'll import it
into Cubase and smack it with the Portaco and report back to you.
;o)
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467a0042$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" your
>>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape sat........if
> you
>>don't, you will die
>>
>>You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, didn't
>
>>you?
>>
>><evil grin>
>
> I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno if that's going to
> get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about mastering houses
> using convertors like Lavry Gold's & Prism's - convertors that
> cost like $15k - convertors that won't distort, no matter what
> you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like christmas
> trees. One place apparently has rack covers over their
> convertors so the clients can't see them fire up & start
> panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly wrong lol.
>
> If that's what the latest trick is, then ain't no way I can get
> there; not at that price point... but I suspect I might be able
> to get a little bit closer - I think I might be missing an
> analog link in the back-end chain.
>
> Maybe two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'
> frequency range response is off the map, so I don't think I'd
> lose any fidelity... Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus
> the harmonics & big iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors
> would hit it hard & clamp it down.... anyone ever try this
> method?
>
> Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86943 is a reply to message #86941] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 22:05 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Would it be too obvious a question to ask if you've tried routing it through
the Paris mix engine and smacking the bus?
AA
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467a0042$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" your
>>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape sat........if
> you
>>don't, you will die
>>
>>You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, didn't
>
>>you?
>>
>><evil grin>
>
> I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno if that's going to
> get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about mastering houses
> using convertors like Lavry Gold's & Prism's - convertors that
> cost like $15k - convertors that won't distort, no matter what
> you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like christmas
> trees. One place apparently has rack covers over their
> convertors so the clients can't see them fire up & start
> panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly wrong lol.
>
> If that's what the latest trick is, then ain't no way I can get
> there; not at that price point... but I suspect I might be able
> to get a little bit closer - I think I might be missing an
> analog link in the back-end chain.
>
> Maybe two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'
> frequency range response is off the map, so I don't think I'd
> lose any fidelity... Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus
> the harmonics & big iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors
> would hit it hard & clamp it down.... anyone ever try this
> method?
>
> Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86944 is a reply to message #86943] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 22:31 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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Nope, haven't tried that - truth be told, I thought about it,
but I know I'd lose some fidelity, and I'm trying to avoid that.
It's kinda like I already went through that with the summing
experiments, you know? IOW, if I try it, I already know what to
expect... fatter/thicker, but with some high-end veiling.
Neil
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Would it be too obvious a question to ask if you've tried routing it through
>the Paris mix engine and smacking the bus?
>
>AA
>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467a0042$1@linux...
>>
>> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" your
>>>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape sat........if
>> you
>>>don't, you will die
>>>
>>>You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, didn't
>>
>>>you?
>>>
>>><evil grin>
>>
>> I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno if that's going to
>> get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about mastering houses
>> using convertors like Lavry Gold's & Prism's - convertors that
>> cost like $15k - convertors that won't distort, no matter what
>> you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like christmas
>> trees. One place apparently has rack covers over their
>> convertors so the clients can't see them fire up & start
>> panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly wrong lol.
>>
>> If that's what the latest trick is, then ain't no way I can get
>> there; not at that price point... but I suspect I might be able
>> to get a little bit closer - I think I might be missing an
>> analog link in the back-end chain.
>>
>> Maybe two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'
>> frequency range response is off the map, so I don't think I'd
>> lose any fidelity... Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus
>> the harmonics & big iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors
>> would hit it hard & clamp it down.... anyone ever try this
>> method?
>>
>> Neil
>
>
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86945 is a reply to message #86943] |
Wed, 20 June 2007 22:34 |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil,
I like much of what you're doing. At your level you should let the pros =
in the
mastering world take your stuff to the next level. Try what Aaron said =
and/or take it to=20
a mastering engineer you trust. That's their gig.
Last session I attended the guy used all analog. I believe it was a =
Millenia Labs comp=20
for gain staging only to another Millenia Labs eq for minor tweaks to a =
Massive Passive=20
for other minor tweaks into the Waves L2. There's a few bucks in that =
signal chain and=20
this was only a jazz/rock CD.
Let the guys who do that stuff do it for you/client. Better for =
everyone to get
someone else's ears on the project at that point.
Just my latest take,
Tom
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote in message =
news:467a08ac$1@linux...
Would it be too obvious a question to ask if you've tried routing it =
through=20
the Paris mix engine and smacking the bus?
AA
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:467a0042$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your master bus "after" =
your
>>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra 3dB and tape =
sat........if
> you
>>don't, you will die
>>
>>You knew deep down inside that you would be getting one of these, =
didn't
>
>>you?
>>
>><evil grin>
>
> I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno if that's going to
> get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about mastering houses
> using convertors like Lavry Gold's & Prism's - convertors that
> cost like $15k - convertors that won't distort, no matter what
> you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like christmas
> trees. One place apparently has rack covers over their
> convertors so the clients can't see them fire up & start
> panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly wrong lol.
>
> If that's what the latest trick is, then ain't no way I can get
> there; not at that price point... but I suspect I might be able
> to get a little bit closer - I think I might be missing an
> analog link in the back-end chain.
>
> Maybe two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'
> frequency range response is off the map, so I don't think I'd
> lose any fidelity... Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus
> the harmonics & big iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors
> would hit it hard & clamp it down.... anyone ever try this
> method?
>
> Neil=20
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I like much of what you're doing. =
At your=20
level you should let the pros in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>mastering world take your =
stuff to the=20
next level. <FONT size=3D+0>Try what Aaron said and/or take =
it to=20
</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D+0>a =
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D+0>mastering engineer you =
trust. =20
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That's their =
gig.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Last session I attended the guy used =
all=20
analog. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe it was =
a Millenia=20
Labs comp </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for gain staging only </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>to another Millenia Labs eq for minor tweaks to a Massive =
Passive=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for other minor </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>tweaks into the Waves L2. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>There's a=20
few bucks in that signal chain and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>this was only a jazz/rock=20
CD.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let the guys who do that stuff do it =
for=20
you/client. Better for everyone to get</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>someone else's ears on the project at =
that=20
point.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just my latest take,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Aaron Allen" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:know-spam@not_here.dude">know-spam@not_here.dude</A>> =
wrote in=20
message <A=20
href=3D"news:467a08ac$1@linux">news:467a08ac$1@linux</A>...</DIV>Would =
it be too=20
obvious a question to ask if you've tried routing it through <BR>the =
Paris mix=20
engine and smacking the bus?<BR><BR>AA<BR><BR><BR>"Neil" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:OIUOIU@OIU.com">OIUOIU@OIU.com</A>> wrote in message =
<A=20
=
href=3D"news:467a0042$1@linux">news:467a0042$1@linux</A>...<BR>><BR>&g=
t; "DJ"=20
<<A =
href=3D"http://www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com">www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com</A>>=20
wrote:<BR>>>You need to insert a Neve Portico 5042 on your =
master bus=20
"after" your<BR>>>limiter and crank the drive to get that extra =
3dB and=20
tape sat........if<BR>> you<BR>>>don't, you will=20
die<BR>>><BR>>>You knew deep down inside that you would be =
getting=20
one of these, =
didn't<BR>><BR>>>you?<BR>>> <BR>>><evil=20
grin><BR>><BR>> I have no doubt it sounds great, but I dunno =
if=20
that's going to<BR>> get me another 2 db RMS... I am hearing about=20
mastering houses<BR>> using convertors like Lavry Gold's & =
Prism's -=20
convertors that<BR>> cost like $15k - convertors that won't =
distort, no=20
matter what<BR>> you throw at 'em - and just lighting 'em up like=20
christmas<BR>> trees. One place apparently has rack covers over=20
their<BR>> convertors so the clients can't see them fire up &=20
start<BR>> panicking, thinking something's gone incredibly=20
wrong lol.<BR>><BR>> If that's what the latest trick =
is,=20
then ain't no way I can get<BR>> there; not at that price point... =
but I=20
suspect I might be able<BR>> to get a little bit closer - I think I =
might=20
be missing an<BR>> analog link in the back-end =
chain.<BR>><BR>> Maybe=20
two 737's followed by two Distressors??? Both units'<BR>> frequency =
range=20
response is off the map, so I don't think I'd<BR>> lose any =
fidelity...=20
Avalons would give me a gentle curve, plus<BR>> the harmonics & =
big=20
iron, and the benefit of EQ; Distressors<BR>> would hit it hard =
& clamp=20
it down.... anyone ever try this<BR>> method?<BR>><BR>> Neil=20
<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
and=20
you?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
..html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86950 is a reply to message #86939] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 07:57 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Neil,
Lots of advice from other people. Here's a few observations/opinions.
- If a mastering guy is using converters as limiters, that's a disturbing
admission of rank incompetence.
- I wouldn't say for sure than an opto compressor can't work here. Depending
on the dynamics of the song the compressor can be 'always on,' compressing
a little bit all the time. That changes the slew rate when it goes from say
1 db of gain reduction to 4-5.
- Do you have a UAD-1 card? You might try two of their opto comps/limiters
in series. The first one getting you most of the gain reduction and the second
one only hitting the peaks.
- Or you could try on opto plug-in followed by a straight digital limiter,
Dynasone from Prosoniq (the greatest mastering tool you've never used) has
various options for this, and sounds excellent. The PSP 'Vintage Warmter'
(the most offensively named plug in you've never used that still sounds really
great) has a limiter mode that might work for this.
- If you want to go the hardware route, I bet you'd find that renting a (well
maintained) two track tape deck would get you what you want more than a fancy
tube comp/limiter. As SSC once said, roughly, 'The great thing about tape
is how easy it is. Once the record head starts to glow, you're pretty much
there.'
That's all I can think of now. Good luck, and whenever I write this stuff
I'm really happy I work in genres where dynamics are still allowed.
TCB
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>..RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
>
>In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
>often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
>bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
>without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
>unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
>a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
>level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
>example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
>sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
>SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
>a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
>samples, but really, not too many!
>IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
>
>So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
>at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
>a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
>detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
>maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
>lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
>things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
>
>Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
>slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
>EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
>indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
>try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
>can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
>like that you think might get me where I need to go?
>
>
>Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86952 is a reply to message #86939] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 08:07 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
hey Neil.. I know what you mean. when I'm mixing todays R&B/hip hop, which
is just as agressive as metal, in Nuendo/SX..I struggle to get the HOTT!!!ness.
I've been saying this for awhile now. SX/neundo, starts to breakdown and
start echewing artifacts when you start slamming tracks.. Okay Rememdies..
-Sum out to any decent mixer with a decent comp..Masterlink
-Get a Paris System to Mix ..You already knwo what it can do ..
-Strangly, mix the project in PT (LE,M-powered). Todays PT 7.x summing buss
is much improved. Wider than Nuendo/SX
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>..RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
>
>In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
>often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
>bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
>without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
>unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
>a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
>level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
>example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
>sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
>SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
>a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
>samples, but really, not too many!
>IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
>
>So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
>at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
>a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
>detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
>maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
>lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
>things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
>
>Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
>slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
>EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
>indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
>try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
>can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
>like that you think might get me where I need to go?
>
>
>Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86954 is a reply to message #86939] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 08:32 |
EK Sound
Messages: 939
Registered: June 2005
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Senior Member |
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-3?!?!?!
Holy crap... no "air" in that stuff eh?
Glad I don't do that style of music... at -11 RMS I feel like my
head's in a vise!
David.
Neil wrote:
> ..RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
>
> In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
> often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
> bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
> without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
> unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
> a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
> level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
> example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
> sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
> SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
> a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
> samples, but really, not too many!
> IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
>
> So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
> at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
> a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
> detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
> maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
> lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
> things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
>
> Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
> slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
> EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
> indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
> try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
> can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
> like that you think might get me where I need to go?
>
>
> Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86958 is a reply to message #86952] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 08:54 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"LaMont" <jjpdro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>hey Neil.. I know what you mean. when I'm mixing todays R&B/hip hop, which
>is just as agressive as metal, in Nuendo/SX..I struggle to get the HOTT!!!ness.
>
>
>I've been saying this for awhile now. SX/neundo, starts to breakdown and
>start echewing artifacts when you start slamming tracks.. Okay Rememdies..
>
>-Sum out to any decent mixer with a decent comp..Masterlink
>-Get a Paris System to Mix ..You already knwo what it can do ..
>-Strangly, mix the project in PT (LE,M-powered). Todays PT 7.x summing buss
>is much improved. Wider than Nuendo/SX
>
See, I've tried that external summing stuff, remember? I liked
certain aspects of it, but I really did feel I was losing some
definition & was gaining "Phatness", but at the cost of also
getting high-end veiling.
Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86959 is a reply to message #86939] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 10:09 |
duncan
Messages: 123
Registered: November 2006
|
Senior Member |
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I'm out of the studio this week, helping a guy paint the house, so I
should have plenty of dB's to spare. I will send you a couple as soon
as I get a chance.
Hope this helps.
chas.
On 21 Jun 2007 12:15:56 +1000, "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>..RMS... across the mix buss, I mean.
>
>In the metalesque genres I tend to find myself working in most
>often, I'm noticing that I can get the hot parts (choruses,
>bridges, kazoo solos, etc) up to in the -5db range, RMS,
>without any real difficulty. Beyond that, I start noticing
>unnacceptable artifacts... problem is: beyond that is where
>a good deal of this stuff is going on the commercial-release
>level. Check out Breaking Benjamin's "Diary of Jane" for a good
>example... the choruses get up into the -3 RMS range, and it
>sounds freakin' PHAT! Big-ass low-end, you still can hear (and
>SEE) the dynamics - you zoom in on the waveform, and there are
>a FEW places with flatlines/clips across a few consecutive
>samples, but really, not too many!
>IOW, great job Chris Lord-Alge & Ted Jensen!
>
>So, anyway - I insert Izotope Ozone across the 2-Buss when I'm
>at the "final tweak" stage of a mix & as I said, it gets me to
>a certain level, but not beyond (without losing fidelity &
>detail - which I don't want to do), so I've been thinking...
>maybe go back out analog? Maybe a nice tube compressor with
>lots of harmonics & big iron in the path might help a bit? Push
>things a little harder before it even hits Ozone, ya know?
>
>Problem is most of the tube ones seem to be Opto... opto's too
>slow for this. I hear the Avalon 747's real clean & it's got an
>EQ, too, but that's an opto unit - and if my 737 is any
>indication, it might not have enough "attitude". Anyone ever
>try two 737's linked across a 2-buss? (I only have one, so I
>can't try it) how did that work? Anyone using anything they
>like that you think might get me where I need to go?
>
>
>Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86961 is a reply to message #86945] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 09:48 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Tom Bruhl" <arpegio@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Neil,
>I like much of what you're doing. At your level you should let the pros
=
>in the
>mastering world take your stuff to the next level. Try what Aaron said
=
>and/or take it to=20
>a mastering engineer you trust. That's their gig.
Thanks Tom - I'm not trying to do half-ass mastering (is that
anything like half-speed mastering? lol!), I'm just trying to
get the final stage of what I produce to be closer to that
level. I'm telling the guys I've been working with that they
should get thier stuff mastered, but when all they want is a
promo CD of a few songs to give away at gigs, or to send off to
clubs in other cities in order to try & get gigs, I think it's
hard for them to justify the additional expense. OR... if it's
a work in progress, as in they're recording three songs, and
then three months later they can afford to record three more -
in the meanwhile I can make the three they did sound "finished"
(or closer to it), then that's just an extra benefit that I can
offer, ya know?
Neil
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| Re: I need 2 more db... [message #86964 is a reply to message #86958] |
Thu, 21 June 2007 11:01 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I Hear ya.. Good job!! onthe project .>Sounds good as is..LAD
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjpdro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>hey Neil.. I know what you mean. when I'm mixing todays R&B/hip hop, which
>>is just as agressive as metal, in Nuendo/SX..I struggle to get the HOTT!!!ness.
>>
>>
>>I've been saying this for awhile now. SX/neundo, starts to breakdown and
>>start echewing artifacts when you start slamming tracks.. Okay Rememdies..
>>
>>-Sum out to any decent mixer with a decent comp..Masterlink
>>-Get a Paris System to Mix ..You already knwo what it can do ..
>>-Strangly, mix the project in PT (LE,M-powered). Todays PT 7.x summing
buss
>>is much improved. Wider than Nuendo/SX
>>
>
>See, I've tried that external summing stuff, remember? I liked
>certain aspects of it, but I really did feel I was losing some
>definition & was gaining "Phatness", but at the cost of also
>getting high-end veiling.
>
>Neil
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