Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Well, this sucks...
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81517 is a reply to message #81512] |
Wed, 14 March 2007 20:56   |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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I heard this on the radio tonight. They said he took two charcoal grills
in to a bathroom and died of carbon monoxide posioning. If you were going
to kill yourself, why would you do it in the way that he did? Why would
he call the police for help if he really wanted to die? It doesn't sound
right to me. If it's true, it's an even sadder story.
James
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>Bazillion-selling albums, gold & platinum records prolly lining
>his walls, Beatles tribute act that he supposedly loved doing
>as his hobby band, coupla kids, divorce finalized or close to
>it, new fiancee... nothing to look forward to, or what?
>
> http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=255077>1= 7702
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81518 is a reply to message #81517] |
Wed, 14 March 2007 20:11 |
Paul Braun
Messages: 391
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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On 15 Mar 2007 13:56:43 +1000, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I heard this on the radio tonight. They said he took two charcoal grills
>in to a bathroom and died of carbon monoxide posioning. If you were going
>to kill yourself, why would you do it in the way that he did? Why would
>he call the police for help if he really wanted to die? It doesn't sound
>right to me. If it's true, it's an even sadder story.
>
>
>James
>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>Bazillion-selling albums, gold & platinum records prolly lining
>>his walls, Beatles tribute act that he supposedly loved doing
>>as his hobby band, coupla kids, divorce finalized or close to
>>it, new fiancee... nothing to look forward to, or what?
>>
>> http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=255077>1= 7702
>>
Yeah.... I'm even more depressed than I was when I heard he died. I
just can't understand the mental process that brings somebody to that
decision, especially with a family, a fiancee, and good friends.
Tragic.
pab
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81524 is a reply to message #81518] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 01:42 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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It's called depression, and while the term is thrown out too easily these
days there are people who do suffer from it. Things that the rest of us would
be happy to have/do to them are endlessly burdensome.
What he did is, in fact, very sad, but there's a long tradition in many societies
of choosing one's time to die. It's hard for us to understand, though.
TCB
Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>On 15 Mar 2007 13:56:43 +1000, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I heard this on the radio tonight. They said he took two charcoal grills
>>in to a bathroom and died of carbon monoxide posioning. If you were going
>>to kill yourself, why would you do it in the way that he did? Why would
>>he call the police for help if he really wanted to die? It doesn't sound
>>right to me. If it's true, it's an even sadder story.
>>
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Bazillion-selling albums, gold & platinum records prolly lining
>>>his walls, Beatles tribute act that he supposedly loved doing
>>>as his hobby band, coupla kids, divorce finalized or close to
>>>it, new fiancee... nothing to look forward to, or what?
>>>
>>> http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=255077>1= 7702
>>>
>
>Yeah.... I'm even more depressed than I was when I heard he died. I
>just can't understand the mental process that brings somebody to that
>decision, especially with a family, a fiancee, and good friends.
>
>Tragic.
>
>pab
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81536 is a reply to message #81524] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 08:13 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Interesting that you could diagnose this from such a distance on the
available evidence.
Also, I would hope you realize that for many people, suicide has a moral
dimension beyond mere choice. Notice also that you happily present
suicide as a choice and depression without one.
Interesting.
DC
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>It's called depression, and while the term is thrown out too easily these
>days there are people who do suffer from it. Things that the rest of us
would
>be happy to have/do to them are endlessly burdensome.
>
>What he did is, in fact, very sad, but there's a long tradition in many
societies
>of choosing one's time to die. It's hard for us to understand, though.
>
>TCB
>
>Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>>On 15 Mar 2007 13:56:43 +1000, "James McCloskey"
>><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I heard this on the radio tonight. They said he took two charcoal grills
>>>in to a bathroom and died of carbon monoxide posioning. If you were going
>>>to kill yourself, why would you do it in the way that he did? Why would
>>>he call the police for help if he really wanted to die? It doesn't sound
>>>right to me. If it's true, it's an even sadder story.
>>>
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>
>>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Bazillion-selling albums, gold & platinum records prolly lining
>>>>his walls, Beatles tribute act that he supposedly loved doing
>>>>as his hobby band, coupla kids, divorce finalized or close to
>>>>it, new fiancee... nothing to look forward to, or what?
>>>>
>>>> http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=255077>1= 7702
>>>>
>>
>>Yeah.... I'm even more depressed than I was when I heard he died. I
>>just can't understand the mental process that brings somebody to that
>>decision, especially with a family, a fiancee, and good friends.
>>
>>Tragic.
>>
>>pab
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81549 is a reply to message #81536] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 10:10 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:45f95494$1@linux...
> Interesting that you could diagnose this from such a distance on the
> available evidence.
From the little evidence that has been presented, it does seem to be a
reasonable conclusion.
> Also, I would hope you realize that for many people, suicide has a moral
> dimension beyond mere choice. Notice also that you happily present
> suicide as a choice and depression without one.
On March 27th, it will be ten years since my own father took his life.
Depression definitely contributed to his choice. I believe that depression
has a strong genetic component that can be softened or exacerbated by many
environmental factors...
I have had periodic battles with depression myself. At one point, about a
year and a half before my father died, I was taken to a local hospital and
placed on a suicide watch. I had always thought that I would be the one to
kill myself - imagine my shock when my father was the one to go. It was a
profound lesson, and really helped me to reevaluate my own life. I am
thankful for that lesson. But what a cost...
I'm sure that my father could have been described with many of the same
words that have been used about Brad Delp. He was always the "fixer,"
always helping others, yet not allowing anyone to "fix" him. It's a bind
that is hard to get out of...
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81557 is a reply to message #81549] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 13:29 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Hi Doug,
It is something that many people must deal with. As you, (and I) have
discovered, it is not a death sentence, and it, like suicide is a choice.
Indeed, it sounds like Brad spent too many years trying to get a
bunch of raging monumental egos to get along. What no one talks
about, and I am sure you have dealt with a lot, is the reality that
suicide is the ultimate passive-agressive act. It is the one act of
aggression that cannot be topped by one's opponents; the ultimate
"I'll show you!". Now Tom, Fran, Sib and the rest of them will spend
the rest of their lives hating themselves and being despised by the
public for contributing to this death. And they did contribute to it.
Gotcha!
Depression is a choice. How bad do you want to live? I want to live
REAL bad, and so I find a way to consider depression my enemy instead
of my deity.
There are three things that really help:
Discplined and meaningful excercise. Martial arts is the best IMO, but
excercise of any kind is great medicine against depression.
The rote learning of the habits of a good life. This is the only type
of therapy that has any long-term success against depression. When
depressed, you ask yourself what a healthy person would be doing now
and simply do it. The more you do the things a healthy person would
do, no matter whether you want to or not, the less depressed you get.
And for me, there must be a spiritual component. We are responsible for
the lives we are given. My kid has a tendancy towards depression, and one
day, while passing a graveyard, I asked her "how many of those people in
the ground over there would love to have you new, perfect little healthy
body and life? Almost all of them, don't you think? And here you are,
young, smart, beautiful, with the world before you, and this is the best
you can do?? You are expected by God, to contribute to life and to
others. As you contribute, you will feel your great grandma smiling
at you, because that is how she lived too". (she was depressed because
her great grandma had died, and couldn't seem to get past it) Life is a
gift. Pass it on. It's why you were placed here. She still has, and will
always have this tendancy, as do you and do I and probably most of
us on this NG (musicians are terribly vulnerable to it) but she also has
a bunch of very good habits, a high rank in a very traditional karate
style, and a walk with her saviour. She will be fine.
And for severe depression, there are good meds out now. I don't think
that these drugs should be used for years, but there is a place for them.
I wish Brad had told the whole lot of 'em to go f*ck themselves (they
probably would have grown up a bit if he had) rather than taking the
passive-aggressive way out. This just sucks...
I am very sorry about your Dad. Mine passed a few years back from
cancer, but I think a suicide would have been much harder on us.
And I am very glad that you are here in the world with us and you
certainly contribute in a major way.
DC
"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:45f95494$1@linux...
>> Interesting that you could diagnose this from such a distance on the
>> available evidence.
>
>From the little evidence that has been presented, it does seem to be a
>reasonable conclusion.
>
>> Also, I would hope you realize that for many people, suicide has a moral
>> dimension beyond mere choice. Notice also that you happily present
>> suicide as a choice and depression without one.
>
>On March 27th, it will be ten years since my own father took his life.
>Depression definitely contributed to his choice. I believe that depression
>has a strong genetic component that can be softened or exacerbated by many
>environmental factors...
>
>I have had periodic battles with depression myself. At one point, about
a
>year and a half before my father died, I was taken to a local hospital and
>placed on a suicide watch. I had always thought that I would be the one
to
>kill myself - imagine my shock when my father was the one to go. It was
a
>profound lesson, and really helped me to reevaluate my own life. I am
>thankful for that lesson. But what a cost...
>
>I'm sure that my father could have been described with many of the same
>words that have been used about Brad Delp. He was always the "fixer,"
>always helping others, yet not allowing anyone to "fix" him. It's a bind
>that is hard to get out of...
>
>Doug
>
>http://www.parisfaqs.com
>
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81567 is a reply to message #81557] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 16:28 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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> Indeed, it sounds like Brad spent too many years trying to get a
> bunch of raging monumental egos to get along.
....and maybe not being able to recognize that it wasn't his
responsibility...
> What no one talks about, and I am sure you have dealt with a lot,
> is the reality that suicide is the ultimate passive-agressive act.
> It is the one act of aggression that cannot be topped by one's
> opponents; the ultimate "I'll show you!".
I'm not so sure about that one... When I was at the edge, looking into the
abyss, there was nobody else but me... It wasn't about "showing" anyone, it
wasn't about getting even, it was purely about ending the pain of being a
failure. I didn't think about individual failings per se, didn't think
about individual acts in my life. All I could think of was that I WAS A
FAILURE, a waste of time, space and breath. I didn't think my death would
have ANY impact upon the world. If I mattered, these simple things that I
was striving for would have come true, wouldn't they? But when the people
around me didn't seem to care about me, when nothing I said or did seemed to
change anything, it just reinforced my lack of impact on the world, and
solidified my belief that I should give up and leave. If I had thought I
mattered that much, that someone valued my life at all for anything good or
bad, I would not have been there at that point...
> Now Tom, Fran, Sib and the rest of them will spend the rest of
> their lives hating themselves and being despised by the public
> for contributing to this death. And they did contribute to it.
Strictly speaking, yes, they did contribute to the situation, just as my
mother contributed to my father's situation, but ultimately each death was
the individual's doing. Hopefully the others will think about it and
consider what they may have done to contribute and what they might have done
to help, but it is up to each of them to walk the paths of their own lives.
As for the public, I'm pretty cynical - the public will only remember it
until the next newsblurb comes along...
In my father's case, I believe that his suicide was in many ways an apology.
He and my mom had argued for years about many things. My mom has a lot of
control issues, and she will never let anyone prove anything is wrong with
her or prove that she has ever made an incorrect decision. My father's
death was him giving in to that, saying, "yes, you're right, I was wrong."
My dad also knew that my mom would get a half million bucks of insurance if
he killed himself, and I believe that was another part of the apology. How
does one accept an apology like that? I know that my mother and I have
dealt with this in very different ways...
> Depression is a choice. How bad do you want to live?
Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but clinical depression itself is not a choice.
Many people who suffer from depression don't even know they have depression,
and don't know that anything can be done about it. This is one of the
reasons that I believe it should be talked about openly - it's no different
from any other genetically encoded behavior pattern/tendency...
> There are three things that really help:
Yes, all three of these things are good, but I think we have to remember
that everyone is different, and what works for one person may not work for
another, no matter how much we believe in it. I think it is a mistake to
map our own beliefs, issues and solutions onto others. Each person must be
thought of separately, with separate genetics, separate environment, and
separate spirit. If we truly want to help that person, we must be open to
who they are. Being open to someone else's reality sometimes means that we
must put aside our own belief system and just accept that person for who
they are in that moment. For me personally, I trust that I am God's tool.
I know God has a bigger plan than I can understand or even know about, and I
strive to remain open to every moment and let each person be who they are,
no matter what I would have chosen for them. I know that in every
encounter, I have a role to play, and my part is to figure out exactly what
my role is...
> And I am very glad that you are here in the world with us and you
> certainly contribute in a major way.
We all have our part to play in the grand theater. Thanks for joining me...
:-)
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81568 is a reply to message #81567] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 17:51 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>If I had thought I
>mattered that much, that someone valued my life at all for anything good
or
>bad, I would not have been there at that point...
Well, I am glad you found that many people indeed do value
your life. I can't imagine this was Brad's problem though.
Wish I knew what was on those notes he left...
>but ultimately each death was
>the individual's doing. Hopefully the others will think about it and
>consider what they may have done to contribute and what they might have
done
>to help, but it is up to each of them to walk the paths of their own lives.
Absolutely... But damn wouldn't it be nice if bands didn't do this
crap to each other?
>My father's
>death was him giving in to that, saying, "yes, you're right, I was wrong."
>My dad also knew that my mom would get a half million bucks of insurance
if
>he killed himself, and I believe that was another part of the apology.
How
>does one accept an apology like that?
Well especially since it is sort of apologizing while belting
someone with a baseball bat isn't it? One cannot accept it,
one simply gets angry, depressed, and guilty. But at some
point we decide that the pattern will not repeat...
>Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but clinical depression itself is not a choice.
>Many people who suffer from depression don't even know they have depression,
>and don't know that anything can be done about it. This is one of the
>reasons that I believe it should be talked about openly - it's no different
>from any other genetically encoded behavior pattern/tendency...
Clinical depression is simply depression that has become a
serious habit. Yes, there are genetic and brain-chemistry
components, but there is a component of choice too. What
the percentages are, is unknowable for any individual, which
is why we should never condemn, but rather encourage.
>Yes, all three of these things are good, but I think we have to remember
>that everyone is different, and what works for one person may not work for
>another, no matter how much we believe in it. I think it is a mistake to
>map our own beliefs, issues and solutions onto others. Each person must
be
>thought of separately, with separate genetics, separate environment, and
>separate spirit. If we truly want to help that person, we must be open
to
>who they are. Being open to someone else's reality sometimes means that
we
>must put aside our own belief system and just accept that person for who
>they are in that moment. For me personally, I trust that I am God's tool.
>I know God has a bigger plan than I can understand or even know about, and
I
>strive to remain open to every moment and let each person be who they are,
>no matter what I would have chosen for them. I know that in every
>encounter, I have a role to play, and my part is to figure out exactly what
>my role is...
Agreed. Yet we share enough to be able to learn from each other,
I'm sure you agree. The things I spoke of do have an objective
track record of success. Certainly not in all cases, but more than
many other therapies for sure.
>We all have our part to play in the grand theater. Thanks for joining me...
>:-)
>
>Doug
Abso-fookin-lutely!
Here's a bumper sticker I want:
The atheists say;
Life's a bitch and then you die
The pollyanna Christians say
Life's great and then you go to heaven
I think they are both nutz...
I want one that says:
Lifes' a bitch! and then you go to heaven...
Works for me.
best
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81581 is a reply to message #81536] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 22:31 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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Well, Don, one doesn't need to be Sigmund effin Freud to guess that when a
healthy, financially and emotionally secure adult male with a family kills
himself he might have been depressed. And reading what the family said ('he's
now at peace' instead of 'we had no idea') makes it a notably stronger case.
Further, how you could say I 'happily' present suicide as a choice when in
precisely that sentence I say that what he did was 'sad?' I was only observing
that in many societies (as a history buff ancient Rome and Greece come immediately
to mind) suicide was considered a viable and socially accepted choice, and
it remains today not just a choice but kind of the ultimate choice. In addition,
in our modern society in certain situations--like taking suicidal risks in
wartime--leaving one's life on the table is considered heroic.
All of which is far too subtle for a blinkered mind such as your own. Your
point is that if everyone would go to the gym and love Jesus there wouldn't
be any depressed people anymore. I don't get offended by your pedantry anymore,
that ended a few years ago. But from personal experience I can tell you that
I come from a family of hard working, god fearing, Jesus loving, workout
enjoying people and off the top of my head I can count six suicides among
the males in the past three generations, and that's not counting the ones
who took the slow ride via drugs and drink. The women are either of sturdier
emotional stock or are contributing factors in the suicides because they
all live forever. I believe one of the primary reasons my own father decided
to get a doctorate in psychology was to better understand some of the demons
that his, and my, family face. But I guess he would have been better off
with a Stairmaster and a copy of the Good Book.
TCB
P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact, my suspicion
of spirituality in general has been shaken by this trip to Thailand. It's
my third time here, and each time I've made a few new friends and gotten
closer to actual Thais. The country is over 90% Buddhist and their spirituality
in the face of very real hardships is inspiring. I've never encountered a
sweeter, gentler group of people in my life. I've gotten to know the (unspeakably
gorgeous) girls who work in the swank restaurant/bar in my hotel, and three
of them just went on holiday together earlier this week. Where? To a Buddhist
temple that cares for Thais with AIDS. They used their _vacation_ to take
food and medicine and money to some people seriously fucked over by the world.
One of the motivations was a friend of theirs who recently came out as gay
to them, which is a far, far bigger deal in Thailand than in the US. And
instead of doing what would be easy, i.e. throwing the person out of their
life for making the wrong 'choice,' they embraced him and did something to
help the gay community in their country. I remain an atheist and make no
pretensions to Buddhism, but having seen how their piety brings out the noble
traits of charity and understanding I can no longer dismiss all religion
out of hand. Having seen what their quiet and sincere spirituality does for
Thais I have no choice but to respect it. I just despise closed minded holy
roller US fuckheads that much more.
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Interesting that you could diagnose this from such a distance on the
>available evidence.
>
>Also, I would hope you realize that for many people, suicide has a moral
>dimension beyond mere choice. Notice also that you happily present
>suicide as a choice and depression without one.
>
>Interesting.
>
>DC
>
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's called depression, and while the term is thrown out too easily these
>>days there are people who do suffer from it. Things that the rest of us
>would
>>be happy to have/do to them are endlessly burdensome.
>>
>>What he did is, in fact, very sad, but there's a long tradition in many
>societies
>>of choosing one's time to die. It's hard for us to understand, though.
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>>>On 15 Mar 2007 13:56:43 +1000, "James McCloskey"
>>><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I heard this on the radio tonight. They said he took two charcoal grills
>>>>in to a bathroom and died of carbon monoxide posioning. If you were
going
>>>>to kill yourself, why would you do it in the way that he did? Why would
>>>>he call the police for help if he really wanted to die? It doesn't sound
>>>>right to me. If it's true, it's an even sadder story.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Bazillion-selling albums, gold & platinum records prolly lining
>>>>>his walls, Beatles tribute act that he supposedly loved doing
>>>>>as his hobby band, coupla kids, divorce finalized or close to
>>>>>it, new fiancee... nothing to look forward to, or what?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=255077>1= 7702
>>>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah.... I'm even more depressed than I was when I heard he died. I
>>>just can't understand the mental process that brings somebody to that
>>>decision, especially with a family, a fiancee, and good friends.
>>>
>>>Tragic.
>>>
>>>pab
>>
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81584 is a reply to message #81581] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 23:53 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Well, Don, one doesn't need to be Sigmund effin Freud to guess that when
a
>healthy, financially and emotionally secure adult male with a family kills
>himself he might have been depressed. And reading what the family said ('he's
>now at peace' instead of 'we had no idea') makes it a notably stronger case.
Gee I didn't realize Freud was still in vogue... My point was that
"depression" is too easy and tells us next to nothing.
>Further, how you could say I 'happily' present suicide as a choice when
in
>precisely that sentence I say that what he did was 'sad?' I was only observing
>that in many societies (as a history buff ancient Rome and Greece come immediately
>to mind) suicide was considered a viable and socially accepted choice,
So, in that context, does your sadness amount to anything other than
a tossed-off fake sympathy?
After all, suicide can be a "viable and socially accepted choice" right?
There are other views, of course.
>it remains today not just a choice but kind of the ultimate choice. In addition,
>in our modern society in certain situations--like taking suicidal risks
in
>wartime--leaving one's life on the table is considered heroic.
None of which consitute suicide, so of course the reaction is, and
should be, different.
>All of which is far too subtle for a blinkered mind such as your own. Your
>point is that if everyone would go to the gym and love Jesus there wouldn't
>be any depressed people anymore. I don't get offended by your pedantry anymore,
>that ended a few years ago. But from personal experience I can tell you
that
>I come from a family of hard working, god fearing, Jesus loving, workout
>enjoying people and off the top of my head I can count six suicides among
>the males in the past three generations, and that's not counting the ones
>who took the slow ride via drugs and drink.
I can show you reams of evidence that these things work. Further, I doubt
your family is a good example of their failure. At least not if they are
as prejudiced and bitter as you appear to be. I think you can do
better. If you were really anything resembling an intellectual you
would be more tolerant. Just a thought.
>The women are either of sturdier
>emotional stock or are contributing factors in the suicides because they
>all live forever. I believe one of the primary reasons my own father decided
>to get a doctorate in psychology was to better understand some of the demons
>that his, and my, family face. But I guess he would have been better off
>with a Stairmaster and a copy of the Good Book.
I take it the Psych major worked for him? I sure hope so.
What works for you?
>P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact, my suspicion
>of spirituality in general has been shaken by this trip to Thailand. It's
>my third time here, and each time I've made a few new friends and gotten
>closer to actual Thais. The country is over 90% Buddhist and their spirituality
>in the face of very real hardships is inspiring. I've never encountered
a
>sweeter, gentler group of people in my life. I've gotten to know the (unspeakably
>gorgeous) girls who work in the swank restaurant/bar in my hotel, and three
>of them just went on holiday together earlier this week. Where? To a Buddhist
>temple that cares for Thais with AIDS. They used their _vacation_ to take
>food and medicine and money to some people seriously fucked over by the
world.
>One of the motivations was a friend of theirs who recently came out as gay
>to them, which is a far, far bigger deal in Thailand than in the US. And
>instead of doing what would be easy, i.e. throwing the person out of their
>life for making the wrong 'choice,' they embraced him and did something
to
>help the gay community in their country. I remain an atheist and make no
>pretensions to Buddhism, but having seen how their piety brings out the
noble
>traits of charity and understanding I can no longer dismiss all religion
>out of hand. Having seen what their quiet and sincere spirituality does
for
>Thais I have no choice but to respect it. I just despise closed minded holy
>roller US fuckheads that much more.
There is much to learn from Buddhism.
Your hate for people of faith is about you, not us. It doesn't bother me
since
it bears no relation to the truth. I have been around bitter, hateful atheists
all my life. My uncles were friends with Madalyn Murry O'Hare.
Here is the reward for her life:
http://crimemagazine.com/ohair.htm
I hope yours turns out better.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81588 is a reply to message #81581] |
Thu, 15 March 2007 23:32 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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TCB wrote:
> Well, Don, one doesn't need to be Sigmund effin Freud
Eeek! Damn it man! Now I have to clean the milk and cookie chips off
my monitor! (and out of my nose!) :-)
> All of which is far too subtle for a blinkered mind such as your own.
While I think I understand your sentiment and might actually go so far
as to say that Don is what I would term a "close-minded believer," I
would like to hope that there is still an opportunity to help him see
that God has allowed, and indeed created, other realities in the world
besides his own. It is obvious to me that his reality works for him, as
much as it may not work for others, and vice versa, but clubbing him on
the head isn't going to change his attitude, but merely make him retreat
deeper into that reality, building further artificial distinctions
between his chosen group and others...
> P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact,
While it is easy to see a stereotype of Bush-loving, NASCAR-watching,
Support-our-solders, WWE-fan, pickup-truck-driving, Wal-Mart shopping,
born-again, self-righteous, judgmental, evangelical fundamentalists, not
ALL of them are mindless sheep who lack spirituality...
> my suspicion of spirituality in general has been shaken by this
> trip to Thailand.
Thailand seems to be a magnificent place. Many people in my martial
arts and oriental medicine school have traveled there to study, and I
hope to join them on a future trip.
> The country is over 90% Buddhist and their spirituality
> in the face of very real hardships is inspiring.
I find true spirituality of any kind to be inspiring. While I myself
have chosen a Zen Buddhist path, my teacher is not only a Roshi, but
also a Catholic Priest, and someone I greatly admire.
> I remain an atheist and make no pretensions to Buddhism, but having
> seen how their piety brings out the noble traits of charity and
> understanding I can no longer dismiss all religion out of hand.
Would it seem odd if I said to you that you can be atheist and Buddhist
at the same time?
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81589 is a reply to message #81588] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 01:04 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Doug Wellington <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>While I think I understand your sentiment and might actually go so far
>as to say that Don is what I would term a "close-minded believer," I
>would like to hope that there is still an opportunity to help him see
>that God has allowed, and indeed created, other realities in the world
>besides his own.
If there is a God, there is but one reality. We can aspire to it,
we can reject it, but there is but one. I apsire to know it.
The accusation of closed-mindedness is always a dead giveaway that
someone cannot respond to a point you have made. When someone
calls me "closed-minded", let alone "blinkered" I know they are
desperate and have little to say of substance.
Any knowledge of truth will appear closed-minded to someone who
does not have that knowledge. Physicists tend to be closed-minded
about gravity. Electricians tend to be closed-minded about the electrical
code, and so forth. Jesus made truth claims. He cannot be another
good and kind teacher. As C.S. Lewis has said, he is either a raving
lunatic, an evil schemer, or exactly who he said he was. I believe he is
who he said he was. If that is so, "open-mindedness" about that
conclusion is foolishness not intelligence. Calling me "closed-minded"
simply means you cannot make your case, so Thad does not anger me
with his insults.
>It is obvious to me that his reality works for him, as
>much as it may not work for others, and vice versa, but clubbing him on
>the head isn't going to change his attitude, but merely make him retreat
>deeper into that reality, building further artificial distinctions
>between his chosen group and others...
If you notice; when clubbed, I reach out rather than retreat. I hope
someday that Thad will stop fighting his own conscience about these
things. It is his soul he battles with, not me.
>While it is easy to see a stereotype of Bush-loving, NASCAR-watching,
>Support-our-solders, WWE-fan, pickup-truck-driving, Wal-Mart shopping,
>born-again, self-righteous, judgmental, evangelical fundamentalists, not
>ALL of them are mindless sheep who lack spirituality...
I don't even *know* any that fit your, or Thad's caricatures of Christians.
It's too silly to get upset about.
>Would it seem odd if I said to you that you can be atheist and Buddhist
>at the same time?
It's absolutely true. There is no deity required in Buddhism.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81590 is a reply to message #81588] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 04:03 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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I don't pick fights with Don anymore, but I will respond when I am haughtily
treated and mocked. I don't expect to change his mind, but it does chafe
my ass to be told that depression is a 'choice' by someone who clearly doesn't
understand anything about it.
As for being a buddhist and an atheist, I don't think so. I'm pretty technical
about those kinds of words and I think to be a Thai buddhist you need to
believe in reincarnation and amulets and all of that. However, I will say
this, once a person is an atheist all religions become moral codes, and most
are pretty awful. Christianity is, in my opinion, better than most if only
because it's not especially vengeful or militaristic and Jesus himself believed
in the separation of church and state. But I still find it to be a humanity
hating religion, particularly if one happens to be a woman or enjoys having
sex with members of one's own sex. The Grecofied Jesus we get in Luke is,
again just in my opinion, the pick of the litter.
However, I will say this. As a moral code Thai buddhism, or more correctly
the Thai flavor of Theravada buddhism, is pretty damn hard to beat. I'm learning
more about it as time goes on, and I'm really going to dig in when I get
back from this trip, but it's not only a rather good moral code on its own,
it produces these people who so overwhelm me when I visit. Really, I almost
starting crying at dinner when my waitress who I've become buddies with started
showing me pictures of her 'vacation' to help out her friend helping out
people dead sick with AIDS. Here I am, stinking rich American and when I
go on vacation I go to Thailand and drink too much and go to titty bars and
buy expensive hand made clothes from Sikh tailors (and stingray cowboy boots
this time), and she who probably makes less in a year than I do in a month
goes to help sick people who are treated like dirt in this country. I felt
like such a repulsive first world cracker.
Now then, I'm a realist and there are plenty of assholes in this country
too and I'm sure somewhere there are nut job buddhist fundies oppressing
someone or another for some stupid reason. But in aggregate I have been slowly
overwhelmed by the generosity, quality, and simple morality of Thais. I mean,
I'll be at a club, talk to the DJ about how much I like a song, and he'll
try to give me the CD. Granted, he probably has it burned somewhere else,
but it's not offered for sale but just offered as a gift to a near stranger.
It's just the way they are. In any case, I will be learning a great deal
more about their country and religion when I get back, they're definitely
on to something.
The other thing I'm going to do is see what, if anything, is being done to
get these AIDS patients medicine. I was talking to my waitress friend and
was shocked at how sick people looked. AIDS isn't nearly the death sentence
it used to be, as a doctor friend of mine said recently, he'd rather get
AIDS than Hepatitis C. So I asked why these people were so sick and it's
just a matter of money. The US government won't let developing nations make
the medicines on their own and almost nobody can afford the treatment. So
they go and waste away in the woods. I'm lucky enough to know a lot or really
rich people and if I can do something to get some money directly to the place
she visited maybe that's a small payback for the exquisite hospitality this
country has shown me.
TCB
Doug Wellington <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>TCB wrote:
>> Well, Don, one doesn't need to be Sigmund effin Freud
>
>Eeek! Damn it man! Now I have to clean the milk and cookie chips off
>my monitor! (and out of my nose!) :-)
>
>> All of which is far too subtle for a blinkered mind such as your own.
>
>While I think I understand your sentiment and might actually go so far
>as to say that Don is what I would term a "close-minded believer," I
>would like to hope that there is still an opportunity to help him see
>that God has allowed, and indeed created, other realities in the world
>besides his own. It is obvious to me that his reality works for him, as
>much as it may not work for others, and vice versa, but clubbing him on
>the head isn't going to change his attitude, but merely make him retreat
>deeper into that reality, building further artificial distinctions
>between his chosen group and others...
>
>> P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact,
>
>While it is easy to see a stereotype of Bush-loving, NASCAR-watching,
>Support-our-solders, WWE-fan, pickup-truck-driving, Wal-Mart shopping,
>born-again, self-righteous, judgmental, evangelical fundamentalists, not
>ALL of them are mindless sheep who lack spirituality...
>
>> my suspicion of spirituality in general has been shaken by this
>> trip to Thailand.
>
>Thailand seems to be a magnificent place. Many people in my martial
>arts and oriental medicine school have traveled there to study, and I
>hope to join them on a future trip.
>
>> The country is over 90% Buddhist and their spirituality
>> in the face of very real hardships is inspiring.
>
>I find true spirituality of any kind to be inspiring. While I myself
>have chosen a Zen Buddhist path, my teacher is not only a Roshi, but
>also a Catholic Priest, and someone I greatly admire.
>
>> I remain an atheist and make no pretensions to Buddhism, but having
>> seen how their piety brings out the noble traits of charity and
>> understanding I can no longer dismiss all religion out of hand.
>
>Would it seem odd if I said to you that you can be atheist and Buddhist
>at the same time?
>
>Doug
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81591 is a reply to message #81584] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 04:17 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Well, Don, one doesn't need to be Sigmund effin Freud to guess that when
>a
>>healthy, financially and emotionally secure adult male with a family kills
>>himself he might have been depressed. And reading what the family said
('he's
>>now at peace' instead of 'we had no idea') makes it a notably stronger
case.
>
>
>Gee I didn't realize Freud was still in vogue... My point was that
>"depression" is too easy and tells us next to nothing.
>
>
>
>>Further, how you could say I 'happily' present suicide as a choice when
>in
>>precisely that sentence I say that what he did was 'sad?' I was only observing
>>that in many societies (as a history buff ancient Rome and Greece come
immediately
>>to mind) suicide was considered a viable and socially accepted choice,
>
>So, in that context, does your sadness amount to anything other than
>a tossed-off fake sympathy?
Do I feel as bad as I would of my cat died? No, but of course I feel bad
for the family. I've seen first hand what suicide does to the people left
behind and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>After all, suicide can be a "viable and socially accepted choice" right?
>
>There are other views, of course.
>
>
>>it remains today not just a choice but kind of the ultimate choice. In
addition,
>>in our modern society in certain situations--like taking suicidal risks
>in
>>wartime--leaving one's life on the table is considered heroic.
>
>None of which consitute suicide, so of course the reaction is, and
>should be, different.
>
>
>>All of which is far too subtle for a blinkered mind such as your own. Your
>>point is that if everyone would go to the gym and love Jesus there wouldn't
>>be any depressed people anymore. I don't get offended by your pedantry
anymore,
>>that ended a few years ago. But from personal experience I can tell you
>that
>>I come from a family of hard working, god fearing, Jesus loving, workout
>>enjoying people and off the top of my head I can count six suicides among
>>the males in the past three generations, and that's not counting the ones
>>who took the slow ride via drugs and drink.
>
>
>I can show you reams of evidence that these things work. Further, I doubt
>your family is a good example of their failure. At least not if they are
>as prejudiced and bitter as you appear to be. I think you can do
>better. If you were really anything resembling an intellectual you
>would be more tolerant. Just a thought.
>
>
>>The women are either of sturdier
>>emotional stock or are contributing factors in the suicides because they
>>all live forever. I believe one of the primary reasons my own father decided
>>to get a doctorate in psychology was to better understand some of the demons
>>that his, and my, family face. But I guess he would have been better off
>>with a Stairmaster and a copy of the Good Book.
>
>I take it the Psych major worked for him? I sure hope so.
He had a successful career as a college professor, survived a midlife divorce,
helped put both of his kids through college, remarried and plays a lot of
golf. I think it worked out pretty well for him, and I think his knowledge
of the 'technicalities' of personality did serve him well.
>What works for you?
The endless, relentless, and in the end probably impossible pursuit of beauty
and truth, both in actual things and in thoughts. It shows up in odd places
and at odd times, and it will shimmer at you for a second and then be gone.
But it's tough going and one has to be ready to admit being wrong, find out
things from places other people would ignore, and in the end be willing to
change one's mind. I'd suggest you try it but you are already in possession
of the Truth, as spoken by an apostate rabbi in a low rent Roman buffer colony.
Why bother finding beauty or truth when already in possession of Truth?
>
>>P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact, my suspicion
>>of spirituality in general has been shaken by this trip to Thailand. It's
>>my third time here, and each time I've made a few new friends and gotten
>>closer to actual Thais. The country is over 90% Buddhist and their spirituality
>>in the face of very real hardships is inspiring. I've never encountered
>a
>>sweeter, gentler group of people in my life. I've gotten to know the (unspeakably
>>gorgeous) girls who work in the swank restaurant/bar in my hotel, and three
>>of them just went on holiday together earlier this week. Where? To a Buddhist
>>temple that cares for Thais with AIDS. They used their _vacation_ to take
>>food and medicine and money to some people seriously fucked over by the
>world.
>>One of the motivations was a friend of theirs who recently came out as
gay
>>to them, which is a far, far bigger deal in Thailand than in the US. And
>>instead of doing what would be easy, i.e. throwing the person out of their
>>life for making the wrong 'choice,' they embraced him and did something
>to
>>help the gay community in their country. I remain an atheist and make no
>>pretensions to Buddhism, but having seen how their piety brings out the
>noble
>>traits of charity and understanding I can no longer dismiss all religion
>>out of hand. Having seen what their quiet and sincere spirituality does
>for
>>Thais I have no choice but to respect it. I just despise closed minded
holy
>>roller US fuckheads that much more.
>
>
>There is much to learn from Buddhism.
>
>Your hate for people of faith is about you, not us. It doesn't bother me
>since
>it bears no relation to the truth. I have been around bitter, hateful atheists
>all my life. My uncles were friends with Madalyn Murry O'Hare.
I don't hate faith, Don, I hate holy rollers who want to remake my home country
into a Christian theocracy. You might be surprised by this but I actually
fix computers at the Episcopal church down the block for free. One of the
active lay people in the church drinks at my local watering hole and they
do good things. Running a soup kitchen and after school programs for the
poor kids who live nearby. So I help them out.
And the O'Hare person. I never heard of her before you mentioned her name
and for some reason because she was an awful person you think that anyone
who has any of the same beliefs must also be awful and bitter and likely
to be murdered. That makes no sense.
TCB
>Here is the reward for her life:
>
>http://crimemagazine.com/ohair.htm
>
>
>I hope yours turns out better.
>
>DC
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81593 is a reply to message #81590] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 07:59 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>I don't pick fights with Don anymore, but I will respond when I am haughtily
>treated and mocked. I don't expect to change his mind, but it does chafe
>my ass to be told that depression is a 'choice' by someone who clearly doesn't
>understand anything about it.
http://www.depressionisachoice.com/
You may not agree, but it is you who is ignorant of this topic.
>But I still find it to be a humanity
>hating religion, particularly if one happens to be a woman or enjoys having
>sex with members of one's own sex.
These are lies. Paul was the great liberator of women, and
while the Bible presents homosexual acts as sinful, it clearly
expects the sinner to be respected as much as the porn addict,
tax cheat, or infidel. Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's basic
Christianity for everyone I know. And even hating the sin is not
supposed to be a public act.
You are welcome to you own opinion, bigoted as it may be,
you are not welcome to your own facts.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81598 is a reply to message #81591] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 08:59 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
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Senior Member |
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> And the O'Hare person. I never heard of her before you mentioned her name
> and for some reason because she was an awful person you think that anyone
> who has any of the same beliefs must also be awful and bitter and likely
> to be murdered. That makes no sense.
>
Thad.......I met her on a few occasions back in the 70's when I was a
student at University of Texas and afterward. I don't know if she was awful
because she was an atheist, or because she was an antheist who felt like she
was being oppressed by the religious right (and there isn't much of that in
Austin..it's always been a liberal minded place for the most
part).........or because she was just mean......but she was one of the most
singularly unpleasant people I've ever had the misfortune to meet, more
then once.........so from my perspective, this extreme unpleasantness seems
to have been consistent thing. I never said anything to provoke this person.
As for her being murdered, if one subscribes to the theory that people
attract to themselves those who are of of like mind, then she certainly
could have found herself up to her neck in a swirling brew of negative
personalities.
Glad you're having good experiences in Thailand. It's springtime here,
skunk season has arrived, the hounds are estatic and I am a bit fatigued due
to having to do the "skunkcheck" for these guys prior to letting them
outside at night when they alert that the property perimeters have been
violated by some creature that has come out of hibernation and is foraging
for food. Unsupervised boundary patrols by the dogs can be disastrous at
this time of year.
Now back to the seach for giant, combative cephalopods......
;o)
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81601 is a reply to message #81589] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 09:10 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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DC wrote:
> If there is a God, there is but one reality. We can aspire to it,
> we can reject it, but there is but one. I apsire to know it.
While I tend to agree that there is but one "true" reality, I would also
say that each person can have, and indeed must have, a different
perception of that one reality, hence my reference to multiple
realities... Please bear with me for "fudging" the definitions. Have
you ever studied philosophy? We could start bandying about with
philosophical terms if you know the language used. (Do you understand
the differences between the terms "realism", "idealism" and
"representationalism"?)
> The accusation of closed-mindedness is always a dead giveaway that
> someone cannot respond to a point you have made.
Do you believe that I can't respond to a point you have made?
> When someone calls me "closed-minded",
Is "close-minded" an observation? An accusation? A condemnation? An
opportunity?
> let alone "blinkered" I know they are desperate and have
> little to say of substance.
Ah, have I also now been so categorized...? Am I desperate? Do I have
little to say of substance? Have you closed your mind to me?
> Any knowledge of truth will appear closed-minded to someone who
> does not have that knowledge.
Absolutely. The clubbing-of-the-heads can go both ways...
> If you notice; when clubbed, I reach out rather than retreat.
Do you reach out with questions (open-mind) or statements (closed-mind)?
> I hope someday that Thad will stop fighting his own conscience about
> these things.
That is his path to worry about. I'm glad he's thinking about these
things...
> It is his soul he battles with, not me.
I can't speak for Thad, but I know that I have had my own fight with
issues that are represented by people who speak in ways such as you do.
I am seeking a greater understanding, hence my involvement in this
conversation...
> I don't even *know* any that fit your, or Thad's caricatures of
> Christians.
Heehee, as I said, not ALL Christians are like that, but if you deny
ever having seen any like that, I'd suggest getting out more often...
:-) Have you ever read Twain's Letters From The Earth? Twain observed
a difference between "professing" and "professional" Christians. I have
seen both types, and I bet that if you have the open mind you claim to,
you'll see both types as well... ;-)
Namaste,
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81603 is a reply to message #81591] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 10:27 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
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"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>I'd suggest you try it but you are already in possession
>of the Truth, as spoken by an apostate rabbi in a low rent Roman buffer
colony.
>Why bother finding beauty or truth when already in possession of Truth?
You're a bigot.
Worse, you're a bigot in possession of not truth, but Truth itself in
making such claims about Christ, and faith of the highest order in
your atheism, based on much flimsier evidence than I have for my
faith in God. In saying there is no Truth, you make the highest Truth
claim of all, based on nothing but your assertion.
Sorry, none for us thanks..
>I don't hate faith, Don, I hate holy rollers who want to remake my home
country
>into a Christian theocracy.
This is a lie. You regularly denigrate Jesus, and belief in general.
Do you need quotes?
Those who actually follow Christ are the last to make a theocracy;
it is the thing he resisted the most. You are lying about Christians.
>You might be surprised by this but I actually
>fix computers at the Episcopal church down the block for free. One of the
>active lay people in the church drinks at my local watering hole and they
>do good things. Running a soup kitchen and after school programs for the
>poor kids who live nearby. So I help them out.
But here is what the Bible says:
Ephesians 8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.
When you make fun of the "twice-born" it is these people you laugh at.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81606 is a reply to message #81601] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 11:10 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
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Doug Wellington <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>While I tend to agree that there is but one "true" reality, I would also
>say that each person can have, and indeed must have, a different
>perception of that one reality, hence my reference to multiple
>realities...
Doug! You changed definitions of a word in one sentance to have opposite
meanings. Do you think that the quotes around "true" will allow for this?
There are no multiple realities, there are only multple perceptions.
Perception is a synonym for opinion. When you elevate opinion to
reality, you make the word reality, meaningless. Good PoMo I suppose,
but certainly not good logic...
> > The accusation of closed-mindedness is always a dead giveaway that
> > someone cannot respond to a point you have made.
>Do you believe that I can't respond to a point you have made?
No, but you have not called me "closed-minded" yet and appear willing
to actually enagage the issues rather then simply attack the person.
> > When someone calls me "closed-minded",
>Is "close-minded" an observation? An accusation? A condemnation? An
>opportunity?
What does it mean to you? In Thad's case it is a denigration. Of course,
atheists are never closed-minded are they? But I do not call people
closed-minded because they disagree, for the reasons I stated.
> > let alone "blinkered" I know they are desperate and have
> > little to say of substance.
>Ah, have I also now been so categorized...? Am I desperate? Do I have
>little to say of substance? Have you closed your mind to me?
You did not use those words. Do you feel that way? When Thad describes
a "blinkered" mind, he is expressing discomfort with someone who has
beliefs he thinks are ridiculous and if I was just as sharp and hip as he,
I would be an atheist like him. This is called intolerance and it is worthy
of an Islamist, frankly. And it is based upon what? Negation? Despising
Christians? The almighty self screaming into the void that he is all
there is, all there was, and all that ever will be?
None for me thanks... Pardon me for actually believing in my beliefs,
so to speak, but I do and I believe them to reflect objective reality.
For me to accept faith as human myth-making is just another way
to describe accepting atheism.
> > Any knowledge of truth will appear closed-minded to someone who
>Do you reach out with questions (open-mind) or statements (closed-mind)?
Depends on whether the person is seeking or preaching. Thad is a
preacher. He preaches bigotry against Christians.
Ask a physicist about string theory and he will be open-minded. Ask
him about whether a glass will fall when you drop it, and he will be
less so. This is the fundamental nature of the debate between atheism
and theism. Thad is no more open-minded than I, but for me to call him
"closed minded" is simply too insubstantive and really, silly, a response
when there are much more important points to be made.
>I can't speak for Thad, but I know that I have had my own fight with
>issues that are represented by people who speak in ways such as you do.
> I am seeking a greater understanding, hence my involvement in this
>conversation...
Start here:
http://www.dwillard.org/books/DivConsp.asp
I will even send you a copy if you like. Let me know and I will send you
my email.
>Heehee, as I said, not ALL Christians are like that, but if you deny
>ever having seen any like that, I'd suggest getting out more often...
Never seen any in 20 years. They exist, but their presence is absurdly
exaggerated by those with an ox to gore. The reason they are so rare
is that to be a hate-filled, anti-woman, anti-gay "christian" you have to
not follow Christ. If you follow Christ, these things are sinful.
At our church the pastor preaches acceptance of gays and we have
female pastors. Heck, my wife and I were *married* by a woman. I have
gay friends, and have had them for years. And we are not United
Methodists or other liberals, we are evangelicals. The problem is that
you guys get your views of "christians" from a secular media that
depsises them. You believe lies about us, and I can prove it. But of
course, that might involve going to church and all...
>:-) Have you ever read Twain's Letters From The Earth? Twain observed
>a difference between "professing" and "professional" Christians. I have
>seen both types, and I bet that if you have the open mind you claim to,
>you'll see both types as well... ;-)
Twain of course, was far from neutral in these things, wouldn't you say?
Was he "closed-minded"? Just a thought...
When Christians are phonies and hypocrites, and I fail in these areas as
well, it is because they are not following Christ.
best,
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81607 is a reply to message #81606] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 10:45 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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Vehemently anti-gay Christians are easy to find. In many denominations,
not just fundamentalists. This is not a perception problem to be blamed
on "the media."
Caring, generous and tolerant Christians are also easy to find and bring
a lot of joy to the world, so to speak.
Vehemently anti-fundamentalist atheists are easy to find.
Caring, generous and tolerant atheists are also easy to find, and they
also contribute much to our civilization.
What can we conclude from this?
Some people, for whatever reasons, behave as jerks. Hiding behind a
particular belief system is a poor excuse.
Projection is epidemic in our culture.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
DC wrote:
>> Heehee, as I said, not ALL Christians are like that, but if you deny
>> ever having seen any like that, I'd suggest getting out more often...
>
> Never seen any in 20 years. They exist, but their presence is absurdly
> exaggerated by those with an ox to gore. The reason they are so rare
> is that to be a hate-filled, anti-woman, anti-gay "christian" you have to
> not follow Christ. If you follow Christ, these things are sinful.
> At our church the pastor preaches acceptance of gays and we have
> female pastors. Heck, my wife and I were *married* by a woman. I have
> gay friends, and have had them for years. And we are not United
> Methodists or other liberals, we are evangelicals. The problem is that
> you guys get your views of "christians" from a secular media that
> depsises them. You believe lies about us, and I can prove it. But of
> course, that might involve going to church and all...
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81610 is a reply to message #81593] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 13:59 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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TCB wrote:
> I don't expect to change his mind, but it does chafe my ass to be told
> that
> depression is a 'choice' by someone who clearly doesn't understand
> anything
> about it.
Yes, it seems obvious that Don does not have first hand knowledge of the
subject. (Not that I would wish that for anyone...) And yet, shouldn't we
take this opportunity to treat him as the un-knowing child-like spirit that
he is and to help him learn the truth? Why be angry with the ignorant?
Through interaction with us, God is providing him an opportunity for growth.
It is up to him to choose to listen or not... (If it helps you to think in
more atheistic terms, there is a coincidence in the universe right now where
a chance exists that we can help Don understand that his opinion of his
perception of the one true reality might not be the same as yours or mine
is, and to realize that each one is as valid as the other...)
DC wrote:
> These are lies. Paul was the great liberator of women,
Interesting that Mohammed was also considered the great liberator of women.
DC continues:
> while the Bible presents homosexual acts as sinful, it clearly
> expects the sinner to be respected as much as the porn addict,
> tax cheat, or infidel.
Don, in my reading of your messages, it seems to me that you do not show
respect for Thad. Why the disconnect?
> Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's basic Christianity for everyone I
> know.
> And even hating the sin is not supposed to be a public act.
This makes me wonder even more about all of your public messages...why do
you attack Thad so much? Are you not yet Christian enough to love him?
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81611 is a reply to message #81606] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 15:10 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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"DC" wrote:
> Doug! You changed definitions of a word in one sentance to have opposite
> meanings. Do you think that the quotes around "true" will allow for
> this?
Ah, but you seem to have ignored my phrase "Please bear with me for
"fudging" the definitions." (Exactly my reason for putting the quotes
around "true"...) And you didn't say anything about whether you understood
what is meant by the various philosophical terms I mentioned...
> There are no multiple realities, there are only multple perceptions.
I believe that you and I are in agreement on that, maybe for different
reasons...
> Perception is a synonym for opinion. When you elevate opinion to
> reality, you make the word reality, meaningless.
And in all honesty, isn't it? (Or as my teacher might put it, "can you not
handle the doubt?")
> Good PoMo I suppose, but certainly not good logic...
Sorry, what is "PoMo"? And since when did logic have anything to do with
faith, spirituality, or for that matter, reality?
>>Do you believe that I can't respond to a point you have made?
>
> No, but you have not called me "closed-minded" yet and appear willing
> to actually enagage the issues rather then simply attack the person.
Ah, but if you go back and look, I did indeed imply that... ;-)
>>Is "close-minded" an observation? An accusation? A condemnation? An
>>opportunity?
>
> What does it mean to you?
All of the above... More important than the phrase itself is one's
*reaction* to the phrase...
>>Do you reach out with questions (open-mind) or statements (closed-mind)?
>
> Depends on whether the person is seeking or preaching.
Why treat those two things differently? I've always liked that idea that
when you point at others, there are three fingers pointing back... Are you
yourself a seeker? Or a believer?
> http://www.dwillard.org/books/DivConsp.asp
It's interesting that you point out this book that includes phrases such as
"consumer Christianity" and "bumper-sticker faith" yet you imply elsewhere
that we only get those ideas about Christians from "a secular media that
depsises them (sic)"...
> You believe lies about us, and I can prove it.
I don't understand how you can be so prescriptive about what the "you"
believe about the "us"... What can you prove?
> But of course, that might involve going to church and all...
"...church put me right off religion for fifteen years..." -John Cleese
Which church would be on the approved list to go to?
> Twain of course, was far from neutral in these things, wouldn't you say?
Neutral people are rarely inspired to write about anything. Have you
actually read that book yourself?
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81614 is a reply to message #81610] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 16:26 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>Yes, it seems obvious that Don does not have first hand knowledge of the
>subject.
Wrong. You have no idea.
>(Not that I would wish that for anyone...) And yet, shouldn't we
>take this opportunity to treat him as the un-knowing child-like spirit that
>he is and to help him learn the truth?
Doug.. really... You really have no clue here.
Okay, both you and Thad need to read this book:
http://www.depressionisachoice.com/
and the new one Brainswitch. She is getting quite startling
results. It is something you both need to be aware of before
you apply such silly little characterizations to anyone...
Until you read it, the ignorance is not mine.
>a chance exists that we can help Don understand that his opinion of his
>perception of the one true reality might not be the same as yours or mine
>is,
Oh, that is a given here, and never in doubt. We will stipulate
to different perceptions.
>and to realize that each one is as valid as the other...)
If this is true, then neither is valid, since there is no objective
reality and both are therefore delusions.
But, both are actually truth claims. As such, at least one is
wrong. Thad certainly thinks mine is wrong. See, that is the
thing about atheists. Many of them are diehard modernists
and are quite certain that there is an objective reality and they
know it, at least the part about a deity...
Different realities, based upon subjective perception,
is a postmodern conceit to them, as it is to me. Thad
claims that there is no objective basis upon which to believe
in God. You believe that there is no objectivity, other than
one that we have no apparent access to. There really is no
common ground here. It is quite best if we all talk about
something else at this point.
>DC wrote:
>> These are lies. Paul was the great liberator of women,
>Interesting that Mohammed was also considered the great liberator of women.
Do you know the difference? Where did Mohammed say anything
like this:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for
you are all one in Christ Jesus.
I can show you dozens or maybe even hundreds of texts
denying this in the Koran.
>> while the Bible presents homosexual acts as sinful, it clearly
>> expects the sinner to be respected as much as the porn addict,
>> tax cheat, or infidel.
>Don, in my reading of your messages, it seems to me that you do not show
>respect for Thad. Why the disconnect?
He hates Christians. He derides us every chance he
gets, and is functioning as an advocate for hate.
Here's some quotes:
--------
I just despise closed minded holy roller US fuckheads that
much more.
P.S. While my hatred of the stateside twice born remains intact...
--------
There have been many more over the years. Now imagine,
instead of the anti-Christian slurs, you insert the N-word
or an anti-arab slur? Oh, this place would be up in arms...
But it is perfectly OK to hate Christians?
Bull. And I will stand in his face and tell him enough... If you
call that lack of respect, then you don't get it.
>> Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's basic Christianity for everyone I
>> know.
>> And even hating the sin is not supposed to be a public act.
>This makes me wonder even more about all of your public messages...why do
>you attack Thad so much? Are you not yet Christian enough to love him?
I love him dearly actually. He reminds me of so many lost
souls trying to comfort their shouting consciences with hate.
He quite reminds me of myself at times, and worse he reminds
me of my uncle-the-atheist on his deathbed dying of leukemia
asking us for a reason to believe in God...
(He found one, BTW)
See, if I am wrong, I am just a silly cultist and you can all think
I am stupid. I can live with that. Because if I am right, then we
are living in the end times, and each of you will one day point
a finger at me and scream "why didn't you TELL us?? You KNEW!!
You knew, and you didn't tell us!" So, listen, or turn the page,
but enough with the hate because of my faith in my Lord.
It's pathetic and makes those who indulge in it look disturbed,
and I will never back down in the face of this bigotry.
The fact that some people are so offended that I care enough
to tell them the truth, even if I am wrong, casts serious
aspersions on their own beliefs and souls.
If a Hindu said to you that through good living, we can come
back as higher beings in the next life, and through an evil life
we will come back as bugs, some would listen, some would not,
but few would insult the Hindu for his beliefs. But Christians?
Yeah we're just a bunch of fuckheads...
Shame on you.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81617 is a reply to message #81611] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 16:45 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>Ah, but you seem to have ignored my phrase "Please bear with me for
>"fudging" the definitions." (Exactly my reason for putting the quotes
>around "true"...)
I did not ignore it, I rejected it. It is irrational and allows you
to say things that make no sense.
>And you didn't say anything about whether you understood
>what is meant by the various philosophical terms I mentioned...
I do not engage in credential-comparisons, nor in the use of
specialized terms as a way to establish authority, and will not
do so now. Let's just say I had a good education and spent many
years in academia...
>> Perception is a synonym for opinion. When you elevate opinion to
>> reality, you make the word reality, meaningless.
>And in all honesty, isn't it? (Or as my teacher might put it, "can you
not
>handle the doubt?")
You can define any word as meaningless then can't you?
Words like justice, fairness, equality, freedom?
I mean what is "meaning" right?
Yeah Doug, you go there if you want. I won't be joining you.
>> Good PoMo I suppose, but certainly not good logic...
>Sorry, what is "PoMo"? And since when did logic have anything to do with
>faith, spirituality, or for that matter, reality?
Post Modernism. The hoax of the last 200 years.
Logic has everything to do with faith and spirituality if Jesus
was who he said he was. If not, it is just comforting myth-making
and quasi-poetic claptrap for the weak who need that sort of thing.
>Ah, but if you go back and look, I did indeed imply that... ;-)
Ahh, then you are a silly little man as well <grin>
Again, if I am right, than I will appear closed-minded to the
ignorant.... Open-mindedness towards lies, is stupidity.
>> Depends on whether the person is seeking or preaching.
>Why treat those two things differently?
One is advocating, one is not.
>Are youyourself a seeker? Or a believer?
I am a believer who seeks to know more than I currently do.
The fundamentals are known.
>> http://www.dwillard.org/books/DivConsp.asp
>It's interesting that you point out this book that includes phrases such
as
>"consumer Christianity" and "bumper-sticker faith" yet you imply elsewhere
>that we only get those ideas about Christians from "a secular media that
>depsises them (sic)"...
I implied no such thing. Willard does not despise Christians,
since he is one, and the mainstream culture does. Read it.
>> You believe lies about us, and I can prove it.
>I don't understand how you can be so prescriptive about what the "you"
>believe about the "us"... What can you prove?
That Christians are very different than you and Thad have
presented them. That would be easy.
>> But of course, that might involve going to church and all...
>"...church put me right off religion for fifteen years..." -John Cleese
Clever
>Which church would be on the approved list to go to?
Give me a call sometime. I can take you to a variety and
introduce you to dozens of actual Christians, bearing no
resemblance to your caricatures.
>> Twain of course, was far from neutral in these things, wouldn't you say?
>Neutral people are rarely inspired to write about anything. Have you
>actually read that book yourself?
But you presented it as an insightful comment. Tell you what,
I'll read it and write a review if you do the same for "The Divine
Conspiracy".
Deal?
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81623 is a reply to message #81617] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 17:38 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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Don,
> I did not ignore it, I rejected it. It is irrational and allows you
> to say things that make no sense.
Burning bush that talks? Rising from the dead? Do these things make
"sense"? ;-)
> I do not engage in credential-comparisons, nor in the use of
> specialized terms as a way to establish authority, and will not
> do so now.
Hmmm, I have not displayed my credentials as of yet. I am merely trying
establish a framework of communication where we use terms that have
definitions familiar to all participants. No authority structure
included... :-)
> You can define any word as meaningless then can't you?
> Words like justice, fairness, equality, freedom?
Different societies in different places and times seem to have reassigned
different meanings to those words, have they not?
> Post Modernism. The hoax of the last 200 years.
More accurately, you mean "Post Modern Scientific Materialism"... Correct?
> Logic has everything to do with faith and spirituality if Jesus
> was who he said he was.
And therein lies the rub - how do you know who/what he said he was? How did
what he claimed about himself compare to what others said about him? Do you
believe that Scripture is inerrant? (Heehee, and which version of
Scripture? And what about the other versions?) What's your take on the
Synoptic Problem? Do you know what "Q" is? How do you reconcile the
differences between John and the Synoptic Gospels? Have you ever read
"Jesus, Son of Man" or "Misquoting Jesus"? Have you read any of Elaine
Pagels' books? Have you read any of the Nag Hammadi writings? Are you
familiar with any of the non-canonical Gospels? How would modern
Christianity be different if the church had chosen Thomas instead of John as
one of the four canonical Gospels? If Constantine had not embraced orthodox
Christianity, what do you think would have happened with the "battle"
between the Gnostics and the Orthodoxy? What kind of impact does the Gospel
of Mary Magdelene have on the role of women in Christianity? Why was her
true identity hidden and her reputation sullied by the Christian church?
Are you familiar with the writings of St. John of the Cross? Meister
Eckhart? Thomas Merton? Alan Watts? Krishmamurti? G.K. Chesterton? Josh
McDowell? (Not trying to establish credentials or authority here, just
wondering what common ground we might have...)
"Faith is no excuse for ignorance! Adherence to any tradition in disregard
for textual evidence is sheer superstition." -Mahlon H. Smith
http://www.virtualreligion.net
> Ahh, then you are a silly little man as well <grin>
Hey, I resemble that! (Well, except for the "little" part...)
>>> Depends on whether the person is seeking or preaching.
>>Why treat those two things differently?
> One is advocating, one is not.
Aren't they each worth approaching with an open mind?
> That Christians are very different than you and Thad have
> presented them. That would be easy.
Have I made any blanket statements that I have said apply to all Christians?
>>Which church would be on the approved list to go to?
>
> Give me a call sometime.
Where do you live? I'm down here in Tucson, Arizona...
> I can take you to a variety and introduce you to dozens of
> actual Christians, bearing no resemblance to your caricatures.
Gee, I've never met an actual Christian before! [/sarcasm]
I'm pretty sure they aren't limited to your town and your church, as I've
heard reports of Christians being spotted right here in this very county.
;-)
I'm sorry, I believe I should have asked a different question: "Which
churches are NOT on the approved list to go to?"
[RE: Twain]
> But you presented it as an insightful comment.
Does a non-neutral viewpoint make it any less insightful?
> Tell you what, I'll read it and write a review if you do the
> same for "The Divine Conspiracy".
>
> Deal?
I'll take that bet and raise you one: I'll read your depression is a choice
book if you promise to read Stan Grof's "Holotropic Mind" all the way
through...
:-)
Doug
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81624 is a reply to message #81623] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 19:31 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>Don,
>Burning bush that talks? Rising from the dead? Do these things make
>"sense"? ;-)
Of course. Unless you are an atheist.
>Hmmm, I have not displayed my credentials as of yet. I am merely trying
>establish a framework of communication where we use terms that have
>definitions familiar to all participants. No authority structure
>included... :-)
Not here. Would you like my email and we can use all the esoteric
language you like? I'm sure we would enjoy it.
The case for faith and against atheism can be made in everyday language.
That is important to me.
>> You can define any word as meaningless then can't you?
>> Words like justice, fairness, equality, freedom?
>
>Different societies in different places and times seem to have reassigned
>different meanings to those words, have they not?
Yes, and your point is what? That usage determines truth? That truth
is cultural?
Again, if there is a God, then there is a standard outside ourselves.
Everything grows from your assumptions.
>> Post Modernism. The hoax of the last 200 years.
>
>More accurately, you mean "Post Modern Scientific Materialism"... Correct?
Not at all. What is that BTW?
>> Logic has everything to do with faith and spirituality if Jesus
>> was who he said he was.
>And therein lies the rub - how do you know who/what he said he was? How
did
>what he claimed about himself compare to what others said about him? Do
you
>believe that Scripture is inerrant? (Heehee, and which version of
>Scripture? And what about the other versions?) What's your take on the
>Synoptic Problem? Do you know what "Q" is? How do you reconcile the
>differences between John and the Synoptic Gospels? Have you ever read
>"Jesus, Son of Man" or "Misquoting Jesus"? Have you read any of Elaine
>Pagels' books? Have you read any of the Nag Hammadi writings? Are you
>familiar with any of the non-canonical Gospels? How would modern
>Christianity be different if the church had chosen Thomas instead of John
as
>one of the four canonical Gospels? If Constantine had not embraced orthodox
>Christianity, what do you think would have happened with the "battle"
>between the Gnostics and the Orthodoxy? What kind of impact does the Gospel
>of Mary Magdelene have on the role of women in Christianity? Why was her
>true identity hidden and her reputation sullied by the Christian church?
>Are you familiar with the writings of St. John of the Cross? Meister
>Eckhart? Thomas Merton? Alan Watts? Krishmamurti? G.K. Chesterton?
Josh
>McDowell? (Not trying to establish credentials or authority here, just
>wondering what common ground we might have...)
Fundamentally, if you assume that things are always as they are now,
there are no miracles, Jesus was just a man, and the Bible is myth-making,
and psychology and culture determine morality and behaviour, then those
beliefs will form your view of these issues. If you believe it to be
impossible for Darwin to explain life, and the concepts of sin, the fall,
salvation and grace are the best ways to explain the current unpleasantness,
and you have seen miracles and the presence of God in the lives of humans,
and the plan of salvation as fulfilled by Jesus Christ is the ultimate
expression of both love and reality, then you will form very different
views on these issues. Now, I do not believe in verbal inerrancy, but
I most certainly do believe in conceptual inerrancy, and the basics may
be understood by children. Which makes a faithful child infinitely better
than a doubt-filled post-modern with a strong sense of superiority.
>"Faith is no excuse for ignorance! Adherence to any tradition in disregard
>for textual evidence is sheer superstition." -Mahlon H. Smith
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in
him,
rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught,
and
overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive
philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles
of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you
have
been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power
and authority."
The Apostle Paul Col. 2: 6-10
>> One is advocating, one is not.
>
>Aren't they each worth approaching with an open mind?
Again, if something is true, and something else is false, to accuse the
one seeing the falsehood of closed-mindedness goes beyond ad hominem
arguing (attacking the person rather than the idea) and begs the original
question. It is a sign that one is out of ideas and getting desperate.
>> That Christians are very different than you and Thad have
>> presented them. That would be easy.
>
>Have I made any blanket statements that I have said apply to all Christians?
As I said, I have met no Christians, none at all, that fit the caricature
he has presented, in many years.
>> Give me a call sometime.
>
>Where do you live? I'm down here in Tucson, Arizona...
Nice town. Good Mexican food to be had. I am near L.A.
>> I can take you to a variety and introduce you to dozens of
>> actual Christians, bearing no resemblance to your caricatures.
> Gee, I've never met an actual Christian before! [/sarcasm]
Well there has been little evidence of the encounter...
>I'm pretty sure they aren't limited to your town and your church, as I've
>heard reports of Christians being spotted right here in this very county.
>;-)
I'm shocked, shocked that there is Christianity going on here!!
>I'm sorry, I believe I should have asked a different question: "Which
>churches are NOT on the approved list to go to?"
Like martial arts, it ain't the style, it is the teacher and the spirit of
the
place.
>[RE: Twain]
>> But you presented it as an insightful comment.
>Does a non-neutral viewpoint make it any less insightful?
His hostility to Christians makes it less so on the surface, but I would
like
to read that sometime.
>
>> Tell you what, I'll read it and write a review if you do the
>> same for "The Divine Conspiracy".
>>
>> Deal?
>
>I'll take that bet and raise you one: I'll read your depression is a choice
>book if you promise to read Stan Grof's "Holotropic Mind" all the way
>through...
That looks interesting actually.
Tell you what. Read Willard first, and I will read Twain and we can
do book reviews in a week or so.
It is on amazon for about 12 bucks, or you can borrow my copy.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81628 is a reply to message #81614] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 18:41 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Senior Member |
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OK, I don't have much time left today, but I'll try to hit the highlights...
It's been a fun ride... :-)
> See, that is the thing about atheists.
Don, I see this as you making a blanket statement about all atheists, while
complaining that Thad makes blanket statements about all Christians. Don't
we all have to play by the same rules to get along?
> I can show you dozens or maybe even hundreds of texts
> denying this in the Koran.
How much time have you spent looking for negativity in the Quran? How much
time have you spent looking for inspiration? As I told an evangelical
Christian friend of mine, I think it's not about whether to believe that the
Bible is the Word of God, it's whether to believe that the Bible is the ONLY
Word of God...
> He hates Christians. He derides us every chance he
> gets, and is functioning as an advocate for hate.
[shrug] I don't get that impression from him myself. He seems to hate your
attitude, your actions, and your words, and those of other people like you.
I don't think that includes all Christianity... (Heehee, have you ever seen
that bumper sticker that says, "Jesus, Save Me From Your Followers!" ? Can
you imagine why anyone would feel that way?)
> I love him dearly actually. He reminds me of so many lost
> souls trying to comfort their shouting consciences with hate.
Interesting. Aren't we supposed to reach out with kind words to those we
love?
> The fact that some people are so offended that I care enough
> to tell them the truth, even if I am wrong,
Even if you are wrong? So you mean it might just be your opinion about your
perception of reality after all? If there is a chance that you are wrong,
does that mean there is a chance Thad is right?
> Shame on you.
Duly chastised, the cloud of un-knowing shakes his weary head and turns back
to his humble abode to find solace in the writings of the many prophets that
have walked the earth...
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81629 is a reply to message #81628] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 20:25 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Doug Wellington" <doug@parisfaqs.com> wrote:
>> See, that is the thing about atheists.
>Don, I see this as you making a blanket statement about all atheists, while
>complaining that Thad makes blanket statements about all Christians. Don't
>we all have to play by the same rules to get along?
Whoops! You selectively quoted. I said many atheists are modernists
and believe they are objectively correct.
Here is the evidence. http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/
>> I can show you dozens or maybe even hundreds of texts
>> denying this in the Koran.
>How much time have you spent looking for negativity in the Quran?
I let Osama do that. He's quite decent at it.
>As I told an evangelical
>Christian friend of mine, I think it's not about whether to believe that
the
>Bible is the Word of God, it's whether to believe that the Bible is the
ONLY
>Word of God...
I do believe in salvation for non-Christians, as do many Catholics.
That does not make the Bible and the Koran equal however...
>> He hates Christians. He derides us every chance he
>> gets, and is functioning as an advocate for hate.
>[shrug] I don't get that impression from him myself. He seems to hate
your
>attitude, your actions, and your words, and those of other people like you.
>I don't think that includes all Christianity... (Heehee, have you ever
seen
>that bumper sticker that says, "Jesus, Save Me From Your Followers!" ?
Can
>you imagine why anyone would feel that way?)
It's rubbish, and insulting, and superior all at the same time. It is the
atheist version of the Church Lady and her "superior dance".
And Thad has insulted anyone who believes in Jesus on numerous occasions.
>
>> I love him dearly actually. He reminds me of so many lost
>> souls trying to comfort their shouting consciences with hate.
>Interesting. Aren't we supposed to reach out with kind words to those we
>love?
I have. And I would be just as hard or moreso on my own brother if I
thought he needed it.
>> The fact that some people are so offended that I care enough
>> to tell them the truth, even if I am wrong,
>Even if you are wrong? So you mean it might just be your opinion about
your
>perception of reality after all? If there is a chance that you are wrong,
>does that mean there is a chance Thad is right?
Sorry, I was writing too fast and did not express myself well. I was trying
to say that even if someone thinks I somebody else is wrong, there is
no reason for such hate.
>> Shame on you.
>Duly chastised, the cloud of un-knowing shakes his weary head and turns
back
>to his humble abode to find solace in the writings of the many prophets
that
>have walked the earth...
And a pilgrim asked to see the guru, and was told he must first spend
three years in meditation. After the three years, he was ushered into
the presence of the great one, and was asked "what is it you wish to know
my son?" Why the meaning of life master!
Life? Well, life is like a beanstalk isn't it?
(followed by a great screeching sound from the orchestra and a scream as
the young man fell into outer darkness)
"In Held 'Twas I" Procul Harum, live with the Edmonton Symphony.
DC
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81633 is a reply to message #81598] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 21:47 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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Yeah, she sure sounds like an awful person, and your individual experience
matches up with what people write about her. Which has precisely zero to
do with me, by the way.
Good luck with the pups, the one (single, only, solitary) bad thing about
this trip is that I miss my four legged friend back home. But I'll be seeing
him on Monday when a very jetlagged and probably slightly hungover TCB will
be returning to Connecticut, which I hear is currently under six inches of
snow.
TCB
"DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>> And the O'Hare person. I never heard of her before you mentioned her name
>> and for some reason because she was an awful person you think that anyone
>> who has any of the same beliefs must also be awful and bitter and likely
>> to be murdered. That makes no sense.
>>
>
>
>Thad.......I met her on a few occasions back in the 70's when I was a
>student at University of Texas and afterward. I don't know if she was awful
>because she was an atheist, or because she was an antheist who felt like
she
>was being oppressed by the religious right (and there isn't much of that
in
>Austin..it's always been a liberal minded place for the most
>part).........or because she was just mean......but she was one of the most
>singularly unpleasant people I've ever had the misfortune to meet, more
>then once.........so from my perspective, this extreme unpleasantness seems
>to have been consistent thing. I never said anything to provoke this person.
>As for her being murdered, if one subscribes to the theory that people
>attract to themselves those who are of of like mind, then she certainly
>could have found herself up to her neck in a swirling brew of negative
>personalities.
>
>Glad you're having good experiences in Thailand. It's springtime here,
>skunk season has arrived, the hounds are estatic and I am a bit fatigued
due
>to having to do the "skunkcheck" for these guys prior to letting them
>outside at night when they alert that the property perimeters have been
>violated by some creature that has come out of hibernation and is foraging
>for food. Unsupervised boundary patrols by the dogs can be disastrous at
>this time of year.
>
>Now back to the seach for giant, combative cephalopods......
>
>;o)
>
>
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| Re: Well, this sucks... [message #81634 is a reply to message #81633] |
Fri, 16 March 2007 21:26 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
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Senior Member |
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Man...I'd love to go to Thailand for a while. I could spend a lot of money
that I'm not making because I'm on vacation and then worry the entire time
because while I'm enjoying myself on vacation, the bills continue to roll in
because they do not go on vacation and therefore I could spend my entire
vacation worrying about spending money that I'm not making while I'm
spending just as much money on bills that are not stopping.
Self employment is sooo cool sometimes.
;o)
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:45fb64e8$1@linux...
>
> Yeah, she sure sounds like an awful person, and your individual experience
> matches up with what people write about her. Which has precisely zero to
> do with me, by the way.
>
> Good luck with the pups, the one (single, only, solitary) bad thing about
> this trip is that I miss my four legged friend back home. But I'll be
> seeing
> him on Monday when a very jetlagged and probably slightly hungover TCB
> will
> be returning to Connecticut, which I hear is currently under six inches of
> snow.
>
> TCB
>
> "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com> wrote:
>>> And the O'Hare person. I never heard of her before you mentioned her
>>> name
>>> and for some reason because she was an awful person you think that
>>> anyone
>>> who has any of the same beliefs must also be awful and bitter and likely
>>> to be murdered. That makes no sense.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Thad.......I met her on a few occasions back in the 70's when I was a
>>student at University of Texas and afterward. I don't know if she was
>>awful
>
>>because she was an atheist, or because she was an antheist who felt like
> she
>>was being oppressed by the religious right (and there isn't much of that
> in
>>Austin..it's always been a liberal minded place for the most
>>part).........or because she was just mean......but she was one of the
>>most
>
>>singularly unpleasant people I've ever had the misfortune to meet, more
>
>>then once.........so from my perspective, this extreme unpleasantness
>>seems
>
>>to have been consistent thing. I never said anything to provoke this
>>person.
>
>>As for her being murdered, if one subscribes to the theory that people
>>attract to themselves those who are of of like mind, then she certainly
>
>>could have found herself up to her neck in a swirling brew of negative
>>personalities.
>>
>>Glad you're having good experiences in Thailand. It's springtime here,
>
>>skunk season has arrived, the hounds are estatic and I am a bit fatigued
> due
>>to having to do the "skunkcheck" for these guys prior to letting them
>>outside at night when they alert that the property perimeters have been
>
>>violated by some creature that has come out of hibernation and is foraging
>
>>for food. Unsupervised boundary patrols by the dogs can be disastrous at
>
>>this time of year.
>>
>>Now back to the seach for giant, combative cephalopods......
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>
>
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