Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Neil you are dead on absolutely right
| Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74218] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 15:48  |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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"1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
-6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
hot anyway."
I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is doing
behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
is getting summed at the master.
This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know about.
It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other systems.
Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
there!
Chuck
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74221 is a reply to message #74218] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 16:05  |
animix
Messages: 356
Registered: September 2006
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Senior Member |
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Chuck,
I've got an SPL meter here in my studio. I could play back a track in cubase
SX at unity, then route it to Paris with the fader set at unity. If this is
what is happening the SPL level should drop by 20+ dB........right? Have you
ever done this?
DJ
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:45340c39$1@linux...
>
> "1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
> you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
> -6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
> add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
> blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
> hot anyway."
>
> I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
doing
> behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
> the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>
> The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
> is getting summed at the master.
>
> This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
about.
> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>
> You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other
systems.
> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
> there!
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74227 is a reply to message #74221] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 16:51 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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What Chuck said was that it is pumped back up before you
hear it. There will be no level difference since it is back to normal
by the time you hear it. It's quite possible that Paris works its
magic in the mix bus at -20, (where you can't get overs!) then
brings it back to 0 in a predictable and safe manner.
Chuck?
DC
"DJ" <notachance@net.net> wrote:
>Chuck,
>
>I've got an SPL meter here in my studio. I could play back a track in cubase
>SX at unity, then route it to Paris with the fader set at unity. If this
is
>what is happening the SPL level should drop by 20+ dB........right? Have
you
>ever done this?
>
>DJ
>
>
>
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:45340c39$1@linux...
>>
>> "1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
>> you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
>> -6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
>> add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
>> blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
>> hot anyway."
>>
>> I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
>doing
>> behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
>> the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>>
>> The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
>> is getting summed at the master.
>>
>> This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
>about.
>> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>>
>> You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other
>systems.
>> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
>> there!
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74228 is a reply to message #74218] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 17:11 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>"1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
>you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
>-6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
>add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
>blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
>hot anyway."
>
>I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is doing
>behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
>the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>
>The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
>is getting summed at the master.
>
>This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
about.
> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
Chuck, I for one missed seeing that post you mention... so
if we drop all our Cubase Channels down to -20 & pretend that's
zero, and then insert a volume maximizer with the threshhold
set at -20 db across the mix buss, you think we'd hear
something approximating the "Paris Sound"?
Neil
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74229 is a reply to message #74218] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 17:58 |
audioguy_editout_
Messages: 249
Registered: December 2005
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Senior Member |
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Well, if you think about it, that is exactly what most
analog consoles do... The channels fader output is fed
through resistors before being summed with the other
channels. The sumed signal is then passed through a buffer
amp (or high turns ratio transformer in older consoles) to
get the level back.
Maybe the Paris sound is more closely related to SSC's old
Midas than we know! ;-) Wonder what became of that desk
anyway....
David.
chuck duffy wrote:
> "1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
> you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
> -6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
> add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
> blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
> hot anyway."
>
> I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is doing
> behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
> the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>
> The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
> is getting summed at the master.
>
> This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know about.
> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>
> You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other systems.
> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
> there!
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74238 is a reply to message #74229] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 19:14 |
animix
Messages: 356
Registered: September 2006
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Senior Member |
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It was a custom made Helios.......and I wonder what happened to it too.
;o)
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4534287d@linux...
> Well, if you think about it, that is exactly what most
> analog consoles do... The channels fader output is fed
> through resistors before being summed with the other
> channels. The sumed signal is then passed through a buffer
> amp (or high turns ratio transformer in older consoles) to
> get the level back.
>
> Maybe the Paris sound is more closely related to SSC's old
> Midas than we know! ;-) Wonder what became of that desk
> anyway....
>
> David.
>
> chuck duffy wrote:
> > "1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
> > you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
> > -6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
> > add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
> > blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
> > hot anyway."
> >
> > I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
doing
> > behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and
boosting
> > the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
> >
> > The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not*
what
> > is getting summed at the master.
> >
> > This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
about.
> > It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
> >
> > You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other
systems.
> > Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
> > there!
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> >
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74239 is a reply to message #74229] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 19:23 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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All the guys who worked on paris were musicians. I think they approached
headroom in a daw like headroom in a console. I think what you are saying
is exactly what they did.
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Well, if you think about it, that is exactly what most
>analog consoles do... The channels fader output is fed
>through resistors before being summed with the other
>channels. The sumed signal is then passed through a buffer
>amp (or high turns ratio transformer in older consoles) to
>get the level back.
>
>Maybe the Paris sound is more closely related to SSC's old
>Midas than we know! ;-) Wonder what became of that desk
>anyway....
>
>David.
>
>chuck duffy wrote:
>> "1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
>> you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
>> -6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
>> add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
>> blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
>> hot anyway."
>>
>> I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
doing
>> behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
>> the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>>
>> The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
>> is getting summed at the master.
>>
>> This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
about.
>> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>>
>> You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other systems.
>> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
>> there!
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74245 is a reply to message #74239] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 20:01 |
audioguy_editout_
Messages: 249
Registered: December 2005
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Senior Member |
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OK, so, following that logic... We create a mix with lots of
stems in Cubase/Nuendo using groups, and attenuate the stem
groups by 20dB. Then all the group bus' would be assigned
to a single stereo master. Increase the gain at the stereo
master till we get decent levels at the 2 bus.
Yo, DJ, got a minute??? ;-)
David.
chuck duffy wrote:
> All the guys who worked on paris were musicians. I think they approached
> headroom in a daw like headroom in a console. I think what you are saying
> is exactly what they did.
>
> "Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>Well, if you think about it, that is exactly what most
>>analog consoles do... The channels fader output is fed
>>through resistors before being summed with the other
>>channels. The sumed signal is then passed through a buffer
>>amp (or high turns ratio transformer in older consoles) to
>>get the level back.
>>
>>Maybe the Paris sound is more closely related to SSC's old
>>Midas than we know! ;-) Wonder what became of that desk
>>anyway....
>>
>>David.
>>
>>chuck duffy wrote:
>>
>>>"1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
>>>you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
>>>-6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
>>>add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
>>>blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
>>>hot anyway."
>>>
>>>I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
>
> doing
>
>>>behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
>>>the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>>>
>>>The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
>>>is getting summed at the master.
>>>
>>>This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
>
> about.
>
>>> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>>>
>>>You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other systems.
>>> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and boost
>>>there!
>>>
>>>Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74248 is a reply to message #74245] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 20:22 |
animix
Messages: 356
Registered: September 2006
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Senior Member |
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I've been reading this. I've been in the CR rebuilding the Paris rig
tonight. It's been a struggle. I did find one serious "gotcha" that may have
been causing the major instability problems between Paris and Cubase though.
It seems that a Belkin hub on the cubase machine was evilevilevil. I had no
idea, but losing it has changed my whole world view. I've got to take a
break and things aren't quite to the point where I can try this right now,
but you can be sure I'm going to. I'm wondering though if the master bus
will have the headroom to get thei *decent level*. Probably so and if not,
this is certainly a way to try out some different plugins to see wich ones
have the best mojo.
cool thread mon!!! Reverse engineering by ear.
;o)
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:45344572$1@linux...
> OK, so, following that logic... We create a mix with lots of
> stems in Cubase/Nuendo using groups, and attenuate the stem
> groups by 20dB. Then all the group bus' would be assigned
> to a single stereo master. Increase the gain at the stereo
> master till we get decent levels at the 2 bus.
>
> Yo, DJ, got a minute??? ;-)
>
> David.
>
> chuck duffy wrote:
>
> > All the guys who worked on paris were musicians. I think they
approached
> > headroom in a daw like headroom in a console. I think what you are
saying
> > is exactly what they did.
> >
> > "Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>Well, if you think about it, that is exactly what most
> >>analog consoles do... The channels fader output is fed
> >>through resistors before being summed with the other
> >>channels. The sumed signal is then passed through a buffer
> >>amp (or high turns ratio transformer in older consoles) to
> >>get the level back.
> >>
> >>Maybe the Paris sound is more closely related to SSC's old
> >>Midas than we know! ;-) Wonder what became of that desk
> >>anyway....
> >>
> >>David.
> >>
> >>chuck duffy wrote:
> >>
> >>>"1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
> >>>you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
> >>>-6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
> >>>add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
> >>>blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
> >>>hot anyway."
> >>>
> >>>I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is
> >
> > doing
> >
> >>>behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and
boosting
> >>>the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
> >>>
> >>>The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not*
what
> >>>is getting summed at the master.
> >>>
> >>>This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
> >
> > about.
> >
> >>> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
> >>>
> >>>You can't, and don't need to push the individual channels in other
systems.
> >>> Thad's advice was good too, put a brickwall across the master and
boost
> >>>there!
> >>>
> >>>Chuck
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74257 is a reply to message #74253] |
Mon, 16 October 2006 23:14 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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fyi....by far the best sounding limiter to control the last stage of the
master bus is Spectraphy: http://www.crysonic.com/spectraphy.html
Still best to control most of the gain at the track level, or as you guys
are suggesting, groups, but for that last couple of dB, and for preventing
clipping in a musical way, Spectraphy does a great job. I've tried more
limiters than I can count and, even with minimal limiting, none maintain
musicality and smoothness of the mix the way this one does. ymmv, but it
works great for my approach to mixing itb.
Regards,
Dedric
On 10/16/06 10:49 PM, in article 45345ec4@linux, "Dave(EK Sound)"
<audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
> That was my basic thinking... use processing inserted on the
> 2 bus master to recoup the gain.
>
> David.
>
> DJ wrote:
>
>> I've been reading this. I've been in the CR rebuilding the Paris rig
>> tonight. It's been a struggle. I did find one serious "gotcha" that may have
>> been causing the major instability problems between Paris and Cubase though.
>> It seems that a Belkin hub on the cubase machine was evilevilevil. I had no
>> idea, but losing it has changed my whole world view. I've got to take a
>> break and things aren't quite to the point where I can try this right now,
>> but you can be sure I'm going to. I'm wondering though if the master bus
>> will have the headroom to get thei *decent level*. Probably so and if not,
>> this is certainly a way to try out some different plugins to see wich ones
>> have the best mojo.
>>
>> cool thread mon!!! Reverse engineering by ear.
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>>
>>
>> "Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:45344572$1@linux...
>>
>>> OK, so, following that logic... We create a mix with lots of
>>> stems in Cubase/Nuendo using groups, and attenuate the stem
>>> groups by 20dB. Then all the group bus' would be assigned
>>> to a single stereo master. Increase the gain at the stereo
>>> master till we get decent levels at the 2 bus.
>>>
>>> Yo, DJ, got a minute??? ;-)
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
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| Re: Neil you are dead on absolutely right [message #74285 is a reply to message #74228] |
Tue, 17 October 2006 08:18 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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For me..I have solve my Neundo mixing in the box issue by summing with an
analog mixer..
Also, when working at my buddies studio tih his Yamaha DM2000,
mixing Neundo, Pro Tools is a joy..
yes, I agree with you all, you have to play it very safe to achieve good
results in SX/Nuendo. But, I don;t like to work that way..
So, I sum using a mixer..AND I'm extreemly happy.!! :)
Even just summing 2 channel(master) I can mix in Nuendo like any other DAW
and "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>
>>"1.) Give yourself some headroom... set a default template (if
>>you use them) so that all track channels are at, for example,
>>-6 or so, or simply remember to drop channels levels down as you
>>add them. Groups where you're using EFX on are ok to run at full
>>blast, since you probably won't be sending stuff to them that
>>hot anyway."
>>
>>I guess no one saw my post to DJ the other day, that is what paris is doing
>>behind the scenes. It is dipping individual tracks by 20+ DB and boosting
>>the master by 20+ DB all without you even knowing about it.
>>
>>The individual track meters read the actual level, but that is *not* what
>>is getting summed at the master.
>>
>>This is the only difference I can spot between all other designs I know
>about.
>> It's definitely why paris mixes 'gel' for DJ.
>
>Chuck, I for one missed seeing that post you mention... so
>if we drop all our Cubase Channels down to -20 & pretend that's
>zero, and then insert a volume maximizer with the threshhold
>set at -20 db across the mix buss, you think we'd hear
>something approximating the "Paris Sound"?
>
>Neil
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