Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Lights out, the party's over
| Lights out, the party's over [message #89681] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 07:24  |
Paul Artola
Messages: 161
Registered: November 2005
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Senior Member |
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After nearly 30 years of recording, composing, jamming, and general
noise making, I have finally joined a band that performs before an
audience. We play a typical mix of rock, country, and disco covers to
get a crowd tapping their feet and dancing. Our first gig together
(the others have been a band for a couple of years, but I just joined
them) was this past weekend, playing at a friend's birthday party.
We set up in the backyard and played into the night, but as darkness
approached, it was clear that our few lights were not up to the task.
So, I ask this group what you suggest we do?
There are 6 of us on the stage, and currently, we are doing our own
sound (via Yamaha 01V digital board). We have a pair of Chauvet sound
activated color bank lights and a few metal clip-on lamps, but we
really need more. The singers up front were mostly in the dark, and
the sound activiation algorithms were hard to control.
We won't be playing out enough to justify hiring a lighting tech, and
since we are hauling our own gear and setting it up, anything that is
easy to deal with in that regard is appealing.
Also, we are willing to drop a little money on lights, but I think
keeping a total package in the neighborhood of $1000 is our goal.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Experiences?
Thanks.
- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89683 is a reply to message #89681] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 07:34  |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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This is a great time to buy lighting gear. I'd start by googling "LED PAR."
The latest round of LED lights are bright enough to consider.
Low power consumption means you can have a lot of lights without blowing
breakers or resorting to 220 circuits.
Very low heat output means you won't bake on stage.
DMX control for color changing without gels means more color choices
with fewer lights needed. Program a dynamic show with your DMX
controller and a few LED PAR fixtures.
Long life means you never replace bulbs and you can run them full on for
up to 100,000 hours. (Lessee, four hours per show at N shows per year,
well, you can do the math :^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Paul Artola wrote:
> After nearly 30 years of recording, composing, jamming, and general
> noise making, I have finally joined a band that performs before an
> audience. We play a typical mix of rock, country, and disco covers to
> get a crowd tapping their feet and dancing. Our first gig together
> (the others have been a band for a couple of years, but I just joined
> them) was this past weekend, playing at a friend's birthday party.
>
> We set up in the backyard and played into the night, but as darkness
> approached, it was clear that our few lights were not up to the task.
> So, I ask this group what you suggest we do?
>
> There are 6 of us on the stage, and currently, we are doing our own
> sound (via Yamaha 01V digital board). We have a pair of Chauvet sound
> activated color bank lights and a few metal clip-on lamps, but we
> really need more. The singers up front were mostly in the dark, and
> the sound activiation algorithms were hard to control.
>
> We won't be playing out enough to justify hiring a lighting tech, and
> since we are hauling our own gear and setting it up, anything that is
> easy to deal with in that regard is appealing.
>
> Also, we are willing to drop a little money on lights, but I think
> keeping a total package in the neighborhood of $1000 is our goal.
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Experiences?
>
> Thanks.
>
> - Paul Artola
> Ellicott City, Maryland
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89692 is a reply to message #89681] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 10:32 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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lighting is not easy to setup/move, or particularly cheap but you have a lot
of options these days. LED's, PAR cans, specialty, scanners, moving head...
are you going to automate it? You can tie a sequencer and build
files/presets in a DMX controller, or if you can find them still there are
MIDI to A/C controller packs out there still, probably on ebay I'd bet.
How do you intend to control?
AA
"Paul Artola" <artola@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:amsfe3phjqi9thkfbsjfti811he1upbj8j@4ax.com...
> After nearly 30 years of recording, composing, jamming, and general
> noise making, I have finally joined a band that performs before an
> audience. We play a typical mix of rock, country, and disco covers to
> get a crowd tapping their feet and dancing. Our first gig together
> (the others have been a band for a couple of years, but I just joined
> them) was this past weekend, playing at a friend's birthday party.
>
> We set up in the backyard and played into the night, but as darkness
> approached, it was clear that our few lights were not up to the task.
> So, I ask this group what you suggest we do?
>
> There are 6 of us on the stage, and currently, we are doing our own
> sound (via Yamaha 01V digital board). We have a pair of Chauvet sound
> activated color bank lights and a few metal clip-on lamps, but we
> really need more. The singers up front were mostly in the dark, and
> the sound activiation algorithms were hard to control.
>
> We won't be playing out enough to justify hiring a lighting tech, and
> since we are hauling our own gear and setting it up, anything that is
> easy to deal with in that regard is appealing.
>
> Also, we are willing to drop a little money on lights, but I think
> keeping a total package in the neighborhood of $1000 is our goal.
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Experiences?
>
> Thanks.
>
> - Paul Artola
> Ellicott City, Maryland
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89745 is a reply to message #89692] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 21:45 |
Paul Artola
Messages: 161
Registered: November 2005
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Senior Member |
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There is an outside chance we could have a sound/light person, but
otherwise control will be provided by one of us on stage.
- Paul
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:32:50 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
<know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>lighting is not easy to setup/move, or particularly cheap but you have a lot
>of options these days. LED's, PAR cans, specialty, scanners, moving head...
>are you going to automate it? You can tie a sequencer and build
>files/presets in a DMX controller, or if you can find them still there are
>MIDI to A/C controller packs out there still, probably on ebay I'd bet.
>
>How do you intend to control?
>
>AA
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89773 is a reply to message #89745] |
Thu, 13 September 2007 05:45 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Budget?
AA
"Paul Artola" <artola@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:n0ghe39u1n0bjt8o46dp4pebh6jpoh3jqs@4ax.com...
> There is an outside chance we could have a sound/light person, but
> otherwise control will be provided by one of us on stage.
>
> - Paul
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:32:50 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>>lighting is not easy to setup/move, or particularly cheap but you have a
>>lot
>>of options these days. LED's, PAR cans, specialty, scanners, moving
>>head...
>>are you going to automate it? You can tie a sequencer and build
>>files/presets in a DMX controller, or if you can find them still there are
>>MIDI to A/C controller packs out there still, probably on ebay I'd bet.
>>
>>How do you intend to control?
>>
>>AA
>
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89806 is a reply to message #89778] |
Fri, 14 September 2007 02:30 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Behringer Eurolight http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHLC2412 Once you
buy it, you'll need to also build/buy a XLR plug to 5 pin DIN pigtail.. do a
pin for pin pigtail off Behr's 5 pin DIN. Radio Shack probably has what you
need. Or you can do what I did and skip the pigtail,yank the dumb idea 5
pin, and drop in a 3 pin XLR. It's a DMX512 protocol, just they decided on a
non-standard plug. Understand of course your warranty goes in the crapper
the moment you 'modify' the unit.
(8x) Mini PAR 16 cans
http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~18683~itemNumber~[item_numb er]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
Put the ceramic base Halogen track lighting in them @ 50w, they'll blow a
hot hole in you on a typical club size stage...this is a pretty directional
setup:)
(2x) DMX dimmer packs
http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~DMX%20pac k~eqint_KeyIDdata~39872~itemNumber~DMX-4%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~ca tgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
(2x) stands/bars
http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~7294~itemNumber~[item_numbe r]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
Get the plastic/neoprene O Ring mounts to fit the above pole (8x). Probably
should pick up some good guage A/C extensions as well. Get XLR cable for
your DMX sends. I've used mic cable before, but don't use the cheap stuff or
it could bleed into your audio.
You'll need to get some gels also... avoid darker colors unless you plan to
double up the PAR16/halogens to offset coverage. Set up/connect all the
lights. Build your presets in the Eurolight. Once you decide to go with self
automations or a guy, you can decide if you need to call up the presets from
the front panel or pick up a foot MIDI controller or let your dude run
presets/faders.
Nice thing about this set up is if you have DMX send channels left, you can
add lights later and beyond that get a second 2412 and cascade them. If
you're not up on DMX, google DMX512 protocols.
FYI.. at teardown....the general rule is do NOT fool with the lights until
they've cooled or you'll be buying a lot of bulbs. The Halogens take it
pretty well but specialty lighting absolutely does not, and those are pricey
bulbs.
AA
"Paul Artola" <artola@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:69gie3tgcgempn2aflfuuqr695sr4bmcd1@4ax.com...
> About $1000?
>
> - Paul
>
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:45:31 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>>Budget?
>>
>>AA
>
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89811 is a reply to message #89806] |
Fri, 14 September 2007 06:56 |
Paul Artola
Messages: 161
Registered: November 2005
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Senior Member |
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Aaron -
Thanks for the recommendations. I will look into all this.
- Paul
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:30:37 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
<know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Behringer Eurolight http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHLC2412 Once you
>buy it, you'll need to also build/buy a XLR plug to 5 pin DIN pigtail.. do a
>pin for pin pigtail off Behr's 5 pin DIN. Radio Shack probably has what you
>need. Or you can do what I did and skip the pigtail,yank the dumb idea 5
>pin, and drop in a 3 pin XLR. It's a DMX512 protocol, just they decided on a
>non-standard plug. Understand of course your warranty goes in the crapper
>the moment you 'modify' the unit.
>
> (8x) Mini PAR 16 cans
>http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~18683~itemNumber~[item_numb er]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>Put the ceramic base Halogen track lighting in them @ 50w, they'll blow a
>hot hole in you on a typical club size stage...this is a pretty directional
>setup:)
>
> (2x) DMX dimmer packs
> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~DMX%20pac k~eqint_KeyIDdata~39872~itemNumber~DMX-4%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~ca tgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>
> (2x) stands/bars
>http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~7294~itemNumber~[item_numbe r]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>
>Get the plastic/neoprene O Ring mounts to fit the above pole (8x). Probably
>should pick up some good guage A/C extensions as well. Get XLR cable for
>your DMX sends. I've used mic cable before, but don't use the cheap stuff or
>it could bleed into your audio.
>
>You'll need to get some gels also... avoid darker colors unless you plan to
>double up the PAR16/halogens to offset coverage. Set up/connect all the
>lights. Build your presets in the Eurolight. Once you decide to go with self
>automations or a guy, you can decide if you need to call up the presets from
>the front panel or pick up a foot MIDI controller or let your dude run
>presets/faders.
>
>Nice thing about this set up is if you have DMX send channels left, you can
>add lights later and beyond that get a second 2412 and cascade them. If
>you're not up on DMX, google DMX512 protocols.
>
>FYI.. at teardown....the general rule is do NOT fool with the lights until
>they've cooled or you'll be buying a lot of bulbs. The Halogens take it
>pretty well but specialty lighting absolutely does not, and those are pricey
>bulbs.
>
>AA
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89824 is a reply to message #89811] |
Fri, 14 September 2007 13:38 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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I mentioned this before, but for about the same price you could get get
a two or three light LED PAR 64 color changing system that you could
grow from there as needed. Or you could get more LED lights if you go
with smaller fixtures (I'm leaning toward newer PAR 64 LED models for
brightness).
With LED lighting you don't need dimmer packs.
You don't have to worry about waiting for hot lights to cool down after
the show, they don't get hot.
You don't have to replace bulbs, ever.
You'll never need gels.
All of which potentially saves money and time.
LED lights won't heat up the stage.
You can change the color of each light dynamically during the show, so
you can choose from wider variety of colors while using fewer lights. If
you like strobe light effects, any LED light can strobe in any color.
An LED system is unlikely to blow any breakers. And setup is probably
quicker.
If you have any stores near you that carry both LED and older tech, it'd
be worth comparing.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Paul Artola wrote:
> Aaron -
>
> Thanks for the recommendations. I will look into all this.
>
> - Paul
>
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:30:37 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>> Behringer Eurolight http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHLC2412 Once you
>> buy it, you'll need to also build/buy a XLR plug to 5 pin DIN pigtail.. do a
>> pin for pin pigtail off Behr's 5 pin DIN. Radio Shack probably has what you
>> need. Or you can do what I did and skip the pigtail,yank the dumb idea 5
>> pin, and drop in a 3 pin XLR. It's a DMX512 protocol, just they decided on a
>> non-standard plug. Understand of course your warranty goes in the crapper
>> the moment you 'modify' the unit.
>>
>> (8x) Mini PAR 16 cans
>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~18683~itemNumber~[item_numb er]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>> Put the ceramic base Halogen track lighting in them @ 50w, they'll blow a
>> hot hole in you on a typical club size stage...this is a pretty directional
>> setup:)
>>
>> (2x) DMX dimmer packs
>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~DMX%20pac k~eqint_KeyIDdata~39872~itemNumber~DMX-4%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~ca tgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>
>> (2x) stands/bars
>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~7294~itemNumber~[item_numbe r]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>
>> Get the plastic/neoprene O Ring mounts to fit the above pole (8x). Probably
>> should pick up some good guage A/C extensions as well. Get XLR cable for
>> your DMX sends. I've used mic cable before, but don't use the cheap stuff or
>> it could bleed into your audio.
>>
>> You'll need to get some gels also... avoid darker colors unless you plan to
>> double up the PAR16/halogens to offset coverage. Set up/connect all the
>> lights. Build your presets in the Eurolight. Once you decide to go with self
>> automations or a guy, you can decide if you need to call up the presets from
>> the front panel or pick up a foot MIDI controller or let your dude run
>> presets/faders.
>>
>> Nice thing about this set up is if you have DMX send channels left, you can
>> add lights later and beyond that get a second 2412 and cascade them. If
>> you're not up on DMX, google DMX512 protocols.
>>
>> FYI.. at teardown....the general rule is do NOT fool with the lights until
>> they've cooled or you'll be buying a lot of bulbs. The Halogens take it
>> pretty well but specialty lighting absolutely does not, and those are pricey
>> bulbs.
>>
>> AA
>
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89836 is a reply to message #89824] |
Fri, 14 September 2007 22:15 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
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I did some quick compares on LED vs incandecent and the LED's are
softer/fuzzier. Nothing super scientific mind you, but I like not only the
definition of the incan/halo lights, but also the directional properties...
they look better under a fog machine that way.
LEDs would be good fill lighting I'd think, but not for
directional/spotting/highlighting.
AA
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46eaf305$1@linux...
>
> I mentioned this before, but for about the same price you could get get a
> two or three light LED PAR 64 color changing system that you could grow
> from there as needed. Or you could get more LED lights if you go with
> smaller fixtures (I'm leaning toward newer PAR 64 LED models for
> brightness).
>
> With LED lighting you don't need dimmer packs.
>
> You don't have to worry about waiting for hot lights to cool down after
> the show, they don't get hot.
>
> You don't have to replace bulbs, ever.
>
> You'll never need gels.
>
> All of which potentially saves money and time.
>
> LED lights won't heat up the stage.
>
> You can change the color of each light dynamically during the show, so you
> can choose from wider variety of colors while using fewer lights. If you
> like strobe light effects, any LED light can strobe in any color.
>
> An LED system is unlikely to blow any breakers. And setup is probably
> quicker.
>
> If you have any stores near you that carry both LED and older tech, it'd
> be worth comparing.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>
>
> Paul Artola wrote:
>> Aaron -
>>
>> Thanks for the recommendations. I will look into all this. - Paul
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:30:37 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
>> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>
>>> Behringer Eurolight http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHLC2412 Once
>>> you buy it, you'll need to also build/buy a XLR plug to 5 pin DIN
>>> pigtail.. do a pin for pin pigtail off Behr's 5 pin DIN. Radio Shack
>>> probably has what you need. Or you can do what I did and skip the
>>> pigtail,yank the dumb idea 5 pin, and drop in a 3 pin XLR. It's a DMX512
>>> protocol, just they decided on a non-standard plug. Understand of course
>>> your warranty goes in the crapper the moment you 'modify' the unit.
>>>
>>> (8x) Mini PAR 16 cans
>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~18683~itemNumber~[item_numb er]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>> Put the ceramic base Halogen track lighting in them @ 50w, they'll blow
>>> a hot hole in you on a typical club size stage...this is a pretty
>>> directional setup:)
>>>
>>> (2x) DMX dimmer packs
>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~DMX%20pac k~eqint_KeyIDdata~39872~itemNumber~DMX-4%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~ca tgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>>
>>> (2x) stands/bars
>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~7294~itemNumber~[item_numbe r]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>>
>>> Get the plastic/neoprene O Ring mounts to fit the above pole (8x).
>>> Probably should pick up some good guage A/C extensions as well. Get XLR
>>> cable for your DMX sends. I've used mic cable before, but don't use the
>>> cheap stuff or it could bleed into your audio.
>>>
>>> You'll need to get some gels also... avoid darker colors unless you plan
>>> to double up the PAR16/halogens to offset coverage. Set up/connect all
>>> the lights. Build your presets in the Eurolight. Once you decide to go
>>> with self automations or a guy, you can decide if you need to call up
>>> the presets from the front panel or pick up a foot MIDI controller or
>>> let your dude run presets/faders.
>>>
>>> Nice thing about this set up is if you have DMX send channels left, you
>>> can add lights later and beyond that get a second 2412 and cascade them.
>>> If you're not up on DMX, google DMX512 protocols.
>>>
>>> FYI.. at teardown....the general rule is do NOT fool with the lights
>>> until they've cooled or you'll be buying a lot of bulbs. The Halogens
>>> take it pretty well but specialty lighting absolutely does not, and
>>> those are pricey bulbs.
>>>
>>> AA
>>
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #89846 is a reply to message #89836] |
Sat, 15 September 2007 00:10 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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Aaron Allen wrote:
> I did some quick compares on LED vs incandecent and the LED's are
> softer/fuzzier. Nothing super scientific mind you, but I like not only the
> definition of the incan/halo lights, but also the directional properties...
> they look better under a fog machine that way.
> LEDs would be good fill lighting I'd think, but not for
> directional/spotting/highlighting.
Fair enough. You're right that using LEDs for stage wash is a common
application. Depending on the band and the show requirements, that might
be enough.
But I wouldn't rule out LEDs for close-in front spots, and there are LED
specialty lights available for other applications.
I've read comments from several bands who have gone all LED and are
happy with the results. I've seen some LED comparison images that hold
up well to old-style PAR lighting.
Here's my direct experience: We have a really nice small club in Denver
with all LED lighting. If you go to my bands page you can see a shot:
http://www.JamieKrutz.com/jbands.html
Look for the one that's labeled: "Ten Tiers at the Soiled Dove
Underground, Denver." No fog, but the lighting worked well and it wasn't
hot on stage even with a fair number of lights mounted fairly close in
(it was actually a bit brighter than it looks in the pic). They have big
bands there (lots of people on stage) and they have plenty of fixtures
to cover those shows. I was impressed enough with their system to add
LED lighting to my buy list.
Those are American DJ PAR 64 LED cans. That company has since come out
with their upgraded PAR 64 PRO cans which are brighter. Other suppliers
on Ebay have similar 10mm LED models for a bit less $.
Fixtures with the larger Luxeon 1 and 3 watt LEDs are also appearing for
more $$$. There are even LED kits to upgrade old PAR cans to LED.
BTW, which LED lights did you test? And how long ago?
From what I've seen so far, brightness/power varies by the model. Some
are wide and some are narrow. Some have more defined edges than others.
You can add diffusion filters to narrow ones if you need more of a wash.
There are LED rain lights and FX lights that do tight beams. A lot of
the better lights have been introduced in the last year or so, some in
the last few months.
I haven't gotten any LED lights yet but am on the edge of getting two or
three modest ones for my solo show - for small gigs where no lighting is
provided.
One reservation is that the white from an RGB LED light can be a bit
blueish, although American DJ has an all white model (non color
changing) that might get around that for a front light. There's been
talk of upcoming fixtures with RGBY - adding some yellow LEDs to warm up
the output. Having said that, the white from the RGB LED lights at the
Dove seemed OK.
Older lights with gels work fine, though they are limited to a smaller
color palette, put out way more heat, need dimmer packs, and have the
additional long term costs of replacing bulbs and gels, and eating
significantly more electricity.
It seems to me that LEDs are the future of stage lighting. They offer a
lot of advantages: low power consumption, low heat output, color
changing flexibility, simple setup, direct DMX control w/o dimmer packs,
no gel costs, no bulb replacement costs, and the possibility of having
fewer fixtures that do more. In the last year or so they've started
becoming bright enough to consider. It's still a bit cutting edge but I
like to geek out on new tech, so these are exciting times...
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
> AA
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46eaf305$1@linux...
>> I mentioned this before, but for about the same price you could get get a
>> two or three light LED PAR 64 color changing system that you could grow
>> from there as needed. Or you could get more LED lights if you go with
>> smaller fixtures (I'm leaning toward newer PAR 64 LED models for
>> brightness).
>>
>> With LED lighting you don't need dimmer packs.
>>
>> You don't have to worry about waiting for hot lights to cool down after
>> the show, they don't get hot.
>>
>> You don't have to replace bulbs, ever.
>>
>> You'll never need gels.
>>
>> All of which potentially saves money and time.
>>
>> LED lights won't heat up the stage.
>>
>> You can change the color of each light dynamically during the show, so you
>> can choose from wider variety of colors while using fewer lights. If you
>> like strobe light effects, any LED light can strobe in any color.
>>
>> An LED system is unlikely to blow any breakers. And setup is probably
>> quicker.
>>
>> If you have any stores near you that carry both LED and older tech, it'd
>> be worth comparing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Artola wrote:
>>> Aaron -
>>>
>>> Thanks for the recommendations. I will look into all this. - Paul
>>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:30:37 -0500, "Aaron Allen"
>>> <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Behringer Eurolight http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHLC2412 Once
>>>> you buy it, you'll need to also build/buy a XLR plug to 5 pin DIN
>>>> pigtail.. do a pin for pin pigtail off Behr's 5 pin DIN. Radio Shack
>>>> probably has what you need. Or you can do what I did and skip the
>>>> pigtail,yank the dumb idea 5 pin, and drop in a 3 pin XLR. It's a DMX512
>>>> protocol, just they decided on a non-standard plug. Understand of course
>>>> your warranty goes in the crapper the moment you 'modify' the unit.
>>>>
>>>> (8x) Mini PAR 16 cans
>>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~18683~itemNumber~[item_numb er]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>>> Put the ceramic base Halogen track lighting in them @ 50w, they'll blow
>>>> a hot hole in you on a typical club size stage...this is a pretty
>>>> directional setup:)
>>>>
>>>> (2x) DMX dimmer packs
>>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~DMX%20pac k~eqint_KeyIDdata~39872~itemNumber~DMX-4%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~ca tgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>>>
>>>> (2x) stands/bars
>>>> http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl~waGroup1datarq~ [waGroup1datarq]~eqint_KeyIDdata~7294~itemNumber~[item_numbe r]~UID~2007091402084430~disp_IMG~Y~catgroup~%5BcatGroup%5D
>>>>
>>>> Get the plastic/neoprene O Ring mounts to fit the above pole (8x).
>>>> Probably should pick up some good guage A/C extensions as well. Get XLR
>>>> cable for your DMX sends. I've used mic cable before, but don't use the
>>>> cheap stuff or it could bleed into your audio.
>>>>
>>>> You'll need to get some gels also... avoid darker colors unless you plan
>>>> to double up the PAR16/halogens to offset coverage. Set up/connect all
>>>> the lights. Build your presets in the Eurolight. Once you decide to go
>>>> with self automations or a guy, you can decide if you need to call up
>>>> the presets from the front panel or pick up a foot MIDI controller or
>>>> let your dude run presets/faders.
>>>>
>>>> Nice thing about this set up is if you have DMX send channels left, you
>>>> can add lights later and beyond that get a second 2412 and cascade them.
>>>> If you're not up on DMX, google DMX512 protocols.
>>>>
>>>> FYI.. at teardown....the general rule is do NOT fool with the lights
>>>> until they've cooled or you'll be buying a lot of bulbs. The Halogens
>>>> take it pretty well but specialty lighting absolutely does not, and
>>>> those are pricey bulbs.
>>>>
>>>> AA
>
>
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #90564 is a reply to message #89846] |
Tue, 25 September 2007 20:39 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com>
Newsgroups: IDEA.EMUEnsoniqPARIS
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: Lights out, the party's over
>
> Those are American DJ PAR 64 LED cans. That company has since come out
> with their upgraded PAR 64 PRO cans which are brighter. Other suppliers on
> Ebay have similar 10mm LED models for a bit less $.
> BTW, which LED lights did you test? And how long ago?
These are the ones (ADJ's) I looked at in the local GC I believe.. no name
present I could see.... probably a month or less ago again. Found them to be
absolutely not adequate for our stage show, but the current band uses a
pretty large production scale for local clubbing.
>
> Fixtures with the larger Luxeon 1 and 3 watt LEDs are also appearing for
> more $$$. There are even LED kits to upgrade old PAR cans to LED.
>
This might be more to my liking, but probably only for washing from what
I've seen.
>
> From what I've seen so far, brightness/power varies by the model. Some are
> wide and some are narrow. Some have more defined edges than others. You
> can add diffusion filters to narrow ones if you need more of a wash. There
> are LED rain lights and FX lights that do tight beams. A lot of the better
> lights have been introduced in the last year or so, some in the last few
> months.
>
I'd be interested to see specs/pics/demo the narrow LEDs. I know that LED's
are capable of better than what I saw, being a geek I sub'd to a magazine
strictly on LED tech and it was pretty fascinating stuff.
> Older lights with gels work fine, though they are limited to a smaller
> color palette, put out way more heat, need dimmer packs, and have the
> additional long term costs of replacing bulbs and gels, and eating
> significantly more electricity.
Couldn't the same be said of tube amps, basically?
>
> It seems to me that LEDs are the future of stage lighting. They offer a
> lot of advantages: low power consumption, low heat output, color changing
> flexibility, simple setup, direct DMX control w/o dimmer packs, no gel
> costs, no bulb replacement costs, and the possibility of having fewer
> fixtures that do more. In the last year or so they've started becoming
> bright enough to consider. It's still a bit cutting edge but I like to
> geek out on new tech, so these are exciting times...
Much as I love geekin' out as well, I don't think LED's are quite the future
of professional band lighting -
however they'll have a place in the future almost certainly. They're not
bright enough and not directional enough. Mirror/reflective surfaces could
probably fix the directional problem, and en mass maybe the bright enough. I
love the weight thing, and built in DMX but once DMX is dead the fixture is
useless... not so with my incan/halo stuff. Unfortunately, I can already see
where DMX is a dying spec and running out of wind.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
Cheers 'n' Good Stuff
AA
|
|
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #90574 is a reply to message #90564] |
Wed, 26 September 2007 00:14 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron Allen wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com>
> Newsgroups: IDEA.EMUEnsoniqPARIS
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Lights out, the party's over
>> Those are American DJ PAR 64 LED cans. That company has since come out
>> with their upgraded PAR 64 PRO cans which are brighter. Other suppliers on
>> Ebay have similar 10mm LED models for a bit less $.
>> BTW, which LED lights did you test? And how long ago?
>
> These are the ones (ADJ's) I looked at in the local GC I believe.. no name
> present I could see.... probably a month or less ago again. Found them to be
> absolutely not adequate for our stage show, but the current band uses a
> pretty large production scale for local clubbing.
I don't know if GC carries the newer, brighter version yet. It would be
labelled "American DJ PAR 64 PRO."
>> Fixtures with the larger Luxeon 1 and 3 watt LEDs are also appearing for
>> more $$$. There are even LED kits to upgrade old PAR cans to LED.
>>
>
> This might be more to my liking, but probably only for washing from what
> I've seen.
Yeah, not too good for drying, due to low heat output. ;^)
>> From what I've seen so far, brightness/power varies by the model. Some are
>> wide and some are narrow. Some have more defined edges than others. You
>> can add diffusion filters to narrow ones if you need more of a wash. There
>> are LED rain lights and FX lights that do tight beams. A lot of the better
>> lights have been introduced in the last year or so, some in the last few
>> months.
>>
> I'd be interested to see specs/pics/demo the narrow LEDs. I know that LED's
> are capable of better than what I saw, being a geek I sub'd to a magazine
> strictly on LED tech and it was pretty fascinating stuff.
Cool! LED tech seems to be moving forward relatively quickly.
>> Older lights with gels work fine, though they are limited to a smaller
>> color palette, put out way more heat, need dimmer packs, and have the
>> additional long term costs of replacing bulbs and gels, and eating
>> significantly more electricity.
>
> Couldn't the same be said of tube amps, basically?
Sure. FWIW, I don't gig with my tube rig any more.
>> It seems to me that LEDs are the future of stage lighting. They offer a
>> lot of advantages: low power consumption, low heat output, color changing
>> flexibility, simple setup, direct DMX control w/o dimmer packs, no gel
>> costs, no bulb replacement costs, and the possibility of having fewer
>> fixtures that do more. In the last year or so they've started becoming
>> bright enough to consider. It's still a bit cutting edge but I like to
>> geek out on new tech, so these are exciting times...
>
> Much as I love geekin' out as well, I don't think LED's are quite the future
> of professional band lighting -
> however they'll have a place in the future almost certainly. They're not
> bright enough and not directional enough.
Of the ones you've seen so far. But there may be others that are. If
not, it may just be a matter of time before what you want in a light is
developed using LEDs.
> Mirror/reflective surfaces could
> probably fix the directional problem, and en mass maybe the bright enough.
The brighter ones are using fewer but higher-power-rated LEDs.
> I
> love the weight thing, and built in DMX but once DMX is dead the fixture is
> useless... not so with my incan/halo stuff. Unfortunately, I can already see
> where DMX is a dying spec and running out of wind.
Tell me more. I thought DMX was pretty entrenched. What do you see
replacing it?
I wouldn't mind having direct MIDI control over lights w/o having to
translate to DMX.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
303/319-9332
>
> Cheers 'n' Good Stuff
> AA
>
>
|
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #90588 is a reply to message #90574] |
Wed, 26 September 2007 06:02 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46fa089d@linux...
> Aaron Allen wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com>
>> Newsgroups: IDEA.EMUEnsoniqPARIS
>> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: Lights out, the party's over
>>> Those are American DJ PAR 64 LED cans. That company has since come out
>>> with their upgraded PAR 64 PRO cans which are brighter. Other suppliers
>>> on Ebay have similar 10mm LED models for a bit less $.
>>> BTW, which LED lights did you test? And how long ago?
>>
>> These are the ones (ADJ's) I looked at in the local GC I believe.. no
>> name
>> present I could see.... probably a month or less ago again. Found them to
>> be
>> absolutely not adequate for our stage show, but the current band uses a
>> pretty large production scale for local clubbing.
>
> I don't know if GC carries the newer, brighter version yet. It would be
> labelled "American DJ PAR 64 PRO."
>
>
>>> Fixtures with the larger Luxeon 1 and 3 watt LEDs are also appearing for
>>> more $$$. There are even LED kits to upgrade old PAR cans to LED.
>>>
>>
>> This might be more to my liking, but probably only for washing from what
>> I've seen.
>
> Yeah, not too good for drying, due to low heat output. ;^)
LOL... no kiddin. Years ago I got a neck full of PAR64's about 5 ft away
from my neck at the Cain's ballroom on a drumming show. I'd like to have
knife sticked the idiot that thought that was a good placement for the wash
lighting.
>>> From what I've seen so far, brightness/power varies by the model. Some
>>> are wide and some are narrow. Some have more defined edges than others.
>>> You can add diffusion filters to narrow ones if you need more of a wash.
>>> There are LED rain lights and FX lights that do tight beams. A lot of
>>> the better lights have been introduced in the last year or so, some in
>>> the last few months.
>>>
>> I'd be interested to see specs/pics/demo the narrow LEDs. I know that
>> LED's
>> are capable of better than what I saw, being a geek I sub'd to a magazine
>> strictly on LED tech and it was pretty fascinating stuff.
>
> Cool! LED tech seems to be moving forward relatively quickly.
>
>
>>> Older lights with gels work fine, though they are limited to a smaller
>>> color palette, put out way more heat, need dimmer packs, and have the
>>> additional long term costs of replacing bulbs and gels, and eating
>>> significantly more electricity.
>>
>> Couldn't the same be said of tube amps, basically?
>
> Sure. FWIW, I don't gig with my tube rig any more.
I can't seem to get away from tubes, but modeling is/has been improving to
great levels. Good thing I don't have a gtr gig right now to have to lug
that stuff around :)
>>> It seems to me that LEDs are the future of stage lighting. They offer a
>>> lot of advantages: low power consumption, low heat output, color
>>> changing flexibility, simple setup, direct DMX control w/o dimmer packs,
>>> no gel costs, no bulb replacement costs, and the possibility of having
>>> fewer fixtures that do more. In the last year or so they've started
>>> becoming bright enough to consider. It's still a bit cutting edge but I
>>> like to geek out on new tech, so these are exciting times...
>>
>> Much as I love geekin' out as well, I don't think LED's are quite the
>> future of professional band lighting -
>> however they'll have a place in the future almost certainly. They're not
>> bright enough and not directional enough.
>
> Of the ones you've seen so far. But there may be others that are. If not,
> it may just be a matter of time before what you want in a light is
> developed using LEDs.
>
>
> > Mirror/reflective surfaces could
>> probably fix the directional problem, and en mass maybe the bright
>> enough.
>
> The brighter ones are using fewer but higher-power-rated LEDs.
>
>
>> I
>> love the weight thing, and built in DMX but once DMX is dead the fixture
>> is
>> useless... not so with my incan/halo stuff. Unfortunately, I can already
>> see
>> where DMX is a dying spec and running out of wind.
>
> Tell me more. I thought DMX was pretty entrenched. What do you see
> replacing it?
Spec-wise? Not built yet to my knowledge but the problem is with the
protocol. 512 channels sounds like a lot until you see the amount fixtures
can swallow up and how DMX DIP's are used. Taking 4 channels per fixture on
the low side is pretty common. Running out used to be unthinkable, but it's
very, very thinkable and the control surfaces get limited. It's going to go
the same way my midi packs went and die like any other spec IMO. They have
one workaround that I've seen by linking to 512 desks together to get 1024
but it's not generic. I forgot who made that conversion option in their
console at the moment, but it was high end... definitely not your typical
club band stuff.
> I wouldn't mind having direct MIDI control over lights w/o having to
> translate to DMX.
I have that, direct midi to light packs, switchable to DMX as well... Adore
them, wish they still made them. :(
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
> 303/319-9332
>
>
>>
>> Cheers 'n' Good Stuff
>> AA
|
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| Re: Lights out, the party's over [message #90601 is a reply to message #90588] |
Wed, 26 September 2007 09:22 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron Allen wrote:
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46fa089d@linux...
>>> I
>>> love the weight thing, and built in DMX but once DMX is dead the fixture
>>> is
>>> useless...
If DMX dies, I predict there will be adapters to any new standard.
People aren't likely to just throw away all the stage lighting that
already exists.
> not so with my incan/halo stuff.
Because it already has an adapter, a big lunky dimmer pack. :^)
And you'll have to replace that adapter, or get an adapter to your adapter.
> Unfortunately, I can already
>>> see
>>> where DMX is a dying spec and running out of wind.
>> Tell me more. I thought DMX was pretty entrenched. What do you see
>> replacing it?
>
> Spec-wise? Not built yet to my knowledge but the problem is with the
> protocol. 512 channels sounds like a lot until you see the amount fixtures
> can swallow up and how DMX DIP's are used. Taking 4 channels per fixture on
> the low side is pretty common. Running out used to be unthinkable, but it's
> very, very thinkable and the control surfaces get limited. It's going to go
> the same way my midi packs went and die like any other spec IMO. They have
> one workaround that I've seen by linking to 512 desks together to get 1024
> but it's not generic. I forgot who made that conversion option in their
> console at the moment, but it was high end... definitely not your typical
> club band stuff.
Sounds like there's clear need for an improved standard to support more
complex lighting situations. If you hear of anything in development, let
us know...
>> I wouldn't mind having direct MIDI control over lights w/o having to
>> translate to DMX.
>
> I have that, direct midi to light packs, switchable to DMX as well... Adore
> them, wish they still made them. :(
That's cool, who made them?
I really like that the LED lights don't need dimmer packs, which means
less stuff to carry and hook up. It'd be handy to have lights that could
accept MIDI directly. They could still use an XLR connector. Switchable
between MIDI and DMX would be great.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
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