Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Copycats; )
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #76990 is a reply to message #76977] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 08:51   |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if MSoft
was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI, IMHO,
it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest they
aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had it right
(just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late), the
computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in providing
new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
YouTube, MySpace . . .
TCB
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The truth leaks out.
>
> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #76994 is a reply to message #76990] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 10:42 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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Hey Thad,
I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
more the latter than the former.
Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent the
creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
of OSX? :^)
Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their remote
control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
TCB wrote:
> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if MSoft
> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI, IMHO,
> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest they
> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>
> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had it right
> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late), the
> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in providing
> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>
> TCB
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The truth leaks out.
>>
>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #76995 is a reply to message #76994] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 12:37 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously fills
up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine. Then
the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has to
RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense, in
the real world things often change size when I focus on them. And of course
the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
some part of an app that happens to be near it. The fast user switching is
also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all happen
like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there. That
changes my life.
But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore, except
to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are interested
in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is the
ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job done,
and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly related
to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player, some
'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few extras.
For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development environment.
For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an OS
anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any hardware.
The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the applications
installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps I
use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home directory,
and a trash can.
When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole game
I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget the
name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm going
to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm restricted
IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there aren't
apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less attractive
operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an exception.
Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
had the basic apps I mentioned above.
People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day. There
already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their (really
irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it wouldn't
really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or Facebook,
etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said, if
you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will help
a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google, MySpace,
BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
TCB
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Hey Thad,
>
>I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
>yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>
>I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
>more the latter than the former.
>
>Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent the
>creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
>of OSX? :^)
>
>Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their remote
>control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>
>Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
>content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>
>Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
MSoft
>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI,
IMHO,
>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest they
>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>
>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had it
right
>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
the
>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
providing
>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>
>>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>>
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #76996 is a reply to message #76995] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 12:18 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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TCB wrote:
> My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously fills
> up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine.
The dock is not mandatory, but I find it handy. Given your opinions, if
you actually used OSX you'd probably soon figure out how to make it more
useful and less intrusive for you (system prefs/dock).
I haven't noticed apps I install appearing there unless I put them
there, other than the apps that come pre-installed.
FYI you can simply drag off any that you don't want there.
You can drag those remaining into any order you like. You can also put
folders on the dock, and documents, anything you want handy.
> Then
> the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has to
> RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense, in
> the real world things often change size when I focus on them.
Heh. Just that one thing does.
You can specify whether dock items magnify or not. I prefer that they do
because I've chosen to put a lot of stuff on the dock, and even on a 24"
monitor (same as yours, I think) the icons are pretty small. The
magnification works great. It's a useful, even clever approach IMO.
> And of course
> the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
> some part of an app that happens to be near it.
So now you know you can turn that feature off.
> The fast user switching is
> also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all happen
> like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there. That
> changes my life.
Heh. It helps illustrate the user change for those who don't have the
intrinsic understanding you do. Dunno if you can disable that, it's
never annoyed me so I haven't looked.
> But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore, except
> to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are interested
> in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is the
> ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job done,
> and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly related
> to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player, some
> 'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few extras.
Yep, those can all be open source: TBird, Firefox, OpenOffice/NeoOffice,
and VLC are a few I use on OSX.
> For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development environment.
> For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
Same as what you mentioned plus a variety of animation software.
> Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an OS
> anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any hardware.
> The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the applications
> installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps I
> use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home directory,
> and a trash can.
You could, with training (grin), set up the OSX dock to do that.
> When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
> When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
> from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole game
> I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget the
> name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm going
> to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm restricted
> IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there aren't
> apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less attractive
> operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an exception.
> Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
> had the basic apps I mentioned above.
Yep, although OS snobs like us would find reasons to prefer one over
another. And I have a variety of reasons to prefer OSX at this time.
> People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day. There
> already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their (really
> irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it wouldn't
> really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or Facebook,
> etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
If you took away OSX or WiXP it would screw up a lot of people, too. But
point taken about the growing importance of certain web sites.
OTOH, I like the concept of having local data rather than throwing my
data out onto a network.
> Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
> with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said, if
> you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will help
> a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google, MySpace,
> BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
....and iTunes/iPhoto (music, pics and video) with remote control,
perfect in a dorm room.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
> TCB
>
> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> Hey Thad,
>>
>> I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
>
>> yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>>
>> I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
>
>> more the latter than the former.
>>
>> Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent the
>
>> creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
>> of OSX? :^)
>>
>> Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>> connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their remote
>
>> control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>>
>> Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>>from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>> value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>> theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
>> content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>>
>> Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
> MSoft
>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI,
> IMHO,
>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest they
>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>>
>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had it
> right
>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
> the
>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
> providing
>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77002 is a reply to message #76996] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 17:51 |
emarenot
Messages: 345
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
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Hey Jamie,
I appreciated reading both your comments and TCB's. A couple of things came
to mind. I too struggle with local versus network based data. I think its
important to "have" systems that allow for both. To the second thought, I
find it kind of wierd that so many users (me too) buy into the latest and
greatest. Especially when so many of the most common computer based tasks
can still be accomplished on pre 21st century soft and hard ware. I not
trying in the slightest to dis any particular product or approach, and Lord
knows (though I doubt He cares) I DO run and enjoy some 2000-plus tech, but
I got 13 years of productive music making out of my Atari running at what
was it ... 8mhz. Still kicks my butt when I think about it.
MR
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:45805d88@linux...
> TCB wrote:
> > My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously
fills
> > up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine.
>
> The dock is not mandatory, but I find it handy. Given your opinions, if
> you actually used OSX you'd probably soon figure out how to make it more
> useful and less intrusive for you (system prefs/dock).
>
> I haven't noticed apps I install appearing there unless I put them
> there, other than the apps that come pre-installed.
>
> FYI you can simply drag off any that you don't want there.
>
> You can drag those remaining into any order you like. You can also put
> folders on the dock, and documents, anything you want handy.
>
>
> > Then
> > the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has
to
> > RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense,
in
> > the real world things often change size when I focus on them.
>
> Heh. Just that one thing does.
>
> You can specify whether dock items magnify or not. I prefer that they do
> because I've chosen to put a lot of stuff on the dock, and even on a 24"
> monitor (same as yours, I think) the icons are pretty small. The
> magnification works great. It's a useful, even clever approach IMO.
>
>
> > And of course
> > the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
> > some part of an app that happens to be near it.
>
> So now you know you can turn that feature off.
>
>
> > The fast user switching is
> > also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all
happen
> > like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there.
That
> > changes my life.
>
> Heh. It helps illustrate the user change for those who don't have the
> intrinsic understanding you do. Dunno if you can disable that, it's
> never annoyed me so I haven't looked.
>
>
> > But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore,
except
> > to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are
interested
> > in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is
the
> > ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job
done,
> > and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly
related
> > to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player,
some
> > 'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few
extras.
>
> Yep, those can all be open source: TBird, Firefox, OpenOffice/NeoOffice,
> and VLC are a few I use on OSX.
>
>
> > For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development
environment.
> > For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
>
> Same as what you mentioned plus a variety of animation software.
>
>
> > Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an
OS
> > anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any
hardware.
> > The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the
applications
> > installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps I
> > use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home
directory,
> > and a trash can.
>
> You could, with training (grin), set up the OSX dock to do that.
>
>
> > When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
> > When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
> > from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole
game
> > I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget
the
> > name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm
going
> > to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm
restricted
> > IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there
aren't
> > apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less
attractive
> > operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an
exception.
> > Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
> > had the basic apps I mentioned above.
>
> Yep, although OS snobs like us would find reasons to prefer one over
> another. And I have a variety of reasons to prefer OSX at this time.
>
>
> > People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day.
There
> > already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their
(really
> > irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it
wouldn't
> > really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or
Facebook,
> > etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
>
> If you took away OSX or WiXP it would screw up a lot of people, too. But
> point taken about the growing importance of certain web sites.
>
> OTOH, I like the concept of having local data rather than throwing my
> data out onto a network.
>
>
> > Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
> > with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said,
if
> > you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will
help
> > a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google,
MySpace,
> > BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
>
> ...and iTunes/iPhoto (music, pics and video) with remote control,
> perfect in a dorm room.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> > TCB
> >
> > Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
> >> Hey Thad,
> >>
> >> I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
> >
> >> yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
> >>
> >> I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
> >
> >> more the latter than the former.
> >>
> >> Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent
the
> >
> >> creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
> >> of OSX? :^)
> >>
> >> Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
> >> connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their
remote
> >
> >> control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
> >>
> >> Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
> >>from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
> >> value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
> >> theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
> >> content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
> >>
> >> Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> TCB wrote:
> >>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
> > MSoft
> >>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better
GUI,
> > IMHO,
> >>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
they
> >>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
> >>>
> >>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
it
> > right
> >>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
> > the
> >>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
> > providing
> >>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or
entertainment.
> >>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent,
Google,
> >>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
> >>>
> >>> TCB
> >>>
> >>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> The truth leaks out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
> >
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| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77007 is a reply to message #76995] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 16:36 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously
fills
>up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine.
Then
>the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has to
>RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense,
in
>the real world things often change size when I focus on them. And of course
>the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
>some part of an app that happens to be near it. The fast user switching
is
>also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all
happen
>like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there. That
>changes my life.
Ok, Just because you don't know how to use the Dock, doesn't make the Dock
stupid! Go to the top left hand corner and click on the apple icon. The
fifth item down is the dock, turn magnification off. You will also find
all of the Dock Preferences there.
Have too many short cut icons in the dock and want a short cut icon off the
dock, drag it off the dock, release and it's gone. Or you can highlight
an item in the dock, right mouse click, go "remove", and it's gone. Want
to add a short cut to the dock, drag an icon on to the dock, it adds it.
That's just one of many ways to do it. You want the dock out of the way,
go apple icon, Dock, go "Hide Dock". Want the Dock to appear again, put
your curser in the area where the Dock would be and it reappears. You can
set the timing on this in the preferences for how fast you want it back.
Move you curser off the Dock area, it disappears again. Or you can set
up hot corners, where you can place the curser for a second or two in the
corner of the screen and the dock appears. The Dock rocks, you just have
to know how to use it. There are many things you can do with the Dock, I'm
sure you could find ways to set it up so it would be workable.
>
>But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore, except
>to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are interested
>in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is the
>ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job done,
>and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly related
>to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player, some
>'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few extras.
>For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development environment.
>For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
Everything you say people wand in a computer/ operating system comes on a
stock Mac right out of the box, including the image and AV editors
>
>Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an OS
>anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any hardware.
>The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the applications
>installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps I
>use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home directory,
>and a trash can.
>
>When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
>When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
>from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole game
>I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget
the
>name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm going
>to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm restricted
>IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there aren't
>apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less attractive
>operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an exception.
>Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
>had the basic apps I mentioned above.
>
>People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day. There
>already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their
(really
>irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it wouldn't
>really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or Facebook,
>etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
Once again, I don't think you know how to use the Mac file browser correctly,
because you are so use to using the suck ass windows file browser that you
don't get it. I'll just say that the Mac file browser sucks so bad that
MS copied it for Windows Vista!
>
>Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
>with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said, if
>you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will
help
>a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google, MySpace,
>BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
>
A remote is just a nice feature to have for a multimedia system. It's the
wow, James Bond factor, and it also enhances the overall users experience.
Some of the pioneering technologies came from Apple and the mac community.
Programs like Sherlock and Watson helped shape what is available today with
their concepts.
As far as the college student, I could tell you some personal stories, but
I'll save that, and just say that I know personally that a Mac can take a
college student places; )
>TCB
>
>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hey Thad,
>>
>>I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
>
>>yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>>
>>I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
>
>>more the latter than the former.
>>
>>Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent the
>
>>creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
>>of OSX? :^)
>>
>>Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>>connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their remote
>
>>control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>>
>>Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>>from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>>value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>>theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
>>content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>>
>>Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>>
>>Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>TCB wrote:
>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
>MSoft
>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI,
>IMHO,
>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
they
>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>>
>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
it
>right
>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
>the
>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
>providing
>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77014 is a reply to message #77002] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 18:30 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Mike,
Systems that allow for both, I agree.
You're right that a lot of common tasks are fine on older boxes. Word
processing, web browsing, email. Although some apps have bloated up to
the point that they feel better on more recent computers.
Speaking of Atari, that takes me back. My old Ataris were great for
MIDI. My old Amigas opened up a world of video production (live
switching and deck control) and animation. The NeXT was an amazing
graphics and development box. BeOS was on its way to greatness with
media production when it was criminally run over and left to die.
Back to the present, the dual G5 is helpful and even necessary for some
of the high bandwidth tasks that have found a home here, like complex
synth/FX plugins, updated animation/graphics apps and hard drive based
HiDef video editing. With all these CPU cycles handy, this box and its
apps are doing the job it used to take several racks of gear to do, if
it could be done at all, so it's saving me a bunch of money and
expanding my capabilities.
The overall OSX foundation and GUI is fairly well thought out and
usable. I wouldn't say it's perfect but it's better than the current
alternatives for what I do.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Mike R. wrote:
> Hey Jamie,
> I appreciated reading both your comments and TCB's. A couple of things came
> to mind. I too struggle with local versus network based data. I think its
> important to "have" systems that allow for both. To the second thought, I
> find it kind of wierd that so many users (me too) buy into the latest and
> greatest. Especially when so many of the most common computer based tasks
> can still be accomplished on pre 21st century soft and hard ware. I not
> trying in the slightest to dis any particular product or approach, and Lord
> knows (though I doubt He cares) I DO run and enjoy some 2000-plus tech, but
> I got 13 years of productive music making out of my Atari running at what
> was it ... 8mhz. Still kicks my butt when I think about it.
> MR
>
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:45805d88@linux...
>> TCB wrote:
>>> My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously
> fills
>>> up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine.
>> The dock is not mandatory, but I find it handy. Given your opinions, if
>> you actually used OSX you'd probably soon figure out how to make it more
>> useful and less intrusive for you (system prefs/dock).
>>
>> I haven't noticed apps I install appearing there unless I put them
>> there, other than the apps that come pre-installed.
>>
>> FYI you can simply drag off any that you don't want there.
>>
>> You can drag those remaining into any order you like. You can also put
>> folders on the dock, and documents, anything you want handy.
>>
>>
>>> Then
>>> the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has
> to
>>> RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense,
> in
>>> the real world things often change size when I focus on them.
>> Heh. Just that one thing does.
>>
>> You can specify whether dock items magnify or not. I prefer that they do
>> because I've chosen to put a lot of stuff on the dock, and even on a 24"
>> monitor (same as yours, I think) the icons are pretty small. The
>> magnification works great. It's a useful, even clever approach IMO.
>>
>>
>> > And of course
>>> the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
>>> some part of an app that happens to be near it.
>> So now you know you can turn that feature off.
>>
>>
>> > The fast user switching is
>>> also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all
> happen
>>> like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there.
> That
>>> changes my life.
>> Heh. It helps illustrate the user change for those who don't have the
>> intrinsic understanding you do. Dunno if you can disable that, it's
>> never annoyed me so I haven't looked.
>>
>>
>>> But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore,
> except
>>> to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are
> interested
>>> in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is
> the
>>> ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job
> done,
>>> and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly
> related
>>> to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player,
> some
>>> 'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few
> extras.
>> Yep, those can all be open source: TBird, Firefox, OpenOffice/NeoOffice,
>> and VLC are a few I use on OSX.
>>
>>
>>> For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development
> environment.
>>> For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
>> Same as what you mentioned plus a variety of animation software.
>>
>>
>>> Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an
> OS
>>> anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any
> hardware.
>>> The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the
> applications
>>> installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps I
>>> use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home
> directory,
>>> and a trash can.
>> You could, with training (grin), set up the OSX dock to do that.
>>
>>
>>> When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
>>> When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
>>> from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole
> game
>>> I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget
> the
>>> name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm
> going
>>> to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm
> restricted
>>> IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there
> aren't
>>> apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less
> attractive
>>> operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an
> exception.
>>> Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
>>> had the basic apps I mentioned above.
>> Yep, although OS snobs like us would find reasons to prefer one over
>> another. And I have a variety of reasons to prefer OSX at this time.
>>
>>
>>> People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day.
> There
>>> already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their
> (really
>>> irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it
> wouldn't
>>> really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or
> Facebook,
>>> etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
>> If you took away OSX or WiXP it would screw up a lot of people, too. But
>> point taken about the growing importance of certain web sites.
>>
>> OTOH, I like the concept of having local data rather than throwing my
>> data out onto a network.
>>
>>
>>> Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
>>> with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said,
> if
>>> you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will
> help
>>> a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google,
> MySpace,
>>> BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
>> ...and iTunes/iPhoto (music, pics and video) with remote control,
>> perfect in a dorm room.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey Thad,
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
>>>> yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>>>>
>>>> I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
>>>> more the latter than the former.
>>>>
>>>> Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent
> the
>>>> creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
>>>> of OSX? :^)
>>>>
>>>> Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>>>> connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their
> remote
>>>> control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>>>>
>>>> Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>>> >from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>>>> value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>>>> theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
>>>> content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
>>> MSoft
>>>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better
> GUI,
>>> IMHO,
>>>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
> they
>>>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>>>>
>>>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
> it
>>> right
>>>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
>>> the
>>>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
>>> providing
>>>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or
> entertainment.
>>>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent,
> Google,
>>>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77019 is a reply to message #76990] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 20:52 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 12/13/06 9:51 AM, in article 45802165$1@linux, "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com>
wrote:
> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
> YouTube, MySpace . . .
No doubt. Factor in that Rupert Murdoch / NewCorp owns MySpace and
something is bound to happen beyond a teen chat room there - though my first
guess might be a mass marketing engine of some sort.
It's time for a new OS to hit the mainstream, not just the developers'
world. I'm not too psyched about what I've read of Vista, and if Apple
continues to refuse to release OSX as a standalone OS (which is 99.999999%
likely since it probably won't compete well on its' own), they and Microsoft
might just end up rolling out the red carpet for the next new kid on the
block. That wouldn't bother me in the least.
Just my idle speculation...
Dedric
>
> TCB
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The truth leaks out.
>>
>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?
>> partner=yahootix
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77031 is a reply to message #77014] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 09:16 |
emarenot
Messages: 345
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Jamie
I've been running Logic on an old (1998 I think) Mac clone. Recently a
friend gave me a good deal on a G4 which I've been running Cubase on.
Generally I record and mix on Paris in a PC. My Cubase projects have been
really teeny to date, but I tried to get 16 tracks up last night -just
audio, no effects -and it was starting to crackel. I'd love to be able to
run a dual G5. I imagine I could get pretty much all my tracks going on a
larger faster machine -synths, FX, tracks. I figure I'm gonna stick with my
setup for another year or two and then sink some cash into something that
will allow me to get it all done ITB, Being spread out over several
computers I can only glimpse how effecient the creative process will be for
me. Sounds like its been a real boost for you. I can't wait.
Cheers,
MR
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4580b48c@linux...
>
> Hey Mike,
>
> Systems that allow for both, I agree.
>
> You're right that a lot of common tasks are fine on older boxes. Word
> processing, web browsing, email. Although some apps have bloated up to
> the point that they feel better on more recent computers.
>
> Speaking of Atari, that takes me back. My old Ataris were great for
> MIDI. My old Amigas opened up a world of video production (live
> switching and deck control) and animation. The NeXT was an amazing
> graphics and development box. BeOS was on its way to greatness with
> media production when it was criminally run over and left to die.
>
> Back to the present, the dual G5 is helpful and even necessary for some
> of the high bandwidth tasks that have found a home here, like complex
> synth/FX plugins, updated animation/graphics apps and hard drive based
> HiDef video editing. With all these CPU cycles handy, this box and its
> apps are doing the job it used to take several racks of gear to do, if
> it could be done at all, so it's saving me a bunch of money and
> expanding my capabilities.
>
> The overall OSX foundation and GUI is fairly well thought out and
> usable. I wouldn't say it's perfect but it's better than the current
> alternatives for what I do.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> Mike R. wrote:
> > Hey Jamie,
> > I appreciated reading both your comments and TCB's. A couple of things
came
> > to mind. I too struggle with local versus network based data. I think
its
> > important to "have" systems that allow for both. To the second thought,
I
> > find it kind of wierd that so many users (me too) buy into the latest
and
> > greatest. Especially when so many of the most common computer based
tasks
> > can still be accomplished on pre 21st century soft and hard ware. I not
> > trying in the slightest to dis any particular product or approach, and
Lord
> > knows (though I doubt He cares) I DO run and enjoy some 2000-plus tech,
but
> > I got 13 years of productive music making out of my Atari running at
what
> > was it ... 8mhz. Still kicks my butt when I think about it.
> > MR
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:45805d88@linux...
> >> TCB wrote:
> >>> My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which
mysteriously
> > fills
> >>> up with every single application that is ever installed on the
machine.
> >> The dock is not mandatory, but I find it handy. Given your opinions, if
> >> you actually used OSX you'd probably soon figure out how to make it
more
> >> useful and less intrusive for you (system prefs/dock).
> >>
> >> I haven't noticed apps I install appearing there unless I put them
> >> there, other than the apps that come pre-installed.
> >>
> >> FYI you can simply drag off any that you don't want there.
> >>
> >> You can drag those remaining into any order you like. You can also put
> >> folders on the dock, and documents, anything you want handy.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Then
> >>> the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has
> > to
> >>> RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of
sense,
> > in
> >>> the real world things often change size when I focus on them.
> >> Heh. Just that one thing does.
> >>
> >> You can specify whether dock items magnify or not. I prefer that they
do
> >> because I've chosen to put a lot of stuff on the dock, and even on a
24"
> >> monitor (same as yours, I think) the icons are pretty small. The
> >> magnification works great. It's a useful, even clever approach IMO.
> >>
> >>
> >> > And of course
> >>> the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse
over
> >>> some part of an app that happens to be near it.
> >> So now you know you can turn that feature off.
> >>
> >>
> >> > The fast user switching is
> >>> also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it
all
> > happen
> >>> like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there.
> > That
> >>> changes my life.
> >> Heh. It helps illustrate the user change for those who don't have the
> >> intrinsic understanding you do. Dunno if you can disable that, it's
> >> never annoyed me so I haven't looked.
> >>
> >>
> >>> But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore,
> > except
> >>> to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are
> > interested
> >>> in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is
> > the
> >>> ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job
> > done,
> >>> and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly
> > related
> >>> to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player,
> > some
> >>> 'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few
> > extras.
> >> Yep, those can all be open source: TBird, Firefox,
OpenOffice/NeoOffice,
> >> and VLC are a few I use on OSX.
> >>
> >>
> >>> For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development
> > environment.
> >>> For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
> >> Same as what you mentioned plus a variety of animation software.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an
> > OS
> >>> anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any
> > hardware.
> >>> The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the
> > applications
> >>> installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps
I
> >>> use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home
> > directory,
> >>> and a trash can.
> >> You could, with training (grin), set up the OSX dock to do that.
> >>
> >>
> >>> When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm
using.
> >>> When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a
point
> >>> from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole
> > game
> >>> I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I
forget
> > the
> >>> name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm
> > going
> >>> to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm
> > restricted
> >>> IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there
> > aren't
> >>> apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less
> > attractive
> >>> operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an
> > exception.
> >>> Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if
it
> >>> had the basic apps I mentioned above.
> >> Yep, although OS snobs like us would find reasons to prefer one over
> >> another. And I have a variety of reasons to prefer OSX at this time.
> >>
> >>
> >>> People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day.
> > There
> >>> already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched
their
> > (really
> >>> irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it
> > wouldn't
> >>> really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or
> > Facebook,
> >>> etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
> >> If you took away OSX or WiXP it would screw up a lot of people, too.
But
> >> point taken about the growing importance of certain web sites.
> >>
> >> OTOH, I like the concept of having local data rather than throwing my
> >> data out onto a network.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in
touch
> >>> with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said,
> > if
> >>> you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it
will
> > help
> >>> a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google,
> > MySpace,
> >>> BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
> >> ...and iTunes/iPhoto (music, pics and video) with remote control,
> >> perfect in a dorm room.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -Jamie
> >> www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>
> >>
> >>> TCB
> >>>
> >>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
> >>>> Hey Thad,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is
functional
> >>>> yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
> >>>>
> >>>> I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day
is
> >>>> more the latter than the former.
> >>>>
> >>>> Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent
> > the
> >>>> creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your
impression
> >>>> of OSX? :^)
> >>>>
> >>>> Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
> >>>> connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their
> > remote
> >>>> control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
> >>>>
> >>>> Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
> >>> >from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
> >>>> value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
> >>>> theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level,
for
> >>>> content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> -Jamie
> >>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> TCB wrote:
> >>>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But
if
> >>> MSoft
> >>>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better
> > GUI,
> >>> IMHO,
> >>>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
> > they
> >>>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
> > it
> >>> right
> >>>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being
late),
> >>> the
> >>>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader
in
> >>> providing
> >>>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or
> > entertainment.
> >>>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent,
> > Google,
> >>>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TCB
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> The truth leaks out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >
http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
> >
> >
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77034 is a reply to message #77031] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 08:02 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Whenever you decide to upgrade, you'll be amazed. For example, any of
the current core 2 duo Intel Macs should be faster than what I use. And
the dual G5 I use is already fast enough to handle all the tracks, FX
and soft synths I've thrown at it.
The next jump is likely to be an 8 core Intel system. Apple's version
could be officially announced as early as next month. Should be able to
handle all your tracks/FX/synths, cook dinner, mow the lawn, cure
cancer, fix that leaky faucet, remodel the attic, beat you at chess and
come up with a unified field theory all at the same time...
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Mike R. wrote:
> Hey Jamie
> I've been running Logic on an old (1998 I think) Mac clone. Recently a
> friend gave me a good deal on a G4 which I've been running Cubase on.
> Generally I record and mix on Paris in a PC. My Cubase projects have been
> really teeny to date, but I tried to get 16 tracks up last night -just
> audio, no effects -and it was starting to crackel. I'd love to be able to
> run a dual G5. I imagine I could get pretty much all my tracks going on a
> larger faster machine -synths, FX, tracks. I figure I'm gonna stick with my
> setup for another year or two and then sink some cash into something that
> will allow me to get it all done ITB, Being spread out over several
> computers I can only glimpse how effecient the creative process will be for
> me. Sounds like its been a real boost for you. I can't wait.
> Cheers,
> MR
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4580b48c@linux...
>> Hey Mike,
>>
>> Systems that allow for both, I agree.
>>
>> You're right that a lot of common tasks are fine on older boxes. Word
>> processing, web browsing, email. Although some apps have bloated up to
>> the point that they feel better on more recent computers.
>>
>> Speaking of Atari, that takes me back. My old Ataris were great for
>> MIDI. My old Amigas opened up a world of video production (live
>> switching and deck control) and animation. The NeXT was an amazing
>> graphics and development box. BeOS was on its way to greatness with
>> media production when it was criminally run over and left to die.
>>
>> Back to the present, the dual G5 is helpful and even necessary for some
>> of the high bandwidth tasks that have found a home here, like complex
>> synth/FX plugins, updated animation/graphics apps and hard drive based
>> HiDef video editing. With all these CPU cycles handy, this box and its
>> apps are doing the job it used to take several racks of gear to do, if
>> it could be done at all, so it's saving me a bunch of money and
>> expanding my capabilities.
>>
>> The overall OSX foundation and GUI is fairly well thought out and
>> usable. I wouldn't say it's perfect but it's better than the current
>> alternatives for what I do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> Mike R. wrote:
>>> Hey Jamie,
>>> I appreciated reading both your comments and TCB's. A couple of things
> came
>>> to mind. I too struggle with local versus network based data. I think
> its
>>> important to "have" systems that allow for both. To the second thought,
> I
>>> find it kind of wierd that so many users (me too) buy into the latest
> and
>>> greatest. Especially when so many of the most common computer based
> tasks
>>> can still be accomplished on pre 21st century soft and hard ware. I not
>>> trying in the slightest to dis any particular product or approach, and
> Lord
>>> knows (though I doubt He cares) I DO run and enjoy some 2000-plus tech,
> but
>>> I got 13 years of productive music making out of my Atari running at
> what
>>> was it ... 8mhz. Still kicks my butt when I think about it.
>>> MR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:45805d88@linux...
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which
> mysteriously
>>> fills
>>>>> up with every single application that is ever installed on the
> machine.
>>>> The dock is not mandatory, but I find it handy. Given your opinions, if
>>>> you actually used OSX you'd probably soon figure out how to make it
> more
>>>> useful and less intrusive for you (system prefs/dock).
>>>>
>>>> I haven't noticed apps I install appearing there unless I put them
>>>> there, other than the apps that come pre-installed.
>>>>
>>>> FYI you can simply drag off any that you don't want there.
>>>>
>>>> You can drag those remaining into any order you like. You can also put
>>>> folders on the dock, and documents, anything you want handy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Then
>>>>> the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has
>>> to
>>>>> RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of
> sense,
>>> in
>>>>> the real world things often change size when I focus on them.
>>>> Heh. Just that one thing does.
>>>>
>>>> You can specify whether dock items magnify or not. I prefer that they
> do
>>>> because I've chosen to put a lot of stuff on the dock, and even on a
> 24"
>>>> monitor (same as yours, I think) the icons are pretty small. The
>>>> magnification works great. It's a useful, even clever approach IMO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > And of course
>>>>> the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse
> over
>>>>> some part of an app that happens to be near it.
>>>> So now you know you can turn that feature off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > The fast user switching is
>>>>> also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it
> all
>>> happen
>>>>> like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there.
>>> That
>>>>> changes my life.
>>>> Heh. It helps illustrate the user change for those who don't have the
>>>> intrinsic understanding you do. Dunno if you can disable that, it's
>>>> never annoyed me so I haven't looked.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore,
>>> except
>>>>> to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are
>>> interested
>>>>> in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is
>>> the
>>>>> ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job
>>> done,
>>>>> and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly
>>> related
>>>>> to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player,
>>> some
>>>>> 'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few
>>> extras.
>>>> Yep, those can all be open source: TBird, Firefox,
> OpenOffice/NeoOffice,
>>>> and VLC are a few I use on OSX.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development
>>> environment.
>>>>> For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
>>>> Same as what you mentioned plus a variety of animation software.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an
>>> OS
>>>>> anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any
>>> hardware.
>>>>> The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the
>>> applications
>>>>> installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps
> I
>>>>> use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home
>>> directory,
>>>>> and a trash can.
>>>> You could, with training (grin), set up the OSX dock to do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm
> using.
>>>>> When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a
> point
>>>>> from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole
>>> game
>>>>> I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I
> forget
>>> the
>>>>> name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm
>>> going
>>>>> to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm
>>> restricted
>>>>> IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there
>>> aren't
>>>>> apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less
>>> attractive
>>>>> operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an
>>> exception.
>>>>> Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if
> it
>>>>> had the basic apps I mentioned above.
>>>> Yep, although OS snobs like us would find reasons to prefer one over
>>>> another. And I have a variety of reasons to prefer OSX at this time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day.
>>> There
>>>>> already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched
> their
>>> (really
>>>>> irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it
>>> wouldn't
>>>>> really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or
>>> Facebook,
>>>>> etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
>>>> If you took away OSX or WiXP it would screw up a lot of people, too.
> But
>>>> point taken about the growing importance of certain web sites.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, I like the concept of having local data rather than throwing my
>>>> data out onto a network.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in
> touch
>>>>> with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said,
>>> if
>>>>> you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it
> will
>>> help
>>>>> a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google,
>>> MySpace,
>>>>> BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
>>>> ...and iTunes/iPhoto (music, pics and video) with remote control,
>>>> perfect in a dorm room.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Thad,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is
> functional
>>>>>> yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day
> is
>>>>>> more the latter than the former.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent
>>> the
>>>>>> creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your
> impression
>>>>>> of OSX? :^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>>>>>> connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their
>>> remote
>>>>>> control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>>>>> >from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>>>>>> value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>>>>>> theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level,
> for
>>>>>> content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But
> if
>>>>> MSoft
>>>>>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better
>>> GUI,
>>>>> IMHO,
>>>>>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
>>> they
>>>>>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
>>> it
>>>>> right
>>>>>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being
> late),
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader
> in
>>>>> providing
>>>>>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or
>>> entertainment.
>>>>>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent,
>>> Google,
>>>>>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77037 is a reply to message #77007] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 11:55 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"james McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>My #1 nomination for busy, bubbling gunk is the Dock, which mysteriously
>fills
>>up with every single application that is ever installed on the machine.
>Then
>>the icons get small (and often don't make much sense anyway) so it has
to
>>RESIZE itself when it's moused over. Because that makes a lot of sense,
>in
>>the real world things often change size when I focus on them. And of course
>>the Dock is always there, waiting to resize itself should you mouse over
>>some part of an app that happens to be near it. The fast user switching
>is
>>also great, when I change users it's REALLY important to me that it all
>happen
>>like a big cube moved to a different side and the new user is there. That
>>changes my life.
>
>Ok, Just because you don't know how to use the Dock, doesn't make the Dock
>stupid! Go to the top left hand corner and click on the apple icon. The
>fifth item down is the dock, turn magnification off. You will also find
>all of the Dock Preferences there.
>
>Have too many short cut icons in the dock and want a short cut icon off
the
>dock, drag it off the dock, release and it's gone. Or you can highlight
>an item in the dock, right mouse click, go "remove", and it's gone. Want
>to add a short cut to the dock, drag an icon on to the dock, it adds it.
> That's just one of many ways to do it. You want the dock out of the way,
>go apple icon, Dock, go "Hide Dock". Want the Dock to appear again, put
>your curser in the area where the Dock would be and it reappears. You can
>set the timing on this in the preferences for how fast you want it back.
> Move you curser off the Dock area, it disappears again. Or you can set
>up hot corners, where you can place the curser for a second or two in the
>corner of the screen and the dock appears. The Dock rocks, you just have
>to know how to use it. There are many things you can do with the Dock,
I'm
>sure you could find ways to set it up so it would be workable.
The Dock is a tool to launch applications quickly. Why, oh why, should I
need to 'learn' anything to use a quick application launcher? All of the
eye candy was designed by someone with an agenda to make things bubbly and
pretty, which might make sense from a marketing perspective but if it causes
someone as familiar with computers as I am to find it annoying it's bad design.
Forgive me a little conceit here but I'd guess I'm easily in the top 5% worldwide
when it comes to skill using computers, so I'll do the 'right' thing a lot
more often than most people, so I don't think I should need to spend significant
amounts of time customizing something as simple as an application launcher.
It's like years ago when some early version of Windows Media Player changed
the aspect ratio of a video when the window was resized. Yes, there was a
key command (L if I remember) to keep the aspect ratio, but it was much more
sensible and easy if it did what everyone should expect it to do in the first
place, which is keep the aspect ratio in the first place.
>>
>>But my real point is that the operating system doesn't matter anymore,
except
>>to the people who sell them and a smaller number of people who are interested
>>in them. What most people want from their computers (including me) is the
>>ability to get information, find answers to questions, get their job done,
>>and sometimes be entertained. Those tasks are no longer significantly related
>>to what OS is run. For them one needs a web browser, a media player, some
>>'office' applications, an email (and maybe news/rss) reader, and a few
extras.
>>For me those extras are audio apps, a command line, and a development environment.
>>For you they might be an image editor and a video editor.
>
>Everything you say people wand in a computer/ operating system comes on
a
>stock Mac right out of the box, including the image and AV editors
Same is true of XP boxes and most, though not all, linux distros.
>>
>>Personally, for a window manager (which is what most people mean by an
OS
>>anyway) I like Gnome. It's simple, it runs quickly on almost any hardware.
>>The 'stock' install on Debian includes a drop down menu for all the applications
>>installed, a bar where I can drop quick launch icons for the five apps
I
>>use all the time, a shortcut to the root filesystem and my home directory,
>>and a trash can.
>>
>>When I need directions, I go to google maps no matter what OS I'm using.
>>When I want to see a replay of the Michael Essien goal that took a point
>>from Arsenal on Sunday I go to YouTube. When I want to watch the whole
game
>>I fire up Azereus and download two VCD ISOs via BitTorrent. If I forget
>the
>>name of the guy who assassinated McKinley I go to wikipedia. If I'm going
>>to write code I use Eclipse or Emacs. The first time in my day I'm restricted
>>IN ANY WAY by the OS is when I start doing music creation and there aren't
>>apps I find useful enough on linux so I'm stuck using one of the less attractive
>>operating systems so I can use Live, SX, and so on. But in that I'm an
exception.
>>Most people could spend 100% of their computing lives using any OS if it
>>had the basic apps I mentioned above.
>
>>
>>People talk about whether there will be a 'Google platform' some day. There
>>already IS a google platform, in the sense that if Apple switched their
>(really
>>irritating) file browser for the (actually better) XP file browser it wouldn't
>>really matter, but if you took away google maps (or MySpace, or Facebook,
>>etc) it would screw up a LOT of people.
>
>Once again, I don't think you know how to use the Mac file browser correctly,
>because you are so use to using the suck ass windows file browser that you
>don't get it. I'll just say that the Mac file browser sucks so bad that
>MS copied it for Windows Vista!
Now I have to learn something special to use a file browser as well? This
is absurd, I've already used dozens of more or less good file browsers on
different versions of Windows, Mac OS, Blackberries, PalmOS devices, and
of course file cabinets themselves. But to use the OS X file browser I have
to retrain myself. Why? It's just a way to get files.
And you miss my real point, which is that the OS doesn't matter anymore.
If one notices the OS that means something is wrong with it. Vista is the
last gasp, one more shot for Microsoft to make a bunch of money, after that
it's all about the network baby.
TCB
>>
>>Now then, a remote control is a revolutionary way to get people in touch
>>with information and entertainment? Remember what Jamie Zawinski said,
if
>>you want to know what software is going to be popular, think if it will
>help
>>a 20 year old college student in his dorm room get laid. Google, MySpace,
>>BitTorrnet and YouTube . . .
>>
>A remote is just a nice feature to have for a multimedia system. It's the
>wow, James Bond factor, and it also enhances the overall users experience.
>
>
>Some of the pioneering technologies came from Apple and the mac community.
> Programs like Sherlock and Watson helped shape what is available today
with
>their concepts.
>
>As far as the college student, I could tell you some personal stories, but
>I'll save that, and just say that I know personally that a Mac can take
a
>college student places; )
>
>>TCB
>>
>>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hey Thad,
>>>
>>>I'm curious, what of OSX is "busy bubbling gunk" and what is functional
>>
>>>yet aesthetic presentation of useful UI elements?
>>>
>>>I realize you don't actually work with OSX, but what I see every day is
>>
>>>more the latter than the former.
>>>
>>>Are you involved in the GUI initiatives on Linux in order to prevent the
>>
>>>creation of an unmitigated disaster along the lines of your impression
>
>>>of OSX? :^)
>>>
>>>Also, clearly Apple actually has been a leader, in some areas, in
>>>connecting people to info and entertainment: iTunes, iPods, their remote
>>
>>>control thingie (and perhaps the upcoming iTV).
>>>
>>>Not to take anything away from Microsoft and their XBox strategy - or
>>>from Google, Bittorent, YouTube or MySpace, ranging from providing
>>>value-added services to exploiting content producers and encouraging
>>>theft to drive ad sales or build value. On a pure technical level, for
>
>>>content distribution the Bittorent approach is compelling.
>>>
>>>Oh, and you forgot AOL. ;^)
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>TCB wrote:
>>>> From what I've seen of Vista it's nothing to write home about. But if
>>MSoft
>>>> was looking to strive for a better GUI (Vista isn't about a better GUI,
>>IMHO,
>>>> it's about a more lucrative way to screw your customers) I'd suggest
>they
>>>> aim higher than the busy, bubbling gunk that is OS X.FurryFeline.
>>>>
>>>> But my guess is that Vista will be the end of the 'OS wars.' Sun had
>it
>>right
>>>> (just way ahead of their time, which is nearly as bad as being late),
>>the
>>>> computer is the network. Neither Apple nor MSoft has been a leader in
>>providing
>>>> new and exiting ways to connect people with information or entertainment.
>>>> Bittorrent, Google, YouTube, MySpace. Repeat after me, Bittorrent, Google,
>>>> YouTube, MySpace . . .
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The truth leaks out.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/12/apple-microsoft-mac-tech-cz _dl_1212mac.html?partner=yahootix
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Copycats; ) [message #77039 is a reply to message #77037] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 12:04 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I, for one, welcome our ubergeek overlords. But as a member of the
ubergeek overlords, you're overthinking this one.
Your OSX dock objections seem trivial given that your main hangup is
something you could turn off easily.
"Learning" the dock takes about five seconds. I'll sign you up for
classes if you like, they're on Tuesday from 1pm to 1:00:05pm... ;^)
BTW, from my experience on development projects, ubergeeks are very
likely not the best UI designers for geek-challenged folks.
Which is not to say Apple's designers always do the right thing or that
there aren't other ways to design a useful dock.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
TCB wrote:
> The Dock is a tool to launch applications quickly. Why, oh why, should I
> need to 'learn' anything to use a quick application launcher? All of the
> eye candy was designed by someone with an agenda to make things bubbly and
> pretty, which might make sense from a marketing perspective but if it causes
> someone as familiar with computers as I am to find it annoying it's bad design.
> Forgive me a little conceit here but I'd guess I'm easily in the top 5% worldwide
> when it comes to skill using computers, so I'll do the 'right' thing a lot
> more often than most people, so I don't think I should need to spend significant
> amounts of time customizing something as simple as an application launcher.
>
>
> It's like years ago when some early version of Windows Media Player changed
> the aspect ratio of a video when the window was resized. Yes, there was a
> key command (L if I remember) to keep the aspect ratio, but it was much more
> sensible and easy if it did what everyone should expect it to do in the first
> place, which is keep the aspect ratio in the first place.
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