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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104944 is a reply to message #104943] |
Wed, 03 March 2010 06:43   |
drfrankencopter
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Senior Member |
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Ted, to answer your questions:
1. 'wondering in advance if you can send more than a stereo pair from the card submix to the same stereo "in" of the Native submix. ie: like a whole drum kit, or background vox group etc.'
Yes...to my knowledge this is possible. The when Senderella is set to be a 'return' it will sum all the sends that are set to that channel.
2. if so, would they each be returned to the Insert slot from which they were sent, or could you return them elsewhere on the card submix (assuming open tracks)?
I've only experimented with returning to open tracks. I used native submixes for this as it made sense for FX returns. But, I could envision situations where you might want to put the source tracks on native submixes and return them to EDS submixes. An example here could be grouping a bunch of background vocals and having them return on a pair of channels in an EDS submix. The only gottcha is that the Senderella send is pre-fader so you can't do automation on the sends, only the returns. This is something I think could be addressed by reading the EDS mixer state, or through Midi automation.
I've also thought of another use for Senderella. I haven't tried it, but perhaps it could be used to create interesting delay based FX. Imagine an insert chain consisting of (top to bottom):
- Senderella return (from sends in another mix)
- A second Senderella return (with pass through...linked to the output of the delay line)
- Digital delay set to no-feedback
- Phaser, Filter, or Some other kind of modulation
- Senderella send back to the return above
Now you have a delay with phasing/filtering/tape saturation, you name it, in the feedback loop. It's like a modular synth for delays.
Cheers
Kris
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104959 is a reply to message #104957] |
Thu, 04 March 2010 14:11 |
mani1147
Messages: 130
Registered: May 2009
Location: NB Canada
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Senior Member |
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This is to cool Kris, thanks a bunch.
PS: So your new P55-UD3L MOBO is working ok, I think I have a bit of a IRQ conflict happening with my 3rd EDS and my UAD-1 PCI, seems they are both fighting for bandwidth on IRQ 19. At 50% UAD load, Paris will just stop playback with the streaming error and the UAD card will disappear from the UAD ctrl panel(no card detected), need to reboot pc to get UAD back. I think I have to switch over to "Standard PC" instead of ACPI and then manually assign some IRQs if I can, hope this works.
Chow
Rob_A
[Updated on: Thu, 04 March 2010 14:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104960 is a reply to message #104959] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 05:51 |
drfrankencopter
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Senior Member |
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So far, so good on the Mobo, but I haven't stress tested it. Also, I opted not to put the UAD-1 back in. Too many headaches with advancing tracks, or deleting time.
The only issue I've been running into is an occasional crash on exit. That, and the Soundtoys plug-ins I'm demoing generate a 'ticking' sound (I tried them wrapped into Direct-x, as VSTs, and with Chainer, and the behavior is the same. This only happens in Paris, and it doesn't matter how many tracks I have going at the same time. Too bad...they sound good in Wavelab. I wonder if Paris.cfg settings could affect that. Maybe I need to set the EDSTransfer value to something.
Does anyone have the scoop on what the various settings in the paris config file do?
Cheers
Kris
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104962 is a reply to message #104961] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 01:24 |
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I just stumbled across (another) big gap in my understanding - this needs plugins to be *wrapped*, right?
I've never done that before - am I wrapping DX plugins so the "present" to PARIS as VSTs? Or is it the other way around? I downloaded the FXpansion 3.3 wrapper from the ParisFAQs site -it seems to be made to wrap VSTs as DXs, so far so good?
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104966 is a reply to message #104965] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 14:19 |
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I just added a section on EDSTransfer culled from forum info (chiefly from Dimitrios); have a look at the foot of the Wiki config page. Still looking for PreQFactor info.
OK, collected up some sketchy info on PreQFactor there as well. Pretty meagre so far though, anyone got more?
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
[Updated on: Sun, 07 March 2010 09:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104970 is a reply to message #104966] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 10:54 |
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OK, got SIR to show up and routed to it - it works! Pretty darned cool!
I'm experiencing some issues right now that might be related to my struggles with figuring out wrappers et al. I'm experiencing apparently fluctuating latency with this chain - audio routed through it seems to have audibly fluctuating latency. It almost seems like the clock that steadies the stream (is there one?) is "wobbling" - the audio received itself is almost "inconsistently vari-speeded". I've experimented with EDSTransfer=8,16, couldn't really hear a big change - I might need to clean out the plugin folder and simplify.
If you're getting a steady latency (or no latency) on your system then it's likely to be a configuration issue on this end since I'm delving into all this stuff for the first time.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104973 is a reply to message #104971] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 12:04 |
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Gotcha. I'll check a broader range of plugs. Don't know about "fixed buffer sizes" being something we can get at, Mike would know more about that. I dug up some more stuff about EDSTransfer from Steve's site including some interesting input from Edmund (it seems the first number, the one before the comma, is suggested to be 1/4 your chosen disk I/O), check the Wiki page.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #104976 is a reply to message #104971] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 17:51 |
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| drfrankencopter wrote on Mon, 08 March 2010 12:00 | Kerry, have you tried bypassing SIR? Is the problem with Senderella (and the wrapper function), or SIR?
Interestingly enough, I think the problems that I was having with SoundToys plugins may have been related to variable buffer sizes or odd length buffer sizes. What I ended up getting on those plugins was audio that clicked whenever sound was present. Apparently, in FL studio in order to get these plugins to work you need to set "Fixed buffer sizes", and in Ableton Live you need to set it to an even buffer length:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments- electronic-music-production/455889-issues-soundtoys-live-8-a .html
In Paris, I don't think we have any chance of changing the buffer length. Unless there's a hidden setting in the .cfg file that can affect this. Perhaps I'll learn more as I dig deeper into VST programming.
Cheers
Kris
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I disabled SIR and the "skiddy buffer" effect persists, even with a new song and new tracks. It's either Senderella or what I wrapped it in, or it's something in my system. Can't shake it with settings either. But that's actually pretty good news though - the audio routing itself is working perfectly well, so since we *have* the source code for Senderella it might just be a matter of tweaking it for use in PARIS and maybe "toughening it up" for robustness. Do you think it's a matter of "forcing" the buffers to match what the PARIS FX system expects, or is it a lot more than that?
PS: as time permits I'll get some links up to a couple of other cool PARIS-related things we have source code for - maybe a couple of "no longer supporteds" we might be able to ask if we can adopt too. Not meaning to rope you into anything, but maybe there's other code folk out there in the community as well that might be interested in small, focused projects with potentially cool advances waiting at the end.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
[Updated on: Mon, 08 March 2010 19:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #105002 is a reply to message #104977] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 18:30 |
drfrankencopter
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Senior Member |
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Kerry,
I managed to hear the problem with Senderella too. I loaded up a session, solo'd the Senderella returns, while the sends were coming from a vocal and heard a sort of 'stutter' effect.
For me, setting EDSTransfer=8,16 or EDSTransfer=8,8 made the problem go away. I suspect that EDSTransfer=8,8 was better, but I wasn't really scientific in my testing. I did remove the EDSTransfer line, and the stuttering came back.
Next I will try using a smaller disk I/O size, as I had a smaller size when I first experimented with Senderella and didn't notice the problem. However, truth be told since my send source was a snare drum maybe it was there and I just didn't notice.
Oh, and I tried it with Senderella as a Paris VST, FXpansion wrapped, and in Chainer...its behaviour was the same with all three.
I'll try the disk I/O experiment tomorrow. I noticed that paris' meters are slower with 128 K I/O...especially in the native submixes.
Cheers
Kris
PS: I tried polarity inverting the channel with the Senderella send's, and while I didn't get a perfect null, it was only high frequencies that remained. I suspect there is a delay of a few samples (not sure if it's the EDS submix delay, or Senderella's delay...but I suspect the EDS submix, as it was submix 2 I was sending from).
[Updated on: Thu, 11 March 2010 18:33] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How to achieve Stereo Native Auxes - step by step [message #105008 is a reply to message #105002] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 19:03 |
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| Quote: | For me, setting EDSTransfer=8,16 or EDSTransfer=8,8 made the problem go away. I suspect that EDSTransfer=8,8 was better, but I wasn't really scientific in my testing. I did remove the EDSTransfer line, and the stuttering came back.
Next I will try using a smaller disk I/O size, as I had a smaller size when I first experimented with Senderella and didn't notice the problem. However, truth be told since my send source was a snare drum maybe it was there and I just didn't notice.
Oh, and I tried it with Senderella as a Paris VST, FXpansion wrapped, and in Chainer...its behaviour was the same with all three.
I'll try the disk I/O experiment tomorrow. I noticed that paris' meters are slower with 128 K I/O...especially in the native submixes.
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I really want to get the interactions between configuration settings mapped out. I'd love to make an interactive calculator that one could plug a desired outcome into and it would suggest optimal settings.
Dimitrios has some absolutely killer posts about these sort of issues, he did a ton of pioneering on this topic. Some of these may be useful:
Aux channels compression
Paris Workarounds Update
Did you see that Wormhole has gone open source? That's pretty exciting stuff.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
[Updated on: Thu, 11 March 2010 19:16] Report message to a moderator |
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