Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » The Perfect Pitch saga continues...
| The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69317] |
Wed, 14 June 2006 04:10  |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day spread
out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about 95%
correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic scale,
which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last couple
of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black notes).
All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place for
a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through them.
Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and just
go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more. The instant
response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back up again,
and I'm quite happy with my progress.
Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures contributing
to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even more
in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval, so
on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other assistance"
my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident I'm getting
the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know what it
is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for, and
whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot of controversy
around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be born with
it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in the
face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed it
late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence of people
who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through with
lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my ear,
based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the ability,
and I think I'm starting to hear something.
I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which have given
me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my head
(no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head an listening
to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A. Followed
the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G to F#
and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked later
and sure enough I was dead on.
I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which I also
worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which I sensed
were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a keyboard
I checked and sure enough was bang on.
For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs as
reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out of that,
and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to me...
that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is. It's
a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating between
them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's enough
to give me confidence that I should continue.
There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about whether
it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My feeling
on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at a later
stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long after
learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that I'm
hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also. I'm
hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old way.
I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it, whereas
I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence I am
picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but basically
turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something is
off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if I'm
right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such things,
and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out of key
parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with some
things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and simply
use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives. I'm
hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I can be
one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
....assuming I aquire the skill at all.
I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I can explain
to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in fact,
it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me. Some are
more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others still
are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming increasingly
confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I don't.
;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69328 is a reply to message #69317] |
Wed, 14 June 2006 17:04  |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kim,
Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very useful
to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you can
learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to identify
intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I tried to
get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for them
and then have them identify the chords that followed just by listening.
Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
Good luck,
Sarah
www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:448feeb1$1@linux...
>
>
> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day
> spread
> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about 95%
> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic
> scale,
> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last couple
> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black
> notes).
> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place for
> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through them.
> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and just
> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more. The
> instant
> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back up
> again,
> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
>
> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures contributing
> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even more
> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval, so
> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
> assistance"
> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident I'm
> getting
> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know what it
> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
>
> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for, and
> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot of
> controversy
> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be born
> with
> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in the
> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed it
> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence of
> people
> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through with
> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my ear,
> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the ability,
> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
>
> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which have
> given
> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my head
> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head an
> listening
> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A. Followed
> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G to F#
> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked
> later
> and sure enough I was dead on.
>
> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which I
> also
> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which I
> sensed
> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
> keyboard
> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
>
> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs as
> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out of
> that,
> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to me...
> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is. It's
> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating between
> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's
> enough
> to give me confidence that I should continue.
>
> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about
> whether
> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My feeling
> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at a later
> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long after
> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that I'm
> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also. I'm
> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old way.
> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
> whereas
> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence I am
> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but basically
> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something is
> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if I'm
> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
> things,
> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out of key
> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with some
> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and simply
> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives. I'm
> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I can be
> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
>
> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
>
> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I can
> explain
> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in fact,
> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
>
> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me. Some
> are
> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others still
> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming increasingly
> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
>
> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I don't.
> ;o)
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69330 is a reply to message #69328] |
Wed, 14 June 2006 17:49 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm already pretty good with all that, for the most part. I mean if a song
is in a normal major or minor key, for the most part I can, given the first
chord, fairly much fudge my way through it first bash, assuming I've heard
the song enough to be able to remember it. I can usually accurately guess
most standard chord changes, and can also deal with most of the typical modifications
to normal keys used in pop songs... say incorporating chords like G major
or D major into a song in E major for example. All that stuff is fairly second
nature, as I learned originally by ear using the Suzuki method. I was working
out songs off the radio at age ten, so I've pretty much got that down, but
I do need a starting key.
The issue is that I'm bored with it all I guess, and I want more new ground
to explore. Anything I already know the sound of, I know the sound of. ;o)
I want to do things that I don't know the sound of, that is unusual, and
for that I'm going to have to do a lot more ear training. I want to master
jazz, and I'd like to be able to just imagine a chord that I want to hear,
and play it... and with jazz that means not just major and minor and the
odd seventh or sixth, but 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, diminished, augmented, and
every other variation... and not necessarily chords with simple obvious
relationships to the current chord or key, but often parts that fit in very
odd ways. This is all stuff I'm not used to. This is all stuff which is hard
for me with just relative pitch, so I'm going to have to do some training
anyhow. I figure it's worth exploring perfect pitch as an option.
The thing is, I figure, there is evidence that you can train perfect pitch,
and if you can, I want it. ;o)
I'm thinking that, while to a degree it would be possible, to train my relative
pitch up to a standard where I can immediately recognise any chord at all
from a given known starting point, that it would be the long road. If there's
a chance of circumventing the process by aquiring perfect pitch, then I'm
willing to do that. The question is how much effort will it take to get the
skills to the point where any sound I hear in my head will be immediately
translated to an actual note.
In any case, the perfect pitch training I'm doing is certainly aiding my
relative pitch skills also. A lot of the note guessing is done using relative
pitch, so I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone. When I'm finished,
my ear will have improved in both relative pitch and perfect pitch, so that's
got to be a good thing. If all I acheive is the ability to pick any interval,
first guess, every time, using relative pitch, even intervals of several
octaves, well, that will be a significant improvement, but if I can aquire
perfect pitch, all the better.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Kim,
>
> Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
>identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very useful
>to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you can
>learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to identify
>intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I tried
to
>get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for them
>and then have them identify the chords that followed just by listening.
>Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Sarah
>www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:448feeb1$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day
>> spread
>> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about 95%
>> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic
>> scale,
>> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last couple
>> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black
>> notes).
>> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place
for
>> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through them.
>> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and
just
>> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more. The
>> instant
>> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back up
>> again,
>> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
>>
>> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures contributing
>> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even more
>> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval,
so
>> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
>> assistance"
>> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident I'm
>> getting
>> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know what
it
>> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
>>
>> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for, and
>> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot of
>> controversy
>> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be born
>> with
>> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in the
>> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed
it
>> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence of
>> people
>> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through
with
>> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my ear,
>> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the ability,
>> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
>>
>> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which have
>> given
>> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my head
>> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head an
>> listening
>> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A. Followed
>> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G to
F#
>> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked
>> later
>> and sure enough I was dead on.
>>
>> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which I
>> also
>> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which
I
>> sensed
>> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
>> keyboard
>> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
>>
>> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs
as
>> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out of
>> that,
>> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to me...
>> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is. It's
>> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating between
>> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's
>> enough
>> to give me confidence that I should continue.
>>
>> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about
>> whether
>> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My feeling
>> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at a later
>> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long after
>> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that
I'm
>> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also.
I'm
>> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old way.
>> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
>> whereas
>> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence I
am
>> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but basically
>> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something
is
>> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if I'm
>> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
>> things,
>> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out of
key
>> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with
some
>> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and simply
>> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives.
I'm
>> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I can
be
>> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
>>
>> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
>>
>> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I can
>> explain
>> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in fact,
>> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
>>
>> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me. Some
>> are
>> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others still
>> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming increasingly
>> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
>>
>> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I don't.
>> ;o)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69357 is a reply to message #69330] |
Thu, 15 June 2006 18:08 |
Edna Sloan
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Although PP could come in handy, say for identifying a particular key, I see
no advantage to it over relative pitch. As far as it having negatives, such
as knowing when something is not in tune, the same is also true of relative
pitch. This is what bothers me when I hear something out of tune
(relatively). I don't have to know the name of the key (which is really
arbitrary anyway). To what tolerance is PP? How many cents are we talking
about. At what point centswise does something not exactly in tune bother
you? I don't think this will change with practice. If it doesn't bother
you now, I dont think it would with pitch practice.
I do think what is really important is ear training, especially in jazz
where you have all types of subtle voicings and progressions to create a
harmony behind a melody or just walls of color. All the voicings have a
different "sound" and what you leave out as well as how you move between
changes makes a big difference. For me this was the most important part of
learning music since it gets more deeply into the artistic aspects. I do
believe one with a decent ear can learn to identify these textures or
"sounds." There was a good book on voicings, by Dan Haerle I believe, used
at NTSU.
MHO,
Edna
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4490ae93$1@linux...
>
>
> I'm already pretty good with all that, for the most part. I mean if a song
> is in a normal major or minor key, for the most part I can, given the
first
> chord, fairly much fudge my way through it first bash, assuming I've heard
> the song enough to be able to remember it. I can usually accurately guess
> most standard chord changes, and can also deal with most of the typical
modifications
> to normal keys used in pop songs... say incorporating chords like G major
> or D major into a song in E major for example. All that stuff is fairly
second
> nature, as I learned originally by ear using the Suzuki method. I was
working
> out songs off the radio at age ten, so I've pretty much got that down, but
> I do need a starting key.
>
> The issue is that I'm bored with it all I guess, and I want more new
ground
> to explore. Anything I already know the sound of, I know the sound of. ;o)
> I want to do things that I don't know the sound of, that is unusual, and
> for that I'm going to have to do a lot more ear training. I want to master
> jazz, and I'd like to be able to just imagine a chord that I want to hear,
> and play it... and with jazz that means not just major and minor and the
> odd seventh or sixth, but 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, diminished, augmented, and
> every other variation... and not necessarily chords with simple obvious
> relationships to the current chord or key, but often parts that fit in
very
> odd ways. This is all stuff I'm not used to. This is all stuff which is
hard
> for me with just relative pitch, so I'm going to have to do some training
> anyhow. I figure it's worth exploring perfect pitch as an option.
>
> The thing is, I figure, there is evidence that you can train perfect
pitch,
> and if you can, I want it. ;o)
>
> I'm thinking that, while to a degree it would be possible, to train my
relative
> pitch up to a standard where I can immediately recognise any chord at all
> from a given known starting point, that it would be the long road. If
there's
> a chance of circumventing the process by aquiring perfect pitch, then I'm
> willing to do that. The question is how much effort will it take to get
the
> skills to the point where any sound I hear in my head will be immediately
> translated to an actual note.
>
> In any case, the perfect pitch training I'm doing is certainly aiding my
> relative pitch skills also. A lot of the note guessing is done using
relative
> pitch, so I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone. When I'm finished,
> my ear will have improved in both relative pitch and perfect pitch, so
that's
> got to be a good thing. If all I acheive is the ability to pick any
interval,
> first guess, every time, using relative pitch, even intervals of several
> octaves, well, that will be a significant improvement, but if I can aquire
> perfect pitch, all the better.
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
>
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >Kim,
> >
> > Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
> >identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very
useful
>
> >to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you
can
>
> >learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to identify
>
> >intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I tried
> to
> >get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for them
>
> >and then have them identify the chords that followed just by listening.
>
> >Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
> >
> >Good luck,
> >
> >Sarah
> >www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
> >
> >
> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:448feeb1$1@linux...
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day
>
> >> spread
> >> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about
95%
> >> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic
>
> >> scale,
> >> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last
couple
> >> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black
>
> >> notes).
> >> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place
> for
> >> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through
them.
> >> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and
> just
> >> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more. The
>
> >> instant
> >> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back up
>
> >> again,
> >> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
> >>
> >> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures
contributing
> >> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even
more
> >> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval,
> so
> >> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
> >> assistance"
> >> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident I'm
>
> >> getting
> >> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know what
> it
> >> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
> >>
> >> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for,
and
> >> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot of
>
> >> controversy
> >> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be born
>
> >> with
> >> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in
the
> >> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed
> it
> >> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence of
>
> >> people
> >> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through
> with
> >> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my
ear,
> >> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the
ability,
> >> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
> >>
> >> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which have
>
> >> given
> >> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my
head
> >> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head an
>
> >> listening
> >> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A.
Followed
> >> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G to
> F#
> >> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked
>
> >> later
> >> and sure enough I was dead on.
> >>
> >> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which I
>
> >> also
> >> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which
> I
> >> sensed
> >> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
> >> keyboard
> >> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
> >>
> >> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs
> as
> >> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out of
>
> >> that,
> >> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to
me...
> >> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is.
It's
> >> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating
between
> >> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's
>
> >> enough
> >> to give me confidence that I should continue.
> >>
> >> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about
>
> >> whether
> >> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My
feeling
> >> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at a
later
> >> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long
after
> >> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that
> I'm
> >> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also.
> I'm
> >> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old
way.
> >> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
> >> whereas
> >> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence I
> am
> >> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but
basically
> >> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something
> is
> >> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if
I'm
> >> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
> >> things,
> >> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out of
> key
> >> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with
> some
> >> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and
simply
> >> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives.
> I'm
> >> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I can
> be
> >> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
> >>
> >> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
> >>
> >> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I can
>
> >> explain
> >> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in
fact,
> >> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
> >>
> >> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me. Some
>
> >> are
> >> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others
still
> >> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming
increasingly
> >> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
> >>
> >> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I
don't.
> >> ;o)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Kim.
> >
> >
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69358 is a reply to message #69357] |
Thu, 15 June 2006 20:16 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The thing is I guess that the program I'm using will be helping my relative
pitch also. Indeed Chris Latham argued that that is possibly all it is doing.
I mean it just feeds me random notes, and some of the time I clearly use
relative pitch to work out which note it is. How much of the time? Who knows?
The first note is certainly harder than later notes.
If I can get to pretty much 100% hit rate on the program, and find I still
don't have perfect pitch, at least I'll know that my relative pitch is second
to none, and at least in that I will have acheived something.
Cheers,
Kim.
"RiverLake Farms" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>Although PP could come in handy, say for identifying a particular key, I
see
>no advantage to it over relative pitch. As far as it having negatives,
such
>as knowing when something is not in tune, the same is also true of relative
>pitch. This is what bothers me when I hear something out of tune
>(relatively). I don't have to know the name of the key (which is really
>arbitrary anyway). To what tolerance is PP? How many cents are we talking
>about. At what point centswise does something not exactly in tune bother
>you? I don't think this will change with practice. If it doesn't bother
>you now, I dont think it would with pitch practice.
>
>I do think what is really important is ear training, especially in jazz
>where you have all types of subtle voicings and progressions to create a
>harmony behind a melody or just walls of color. All the voicings have a
>different "sound" and what you leave out as well as how you move between
>changes makes a big difference. For me this was the most important part
of
>learning music since it gets more deeply into the artistic aspects. I do
>believe one with a decent ear can learn to identify these textures or
>"sounds." There was a good book on voicings, by Dan Haerle I believe, used
>at NTSU.
>MHO,
>Edna
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4490ae93$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> I'm already pretty good with all that, for the most part. I mean if a
song
>> is in a normal major or minor key, for the most part I can, given the
>first
>> chord, fairly much fudge my way through it first bash, assuming I've heard
>> the song enough to be able to remember it. I can usually accurately guess
>> most standard chord changes, and can also deal with most of the typical
>modifications
>> to normal keys used in pop songs... say incorporating chords like G major
>> or D major into a song in E major for example. All that stuff is fairly
>second
>> nature, as I learned originally by ear using the Suzuki method. I was
>working
>> out songs off the radio at age ten, so I've pretty much got that down,
but
>> I do need a starting key.
>>
>> The issue is that I'm bored with it all I guess, and I want more new
>ground
>> to explore. Anything I already know the sound of, I know the sound of.
;o)
>> I want to do things that I don't know the sound of, that is unusual, and
>> for that I'm going to have to do a lot more ear training. I want to master
>> jazz, and I'd like to be able to just imagine a chord that I want to hear,
>> and play it... and with jazz that means not just major and minor and
the
>> odd seventh or sixth, but 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, diminished, augmented, and
>> every other variation... and not necessarily chords with simple obvious
>> relationships to the current chord or key, but often parts that fit in
>very
>> odd ways. This is all stuff I'm not used to. This is all stuff which is
>hard
>> for me with just relative pitch, so I'm going to have to do some training
>> anyhow. I figure it's worth exploring perfect pitch as an option.
>>
>> The thing is, I figure, there is evidence that you can train perfect
>pitch,
>> and if you can, I want it. ;o)
>>
>> I'm thinking that, while to a degree it would be possible, to train my
>relative
>> pitch up to a standard where I can immediately recognise any chord at
all
>> from a given known starting point, that it would be the long road. If
>there's
>> a chance of circumventing the process by aquiring perfect pitch, then
I'm
>> willing to do that. The question is how much effort will it take to get
>the
>> skills to the point where any sound I hear in my head will be immediately
>> translated to an actual note.
>>
>> In any case, the perfect pitch training I'm doing is certainly aiding
my
>> relative pitch skills also. A lot of the note guessing is done using
>relative
>> pitch, so I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone. When I'm finished,
>> my ear will have improved in both relative pitch and perfect pitch, so
>that's
>> got to be a good thing. If all I acheive is the ability to pick any
>interval,
>> first guess, every time, using relative pitch, even intervals of several
>> octaves, well, that will be a significant improvement, but if I can aquire
>> perfect pitch, all the better.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> >Kim,
>> >
>> > Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
>> >identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very
>useful
>>
>> >to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you
>can
>>
>> >learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to identify
>>
>> >intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I tried
>> to
>> >get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for
them
>>
>> >and then have them identify the chords that followed just by listening.
>>
>> >Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
>> >
>> >Good luck,
>> >
>> >Sarah
>> >www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
>> >
>> >
>> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:448feeb1$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day
>>
>> >> spread
>> >> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about
>95%
>> >> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic
>>
>> >> scale,
>> >> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last
>couple
>> >> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black
>>
>> >> notes).
>> >> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place
>> for
>> >> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through
>them.
>> >> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and
>> just
>> >> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more.
The
>>
>> >> instant
>> >> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back
up
>>
>> >> again,
>> >> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures
>contributing
>> >> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even
>more
>> >> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval,
>> so
>> >> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
>> >> assistance"
>> >> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident
I'm
>>
>> >> getting
>> >> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know
what
>> it
>> >> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
>> >>
>> >> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for,
>and
>> >> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot
of
>>
>> >> controversy
>> >> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be
born
>>
>> >> with
>> >> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in
>the
>> >> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed
>> it
>> >> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence
of
>>
>> >> people
>> >> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through
>> with
>> >> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my
>ear,
>> >> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the
>ability,
>> >> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
>> >>
>> >> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which
have
>>
>> >> given
>> >> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my
>head
>> >> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head
an
>>
>> >> listening
>> >> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A.
>Followed
>> >> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G
to
>> F#
>> >> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked
>>
>> >> later
>> >> and sure enough I was dead on.
>> >>
>> >> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which
I
>>
>> >> also
>> >> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which
>> I
>> >> sensed
>> >> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
>> >> keyboard
>> >> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
>> >>
>> >> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs
>> as
>> >> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out
of
>>
>> >> that,
>> >> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to
>me...
>> >> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is.
>It's
>> >> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating
>between
>> >> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's
>>
>> >> enough
>> >> to give me confidence that I should continue.
>> >>
>> >> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about
>>
>> >> whether
>> >> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My
>feeling
>> >> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at
a
>later
>> >> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long
>after
>> >> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that
>> I'm
>> >> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also.
>> I'm
>> >> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old
>way.
>> >> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
>> >> whereas
>> >> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence
I
>> am
>> >> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but
>basically
>> >> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something
>> is
>> >> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if
>I'm
>> >> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
>> >> things,
>> >> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out
of
>> key
>> >> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with
>> some
>> >> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and
>simply
>> >> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives.
>> I'm
>> >> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I
can
>> be
>> >> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
>> >>
>> >> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
>> >>
>> >> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I
can
>>
>> >> explain
>> >> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in
>fact,
>> >> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
>> >>
>> >> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me.
Some
>>
>> >> are
>> >> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others
>still
>> >> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming
>increasingly
>> >> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I
>don't.
>> >> ;o)
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Kim.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69363 is a reply to message #69358] |
Fri, 16 June 2006 05:54 |
Edna Sloan
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Will it sounds like you are somewhere between RP and PP, i.e., you have
better than RP but not quite PP. As to whether PP can actually be learned,
I have heard it both ways. A very great guitarist I know claims he did and
that NTSU offers a course in it. He explained it as if different pitches
have a "color" that you can learn to hear, just as you recognize different
literal colors. In any case, I don't see how practice could hurt.
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:449222aa$1@linux...
>
>
> The thing is I guess that the program I'm using will be helping my
relative
> pitch also. Indeed Chris Latham argued that that is possibly all it is
doing.
> I mean it just feeds me random notes, and some of the time I clearly use
> relative pitch to work out which note it is. How much of the time? Who
knows?
> The first note is certainly harder than later notes.
>
> If I can get to pretty much 100% hit rate on the program, and find I still
> don't have perfect pitch, at least I'll know that my relative pitch is
second
> to none, and at least in that I will have acheived something.
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
> "RiverLake Farms" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
> >Although PP could come in handy, say for identifying a particular key, I
> see
> >no advantage to it over relative pitch. As far as it having negatives,
> such
> >as knowing when something is not in tune, the same is also true of
relative
> >pitch. This is what bothers me when I hear something out of tune
> >(relatively). I don't have to know the name of the key (which is really
> >arbitrary anyway). To what tolerance is PP? How many cents are we
talking
> >about. At what point centswise does something not exactly in tune bother
> >you? I don't think this will change with practice. If it doesn't bother
> >you now, I dont think it would with pitch practice.
> >
> >I do think what is really important is ear training, especially in jazz
> >where you have all types of subtle voicings and progressions to create a
> >harmony behind a melody or just walls of color. All the voicings have a
> >different "sound" and what you leave out as well as how you move between
> >changes makes a big difference. For me this was the most important part
> of
> >learning music since it gets more deeply into the artistic aspects. I do
> >believe one with a decent ear can learn to identify these textures or
> >"sounds." There was a good book on voicings, by Dan Haerle I believe,
used
> >at NTSU.
> >MHO,
> >Edna
> >
> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4490ae93$1@linux...
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm already pretty good with all that, for the most part. I mean if a
> song
> >> is in a normal major or minor key, for the most part I can, given the
> >first
> >> chord, fairly much fudge my way through it first bash, assuming I've
heard
> >> the song enough to be able to remember it. I can usually accurately
guess
> >> most standard chord changes, and can also deal with most of the typical
> >modifications
> >> to normal keys used in pop songs... say incorporating chords like G
major
> >> or D major into a song in E major for example. All that stuff is fairly
> >second
> >> nature, as I learned originally by ear using the Suzuki method. I was
> >working
> >> out songs off the radio at age ten, so I've pretty much got that down,
> but
> >> I do need a starting key.
> >>
> >> The issue is that I'm bored with it all I guess, and I want more new
> >ground
> >> to explore. Anything I already know the sound of, I know the sound of.
> ;o)
> >> I want to do things that I don't know the sound of, that is unusual,
and
> >> for that I'm going to have to do a lot more ear training. I want to
master
> >> jazz, and I'd like to be able to just imagine a chord that I want to
hear,
> >> and play it... and with jazz that means not just major and minor and
> the
> >> odd seventh or sixth, but 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, diminished, augmented,
and
> >> every other variation... and not necessarily chords with simple
obvious
> >> relationships to the current chord or key, but often parts that fit in
> >very
> >> odd ways. This is all stuff I'm not used to. This is all stuff which is
> >hard
> >> for me with just relative pitch, so I'm going to have to do some
training
> >> anyhow. I figure it's worth exploring perfect pitch as an option.
> >>
> >> The thing is, I figure, there is evidence that you can train perfect
> >pitch,
> >> and if you can, I want it. ;o)
> >>
> >> I'm thinking that, while to a degree it would be possible, to train my
> >relative
> >> pitch up to a standard where I can immediately recognise any chord at
> all
> >> from a given known starting point, that it would be the long road. If
> >there's
> >> a chance of circumventing the process by aquiring perfect pitch, then
> I'm
> >> willing to do that. The question is how much effort will it take to get
> >the
> >> skills to the point where any sound I hear in my head will be
immediately
> >> translated to an actual note.
> >>
> >> In any case, the perfect pitch training I'm doing is certainly aiding
> my
> >> relative pitch skills also. A lot of the note guessing is done using
> >relative
> >> pitch, so I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone. When I'm
finished,
> >> my ear will have improved in both relative pitch and perfect pitch, so
> >that's
> >> got to be a good thing. If all I acheive is the ability to pick any
> >interval,
> >> first guess, every time, using relative pitch, even intervals of
several
> >> octaves, well, that will be a significant improvement, but if I can
aquire
> >> perfect pitch, all the better.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Kim.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> >> >Kim,
> >> >
> >> > Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
> >> >identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very
> >useful
> >>
> >> >to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you
> >can
> >>
> >> >learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to
identify
> >>
> >> >intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I
tried
> >> to
> >> >get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for
> them
> >>
> >> >and then have them identify the chords that followed just by
listening.
> >>
> >> >Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
> >> >
> >> >Good luck,
> >> >
> >> >Sarah
> >> >www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:448feeb1$1@linux...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a
day
> >>
> >> >> spread
> >> >> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about
> >95%
> >> >> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full
chromatic
> >>
> >> >> scale,
> >> >> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last
> >couple
> >> >> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the
black
> >>
> >> >> notes).
> >> >> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into
place
> >> for
> >> >> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through
> >them.
> >> >> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time
and
> >> just
> >> >> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more.
> The
> >>
> >> >> instant
> >> >> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back
> up
> >>
> >> >> again,
> >> >> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures
> >contributing
> >> >> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even
> >more
> >> >> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple
interval,
> >> so
> >> >> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
> >> >> assistance"
> >> >> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident
> I'm
> >>
> >> >> getting
> >> >> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know
> what
> >> it
> >> >> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for,
> >and
> >> >> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot
> of
> >>
> >> >> controversy
> >> >> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be
> born
> >>
> >> >> with
> >> >> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in
> >the
> >> >> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have
developed
> >> it
> >> >> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence
> of
> >>
> >> >> people
> >> >> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling
through
> >> with
> >> >> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my
> >ear,
> >> >> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the
> >ability,
> >> >> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which
> have
> >>
> >> >> given
> >> >> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my
> >head
> >> >> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head
> an
> >>
> >> >> listening
> >> >> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A.
> >Followed
> >> >> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G
> to
> >> F#
> >> >> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it".
Checked
> >>
> >> >> later
> >> >> and sure enough I was dead on.
> >> >>
> >> >> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which
> I
> >>
> >> >> also
> >> >> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car
which
> >> I
> >> >> sensed
> >> >> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
> >> >> keyboard
> >> >> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
> >> >>
> >> >> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other
songs
> >> as
> >> >> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out
> of
> >>
> >> >> that,
> >> >> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to
> >me...
> >> >> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is.
> >It's
> >> >> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating
> >between
> >> >> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and
it's
> >>
> >> >> enough
> >> >> to give me confidence that I should continue.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here,
about
> >>
> >> >> whether
> >> >> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My
> >feeling
> >> >> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at
> a
> >later
> >> >> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long
> >after
> >> >> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music,
that
> >> I'm
> >> >> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me
also.
> >> I'm
> >> >> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old
> >way.
> >> >> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
> >> >> whereas
> >> >> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence
> I
> >> am
> >> >> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but
> >basically
> >> >> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when
something
> >> is
> >> >> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if
> >I'm
> >> >> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
> >> >> things,
> >> >> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out
> of
> >> key
> >> >> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble
with
> >> some
> >> >> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and
> >simply
> >> >> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of
negatives.
> >> I'm
> >> >> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I
> can
> >> be
> >> >> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
> >> >>
> >> >> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
> >> >>
> >> >> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I
> can
> >>
> >> >> explain
> >> >> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in
> >fact,
> >> >> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
> >> >>
> >> >> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me.
> Some
> >>
> >> >> are
> >> >> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others
> >still
> >> >> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming
> >increasingly
> >> >> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I
> >don't.
> >> >> ;o)
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> Kim.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69364 is a reply to message #69363] |
Fri, 16 June 2006 06:02 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I am beginning to recognise these colors. Colors is an interesting word.
I read it somewhere described as having a "chroma". Personally, while I see
some truth in all these words, I'd also add that different notes have their
own "feel". E feels different to Eb. For a good example, Eb has a darkness
to it that neither E nor D share. D is a hard one. It's a kinda neutral note
to me, though it does have it's own thing, but the thing is similar to the
thing of a number of other different notes. I get it confused with C sometimes
because C is so "central" whereas D is quite "neutral". E certainly is a
note unto itself, though B shares some of E's qualities, but B is definately
darker/more mellow. I've gotten E and B confused a few times I've noticed,
especially if I'm not using relative pitch to aid me at the time.
The thing is, while the confidence in my statements about these notes would
make it sound like I have a clear grasp, I don't feel that I do quite yet.
Well, I kind of do. I'm getting the feeling at the moment that I'm doing
ok at recognising the qualities of the notes, but what I need to learn is
to actually listen for these qualities. I have experienced a lifetime of
listening simply for relative pitch, and in that have learned quite well
to ignore the note colors. I'm fighting to break that habit. The habit of
listening to the relative pitches and trying to guess from there.
But I can hear it, I'm confident of that. I'm just trying to work out how
to make myself more aware of it, and more focussed on it. There are 12 notes,
and there are a number of them I don't have a grasp on yet, and some I have
far more of a grasp than others. There's only a few I feel I really know.
Cheers,
Kim.
"RiverLake Farms" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>Will it sounds like you are somewhere between RP and PP, i.e., you have
>better than RP but not quite PP. As to whether PP can actually be learned,
>I have heard it both ways. A very great guitarist I know claims he did
and
>that NTSU offers a course in it. He explained it as if different pitches
>have a "color" that you can learn to hear, just as you recognize different
>literal colors. In any case, I don't see how practice could hurt.
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:449222aa$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> The thing is I guess that the program I'm using will be helping my
>relative
>> pitch also. Indeed Chris Latham argued that that is possibly all it is
>doing.
>> I mean it just feeds me random notes, and some of the time I clearly use
>> relative pitch to work out which note it is. How much of the time? Who
>knows?
>> The first note is certainly harder than later notes.
>>
>> If I can get to pretty much 100% hit rate on the program, and find I still
>> don't have perfect pitch, at least I'll know that my relative pitch is
>second
>> to none, and at least in that I will have acheived something.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>>
>> "RiverLake Farms" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>> >Although PP could come in handy, say for identifying a particular key,
I
>> see
>> >no advantage to it over relative pitch. As far as it having negatives,
>> such
>> >as knowing when something is not in tune, the same is also true of
>relative
>> >pitch. This is what bothers me when I hear something out of tune
>> >(relatively). I don't have to know the name of the key (which is really
>> >arbitrary anyway). To what tolerance is PP? How many cents are we
>talking
>> >about. At what point centswise does something not exactly in tune bother
>> >you? I don't think this will change with practice. If it doesn't bother
>> >you now, I dont think it would with pitch practice.
>> >
>> >I do think what is really important is ear training, especially in jazz
>> >where you have all types of subtle voicings and progressions to create
a
>> >harmony behind a melody or just walls of color. All the voicings have
a
>> >different "sound" and what you leave out as well as how you move between
>> >changes makes a big difference. For me this was the most important
part
>> of
>> >learning music since it gets more deeply into the artistic aspects.
I do
>> >believe one with a decent ear can learn to identify these textures or
>> >"sounds." There was a good book on voicings, by Dan Haerle I believe,
>used
>> >at NTSU.
>> >MHO,
>> >Edna
>> >
>> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4490ae93$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm already pretty good with all that, for the most part. I mean if
a
>> song
>> >> is in a normal major or minor key, for the most part I can, given the
>> >first
>> >> chord, fairly much fudge my way through it first bash, assuming I've
>heard
>> >> the song enough to be able to remember it. I can usually accurately
>guess
>> >> most standard chord changes, and can also deal with most of the typical
>> >modifications
>> >> to normal keys used in pop songs... say incorporating chords like
G
>major
>> >> or D major into a song in E major for example. All that stuff is fairly
>> >second
>> >> nature, as I learned originally by ear using the Suzuki method. I was
>> >working
>> >> out songs off the radio at age ten, so I've pretty much got that down,
>> but
>> >> I do need a starting key.
>> >>
>> >> The issue is that I'm bored with it all I guess, and I want more new
>> >ground
>> >> to explore. Anything I already know the sound of, I know the sound
of.
>> ;o)
>> >> I want to do things that I don't know the sound of, that is unusual,
>and
>> >> for that I'm going to have to do a lot more ear training. I want to
>master
>> >> jazz, and I'd like to be able to just imagine a chord that I want to
>hear,
>> >> and play it... and with jazz that means not just major and minor and
>> the
>> >> odd seventh or sixth, but 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, diminished, augmented,
>and
>> >> every other variation... and not necessarily chords with simple
>obvious
>> >> relationships to the current chord or key, but often parts that fit
in
>> >very
>> >> odd ways. This is all stuff I'm not used to. This is all stuff which
is
>> >hard
>> >> for me with just relative pitch, so I'm going to have to do some
>training
>> >> anyhow. I figure it's worth exploring perfect pitch as an option.
>> >>
>> >> The thing is, I figure, there is evidence that you can train perfect
>> >pitch,
>> >> and if you can, I want it. ;o)
>> >>
>> >> I'm thinking that, while to a degree it would be possible, to train
my
>> >relative
>> >> pitch up to a standard where I can immediately recognise any chord
at
>> all
>> >> from a given known starting point, that it would be the long road.
If
>> >there's
>> >> a chance of circumventing the process by aquiring perfect pitch, then
>> I'm
>> >> willing to do that. The question is how much effort will it take to
get
>> >the
>> >> skills to the point where any sound I hear in my head will be
>immediately
>> >> translated to an actual note.
>> >>
>> >> In any case, the perfect pitch training I'm doing is certainly aiding
>> my
>> >> relative pitch skills also. A lot of the note guessing is done using
>> >relative
>> >> pitch, so I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone. When I'm
>finished,
>> >> my ear will have improved in both relative pitch and perfect pitch,
so
>> >that's
>> >> got to be a good thing. If all I acheive is the ability to pick any
>> >interval,
>> >> first guess, every time, using relative pitch, even intervals of
>several
>> >> octaves, well, that will be a significant improvement, but if I can
>aquire
>> >> perfect pitch, all the better.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Kim.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> >> >Kim,
>> >> >
>> >> > Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability
to
>> >> >identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very
>> >useful
>> >>
>> >> >to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if
you
>> >can
>> >>
>> >> >learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to
>identify
>> >>
>> >> >intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned.
I
>tried
>> >> to
>> >> >get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for
>> them
>> >>
>> >> >and then have them identify the chords that followed just by
>listening.
>> >>
>> >> >Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
>> >> >
>> >> >Good luck,
>> >> >
>> >> >Sarah
>> >> >www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:448feeb1$1@linux...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour
a
>day
>> >>
>> >> >> spread
>> >> >> out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about
>> >95%
>> >> >> correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full
>chromatic
>> >>
>> >> >> scale,
>> >> >> which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last
>> >couple
>> >> >> of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the
>black
>> >>
>> >> >> notes).
>> >> >> All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into
>place
>> >> for
>> >> >> a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through
>> >them.
>> >> >> Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time
>and
>> >> just
>> >> >> go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more.
>> The
>> >>
>> >> >> instant
>> >> >> response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back
>> up
>> >>
>> >> >> again,
>> >> >> and I'm quite happy with my progress.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures
>> >contributing
>> >> >> to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or
even
>> >more
>> >> >> in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple
>interval,
>> >> so
>> >> >> on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
>> >> >> assistance"
>> >> >> my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident
>> I'm
>> >>
>> >> >> getting
>> >> >> the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know
>> what
>> >> it
>> >> >> is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look
for,
>> >and
>> >> >> whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a
lot
>> of
>> >>
>> >> >> controversy
>> >> >> around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must
be
>> born
>> >>
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying
in
>> >the
>> >> >> face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have
>developed
>> >> it
>> >> >> late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence
>> of
>> >>
>> >> >> people
>> >> >> who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling
>through
>> >> with
>> >> >> lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train
my
>> >ear,
>> >> >> based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the
>> >ability,
>> >> >> and I think I'm starting to hear something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which
>> have
>> >>
>> >> >> given
>> >> >> me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in
my
>> >head
>> >> >> (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head
>> an
>> >>
>> >> >> listening
>> >> >> to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A.
>> >Followed
>> >> >> the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past
G
>> to
>> >> F#
>> >> >> and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it".
>Checked
>> >>
>> >> >> later
>> >> >> and sure enough I was dead on.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which
>> I
>> >>
>> >> >> also
>> >> >> worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car
>which
>> >> I
>> >> >> sensed
>> >> >> were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near
a
>> >> >> keyboard
>> >> >> I checked and sure enough was bang on.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other
>songs
>> >> as
>> >> >> reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out
>> of
>> >>
>> >> >> that,
>> >> >> and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come
to
>> >me...
>> >> >> that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it
is.
>> >It's
>> >> >> a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating
>> >between
>> >> >> them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and
>it's
>> >>
>> >> >> enough
>> >> >> to give me confidence that I should continue.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here,
>about
>> >>
>> >> >> whether
>> >> >> it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My
>> >feeling
>> >> >> on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill
at
>> a
>> >later
>> >> >> stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long
>> >after
>> >> >> learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music,
>that
>> >> I'm
>> >> >> hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me
>also.
>> >> I'm
>> >> >> hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my
old
>> >way.
>> >> >> I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on
it,
>> >> >> whereas
>> >> >> I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence
>> I
>> >> am
>> >> >> picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but
>> >basically
>> >> >> turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when
>something
>> >> is
>> >> >> off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell
if
>> >I'm
>> >> >> right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about
such
>> >> >> things,
>> >> >> and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out
>> of
>> >> key
>> >> >> parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble
>with
>> >> some
>> >> >> things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds
and
>> >simply
>> >> >> use it when they want, and experience little in the way of
>negatives.
>> >> I'm
>> >> >> hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that
I
>> can
>> >> be
>> >> >> one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that
I
>> can
>> >>
>> >> >> explain
>> >> >> to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that,
in
>> >fact,
>> >> >> it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me.
>> Some
>> >>
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others
>> >still
>> >> >> are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming
>> >increasingly
>> >> >> confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if
I
>> >don't.
>> >> >> ;o)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >> Kim.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Perfect Pitch saga continues... [message #69503 is a reply to message #69328] |
Mon, 19 June 2006 12:08 |
tonehouse
Messages: 184
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi folks...You can "learn" relative pitch ..such as a 440 tuning fork
tone..if you hear it over and over again...now whether you can discern "339"
or "441" is very doubtful...Perfect Pitch would be someone who can name
EXACT frequencies...without hearing ANY pitch reference...I am a piano tuner
so A - 440 is "Drilled" into my sub-conscious...and I can tune a guitar to
440
no problem...but that is "relative pitch"..Like someone else noted,learning
the intervals in Music, is way more important that naming a
frequency...unless you are a sound guy ,trying to find feedback from a sound
system,or a Mastering Engineer to find offending frequencies by ear..As far
as "colors" of notes go..that is a very old
concept,dating back to the 1600's,before any "equal temperment" was set as a
"standard"...there were many different early "temperments",based on
feelings,colors,etc....cheers
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:4490a2c3$1@linux...
> Kim,
>
> Personally, I don't want perfect pitch. However, the ability to
> identify intervals and chords by ear is something that has been very
useful
> to me both in learning, teaching, and performing. I don't know if you can
> learn "perfect pitch" or not, but I have taught many students to identify
> intervals and chords, so I know "relative pitch" can be learned. I tried
to
> get my students to the point where I could play and name a chord for them
> and then have them identify the chords that followed just by listening.
> Some got there and some didn't, but all made some progress.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Sarah
> www.sarahtonin.com/wayward.htm
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:448feeb1$1@linux...
> >
> >
> > Well, I'm slugging away on this little app, doing maybe an hour a day
> > spread
> > out, hearing notes, guessing notes, pressing notes... getting about 95%
> > correct most of the time, though I'm still not using the full chromatic
> > scale,
> > which brings me down to about 85%. I'm using C major, or the last couple
> > of days D major. And also using Eb minor pentatonic (ie all the black
> > notes).
> > All in all though, I get these patches where it just falls into place
for
> > a bit and I get like 50 notes correct in a row, just flying through
them.
> > Over the last week I've really tried to speed up my response time and
just
> > go with my gut feeling, and I'm finding it's working more and more. The
> > instant
> > response brought my score down a lot when I started, but it's back up
> > again,
> > and I'm quite happy with my progress.
> >
> > Of course, there's plenty of relative pitch in my 95% figures
contributing
> > to them, and sometimes the program plays the same note twice or even
more
> > in a row, or an octave, or a semitone, or some other simple interval, so
> > on sheer "instant response pitch guessing without relative or other
> > assistance"
> > my score wouldn't be that high, but at the same time I'm confident I'm
> > getting
> > the hang of it. Often my relative pitch is thrown and I don't know what
it
> > is, yet my gut feel gets it right mostly.
> >
> > I've been reading all over the net for clues as to what to look for, and
> > whether indeed it is possible to develop it. There's certainly a lot of
> > controversy
> > around the topic. Many claim it can't be learned, that you must be born
> > with
> > it, some of whom have tried out one course or another, but flying in the
> > face of this are a few examples of people who claim to have developed it
> > late in life, or know people who have. I'm finding little evidence of
> > people
> > who devloped it from any course however, so I'm just battling through
with
> > lots of testing myself, and using my own methods to try and train my
ear,
> > based on what I'm hearing is the experience of those who have the
ability,
> > and I think I'm starting to hear something.
> >
> > I've had a few good experiences over the past couple of days which have
> > given
> > me hope. The first was that somehow Abba's Waterloo got stuck in my head
> > (no, that didn't give me hope) and upon slowing it down in my head an
> > listening
> > to the notes I guessed the two notes of "Waterloo" were B and A.
Followed
> > the rest of the melody "Couldn't escape if I wanted to" down past G to
F#
> > and back to G and went "Yep, that's it. That's definately it". Checked
> > later
> > and sure enough I was dead on.
> >
> > I had another experience today where I heard another song in D which I
> > also
> > worked out, and heard two tunes on the way back home in the car which I
> > sensed
> > were in A, and could hear the notes of the riff. When I got near a
> > keyboard
> > I checked and sure enough was bang on.
> >
> > For a long while I've been able to work out keys by using other songs as
> > reference points... imagining a known song and getting a note out of
> > that,
> > and comparing. Now I'm finding however that the notes just come to me...
> > that I can hear the quality of the note, and know what note it is. It's
> > a different thing. I'm remembering the notes, and differentiating
between
> > them. It's only a vague sense at this stage, but it's there, and it's
> > enough
> > to give me confidence that I should continue.
> >
> > There is also a lot of controversy, as mentioned by our AA here, about
> > whether
> > it's a good thing all round to even have perfect pitch at all. My
feeling
> > on this is that, as a person who (hopefully) develops the skill at a
later
> > stage in life, long after developing my relative pitch skills, long
after
> > learning to play, and long after establishing my taste in music, that
I'm
> > hoping that I can take all the old stuff I have learned with me also.
I'm
> > hoping that, for example, I will be able to transpose a tune my old way.
> > I'm thinking that those born with perfect pitch come to rely on it,
> > whereas
> > I am unlikely to, as I have learned to do without it already. Hence I am
> > picturing that I should be able to use it when appropriate, but
basically
> > turn it off when I don't need it, or at least ignore it when something
is
> > off key and just listen "how I used to"... though time will tell if I'm
> > right. In any case, I've heard a lot of different stories about such
> > things,
> > and how differently some possesors of perfect pitch respond to out of
key
> > parts, transposition, and similar such things. Some have trouble with
some
> > things and not others. Some seem to have the best of all worlds and
simply
> > use it when they want, and experience little in the way of negatives.
I'm
> > hoping, seeing as how I know how to live without it already, that I can
be
> > one of those who doesn't experience too many negatives from it...
> >
> > ...assuming I aquire the skill at all.
> >
> > I really am starting to feel that want to aquire it just so that I can
> > explain
> > to all the people I've seen post that "It can't be learned" that, in
fact,
> > it can. I'd like to sort that one out at least.
> >
> > The point is though, that notes and keys do sound different to me. Some
> > are
> > more happy, and bright, where others are mellow and soft, and others
still
> > are, well, kinda rounded. I'm hearing this, and I'm becoming
increasingly
> > confident that my training is increasing my perception of this.
> >
> > I'm going to have to do this, because I'll look like a goose if I don't.
> > ;o)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kim.
>
>
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