Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Bomb attacks in London England
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55712 is a reply to message #55647] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 09:41   |
![Deej [3] is currently offline](/theme/PARIS_Forum_Template/images/offline.png "Deej [3] is currently offline")
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
n universities and I met quite a few
of
> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and would
> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared a lot
> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming increasing
> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were the
ones
> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
>
> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away from
> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene. My
> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas, had a
> big house and invited me to live with them while I established myself.
> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the film
and
> music industry and their kids.
> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture that
was
> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the rest of
> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The decadence
> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it wasn't
cool
> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew some
> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the ranch
> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader, was in
> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my
cousins
> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson who had
> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people you can
> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
lifestyle
> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
>
> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du jour* I
> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving women)
> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and abortions
> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the various
> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro American
> citizens
> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war protests
> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
>
> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major
degree
> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics. This
> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of career
path
> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my way
> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
>
> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to Mexico. I
> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place during my
> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a deserted
place
> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I have met
> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same kind of
> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, Katmandhu,
> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
destinations.
> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by a
Zapotec
> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two of
which
> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small
village
> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good part of
my
> life in this place and lived with this family during those times from 1973
> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be and
now
> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the story
> about thie place.
> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You may
have
> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but I have
> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have the
time.
> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a question
> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if you are
> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my home and
is
> still my second home-
>
> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up and
> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young
woman,
> Claudia is the
> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests at my
> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the events
> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad drug
> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the social
> experiment that is
> happening there.
>
> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
>
> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and what the
> place was like the last time I was there.
>
> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
>
> more to come......
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d45df1@linux...
> >
> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize you.
> >
> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
something.
> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
> >
> > *shakes head in disbelief*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >DJ
> > >
> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:42d45332$1@linux...
> > >>
> > >> you know how i meant it.
> > >>
> > >> whatever.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would learn
> from
> > >> the
> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> doug,
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> regards,
> > >> >> derek
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> > http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
> > >seriously.............
> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real proactive
> > with
> > >> >their
> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in Holland
these
> > >days
> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny about how
> > the
> > >> >Euro's
> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then when the
> chips
> > >> >are
> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective asses
and
> > >watch
> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh shit!!!!
> > >> >.......those
> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and spoiled
all
> > >our
> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam and
pick
> > up
> > >> a
> > >> >> few
> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who are
dying
> > of
> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to his
> > >violations
> > >> >> of
> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting the
flies
> > off
> > >> >their
> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
> disentery.........and
> > >> >just
> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. Whaddaya say
> > >guys?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your 3rd &
> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most evil
> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I find it
> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be the
> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was really
> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into Iraq...
> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the Iraqi's
> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda against
> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to being
> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only thing
> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit their
> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a good
> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs
> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an Islamic
city.
> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another embassy? OK,
> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this time.
> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before we
> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good long
> > >> >> >> time.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Neil
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Neil
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US - big US
> > oil
> > >> >> >companies.
> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in bombed
> > >> >pipelines
> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was about
> > >> >destabilizing
> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
billions
> > for
> > >> >> >George's
> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt the US
> > the
> > >> >same
> > >> >> >> way
> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as payback
> > for
> > >> >> >Israeli/US
> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending him or
> his
> > >> >agenda
> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and our
> > >so-called
> > >> >> >friends
> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt the US
> > >> >government
> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money as
> possible
> > >> to
> > >> >> >their
> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and military
> > >> >contracts,
> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
social
> > >> >> >safety-net
> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
directly
> > >with
> > >> >> high
> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back to
the
> > >early
> > >> >> >1900s
> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
> ideology)
> > >> is
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public simply
> > >can't
> > >> >> >afford
> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
bankrupt
> > the
> > >> US
> > >> >> >government
> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and he's
> doing
> > >> a
> > >> >great
> > >> >> >> >job.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives don't
> seem
> > >> to
> > >> >> >consider.
> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth
> through
> > >> >> >taxation,
> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
nobodies
> > >wealth
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks the
> economy.
> > >> >> Why?
> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend 100%
of
> > >every
> > >> >> >dollar
> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally spend
> > >every
> > >> >> red
> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his rich
> > >friends,
> > >> >> >the
> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save and
> > >> >government
> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting of
> America.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction that
> the
> > >> US
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> >> heading
> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same agenda.
> There's
> > >> no
> > >> >> >success
> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you how
> > >> >heartbroken
> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've
> always
> > >> >> >believed
> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are very
> > >> >worrisome
> > >> >> >> >times.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this
> > >> >senselessness
> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >All the best,
> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do not,
> > >however,
> > >> >> >agree
> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done no
good
> > at
> > >> all
> > >> >> >(my
> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those opposed to
> > the
> > >> war
> > >> >> >feel
> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay could have
> > >easily
> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the border in
> Syria
> > >> or
> > >> >> in
> > >> >> >> >the
> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think this story
is
> > >over
> > >> >> >yet.
> > >> >> >> >I
> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want it to
be
> > >over
> > >> >> so
> > >> >> >> they
> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all the
while
> > >> >bellowing
> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any found,
> > >therefore,
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> >> >war
> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's absolute
lowest
> > >> >partisan
> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
resolutions
> > and
> > >> in
> > >> >> >doing
> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven menace
to
> > >> >stability
> > >> >> >> >in
> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't happened? I
> > >don't
> > >> >> >know,
> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
shooting
> > >down
> > >> >> one
> > >> >> >> >of
> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we would
> have
> > >> >done
> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't give a
> damn
> > >> >about
> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping Sadaam
in
> > >power
> > >> >> >was
> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I guarantee we
> would
> > >> >have
> > >> >> >> half
> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the pipelines and
> > >> >> >infrastructure
> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry as a
> bone
> > >> as
> > >> >> we
> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans aren't
> subtle.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>Deej
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only ones on
> > >earth
> > >> >> who
> > >> >> >> >saw
> > >> >> >> >>> any
> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I *hate*
the
> > way
> > >> >they
> > >> >> >> >went
> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing (which
> > was
> > >> >> >clearly
> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB and co
> > >wanted
> > >> >> >Saddam
> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but
because
> > >they
> > >> >> >noticed
> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing" Iraq
> would
> > >> >give
> > >> >> >> >them
> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those events,
> > >> >> >politically,
> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for their own
> > >agenda,
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> >> >not
> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of the
> public.
> > >> It
> > >> >> >was
> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think "free
Iraq
> > >from
> > >> >> >tyranny"
> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public don't
> seem
> > >> to
> > >> >> care
> > >> >> >> >if
> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so you have
> > to
> > >> tell
> > >> >> >them
> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied about that
> > I
> > >> >*almost*
> > >> >> >> >>would
> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't have
> stomached
> > >> >that
> > >> >> >> >as
> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I think if
the
> > >U.S.
> > >> >> had
> > >> >> >> >>waited
> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the U.N.
> that
> > >> >> >eventually
> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think GWB & co
> > >> >actually
> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone they
could
> > be
> > >> in
> > >> >> >> >>charge,
> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as the
> country
> > >> was
> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a matter
of
> > >time
> > >> >> >before
> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could only
> > >> >> >procrastinate
> > >> >> >> >>for
> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching. A
whole
> > >swag
> > >> >> of
> > >> >> >> >>countries
> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a little
> more".
> > >> Sure
> > >> >> it
> > >> >> >> >was
> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have been
> worth
> > >> it.
> > >> >> >The
> > >> >> >> >>way
> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was just
> hell
> > >> bent
> > >> >> on
> > >> >> >> >war
> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little longer
> > >would
> > >> >> have
> > >> >> >> >>made
> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether the
> U.N.
> > >> >> >actually
> > >> >> >> >>ended
> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main group. DOH
> > >DOH!!
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:42d69931@linux...
sorry to dissect your story like this, but I'm just responding to current
events:
> We have been attacked.
not by Iraq
Its interesting that you say both this:
> Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
and this:
> I've got news for you. No matter how bad you want to believe it, there is
> no
> international law.These are not contradictory at all. If anything the repeated bunglings and
inaction by the UN have proven this beyond the shadow of a dowbt. Theie is
no international law. If there was, Sadaam would have been deposed *by the
UN* the minute he violated the sanctions. Unfortunately he was encouraged in
his violations by the very organization that imposed the sanctions in the
first place. This organization no longer has the authority to call itself a
law making body. It is an anachronistic joke.
"justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
news:42d69b22$1@linux...
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:42d69931@linux...
>
> sorry to dissect your story like this, but I'm just responding to current
> events:
>
> > We have been attacked.
>
> not by Iraq
>
> Its interesting that you say both this:
>
> > Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
>
> and this:
>
> > I've got news for you. No matter how bad you want to believe it, there
is
> > no
> > international law.
>
>"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:42d69dd7@linux...
> These are not contradictory at all. If anything the repeated bunglings and
> inaction by the UN have proven this beyond the shadow of a dowbt. Theie is
> no international law. If there was, Sadaam would have been deposed *by the
> UN* the minute he violated the sanctions. Unfortunately he was encouraged
> in
> his violations by the very organization that imposed the sanctions in the
> first place. This organization no longer has the authority to call itself
> a
> law making body. It is an anachronistic joke.
I understand that point, but why do you then use 'Saddam was in violation of
UN sanctions' as your primary justification for war?
> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
> news:42d69b22$1@linux...
>>
>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> news:42d69931@linux...
>>
>> sorry to dissect your story like this, but I'm just responding to current
>> events:
>>
>> > We have been attacked.
>>
>> not by Iraq
>>
>> Its interesting that you say both this:
>>
>> > Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
>>
>> and this:
>>
>> > I've got news for you. No matter how bad you want to believe it, there
> is
>> > no
>> > international law.
>>
>>
>
>Because the war, that he started, was not over.
"justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
news:42d6a1ee$1@linux...
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:42d69dd7@linux...
> > These are not contradictory at all. If anything the repeated bunglings
and
> > inaction by the UN have proven this beyond the shadow of a dowbt. Theie
is
> > no international law. If there was, Sadaam would have been deposed *by
the
> > UN* the minute he violated the sanctions. Unfortunately he was
encouraged
> > in
> > his violations by the very organization that imposed the sanctions in
the
> > first place. This organization no longer has the authority to call
itself
> > a
> > law making body. It is an anachronistic joke.
>
> I understand that point, but why do you then use 'Saddam was in violation
of
> UN sanctions' as your primary justification for war?
>
> > "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
> > news:42d69b22$1@linux...
> >>
> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> >> news:42d69931@linux...
> >>
> >> sorry to dissect your story like this, but I'm just responding to
current
> >> events:
> >>
> >> > We have been attacked.
> >>
> >> not by Iraq
> >>
> >> Its interesting that you say both this:
> >>
> >> > Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
> >>
> >> and this:
> >>
> >> > I've got news for you. No matter how bad you want to believe it,
there
> > is
> >> > no
> >> > international law.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:42d6a29f$1@linux...
> Because the war, that he started, was not over.
You're referring to the war that we nursed along since 1991?
Then in March 03, he's all of a sudden an imminent threat?
Come on Deej.
>
> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
> news:42d6a1ee$1@linux...
>>
>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> news:42d69dd7@linux...
>> > These are not contradictory at all. If anything the repeated bunglings
> and
>> > inaction by the UN have proven this beyond the shadow of a dowbt. Theie
> is
>> > no international law. If there was, Sadaam would have been deposed *by
> the
>> > UN* the minute he violated the sanctions. Unfortunately he was
> encouraged
>> > in
>> > his violations by the very organization that imposed the sanctions in
> the
>> > first place. This organization no longer has the authority to call
> itself
>> > a
>> > law making body. It is an anachronistic joke.
>>
>> I understand that point, but why do you then use 'Saddam was in violation
> of
>> UN sanctions' as your primary justification for war?
>>
>> > "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote in message
>> > news:42d69b22$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:42d69931@linux...
>> >>
>> >> sorry to dissect your story like this, but I'm just responding to
> current
>> >> events:
>> >>
>> >> > We have been attacked.
>> >>
>> >> not by Iraq
>> >>
>> >> Its interesting that you say both this:
>> >>
>> >> > Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
>> >>
>> >> and this:
>> >>
>> >> > I've got news for you. No matter how bad you want to believe it,
> there
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55721 is a reply to message #55718] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 11:14 |
justcron
Messages: 330
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
n to you
what america is and how america works, because i do know.
unbelievable. even funny in a way.
that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!! bad bad
bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
*throws tomato*
i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
"evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all that
bad.
i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to the
whole story than
"violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
every country, every institution is like that, its
only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that BS
thats only
there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
(my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
half socialist bastard),
which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
fear the actual comparison of concepts.
just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
(you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
(i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in a
>brief a post as possible.
>
>To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and decent
>roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly international
>community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same problems
>that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it was
a
>real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend human
>nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
>non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it political
>correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing happened
>early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family that
ws
>running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get together
>they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known me
for
>years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were noticing.
>
>The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the French
>seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other. The
>Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The Germans
>and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted to
>admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The Americans
>seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other
>Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans, lots
>of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The
>Scandin
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55724 is a reply to message #55712] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 12:39 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
>
me
>> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though they are
>not
>> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they are very
>> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life as
part
>> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
>>
>> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born in 1950.
>> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US which was
>full
>> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly things very
>> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect of
this
>> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was something
>> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I also
>came
>> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of these
>> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
>>
>> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a baby grand
>> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on the
>> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I could
>> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the keys
>> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived in south
>> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus Christi, Texas)
>> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father. He
was
>a
>> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work designing
>> large installations for the agricultural interests which were sponsored
by
>> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was
>basically
>> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more ugliness
>> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so
>obviously
>> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it, but
I
>> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called here,
a
>> *problem child*
>>
>> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band that was
>> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly large
>> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening shows
for
>> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam Vets
>who
>> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also opiates
>> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war counterculture
and
>> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type entertainment
>> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would make
them
>> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on
>> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
>>
>> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and had been
>> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do what
>they
>> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career (which was
>less
>> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I was
so
>> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative spark that
>I
>> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway. I
>didn't
>> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my
>> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to be
>> *cool*, at least in Texas.
>>
>> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over there.
>> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more and
more
>> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
>philosophy
>> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial anarchism.
>>
>> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were the
>> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business with
in
>> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like me,
>> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I started
>> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would travel
to
>> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were mostly
>> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who were
>not
>> really considered to be human by anyone, including these *enlightened*
>young
>> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
>traditionalists
>> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends of
my
>> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite a
few
>of
>> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and would
>> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared a
lot
>> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming increasing
>> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were the
>ones
>> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
>>
>> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away from
>> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene. My
>> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas, had
a
>> big house and invited me to live with them while I established myself.
>> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the film
>and
>> music industry and their kids.
>> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
>> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
>> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
>> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture that
>was
>> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the rest
of
>> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
>> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The decadence
>> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it wasn't
>cool
>> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew some
>> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the ranch
>> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader, was
in
>> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my
>cousins
>> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson who
had
>> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people you
can
>> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
>> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
>lifestyle
>> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
>>
>> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du jour*
I
>> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving women)
>> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and abortions
>> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the various
>> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro American
>> citizens
>> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war protests
>> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
>>
>> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major
>degree
>> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics. This
>> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of career
>path
>> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my way
>> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
>>
>> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to Mexico.
I
>> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place during
my
>> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a deserted
>place
>> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I have
met
>> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same kind
of
>> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, Katmandhu,
>> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
>destinations.
>> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by a
>Zapotec
>> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two of
>which
>> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small
>village
>> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good part
of
>my
>> life in this place and lived with this family during those times from
1973
>> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be and
>now
>> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the story
>> about thie place.
>> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You may
>have
>> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but I
have
>> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have the
>time.
>> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
>> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a question
>> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if you
are
>> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my home
and
>is
>> still my second home-
>>
>> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up and
>> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young
>woman,
>> Claudia is the
>> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests at
my
>> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the events
>> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad drug
>> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the social
>> experiment that is
>> happening there.
>>
>> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
>>
>> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and what
the
>> place was like the last time I was there.
>>
>> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
>>
>> more to come......
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d45df1@linux...
>> >
>> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
>> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
>> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
>> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize you.
>> >
>> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
>something.
>> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
>> >
>> > *shakes head in disbelief*
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
>> > >
>> > >Regards,
>> > >
>> > >DJ
>> > >
>> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>news:42d45332$1@linux...
>> > >>
>> > >> you know how i meant it.
>> > >>
>> > >> whatever.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would learn
>> from
>> > >> the
>> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> doug,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
>> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> regards,
>> > >> >> derek
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> > http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
>> > >seriously.............
>> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real proactive
>> > with
>> > >> >their
>> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in Holland
>these
>> > >days
>> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny about
how
>> > the
>> > >> >Euro's
>> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then when
the
>> chips
>> > >> >are
>> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective asses
>and
>> > >watch
>> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh shit!!!!
>> > >> >.......those
>> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and spoiled
>all
>> > >our
>> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam and
>pick
>> > up
>> > >> a
>> > >> >> few
>> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who are
>dying
>> > of
>> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to his
>> > >violations
>> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting the
>flies
>> > off
>> > >> >their
>> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
>> disentery.........and
>> > >> >just
>> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. Whaddaya
say
>> > >guys?
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your 3rd
&
>> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most evil
>> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I find
it
>> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be the
>> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was really
>> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into Iraq...
>> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the Iraqi's
>> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda against
>> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to being
>> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only thing
>> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
>> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit their
>> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a good
>> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs
>> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an Islamic
>city.
>> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another embassy?
OK,
>> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this time.
>> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before we
>> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good long
>> > >> >> >> time.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Neil
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Neil
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US - big
US
>> > oil
>> > >> >> >companies.
>> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in bombed
>> > >> >pipelines
>> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was about
>> > >> >destabilizing
>> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
>billions
>> > for
>> > >> >> >George's
>> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt the
US
>> > the
>> > >> >same
>> > >> >> >> way
>> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as payback
>> > for
>> > >> >> >Israeli/US
>> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending him
or
>> his
>> > >> >agenda
>> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and our
>> > >so-called
>> > >> >> >friends
>> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt the
US
>> > >> >government
>> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money as
>> possible
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> >their
>> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and military
>> > >> >contracts,
>> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
>social
>> > >> >> >safety-net
>> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
>directly
>> > >with
>> > >> >> high
>> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back
to
>the
>> > >early
>> > >> >> >1900s
>> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
>> ideology)
>> > >> is
>> > >> >> to
>> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public simply
>> > >can't
>> > >> >> >afford
>> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
>bankrupt
>> > the
>> > >> US
>> > >> >> >government
>> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and he's
>> doing
>> > >> a
>> > >> >great
>> > >> >> >> >job.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives don't
>> seem
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> >consider.
>> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth
>> through
>> > >> >> >taxation,
>> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
>nobodies
>> > >wealth
>> > >> >> is
>> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks the
>> economy.
>> > >> >> Why?
>> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend 100%
>of
>> > >every
>> > >> >> >dollar
>> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally spend
>> > >every
>> > >> >> red
>> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his rich
>> > >friends,
>> > >> >> >the
>> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save
and
>> > >> >government
>> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting of
>> America.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction that
>> the
>> > >> US
>> > >> >> is
>> > >> >> >> heading
>> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same agenda.
>> There's
>> > >> no
>> > >> >> >success
>> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you how
>> > >> >heartbroken
>> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've
>> always
>> > >> >> >believed
>> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are
very
>> > >> >worrisome
>> > >> >> >> >times.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this
>> > >> >senselessness
>> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else.
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >All the best,
>> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do not,
>> > >however,
>> > >> >> >agree
>> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done no
>good
>> > at
>> > >> all
>> > >> >> >(my
>> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those opposed
to
>> > the
>> > >> war
>> > >> >> >feel
>> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay could
have
>> > >easily
>> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the border
in
>> Syria
>> > >> or
>> > >> >> in
>> > >> >> >> >the
>> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think this story
>is
>> > >over
>> > >> >> >yet.
>> > >> >> >> >I
>> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want it
to
>be
>> > >over
>> > >> >> so
>> > >> >> >> they
>> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all the
>while
>> > >> >bellowing
>> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any found,
>> > >therefore,
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> >> >war
>> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's absolute
>lowest
>> > >> >partisan
>> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
>resolutions
>> > and
>> > >> in
>> > >> >> >doing
>> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven menace
>to
>> > >> >stability
>> > >> >> >> >in
>> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't happened?
I
>> > >don't
>> > >> >> >know,
>> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
>shooting
>> > >down
>> > >> >> one
>> > >> >> >> >of
>> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we would
>> have
>> > >> >done
>> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't give
a
>> damn
>> > >> >about
>> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping Sadaam
>in
>> > >power
>> > >> >> >was
>> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I guarantee
we
>> would
>> > >> >have
>> > >> >> >> half
>> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the pipelines
and
>> > >> >> >infrastructure
>> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry as
a
>> bone
>> > >> as
>> > >> >> we
>> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans aren't
>> subtle.
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >>Deej
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only ones
on
>> > >earth
>> > >> >> who
>> > >> >> >> >saw
>> > >> >> >> >>> any
>> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I *hate*
>the
>> > way
>> > >> >they
>> > >> >> >> >went
>> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing (which
>> > was
>> > >> >> >clearly
>> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
>> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB and
co
>> > >wanted
>> > >> >> >Saddam
>> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but
>because
>> > >they
>> > >> >> >noticed
>> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing" Iraq
>> would
>> > >> >give
>> > >> >> >> >them
>> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those events,
>> > >> >> >politically,
>> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for their
own
>> > >agenda,
>> > >> >> and
>> > >> >> >> >not
>> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of the
>> public.
>> > >> It
>> > >> >> >was
>> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
>> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think "free
>Iraq
>> > >from
>> > >> >> >tyranny"
>> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public don't
>> seem
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> care
>> > >> >> >> >if
>> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so you
have
>> > to
>> > >> tell
>> > >> >> >them
>> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied about
that
>> > I
>> > >> >*almost*
>> > >> >> >> >>would
>> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't have
>> stomached
>> > >> >that
>> > >> >> >> >as
>> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I think
if
>the
>> > >U.S.
>> > >> >> had
>> > >> >> >> >>waited
>> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the U.N.
>> that
>> > >> >> >eventually
>> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think GWB
& co
>
>> > >> >actually
>> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
>> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone they
>could
>> > be
>> > >> in
>> > >> >> >> >>charge,
>> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as the
>> country
>> > >> was
>> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
>> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a matter
>of
>> > >time
>> > >> >> >before
>> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could only
>> > >> >> >procrastinate
>> > >> >> >> >>for
>> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching. A
>whole
>> > >swag
>> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> >> >>countries
>> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a little
>> more".
>> > >> Sure
>> > >> >> it
>> > >> >> >> >was
>> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have been
>> worth
>> > >> it.
>> > >> >> >The
>> > >> >> >> >>way
>> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was just
>> hell
>> > >> bent
>> > >> >> on
>> > >> >> >> >war
>> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little longer
>> > >would
>> > >> >> have
>> > >> >> >> >>made
>> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether the
>> U.N.
>> > >> >> >actually
>> > >> >> >> >>ended
>> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main group.
DOH
>> > >DOH!!
>> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
>> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so much
about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very small
sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often, but
you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully what
you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any more
valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from and
make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but I
assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you like
it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do truly
have your head buried in the sand.
"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6bf8a$1@linux...
>
> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem
> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are
> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your
> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch
> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere
> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know
> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you
> what america is and how america works, because i do know.
>
>
> unbelievable. even funny in a way.
>
>
> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!! bad
bad
> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
> *throws tomato*
>
> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all that
> bad.
>
> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to the
> whole story than
> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
> every country, every institution is like that, its
> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that BS
> thats only
> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
>
>
> its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
>
> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
> half socialist bastard),
> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
>
> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
>
> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
>
> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
>
> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in a
> >brief a post as possible.
> >
> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and decent
> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
international
> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same problems
> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it was
> a
> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend human
> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it political
> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
happened
> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family that
> ws
> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
together
> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known me
> for
> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
noticing.
> >
> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the French
> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other.
The
> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The
Germans
> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted to
> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
Americans
> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other
> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans,
lots
> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The
> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
Americans.
> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the Europeans or
> the
> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone else
there.
> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing. The
> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality eventually
> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
beach).
> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc. posada.
> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to the
> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this and
their
> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of
people
> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and politics............so
> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard this, I
> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff I could
> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me, I am
> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things ought
> to
> >be.
> >
> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for travelling
> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful down
there
> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and
drugs
> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like Salvador
only
> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I saw
> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
bloodthirsty
> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine in
> your
> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can assure
you
> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads. It was
> >just reported that way in the press.
> >
> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am
> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked. W
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55725 is a reply to message #55724] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 12:34 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
e
know
> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions of
people
> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years and
> was
> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he was
some
> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had waited
> for
> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had supported
> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me little
faith
> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this
> >experience.
> >
> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are very
> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so
yes......I
> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of evil
> >person, but I'll get over it.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> >news:42d54f92@linux...
> >> Ok Derek,
> >>
> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. reading the
> >> stereotype BS you spread<
> >>
> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make someone
*bad*
> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based on
> real
> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's ugly to
> me
> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though they
are
> >not
> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they are
very
> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life as
> part
> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
> >>
> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born in
1950.
> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US which was
> >full
> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly things
very
> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect of
> this
> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was
something
> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I also
> >came
> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of these
> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
> >>
> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a baby
grand
> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on the
> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I
could
> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the keys
> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived in
south
> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus Christi,
Texas)
> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father. He
> was
> >a
> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work designing
> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were sponsored
> by
> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was
> >basically
> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more
ugliness
> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so
> >obviously
> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it, but
> I
> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called
here,
> a
> >> *problem child*
> >>
> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band that was
> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly large
> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening shows
> for
> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam Vets
> >who
> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also
opiates
> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war counterculture
> and
> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type entertainment
> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would make
> them
> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on
> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
> >>
> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and had
been
> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do what
> >they
> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career (which was
> >less
> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I was
> so
> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative spark
that
> >I
> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway. I
> >didn't
> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my
> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to be
> >> *cool*, at least in Texas.
> >>
> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over
there.
> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more and
> more
> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
> >philosophy
> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial
anarchism.
> >>
> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were
the
> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business with
> in
> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like me,
> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I
started
> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would travel
> to
> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were mostly
> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who
were
> >not
> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these *enlightened*
> >young
> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
> >traditionalists
> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends of
> my
> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite a
> few
> >of
> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and
would
> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared a
> lot
> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming
increasing
> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were the
> >ones
> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
> >>
> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away from
> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene. My
> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas, had
> a
> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established myself.
> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the film
> >and
> >> music industry and their kids.
> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture
that
> >was
> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the rest
> of
> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The
decadence
> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it wasn't
> >cool
> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew some
> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the
ranch
> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader, was
> in
> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my
> >cousins
> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson who
> had
> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people you
> can
> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
> >lifestyle
> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
> >>
> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du
jour*
> I
> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving
women)
> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and abortions
> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the
various
> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro American
> >> citizens
> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war
protests
> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
> >>
> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major
> >degree
> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics.
This
> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of career
> >path
> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my
way
> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
> >>
> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to Mexico.
> I
> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place during
> my
> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a deserted
> >place
> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I have
> met
> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same kind
> of
> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, Katmandhu,
> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
> >destinations.
> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by a
> >Zapotec
> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two of
> >which
> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small
> >village
> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good part
> of
> >my
> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times from
> 1973
> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be and
> >now
> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the story
> >> about thie place.
> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You may
> >have
> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but I
> have
> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have the
> >time.
> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a
question
> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if you
> are
> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my home
> and
> >is
> >> still my second home-
> >>
> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up
and
> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young
> >woman,
> >> Claudia is the
> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests at
> my
> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the
events
> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad drug
> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the
social
> >> experiment that is
> >> happening there.
> >>
> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
> >>
> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and what
> the
> >> place was like the last time I was there.
> >>
> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
> >>
> >> more to come......
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d45df1@linux...
> >> >
> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize you.
> >> >
> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
> >something.
> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
> >> >
> >> > *shakes head in disbelief*
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
> >> > >
> >> > >Regards,
> >> > >
> >> > >DJ
> >> > >
> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> >news:42d45332$1@linux...
> >> > >>
> >> > >> you know how i meant it.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> whatever.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would
learn
> >> from
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> doug,
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> regards,
> >> > >> >> derek
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
> >> > >seriously.............
> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real
proactive
> >> > with
> >> > >> >their
> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in Holland
> >these
> >> > >days
> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny about
> how
> >> > the
> >> > >> >Euro's
> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then when
> the
> >> chips
> >> > >> >are
> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective
asses
> >and
> >> > >watch
> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh shit!!!!
> >> > >> >.......those
> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and
spoiled
> >all
> >> > >our
> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam and
> >pick
> >> > up
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> >> few
> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who are
> >dying
> >> > of
> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to his
> >> > >violations
> >> > >> >> of
> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting the
> >flies
> >> > off
> >> > >> >their
> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
> >> disentery.........and
> >> > >> >just
> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. Whaddaya
> say
> >> > >guys?
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message
news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your 3rd
> &
> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most
evil
> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I find
> it
> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be the
> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was really
> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into
Iraq...
> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the
Iraqi's
> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda against
> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to being
> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only thing
> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit
their
> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a good
> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs
> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an Islamic
> >city.
> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another embassy?
> OK,
> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this
time.
> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before we
> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good
long
> >> > >> >> >> time.
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US - big
> US
> >> > oil
> >> > >> >> >companies.
> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in
bombed
> >> > >> >pipelines
> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was about
> >> > >> >destabilizing
> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
> >billions
> >> > for
> >> > >> >> >George's
> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt the
> US
> >> > the
> >> > >> >same
> >> > >> >> >> way
> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as
payback
> >> > for
> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending him
> or
> >> his
> >> > >> >agenda
> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and
our
> >> > >so-called
> >> > >> >> >friends
> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt the
> US
> >> > >> >government
> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money as
> >> possible
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> >> >their
> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and
military
> >> > >> >contracts,
> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
> >social
> >> > >> >> >safety-net
> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
> >directly
> >> > >with
> >> > >> >> high
> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back
> to
> >the
> >> > >early
> >> > >> >> >1900s
> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
> >> ideology)
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> >> to
> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public
simply
> >> > >can't
> >> > >> >> >afford
> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
> >bankrupt
> >> > the
> >> > >> US
> >> > >> >> >government
> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and he's
> >> doing
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> >great
> >> > >> >> >> >job.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
don't
> >> seem
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> >> >consider.
> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth
> >> through
> >> > >> >> >taxation,
> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
> >nobodies
> >> > >wealth
> >> > >> >> is
> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks the
> >> economy.
> >> > >> >> Why?
> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend
100%
> >of
> >> > >every
> >> > >> >> >dollar
> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally
spend
> >> > >every
> >> > >> >> red
> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his
rich
> >> > >friends,
> >> > >> >> >the
> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save
> and
> >> > >> >government
> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting of
> >> America.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction
that
> >> the
> >> > >> US
> >> > >> >> is
> >> > >> >> >> heading
> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same agenda.
> >> There's
> >> > >> no
> >> > >> >> >success
> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you
how
> >> > >> >heartbroken
> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've
> >> always
> >> > >> >> >believed
> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are
> very
> >> > >> >worrisome
> >> > >> >> >> >times.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this
> >> > >> >senselessness
> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else.
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do
not,
> >> > >however,
> >> > >> >> >agree
> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done no
> >good
> >> > at
> >> > >> all
> >> > >> >> >(my
> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those opposed
> to
> >> > the
> >> > >> war
> >> > >> >> >feel
> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay could
> have
> >> > >easily
> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the border
> in
> >> Syria
> >> > >> or
> >> > >> >> in
> >> > >> >> >> >the
> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think this
story
> >is
> >> > >over
> >> > >> >> >yet.
> >> > >> >> >> >I
> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want it
> to
> >be
> >> > >over
> >> > >> >> so
> >> > >> >> >> they
> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all the
> >while
> >> > >> >bellowing
> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any found,
> >> > >therefore,
> >> > >> >> the
> >> > >> >> >> >war
> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's absolute
> >lowest
> >> > >> >partisan
> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
> >resolutions
> >> > and
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> >> >doing
> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven
menace
> >to
> >> > >> >stability
> >> > >> >> >> >in
> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't
happened?
> I
> >> > >don't
> >> > >> >> >know,
> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
> >shooting
> >> > >down
> >> > >> >> one
> >> > >> >> >> >of
> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we
would
> >> have
> >> > >> >done
> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't give
> a
> >> damn
> >> > >> >about
> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping
Sadaam
> >in
> >> > >power
> >> > >> >> >was
> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I guarantee
> we
> >> would
> >> > >> >have
> >> > >> >> >> half
> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the pipelines
> and
> >> > >> >> >infrastructure
> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry as
> a
> >> bone
> >> > >> as
> >> > >> >> we
> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans aren't
> >> subtle.
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only ones
> on
> >> > >earth
> >> > >> >> who
> >> > >> >> >> >saw
> >> > >> >> >> >>> any
> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I *hate*
> >the
> >> > way
> >> > >> >they
> >> > >> >> >> >went
> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing
(which
> >> > was
> >> > >> >> >clearly
> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB and
> co
> >> > >wanted
> >> > >> >> >Saddam
> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but
> >because
> >> > >they
> >> > >> >> >noticed
> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing"
Iraq
> >> would
> >> > >> >give
> >> > >> >> >> >them
> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those
events,
> >> > >> >> >politically,
> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for their
> own
> >> > >agenda,
> >> > >> >> and
> >> > >> >> >> >not
> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of the
> >> public.
> >> > >> It
> >> > >> >> >was
> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think "free
> >Iraq
> >> > >from
> >> > >> >> >tyranny"
> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public
don't
> >> seem
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> >> care
> >> > >> >> >> >if
> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so you
> have
> >> > to
> >> > >> tell
> >> > >> >> >them
> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied about
> that
> >> > I
> >> > >> >*almost*
> >> > >> >> >> >>would
> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't have
> >> stomached
> >> > >> >that
> >> > >> >> >> >as
> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I think
> if
> >the
> >> > >U.S.
> >> > >> >> had
> >> > >> >> >> >>waited
> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the
U.N.
> >> that
> >> > >> >> >eventually
> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think GWB
> & co
> >
> >> > >> >actually
> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone they
> >could
> >> > be
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> >> >> >>charge,
> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as the
> >> country
> >> > >> was
> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a
matter
> >of
> >> > >time
> >> > >> >> >before
> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could
only
> >> > >> >> >procrastinate
> >> > >> >> >> >>for
> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching. A
> >whole
> >> > >swag
> >> > >> >> of
> >> > >> >> >> >>countries
> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a little
> >> more".
> >> > >> Sure
> >> > >> >> it
> >> > >> >> >> >was
> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have
been
> >> worth
> >> > >> it.
> >> > >> >> >The
> >> > >> >> >> >>way
> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was
just
> >> hell
> >> > >> bent
> >> > >> >> on
> >> > >> >> >> >war
> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little
longer
> >> > >would
> >> > >> >> have
> >> > >> >> >> >>made
> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether
the
> >> U.N.
> >> > >> >> >actually
> >> > >> >> >> >>ended
> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main group.
> DOH
> >> > >DOH!!
> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >>
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>doug, the "let me explain america to you" part was, of course, pure irony.
but im somehow glad that
you missed it, because it should give you a nice impression
about how your ranting about
the europe you believe to know so much about comes
across to someone who actually does know a thing or two
about europe because he happens to live there.
the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony.
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so much
>about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very small
>sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often, but
>you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully
what
>you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any more
>valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from
and
>make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but
I
>assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you like
>it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do truly
>have your head buried in the sand.
>
>"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6bf8a$1@linux...
>>
>> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem
>> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are
>> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your
>> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch
>> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere
>> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know
>> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you
>> what america is and how america works, because i do know.
>>
>>
>> unbelievable. even funny in a way.
>>
>>
>> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
>> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!! bad
>bad
>> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
>> *throws tomato*
>>
>> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
>> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
>> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
>> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
>> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all that
>> bad.
>>
>> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to
the
>> whole story than
>> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
>> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
>> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
>> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
>> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
>> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
>> every country, every institution is like that, its
>> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
>> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
>> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
>> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that
BS
>> thats only
>> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
>>
>>
>> its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
>> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
>> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
>> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
>>
>> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
>> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
>> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
>> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
>> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
>> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
>> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
>> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
>> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
>> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
>> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
>> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
>> half socialist bastard),
>> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
>>
>> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
>> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
>> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
>>
>> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
>> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
>> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
>> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
>> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
>> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
>> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
>>
>> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
>> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
>> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
>> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
>> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
>>
>> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in
a
>> >brief a post as possible.
>> >
>> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and decent
>> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
>international
>> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same problems
>> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it was
>> a
>> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend human
>> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
>> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it political
>> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
>happened
>> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family that
>> ws
>> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
>together
>> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known
me
>> for
>> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
>noticing.
>> >
>> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the French
>> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other.
>The
>> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The
>Germans
>> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted
to
>> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
>Americans
>> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other
>> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans,
>lots
>> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The
>> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
>Americans.
>> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the Europeans
or
>> the
>> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone else
>there.
>> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing. The
>> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality eventually
>> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
>beach).
>> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc. posada.
>> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to
the
>> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this and
>their
>> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of
>people
>> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and politics............so
>> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard this,
I
>> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly s
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55726 is a reply to message #55725] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 13:15 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
tuff I could
>> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me, I
am
>> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things ought
>> to
>> >be.
>> >
>> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for travelling
>> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful down
>there
>> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and
>drugs
>> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like Salvador
>only
>> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I
saw
>> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
>bloodthirsty
>> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine
in
>> your
>> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can assure
>you
>> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads. It
was
>> >just reported that way in the press.
>> >
>> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am
>> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked. We
>know
>> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions of
>people
>> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years and
>> was
>> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he was
>some
>> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had waited
>> for
>> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had supported
>> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me little
>faith
>> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this
>> >experience.
>> >
>> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are very
>> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so
>yes......I
>> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of evil
>> >person, but I'll get over it.
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Doug
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> >news:42d54f92@linux...
>> >> Ok Derek,
>> >>
>> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
>> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. reading
the
>> >> stereotype BS you spread<
>> >>
>> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make someone
>*bad*
>> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based
on
>> real
>> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's ugly
to
>> me
>> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though they
>are
>> >not
>> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they are
>very
>> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life
as
>> part
>> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
>> >>
>> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born in
>1950.
>> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US which
was
>> >full
>> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly things
>very
>> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect
of
>> this
>> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was
>something
>> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I
also
>> >came
>> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of these
>> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
>> >>
>> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a baby
>grand
>> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on the
>> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I
>could
>> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the keys
>> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived in
>south
>> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus Christi,
>Texas)
>> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father.
He
>> was
>> >a
>> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work designing
>> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were sponsored
>> by
>> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was
>> >basically
>> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more
>ugliness
>> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so
>> >obviously
>> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it,
but
>> I
>> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called
>here,
>> a
>> >> *problem child*
>> >>
>> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band that
was
>> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly large
>> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening shows
>> for
>> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam
Vets
>> >who
>> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also
>opiates
>> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war counterculture
>> and
>> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type entertainment
>> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would make
>> them
>> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on
>> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
>> >>
>> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and had
>been
>> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do what
>> >they
>> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career (which
was
>> >less
>> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I was
>> so
>> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative spark
>that
>> >I
>> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway.
I
>> >didn't
>> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my
>> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to
be
>> >> *cool*, at least in Texas.
>> >>
>> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over
>there.
>> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more and
>> more
>> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
>> >philosophy
>> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial
>anarchism.
>> >>
>> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were
>the
>> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business
with
>> in
>> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like
me,
>> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I
>started
>> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would travel
>> to
>> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were mostly
>> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who
>were
>> >not
>> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these *enlightened*
>> >young
>> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
>> >traditionalists
>> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends
of
>> my
>> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite
a
>> few
>> >of
>> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and
>would
>> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared
a
>> lot
>> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming
>increasing
>> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were
the
>> >ones
>> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
>> >>
>> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away from
>> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene.
My
>> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas,
had
>> a
>> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established myself.
>> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the
film
>> >and
>> >> music industry and their kids.
>> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
>> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
>> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
>> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture
>that
>> >was
>> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the
rest
>> of
>> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
>> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The
>decadence
>> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it wasn't
>> >cool
>> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew some
>> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the
>ranch
>> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader,
was
>> in
>> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my
>> >cousins
>> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson who
>> had
>> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people you
>> can
>> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
>> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
>> >lifestyle
>> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
>> >>
>> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du
>jour*
>> I
>> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving
>women)
>> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and abortions
>> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the
>various
>> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro American
>> >> citizens
>> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war
>protests
>> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major
>> >degree
>> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics.
>This
>> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of career
>> >path
>> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my
>way
>> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
>> >>
>> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to Mexico.
>> I
>> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place during
>> my
>> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a deserted
>> >place
>> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I have
>> met
>> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same kind
>> of
>> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem, Katmandhu,
>> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
>> >destinations.
>> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by
a
>> >Zapotec
>> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two
of
>> >which
>> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small
>> >village
>> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good part
>> of
>> >my
>> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times from
>> 1973
>> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be
and
>> >now
>> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the story
>> >> about thie place.
>> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You
may
>> >have
>> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but
I
>> have
>> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have
the
>> >time.
>> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
>> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a
>question
>> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if you
>> are
>> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my home
>> and
>> >is
>> >> still my second home-
>> >>
>> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up
>and
>> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young
>> >woman,
>> >> Claudia is the
>> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests
at
>> my
>> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the
>events
>> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad
drug
>> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the
>social
>> >> experiment that is
>> >> happening there.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
>> >>
>> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and what
>> the
>> >> place was like the last time I was there.
>> >>
>> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
>> >>
>> >> more to come......
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Doug
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d45df1@linux...
>> >> >
>> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
>> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
>> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
>> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize
you.
>> >> >
>> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
>> >something.
>> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
>> >> >
>> >> > *shakes head in disbelief*
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Regards,
>> >> > >
>> >> > >DJ
>> >> > >
>> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> >news:42d45332$1@linux...
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> you know how i meant it.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> whatever.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would
>learn
>> >> from
>> >> > >> the
>> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> doug,
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
>> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> regards,
>> >> > >> >> derek
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> >>
>> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
>> >> > >seriously.............
>> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real
>proactive
>> >> > with
>> >> > >> >their
>> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in Holland
>> >these
>> >> > >days
>> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny about
>> how
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> >Euro's
>> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then when
>> the
>> >> chips
>> >> > >> >are
>> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective
>asses
>> >and
>> >> > >watch
>> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh shit!!!!
>> >> > >> >.......those
>> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and
>spoiled
>> >all
>> >> > >our
>> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam
and
>> >pick
>> >> > up
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> >> few
>> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who
are
>> >dying
>> >> > of
>> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to his
>> >> > >violations
>> >> > >> >> of
>> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting the
>> >flies
>> >> > off
>> >> > >> >their
>> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
>> >> disentery.........and
>> >> > >> >just
>> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room. Whaddaya
>> say
>> >> > >guys?
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message
>news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your
3rd
>> &
>> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most
>evil
>> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I find
>> it
>> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be
the
>> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was really
>> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into
>Iraq...
>> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the
>Iraqi's
>> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda against
>> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to being
>> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only thing
>> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
>> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit
>their
>> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a
good
>> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs
>> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an Islamic
>> >city.
>> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another embassy?
>> OK,
>> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this
>time.
>> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before
we
>> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good
>long
>> >> > >> >> >> time.
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> Neil
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> Neil
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US -
big
>> US
>> >> > oil
>> >> > >> >> >companies.
>> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in
>bombed
>> >> > >> >pipelines
>> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was about
>> >> > >> >destabilizing
>> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
>> >billions
>> >> > for
>> >> > >> >> >George's
>> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt
the
>> US
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> >same
>> >> > >> >> >> way
>> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as
>payback
>> >> > for
>> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
>> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending
him
>> or
>> >> his
>> >> > >> >agenda
>> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and
>our
>> >> > >so-called
>> >> > >> >> >friends
>> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt
the
>> US
>> >> > >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money
as
>> >> possible
>> >> > >> to
>> >> > >> >> >their
>> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and
>military
>> >> > >> >contracts,
>> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
>> >social
>> >> > >> >> >safety-net
>> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
>> >directly
>> >> > >with
>> >> > >> >> high
>> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US back
>> to
>> >the
>> >> > >early
>> >> > >> >> >1900s
>> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
>> >> ideology)
>> >> > >> is
>> >> > >> >> to
>> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public
>simply
>> >> > >can't
>> >> > >> >> >afford
>> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
>> >bankrupt
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> US
>> >> > >> >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and
he's
>> >> doing
>> >> > >> a
>> >> > >> >great
>> >> > >> >> >> >job.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
>don't
>> >> seem
>> >> > >> to
>> >> > >> >> >consider.
>> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of wealth
>> >> through
>> >> > >> >> >taxation,
>> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
>> >nobodies
>> >> > >wealth
>> >> > >> >> is
>> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks
the
>> >> economy.
>> >> > >> >> Why?
>> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend
>100%
>> >of
>> >> > >every
>> >> > >> >> >dollar
>> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally
>spend
>> >> > >every
>> >> > >> >> red
>> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his
>rich
>> >> > >friends,
>> >> > >> >> >the
>> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people save
>> and
>> >> > >> >government
>> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting
of
>> >> America.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction
>that
>> >> the
>> >> > >> US
>> >> > >> >> is
>> >> > >> >> >> heading
>> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same agenda.
>> >> There's
>> >> > >> no
>> >> > >> >> >success
>> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you
>how
>> >> > >> >heartbroken
>> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election. I've
>> >> always
>> >> > >> >> >believed
>> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these are
>> very
>> >> > >> >worrisome
>> >> > >> >> >> >times.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by
this
>> >> > >> >senselessness
>> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone else.
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
>> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do
>not,
>> >> > >however,
>> >> > >> >> >agree
>> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done
no
>> >good
>> >> > at
>> >> > >> all
>> >> > >> >> >(my
>> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those opposed
>> to
>> >> > the
>> >> > >> war
>> >> > >> >> >feel
>> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay could
>> have
>> >> > >easily
>> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the border
>> in
>> >> Syria
>> >> > >> or
>> >> > >> >> in
>> >> > >> >> >> >the
>> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think this
>story
>> >is
>> >> > >over
>> >> > >> >> >yet.
>> >> > >> >> >> >I
>> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want
it
>> to
>> >be
>> >> > >over
>> >> > >> >> so
>> >> > >> >> >> they
>> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all the
>> >while
>> >> > >> >bellowing
>> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any found,
>> >> > >therefore,
>> >> > >> >> the
>> >> > >> >> >> >war
>> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's absolute
>> >lowest
>> >> > >> >partisan
>> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
>> >resolutions
>> >> > and
>> >> > >> in
>> >> > >> >> >doing
>> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven
>menace
>> >to
>> >> > >> >stability
>> >> > >> >> >> >in
>> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't
>happened?
>> I
>> >> > >don't
>> >> > >> >> >know,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
>> >shooting
>> >> > >down
>> >> > >> >> one
>> >> > >> >> >> >of
>> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we
>would
>> >> have
>> >> > >> >done
>> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't
give
>> a
>> >> damn
>> >> > >> >about
>> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping
>Sadaam
>> >in
>> >> > >power
>> >> > >> >> >was
>> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I guarantee
>> we
>> >> would
>> >> > >> >have
>> >> > >> >> >> half
>> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the pipelines
>> and
>> >> > >> >> >infrastructure
>> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry
as
>> a
>> >> bone
>> >> > >> as
>> >> > >> >> we
>> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans aren't
>> >> subtle.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only
ones
>> on
>> >> > >earth
>> >> > >> >> who
>> >> > >> >> >> >saw
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> any
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I *hate*
>> >the
>> >> > way
>> >> > >> >they
>> >> > >> >> >> >went
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing
>(which
>> >> > was
>> >> > >> >> >clearly
>> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB
and
>> co
>> >> > >wanted
>> >> > >> >> >Saddam
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but
>> >because
>> >> > >they
>> >> > >> >> >noticed
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing"
>Iraq
>> >> would
>> >> > >> >give
>> >> > >> >> >> >them
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those
>events,
>> >> > >> >> >politically,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for their
>> own
>> >> > >agenda,
>> >> > >> >> and
>> >> > >> >> >> >not
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of
the
>> >> public.
>> >> > >> It
>> >> > >> >> >was
>> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think "free
>> >Iraq
>> >> > >from
>> >> > >> >> >tyranny"
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public
>don't
>> >> seem
>> >> > >> to
>> >> > >> >> care
>> >> > >> >> >> >if
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so you
>> have
>> >> > to
>> >> > >> tell
>> >> > >> >> >them
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied about
>> that
>> >> > I
>> >> > >> >*almost*
>> >> > >> >> >> >>would
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't have
>> >> stomached
>> >> > >> >that
>> >> > >> >> >> >as
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I think
>> if
>> >the
>> >> > >U.S.
>> >> > >> >> had
>> >> > >> >> >> >>waited
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the
>U.N.
>> >> that
>> >> > >> >> >eventually
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think GWB
>> & co
>> >
>> >> > >> >actually
>> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone they
>> >could
>> >> > be
>> >> > >> in
>> >> > >> >> >> >>charge,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as the
>> >> country
>> >> > >> was
>> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a
>matter
>> >of
>> >> > >time
>> >> > >> >> >before
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could
>only
>> >> > >> >> >procrastinate
>> >> > >> >> >> >>for
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching.
A
>> >whole
>> >> > >swag
>> >> > >> >> of
>> >> > >> >> >> >>countries
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a little
>> >> more".
>> >> > >> Sure
>> >> > >> >> it
>> >> > >> >> >> >was
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have
>been
>> >> worth
>> >> > >> it.
>> >> > >> >> >The
>> >> > >> >> >> >>way
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was
>just
>> >> hell
>> >> > >> bent
>> >> > >> >> on
>> >> > >> >> >> >war
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little
>longer
>> >> > >would
>> >> > >> >> have
>> >> > >> >> >> >>made
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether
>the
>> >> U.N.
>> >> > >> >> >actually
>> >> > >> >> >> >>ended
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main group.
>> DOH
>> >> > >DOH!!
>> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
>> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe* who were
professionals, hippies, soldiers, tradesmen and were there for long periods
of time, returning to this place again and again, year after year for almost
20 years and I saw the same thing happen, again and again, year after year
for almost 20 years, so I'm sure there is no reason to assume there's any
relationship between what I experienced and what is reality.
"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6c7de$1@linux...
>
> doug, the "let me explain america to you" part was, of course, pure
irony.
> but im somehow glad that
> you missed it, because it should give you a nice impression
> about how your ranting about
> the europe you believe to know so much about comes
> across to someone who actually does know a thing or two
> about europe because he happens to live there.
>
> the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony.
>
>
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so much
> >about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very
small
> >sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often,
but
> >you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully
> what
> >you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any more
> >valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from
> and
> >make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but
> I
> >assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you
like
> >it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do
truly
> >have your head buried in the sand.
> >
> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6bf8a$1@linux...
> >>
> >> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem
> >> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are
> >> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your
> >> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch
> >> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere
> >> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know
> >> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you
> >> what america is and how america works, because i do know.
> >>
> >>
> >> unbelievable. even funny in a way.
> >>
> >>
> >> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
> >> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!! bad
> >bad
> >> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
> >> *throws tomato*
> >>
> >> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
> >> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
> >> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
> >> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
> >> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all
that
> >> bad.
> >>
> >> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to
> the
> >> whole story than
> >> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
> >> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
> >> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
> >> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
> >> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
> >> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
> >> every country, every institution is like that, its
> >> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
> >> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
> >> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
> >> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all that
> BS
> >> thats only
> >> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
> >>
> >>
> >> its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
> >> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
> >> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
> >> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
> >>
> >> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
> >> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
> >> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
> >> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
> >> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
> >> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
> >> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
> >> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
> >> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
> >> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
> >> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
> >> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
> >> half socialist bastard),
> >> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
> >>
> >> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
> >> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
> >> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
> >>
> >> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
> >> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
> >> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so
funny
> >> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
> >> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
> >> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
> >> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
> >> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
> >> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
> >>
> >> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
> >> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
> >> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
> >> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
> >> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
> >>
> >> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this in
> a
> >> >brief a post as possible.
> >> >
> >> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and
decent
> >> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
> >international
> >> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same
problems
> >> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it
was
> >> a
> >> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend
human
> >> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
> >> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it
political
> >> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
> >happened
> >> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family
that
> >> ws
> >> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
> >together
> >> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had known
> me
> >> for
> >> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
> >noticing.
> >> >
> >> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the
French
> >> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each other.
> >The
> >> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The
> >Germans
> >> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted
> to
> >> >admit liking the
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55727 is a reply to message #55726] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 13:15 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
> >Americans
> >> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and other
> >> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the Europeans,
> >lots
> >> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians. The
> >> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
> >Americans.
> >> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the Europeans
> or
> >> the
> >> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone else
> >there.
> >> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing. The
> >> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality
eventually
> >> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
> >beach).
> >> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc.
posada.
> >> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to
> the
> >> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this and
> >their
> >> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of
> >people
> >> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and
politics............so
> >> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard this,
> I
> >> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff I
could
> >> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me, I
> am
> >> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things
ought
> >> to
> >> >be.
> >> >
> >> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for
travelling
> >> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful down
> >there
> >> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and
> >drugs
> >> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like Salvador
> >only
> >> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I
> saw
> >> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
> >bloodthirsty
> >> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine
> in
> >> your
> >> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can assure
> >you
> >> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads. It
> was
> >> >just reported that way in the press.
> >> >
> >> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am
> >> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked. We
> >know
> >> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions of
> >people
> >> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
and
> >> was
> >> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he was
> >some
> >> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had
waited
> >> for
> >> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had
supported
> >> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me little
> >faith
> >> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this
> >> >experience.
> >> >
> >> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are very
> >> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so
> >yes......I
> >> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of evil
> >> >person, but I'll get over it.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >Doug
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:42d54f92@linux...
> >> >> Ok Derek,
> >> >>
> >> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> >> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you. reading
> the
> >> >> stereotype BS you spread<
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make someone
> >*bad*
> >> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based
> on
> >> real
> >> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's ugly
> to
> >> me
> >> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though they
> >are
> >> >not
> >> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they are
> >very
> >> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life
> as
> >> part
> >> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born in
> >1950.
> >> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US which
> was
> >> >full
> >> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly things
> >very
> >> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect
> of
> >> this
> >> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was
> >something
> >> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I
> also
> >> >came
> >> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of these
> >> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
> >> >>
> >> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a baby
> >grand
> >> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on
the
> >> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I
> >could
> >> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the
keys
> >> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived in
> >south
> >> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus Christi,
> >Texas)
> >> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father.
> He
> >> was
> >> >a
> >> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work
designing
> >> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were
sponsored
> >> by
> >> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was
> >> >basically
> >> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more
> >ugliness
> >> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so
> >> >obviously
> >> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it,
> but
> >> I
> >> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called
> >here,
> >> a
> >> >> *problem child*
> >> >>
> >> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band that
> was
> >> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly large
> >> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening
shows
> >> for
> >> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam
> Vets
> >> >who
> >> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also
> >opiates
> >> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war
counterculture
> >> and
> >> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type
entertainment
> >> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would
make
> >> them
> >> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on
> >> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
> >> >>
> >> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and had
> >been
> >> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do
what
> >> >they
> >> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career (which
> was
> >> >less
> >> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I
was
> >> so
> >> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative spark
> >that
> >> >I
> >> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway.
> I
> >> >didn't
> >> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on my
> >> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered to
> be
> >> >> *cool*, at least in Texas.
> >> >>
> >> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed over
> >there.
> >> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more
and
> >> more
> >> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
> >> >philosophy
> >> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial
> >anarchism.
> >> >>
> >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They were
> >the
> >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business
> with
> >> in
> >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were, like
> me,
> >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I
> >started
> >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would
travel
> >> to
> >> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were
mostly
> >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians, who
> >were
> >> >not
> >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these
*enlightened*
> >> >young
> >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
> >> >traditionalists
> >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends
> of
> >> my
> >> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met quite
> a
> >> few
> >> >of
> >> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and
> >would
> >> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we shared
> a
> >> lot
> >> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming
> >increasing
> >> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were
> the
> >> >ones
> >> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
> >> >>
> >> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away
from
> >> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California scene.
> My
> >> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from Texas,
> had
> >> a
> >> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established
myself.
> >> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the
> film
> >> >and
> >> >> music industry and their kids.
> >> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
> >> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
> >> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
> >> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug culture
> >that
> >> >was
> >> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the
> rest
> >> of
> >> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
> >> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The
> >decadence
> >> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it
wasn't
> >> >cool
> >> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew
some
> >> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the
> >ranch
> >> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their leader,
> was
> >> in
> >> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of my
> >> >cousins
> >> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson
who
> >> had
> >> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people
you
> >> can
> >> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
> >> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
> >> >lifestyle
> >> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
> >> >>
> >> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du
> >jour*
> >> I
> >> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the moving
> >women)
> >> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and
abortions
> >> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the
> >various
> >> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro
American
> >> >> citizens
> >> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war
> >protests
> >> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a major
> >> >degree
> >> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and economics.
> >This
> >> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of
career
> >> >path
> >> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew my
> >way
> >> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
> >> >>
> >> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to
Mexico.
> >> I
> >> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place
during
> >> my
> >> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a
deserted
> >> >place
> >> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I
have
> >> met
> >> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same
kind
> >> of
> >> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem,
Katmandhu,
> >> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
> >> >destinations.
> >> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by
> a
> >> >Zapotec
> >> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two
> of
> >> >which
> >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this small
> >> >village
> >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good
part
> >> of
> >> >my
> >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times
from
> >> 1973
> >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to be
> and
> >> >now
> >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the
story
> >> >> about thie place.
> >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it. You
> may
> >> >have
> >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story but
> I
> >> have
> >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have
> the
> >> >time.
> >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
> >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a
> >question
> >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if
you
> >> are
> >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my
home
> >> and
> >> >is
> >> >> still my second home-
> >> >>
> >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow up
> >and
> >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful young
> >> >woman,
> >> >> Claudia is the
> >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were guests
> at
> >> my
> >> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched the
> >events
> >> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad
> drug
> >> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the
> >social
> >> >> experiment that is
> >> >> happening there.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
> >> >>
> >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and
what
> >> the
> >> >> place was like the last time I was there.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
> >> >>
> >> >> more to come......
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Doug
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:42d45df1@linux...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
> >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
> >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize
> you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
> >> >something.
> >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief*
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Regards,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >DJ
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:42d45332$1@linux...
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> you know how i meant it.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> whatever.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe would
> >learn
> >> >> from
> >> >> > >> the
> >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> doug,
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
> >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> regards,
> >> >> > >> >> derek
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
> >> >> > >seriously.............
> >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real
> >proactive
> >> >> > with
> >> >> > >> >their
> >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in
Holland
> >> >these
> >> >> > >days
> >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny
about
> >> how
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > >> >Euro's
> >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then
when
> >> the
> >> >> chips
> >> >> > >> >are
> >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective
> >asses
> >> >and
> >> >> > >watch
> >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh
shit!!!!
> >> >> > >> >.......those
> >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and
> >spoiled
> >> >all
> >> >> > >our
> >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam
> and
> >> >pick
> >> >> > up
> >> >> > >> a
> >> >> > >> >> few
> >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who
> are
> >> >dying
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to
his
> >> >> > >violations
> >> >> > >> >> of
> >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting
the
> >> >flies
> >> >> > off
> >> >> > >> >their
> >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
> >> >> disentery.........and
> >> >> > >> >just
> >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room.
Whaddaya
> >> say
> >> >> > >guys?
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message
> >news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially your
> 3rd
> >> &
> >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the most
> >evil
> >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I
find
> >> it
> >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be
> the
> >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was
really
> >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into
> >Iraq...
> >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the
> >Iraqi's
> >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda
against
> >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to
being
> >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only
thing
> >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
> >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers & limit
> >their
> >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a
> good
> >> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that occurs
> >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an
Islamic
> >> >city.
> >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another
embassy?
> >> OK,
> >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb this
> >time.
> >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long before
> we
> >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a good
> >long
> >> >> > >> >> >> time.
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the US -
> big
> >> US
> >> >> > oil
> >> >> > >> >> >companies.
> >> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it in
> >bombed
> >> >> > >> >pipelines
> >> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was
about
> >> >> > >> >destabilizing
> >> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
> >> >billions
> >> >> > for
> >> >> > >> >> >George's
> >> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to bankrupt
> the
> >> US
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > >> >same
> >> >> > >> >> >> way
> >> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as
> >payback
> >> >> > for
> >> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
> >> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending
> him
> >> or
> >> >> his
> >> >> > >> >agenda
> >> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly - and
> >our
> >> >> > >so-called
> >> >> > >> >> >friends
> >> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt
> the
> >> US
> >> >> > >> >government
> >> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money
> as
> >> >> possible
> >> >> > >> to
> >> >> > >> >> >their
> >> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and
> >military
> >> >> > >> >contracts,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what little
> >> >social
> >> >> > >> >> >safety-net
> >> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
> >> >directly
> >> >> > >with
> >> >> > >> >> high
> >> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US
back
> >> to
> >> >the
> >> >> > >early
> >> >> > >> >> >1900s
> >> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the conservative
> >> >> ideology)
> >> >> > >> is
> >> >> > >> >> to
> >> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the public
> >simply
> >> >> > >can't
> >> >> > >> >> >afford
> >> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
> >> >bankrupt
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > >> US
> >> >> > >> >> >government
> >> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and
> he's
> >> >> doing
> >> >> > >> a
> >> >> > >> >great
> >> >> > >> >> >> >job.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
> >don't
> >> >> seem
> >> >> > >> to
> >> >> > >> >> >consider.
> >> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of
wealth
> >> >> through
> >> >> > >> >> >taxation,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
> >> >nobodies
> >> >> > >wealth
> >> >> > >> >> is
> >> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks
> the
> >> >> economy.
> >> >> > >> >> Why?
> >> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't spend
> >100%
> >> >of
> >> >> > >every
> >> >> > >> >> >dollar
> >> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments generally
> >spend
> >> >> > >every
> >> >> > >> >> red
> >> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for his
> >rich
> >> >> > >friends,
> >> >> > >> >> >the
> >> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people
save
> >> and
> >> >> > >> >government
> >> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting
> of
> >> >> America.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the direction
> >that
> >> >> the
> >> >> > >> US
> >> >> > >> >> is
> >> >> > >> >> >> heading
> >> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same
agenda.
> >> >> There's
> >> >> > >> no
> >> >> > >> >> >success
> >> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell you
> >how
> >> >> > >> >heartbroken
> >> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election.
I've
> >> >> always
> >> >> > >> >> >believed
> >> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these
are
> >> very
> >> >> > >> >worrisome
> >> >> > >> >> >> >times.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by
> this
> >> >> > >> >senselessness
> >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone
else.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I do
> >not,
> >> >> > >however,
> >> >> > >> >> >agree
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have done
> no
> >> >good
> >> >> > at
> >> >> > >> all
> >> >> > >> >> >(my
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those
opposed
> >> to
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > >> war
> >> >> > >> >> >feel
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay
could
> >> have
> >> >> > >easily
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the
border
> >> in
> >> >> Syria
> >> >> > >> or
> >> >> > >> >> in
> >> >> > >> >> >> >the
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think this
> >story
> >> >is
> >> >> > >over
> >> >> > >> >> >yet.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >I
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want
> it
> >> to
> >> >be
> >> >> > >over
> >> >> > >> >> so
> >> >> > >> >> >> they
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all
the
> >> >while
> >> >> > >> >bellowing
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any
found,
> >> >> > >therefore,
> >> >> > >> >> the
> >> >> > >> >> >> >war
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's
absolute
> >> >lowest
> >> >> > >> >partisan
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
> >> >resolutions
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > >> in
> >> >> > >> >> >doing
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven
> >menace
> >> >to
> >> >> > >> >stability
> >> >> > >> >> >> >in
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't
> >happened?
> >> I
> >> >> > >don't
> >> >> > >> >> >know,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
> >> >shooting
> >> >> > >down
> >> >> > >> >> one
> >> >> > >> >> >> >of
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and we
> >would
> >> >> have
> >> >> > >> >done
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't
> give
> >> a
> >> >> damn
> >> >> > >> >about
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping
> >Sadaam
> >> >in
> >> >> > >power
> >> >> > >> >> >was
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I
guarantee
> >> we
> >> >> would
> >> >> > >> >have
> >> >> > >> >> >> half
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the
pipelines
> >> and
> >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat dry
> as
> >> a
> >> >> bone
> >> >> > >> as
> >> >> > >> >> we
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans
aren't
> >> >> subtle.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only
> ones
> >> on
> >> >> > >earth
> >> >> > >> >> who
> >> >> > >> >> >> >saw
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> any
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I
*hate*
> >> >the
> >> >> > way
> >> >> > >> >they
> >> >> > >> >> >> >went
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror thing
> >(which
> >> >> > was
> >> >> > >> >> >clearly
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that GWB
> and
> >> co
> >> >> > >wanted
> >> >> > >> >> >Saddam
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man, but
> >> >because
> >> >> > >they
> >> >> > >> >> >noticed
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured "freeing"
> >Iraq
> >> >> would
> >> >> > >> >give
> >> >> > >> >> >> >them
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those
> >events,
> >> >> > >> >> >politically,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for
their
> >> own
> >> >> > >agenda,
> >> >> > >> >> and
> >> >> > >> >> >> >not
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much of
> the
> >> >> public.
> >> >> > >> It
> >> >> > >> >> >was
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think
"free
> >> >Iraq
> >> >> > >from
> >> >> > >> >> >tyranny"
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public
> >don't
> >> >> seem
> >> >> > >> to
> >> >> > >> >> care
> >> >> > >> >> >> >if
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so
you
> >> have
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > >> tell
> >> >> > >> >> >them
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied
about
> >> that
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > >> >*almost*
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>would
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't
have
> >> >> stomached
> >> >> > >> >that
> >> >> > >> >> >> >as
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I
think
> >> if
> >> >the
> >> >> > >U.S.
> >> >> > >> >> had
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on the
> >U.N.
> >> >> that
> >> >> > >> >> >eventually
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think
GWB
> >> & co
> >> >
> >> >> > >> >actually
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone
they
> >> >could
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > >> in
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>charge,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as
the
> >> >> country
> >> >> > >> was
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a
> >matter
> >> >of
> >> >> > >time
> >> >> > >> >> >before
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They could
> >only
> >> >> > >> >> >procrastinate
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>for
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was watching.
> A
> >> >whole
> >> >> > >swag
> >> >> > >> >> of
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>countries
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a
little
> >> >> more".
> >> >> > >> Sure
> >> >> > >> >> it
> >> >> > >> >> >> >was
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would have
> >been
> >> >> worth
> >> >> > >> it.
> >> >> > >> >> >The
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>way
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB was
> >just
> >> >> hell
> >> >> > >> bent
> >> >> > >> >> on
> >> >> > >> >> >> >war
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a little
> >longer
> >> >> > >would
> >> >> > >> >> have
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>made
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO, whether
> >the
> >> >> U.N.
> >> >> > >> >> >actually
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>ended
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main
group.
> >> DOH
> >> >> > >DOH!!
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >>
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >> >
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>...............and furthermore, I think I am getting the impression from your
posts that you believe that I thought all of these Europpeans wer bad people
somehow. Tjhat is not the case. I am as disappointed in the Europeans as you
obviously are at the US. We can disagree. If you think that somehow I am
going to go along with dropping a nuke somewhere then you are mistaken. My
post to Neil was meant as a rather grim joke, but these are grim times. What
would you have us do if we have credible evidence that Tehran has their
finger on the button that will send a nuke to Berlin? Do you want us to wait
while the UN argues about it and Berlin burns to the ground? I assure you
that this is a possible scenario.....maybe not Berlin, but somewhere in the
neighborhood..........and kissing the asses of this *non--stereotypical
humaniod being with no cultural bias whatsoever which is not driving his
non-ideology* will not do much to discourage him fromnuclear blackmail once
he has the capability.
This is a very big difference that I'm seeing between us.
Best,
Doug
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:42d6cb58@linux...
> Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
> these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe* who were
> professionals, hippies, soldiers, tradesmen and were there for long
periods
> of time, returning to this place again and again, year after year for
almost
> 20 years and I saw the same thing happen, again and again, year after year
> for almost 20 years, so I'm sure there is no reason to assume there's any
> relationship between what I experienced and what is reality.
>
>
> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6c7de$1@linux...
> >
> > doug, the "let me explain america to you" part was, of course, pure
> irony.
> > but im somehow glad that
> > you missed it, because it should give you a nice impression
> > about how your ranting about
> > the europe you believe to know so much about comes
> > across to someone who actually does know a thing or two
> > about europe because he happens to live there.
> >
> > the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so
much
> > >about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very
> small
> > >sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often,
> but
> > >you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully
> > what
> > >you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any
more
> > >valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming from
> > and
> > >make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but
> > I
> > >assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you
> like
> > >it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do
> truly
> > >have your head buried in the sand.
> > >
> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:42d6bf8a$1@linux...
> > >>
> > >> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem
> > >> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are
> > >> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your
> > >> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch
> > >> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere
> > >> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know
> > >> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you
> > >> what america is and how america works, because i do know.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> unbelievable. even funny in a way.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
> > >> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!!
bad
> > >bad
> > >> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
> > >> *throws tomato*
> > >>
> > >> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
> > >> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
> > >> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
> > >> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
> > >> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be all
> that
> > >> bad.
> > >>
> > >> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more to
> > the
> > >> whole story than
> > >> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
> > >> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
> > >> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
> > >> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
> > >> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
> > >> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
> > >> every country, every institution is like that, its
> > >> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
> > >> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kindergarden stereotypes
> > >> such as the impressively well researched ones you had to offer -
> > >> greedy selifish europe or, equally stupid, the oh so evil USA, all
that
> > BS
> > >> thats only
> > >> there because some people like to have everything in easy categories)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> its only different this time because mr.bush felt like
> > >> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
> > >> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
> > >> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
> > >>
> > >> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
> > >> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
> > >> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
> > >> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
> > >> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
> > >> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
> > >> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
> > >> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
> > >> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
> > >> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
> > >> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
> > >> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
> > >> half socialist bastard),
> > >> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
> > >>
> > >> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
> > >> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
> > >> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
> > >>
> > >> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
> > >> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
> > >> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so
> funny
> > >> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
> > >> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
> > >> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
> > >> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
> > >> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
> > >> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
> > >>
> > >> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
> > >> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
> > >> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
> > >> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
> > >> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
> > >>
> > >> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55728 is a reply to message #55727] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 13:28 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this
in
> > a
> > >> >brief a post as possible.
> > >> >
> > >> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and
> decent
> > >> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
> > >international
> > >> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same
> problems
> > >> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and it
> was
> > >> a
> > >> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend
> human
> > >> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
> > >> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it
> political
> > >> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
> > >happened
> > >> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family
> that
> > >> ws
> > >> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
> > >together
> > >> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had
known
> > me
> > >> for
> > >> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
> > >noticing.
> > >> >
> > >> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the
> French
> > >> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each
other.
> > >The
> > >> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa. The
> > >Germans
> > >> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted
> > to
> > >> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
> > >Americans
> > >> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and
other
> > >> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the
Europeans,
> > >lots
> > >> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians.
The
> > >> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
> > >Americans.
> > >> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the
Europeans
> > or
> > >> the
> > >> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone
else
> > >there.
> > >> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing.
The
> > >> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality
> eventually
> > >> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
> > >beach).
> > >> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc.
> posada.
> > >> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service to
> > the
> > >> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this
and
> > >their
> > >> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group of
> > >people
> > >> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and
> politics............so
> > >> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard
this,
> > I
> > >> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff I
> could
> > >> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at me,
I
> > am
> > >> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things
> ought
> > >> to
> > >> >be.
> > >> >
> > >> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for
> travelling
> > >> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful
down
> > >there
> > >> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics and
> > >drugs
> > >> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like
Salvador
> > >only
> > >> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but I
> > saw
> > >> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
> > >bloodthirsty
> > >> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine
> > in
> > >> your
> > >> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can
assure
> > >you
> > >> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads.
It
> > was
> > >> >just reported that way in the press.
> > >> >
> > >> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I am
> > >> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked.
We
> > >know
> > >> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions
of
> > >people
> > >> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
> and
> > >> was
> > >> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that he
was
> > >some
> > >> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had
> waited
> > >> for
> > >> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had
> supported
> > >> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me
little
> > >faith
> > >> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this
> > >> >experience.
> > >> >
> > >> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are
very
> > >> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so
> > >yes......I
> > >> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of
evil
> > >> >person, but I'll get over it.
> > >> >
> > >> >Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> >Doug
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> > >> >news:42d54f92@linux...
> > >> >> Ok Derek,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> > >> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
reading
> > the
> > >> >> stereotype BS you spread<
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make
someone
> > >*bad*
> > >> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based
> > on
> > >> real
> > >> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's ugly
> > to
> > >> me
> > >> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though
they
> > >are
> > >> >not
> > >> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they
are
> > >very
> > >> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my life
> > as
> > >> part
> > >> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born
in
> > >1950.
> > >> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US
which
> > was
> > >> >full
> > >> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly
things
> > >very
> > >> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect
> > of
> > >> this
> > >> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was
> > >something
> > >> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing. I
> > also
> > >> >came
> > >> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of
these
> > >> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also a
baby
> > >grand
> > >> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up on
> the
> > >> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because I
> > >could
> > >> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the
> keys
> > >> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived
in
> > >south
> > >> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus
Christi,
> > >Texas)
> > >> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father.
> > He
> > >> was
> > >> >a
> > >> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work
> designing
> > >> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were
> sponsored
> > >> by
> > >> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which was
> > >> >basically
> > >> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more
> > >ugliness
> > >> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was so
> > >> >obviously
> > >> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse it,
> > but
> > >> I
> > >> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called
> > >here,
> > >> a
> > >> >> *problem child*
> > >> >>
> > >> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band
that
> > was
> > >> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly
large
> > >> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening
> shows
> > >> for
> > >> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam
> > Vets
> > >> >who
> > >> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and also
> > >opiates
> > >> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war
> counterculture
> > >> and
> > >> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type
> entertainment
> > >> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would
> make
> > >> them
> > >> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked on
> > >> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and
had
> > >been
> > >> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to do
> what
> > >> >they
> > >> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career
(which
> > was
> > >> >less
> > >> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus I
> was
> > >> so
> > >> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative
spark
> > >that
> > >> >I
> > >> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway.
> > I
> > >> >didn't
> > >> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out on
my
> > >> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered
to
> > be
> > >> >> *cool*, at least in Texas.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed
over
> > >there.
> > >> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more
> and
> > >> more
> > >> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
> > >> >philosophy
> > >> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial
> > >anarchism.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They
were
> > >the
> > >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business
> > with
> > >> in
> > >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were,
like
> > me,
> > >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships. I
> > >started
> > >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would
> travel
> > >> to
> > >> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were
> mostly
> > >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians,
who
> > >were
> > >> >not
> > >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these
> *enlightened*
> > >> >young
> > >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
> > >> >traditionalists
> > >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends
> > of
> > >> my
> > >> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met
quite
> > a
> > >> few
> > >> >of
> > >> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age and
> > >would
> > >> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we
shared
> > a
> > >> lot
> > >> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming
> > >increasing
> > >> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge were
> > the
> > >> >ones
> > >> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away
> from
> > >> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California
scene.
> > My
> > >> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from
Texas,
> > had
> > >> a
> > >> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established
> myself.
> > >> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in the
> > film
> > >> >and
> > >> >> music industry and their kids.
> > >> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
> > >> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
> > >> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
> > >> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug
culture
> > >that
> > >> >was
> > >> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with the
> > rest
> > >> of
> > >> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
> > >> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The
> > >decadence
> > >> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but it
> wasn't
> > >> >cool
> > >> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew
> some
> > >> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to the
> > >ranch
> > >> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their
leader,
> > was
> > >> in
> > >> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One of
my
> > >> >cousins
> > >> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson
> who
> > >> had
> > >> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people
> you
> > >> can
> > >> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
> > >> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
> > >> >lifestyle
> > >> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes du
> > >jour*
> > >> I
> > >> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the
moving
> > >women)
> > >> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and
> abortions
> > >> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as the
> > >various
> > >> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro
> American
> > >> >> citizens
> > >> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war
> > >protests
> > >> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a
major
> > >> >degree
> > >> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and
economics.
> > >This
> > >> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of
> career
> > >> >path
> > >> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew
my
> > >way
> > >> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to
> Mexico.
> > >> I
> > >> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place
> during
> > >> my
> > >> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a
> deserted
> > >> >place
> > >> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who I
> have
> > >> met
> > >> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same
> kind
> > >> of
> > >> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem,
> Katmandhu,
> > >> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
> > >> >destinations.
> > >> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned by
> > a
> > >> >Zapotec
> > >> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family, two
> > of
> > >> >which
> > >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this
small
> > >> >village
> > >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good
> part
> > >> of
> > >> >my
> > >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times
> from
> > >> 1973
> > >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used to
be
> > and
> > >> >now
> > >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of the
> story
> > >> >> about thie place.
> > >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it.
You
> > may
> > >> >have
> > >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story
but
> > I
> > >> have
> > >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I have
> > the
> > >> >time.
> > >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
> > >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me a
> > >question
> > >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later if
> you
> > >> are
> > >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was my
> home
> > >> and
> > >> >is
> > >> >> still my second home-
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow
up
> > >and
> > >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful
young
> > >> >woman,
> > >> >> Claudia is the
> > >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were
guests
> > at
> > >> my
> > >> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched
the
> > >events
> > >> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some bad
> > drug
> > >> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of the
> > >social
> > >> >> experiment that is
> > >> >> happening there.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
> > >> >>
> > >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and
> what
> > >> the
> > >> >> place was like the last time I was there.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
> > >> >>
> > >> >> more to come......
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Regards,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Doug
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:42d45df1@linux...
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
> > >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
> > >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
> > >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize
> > you.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass or
> > >> >something.
> > >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief*
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >Regards,
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >DJ
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> > >> >news:42d45332$1@linux...
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> you know how i meant it.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> whatever.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe
would
> > >learn
> > >> >> from
> > >> >> > >> the
> > >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
> > >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> doug,
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
> > >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> regards,
> > >> >> > >> >> derek
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
> > >> >> > >seriously.............
> > >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real
> > >proactive
> > >> >> > with
> > >> >> > >> >their
> > >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in
> Holland
> > >> >these
> > >> >> > >days
> > >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny
> about
> > >> how
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > >> >Euro's
> > >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then
> when
> > >> the
> > >> >> chips
> > >> >> > >> >are
> > >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective
> > >asses
> > >> >and
> > >> >> > >watch
> > >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh
> shit!!!!
> > >> >> > >> >.......those
> > >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and
> > >spoiled
> > >> >all
> > >> >> > >our
> > >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam
> > and
> > >> >pick
> > >> >> > up
> > >> >> > >> a
> > >> >> > >> >> few
> > >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids who
> > are
> > >> >dying
> > >> >> > of
> > >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye to
> his
> > >> >> > >violations
> > >> >> > >> >> of
> > >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting
> the
> > >> >flies
> > >> >> > off
> > >> >> > >> >their
> > >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
> > >> >> disentery.........and
> > >> >> > >> >just
> > >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room.
> Whaddaya
> > >> say
> > >> >> > >guys?
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message
> > >news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially
your
> > 3rd
> > >> &
> > >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the
most
> > >evil
> > >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth. I
> find
> > >> it
> > >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could be
> > the
> > >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was
> really
> > >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into
> > >Iraq...
> > >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by the
> > >Iraqi's
> > >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda
> against
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to
> being
> > >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only
> thing
> > >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
> > >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers &
limit
>
> > >their
> > >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that a
> > good
> > >> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that
occurs
> > >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an
> Islamic
> > >> >city.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another
> embassy?
> > >> OK,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb
this
> > >time.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long
before
> > we
> > >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a
good
> > >long
> > >> >> > >> >> >> time.
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the
US -
> > big
> > >> US
> > >> >> > oil
> > >> >> > >> >> >companies.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning it
in
> > >bombed
> > >> >> > >> >pipelines
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was
> about
> > >> >> > >> >destabilizing
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and make
> > >> >billions
> > >> >> > for
> > >> >> > >> >> >George's
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to
bankrupt
> > the
> > >> US
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > >> >same
> > >> >> > >> >> >> way
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan as
> > >payback
> > >> >> > for
> > >> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending
> > him
> > >> or
> > >> >> his
> > >> >> > >> >agenda
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly -
and
> > >our
> > >> >> > >so-called
> > >> >> > >> >> >friends
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt
> > the
> > >> US
> > >> >> > >> >government
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money
> > as
> > >> >> possible
> > >> >> > >> to
> > >> >> > >> >> >their
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects and
> > >military
> > >> >> > >> >contracts,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what
little
> > >> >social
> > >> >> > >> >> >safety-net
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
> > >> >directly
> > >> >> > >with
> > >> >> > >> >> high
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the US
> back
> > >> to
> > >> >the
> > >> >> > >early
> > >> >> > >> >> >1900s
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the
conservative
> > >> >> ideology)
> > >> >> > >> is
> > >> >> > >> >> to
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the
public
> > >simply
> > >> >> > >can't
> > >> >> > >> >> >afford
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying to
> > >> >bankrupt
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > >> US
> > >> >> > >> >> >government
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends, and
> > he's
> > >> >> doing
> > >> >> > >> a
> > >> >> > >> >great
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >job.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
> > >don't
> > >> >> seem
> > >> >> > >> to
> > >> >> > >> >> >consider.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of
> wealth
> > >> >> through
> > >> >> > >> >> >taxation,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses and
> > >> >nobodies
> > >> >> > >wealth
> > >> >> > >> >> is
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks
> > the
> > >> >> economy.
> > >> >> > >> >> Why?
> > >> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't
spend
> > >100%
> > >> >of
> > >> >> > >every
> > >> >> > >> >> >dollar
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments
generally
> > >spend
> > >> >> > >every
> > >> >> > >> >> red
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for
his
> > >rich
> > >> >> > >friends,
> > >> >> > >> >> >the
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people
> save
> > >> and
> > >> >> > >> >government
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting
> > of
> > >> >> America.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the
direction
> > >that
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> > >> US
> > >> >> > >> >> is
> > >> >> > >> >> >> heading
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same
> agenda.
> > >> >> There's
> > >> >> > >> no
> > >> >> > >> >> >success
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell
you
> > >how
> > >> >> > >> >heartbroken
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election.
> I've
> > >> >> always
> > >> >> > >> >> >believed
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these
> are
> > >> very
> > >> >> > >> >worrisome
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >times.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by
> > this
> > >> >> > >> >senselessness
> > >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone
> else.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion. I
do
> > >not,
> > >> >> > >however,
> > >> >> > >> >> >agree
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have
done
> > no
> > >> >good
> > >> >> > at
> > >> >> > >> all
> > >> >> > >> >> >(my
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those
> opposed
> > >> to
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > >> war
> > >> >> > >> >> >feel
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay
> could
> > >> have
> > >> >> > >easily
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the
> border
> > >> in
> > >> >> Syria
> > >> >> > >> or
> > >> >> > >> >> in
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think
this
> > >story
> > >> >is
> > >> >> > >over
> > >> >> > >> >> >yet.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >I
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately want
> > it
> > >> to
> > >> >be
> > >> >> > >over
> > >> >> > >> >> so
> > >> >> > >> >> >> they
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness, all
> the
> > >> >while
> > >> >> > >> >bellowing
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any
> found,
> > >> >> > >therefore,
> > >> >> > >> >> the
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's
> absolute
> > >> >lowest
> > >> >> > >> >partisan
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
> > >> >resolutions
> > >> >> > and
> > >> >> > >> in
> > >> >> > >> >> >doing
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven
> > >menace
> > >> >to
> > >> >> > >> >stability
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't
> > >happened?
> > >> I
> > >> >> > >don't
> > >> >> > >> >> >know,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded in
> > >> >shooting
> > >> >> > >down
> > >> >> > >> >> one
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >of
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and
we
> > >would
> > >> >> have
> > >> >> > >> >done
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't
> > give
> > >> a
> > >> >> damn
> > >> >> > >> >about
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping
> > >Sadaam
> > >> >in
> > >> >> > >power
> > >> >> > >> >> >was
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I
> guarantee
> > >> we
> > >> >> would
> > >> >> > >> >have
> > >> >> > >> >> >> half
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the
> pipelines
> > >> and
> > >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat
dry
> > as
> > >> a
> > >> >> bone
> > >> >> > >> as
> > >> >> > >> >> we
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans
> aren't
> > >> >> subtle.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net>
wrote:
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the only
> > ones
> > >> on
> > >> >> > >earth
> > >> >> > >> >> who
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >saw
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> any
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because I
> *hate*
> > >> >the
> > >> >> > way
> > >> >> > >> >they
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >went
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror
thing
> > >(which
> > >> >> > was
> > >> >> > >> >> >clearly
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that
GWB
> > and
> > >> co
> > >> >> > >wanted
> > >> >> > >> >> >Saddam
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man,
but
> > >> >because
> > >> >> > >they
> > >> >> > >> >> >noticed
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured
"freeing"
> > >Iraq
> > >> >> would
> > >> >> > >> >give
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >them
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those
> > >events,
> > >> >> > >> >> >politically,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for
> their
> > >> own
> > >> >> > >agenda,
> > >> >> > >> >> and
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >not
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much
of
> > the
> > >> >> public.
> > >> >> > >> It
> > >> >> > >> >> >was
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think
> "free
> > >> >Iraq
> > >> >> > >from
> > >> >> > >> >> >tyranny"
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public
> > >don't
> > >> >> seem
> > >> >> > >> to
> > >> >> > >> >> care
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >if
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer, so
> you
> > >> have
> > >> >> > to
> > >> >> > >> tell
> > >> >> > >> >> >them
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied
> about
> > >> that
> > >> >> > I
> > >> >> > >> >*almost*
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>would
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't
> have
> > >> >> stomached
> > >> >> > >> >that
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >as
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil. I
> think
> > >> if
> > >> >the
> > >> >> > >U.S.
> > >> >> > >> >> had
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue on
the
> > >U.N.
> > >> >> that
> > >> >> > >> >> >eventually
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think
> GWB
> > >> & co
> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >actually
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone
> they
> > >> >could
> > >> >> > be
> > >> >> > >> in
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>charge,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically as
> the
> > >> >> country
> > >> >> > >> was
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only a
> > >matter
> > >> >of
> > >> >> > >time
> > >> >> > >> >> >before
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They
could
> > >only
> > >> >> > >> >> >procrastinate
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>for
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was
watching.
> > A
> > >> >whole
> > >> >> > >swag
> > >> >> > >> >> of
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>countries
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just a
> little
> > >> >> more".
> > >> >> > >> Sure
> > >> >> > >> >> it
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >was
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would
have
> > >been
> > >> >> worth
> > >> >> > >> it.
> > >> >> > >> >> >The
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>way
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB
was
> > >just
> > >> >> hell
> > >> >> > >> bent
> > >> >> > >> >> on
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a
little
> > >longer
> > >> >> > >would
> > >> >> > >> >> have
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>made
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO,
whether
> > >the
> > >> >> U.N.
> > >> >> > >> >> >actually
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>ended
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main
> group.
> > >> DOH
> > >> >> > >DOH!!
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
---=_linux42d6d181
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
>ha ha) -
Grow up... it wasn't a joke. If we fight these groups in a
piecemeal fashion, then it'll go on forever. Same as if we had
invaded Japan to try & end the war vs. what we ended up doing.
Oh, and BTW, I HAVE lived in Europe... and while I don't agree
very much with Deej's opinions on that topic, I've noticed that
you Euros have indeed gotten more & more cocky towards America
each year that you haven't had 10,000 Soviet tanks
**parked** **right** **here...
---=_linux42d6d181
Content-Type: image/pjpeg; name="C:\Documents and Settings\nhenders\Desktop\OPAlpha1.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OPAlpha1.jpg"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|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55729 is a reply to message #55724] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 13:56 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
2WX/njDW3O1sCg3sURZ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---=_linux42d6d181--or, in short: "i know europe - cause i know some europeans
that live here in the US".
that pretty much stands nicely by itself.
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
>these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe*its obvious that i dont reach your conscious mind.
your argueing against things i havent even said. youre argueing
against what you believe is my picture of the US, even though
i explicitly stated the *exact opposite* (that i find both
the selfish socialist europe and the evil america clichee
ridiculous, its down there in my post, maybe you should
actually go forward and try to READ it).
youre in full auto-argueing-mode, serving some standard
"antiliberal" phrases that dont have anything to do with what
i said, on the contrary, its the discussion i again explicitly
mentioned as a useless discussion that leads nowhere and
will always be based on speculation on all sides.
i am NOT
the standard discussion target that wants to debate whether
george bush is evil or whatever - its again all down there in
the post. im not interested in that. i didnt even write
a single word about that in my initial post, you brought
the assumption up that i might be "one of those" (TM)
who thinks that george bush and with him the entire USA
is eeeeeeeevil. im not.
i made my point about what i think
about your euro stereotype BS and how justified it is or not
(thats some "non-non-judgmentalism" right there for you).
i noted to you that there is a difference between i.e. a handful
of italians living in the US and the country italia with
its citicens, that one cant judge one by the other.
you can acknowledge that or not, your choice.
if you want an iraq-related discussion (again something
you brought up), i inform you that the only discussion
i am interested in is the basic discussion and comparison
of concepts - i even went as far as to say that the
concept of preemptive strikes is "fair enough", for the sake
of a meaningful discussion, even though i personally believe
that deescalation is the better way to go, an opinion i dont
base on some doctrince but on what i see in israel, which
not only serves as a good and current example for the different concepts
but conveniently even has the same enemy your currently
fighting for.
when youre ready for that kind of discussion, im all ears.
but spare me the standard BS. its not helping, and you know it.
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>..............and furthermore, I think I am getting the impression from
your
>posts that you believe that I thought all of these Europpeans wer bad people
>somehow. Tjhat is not the case. I am as disappointed in the Europeans as
you
>obviously are at the US. We can disagree. If you think that somehow I am
>going to go along with dropping a nuke somewhere then you are mistaken.
My
>post to Neil was meant as a rather grim joke, but these are grim times.
What
>would you have us do if we have credible evidence that Tehran has their
>finger on the button that will send a nuke to Berlin? Do you want us to
wait
>while the UN argues about it and Berlin burns to the ground? I assure you
>that this is a possible scenario.....maybe not Berlin, but somewhere in
the
>neighborhood..........and kissing the asses of this *non--stereotypical
>humaniod being with no cultural bias whatsoever which is not driving his
>non-ideology* will not do much to discourage him fromnuclear blackmail once
>he has the capability.
>
>This is a very big difference that I'm seeing between us.
>
>Best,
>
>Doug
>
>"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>news:42d6cb58@linux...
>> Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
>> these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe* who were
>> professionals, hippies, soldiers, tradesmen and were there for long
>periods
>> of time, returning to this place again and again, year after year for
>almost
>> 20 years and I saw the same thing happen, again and again, year after
year
>> for almost 20 years, so I'm sure there is no reason to assume there's
any
>> relationship between what I experienced and what is reality.
>>
>>
>> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6c7de$1@linux...
>> >
>> > doug, the "let me explain america to you" part was, of course, pure
>> irony.
>> > but im somehow glad that
>> > you missed it, because it should give you a nice impression
>> > about how your ranting about
>> > the europe you believe to know so much about comes
>> > across to someone who actually does know a thing or two
>> > about europe because he happens to live there.
>> >
>> > the sad part being, in your case it wasnt irony.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >First of all, now I am really astounded at you. You say you know so
>much
>> > >about America??????? You are also getting your information from a very
>> small
>> > >sample. I know you lived here for a while and have visited here often,
>> but
>> > >you don't live here *now* and you are obviously choosing very carefully
>> > what
>> > >you want to believe. If you want to consider your sources to be any
>more
>> > >valid than mine, then first consider where your sources are coming
from
>> > and
>> > >make sure you consider them all. I will try to do the same..........but
>> > I
>> > >assure you that if you ignore cultural differences which, whether you
>> like
>> > >it or not, are the reasons that stereotypes are created, they you do
>> truly
>> > >have your head buried in the sand.
>> > >
>> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>news:42d6bf8a$1@linux...
>> > >>
>> > >> wheres the part with the long visits to the countries you seem
>> > >> to know enough about to be sure that your stereotypes are
>> > >> "real"? you are really trying to tell ME (i LIVE here...) that your
>> > >> stereotypes are "the truth" because of the bunch
>> > >> stereotype-ish people that conveniently lived somewhere
>> > >> near you in the last 20 years? you know, i happen to know
>> > >> some americans that live here too. so let me explain to you
>> > >> what america is and how america works, because i do know.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> unbelievable. even funny in a way.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> that non-judgmentalism you talk about, yeah i know, it currently
>> > >> is peoples favourite enemy de la saison. ooooh non-judgmentalism!!!
>bad
>> > >bad
>> > >> bad!!! its the antichrist! booooh!
>> > >> *throws tomato*
>> > >>
>> > >> i gotta tell you, reading about how "well founded" your
>> > >> ideas of europe were (reminds me of last time where you
>> > >> marked "stefan schroeder" or some such as member of the
>> > >> "evil" (TM) club, while not even knowing his actual name), i
>> > >> think a little dose of humility and non-judgmentalism wouldnt be
all
>> that
>> > >> bad.
>> > >>
>> > >> i wont go into the iraq thing any more than say that there is more
to
>> > the
>> > >> whole story than
>> > >> "violating UN sanctions" (which other countries like israel
>> > >> or the US do just as much, not that it matters anymore).
>> > >> fuck that dumb dicussion about peoples motivations -
>> > >> usually a country operates driven by a mixture of greed,
>> > >> egoism, a little dose of humanism and morality (preferably when it
>> > >> happens to be in sync with other interests) and power.
>> > >> every country, every institution is like that, its
>> > >> only the mixture that varies a bit - discussions about
>> > >> that lead nowhere (at best they lead to kind
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55731 is a reply to message #55728] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 14:29 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
ifferent this time because mr.bush felt like
>> > >> trying a new concept, throwing away the idea of "be like
>> > >> you want your neighbour to be" and a set or rules and coming
>> > >> up with the - rather explosive - idea of preemptive strikes.
>> > >>
>> > >> in the end, we all want the same thing. so coming up with
>> > >> this new concept is fair enough. but it naturally leads to
>> > >> the basic argument about deescalation versus brute force.
>> > >> the whole "ah theyre just selfish cowards" blabla is
>> > >> just a nice excuse so that one doesnt have to face this
>> > >> discussion, cause as we all well know, those countries
>> > >> that supposedly are so selfish as to not join the saint
>> > >> that is the USA, for some reason did join and support them
>> > >> in the past. heck, they might even support them in other causes
>> > >> (my favourite example being long forgotten afghanistan, where
>> > >> my country i.e. is still helping out on every corner, despite
>> > >> the fact that were led by mr. selfish evil stefan schroeder, the
>> > >> half socialist bastard),
>> > >> which somehow is quite illogical, dont you think?
>> > >>
>> > >> anyway, that discussion leads nowhere, its just a nebula bomb
>> > >> thrown by supporters of the preemptive strike idea that
>> > >> fear the actual comparison of concepts.
>> > >>
>> > >> just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>> > >> (who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>> > >> for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so
>> funny
>> > >> ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
>> > >> different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
>> > >> brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
>> > >> conflict ending concept. deescalation had about 5 years
>> > >> (you know, until that religious dumbass shot rabin).
>> > >> which concept came closer to actual peace? you tell me.
>> > >>
>> > >> im much more interested in that basic discussion of concepts
>> > >> than in dealing stereotype bullshit like the "selfish
>> > >> socialist europe" or the equally stupid speculation about
>> > >> whether mr. bush's motivation is a selfish one or a selfless act
>> > >> (i would guess its a typical case of a mixture).
>> > >>
>> > >> im too old for that BS. and you should be too. honestly.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >Well, I've got little time here so I'm going to try to finish this
>in
>> > a
>> > >> >brief a post as possible.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >To sum up the previous post.......after 1976, when electricity and
>> decent
>> > >> >roads were brought into this area, it became an increasingly
>> > >international
>> > >> >community of people and a big experiment in socialism. The same
>> problems
>> > >> >that inevitably doom socialism to failure, were very evident and
it
>> was
>> > >> a
>> > >> >real eye opener to those among us who thouight we could transcend
>> human
>> > >> >nature for the *good of the group*. Also the permissiveness and
>> > >> >non-judgmentalism that was part of this experiment (we call it
>> political
>> > >> >correctness now) caused a lot of problems. One really funny thing
>> > >happened
>> > >> >early on. The Indians who were all part of the big extended family
>> that
>> > >> ws
>> > >> >running this place were all laughing like crazy one night at a get
>> > >together
>> > >> >they were having. I could understand their dialect and they had
>known
>> > me
>> > >> for
>> > >> >years. wht they were laughing about was the stereotypes they were
>> > >noticing.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >The French tourists distrusted the Germans. The Italians and the
>> French
>> > >> >seemed to be in some sort of competition all the time with each
>other.
>> > >The
>> > >> >Quebecois Canadians pretty much hated the French and vice versa.
The
>> > >Germans
>> > >> >and the Americans got along pretty well, though no one really wanted
>> > to
>> > >> >admit liking the Americans much when Americans weren't around. The
>> > >Americans
>> > >> >seemed to have very strange reltionships with the Europeans and
>other
>> > >> >Americans. Some of the Americans wanted to be liked by the
>Europeans,
>> > >lots
>> > >> >of the Americans wanted everyone to think they were Californians.
>The
>> > >> >Scandinavians were a bit aloof from the rest of the Europeans and
>> > >Americans.
>> > >> >The Texans weren't really considered to be Americans by the
>Europeans
>> > or
>> > >> the
>> > >> >Mexicans and got along better with the Mexicans than with anyone
>else
>> > >there.
>> > >> >There were lots of other things like this that they were noticing.
>The
>> > >> >really telling thing about it all was that every nationality
>> eventually
>> > >> >ended up at their own posada (sort of like an outdoor hotel on the
>> > >beach).
>> > >> >There was the German, French, Spanish, Swiss, American......etc.
>> posada.
>> > >> >Just like all of these people who were willing to pay lip service
to
>> > the
>> > >> >idea of one big happy worle, were totally unable to practice this
>and
>> > >their
>> > >> >preconceptions and stereotypes where easy to recognize by a group
of
>> > >people
>> > >> >who were totally unfamiliar with world history and
>> politics............so
>> > >> >they saw the stereotypic BS that you ascribe to me. Once I heard
>this,
>> > I
>> > >> >started paying attention to it and there is a lot more ugly stuff
I
>> could
>> > >> >say about it, but it would do no good and despite your anger at
me,
>I
>> > am
>> > >> >basing my opinions on real experience, not theories of how things
>> ought
>> > >> to
>> > >> >be.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >During the 70's and 80's this was a good jumping off place for
>> travelling
>> > >> >further down into central and south america. It was pretty awful
>down
>> > >there
>> > >> >because there was a lot of killing going on, boith over politics
and
>> > >drugs
>> > >> >(which were pretty much the same). The Hollywood movies like
>Salvador
>> > >only
>> > >> >show one side of this *freedom fighter* picture. It was awful, but
I
>> > saw
>> > >> >some stuff down there that was done by Cuban agents and their
>> > >bloodthirsty
>> > >> >guerilla allies that was as bad as anything you can possibly imagine
>> > in
>> > >> your
>> > >> >worst nightmares. None of this kind of stuff is good, but I can
>assure
>> > >you
>> > >> >that Americans weren't the only ones associated with death squads.
>It
>> > was
>> > >> >just reported that way in the press.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >As far as my comments which apparently have convinced you that I
am
>> > >> >unrecoginzable, perhaps I am. People change. We have been attacked.
>We
>> > >know
>> > >> >how long it takes the UN do anything. In the meantime.....millions
>of
>> > >people
>> > >> >can die. Sadaam had been in violation of the UN sanctions for years
>> and
>> > >> was
>> > >> >in a position to do us a lot of harm. I don't buy the idea that
he
>was
>> > >some
>> > >> >non-threat. Saying that we should have waited longer after we had
>> waited
>> > >> for
>> > >> >10 years while the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats had
>> supported
>> > >> >Sadaam against the same resolutions they had approved gives me
>little
>> > >faith
>> > >> >in the UN doing anything right or in a timely manner and given this
>> > >> >experience.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >I think the European people should be supporting us and they are
>very
>> > >> >divided about this. My opinions are mixed about them as well so
>> > >yes......I
>> > >> >have changed. I'm tryly sorry that you now see me as some kind of
>evil
>> > >> >person, but I'll get over it.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Regards,
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Doug
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
>> > >> >news:42d54f92@linux...
>> > >> >> Ok Derek,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
>> > >> >> but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
>reading
>> > the
>> > >> >> stereotype BS you spread<
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I'm not spouting stereotypes for the sake of trying to make
>someone
>> > >*bad*
>> > >> >> and someone else *good*. I am relating the truth I have seen based
>> > on
>> > >> real
>> > >> >> world experience. If it's ugly to you, then that's good. It's
ugly
>> > to
>> > >> me
>> > >> >> too. When I look at what is happening I see stereotypes, though
>they
>> > >are
>> > >> >not
>> > >> >> racial, they are cultural, they are constantly evolving and they
>are
>> > >very
>> > >> >> real. From around 1965 through 1995 I spent a good part of my
life
>> > as
>> > >> part
>> > >> >> of one of these evolving stereotypes.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I am old compared to most of the folks here, I think. I was born
>in
>> > >1950.
>> > >> >> The town where I was born was a small town in the southern US
>which
>> > was
>> > >> >full
>> > >> >> of hypocracy and racial predjudice. I remember some very ugly
>things
>> > >very
>> > >> >> vividly. Without going into a lot of detail about this, the effect
>> > of
>> > >> this
>> > >> >> made me really angry and very willing to believe that there was
>> > >something
>> > >> >> wrong with what my parents generation was saying, but not doing.
I
>> > also
>> > >> >came
>> > >> >> to distrust organized religion at a very early age because of
>these
>> > >> >> experiences and the hypocracy I saw.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> My grandmother had a big hammond organ in her parlor and also
a
>baby
>> > >grand
>> > >> >> piano. From the time I was about 5 years old, I would climb up
on
>> the
>> > >> >> benches and play the keys. I was told I had a *good ear* because
I
>> > >could
>> > >> >> listen to the radio songs and figure out how to play them on the
>> keys
>> > >> >> (though I couldn't reach the pedals ;o). During the 50's, I lived
>in
>> > >south
>> > >> >> Texas (part of the time in Erling's favorite place, Corpus
>Christi,
>> > >Texas)
>> > >> >> and travelled across the border into Mexico often with my father.
>> > He
>> > >> was
>> > >> >a
>> > >> >> merchanical design engineer and a pilot and did a lot of work
>> designing
>> > >> >> large installations for the agricultural interests which were
>> sponsored
>> > >> by
>> > >> >> both rich Mexican landowners and the Mexican government (which
was
>> > >> >basically
>> > >> >> rich Mexican and other international landowners) I saw lots more
>> > >ugliness
>> > >> >> there as far as exploitation of people by other people. It was
so
>> > >> >obviously
>> > >> >> wrong and when I would ask my father about it, he would excuse
it,
>> > but
>> > >> I
>> > >> >> couldn't accept this. I became very rebellous and a what is called
>> > >here,
>> > >> a
>> > >> >> *problem child*
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> By 1965, this pissed off 15 year old kid was playing in a band
>that
>> > was
>> > >> >> fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be recognized in a fairly
>large
>> > >> >> regional market. By the time I was 17 years old we were opening
>> shows
>> > >> for
>> > >> >> touring acts. Our roadies were a bunch of disillusioned ex VietNam
>> > Vets
>> > >> >who
>> > >> >> were majorly into drugs (especially asian varieies of pot and
also
>> > >opiates
>> > >> >> and LSD/hallucenogens) and the emerging drug/anti war
>> counterculture
>> > >> and
>> > >> >> our management were a bunch of old school hollywood type
>> entertainment
>> > >> >> industry scumbags who would exploit their own mother if it would
>> make
>> > >> them
>> > >> >> $$$. They had no problem keeping a bunch of young kids tweaked
on
>> > >> >> amphetamines to make sure they were *up for the gig*.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> By 1968, I had somehow managed to graduate from high school and
>had
>> > >been
>> > >> >> accepted to a number of universities. My folks were willing to
do
>> what
>> > >> >they
>> > >> >> could to help and I knew I couldn't sustain the music career
>(which
>> > was
>> > >> >less
>> > >> >> a career and more like a party) and continue my education, plus
I
>> was
>> > >> so
>> > >> >> totally burned out from the *lifestyle* that whatever creative
>spark
>> > >that
>> > >> >I
>> > >> >> had tried to cultivate during this time was in the crapper anyway.
>> > I
>> > >> >didn't
>> > >> >> want to be a musician any more. I was not, however, burned out
on
>my
>> > >> >> countercultural beliefs. I was *into it* before it was considered
>to
>> > be
>> > >> >> *cool*, at least in Texas.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> There was this war going on and lots of my friends were headed
>over
>> > >there.
>> > >> >> This country was being torn apart by dissention and I became more
>> and
>> > >> more
>> > >> >> involved in the anti-war movement and the increasingly emerging
>> > >> >philosophy
>> > >> >> of non-judgmentalism and defiance of the rule of law/politial
>> > >anarchism.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> While I was in school, I ran into a few old acquaintances. They
>were
>> > >the
>> > >> >> rich children of some of the people my dad had been doing business
>> > with
>> > >> in
>> > >> >> Mexico. They were going to universtity in the states and were,
>like
>> > me,
>> > >> >> angry, into the counterculture and we renewed our friendships.
I
>> > >started
>> > >> >> going down to Mexico with them on school holidays and we would
>> travel
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> places which were pretty unbelievable. Like paradises which were
>> mostly
>> > >> >> untouched by human beings (except of course, the local Indians,
>who
>> > >were
>> > >> >not
>> > >> >> really considered to be human by anyone, including these
>> *enlightened*
>> > >> >young
>> > >> >> Mexican revolutionaries-the Indians weren't cool. They were
>> > >> >traditionalists
>> > >> >> and not into drugs, socialism and free love). A lot of the friends
>> > of
>> > >> my
>> > >> >> Mexican friends were going to European universities and I met
>quite
>> > a
>> > >> few
>> > >> >of
>> > >> >> them and quite a few of their european friends who were my age
and
>> > >would
>> > >> >> travel with them on holiday. We became well acquainted and we
>shared
>> > a
>> > >> lot
>> > >> >> in common with our political philosophies which were becoming
>> > >increasing
>> > >> >> leftist-leaning. It is ironic that the children of priviledge
were
>> > the
>> > >> >ones
>> > >> >> who most despised the systems that allowed them those priviledges.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> In early 1970 I moved to Los Angeles because I wanted to get away
>> from
>> > >> >> Texas, go to school out there and be a part of the California
>scene.
>> > My
>> > >> >> uncle was a business partner with a big television star from
>Texas,
>> > had
>> > >> a
>> > >> >> big house and invited me to live with them while I established
>> myself.
>> > >> >> During the time I was there, I met quite a few of the folks in
the
>> > film
>> > >> >and
>> > >> >> music industry and their kids.
>> > >> >> Some of these kids are now known as part of the
>> > >> >> *Hollywood elite* and are very active and outspoken
>> > >> >> members of the leftist political scene in this country.
>> > >> >> I also started getting a sense of discomfort with the drug
>culture
>> > >that
>> > >> >was
>> > >> >> going on, but was still cool because it was so integrated with
the
>> > rest
>> > >> of
>> > >> >> the anarchistic counter culture. This is where my beliefs in
>> > >> >> non-judgementalism were beginning to be severely challenged. The
>> > >decadence
>> > >> >> was so unbelievable that it was obviously hurting people, but
it
>> wasn't
>> > >> >cool
>> > >> >> to talk about it. A bunch of the kids I was hanging out with knew
>> some
>> > >> >> people that called themselves *The Family*. I even went out to
the
>> > >ranch
>> > >> >> where some of were still living while Charles Manson, their
>leader,
>> > was
>> > >> in
>> > >> >> jail on a multiple murder charges and I partied with them. One
of
>my
>> > >> >cousins
>> > >> >> had dated one of them, a guy from McKinney Texas named Tex Watson
>> who
>> > >> had
>> > >> >> murdered people. There were some of the wierdest, scariest people
>> you
>> > >> can
>> > >> >> imagine but even despite stuff like this, no one in the Hollywood
>> > >> >> *counterculture* was willing to believe that some aspects of their
>> > >> >lifestyle
>> > >> >> might not be so great. Non-judgmentalism was sooooooo *uncool*.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I continued to participate as as activist in all of the *causes
du
>> > >jour*
>> > >> I
>> > >> >> supported gay rights and the *women's movement* (I loved the
>moving
>> > >women)
>> > >> >> and celebrated when birth control pills became available and
>> abortions
>> > >> >> became legal. I was active in the democratic party, watched as
the
>> > >various
>> > >> >> power brokers emerged in that party to *take care of* the Afro
>> American
>> > >> >> citizens
>> > >> >> and Mexican American farm workers. I had been gassed in anti-war
>> > >protests
>> > >> >> and had my feet firmly planted in the *hate America* movement.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Anyway, by 1973 I had graduated from my college studies with a
>major
>> > >> >degree
>> > >> >> in political science with minor studies in psychology and
>economics.
>> > >This
>> > >> >> liberal arts education didn't really qualify me for any kind of
>> career
>> > >> >path
>> > >> >> but I was young, invincible, resourceful and I figured if I knew
>my
>> > >way
>> > >> >> around these things, I could pretty much make my way in the world.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> The first thing I did was to take some time and go back down to
>> Mexico.
>> > >> I
>> > >> >> didn't want to be part of America anymore and I had seen a place
>> during
>> > >> my
>> > >> >> travels down there where I thought I might be happy. It was a
>> deserted
>> > >> >place
>> > >> >> with a *feeling* about it. I can't describe it, but others who
I
>> have
>> > >> met
>> > >> >> there who are more travelled than I am tell me they feel the same
>> kind
>> > >> of
>> > >> >> *energy* there that they have felt in places like Jerusalem,
>> Katmandhu,
>> > >> >> Mecca and other locations which are considered to be religious
>> > >> >destinations.
>> > >> >> In 1973, it was just a deserted beach with a little store owned
by
>> > a
>> > >> >Zapotec
>> > >> >> Indian named Ramon Aguilar Villalobos and this exended family,
two
>> > of
>> > >> >which
>> > >> >> were his in-laws, Manuel and Maria who basically founded this
>small
>> > >> >village
>> > >> >> back in the early 20th century and were very old. I spent a good
>> part
>> > >> of
>> > >> >my
>> > >> >> life in this place and lived with this family during those times
>> from
>> > >> 1973
>> > >> >> until 1990. Unfortunately, this place is nothing like it used
to
>be
>> > and
>> > >> >now
>> > >> >> even has websites dedicated to it, but I guess that's part of
the
>> story
>> > >> >> about thie place.
>> > >> >> I am going to post a link to this place so that you can see it.
>You
>> > may
>> > >> >have
>> > >> >> been there or know people who have. There is more to this story
>but
>> > I
>> > >> have
>> > >> >> work to do today so I will stop now and continue later when I
have
>> > the
>> > >> >time.
>> > >> >> This story actually does lead somewhere that is relevant to this
>> > >> >> conversation. Sorry it has been so long but you have asked me
a
>> > >question
>> > >> >> that is valid, but not easily answered, so I'll continue later
if
>> you
>> > >> are
>> > >> >> interested. Though I haven't been there for a while, this was
my
>> home
>> > >> and
>> > >> >is
>> > >> >> still my second home-
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I know a lot of the people in these pictures. I watched them grow
>up
>> > >and
>> > >> >> taught a few of them how to swim and catch fish. the beautiful
>young
>> > >> >woman,
>> > >> >> Claudia is the
>> > >> >> niece of my friend Ramon. The two people, John and Maria were
>guests
>> > at
>> > >> my
>> > >> >> home in Austin after one of my trips to Zipolite and we watched
>the
>> > >events
>> > >> >> unfold at Tienamen Square on television. They were having some
bad
>> > drug
>> > >> >> problems even then. They are both kind, intelligent victims of
the
>> > >social
>> > >> >> experiment that is
>> > >> >> happening there.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> http://www.greatvavavoom.com/stories/storyReader$56
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> This link is also descriptive of how this place has evolved and
>> what
>> > >> the
>> > >> >> place was like the last time I was there.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> http://community-2.webtv.net/ivanjay/IVANJSNAVELYHOMEPORT/
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> more to come......
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Regards,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Doug
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> news:42d45df1@linux...
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > maybe im missing the irony or some linguistic fineprint,
>> > >> >> > but as far as im concerned, doug, no i dont understand you.
>> > >> >> > reading the stereotype BS you spread, im frankly shocked,
>> > >> >> > thats pretty much all there is to it. i definetly dont recognize
>> > you.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > maybe its because im a european hypocrite sitting on my ass
or
>> > >> >something.
>> > >> >> > cause thats the way we are, we "euros", right?
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > *shakes head in disbelief*
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> > >Yes I do. Unfortunately, we apparently understand each other.
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >Regards,
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >DJ
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> > >> >news:42d45332$1@linux...
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> you know how i meant it.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> whatever.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> > >> >It makes me sad too Derek. If the governments of Europe
>would
>> > >learn
>> > >> >> from
>> > >> >> > >> the
>> > >> >> > >> >mistakes of the past, it would make me less sad.
>> > >> >> > >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message
>> > >> >> news:42d436c1$1@linux...
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> doug,
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> your fucked up picture of europe truly makes me sad.
>> > >> >> > >> >> youve come a long way, really.
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> regards,
>> > >> >> > >> >> derek
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/fuel-air-explo sion/
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >Maybe this??? Lots less radioactivity.........but
>> > >> >> > >seriously.............
>> > >> >> > >> >> >you're right that Muslims are going to need to get real
>> > >proactive
>> > >> >> > with
>> > >> >> > >> >their
>> > >> >> > >> >> >own. There's some pretty Hitlerian dialog going on in
>> Holland
>> > >> >these
>> > >> >> > >days
>> > >> >> > >> >> >about how to clean up the *Islamic problem*. It's funny
>> about
>> > >> how
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > >> >Euro's
>> > >> >> > >> >> >whine and bitch about how unfair and awful war is, then
>> when
>> > >> the
>> > >> >> chips
>> > >> >> > >> >are
>> > >> >> > >> >> >down.......bingo!!!!!! let's sit around on our collective
>> > >asses
>> > >> >and
>> > >> >> > >watch
>> > >> >> > >> >> >the Serbs dio a little ethnic housekeeping........oh
>> shit!!!!
>> > >> >> > >> >.......those
>> > >> >> > >> >> >meddling Americans came along and saved the Muslims and
>> > >spoiled
>> > >> >all
>> > >> >> > >our
>> > >> >> > >> >> >fun.............but hell, let's go visit our buddy Sadaam
>> > and
>> > >> >pick
>> > >> >> > up
>> > >> >> > >> a
>> > >> >> > >> >> few
>> > >> >> > >> >> >million barrells of oil while we're there. Those kids
who
>> > are
>> > >> >dying
>> > >> >> > of
>> > >> >> > >> >> >starvation and disease due to our turning a blind eye
to
>> his
>> > >> >> > >violations
>> > >> >> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> > >> >> >UN sanctions won't care. Hell, they're too busy swatting
>> the
>> > >> >flies
>> > >> >> > off
>> > >> >> > >> >their
>> > >> >> > >> >> >festering wounds and running to the crapper with
>> > >> >> disentery.........and
>> > >> >> > >> >just
>> > >> >> > >> >> >maybe while we're there we get lucky in a rape room.
>> Whaddaya
>> > >> say
>> > >> >> > >guys?
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >The hypocracy is just unbelievable.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:42cf19b3$1@linux...
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Your whole line of thought, if correct - especially
>your
>> > 3rd
>> > >> &
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> 4th paragraphs - would mean that Bush is one of the
>most
>> > >evil
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> sonsofbeeatches ever to walk the face of the earth.
I
>> find
>> > >> it
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> hard to believe that in ANY free society, that could
be
>> > the
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> case. Dictatorships, yeah, free societies, nah.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Ya know, as a side thought, for awhile there, I was
>> really
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> starting to feel like we made a mistake by going into
>> > >Iraq...
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> that we were hornswaggled, as they say - conned by
the
>> > >Iraqi's
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> who are NOW in power, and who had their own agenda
>> against
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Saddam. Now, with these latest bombings, I'm back to
>> being
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> all about retribution, since massive force is the only
>> thing
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> these extremists seem to understand - or if they don't
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> understand it, at least we'll lower their numbers &
>limit
>>
>> > >their
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> capabilities by that method. So I'm now thinking that
a
>> > good
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> position would be: for every terrorist attack that
>occurs
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> against us or one of our allies, we should nuke an
>> Islamic
>> > >> >city.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> One bomb - done. Next? Oh you want to bomb another
>> embassy?
>> > >> OK,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> fine, there goes another Islamic city... bigger bomb
>this
>> > >time.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Trust me, that kind of shit wouldn't last too long
>before
>> > we
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> had peace on earth & goodwill towards all men for a
>good
>> > >long
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> time.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> Neil
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> "Mike Audet" <mike@mike......com> wrote:
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Hi Mr. Simplicity,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Unfortunately, Iraq is very much about oil for the
>US -
>> > big
>> > >> US
>> > >> >> > oil
>> > >> >> > >> >> >companies.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> > And, leaving Iraqi oil in the ground, or burning
it
>in
>> > >bombed
>> > >> >> > >> >pipelines
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >is exactly what they want to do. This whole war was
>> about
>> > >> >> > >> >destabilizing
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the Middle East so that oil prices would rise and
make
>> > >> >billions
>> > >> >> > for
>> > >> >> > >> >> >George's
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >friends, screwing everyone else in the process.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Osama has publicly said that his mission is to
>bankrupt
>> > the
>> > >> US
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > >> >same
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> way
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >that he feels he bankrupted the USSR in Afghanistan
as
>> > >payback
>> > >> >> > for
>> > >> >> > >> >> >Israeli/US
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >aggression in Lebanon in the 1980s. I'm not defending
>> > him
>> > >> or
>> > >> >> his
>> > >> >> > >> >agenda
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >AT ALL, but we need to look at our enemies clearly
-
>and
>> > >our
>> > >> >> > >so-called
>> > >> >> > >> >> >friends
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >- if we're going to make good decisions.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Just like Osama, Bush and his friends want to bankrupt
>> > the
>> > >> US
>> > >> >> > >> >government
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in several ways, too: they want to give as much money
>> > as
>> > >> >> possible
>> > >> >> > >> to
>> > >> >> > >> >> >their
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >corporate friends through reconstruction projects
and
>> > >military
>> > >> >> > >> >contracts,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >they want to dismantle, as much as possible, what
>little
>> > >> >social
>> > >> >> > >> >> >safety-net
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the US has, and they want to bleed the American people
>> > >> >directly
>> > >> >> > >with
>> > >> >> > >> >> high
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >gas and oil prices.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >The best way to end social spending and bring the
US
>> back
>> > >> to
>> > >> >the
>> > >> >> > >early
>> > >> >> > >> >> >1900s
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >economically (which seems to be part of the
>conservative
>> > >> >> ideology)
>> > >> >> > >> is
>> > >> >> > >> >> to
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >saddle the government with so much debt that the
>public
>> > >simply
>> > >> >> > >can't
>> > >> >> > >> >> >afford
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >social programs anymore. He's intentionally trying
to
>> > >> >bankrupt
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > >> US
>> > >> >> > >> >> >government
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >to further entrench the power of his rich friends,
and
>> > he's
>> > >> >> doing
>> > >> >> > >> a
>> > >> >> > >> >great
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >job.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >There are two things that most so-called conservatives
>> > >don't
>> > >> >> seem
>> > >> >> > >> to
>> > >> >> > >> >> >consider.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> > One, if you don't redistribute a certain amount of
>> wealth
>> > >> >> through
>> > >> >> > >> >> >taxation,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >it gets so concentrated that the economy collapses
and
>> > >> >nobodies
>> > >> >> > >wealth
>> > >> >> > >> >> is
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >worth anything anymore. Second, cutting taxes shrinks
>> > the
>> > >> >> economy.
>> > >> >> > >> >> Why?
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> > Because individuals, especially rich ones, don't
>spend
>> > >100%
>> > >> >of
>> > >> >> > >every
>> > >> >> > >> >> >dollar
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >they earn - they save some of it. Governments
>generally
>> > >spend
>> > >> >> > >every
>> > >> >> > >> >> red
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >cent they bring in. So, when George cuts taxes for
>his
>> > >rich
>> > >> >> > >friends,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >the
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >US economy actually shrinks by the amount that people
>> save
>> > >> and
>> > >> >> > >> >government
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >would have spent, further contributing the bankrupting
>> > of
>> > >> >> America.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >As a Canadian, I'm extremely worried about the
>direction
>> > >that
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> > >> US
>> > >> >> > >> >> is
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> heading
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in. Bush and the terrorists seem to have the same
>> agenda.
>> > >> >> There's
>> > >> >> > >> no
>> > >> >> > >> >> >success
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >for Canada if the US falls apart. I can't even tell
>you
>> > >how
>> > >> >> > >> >heartbroken
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >and disappointed I was when George won the election.
>> I've
>> > >> >> always
>> > >> >> > >> >> >believed
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in and admired Americans - and I still do - but these
>> are
>> > >> very
>> > >> >> > >> >worrisome
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >times.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected
by
>> > this
>> > >> >> > >> >senselessness
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> > - American, British, Canadian, Iraqi, and everyone
>> else.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >All the best,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >Mike Audet
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Kim,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>I hear your arguments and I respect your opinion.
I
>do
>> > >not,
>> > >> >> > >however,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >agree
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>with your opinion. Waiting any longher would have
>done
>> > no
>> > >> >good
>> > >> >> > at
>> > >> >> > >> all
>> > >> >> > >> >> >(my
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>opinion of course) and despite the glee that those
>> opposed
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > >> war
>> > >> >> > >> >> >feel
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>due to there having been no WMD's found, the delay
>> could
>> > >> have
>> > >> >> > >easily
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>provided the time for disposing of them across the
>> border
>> > >> in
>> > >> >> Syria
>> > >> >> > >> or
>> > >> >> > >> >> in
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >the
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>desolation of the Iraqi hinterland. I don't think
>this
>> > >story
>> > >> >is
>> > >> >> > >over
>> > >> >> > >> >> >yet.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >I
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>do think that those who dislike Bush desperately
want
>> > it
>> > >> to
>> > >> >be
>> > >> >> > >over
>> > >> >> > >> >> so
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> they
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>can point fingers and trumpet their riteousness,
all
>> the
>> > >> >while
>> > >> >> > >> >bellowing
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>that the war was about WMD's and there weren't any
>> found,
>> > >> >> > >therefore,
>> > >> >> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>was unjustified. This is political spin at it's
>> absolute
>> > >> >lowest
>> > >> >> > >> >partisan
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>level. This war was about justifiably enforcing UN
>> > >> >resolutions
>> > >> >> > and
>> > >> >> > >> in
>> > >> >> > >> >> >doing
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>so, removing a bloodthirsty monster who was a proven
>> > >menace
>> > >> >to
>> > >> >> > >> >stability
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >in
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>the region. Would it have happened if 9-11 hadn't
>> > >happened?
>> > >> I
>> > >> >> > >don't
>> > >> >> > >> >> >know,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>but I think eventually Sadaam would have succeeded
in
>> > >> >shooting
>> > >> >> > >down
>> > >> >> > >> >> one
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >of
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>our aircraft that was enforcing the no-fly zone and
>we
>> > >would
>> > >> >> have
>> > >> >> > >> >done
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>something. Obviously the EU, Russia and the UN didn't
>> > give
>> > >> a
>> > >> >> damn
>> > >> >> > >> >about
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>anything but oil. It's blatantly obvious that keeping
>> > >Sadaam
>> > >> >in
>> > >> >> > >power
>> > >> >> > >> >> >was
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>all about oil. If this was about oil to us, I
>> guarantee
>> > >> we
>> > >> >> would
>> > >> >> > >> >have
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> half
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>a million men over there right now guarding the
>> pipelines
>> > >> and
>> > >> >> > >> >> >infrastructure
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>from border to border and we'd be sucking that teat
>dry
>> > as
>> > >> a
>> > >> >> bone
>> > >> >> > >> as
>> > >> >> > >> >> we
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>speak. As you have so astutely noticed, Americans
>> aren't
>> > >> >> subtle.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Regards,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>Deej
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > >> >> > >> >> >news:42cde2d0$1@linux...
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net>
>wrote:
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >and it's a shame that they are apparently the
only
>> > ones
>> > >> on
>> > >> >> > >earth
>> > >> >> > >> >> who
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >saw
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> any
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >merit in enforcing UN resolutions
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That annoys me too. I'm still anti-bush because
I
>> *hate*
>> > >> >the
>> > >> >> > way
>> > >> >> > >> >they
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >went
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> about it... pretending it was an anti-terror
>thing
>> > >(which
>> > >> >> > was
>> > >> >> > >> >> >clearly
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>garbage).
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> The issue I have too is that to me it seems that
>GWB
>> > and
>> > >> co
>> > >> >> > >wanted
>> > >> >> > >> >> >Saddam
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> out not really so much because he was a bad man,
>but
>> > >> >because
>> > >> >> > >they
>> > >> >> > >> >> >noticed
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Saddam was dealing with others, and figured
>"freeing"
>> > >Iraq
>> > >> >> would
>> > >> >> > >> >give
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >them
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> more oil power.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> It really frustrates me that as I look around those
>> > >events,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >politically,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> every country pretty much seemed to be in it for
>> their
>> > >> own
>> > >> >> > >agenda,
>> > >> >> > >> >> and
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >not
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for peace. Indeed the same could be said for much
>of
>> > the
>> > >> >> public.
>> > >> >> > >> It
>> > >> >> > >> >> >was
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>obviouly
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> sold as anti-terror because GWB & co didn't think
>> "free
>> > >> >Iraq
>> > >> >> > >from
>> > >> >> > >> >> >tyranny"
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> would sell because, simply put, a lot of the public
>> > >don't
>> > >> >> seem
>> > >> >> > >> to
>> > >> >> > >> >> care
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >if
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> others in some other country miles away suffer,
so
>> you
>> > >> have
>> > >> >> > to
>> > >> >> > >> tell
>> > >> >> > >> >> >them
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> that Iraq pose a threat. See, if GWB hadn't lied
>> about
>> > >> that
>> > >> >> > I
>> > >> >> > >> >*almost*
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>would
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> have been on his side... though I still couldn't
>> have
>> > >> >> stomached
>> > >> >> > >> >that
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >as
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> he was, to my mind, clearly in it for the oil.
I
>> think
>> > >> if
>> > >> >the
>> > >> >> > >U.S.
>> > >> >> > >> >> had
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>waited
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a little longer, and put a little more pressue
on
>the
>> > >U.N.
>> > >> >> that
>> > >> >> > >> >> >eventually
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> the U.N. would have gotten more behind it. I think
>> GWB
>> > >> & co
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >actually
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>*didn't
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> want* the U.N. behind them, because by going alone
>> they
>> > >> >could
>> > >> >> > be
>> > >> >> > >> in
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>charge,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> and that would give them more power politically
as
>> the
>> > >> >> country
>> > >> >> > >> was
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>restructured.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> That's my beleif anyhow. I felt that it was only
a
>> > >matter
>> > >> >of
>> > >> >> > >time
>> > >> >> > >> >> >before
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> enough countries voted for it in the U.N. They
>could
>> > >only
>> > >> >> > >> >> >procrastinate
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>for
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> so long. It was big news and the public was
>watching.
>> > A
>> > >> >whole
>> > >> >> > >swag
>> > >> >> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>countries
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> weren't saying "no" but were saying "wait just
a
>> little
>> > >> >> more".
>> > >> >> > >> Sure
>> > >> >> > >> >> it
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >was
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> getting tiresome, but I think holding out would
>have
>> > >been
>> > >> >> worth
>> > >> >> > >> it.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >The
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>way
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> it was handled it came across too much as if GWB
>was
>> > >just
>> > >> >> hell
>> > >> >> > >> bent
>> > >> >> > >> >> on
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >war
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> for oil, which I think is true. Holding out a
>little
>> > >longer
>> > >> >> > >would
>> > >> >> > >> >> have
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>made
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> a big difference to the opinions of many IMO,
>whether
>> > >the
>> > >> >> U.N.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >actually
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>ended
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> up behind it or not.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Anyway, the whole thing is screwed.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> This London thing is screwed.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And I forgot my lunch this morning. DOH!
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> And now we've got a political thread on the main
>> group.
>> > >> DOH
>> > >> >> > >DOH!!
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Cheers,
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> Kim.
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > >> >
>> > >> >> > >> >
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>Grow up... it wasn't a joke. If we fight these groups in a
>piecemeal fashion, then it'll go on forever. Same as if we had
>invaded Japan to try & end the war vs. what we ended up doing.
>
>Oh, and BTW, I HAVE lived in Europe... and while I don't agree
>very much with Deej's opinions on that topic, I've noticed that
>you Euros have indeed gotten more & more cocky towards America
>each year that you haven't had 10,000 Soviet tanks
> **parked** **right** **here...
thanks for the insightful input on the israel topic and the
thoughts on force vs deescalation politics.
no, wait...
btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would")
even more interesting because each side also believes it was
them who solved the cold war conflict (since
you brought it up).
was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics
of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s?
was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the
only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed?
it could be an interesting discussion. at least more interesting
than theorizing about whether "the euros got more cocky" or something. but
to each his own.
but in case im wrong and your would find it interesting too,
heres again the first statement i made about israel and
force vs deescalation, inspired by your "nuke islam cities"
suggestions.
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>No, I'm not, but it made a lot of people think dinnit? Truly,
>if we did that, I think it would only take about three cities'
>worth before the Islams said "ENOUGH!"... give us a break!
israel has been trying this method for quite a while,
just on a smaller scale. did it reduce terror over there? you tell me.
OTOH, there was this *one* time when they tried the deescalation
method for a change. did it reduce terror? you bet it did.
too bad that some extremist religious fanatic asshole
shot the man that was brave enough to try this. theyve been
back to business as usual ever since (and its not working
like always)Go to http://tinyurl.com/73scq
He's in pretty rough shape, and going through chemo.
Heartbreaking. One of the good guys, and one of the true geniuses in
the industry.
pab
"Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon
"Here at Microsoft, Quality is job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?""Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6d181$1@linux...
>
> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>>just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>>(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>>for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
>>ha ha) -
>
> Grow up... it wasn't a joke. If we fight these groups in a
> piecemeal fashion, then it'll go on forever. Same as if we had
> invaded Japan to try & end the war vs. what we ended up doing.
Well China agrees with you:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would")
>even more interesting because each side also believes it was
>them who solved the cold war conflict (since
>you brought it up).
>
>was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics
>of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s?
>was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the
>only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed?
Personally I think it was a combination of all those things.
My point about the Soviet tanks was that - regardless of how the
end of the Cold War came about - it was American forces sitting
a few yards away from the East German tower in that picture which
prevented said tanks from rolling through there on any given
Sunday afternoon. Ever since you guys don't need us anymore,
it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans".
I think even you would admit that the place in that photo looks
a helluva lot better now than it did then, doesn't it?
You're welcome.
I'll talk with you about Israel some other time.
Neil"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>btw, that discussion is (or, since everybody avoids it, "would")
>even more interesting because each side also believes it was
>them who solved the cold war conflict (since
>you brought it up).
>
>was it ronald reagan? was it gorbatchov? or was it maybe the politics
>of ongoing dialogue from willy brandt in the 70s?
>was it a little of everything? or was it all obsolete and the
>only reason the cold war ended was because the communism as a whole failed?
Personally I think it was a combination of all those things.
My point about the Soviet tanks was that - regardless of how the
end of the Cold War came about - it was American forces sitting
a few yards away from the East German tower in that picture which
prevented said tanks from rolling through there on any given
Sunday afternoon. Ever since you guys don't need us anymore,
it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans".
I think even you would admit that the place in that photo looks
a helluva lot better now than it did then, doesn't it?
You're welcome.
I'll talk with you about Israel some other time.
Neilwow thats an amazing website too
"Paul Braun" <cygnus_diespamdie@ctgonline.org> wrote in message
news:42d6dc8e.30226974@218.214.23.222...
> Go to http://tinyurl.com/73scq
>
> He's in pretty rough shape, and going through chemo.
>
> Heartbreaking. One of the good guys, and one of the true geniuses in
> the industry.
>
> pab
>
> "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon
>
> "Here at Microsoft, Quality is job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?""justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>Well China agrees with you:
> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html
Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going
to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie &
NOT want to use it?
I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we
mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a
script from "South Park":
***begin paste***
Butters: Enough! Uh I grow weary of your foolishness. Professor Chaos cannot
be stopped!
Stan: Oh yeah?! Kenny! Use your ninja star!
Kenny: (Yeah! Take this, Professor Chaos!) [shows off an eight-pointed shuriken]
(Feel my wrath!) [unleashes the shuriken, and it strikes Butters in the eye.
Butters' helmet flies off, revealing his mohawk and the shuriken embedded
in the bloody left eye. The music abruptly stops and the boys are shown in
regular form. Butters looks at the boys and bawls]
Cartman: Oh, fuck dude!
Stan: [he and Kyle rush over to Butters] It's Butters. Oh my God! [the boys
gather round Butters] Oh, dude! It's stuck in his eye!
Kyle: What the hell did you do that for, Kenny?!
Kenny: (I just threw it like Stan asked me.)
Butters: It hurts! It hurts! [continues bawling]
Kyle: Oh man! We are in serious trouble!
Stan: [tries to soothe Butters] Ssh sshhhh. It's okay, Butters. Calm down.
It's not that bad, really.
Butters: [trying to catch his breath] But I... But I... But I can't see nothin'.
I gotta go to the hospitalll!! [Stan looks around nervously, with gritted
teeth]
Stan: Okay okay, calm down, Butters! It'll be okay! [Butters composes himself
and sobs softly, looking around from time to time for any sign of help]
Cartman: Guys, meeting over here for a second? [the boys move off and huddle]
All right you guys, we need to stay calm and just do the right thing. We
have to kill Butters and bury him in Kyle's backyard.
Stan: Dude, shut up!
Kyle: I agree with Cartman!
Stan: What??
Kyle: You don't understand what my mom will do to me if she finds out I was
playing with weapons!
[a closeup of the shuriken lodged in Butters' left eye, moments later. Some
pliers clamp on to it and the camera pulls back. Stan is holding the pliers
and he tugs gently at the shuriken. Butters sits on a tree stump]
Stan: Just stay still, Butters.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55732 is a reply to message #55729] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 14:44 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
Butters: [Stan tugs again] Hwa. [Stan tugs harder] Hwa! [Stan tugs even harder]
Hwaaaaa!
Kyle: Stop dude! You're gonna scramble his brain!
Cartman: Go ahead and scramble it, then he won't remember it was us.
Butters: You guys can't fix my eyeball! You have to take me to the hospital!
[whimpers]
Kyle: If we take him to the hospital, they're gonna find out what happened.
Stan: God-damnit!
Kyle: [moves off] God? Please, if you get me out of this, I swear, I will
never play with weapons ever again.
Cartman: [approaches] Don't be so quick to throw off your ninja responsibility,
Kyle. [to the huddle] Now, come on guys, sure, it's easy to be a ninja when
everything's going your way, but it's times like these, when the chips are
down, that a ninja shows his true character.
Butters: Whoa, I'm getting woozy.
Cartman: Shut up, Butters. [to the other boys] Now, there's a way out of
this. We just have to use our... ninja reasoning. [puts his fingertipss to
his temples. Kenny touches his right temple, Stan his chin]
Stan: We... need a doctor... But we can't go to the hospital. Wait a minute.
Wait, wait, wait what about the veterinarian?
Cartman: Dr. Shafley?
Stan: He's really old and and goin blind.
Cartman: So if we make Butters up to look like a dog,...
**end paste**
:D"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux...
>
> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>
>>Well China agrees with you:
>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html
>
>
> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going
> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie &
> NOT want to use it?
>
> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we
> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a
> script from "South Park":
Im not about to read that crap... enjoy.We've eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and now we're using the Knowledge to
create Nuclear Weapons and inject human stem cells int
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55735 is a reply to message #55732] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 14:53 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ime, but
they do not, despite the fact that palestianians in Israel have more
rights, more income, more personal dignity than they do in any
other country in the middle east. It is hate, pure and simple.
If that hate and brutality was equal on the Israeli and US side,
you would have seen Damascus, Tehran, and Baghad turned into
radioactive holes in the ground by now, and a clear threat of more
should any more terrorist acts be committed. As Neil says, this
is not a joke, and remains an option should we be placed under
serious, sustained attack. I pray to God that it does not come to
that, but we will not live under a Mullah. Will you?
How in hell do you de-escalate when dealing with 10th century
lunatics who will kill children to get on the news? Well you don't,
and even the best and brightest have failed at it.
You don't negotiate. You kill them. then you kill those other ones,
and them, and those guys too, and you do it, as carefully as
possible, until the survivors want peace.
If you say this doesn't work, you are not being honest. If you try to
negotiate with terrorists you are a fool. If you try to understand
their acts, you tilt on the edge of moral bankrupty.
Peace starts with the desire for peace on
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55736 is a reply to message #55732] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 14:54 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
both sides.
DC"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>Personally I think it was a combination of all those things.
interesting. too bad you dont follow up on this.
> Ever since you guys don't need us anymore,
>it's been pretty much: "Fuck the Americans".
a convenient fantasy, but of course completely wrong. germany has followed
US politics almost
100% until the second iraq war. as we speak, germany is among
the biggest supporters of your forces in afghanistan. first
iraq war, serbien, bosnien, albanien (dont know the
english term for these nations), you name it, germany was there, usually
sending lots of its ridiculous, mostly
defensive military forces, but also
being the biggest payer of all supporters to make up for that.
this support, as well as public opinion on the US as a whole,
has been more or less constant all these years. the
shift (both in politics as well as in public opinion) is
directly connected to the second iraq war.
you can search and find a lot of polls about that on
www.spiegel.de (unfortunately in german, but i guess you could
also google for english versions of such polls in the unlikely ca
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55738 is a reply to message #55734] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 15:25 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
eaction to
911 wasnt debated at all - that was pretty exceptional, cause
normally thats the way it goes in pacifistic cuddle-germany (TM).
to ignore a logical connection with the second iraq war
but draw a connection 16 years into the past is pretty
artificial. of course neither i nor all numbers
and public opinion polls in the world will change your opinion
about this. but since you guys dig non-non-judgmentalism so much,
i will make it a point to publicly call it "more bullshit" here for you.
in my humble i-happen-to-live-in-the-place-you-talk-about-opinion of course.
>You're welcome.
see, thats the interesting discussion about "who or what
political concept ended the cold war" i talked about.
could have been nice. of course, by saying "youre welcome",
youre taking the credit, thus i assume your opinion on this
is that it was YOU, neil aka the united states of america,
that ended the cold war.
you said something different in the beginning of your post,
but whatever.
>I'll talk with you about Israel some other time.
funny how i saw that one coming...
have a nice day.No.........that's not what I said and you're obviously not getting this at
all. Let's return to the original disagreement about stereotypes. Like it or
not, they exist. they are the detrius of our respective cultural heritage.
Whether this is considered to be good or bad is not even an issue. It just
is reality. I'kll guarantee you that the French have cultural differences
and that b\ased on those differences, certain assumptions can be made. Are
you denying this?
I think they are pretty damned handy as I would certainly like to know a bit
about the cultural background of person if he or she is Jewish or Muslim and
I'm planning a dinner party with suckling pig as the main course.
As for your apparent unwillingness to accept what I have seen with my own
eyes after it was pointed out to me by a bunch of people who had absolutely
no preconceptions about the cultural proclivities of these individuals who
happened to be Euopeans and Americans all I can say is believe what you
want.
"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6d324@linux...
>
> or, in short: "i know europe - cause i know some europeans
> that live here in the US".
>
> that pretty much stands nicely by itself.
>
>
>
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> >Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
> >these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe*"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>Personally I think it was a combination of all those things.
>
>
>interesting. too bad you dont follow up on this.
I will, don't have time to get into long posts right now - just
little snippets here & there as I do other stuff - but I agree
with you that it was not just one of those factors, but all of
them combined to one degree or another.
>see, thats the interesting discussion about "who or what
>political concept ended the cold war" i talked about.
>could have been nice. of course, by saying "youre welcome",
>youre taking the credit, thus i assume your opinion on this
>is that it was YOU, neil aka the united states of america,
>that ended the cold war.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55741 is a reply to message #55724] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 15:49 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>
>>>Well China agrees with you:
>>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html
>>
>>
>> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going
>> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie &
>> NOT want to use it?
>>
>> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we
>> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a
>> script from "South Park":
>
>Im not about to read that crap... enjoy.
Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic-
diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an
elitist comment, don't you think?"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6f064$1@linux...
>
> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:42d6e653$1@linux...
>>>
>>> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Well China agrees with you:
>>>> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c 8.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, of COURSE! What do you expect? You think someone's going
>>> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie &
>>> NOT want to use it?
>>>
>>> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we
>>> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a
>>> script from "South Park":
>>
>>Im not about to read that crap... enjoy.
>
> Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic-
> diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an
> elitist comment, don't you think?
Wow, nice string of names dude.... thats how you conduct discourse?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55742 is a reply to message #55736] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 15:54 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
/>
Asshole.your statement completely ignores my very point, the
early nineties, mr. rabin, the one point in history
where they were as close to solving the conflict as they were
never before and after. arafat actually had power because he could
show his people results, so he could actually effectively
prevent terror, and hear hear, terror was on a all time low.
but thats not worth mentioning with even one single word huh?
your basically ignoring my very point. q.e.d.
oh, and about the option to just nuke the palestinans to hell,
well im sure the jewish seddlers would have been very amused,
and of course isreal wouldnt mind poisoning their own country
by dropping a couple of nukes in the direct neighbourhood
of their sacred city and land.
thats about as realistic as milwaukee reserving the right to
nuke chicago in case of ongoing disagreement. very good.
im sure chicago is very thankful that they didnt do
it to this day.
oh, and about the "will you live under a mullah", well, of course
not. youre missing the point. we all have the same goals.
we only disagree about what is the best path to these goals.
its a shame that there seems to be NO way at all to
have a basic discussion about the possible
different paths to this goal and it all automatically
leads to the auto-anti-liberal-blah routine. here i am,
writing about how i do NOT think that george bush is
the devil, how i do believe we all have the same goals,
how i am only interested in a general force vs deescalation
discussion again and again, starting with the example of mr. rabin,
the only man known to me that ever managed to *reduce
terror* in israel by a significant amount. i find that
really interesting. and until now, not ONE SINGLE WORD
about that in all responses. NOT ONE.
instead i get some "you hate americans so much" type
of antiliberal standard blah blah. its ridiculous, really.
but then, i can take that as an answer just as well.
"DC" <dcicchetti@urs2.net> wrote:
>
>"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>just note how many people have responded to my reply to neil
>>(who was so proud of his very original "nuke a moslem city
>>for every terror attack and itll teach them" joke, ha ha oh its so funny
>>ha ha) - israel is a prime example where you can compare the
>>different concepts of brute force versus deescalation.
>>brute force had about 40 years to prove itself as a
>>conflict ending concept.
>
>
>Derek, I have to call you on this statement. You call nuking cities
>and Israel both examples of brute force. This is irrational, and I
>am surprised that you said it.
>
>Given what they could do, Israel has shown amazing restraint in
>dealing with terrorism. They could have turned the palestinians
>into green glass by now, and instead have given them 95% of
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55743 is a reply to message #55730] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 15:40 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
everything that they asked for in the negotiations under Clinton.
>
>The reason Clinton failed at making peace was not brutality, nor
>warlikeness, it was the palestianian and arab's clear intent to wipe
>out israel and kill every single israeli.
>
>If the palestinians want peace, they could have it at any time, but
>they do not, despite the fact that palestianians in Israel have more
>rights, more income, more personal dignity than they do in any
>other country in the middle east. It is hate, pure and simple.
>
>If that hate and brutality was equal on the Israeli and US side,
>you would have seen Damascus, Tehran, and Baghad turned into
>radioactive holes in the ground by now, and a clear threat of more
>should any more terrorist acts be committed. As Neil says, this
>is not a joke, and remains an option should we be placed under
>serious, sustained attack. I pray to God that it does not come to
>that, but we will not live under a Mullah. Will you?
>
>How in hell do you de-escalate when dealing with 10th century
>lunatics who will kill children to get on the news? Well you don't,
>and even the best and brightest have failed at it.
>
>You don't negotiate. You kill them. then you kill those other ones,
>and them, and those guys too, and you do it, as carefully as
>possible, until the survivors want peace.
>
>If you say this doesn't work, you are not being honest. If you try to
>negotiate with terrorists you are a fool. If you try to understand
>their acts, you tilt on the edge of moral bankrupty.
>
>Peace starts with the desire for peace on both sides.
>
>DC
>This
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55747 is a reply to message #55741] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 16:16 |
derek
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2005
|
Member |
|
|
! What do you expect? You think someone's going
>>>> to build some really cool blow-up-the-world sort of thingie &
>>>> NOT want to use it?
>>>>
>>>> I think the thing that can best illustrate what happens when we
>>>> mess around with weapons we can't control is this portion of a
>>>> script from "South Park":
>>>
>>>Im not about to read that crap... enjoy.
>>
>> Crap? For a downtrodden-defending, blunt-smoking, ethnic-
>> diversity-supporting liberal like yourself, that's kind of an
>> elitist comment, don't you think?
>
>Wow, nice string of names dude.... thats how you conduct discourse?
>
>Asshole.
Errmmmm... those weren't cut-downs.
Bostonian.
(though THAT might be considered one LOL)(sigh)............and furthermore, whether you want it to be about
Iraq........everything is about Iraq.........and was for a long time before
we took Sadaam out if the premise of the United Nations being a viable
entity has any validity at all. I appreciate that Germany supported the US
during the time that Bill Clinton was sitting on his ass allowing us to be
dealt under the table by the French, Russians and the UN bureaucrats.
Germany did support France when it insisted it would block US efforts to use
force to disarm Iraq. The whole ridiculous premise of this was that somehow
the inspectors would be effective when for 10 years Iraq had been
obstructing them. Villepin actually said, and I quote......."It is important
that Europe speaks on this issue with a single voice." "We are mobilized;
we believe war can be avoided." .......while France was buying Iraqi oil
under the table. Gerhard Shroeder found the antiwar line to be a convenient
reelection tool which tells me a lot. His words of support for America were
"Do not expect that Germany will agree to a resolution that legitimizes war"
while conveniently forgetting that the war, which Germany legitimized by
virtue of it's participation in 1991 had not ended as long as Sadaam was in
violation of the UN sanctions.
Regards,
Doug
"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
news:42d6ed96@linux...
> No.........that's not what I said and you're obviously not getting this at
> all. Let's return to the original disagreement about stereotypes. Like it
or
> not, they exist. they are the detrius of our respective cultural heritage.
> Whether this is considered to be good or bad is not even an issue. It just
> is reality. I'kll guarantee you that the French have cultural differences
> and that b\ased on those differences, certain assumptions can be made. Are
> you denying this?
>
> I think they are pretty damned handy as I would certainly like to know a
bit
> about the cultural background of person if he or she is Jewish or Muslim
and
> I'm planning a dinner party with suckling pig as the main course.
>
> As for your apparent unwillingness to accept what I have seen with my own
> eyes after it was pointed out to me by a bunch of people who had
absolutely
> no preconceptions about the cultural proclivities of these individuals who
> happened to be Euopeans and Americans all I can say is believe what you
> want.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6d324@linux...
> >
> > or, in short: "i know europe - cause i know some europeans
> > that live here in the US".
> >
> > that pretty much stands nicely by itself.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
> > >Well........you may assume that my impressions of Europe are wrong, but
> > >these impressions were of Europeans who were *from Europe*
>
>nah, i didnt ignore it.
just as you i said that i believe that its a little of everything. of course
that includes, on behalf of all american
forces, you. thank you neil. your partially responsible for
the end of the cold war. since i, on behalf of the deescalation
politics of willy brandt, am also responsible and
the US also wanted the cold war to end, will you thank
me too now?
as to the rest, whats there to say when you completely
ignore all
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55751 is a reply to message #55746] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 16:38 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
a significant amount. i find that
>really interesting. and until now, not ONE SINGLE WORD
>about that in all responses. NOT ONE.
The people who think bush is the devil are stupid, so it buys you
little credit to not be one of them.
Ok, so what were the substantive differences between what Rabin
was offering, and what Clinton brokered? Were they not nearly
identical? Doesn't your point rely on Arafat not being a terrorist
himself? Evidence?
>instead i get some "you hate americans so much" type
>of antiliberal standard blah blah. its ridiculous, really.
Never said that. I always approach europeans with an open mind,
hoping to find a new perspective. I had many german friends in
college and took german for a year. I am inclined to listen and
like europeans as long as they are willing to understand our side.
You will have your own opportunity to show your more
enlightened solutions, I am sure. This is likely to get worse before
it gets better.
Here is why appeasement is more likely to end in nuclear war than is
the war on terror. Euros in particular, because war has become
unthinkable to them, are more likely to wait too long to respond,
and then find themselves in such desperate conditions, tactically,
that there are no other options but massive destruction. Fight
them there, or fight them here. You pick, but it can happen to you
too.
So tell me, what part of Rabin's plans would you use today to
de-escalate?
DC"derek" <derekvonkrogh@gmx.net> wrote in message news:42d6f7ed$1@linux...
> "Neil" <>Derek: "Hello, you've reached Derek the Psychic - I know what
>>you're thinking before you even think it, how may I help you?"
>>Caller: "If you know what I'm thinking, why do you need to ask
>>how you may help me?"
>
>
> hahaha. i didnt ge
|
|
|
|
| Re: Bomb attacks in London England [message #55752 is a reply to message #55743] |
Thu, 14 July 2005 16:24 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
t it, but im sure it was funny. funny is good. thanks.
yah... Neil is a regular comedian...This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
---=_linux42d6f95c
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Send me your email address, and I'll get back with you.
DC
So you like the 'Ooo huh?
Here's a rig for you!
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>In a whole new world, brotha.... I think I am waiting on the wrong side
of
>Styx some days.. drop me an e, we'll catch up. Anyway, funny you should
>mention the who and be talking about guitars. We strike the same chord on
>that one (hey, I'm a pun-nee guy), I've been getting back into playing live
>guitar again here recently and one of our new additions will be Who Are
You.
>That pick guard is pretty inspiring, I may have to get something custom
and
>cool like that. Unfortunately it won't work on my main axe, it's a modified
>RG570 - no guard. However, something like that in a thinner plastic would
>look totally slammin on my live drum kit........hmmmm...........
>
>AA
---=_linux42d6f95c
Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="SG & HW.JPG"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SG & HW.JPG"
/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/4Rb2RXhpZgAASUkqAAgAAAALAA4BAgAg
AAAAkgAAAA8BAgAFAAAAsgAAABABAgAKAAAAtwAAABIBAwABAAAAAQAAABoB
BQABAAAAwQAAABsBBQABAAAAyQAAACgBAwABAAAAAgAAADEBAgAdAAAA0QAA
ADIBAgAUAAAA7gAAABMCAwABAAAAAgAAAGmHBAABAAAABAEAAGACAAAgICAg
ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgAFNPTlkAQ1lCRVJTSE9UAEgA
AAABAAAASAAAAAEAAABBZG9iZSBQaG90b3Nob3AgRWxlbWVudHMgMi4wADIw
MDU6MDc6MTQgMTY6MjM6MDMAAAAVAJqCBQABAAAABgIAAJ2CBQABAAAADgIA
ACKIAwABAAAAAgAAACeIAwABAAAAQAEAAACQBwAEAAAAMDIxMAOQAgAUAAAA
FgIAAASQAgAUAAAAKgIAAAGRBwAEAAAAAQIDAAKRBQABAAAAPgIAAASSCgAB
AAAARgIAAAWSBQABAAAATgIAAAeSAwABAAAAAwAAAAiSAwABAAAAAAAAAAmS
AwABAAAAAAAAAAqSBQABAAAAVgIAAACgBwAEAAAAMDEwMAGgAwABAAAAAQAA
AAKgBAABAAAAQgEAAAOgBAABAAAAEgIAAACjBwABAAAAAwAAAAGjBwABAAAA
AQAAAAAAAAAKAAAALAEAABUAAAAKAAAAMjAwNTowNzoxNCAxNjoxOTozMQAy
MDA1OjA3OjE0IDE2OjE5OjMxAAIAAAABAAAAAAAAAAoAAAAUAAAACgAAAF0A
AAAKAAAAAAAGAAMBAwABAAAABgAAABoBBQABAAAArgIAABsBBQABAAAAtgIA
ACgBAwABAAAAAgAAAAECBAABAAAAvgIAAAICBAABAAAAMBQAAAAAAABIAAAA
AQAAAEgAAAABAAAA/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/7QAMQWRvYmVfQ00A
Af/uAA5BZG9iZQBkgAAAAAH/2wCEAAwICAgJCAwJCQwRCwoLERUPDAwPFRgT
ExUTExgRDAwMDAwMEQwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwBDQsL
DQ4NEA4OEBQODg4UFA4ODg4UEQwMDAwMEREMDAwMDAwRDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwM
DAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDP/AABEIAIAATgMBIgACEQEDEQH/3QAEAAX/xAE/
AAABBQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAADAAECBAUGBwgJCgsBAAEFAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAA
AAEAAgMEBQYHCAkKCxAAAQQBAwIEAgUHBggFAwwzAQACEQMEIRIxBUFRYRMi
cYEyBhSRobFCIyQVUsFiMzRygtFDByWSU/Dh8WNzNRaisoMmRJNUZEXCo3Q2
F9JV4mXys4TD03Xj80YnlKSFtJXE1OT0pbXF1eX1VmZ2hpamtsbW5vY3R1dn
d4eXp7fH1+f3EQACAgECBAQDBAUGBwcGBTUBAAIRAyExEgRBUWFxIhMFMoGR
FKGxQiPBUtHwMyRi4XKCkkNTFWNzNPElBhaisoMHJjXC0kSTVKMXZEVVNnRl
4vKzhMPTdePzRpSkhbSVxNTk9KW1xdXl9VZmdoaWprbG1ub2JzdHV2d3h5en
t8f/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AMK/6nfWLBtwx1PGGOzqGSzBqLshrm+rfJqNrKxl
Peyv0tz67bLqlTvxei5YaRnZTqAScYW1AvbUf5qq57WXes6qn02f6P8A0dbF
6h9dmlw6AQI2dcwCZ0721/6+1eVY9DhRWz1ceWsAMZFPYbf9InjVaWxXhdLr
MN6laPD9Ucfh/wBp1Zr6Xi5bJqzcu9gO1xrwbC0QN+320uY12z9J/UVMUv8A
9LRAPHr0/wDpRWaG1NFZtdQ59N7rmsL8a1jg9lNT67Wvyafb+r/pa/0leRV7
Hpw8zS0lTOhdHF7Lftd5cxwe1rscvaHMg/zF9LqXs936RlrX70w+rvRbMj1R
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Nov 30 06:53:54 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.04583 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
