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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104831 is a reply to message #104830] |
Mon, 22 February 2010 08:31   |
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Hmmm... hadn't occurred to me to try. Never used them in my Mac days, they just weren't an option with the processor power I had available on a beige G3.
But with more modern computers and their radically increased processor speeds, native submixes might be worth a closer look for possibilities... let us know if you experiment, this will be interesting.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104895 is a reply to message #104830] |
Sat, 27 February 2010 08:44 |
drfrankencopter
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Senior Member |
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OK, I have some news to report on native submixes.
I set up senderella to return sends 1 & 2 to channels 1 & 2 of a native submix. These senderlla returns were nested in a FFX4 chainer, and then in the plugin slot below them I inserted a stereo VST reverb and checked the stereo box. I had to drop a couple of tracks of silence into the editor window in order to fool the plug-in to work with no audio present on the track. But, I'm happy to report it worked!
Now here's some of my observations:
1) The C16 can control most functions on the native submix. Faders, pan, EQ, mute all work.
2) Solo on the native submix does not work....either from the C16 or the mouse. It's been de-activated somehow. I guess because the solo buss goes to the monitor sends only, and needs a direct connection to the EDS to make that happen. Not sure. At any rate, Faderworks might be the way to address this issue.
3) Using the senderlla send controls to determine panning and level of FX sends is not an intuitive process. For some reason senderella works in % rather than dB, which makes it even harder. I also ran into some streaming errors when the I had two senderella sends set to zero % (I think it was okay if I left it there, but had streaming errors if I adjusted it to zero while audio was playing...I'll need to double check).
I think this could be a nice way to establish some FX return templates. If only senderella could be re-written to better address stereo instances (e.g. with level and pan). Is it open source by any chance????
Cheers
Kris
PS: I'm also happy to say that my new PC was stable and happy running a 30 track project with a few plug-ins, and the VST reverb on the native sbmix. All with a CPU loading of 1-3%. Oh, and I haven't even set my paris configurations yet (buffers etc).
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104897 is a reply to message #104895] |
Sat, 27 February 2010 09:49 |
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Great work! OK, I'll start doing some testing with Senderella myself - you might want to do a forum search for Dimitrios' posts on it, he's done some really brilliant work too.
A cursory web search didn't turn up any info on it going open source; I found that the dev is subminimal software, aka ModuLR, but subminimal.org now appears to be defunct. Interesting avenue to pursue.
My basic philosophy on PARIS community development is that since Mike Audet's effectively the only person on the planet to whom we have access that knows PARIS-specific code, I like to explore other options for non-PARIS-specific coding. For example the OMF stuff, the PARIS-specific tweaks in FaderWorks, the PAF work and the libsndfile wrapper were all brought to us from outside the PARIS community (or more correctly had their roots in our overlapping membership in other communities such as Reaper). Essential driver development was able to continue while those things happened because of that diversity.
Some projects that could potentially be of great interest to us as PARIS users are (or have now become) "open source" - if community members with coding skills were interested in tweaking or modifying existing code to make it more PARIS-friendly, we'd see amazing advances fast. We already have a ton of cool options - as far as I'm concerned we also need a lot of them to be more rock-solid with PARIS - the words "it's a little flaky, but..." make my grind my teeth. I want solid, and solid is reachable when we have access to source code.
It might be time for me to post a list of the more relevant open-source projects that could be of great use to us given a tweak or two for compatibility in case anyone wants to roll up their sleeves.
By the way - as far as "not news to anyone but yourself" - a lot of really cool discoveries have been made over the years, but sometimes they've been forgotten by the mainstream, including myself. Maybe people thought some of them sounded cool but never really tried them out because they didn't really grasp how they worked, or what benefits they could bring. Maybe they just thought "wow, cool - but sounds really complicated". My primary motivations for starting the Wiki were the ideas that folks bought those insights the hard way and once we learn something about PARIS it should never be forgotten - and every attempt should be made to make those insights as easy to use as possible: complexities broken down and explained, workflows "walked through" etc.
I don't know if that's the teacher in me coming out (although with PARIS I'm "student", not "teacher"), or (more likely) merely that I know I'll be one of the prime beneficiaries of getting this laid out in "for dummies" format - I know how crappy my memory's getting. 
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
[Updated on: Sat, 27 February 2010 10:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104910 is a reply to message #104909] |
Sun, 28 February 2010 19:30 |
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Nice find! I just forwarded the code, the link and a link to this thread to Mike.
Hmm - I have my (uneducated) doubts that what you're suggesting would be possible. It would be pretty exciting if it were - that would be the key to a lot more Aux automation, including using dummy channels to control stuff. But I understand it's very difficult to connect the EDS subsystems with the VST subsystems.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
[Updated on: Sun, 28 February 2010 19:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104917 is a reply to message #104915] |
Mon, 01 March 2010 09:10 |
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A tailor-made "Senderella In PARIS" version would be an insanely cool add-on, and #4 is a very smart addition. Should we contact the dev to make sure he's fine with us branching his code? He'd probably be fine with it, particularly if some of those innovations could be added to his own version.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104926 is a reply to message #104925] |
Mon, 01 March 2010 13:40 |
drfrankencopter
Messages: 137
Registered: July 2009
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Senior Member |
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Well, I'm not really sure what exactly Faderworks does. I haven't installed the demo to try it out yet. But my understanding is that it can control groups of tracks in a relative fashion, and can add delays to do latency compensation.
Senderella is entirely different. I think I'll write up a wiki entry on it. Effectively senderella is a native aux buss. You can instantiate the plug-in as send or as a return. All the sends will get summed together at the return.
The way I experimented with it was to set up the returns first:
1) I wanted a stereo return so I went to a native submix, and on channel 1's 1st native plugin slot instantiated Senderella set to be a return for Senderella's channel 1 (You can have up 64 'channels' in senderella, think of them as mono aux sends). On channel 2 of the native submix I set another Senderella as a return for Senderella's channel 2. This basically sets up a stereo return for Senderella's sends.
2) Next, on channel 1 in the 2nd native plug-in spot I selected a stereo native plug-in (Waves IR reverb), and checked the stereo box.
3) On an EDS submix on a snare drum channel, I instantiated 2 senderella plug-ins in series (the reason for this is I want to send the snare in mono to the reverb, so I need to send equal level to senderella channe l1, and channel 2). This is the interface issue I'd like to address.
4) Panning can be controlled by the balance of channel 1 vs channel 2 send levels on Senderella, and voila there is a native reverb working on an Aux.
Latency implications. I don't think there is any added latency from Senderella...so you can use it for doing parallel compression. BUT, and this is a big one, you'd need to have a compressor with zero latency. Or, otherwise do latency compensation by adding an equivalent delay after each send. This might be a useful addition to my plug-in.
Hopefully this makes some sense. I'll put some more thoughts down on paper tonight.
Cheers
Kris
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| Re: Native sumbixes - do you use them? [message #104930 is a reply to message #104929] |
Mon, 01 March 2010 20:48 |
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Oh man, using a silenced audio file to fake out PARIS' FX - that's great! Can you email me the text and images broken out, and I'll insert it as Wiki article?
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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