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- why no Linux DAW? [message #97467] Wed, 26 March 2008 05:57 Go to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97468 is a reply to message #97467] Wed, 26 March 2008 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chuck duffy is currently offline  chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
There are a couple different linux daws. Ardour is the big one I think. The
setup and configuration is not for the faint of heart. The OS needs to be
tweaked up a lot for low latency audio.

The lack of audio hardware drivers and linux specific plugin versions are
big drawbacks.

If someone did an audio only linux distro on a click and run ISO image that
was all tricked out and ready to go it would be pretty cool. Maybe its out
there.

Chuck
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
>have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
>for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting

>all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97469 is a reply to message #97467] Wed, 26 March 2008 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
erlilo is currently offline  erlilo   DENMARK
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
Senior Member
There is coming a third service pack for WinXP in next month. As I
understand, it will get better safety but best of all, it will be speeded up
on most of the things. So now we can wait and see if the speed will be true
or not;-)

Erling

"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:47ea4b07@linux...
> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes have
> too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper for
> Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting all
> the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few companies
> would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97470 is a reply to message #97467] Wed, 26 March 2008 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
This is trying to be that

http://ubuntustudio.org/

I've tried it a few times, it doesn't get done what I need. VST support goes
back and forth as it's hard to get such stridently non-free software working
with free apps. The plug-in companies won't offer any support. That said,
I do know one guy who uses Ardour for his vocal overdubs at home.

The linux kernel (when properly configured) can be a SPECTACULAR low latency
system. The issue is hardware/software support.

TCB

Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
>have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
>for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting

>all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? + Win XP SP3 [message #97471 is a reply to message #97469] Wed, 26 March 2008 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark McDermott is currently offline  Mark McDermott   
Messages: 204
Registered: February 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Senior Member
Be careful with XP SP3. We're waiting to see exactly what's changed and what
hasn't. We do know that XP SP3 will replace XP's printing subsystem with
Vista's.

Based on all of the printing bugs we've seen on Vista, this might stop existing
print drivers from functioning.

I'll post more when I know more!

Mark

"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>There is coming a third service pack for WinXP in next month. As I
>understand, it will get better safety but best of all, it will be speeded
up
>on most of the things. So now we can wait and see if the speed will be true

>or not;-)
>
>Erling
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:47ea4b07@linux...
>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes have

>> too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper for
>> Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting all

>> the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few companies

>> would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>
>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97472 is a reply to message #97469] Wed, 26 March 2008 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
It's interesting that they are still updating a legacy OS. 'Course it's
still running on all my machines.

erlilo wrote:
> There is coming a third service pack for WinXP in next month. As I
> understand, it will get better safety but best of all, it will be speeded up
> on most of the things. So now we can wait and see if the speed will be true
> or not;-)
>
> Erling
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:47ea4b07@linux...
>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes have
>> too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper for
>> Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting all
>> the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few companies
>> would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>
>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97473 is a reply to message #97470] Wed, 26 March 2008 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
So with that potential and none of the low latency systems truly giving
what I call professional latency, I would think there is a market for
some bold company to do it with a soft/hard solution, but I know there
is a big risk and it's probably a lot of work putting it all together.

TCB wrote:
> This is trying to be that
>
> http://ubuntustudio.org/
>
> I've tried it a few times, it doesn't get done what I need. VST support goes
> back and forth as it's hard to get such stridently non-free software working
> with free apps. The plug-in companies won't offer any support. That said,
> I do know one guy who uses Ardour for his vocal overdubs at home.
>
> The linux kernel (when properly configured) can be a SPECTACULAR low latency
> system. The issue is hardware/software support.
>
> TCB
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
>> have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
>> for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>
>> all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>> companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97475 is a reply to message #97473] Wed, 26 March 2008 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chuck duffy is currently offline  chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
The last time someone really tried was 97 if you know what I mean :-).

Chuck

Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>So with that potential and none of the low latency systems truly giving

>what I call professional latency, I would think there is a market for
>some bold company to do it with a soft/hard solution, but I know there
>is a big risk and it's probably a lot of work putting it all together.
>
>TCB wrote:
>> This is trying to be that
>>
>> http://ubuntustudio.org/
>>
>> I've tried it a few times, it doesn't get done what I need. VST support
goes
>> back and forth as it's hard to get such stridently non-free software working
>> with free apps. The plug-in companies won't offer any support. That said,
>> I do know one guy who uses Ardour for his vocal overdubs at home.
>>
>> The linux kernel (when properly configured) can be a SPECTACULAR low latency
>> system. The issue is hardware/software support.
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes

>>> have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper

>>> for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>>
>>> all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>>> companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97476 is a reply to message #97475] Wed, 26 March 2008 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Lincoln is currently offline  Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
oohhh....good one!
r
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>The last time someone really tried was 97 if you know what I mean :-).
>
>Chuck
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>So with that potential and none of the low latency systems truly giving
>
>>what I call professional latency, I would think there is a market for
>>some bold company to do it with a soft/hard solution, but I know there

>>is a big risk and it's probably a lot of work putting it all together.
>>
>>TCB wrote:
>>> This is trying to be that
>>>
>>> http://ubuntustudio.org/
>>>
>>> I've tried it a few times, it doesn't get done what I need. VST support
>goes
>>> back and forth as it's hard to get such stridently non-free software
working
>>> with free apps. The plug-in companies won't offer any support. That said,
>>> I do know one guy who uses Ardour for his vocal overdubs at home.
>>>
>>> The linux kernel (when properly configured) can be a SPECTACULAR low
latency
>>> system. The issue is hardware/software support.
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
>
>>>> have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
>
>>>> for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>>>
>>>> all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>>>> companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>>>
>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97480 is a reply to message #97468] Wed, 26 March 2008 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kerry Galloway is currently offline  Kerry Galloway   CANADA
Messages: 56
Registered: December 2008
Member
Hi all... long time no post. I'm on the verge of coming back into the
Paris fold soon (this time on PC) after far too long spent pining for
the fat sound, zero latency and hardware-like response of Paris, and
will no doubt have myriad newbie PC configuration questions soon enough.


But I thought I'd chime in. In case this isn't yet public knowledge here
- rejoice, for a Linux DAW has come!

Well, sorta. Kinda. Okay, not really.

However, the formidable REAPER, which seems to be pretty well known and
well-thought-of here - while not actually *ported* to Linux - is
apparently now *running* quite well under Linux using WINE, a
compatibility layer of substitutes for Windows APIs (as far as I
understand it), and WINEAsio drivers.

It seems a tad geeky to configure and get running, but reportedly once
configured, REAPER (along I believe with the at-times very good included
plugins - and now apparently some Windows VSTs) runs well and with nice
low latencies (some reportedly less than 3ms, although I have no idea
how rigorously that might have been measured).

Here's a link to a step-by-step "how to" and a lot more info:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16786&highl ight=linux

As the poster says:

"... The REAPER dev team do a great job of keeping REAPER "Wine
friendly". in conjunction with Wine, we use a special ASIO driver, aptly
named "WineAsio" which we use within wine to be able to use a true blue
windows vst host to use windows-compiled VSTs, and any other great DAW
features like midi sequencing, in-house effects etc. There will be more
on this as we go through the guide."

(...)

"... there will always be an "overhead" when using wine when compared to
running it natively. this is because the wine api is running OVER the
linux, so while JACK may give you some crazy good latencies, dont expect
to be able to function as smoothly as native Windows just yet....for
most its just fine though. some of the major issues mostly have to do
with the gui (being slower or slightly choppy at times)."

----

I did a fair bit of audio editing work under Linux last year using a
low-latency-kernel distro called DeMuDi put out by the AGNULA project
with a lot of bundled apps, just for the sake of trying something new.

Trying it out was was pretty cool, but I had it installed on a very old
Pentium so I can't comment much about the more advanced applications.
But the algos for things like timestretching and pitch shifting, as well
as many other processes, were excellent.

Apparently AGNULA has since lost its EEC funding and Demudi has now been
folded into the Debian Multimedia Project, which I don't know much about.

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMultimedia

Hope this info is of interest to someone.

- Kerry

Oh - PS - anyone got any documentation on the Paris session file format?
I'd love it if someone got enough info to Justin so he could take a look
at being able to import Paris sessions - he did it with RADAR in about
two or three days, so with documentation I wonder how hard it could be
to do the same with Paris?

In article <47ea4c39$1@linux>, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:

> There are a couple different linux daws. Ardour is the big one I think. The
> setup and configuration is not for the faint of heart. The OS needs to be
> tweaked up a lot for low latency audio.
>
> The lack of audio hardware drivers and linux specific plugin versions are
> big drawbacks.
>
> If someone did an audio only linux distro on a click and run ISO image that
> was all tricked out and ready to go it would be pretty cool. Maybe its out
> there.
>
> Chuck
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
> >As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
> >have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
> >for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>
> >all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
> >companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97483 is a reply to message #97473] Thu, 27 March 2008 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
I don't think it's worth the effort when current native systems are actually
quite usable and hardware workarounds for latency are pretty solid.

GNU/linux options will continue to improve, slowly but surely, as programmers
will continue to program. But I don't see anyone pumping a bunch of money
into GNU audio software any time soon. Databases, server monitoring, that
sort of thing (see Sun finally getting religion on this front) will continue
to be where the action is for free software.

TCB

Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>So with that potential and none of the low latency systems truly giving

>what I call professional latency, I would think there is a market for
>some bold company to do it with a soft/hard solution, but I know there
>is a big risk and it's probably a lot of work putting it all together.
>
>TCB wrote:
>> This is trying to be that
>>
>> http://ubuntustudio.org/
>>
>> I've tried it a few times, it doesn't get done what I need. VST support
goes
>> back and forth as it's hard to get such stridently non-free software working
>> with free apps. The plug-in companies won't offer any support. That said,
>> I do know one guy who uses Ardour for his vocal overdubs at home.
>>
>> The linux kernel (when properly configured) can be a SPECTACULAR low latency
>> system. The issue is hardware/software support.
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes

>>> have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper

>>> for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>>
>>> all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>>> companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
>>
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97503 is a reply to message #97480] Thu, 27 March 2008 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
All good advice and cool software. I _really_ like the Debian Multimedia guys,
in the long run they'll come up with something really cool.

That said, the real problem these days is that so much of the high quality
audio tech and hardware is proprietary. Until there are drivers for the best
hardware, native versions of the software, and some way to _legitimately_
use stuff like VST plug-ins on GNU/linux there will always be a penalty paid
for not being on Windows or OS X. The Debian guys are purists to the core
so they'll be the last ones to cave on these issues. That's why I think the
'nod and wink' attitude of the Ubuntu Studio crew is likely to wind up with
something workable before anyone else.

I hope I'm wrong. If I could run Live and all of my VST f/x and instruments
on Debian tomorrow I'd be the happiest kid in the world. I'd burn all of
my M$oft stuff in a second.

TCB

Kerry Galloway <kerrygalloway@telus.net> wrote:
>Hi all... long time no post. I'm on the verge of coming back into the
>Paris fold soon (this time on PC) after far too long spent pining for
>the fat sound, zero latency and hardware-like response of Paris, and
>will no doubt have myriad newbie PC configuration questions soon enough.
>
>
>But I thought I'd chime in. In case this isn't yet public knowledge here

>- rejoice, for a Linux DAW has come!
>
>Well, sorta. Kinda. Okay, not really.
>
>However, the formidable REAPER, which seems to be pretty well known and

>well-thought-of here - while not actually *ported* to Linux - is
>apparently now *running* quite well under Linux using WINE, a
>compatibility layer of substitutes for Windows APIs (as far as I
>understand it), and WINEAsio drivers.
>
>It seems a tad geeky to configure and get running, but reportedly once
>configured, REAPER (along I believe with the at-times very good included

>plugins - and now apparently some Windows VSTs) runs well and with nice

>low latencies (some reportedly less than 3ms, although I have no idea
>how rigorously that might have been measured).
>
>Here's a link to a step-by-step "how to" and a lot more info:
>
> http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16786&highl ight=linux
>
>As the poster says:
>
>"... The REAPER dev team do a great job of keeping REAPER "Wine
>friendly". in conjunction with Wine, we use a special ASIO driver, aptly

>named "WineAsio" which we use within wine to be able to use a true blue

>windows vst host to use windows-compiled VSTs, and any other great DAW
>features like midi sequencing, in-house effects etc. There will be more

>on this as we go through the guide."
>
>(...)
>
>"... there will always be an "overhead" when using wine when compared to

>running it natively. this is because the wine api is running OVER the
>linux, so while JACK may give you some crazy good latencies, dont expect

>to be able to function as smoothly as native Windows just yet....for
>most its just fine though. some of the major issues mostly have to do
>with the gui (being slower or slightly choppy at times)."
>
>----
>
>I did a fair bit of audio editing work under Linux last year using a
>low-latency-kernel distro called DeMuDi put out by the AGNULA project
>with a lot of bundled apps, just for the sake of trying something new.
>
>Trying it out was was pretty cool, but I had it installed on a very old

>Pentium so I can't comment much about the more advanced applications.
>But the algos for things like timestretching and pitch shifting, as well

>as many other processes, were excellent.
>
>Apparently AGNULA has since lost its EEC funding and Demudi has now been

>folded into the Debian Multimedia Project, which I don't know much about.
>
>http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMultimedia
>
>Hope this info is of interest to someone.
>
>- Kerry
>
>Oh - PS - anyone got any documentation on the Paris session file format?

>I'd love it if someone got enough info to Justin so he could take a look

>at being able to import Paris sessions - he did it with RADAR in about
>two or three days, so with documentation I wonder how hard it could be
>to do the same with Paris?
>
>In article <47ea4c39$1@linux>, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>> There are a couple different linux daws. Ardour is the big one I think.
The
>> setup and configuration is not for the faint of heart. The OS needs to
be
>> tweaked up a lot for low latency audio.
>>
>> The lack of audio hardware drivers and linux specific plugin versions
are
>> big drawbacks.
>>
>> If someone did an audio only linux distro on a click and run ISO image
that
>> was all tricked out and ready to go it would be pretty cool. Maybe its
out
>> there.
>>
>> Chuck
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> >As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes

>> >have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper

>> >for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
>>
>> >all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
>> >companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.
- Re: why no Linux DAW? [message #97995 is a reply to message #97467] Tue, 15 April 2008 20:25 Go to previous message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009
Senior Member
Administrator
Some new info on REAPER on Linux

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15238


On 3/26/08 5:57 AM, in article 47ea4b07@linux, "Bill L"
<bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:

> As I understand it, the stop on true low latency is because the OSes
> have too much extra stuff running. Why not write/port one like Reaper
> for Linux? Wouldn't that be a solution? Would there be a problem getting
> all the VST plugs to work? and of course drivers? But surely a few
> companies would write drivers if there appeared to be a potential market.


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