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Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107914]

Wed, 16 October 2013 10:58

pbraun

Messages: 63
Registered: June 2009
Location: Northwest Indiana

Member

I just fired up the PARIS rig after a long time of inactivity, mixed a couple of tunes, did the stereo bounces...

Which reminded me to ask you guys about an issue I've always had.

I set my submix, set the master fader at just a hair under max, and bounce. I've got plenty of signal on the master bus.

But when I pull the stereo mixdown into something like iTunes to listen, it's always wayyyyyyy lower than everything else. I'm not talking about a clean mix vs. a "loudness wars" mastering overcrunch. I'm talking about playback levels being far lower than what I would expect based on the output meters on the master fader.

Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks!

Paul Braun, Certified Music Junkie

"Music washes from the soul the dust of everyday life." -- Harlan Howard

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107915 is a reply to message #107914]

Wed, 16 October 2013 11:56

kerryg

Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009

Senior Member
Administrator

PARIS' intentional "gaming" of the meters and the gain staging is a huge part of its "mojo" and its sense of enormous headroom. Mixing hot in PARIS isn't just OK, it's recommended.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107916 is a reply to message #107915]

Wed, 16 October 2013 12:03

pbraun

Messages: 63
Registered: June 2009
Location: Northwest Indiana

Member

Thanks, Kerry.

I understand that pushing PARIS into the red isn't a showstopper. But I'm pushing the master meters almost to the top (like within a segment or two) and the final mixes are coming out seriously quiet compared to other songs, even ones mixed and mastered with minimal squishing.

It's had me stumped for years. There must be something I'm missing.

Paul Braun, Certified Music Junkie

"Music washes from the soul the dust of everyday life." -- Harlan Howard

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107917 is a reply to message #107916]

Wed, 16 October 2013 12:20

kerryg

Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009

Senior Member
Administrator

Somewhere in our archives is a fascinating piece of info which I can't locate this moment: at some point early in the internal gain staging PARIS intentionally drops the gain on each signal by a remarkable amount - IIRC it might have been 18dB - but, and here's the kicker, keeps displaying it on the meters as if it were still the original. This just happened to be exactly the approach some of the top ears in the industry (Dan Lavry for one) would recommend a decade later as best practice for digital. So this is actually expected behaviour, and in fact an insight into how PARIS works its mojo.

"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Wed, 16 October 2013 12:21]

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107923 is a reply to message #107917]

Thu, 17 October 2013 09:32

mikeaudet

Messages: 477
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

I think this might be related to a display bug in the PARIS app. When bounce to disk is selected, the meters reflect the monitor levels, not the actual levels going to the disk. If you have the volume up because the monitor levels are turned up, it will appear as though the levels are hot going to disk when they are not.

Let me know if this explains it.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107952 is a reply to message #107923]

Thu, 31 October 2013 12:49

pbraun

Messages: 63
Registered: June 2009
Location: Northwest Indiana

Member

Okey doke. I should have some time to get back to mixing this weekend - I'll try hammering the mix bus based on my ears and see if I can get closer to what I think it should be without any ugly.

Paul Braun, Certified Music Junkie

"Music washes from the soul the dust of everyday life." -- Harlan Howard

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107956 is a reply to message #107952]

Sat, 02 November 2013 11:29

Ted Gerber

Messages: 705
Registered: January 2009

Senior Member

HI Paul -

One other thing to consider perhaps, is the level of the MEC outputs you are monitoring from. If you are monitoring at +4, then loading the bounced file into another playback system that's not at +4 it will be lower in volume compared to the Paris-monitored-version. This does not affect the comparative loudness of Paris bounced tracks to other tracks, nor does it address the Metering issue Kerry pointed out.

However, even if Paris is actually lower in "real world" levels when playing back from iTunes etc I know that going from +4 to -10 output exaggerates the difference.

Ted

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Re: Bounced mix levels are low. Why? [message #107966 is a reply to message #107956]

Wed, 06 November 2013 20:59

inkycu

Messages: 36
Registered: December 2010

Member

I dunno....I just normalize the thing then worry about the overall level when I use a mastering program....

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