Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83626 is a reply to message #83611] |
Tue, 24 April 2007 05:38   |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors
so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of
the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much
anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's
all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
Bill L
DJ wrote:
> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through chemistry
> lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain tumor on top of
> the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named Richard Patrick, was
> right next to a guy who got shot that day. They were both about 1/4 mile
> away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462d720f@linux...
>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore movie
>> fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>
>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back in
>> the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the campus and
>> was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time because it was part
>> of his medical records.
>>
>> Bill L
>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83678 is a reply to message #83626] |
Tue, 24 April 2007 20:23 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use of
psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in children. I
don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a "chemical imbalance."
Correlation is not causation. Of course a person may feel less depressed if
you keep their synapses saturated with serotonin, but sometimes they wind up
not feeling much of anything, emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these
SSRIs occasionally become suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same schools
who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug their kids when
they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems! Children are people, and
like people, they're all different. The fact that a person is now 5 years
old doesn't mean that person is ready for school. Or if he/she is ready for
school, it doesn't mean he/she is ready to sit still in a classroom and
learn the same way others do.
I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych drugs
for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who just want
their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and if your kid is
on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of Scientology.
In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find something around
40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back in the '70s? If not, I'd
be curious about the source of that statistic. How would anyone know that
without going in to the hospitals and diagnosing them? Most modern
psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and electroshock, and lobotomy?
Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now. Not to mention the fact that
anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by the family doctor
nowadays, rather than a shrink.
The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been attacking
back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy (discredit the
attacker). You raised some good questions with your initial post, but the
Scientological rant about psychs could make one question your motives, not
to mention that it seems outdated at best.
I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
Sarah
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors so
> it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of the
> victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical problems.
> But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much anything?
> And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's all good - as
> long as the insurance lasts.
>
> Bill L
>
> DJ wrote:
>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through chemistry
>> lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain tumor on top
>> of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named Richard
>> Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They were both
>> about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462d720f@linux...
>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore movie
>>> fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>
>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the campus
>>> and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time because it
>>> was part of his medical records.
>>>
>>> Bill L
>>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83714 is a reply to message #83678] |
Thu, 26 April 2007 01:23 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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ADA? American Diabetic Association? What? Sorry, I meant "APA," American
Psychiatric Association. Oops.
S
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:462ecaaa@linux...
>
> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>
> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
> too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
>
> Sarah
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors
>> so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
>> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of the
>> victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
>> problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much
>> anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's
>> all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>
>> Bill L
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through chemistry
>>> lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain tumor on
>>> top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named Richard
>>> Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They were both
>>> about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore movie
>>>> fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>
>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the campus
>>>> and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time because it
>>>> was part of his medical records.
>>>>
>>>> Bill L
>>>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83724 is a reply to message #83714] |
Thu, 26 April 2007 07:46 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
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Senior Member |
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I thought you were talking about some kind of audio-to-digital-to audio
converter that was hostile to Scientologists........but I didn't want to say
anything.
;o)
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:46306264$1@linux...
> ADA? American Diabetic Association? What? Sorry, I meant "APA,"
> American Psychiatric Association. Oops.
>
> S
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:462ecaaa@linux...
>>
>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>
>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
>> too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors
>>> so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
>>> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of
>>> the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
>>> problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much
>>> anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's
>>> all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>
>>> Bill L
>>>
>>> DJ wrote:
>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain
>>>> tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named
>>>> Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They
>>>> were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>
>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the
>>>>> campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time
>>>>> because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L
>>>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83741 is a reply to message #83678] |
Thu, 26 April 2007 20:17 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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Hi Sarah,
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology
is opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for
fixing up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You
cannot improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag of
chemicals or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only approach
which actually made anyone better was to address the individual as a
spiritual being.
Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals
with such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and
ignore it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the
way, the hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro
convulsive therapy department. I well understand your belief that it
must be ancient history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it -
they are still doing it.
You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before she
realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
"...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were
out rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong
to a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time anybody
isn’t for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a Scientologist,
that’ll discredit them because everybody knows they’re crazy.”
"So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you could
label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything about
Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another,
there are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term,
"don't judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in
dealing with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is defined
by the ability to tell right from wrong.
So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people
take antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1 (Class
A?, you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our children
get a poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have psychologists
on staff. Back when children all learned to read there were none. I
could give dozens of examples of what a value neutral society means to
the detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against psychiatry?
Bill L
Sarah wrote:
> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use of
> psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in children. I
> don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a "chemical imbalance."
> Correlation is not causation. Of course a person may feel less depressed if
> you keep their synapses saturated with serotonin, but sometimes they wind up
> not feeling much of anything, emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these
> SSRIs occasionally become suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>
> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same schools
> who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug their kids when
> they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems! Children are people, and
> like people, they're all different. The fact that a person is now 5 years
> old doesn't mean that person is ready for school. Or if he/she is ready for
> school, it doesn't mean he/she is ready to sit still in a classroom and
> learn the same way others do.
>
> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych drugs
> for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who just want
> their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and if your kid is
> on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
>
> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
> about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
> profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
> suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
> between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of Scientology.
> In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find something around
> 40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
> problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back in the '70s? If not, I'd
> be curious about the source of that statistic. How would anyone know that
> without going in to the hospitals and diagnosing them? Most modern
> psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and electroshock, and lobotomy?
> Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now. Not to mention the fact that
> anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by the family doctor
> nowadays, rather than a shrink.
>
> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been attacking
> back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy (discredit the
> attacker). You raised some good questions with your initial post, but the
> Scientological rant about psychs could make one question your motives, not
> to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>
> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
> too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
>
> Sarah
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors so
>> it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
>> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of the
>> victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical problems.
>> But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much anything?
>> And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's all good - as
>> long as the insurance lasts.
>>
>> Bill L
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through chemistry
>>> lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain tumor on top
>>> of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named Richard
>>> Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They were both
>>> about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462d720f@linux...
>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore movie
>>>> fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>
>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the campus
>>>> and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time because it
>>>> was part of his medical records.
>>>>
>>>> Bill L
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83755 is a reply to message #83741] |
Fri, 27 April 2007 02:59 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Bill,
Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except that
I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called "Psychiatry." I
know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider drugs a last resort. WWII
was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about your source for the "value
neutral" goal for America meeting.
Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are often
seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not, you
have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they taught
us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering, emotionally upset
body there, but inside there's a being, soul, whatever you want to call it.
You treat the whole package.
I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I believe
that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned people, but may
have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps bit too determined to
keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry. It's almost like she was
"collateral damage" in the war between the APA and COS.
If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health care
field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry. Don't even
get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
Peace,
Sarah
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46316c0d@linux...
> Hi Sarah,
>
> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology is
> opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for fixing
> up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You cannot
> improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag of chemicals
> or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only approach which
> actually made anyone better was to address the individual as a spiritual
> being.
>
> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals with
> such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and ignore
> it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the way, the
> hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro convulsive
> therapy department. I well understand your belief that it must be ancient
> history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it - they are still
> doing it.
>
> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before she
> realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>
> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were out
> rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong to
> a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time anybody isn’t
> for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a Scientologist, that’ll
> discredit them because everybody knows they’re crazy.”
>
> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you could
> label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything about
> Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>
> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another, there
> are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term, "don't
> judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in dealing
> with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is defined by the
> ability to tell right from wrong.
>
> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people take
> antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1 (Class A?,
> you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our children get a
> poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have psychologists on
> staff. Back when children all learned to read there were none. I could
> give dozens of examples of what a value neutral society means to the
> detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>
> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against psychiatry?
>
> Bill L
>
>
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use of
>> psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in children.
>> I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a "chemical
>> imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a person may feel
>> less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated with serotonin, but
>> sometimes they wind up not feeling much of anything, emotionally
>> speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs occasionally become suicidal, and
>> now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>
>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same schools
>> who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug their kids
>> when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems! Children are
>> people, and like people, they're all different. The fact that a person
>> is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is ready for school. Or if
>> he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean he/she is ready to sit still
>> in a classroom and learn the same way others do.
>>
>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who just
>> want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and if your
>> kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
>>
>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
>> about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
>> profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
>> suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
>> between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of
>> Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find
>> something around 40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed or
>> misdiagnosed medical problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back
>> in the '70s? If not, I'd be curious about the source of that statistic.
>> How would anyone know that without going in to the hospitals and
>> diagnosing them? Most modern psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and
>> electroshock, and lobotomy? Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now.
>> Not to mention the fact that anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often
>> prescribed by the family doctor nowadays, rather than a shrink.
>>
>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>
>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
>> too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors
>>> so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
>>> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of
>>> the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
>>> problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much
>>> anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's
>>> all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>
>>> Bill L
>>>
>>> DJ wrote:
>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain
>>>> tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named
>>>> Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They
>>>> were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>
>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the
>>>>> campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time
>>>>> because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L
>>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83757 is a reply to message #83755] |
Fri, 27 April 2007 05:50 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Sarah,
Your replies are always thoughtful and I appreciate that.
I agree with you (and so does Mr. Hubbard) that man is a composite
entity: the spirit which decides, the mind which computes and the body
which follows through. And in Scientology if the body is ill, it as
given physical healing first, before spiritual.
Hubbard was educated a an engineer and a scientist first. In the '30s he
was involved with early atomic research at George Washington University,
searching for answers in the minute energy particles of matter, but
quickly realized where that was heading and that it did not contain the
answers to man's problems.
His solutions have always been practical - they had to work the majority
of time and they had to be applicable by regular people. He gives an
example that if a cure to a deadly disease cures a thousand but in the
process kills 5, it is a good and practical solution. Regrettably there
are few perfect solutions.
In the case of psychiatry, their solutions are in the majority harmful,
both historically and today. If something does more harm than good, it
is evil. Putting millions of the most active, energetic children on very
powerful narcotics which cause brain shrinkage and are very likely to
lead to a life of drug dependency, just to quiet them down, when a
healthy diet and a lot more activity and exercise would give a far
better result, must by any practical definition be considered more
harmful than beneficial and therefore evil (not to mention just plain
lazy). The practice is evil and those who do it in the face of its
obvious harm are evil.
Why do they do it? It's a damn good living I guess. And the
pharmaceutical companies make a fortune off the kids today and I know
they're counting on a continuing stream of income from those kids for
the rest of their lives. But money alone cannot account for it. Good
people won't stoop to evil just to make a buck.
As to Lisa McPherson, I'm no authority on the story, but I hope you're
aware that while there was an abundance of media coverage, the initial
charges against the church were dropped when all the facts came to light.
Let's do good things we can be proud of in our lives and let's shine the
light of truth on those who do harm for personal gain or just plain evil
purposes.
Scientology works and it rewards its users with practical increases in
personal ability. My IQ has gone up from 140 to 151 in the past 5 years
from the counseling I have had. That's a good and useful result, and I
want more of that. Scientology's purpose is "to make the able more
able". And it works.
I could enjoy writing all day, but I have to get working, so I'll catch
ya later.
Bill
Sarah wrote:
> Hey Bill,
>
> Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
>
> No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
> psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
> ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
> mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except that
> I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called "Psychiatry." I
> know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider drugs a last resort. WWII
> was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about your source for the "value
> neutral" goal for America meeting.
>
> Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are often
> seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
> Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not, you
> have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they taught
> us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering, emotionally upset
> body there, but inside there's a being, soul, whatever you want to call it.
> You treat the whole package.
>
> I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
> intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I believe
> that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned people, but may
> have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps bit too determined to
> keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry. It's almost like she was
> "collateral damage" in the war between the APA and COS.
>
> If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health care
> field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry. Don't even
> get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
>
> Peace,
>
> Sarah
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46316c0d@linux...
>> Hi Sarah,
>>
>> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology is
>> opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for fixing
>> up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You cannot
>> improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag of chemicals
>> or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only approach which
>> actually made anyone better was to address the individual as a spiritual
>> being.
>>
>> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals with
>> such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and ignore
>> it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the way, the
>> hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro convulsive
>> therapy department. I well understand your belief that it must be ancient
>> history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it - they are still
>> doing it.
>>
>> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
>> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
>> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before she
>> realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>>
>> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were out
>> rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
>> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
>> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong to
>> a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time anybody isn’t
>> for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a Scientologist, that’ll
>> discredit them because everybody knows they’re crazy.”
>>
>> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
>> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you could
>> label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything about
>> Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
>> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
>> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>>
>> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
>> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
>> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
>> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another, there
>> are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term, "don't
>> judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in dealing
>> with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is defined by the
>> ability to tell right from wrong.
>>
>> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people take
>> antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1 (Class A?,
>> you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our children get a
>> poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have psychologists on
>> staff. Back when children all learned to read there were none. I could
>> give dozens of examples of what a value neutral society means to the
>> detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>>
>> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against psychiatry?
>>
>> Bill L
>>
>>
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use of
>>> psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in children.
>>> I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a "chemical
>>> imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a person may feel
>>> less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated with serotonin, but
>>> sometimes they wind up not feeling much of anything, emotionally
>>> speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs occasionally become suicidal, and
>>> now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>>
>>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same schools
>>> who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug their kids
>>> when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems! Children are
>>> people, and like people, they're all different. The fact that a person
>>> is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is ready for school. Or if
>>> he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean he/she is ready to sit still
>>> in a classroom and learn the same way others do.
>>>
>>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who just
>>> want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and if your
>>> kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
>>>
>>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
>>> about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
>>> profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
>>> suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
>>> between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of
>>> Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find
>>> something around 40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed or
>>> misdiagnosed medical problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back
>>> in the '70s? If not, I'd be curious about the source of that statistic.
>>> How would anyone know that without going in to the hospitals and
>>> diagnosing them? Most modern psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and
>>> electroshock, and lobotomy? Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now.
>>> Not to mention the fact that anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often
>>> prescribed by the family doctor nowadays, rather than a shrink.
>>>
>>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>>
>>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically talented,
>>> too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's couch. :)
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:462dfb10@linux...
>>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor doctors
>>>> so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during their
>>>> experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around 40% of
>>>> the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical
>>>> problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure pretty much
>>>> anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will catch so it's
>>>> all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>>
>>>> Bill L
>>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a brain
>>>>> tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a guy named
>>>>> Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that day. They
>>>>> were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main mall at UT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas back
>>>>>> in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on the
>>>>>> campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the time
>>>>>> because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83795 is a reply to message #83757] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 03:38 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well, one of the amazing, but unfortunate things about human beings is that
they can justify anything . . . I don't think people that you or I would
consider to be evil would generally consider themselves to be evil.
They've usually given themselves a healthy dose of justification. I wonder
sometimes if Hitler considered himself to be evil, and I usually conclude he
probably did not.
We should keep in mind that doctors (psychs and otherwise) are under
pressure from patients and/or their families to get results, and most adults
taking powerful psychiatric meds do so by choice, often out of desperation.
I personally, for example, don't like giving an agitated patient Haldol to
keep him from pulling his IVs or feeding tubes out, but I prefer it to
physical restraints. Not to mention, I generally need to follow the MDs'
orders. It's in my job description. :) I think ECT is barbaric, but it
has worked on depressed patients when nothing else has. Chemo for cancer is
still pretty brutal, too, but when it's a choice between that and death . .
..
Now, if Scientology can help people in these situations, why not make it
available outside the insulated, expensive world of Scientology? Workable
technologies should be shared with other workable, complimentary
techologies. The hospital system I work for has an expanding Integrative
Medicine department. This is basically the "whatever works" approach . . .
conventional medicine, acupuncture, herbals, ayurvedic, Chinese, massage,
etc, etc. Scientology works? Hey, add it to the list. Or, since it's a
religion, get your pastoral counselors on hospital staffs. Where I work,
the pastoral department has dozens of priests/ministers/rabbis, etc., to
attend to the spiritual needs of patients.
I myself am a huge fan of Integrative Medicine, and Andrew Weil, who
"invented" it.
Anyway, I think we're essentially in agreement -- people need to be treated
wholistically, effectively, and ethically.
Sarah
PS: When I was in my 20's, my IQ went from 124 to 162 after a few
"experiments" with psychedelics, but I don't think I'd recommend everyone do
that. :)
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:4631f238@linux...
> Hi Sarah,
>
> Your replies are always thoughtful and I appreciate that.
>
> I agree with you (and so does Mr. Hubbard) that man is a composite entity:
> the spirit which decides, the mind which computes and the body which
> follows through. And in Scientology if the body is ill, it as given
> physical healing first, before spiritual.
>
> Hubbard was educated a an engineer and a scientist first. In the '30s he
> was involved with early atomic research at George Washington University,
> searching for answers in the minute energy particles of matter, but
> quickly realized where that was heading and that it did not contain the
> answers to man's problems.
>
> His solutions have always been practical - they had to work the majority
> of time and they had to be applicable by regular people. He gives an
> example that if a cure to a deadly disease cures a thousand but in the
> process kills 5, it is a good and practical solution. Regrettably there
> are few perfect solutions.
>
> In the case of psychiatry, their solutions are in the majority harmful,
> both historically and today. If something does more harm than good, it is
> evil. Putting millions of the most active, energetic children on very
> powerful narcotics which cause brain shrinkage and are very likely to lead
> to a life of drug dependency, just to quiet them down, when a healthy diet
> and a lot more activity and exercise would give a far better result, must
> by any practical definition be considered more harmful than beneficial and
> therefore evil (not to mention just plain lazy). The practice is evil and
> those who do it in the face of its obvious harm are evil.
>
> Why do they do it? It's a damn good living I guess. And the pharmaceutical
> companies make a fortune off the kids today and I know they're counting on
> a continuing stream of income from those kids for the rest of their lives.
> But money alone cannot account for it. Good people won't stoop to evil
> just to make a buck.
>
> As to Lisa McPherson, I'm no authority on the story, but I hope you're
> aware that while there was an abundance of media coverage, the initial
> charges against the church were dropped when all the facts came to light.
>
> Let's do good things we can be proud of in our lives and let's shine the
> light of truth on those who do harm for personal gain or just plain evil
> purposes.
>
> Scientology works and it rewards its users with practical increases in
> personal ability. My IQ has gone up from 140 to 151 in the past 5 years
> from the counseling I have had. That's a good and useful result, and I
> want more of that. Scientology's purpose is "to make the able more able".
> And it works.
>
> I could enjoy writing all day, but I have to get working, so I'll catch ya
> later.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Hey Bill,
>>
>> Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
>>
>> No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
>> psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
>> ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
>> mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except
>> that I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called
>> "Psychiatry." I know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider drugs
>> a last resort. WWII was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about your
>> source for the "value neutral" goal for America meeting.
>>
>> Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are
>> often seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
>> Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not, you
>> have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they
>> taught us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering, emotionally
>> upset body there, but inside there's a being, soul, whatever you want to
>> call it. You treat the whole package.
>>
>> I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
>> intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I believe
>> that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned people, but
>> may have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps bit too
>> determined to keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry. It's almost
>> like she was "collateral damage" in the war between the APA and COS.
>>
>> If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health
>> care field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry. Don't
>> even get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46316c0d@linux...
>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>
>>> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology
>>> is opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for
>>> fixing up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You
>>> cannot improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag of
>>> chemicals or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only approach
>>> which actually made anyone better was to address the individual as a
>>> spiritual being.
>>>
>>> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals
>>> with such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and
>>> ignore it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the
>>> way, the hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro
>>> convulsive therapy department. I well understand your belief that it
>>> must be ancient history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it -
>>> they are still doing it.
>>>
>>> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
>>> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
>>> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before she
>>> realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>>>
>>> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were
>>> out rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
>>> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
>>> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong
>>> to a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time anybody
>>> isn’t for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a Scientologist,
>>> that’ll discredit them because everybody knows they’re crazy.”
>>>
>>> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
>>> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you could
>>> label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything about
>>> Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
>>> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
>>> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>>>
>>> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
>>> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
>>> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
>>> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another,
>>> there are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term,
>>> "don't judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in
>>> dealing with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is defined
>>> by the ability to tell right from wrong.
>>>
>>> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people
>>> take antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1 (Class
>>> A?, you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our children
>>> get a poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have psychologists
>>> on staff. Back when children all learned to read there were none. I
>>> could give dozens of examples of what a value neutral society means to
>>> the detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>>>
>>> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against
>>> psychiatry?
>>>
>>> Bill L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use
>>>> of psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in
>>>> children. I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a
>>>> "chemical imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a person
>>>> may feel less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated with
>>>> serotonin, but sometimes they wind up not feeling much of anything,
>>>> emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs occasionally become
>>>> suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>>>
>>>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same
>>>> schools who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug
>>>> their kids when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems!
>>>> Children are people, and like people, they're all different. The fact
>>>> that a person is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is ready for
>>>> school. Or if he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean he/she is
>>>> ready to sit still in a classroom and learn the same way others do.
>>>>
>>>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>>>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who
>>>> just want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and
>>>> if your kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
>>>>
>>>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
>>>> about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
>>>> profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
>>>> suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
>>>> between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of
>>>> Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find
>>>> something around 40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed
>>>> or misdiagnosed medical problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote
>>>> back in the '70s? If not, I'd be curious about the source of that
>>>> statistic. How would anyone know that without going in to the hospitals
>>>> and diagnosing them? Most modern psychiatrists are well beyond
>>>> thorazine and electroshock, and lobotomy? Come on . . . that's
>>>> practically sci-fi now. Not to mention the fact that anti-depressants
>>>> and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by the family doctor nowadays,
>>>> rather than a shrink.
>>>>
>>>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>>>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>>>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>>>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>>>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>>>
>>>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically
>>>> talented, too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's
>>>> couch. :)
>>>>
>>>> Sarah
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:462dfb10@linux...
>>>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor
>>>>> doctors so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during
>>>>> their experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around
>>>>> 40% of the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed
>>>>> medical problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure
>>>>> pretty much anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will
>>>>> catch so it's all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>
>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a
>>>>>> brain tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a
>>>>>> guy named Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that
>>>>>> day. They were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main
>>>>>> mall at UT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas
>>>>>>> back in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on
>>>>>>> the campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the
>>>>>>> time because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83796 is a reply to message #83795] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 06:44 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Sarah,
I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical.
But continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to
help people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it
justified. In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of
evil people and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at
the end he says if you started to see some of these characteristics as
being your own that disqualifies you from being really evil because the
truly evil cannot see that what they do is evil. They are living in a
world we do not even see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman
centurion. To them a lady offering samples of peanut butter in the
supermarket is really their mother making them eat something they hate.
I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
sane? Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the
lives they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time -
wouldn't you have to be insane to choose that?
In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
insanity. What you target is what you get. One of the big mistakes in
psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity. That is only going to
get them more insanity. Hubbard created Scientology to make the able
more able. That is the way out for all of us.
Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people
need help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs
available; Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world
wide; Applied Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the
overarching one, The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the
book, The Way To Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by
to help people make good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song
about that book you can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com.
Click on the link in the left column. We also have the Scientology
Volunteer Ministers who are active all over the world, notably after
9/11 and Katrina. Type any of those organization names into Google and
you will find plenty of data.
Bill L
Sarah wrote:
> Well, one of the amazing, but unfortunate things about human beings is that
> they can justify anything . . . I don't think people that you or I would
> consider to be evil would generally consider themselves to be evil.
> They've usually given themselves a healthy dose of justification. I wonder
> sometimes if Hitler considered himself to be evil, and I usually conclude he
> probably did not.
>
> We should keep in mind that doctors (psychs and otherwise) are under
> pressure from patients and/or their families to get results, and most adults
> taking powerful psychiatric meds do so by choice, often out of desperation.
> I personally, for example, don't like giving an agitated patient Haldol to
> keep him from pulling his IVs or feeding tubes out, but I prefer it to
> physical restraints. Not to mention, I generally need to follow the MDs'
> orders. It's in my job description. :) I think ECT is barbaric, but it
> has worked on depressed patients when nothing else has. Chemo for cancer is
> still pretty brutal, too, but when it's a choice between that and death . .
> .
>
> Now, if Scientology can help people in these situations, why not make it
> available outside the insulated, expensive world of Scientology? Workable
> technologies should be shared with other workable, complimentary
> techologies. The hospital system I work for has an expanding Integrative
> Medicine department. This is basically the "whatever works" approach . . .
> conventional medicine, acupuncture, herbals, ayurvedic, Chinese, massage,
> etc, etc. Scientology works? Hey, add it to the list. Or, since it's a
> religion, get your pastoral counselors on hospital staffs. Where I work,
> the pastoral department has dozens of priests/ministers/rabbis, etc., to
> attend to the spiritual needs of patients.
>
> I myself am a huge fan of Integrative Medicine, and Andrew Weil, who
> "invented" it.
>
> Anyway, I think we're essentially in agreement -- people need to be treated
> wholistically, effectively, and ethically.
>
> Sarah
>
> PS: When I was in my 20's, my IQ went from 124 to 162 after a few
> "experiments" with psychedelics, but I don't think I'd recommend everyone do
> that. :)
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:4631f238@linux...
>> Hi Sarah,
>>
>> Your replies are always thoughtful and I appreciate that.
>>
>> I agree with you (and so does Mr. Hubbard) that man is a composite entity:
>> the spirit which decides, the mind which computes and the body which
>> follows through. And in Scientology if the body is ill, it as given
>> physical healing first, before spiritual.
>>
>> Hubbard was educated a an engineer and a scientist first. In the '30s he
>> was involved with early atomic research at George Washington University,
>> searching for answers in the minute energy particles of matter, but
>> quickly realized where that was heading and that it did not contain the
>> answers to man's problems.
>>
>> His solutions have always been practical - they had to work the majority
>> of time and they had to be applicable by regular people. He gives an
>> example that if a cure to a deadly disease cures a thousand but in the
>> process kills 5, it is a good and practical solution. Regrettably there
>> are few perfect solutions.
>>
>> In the case of psychiatry, their solutions are in the majority harmful,
>> both historically and today. If something does more harm than good, it is
>> evil. Putting millions of the most active, energetic children on very
>> powerful narcotics which cause brain shrinkage and are very likely to lead
>> to a life of drug dependency, just to quiet them down, when a healthy diet
>> and a lot more activity and exercise would give a far better result, must
>> by any practical definition be considered more harmful than beneficial and
>> therefore evil (not to mention just plain lazy). The practice is evil and
>> those who do it in the face of its obvious harm are evil.
>>
>> Why do they do it? It's a damn good living I guess. And the pharmaceutical
>> companies make a fortune off the kids today and I know they're counting on
>> a continuing stream of income from those kids for the rest of their lives.
>> But money alone cannot account for it. Good people won't stoop to evil
>> just to make a buck.
>>
>> As to Lisa McPherson, I'm no authority on the story, but I hope you're
>> aware that while there was an abundance of media coverage, the initial
>> charges against the church were dropped when all the facts came to light.
>>
>> Let's do good things we can be proud of in our lives and let's shine the
>> light of truth on those who do harm for personal gain or just plain evil
>> purposes.
>>
>> Scientology works and it rewards its users with practical increases in
>> personal ability. My IQ has gone up from 140 to 151 in the past 5 years
>> from the counseling I have had. That's a good and useful result, and I
>> want more of that. Scientology's purpose is "to make the able more able".
>> And it works.
>>
>> I could enjoy writing all day, but I have to get working, so I'll catch ya
>> later.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Hey Bill,
>>>
>>> Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
>>>
>>> No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
>>> psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
>>> ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
>>> mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except
>>> that I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called
>>> "Psychiatry." I know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider drugs
>>> a last resort. WWII was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about your
>>> source for the "value neutral" goal for America meeting.
>>>
>>> Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are
>>> often seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
>>> Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not, you
>>> have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they
>>> taught us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering, emotionally
>>> upset body there, but inside there's a being, soul, whatever you want to
>>> call it. You treat the whole package.
>>>
>>> I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
>>> intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I believe
>>> that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned people, but
>>> may have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps bit too
>>> determined to keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry. It's almost
>>> like she was "collateral damage" in the war between the APA and COS.
>>>
>>> If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health
>>> care field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry. Don't
>>> even get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46316c0d@linux...
>>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology
>>>> is opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for
>>>> fixing up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You
>>>> cannot improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag of
>>>> chemicals or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only approach
>>>> which actually made anyone better was to address the individual as a
>>>> spiritual being.
>>>>
>>>> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals
>>>> with such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and
>>>> ignore it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the
>>>> way, the hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro
>>>> convulsive therapy department. I well understand your belief that it
>>>> must be ancient history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it -
>>>> they are still doing it.
>>>>
>>>> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
>>>> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
>>>> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before she
>>>> realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>>>>
>>>> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were
>>>> out rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
>>>> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
>>>> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong
>>>> to a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time anybody
>>>> isn’t for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a Scientologist,
>>>> that’ll discredit them because everybody knows they’re crazy.”
>>>>
>>>> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
>>>> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you could
>>>> label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything about
>>>> Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
>>>> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
>>>> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>>>>
>>>> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
>>>> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
>>>> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
>>>> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another,
>>>> there are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term,
>>>> "don't judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in
>>>> dealing with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is defined
>>>> by the ability to tell right from wrong.
>>>>
>>>> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people
>>>> take antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1 (Class
>>>> A?, you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our children
>>>> get a poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have psychologists
>>>> on staff. Back when children all learned to read there were none. I
>>>> could give dozens of examples of what a value neutral society means to
>>>> the detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>>>>
>>>> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against
>>>> psychiatry?
>>>>
>>>> Bill L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the use
>>>>> of psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in
>>>>> children. I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a
>>>>> "chemical imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a person
>>>>> may feel less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated with
>>>>> serotonin, but sometimes they wind up not feeling much of anything,
>>>>> emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs occasionally become
>>>>> suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>>>>
>>>>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same
>>>>> schools who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug
>>>>> their kids when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems!
>>>>> Children are people, and like people, they're all different. The fact
>>>>> that a person is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is ready for
>>>>> school. Or if he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean he/she is
>>>>> ready to sit still in a classroom and learn the same way others do.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>>>>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who
>>>>> just want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions, and
>>>>> if your kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK? :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can generalize
>>>>> about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are like any other
>>>>> profession . . . there are good and bad and everything in between. I
>>>>> suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the decades old battle
>>>>> between the American Psychiatric Association and the Church of
>>>>> Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych hospitals you will find
>>>>> something around 40% of the victims, er, 'patients' have undiagnosed
>>>>> or misdiagnosed medical problems" from something L. Ron Hubbard wrote
>>>>> back in the '70s? If not, I'd be curious about the source of that
>>>>> statistic. How would anyone know that without going in to the hospitals
>>>>> and diagnosing them? Most modern psychiatrists are well beyond
>>>>> thorazine and electroshock, and lobotomy? Come on . . . that's
>>>>> practically sci-fi now. Not to mention the fact that anti-depressants
>>>>> and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by the family doctor nowadays,
>>>>> rather than a shrink.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>>>>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>>>>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>>>>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>>>>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically
>>>>> talented, too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on Oprah's
>>>>> couch. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:462dfb10@linux...
>>>>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor
>>>>>> doctors so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during
>>>>>> their experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around
>>>>>> 40% of the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed
>>>>>> medical problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure
>>>>>> pretty much anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will
>>>>>> catch so it's all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a
>>>>>>> brain tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a
>>>>>>> guy named Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot that
>>>>>>> day. They were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the main
>>>>>>> mall at UT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas
>>>>>>>> back in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on
>>>>>>>> the campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the
>>>>>>>> time because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill L
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83797 is a reply to message #83796] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 07:47 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
> Hi Sarah,
>
> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
:o)
I am everywhere.............you cant escape!!!
> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical. But
> continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to help
> people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>
> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>
> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it justified.
> In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of evil people
> and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at the end he
> says if you started to see some of these characteristics as being your own
> that disqualifies you from being really evil because the truly evil cannot
> see that what they do is evil. They are living in a world we do not even
> see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman centurion. To them a lady
> offering samples of peanut butter in the supermarket is really their
> mother making them eat something they hate.
.........errrrr................that would be a paraniod person Bill
>
> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
> sane?
they may or may not be insane, but killing for the reasons you describe are
certainly evil.
Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the
> lives they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time -
> wouldn't you have to be insane to choose that?
......drug dependancy can actually lead to the lifestyle you describe.....and
there are "lots" of folks who have become drug dependant by taking
prescription meds. There is plenty of evidence that there can be a genetic
predisposition to depedency on certain drugs. Are these people evil?
>
> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
> insanity. What you target is what you get.
I believe this too and I'm not even a Scientologist (although maybe I was
one in a previous life?)
One of the big mistakes in
> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity.
That is only going to
> get them more insanity.
Depression is the #1 reason people see psycholoiatrists. there are lots of
reasons for depression, and religions/cults/groups of like-minded people
with the same agenda (like political parties even) are the top contenders
for screwing up someone's head (again MHO)
Hubbard created Scientology to make the able
> more able. That is the way out for all of us.
Again, I can do this without being part of a group hug.
>
> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people need
> help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs available;
> Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world wide; Applied
> Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the overarching one,
> The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the book, The Way To
> Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by to help people make
> good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song about that book you
> can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com. Click on the link in the
> left column. We also have the Scientology Volunteer Ministers who are
> active all over the world, notably after 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of
> those organization names into Google and you will find plenty of data.
>
> Bill L
I think this is great and I'm not trying to slag Scientology here.
Personally, I'm leery of all organized things. I even get paranoid when I
see a row of ducklings following their mother .........except that they
aren't ducklings......they are Roman centurions....and I know in the darkest
depths of my soul that their mother just made the eat something horrible and
they are *PISSED*!!!!!
;o)
|
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83806 is a reply to message #83797] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 11:33 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
DJ,
I said a "drug dealer" not a drug taker.
Bill L
DJ wrote:
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
>> Hi Sarah,
>>
>> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
>> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
>
> :o)
> I am everywhere.............you cant escape!!!
>
>
>> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
>> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical. But
>> continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to help
>> people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>>
>> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
>> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>>
>> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
>> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it justified.
>> In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of evil people
>> and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at the end he
>> says if you started to see some of these characteristics as being your own
>> that disqualifies you from being really evil because the truly evil cannot
>> see that what they do is evil. They are living in a world we do not even
>> see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman centurion. To them a lady
>> offering samples of peanut butter in the supermarket is really their
>> mother making them eat something they hate.
>
> ........errrrr................that would be a paraniod person Bill
>
>> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
>> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
>> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
>> sane?
>
> they may or may not be insane, but killing for the reasons you describe are
> certainly evil.
>
> Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the
>> lives they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time -
>> wouldn't you have to be insane to choose that?
>
> .....drug dependancy can actually lead to the lifestyle you describe.....and
> there are "lots" of folks who have become drug dependant by taking
> prescription meds. There is plenty of evidence that there can be a genetic
> predisposition to depedency on certain drugs. Are these people evil?
>> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
>> insanity. What you target is what you get.
>
> I believe this too and I'm not even a Scientologist (although maybe I was
> one in a previous life?)
>
> One of the big mistakes in
>> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity.
> That is only going to
>> get them more insanity.
>
> Depression is the #1 reason people see psycholoiatrists. there are lots of
> reasons for depression, and religions/cults/groups of like-minded people
> with the same agenda (like political parties even) are the top contenders
> for screwing up someone's head (again MHO)
>
> Hubbard created Scientology to make the able
>> more able. That is the way out for all of us.
>
> Again, I can do this without being part of a group hug.
>
>> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people need
>> help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs available;
>> Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world wide; Applied
>> Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the overarching one,
>> The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the book, The Way To
>> Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by to help people make
>> good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song about that book you
>> can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com. Click on the link in the
>> left column. We also have the Scientology Volunteer Ministers who are
>> active all over the world, notably after 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of
>> those organization names into Google and you will find plenty of data.
>>
>> Bill L
>
> I think this is great and I'm not trying to slag Scientology here.
> Personally, I'm leery of all organized things. I even get paranoid when I
> see a row of ducklings following their mother .........except that they
> aren't ducklings......they are Roman centurions....and I know in the darkest
> depths of my soul that their mother just made the eat something horrible and
> they are *PISSED*!!!!!
>
> ;o)
>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83807 is a reply to message #83806] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 12:29 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill,
I know that. Lots of folks who are addicted to drugs become dealser
themselves because they don't have the money to buy them otherwise. It
ensures that an adequate supply is always available.
Deej
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46339458@linux...
> DJ,
>
> I said a "drug dealer" not a drug taker.
>
> Bill L
>
> DJ wrote:
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>
>>> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
>>> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
>>
>> :o)
>> I am everywhere.............you cant escape!!!
>>
>>
>>> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
>>> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical.
>>> But continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to
>>> help people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>>>
>>> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
>>> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>>>
>>> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
>>> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it
>>> justified. In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of
>>> evil people and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at
>>> the end he says if you started to see some of these characteristics as
>>> being your own that disqualifies you from being really evil because the
>>> truly evil cannot see that what they do is evil. They are living in a
>>> world we do not even see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman
>>> centurion. To them a lady offering samples of peanut butter in the
>>> supermarket is really their mother making them eat something they hate.
>>
>> ........errrrr................that would be a paraniod person Bill
>>
>>> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
>>> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
>>> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
>>> sane?
>>
>> they may or may not be insane, but killing for the reasons you describe
>> are certainly evil.
>>
>> Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the
>>> lives they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time -
>>> wouldn't you have to be insane to choose that?
>>
>> .....drug dependancy can actually lead to the lifestyle you
>> describe.....and there are "lots" of folks who have become drug dependant
>> by taking prescription meds. There is plenty of evidence that there can
>> be a genetic predisposition to depedency on certain drugs. Are these
>> people evil?
>>> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
>>> insanity. What you target is what you get.
>>
>> I believe this too and I'm not even a Scientologist (although maybe I was
>> one in a previous life?)
>>
>> One of the big mistakes in
>>> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity.
>> That is only going to
>>> get them more insanity.
>>
>> Depression is the #1 reason people see psycholoiatrists. there are lots
>> of reasons for depression, and religions/cults/groups of like-minded
>> people with the same agenda (like political parties even) are the top
>> contenders for screwing up someone's head (again MHO)
>>
>> Hubbard created Scientology to make the able
>>> more able. That is the way out for all of us.
>>
>> Again, I can do this without being part of a group hug.
>>
>>> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people
>>> need help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs
>>> available; Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world
>>> wide; Applied Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the
>>> overarching one, The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the
>>> book, The Way To Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by
>>> to help people make good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song
>>> about that book you can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com.
>>> Click on the link in the left column. We also have the Scientology
>>> Volunteer Ministers who are active all over the world, notably after
>>> 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of those organization names into Google and
>>> you will find plenty of data.
>>>
>>> Bill L
>>
>> I think this is great and I'm not trying to slag Scientology here.
>> Personally, I'm leery of all organized things. I even get paranoid when I
>> see a row of ducklings following their mother .........except that they
>> aren't ducklings......they are Roman centurions....and I know in the
>> darkest depths of my soul that their mother just made the eat something
>> horrible and they are *PISSED*!!!!!
>>
>> ;o)
|
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83808 is a reply to message #83807] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 15:14 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm not sure I can express this adequately but I will try. Hubbard
wrote, "You are totally responsible for the condition you are in." While
that may sound hard, any lessening of responsibility alloys one's
integrity and lessens one's ability to solve the problem or improve the
condition. To the degree one blames others for one's condition he gives
responsibility to solve it to them and surrenders his causativeness.
Likewise each of us must take full responsibility for every other one of
us, to solve the rather large problems we face on this planet. If I
assume the viewpoint of another and I am willing to walk in another's
shoes I cannot but understand him and from that understanding I can help
him. One is only as valuable as he can serve and help others. Full
responsibility is the key to survival.
Bill L
DJ wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I know that. Lots of folks who are addicted to drugs become dealser
> themselves because they don't have the money to buy them otherwise. It
> ensures that an adequate supply is always available.
>
> Deej
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46339458@linux...
>> DJ,
>>
>> I said a "drug dealer" not a drug taker.
>>
>> Bill L
>>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
>>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>>
>>>> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
>>>> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
>>> :o)
>>> I am everywhere.............you cant escape!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
>>>> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical.
>>>> But continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to
>>>> help people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>>>>
>>>> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
>>>> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>>>>
>>>> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
>>>> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it
>>>> justified. In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of
>>>> evil people and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at
>>>> the end he says if you started to see some of these characteristics as
>>>> being your own that disqualifies you from being really evil because the
>>>> truly evil cannot see that what they do is evil. They are living in a
>>>> world we do not even see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman
>>>> centurion. To them a lady offering samples of peanut butter in the
>>>> supermarket is really their mother making them eat something they hate.
>>> ........errrrr................that would be a paraniod person Bill
>>>
>>>> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
>>>> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
>>>> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
>>>> sane?
>>> they may or may not be insane, but killing for the reasons you describe
>>> are certainly evil.
>>>
>>> Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the
>>>> lives they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time -
>>>> wouldn't you have to be insane to choose that?
>>> .....drug dependancy can actually lead to the lifestyle you
>>> describe.....and there are "lots" of folks who have become drug dependant
>>> by taking prescription meds. There is plenty of evidence that there can
>>> be a genetic predisposition to depedency on certain drugs. Are these
>>> people evil?
>>>> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
>>>> insanity. What you target is what you get.
>>> I believe this too and I'm not even a Scientologist (although maybe I was
>>> one in a previous life?)
>>>
>>> One of the big mistakes in
>>>> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity.
>>> That is only going to
>>>> get them more insanity.
>>> Depression is the #1 reason people see psycholoiatrists. there are lots
>>> of reasons for depression, and religions/cults/groups of like-minded
>>> people with the same agenda (like political parties even) are the top
>>> contenders for screwing up someone's head (again MHO)
>>>
>>> Hubbard created Scientology to make the able
>>>> more able. That is the way out for all of us.
>>> Again, I can do this without being part of a group hug.
>>>
>>>> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people
>>>> need help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs
>>>> available; Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world
>>>> wide; Applied Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the
>>>> overarching one, The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the
>>>> book, The Way To Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by
>>>> to help people make good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song
>>>> about that book you can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com.
>>>> Click on the link in the left column. We also have the Scientology
>>>> Volunteer Ministers who are active all over the world, notably after
>>>> 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of those organization names into Google and
>>>> you will find plenty of data.
>>>>
>>>> Bill L
>>> I think this is great and I'm not trying to slag Scientology here.
>>> Personally, I'm leery of all organized things. I even get paranoid when I
>>> see a row of ducklings following their mother .........except that they
>>> aren't ducklings......they are Roman centurions....and I know in the
>>> darkest depths of my soul that their mother just made the eat something
>>> horrible and they are *PISSED*!!!!!
>>>
>>> ;o)
>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83816 is a reply to message #83808] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 20:24 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Bill,
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:4633c817@linux...
> I'm not sure I can express this adequately but I will try. Hubbard wrote,
> "You are totally responsible for the condition you are in."
So if I'm walking down the sidewalk and someone in a rac leaves the roadway
and squashes me flat, am I responsible for the condition I am in?
> that may sound hard, any lessening of responsibility alloys one's
> integrity and lessens one's ability to solve the problem or improve the
> condition.
now I can understand this and I agree. If I survive the squashing, it will
not help me one iota to sit around and feel sorry for myself.
To the degree one blames others for one's condition he gives
> responsibility to solve it to them and surrenders his causativeness.
........not necessarily....by placing the blame squarely on someone else, I
ensure that my attorney has a case that will allow some kind of restitution
so that the rest of my (now somewhat amended) life is spent with some
aussurance that my medical bills will be paid and I will have someone around
to wipe my ass if I can't.
>
> Likewise each of us must take full responsibility for every other one of
> us, to solve the rather large problems we face on this planet.
.......tell that to the insurance adjustor for the *sqashor*.
If I
> assume the viewpoint of another and I am willing to walk in another's
> shoes I cannot but understand him and from that understanding I can help
> him. One is only as valuable as he can serve and help others. Full
> responsibility is the key to survival.
Bad shit happens to people all the time that is not their fault. Dwelling on
it perpetuates the hurt, I agree and I'm sure that you and others understand
this and are willing to help, but there's no way in hell that you, me or
anyone else would want to walk in their shoes.
Regards,
Deej
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83818 is a reply to message #83796] |
Sat, 28 April 2007 21:08 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Private thread? Hey, you're a married man, mister. :)
Anyway, you don't need to explain or defend Scientology to me. I'm
Scientology neutral. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm all about the
"whatever works" approach, so if it works for you, go for it.
Someone very close to me was in Scientology for about 10 years, part of that
time as a staff member, so I know a lot of Scientologists who gave up years
ago trying to get me into the fold. Nowadays I just occasionally bump into
musicians who are still into it, but we kind of avoid the subject. I've
read several LRH books, including selected bits from those gigantic red and
green encyclopedic volumes of "bulletins." My friend had this chart on his
apartment wall that I think was titled "the Bridge to Total Freedom," that
had all the levels one could attain and the specific abilities of that
level. I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8, said: "Ability to
be at cause over matter, energy, space, time, and thought, objective and
subjective, across all eight dynamics." That may not be an exact quote, but
pretty friggin' close. We used to argue about that for hours, mostly
because I'd say things like, "So, basically you're all going to be God?" He
got really pissed at me once when I tried to test the ability of someone who
had attained the level where he would be able to "exteriorize" at will (OT
5, maybe?) We were at one of the Scientology events I let him talk me into
attending, and this guy was talking about leaving his body and going to
Mars, and getting into a dolphin's body, just to see what it felt like.
During the Q & A, I asked him to tell me what I was holding behind my back.
My friend pulled me back into my chair with a dirty look, and the guy
answered by asking everyone to close their eyes and picture themselves
floating six feet outside the windows. Everyone applauded. Whatever.
I did enjoy the movie "Phenomenon," so if you tell me John Travolta really
did all that teleketic stuff in the movie, I'd be really impressed. John
Travolta's pretty hot in his old age. :)
I realize that since those days, Scientology has focused more on the more
down to earth, practical stuff, but we know from the court cases in the
media that the "sci-fi" stuff is still part of it. And that's perfectly
fine with me, but Scientology is a religion, and like all organized
religions requires faith. Christianity requires faith that the Bible is the
word of God. Scientology requires faith that LRH was who and what he
claimed to be, and that the time and/or money one spends there will get you
to those "abilities gained." I just don't do faith very well, and like DJ,
I'm leery of any group of humans united by a religious belief.
I guess many here would consider "Liberalism" a kind of religion, but it's
OK, I'm not a devout liberal. :)
I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
Hugs,
Sarah
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
> Hi Sarah,
>
> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
>
> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical. But
> continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to help
> people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>
> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>
> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it justified.
> In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of evil people
> and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at the end he
> says if you started to see some of these characteristics as being your own
> that disqualifies you from being really evil because the truly evil cannot
> see that what they do is evil. They are living in a world we do not even
> see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman centurion. To them a lady
> offering samples of peanut butter in the supermarket is really their
> mother making them eat something they hate.
>
> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
> sane? Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the lives
> they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time - wouldn't you
> have to be insane to choose that?
>
> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
> insanity. What you target is what you get. One of the big mistakes in
> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity. That is only going to
> get them more insanity. Hubbard created Scientology to make the able more
> able. That is the way out for all of us.
>
> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people need
> help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs available;
> Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world wide; Applied
> Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the overarching one,
> The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the book, The Way To
> Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by to help people make
> good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song about that book you
> can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com. Click on the link in the
> left column. We also have the Scientology Volunteer Ministers who are
> active all over the world, notably after 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of
> those organization names into Google and you will find plenty of data.
>
> Bill L
>
>
>
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Well, one of the amazing, but unfortunate things about human beings is
>> that they can justify anything . . . I don't think people that you or I
>> would consider to be evil would generally consider themselves to be evil.
>> They've usually given themselves a healthy dose of justification. I
>> wonder sometimes if Hitler considered himself to be evil, and I usually
>> conclude he probably did not.
>>
>> We should keep in mind that doctors (psychs and otherwise) are under
>> pressure from patients and/or their families to get results, and most
>> adults taking powerful psychiatric meds do so by choice, often out of
>> desperation. I personally, for example, don't like giving an agitated
>> patient Haldol to keep him from pulling his IVs or feeding tubes out, but
>> I prefer it to physical restraints. Not to mention, I generally need to
>> follow the MDs' orders. It's in my job description. :) I think ECT is
>> barbaric, but it has worked on depressed patients when nothing else has.
>> Chemo for cancer is still pretty brutal, too, but when it's a choice
>> between that and death . . .
>>
>> Now, if Scientology can help people in these situations, why not make it
>> available outside the insulated, expensive world of Scientology?
>> Workable technologies should be shared with other workable, complimentary
>> techologies. The hospital system I work for has an expanding Integrative
>> Medicine department. This is basically the "whatever works" approach . .
>> . conventional medicine, acupuncture, herbals, ayurvedic, Chinese,
>> massage, etc, etc. Scientology works? Hey, add it to the list. Or,
>> since it's a religion, get your pastoral counselors on hospital staffs.
>> Where I work, the pastoral department has dozens of
>> priests/ministers/rabbis, etc., to attend to the spiritual needs of
>> patients.
>>
>> I myself am a huge fan of Integrative Medicine, and Andrew Weil, who
>> "invented" it.
>>
>> Anyway, I think we're essentially in agreement -- people need to be
>> treated wholistically, effectively, and ethically.
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> PS: When I was in my 20's, my IQ went from 124 to 162 after a few
>> "experiments" with psychedelics, but I don't think I'd recommend everyone
>> do that. :)
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:4631f238@linux...
>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>
>>> Your replies are always thoughtful and I appreciate that.
>>>
>>> I agree with you (and so does Mr. Hubbard) that man is a composite
>>> entity: the spirit which decides, the mind which computes and the body
>>> which follows through. And in Scientology if the body is ill, it as
>>> given physical healing first, before spiritual.
>>>
>>> Hubbard was educated a an engineer and a scientist first. In the '30s he
>>> was involved with early atomic research at George Washington University,
>>> searching for answers in the minute energy particles of matter, but
>>> quickly realized where that was heading and that it did not contain the
>>> answers to man's problems.
>>>
>>> His solutions have always been practical - they had to work the majority
>>> of time and they had to be applicable by regular people. He gives an
>>> example that if a cure to a deadly disease cures a thousand but in the
>>> process kills 5, it is a good and practical solution. Regrettably there
>>> are few perfect solutions.
>>>
>>> In the case of psychiatry, their solutions are in the majority harmful,
>>> both historically and today. If something does more harm than good, it
>>> is evil. Putting millions of the most active, energetic children on very
>>> powerful narcotics which cause brain shrinkage and are very likely to
>>> lead to a life of drug dependency, just to quiet them down, when a
>>> healthy diet and a lot more activity and exercise would give a far
>>> better result, must by any practical definition be considered more
>>> harmful than beneficial and therefore evil (not to mention just plain
>>> lazy). The practice is evil and those who do it in the face of its
>>> obvious harm are evil.
>>>
>>> Why do they do it? It's a damn good living I guess. And the
>>> pharmaceutical companies make a fortune off the kids today and I know
>>> they're counting on a continuing stream of income from those kids for
>>> the rest of their lives. But money alone cannot account for it. Good
>>> people won't stoop to evil just to make a buck.
>>>
>>> As to Lisa McPherson, I'm no authority on the story, but I hope you're
>>> aware that while there was an abundance of media coverage, the initial
>>> charges against the church were dropped when all the facts came to
>>> light.
>>>
>>> Let's do good things we can be proud of in our lives and let's shine the
>>> light of truth on those who do harm for personal gain or just plain evil
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Scientology works and it rewards its users with practical increases in
>>> personal ability. My IQ has gone up from 140 to 151 in the past 5 years
>>> from the counseling I have had. That's a good and useful result, and I
>>> want more of that. Scientology's purpose is "to make the able more
>>> able". And it works.
>>>
>>> I could enjoy writing all day, but I have to get working, so I'll catch
>>> ya later.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
>>>>
>>>> No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
>>>> psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
>>>> ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
>>>> mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except
>>>> that I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called
>>>> "Psychiatry." I know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider
>>>> drugs a last resort. WWII was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about
>>>> your source for the "value neutral" goal for America meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are
>>>> often seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
>>>> Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not,
>>>> you have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they
>>>> taught us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering,
>>>> emotionally upset body there, but inside there's a being, soul,
>>>> whatever you want to call it. You treat the whole package.
>>>>
>>>> I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
>>>> intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I
>>>> believe that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned
>>>> people, but may have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps
>>>> bit too determined to keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry.
>>>> It's almost like she was "collateral damage" in the war between the APA
>>>> and COS.
>>>>
>>>> If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health
>>>> care field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry.
>>>> Don't even get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>>
>>>> Sarah
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:46316c0d@linux...
>>>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology
>>>>> is opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for
>>>>> fixing up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You
>>>>> cannot improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag
>>>>> of chemicals or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only
>>>>> approach which actually made anyone better was to address the
>>>>> individual as a spiritual being.
>>>>>
>>>>> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals
>>>>> with such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and
>>>>> ignore it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the
>>>>> way, the hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro
>>>>> convulsive therapy department. I well understand your belief that it
>>>>> must be ancient history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it -
>>>>> they are still doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
>>>>> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
>>>>> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before
>>>>> she realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were
>>>>> out rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
>>>>> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
>>>>> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong
>>>>> to a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time
>>>>> anybody isn’t for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a
>>>>> Scientologist, that’ll discredit them because everybody knows they’re
>>>>> crazy.”
>>>>>
>>>>> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
>>>>> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you
>>>>> could label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything
>>>>> about Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
>>>>> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
>>>>> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>>>>>
>>>>> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
>>>>> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
>>>>> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
>>>>> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another,
>>>>> there are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term,
>>>>> "don't judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in
>>>>> dealing with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is
>>>>> defined by the ability to tell right from wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people
>>>>> take antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1
>>>>> (Class A?, you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our
>>>>> children get a poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have
>>>>> psychologists on staff. Back when children all learned to read there
>>>>> were none. I could give dozens of examples of what a value neutral
>>>>> society means to the detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against
>>>>> psychiatry?
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the
>>>>>> use of psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in
>>>>>> children. I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a
>>>>>> "chemical imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a
>>>>>> person may feel less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated
>>>>>> with serotonin, but sometimes they wind up not feeling much of
>>>>>> anything, emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs
>>>>>> occasionally become suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same
>>>>>> schools who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug
>>>>>> their kids when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems!
>>>>>> Children are people, and like people, they're all different. The
>>>>>> fact that a person is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is
>>>>>> ready for school. Or if he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean
>>>>>> he/she is ready to sit still in a classroom and learn the same way
>>>>>> others do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>>>>>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who
>>>>>> just want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions,
>>>>>> and if your kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK?
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can
>>>>>> generalize about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are
>>>>>> like any other profession . . . there are good and bad and everything
>>>>>> in between. I suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the
>>>>>> decades old battle between the American Psychiatric Association and
>>>>>> the Church of Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych
>>>>>> hospitals you will find something around 40% of the victims, er,
>>>>>> 'patients' have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical problems" from
>>>>>> something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back in the '70s? If not, I'd be
>>>>>> curious about the source of that statistic. How would anyone know
>>>>>> that without going in to the hospitals and diagnosing them? Most
>>>>>> modern psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and electroshock, and
>>>>>> lobotomy? Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now. Not to mention
>>>>>> the fact that anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by
>>>>>> the family doctor nowadays, rather than a shrink.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>>>>>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>>>>>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>>>>>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>>>>>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically
>>>>>> talented, too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on
>>>>>> Oprah's couch. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:462dfb10@linux...
>>>>>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor
>>>>>>> doctors so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during
>>>>>>> their experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around
>>>>>>> 40% of the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed
>>>>>>> medical problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure
>>>>>>> pretty much anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will
>>>>>>> catch so it's all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>>>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a
>>>>>>>> brain tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a
>>>>>>>> guy named Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot
>>>>>>>> that day. They were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the
>>>>>>>> main mall at UT.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas
>>>>>>>>> back in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on
>>>>>>>>> the campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the
>>>>>>>>> time because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill L
>>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83832 is a reply to message #83818] |
Sun, 29 April 2007 06:09 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sarah, you're a gas (and I like that).
One last comment. Hubbard said, "What is true for you is true for you."
What he meant is to know what you know and only believe something
after you have experienced it. I've had some remarkable experiences in
Scientology, but one that was pretty heavy and resonates with other
people is this one:
I was a pretty heavy user when I was growing up, but I quit taking drugs
when I got into Scientology at about age 21. That was mainly
accomplished from an ethics standpoint (I could see it was hurting me)
but also because I would not have been allowed to continue in
Scientology otherwise.
I did still drink however, and I never really could control my drinking.
I'd go out once or twice a week and drink too much. Never intending to
do so, but somehow completely unable to stop once I started. You may not
have experienced that but surely you have known people like that. (Heavy
drinking is obviously not condoned, but alcohol itself is not disallowed
in Scientology.)
Finally after several attempts to handle it from different approaches in
counsellings, I erased the hidden underlying reason and instantly the
drinking urge was gone, I have never even wanted a drink since then. Now
I drink a glass of champagne or a nice wine once or twice a year, mainly
so my siblings and mother don't think I'm too weird.
That was a miracle, but it did not come easy. Like I said, I tried
several approaches over a decade before it was handled.
Do ya think others would benefit from that result?
That kind of real world improvement is priceless, so I have no qualms
about costs of donating for services, because it makes me more able to
reach my goals and help those around me. Otherwise I would not do it, duh.
Bill L
Sarah wrote:
> Private thread? Hey, you're a married man, mister. :)
>
> Anyway, you don't need to explain or defend Scientology to me. I'm
> Scientology neutral. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm all about the
> "whatever works" approach, so if it works for you, go for it.
>
> Someone very close to me was in Scientology for about 10 years, part of that
> time as a staff member, so I know a lot of Scientologists who gave up years
> ago trying to get me into the fold. Nowadays I just occasionally bump into
> musicians who are still into it, but we kind of avoid the subject. I've
> read several LRH books, including selected bits from those gigantic red and
> green encyclopedic volumes of "bulletins." My friend had this chart on his
> apartment wall that I think was titled "the Bridge to Total Freedom," that
> had all the levels one could attain and the specific abilities of that
> level. I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8, said: "Ability to
> be at cause over matter, energy, space, time, and thought, objective and
> subjective, across all eight dynamics." That may not be an exact quote, but
> pretty friggin' close. We used to argue about that for hours, mostly
> because I'd say things like, "So, basically you're all going to be God?" He
> got really pissed at me once when I tried to test the ability of someone who
> had attained the level where he would be able to "exteriorize" at will (OT
> 5, maybe?) We were at one of the Scientology events I let him talk me into
> attending, and this guy was talking about leaving his body and going to
> Mars, and getting into a dolphin's body, just to see what it felt like.
> During the Q & A, I asked him to tell me what I was holding behind my back.
> My friend pulled me back into my chair with a dirty look, and the guy
> answered by asking everyone to close their eyes and picture themselves
> floating six feet outside the windows. Everyone applauded. Whatever.
>
> I did enjoy the movie "Phenomenon," so if you tell me John Travolta really
> did all that teleketic stuff in the movie, I'd be really impressed. John
> Travolta's pretty hot in his old age. :)
>
> I realize that since those days, Scientology has focused more on the more
> down to earth, practical stuff, but we know from the court cases in the
> media that the "sci-fi" stuff is still part of it. And that's perfectly
> fine with me, but Scientology is a religion, and like all organized
> religions requires faith. Christianity requires faith that the Bible is the
> word of God. Scientology requires faith that LRH was who and what he
> claimed to be, and that the time and/or money one spends there will get you
> to those "abilities gained." I just don't do faith very well, and like DJ,
> I'm leery of any group of humans united by a religious belief.
>
> I guess many here would consider "Liberalism" a kind of religion, but it's
> OK, I'm not a devout liberal. :)
>
> I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
>
> Hugs,
>
> Sarah
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:46335089@linux...
>> Hi Sarah,
>>
>> I feel like this is our private thread and I almost wrote back to you
>> alone, but you never know who may be lurking.
>>
>> Hubbard was not opposed to use of whatever is efficacious to prevent
>> someone from hurting himself. He was as I stated eminently practical. But
>> continued use he would not tolerate when there are simple ways to help
>> people quickly recover from the dangerous condition.
>>
>> I would never fault a nurse or Dr. for doing what they had to do to keep
>> the patient alive or un-self-damaged.
>>
>> As for evil people, from the extreme like Hitler to the mundane but all
>> too common wife who poisons her husband, of course they have it justified.
>> In one of Hubbards articles he talks about characteristics of evil people
>> and the specific ways you can identify them socially and at the end he
>> says if you started to see some of these characteristics as being your own
>> that disqualifies you from being really evil because the truly evil cannot
>> see that what they do is evil. They are living in a world we do not even
>> see. They look at a policeman and see a Roman centurion. To them a lady
>> offering samples of peanut butter in the supermarket is really their
>> mother making them eat something they hate.
>>
>> I always thought the insanity plea in court was a crock because most
>> things that we consider criminal ARE insane acts. How can you say that
>> someone who kills another for personal gain or jealousy or whatever is
>> sane? Being a drug dealer or a theif is totally insane. Look at the lives
>> they have to lead, sneaking around scared most of the time - wouldn't you
>> have to be insane to choose that?
>>
>> In Scientology we concentrate on increasing ability, not decreasing
>> insanity. What you target is what you get. One of the big mistakes in
>> psychology/iatry is they concentrate on insanity. That is only going to
>> get them more insanity. Hubbard created Scientology to make the able more
>> able. That is the way out for all of us.
>>
>> Hubbard created secular organizations that target areas where people need
>> help: Narconon, one of the most effective drug rehab programs available;
>> Criminon, a very effective program used in many jails world wide; Applied
>> Scholastics, targeting illiteracy and education; and the overarching one,
>> The Way To Happiness Foundation which promotes the book, The Way To
>> Happiness, a group of pro-survival precepts to live by to help people make
>> good choices and improve their lives. I wrote a song about that book you
>> can listen to here http://www.billlorentzen.com. Click on the link in the
>> left column. We also have the Scientology Volunteer Ministers who are
>> active all over the world, notably after 9/11 and Katrina. Type any of
>> those organization names into Google and you will find plenty of data.
>>
>> Bill L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Well, one of the amazing, but unfortunate things about human beings is
>>> that they can justify anything . . . I don't think people that you or I
>>> would consider to be evil would generally consider themselves to be evil.
>>> They've usually given themselves a healthy dose of justification. I
>>> wonder sometimes if Hitler considered himself to be evil, and I usually
>>> conclude he probably did not.
>>>
>>> We should keep in mind that doctors (psychs and otherwise) are under
>>> pressure from patients and/or their families to get results, and most
>>> adults taking powerful psychiatric meds do so by choice, often out of
>>> desperation. I personally, for example, don't like giving an agitated
>>> patient Haldol to keep him from pulling his IVs or feeding tubes out, but
>>> I prefer it to physical restraints. Not to mention, I generally need to
>>> follow the MDs' orders. It's in my job description. :) I think ECT is
>>> barbaric, but it has worked on depressed patients when nothing else has.
>>> Chemo for cancer is still pretty brutal, too, but when it's a choice
>>> between that and death . . .
>>>
>>> Now, if Scientology can help people in these situations, why not make it
>>> available outside the insulated, expensive world of Scientology?
>>> Workable technologies should be shared with other workable, complimentary
>>> techologies. The hospital system I work for has an expanding Integrative
>>> Medicine department. This is basically the "whatever works" approach . .
>>> . conventional medicine, acupuncture, herbals, ayurvedic, Chinese,
>>> massage, etc, etc. Scientology works? Hey, add it to the list. Or,
>>> since it's a religion, get your pastoral counselors on hospital staffs.
>>> Where I work, the pastoral department has dozens of
>>> priests/ministers/rabbis, etc., to attend to the spiritual needs of
>>> patients.
>>>
>>> I myself am a huge fan of Integrative Medicine, and Andrew Weil, who
>>> "invented" it.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think we're essentially in agreement -- people need to be
>>> treated wholistically, effectively, and ethically.
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>> PS: When I was in my 20's, my IQ went from 124 to 162 after a few
>>> "experiments" with psychedelics, but I don't think I'd recommend everyone
>>> do that. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:4631f238@linux...
>>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>>
>>>> Your replies are always thoughtful and I appreciate that.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you (and so does Mr. Hubbard) that man is a composite
>>>> entity: the spirit which decides, the mind which computes and the body
>>>> which follows through. And in Scientology if the body is ill, it as
>>>> given physical healing first, before spiritual.
>>>>
>>>> Hubbard was educated a an engineer and a scientist first. In the '30s he
>>>> was involved with early atomic research at George Washington University,
>>>> searching for answers in the minute energy particles of matter, but
>>>> quickly realized where that was heading and that it did not contain the
>>>> answers to man's problems.
>>>>
>>>> His solutions have always been practical - they had to work the majority
>>>> of time and they had to be applicable by regular people. He gives an
>>>> example that if a cure to a deadly disease cures a thousand but in the
>>>> process kills 5, it is a good and practical solution. Regrettably there
>>>> are few perfect solutions.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of psychiatry, their solutions are in the majority harmful,
>>>> both historically and today. If something does more harm than good, it
>>>> is evil. Putting millions of the most active, energetic children on very
>>>> powerful narcotics which cause brain shrinkage and are very likely to
>>>> lead to a life of drug dependency, just to quiet them down, when a
>>>> healthy diet and a lot more activity and exercise would give a far
>>>> better result, must by any practical definition be considered more
>>>> harmful than beneficial and therefore evil (not to mention just plain
>>>> lazy). The practice is evil and those who do it in the face of its
>>>> obvious harm are evil.
>>>>
>>>> Why do they do it? It's a damn good living I guess. And the
>>>> pharmaceutical companies make a fortune off the kids today and I know
>>>> they're counting on a continuing stream of income from those kids for
>>>> the rest of their lives. But money alone cannot account for it. Good
>>>> people won't stoop to evil just to make a buck.
>>>>
>>>> As to Lisa McPherson, I'm no authority on the story, but I hope you're
>>>> aware that while there was an abundance of media coverage, the initial
>>>> charges against the church were dropped when all the facts came to
>>>> light.
>>>>
>>>> Let's do good things we can be proud of in our lives and let's shine the
>>>> light of truth on those who do harm for personal gain or just plain evil
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Scientology works and it rewards its users with practical increases in
>>>> personal ability. My IQ has gone up from 140 to 151 in the past 5 years
>>>> from the counseling I have had. That's a good and useful result, and I
>>>> want more of that. Scientology's purpose is "to make the able more
>>>> able". And it works.
>>>>
>>>> I could enjoy writing all day, but I have to get working, so I'll catch
>>>> ya later.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>> Hey Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for taking the time for thorough reply.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I don't wonder why you and other Scientologists are against
>>>>> psychiatry. I'm just thinking that what you're really against is
>>>>> ineffective, incomplete, and/or inhumane treatment of people with
>>>>> mental/spiritual issues. I guess really I'm agreeing with you, except
>>>>> that I don't believe in the big, monolithic, evil monster called
>>>>> "Psychiatry." I know too many good shrinks, some of whom consider
>>>>> drugs a last resort. WWII was a long time ago, but I'd be curious about
>>>>> your source for the "value neutral" goal for America meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I believe L. Ron himself said somewhere that psychotics are
>>>>> often seriously physically ill, and that needs to be dealt with first.
>>>>> Regardless, my point is that I think in all cases, psychotic or not,
>>>>> you have to treat the both the animal and the spirit. That's what they
>>>>> taught us in nursing school. There may be a sick, suffering,
>>>>> emotionally upset body there, but inside there's a being, soul,
>>>>> whatever you want to call it. You treat the whole package.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hate to use this example, but don't you think some timely medical
>>>>> intervention would have prevented the Lisa McPherson disaster? I
>>>>> believe that the Scientologists caring for her were well-intentioned
>>>>> people, but may have been a bit "blinded by the light," and a perhaps
>>>>> bit too determined to keep her from the evil clutches of psychiatry.
>>>>> It's almost like she was "collateral damage" in the war between the APA
>>>>> and COS.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I had to identify a big, monolithic, evil monster in the health
>>>>> care field, I'd be inclined to choose the pharmaceutical industry.
>>>>> Don't even get me stahted. (that was my Brooklyn accent)
>>>>>
>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:46316c0d@linux...
>>>>>> Hi Sarah,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Here is why Scientology
>>>>>> is opposed to psychiatry: While Scientology is not used primarily for
>>>>>> fixing up psychotic people, we certainly have the tools to do so. You
>>>>>> cannot improve a person by addressing him or her as an animal, a bag
>>>>>> of chemicals or a piece of meat. Hubbard discovered that the only
>>>>>> approach which actually made anyone better was to address the
>>>>>> individual as a spiritual being.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Knowing that and seeing how psychiatry addresses people like animals
>>>>>> with such horrendously destructive "treatment" we can not stand by and
>>>>>> ignore it. Therefore we do everything we can to discourage it. By the
>>>>>> way, the hospital 5 miles from my house has a very active electro
>>>>>> convulsive therapy department. I well understand your belief that it
>>>>>> must be ancient history as it so incredibly inhumane, but believe it -
>>>>>> they are still doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might find a movie I saw on YouTube recently enlightening.
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbs8s3VI6M
>>>>>> It's of a woman who wrote a book entitled "Confessions of an RX Drug
>>>>>> Pusher", who worked as a drug company sales rep for 15 years before
>>>>>> she realized what she was really selling. Here's a quote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "...So I started to question. There were a group of people that were
>>>>>> out rallying one time in front of one of the buildings that we were
>>>>>> approaching and my District Manager says, “Oh, that’s a bunch of
>>>>>> Scientologists. They’re, you know, all those crazy people. They belong
>>>>>> to a cult. They’re all anti psychiatric drugs. In fact, any time
>>>>>> anybody isn’t for psychiatric drugs, if you just label them a
>>>>>> Scientologist, that’ll discredit them because everybody knows they’re
>>>>>> crazy.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "So that kind of became my, you know, little tag line for anybody that
>>>>>> spoke out against psychiatric drugs, because I knew then that you
>>>>>> could label them as a Scientologist and people didn’t know anything
>>>>>> about Scientology, but they’d already gotten a bad rap because the
>>>>>> pharmaceutical industry was promoting that they were a cult that was
>>>>>> basically just out to destroy the psychiatric industry.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shortly after WW2, at its annual convention, the American Psychiatric
>>>>>> Assoc held a meeting and outlined their goals for America. One of the
>>>>>> primary goals was to create a "value neutral society". That means a
>>>>>> society in which there is no right or wrong, no one judges another,
>>>>>> there are no values. That goal has in many way come to pass. The term,
>>>>>> "don't judge me" is common in society, yet if we don't use judgment in
>>>>>> dealing with others we are truly fools. In law sanity itself is
>>>>>> defined by the ability to tell right from wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let's see the results: Jails are over flowing. Millions of people
>>>>>> take antipsychotic drugs just to cope. CHILDREN are given class 1
>>>>>> (Class A?, you would know) narcotics. As our technologies improve our
>>>>>> children get a poorer education. Look at our schools, they now have
>>>>>> psychologists on staff. Back when children all learned to read there
>>>>>> were none. I could give dozens of examples of what a value neutral
>>>>>> society means to the detriment of us all, and I bet you could too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you still wonder why I and other Scientologists are against
>>>>>> psychiatry?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>>>> I've been pretty appalled by the seemingly exponential rise in the
>>>>>>> use of psychiatric medications over the last 20 years, especially in
>>>>>>> children. I don't believe that depression necessarily caused by a
>>>>>>> "chemical imbalance." Correlation is not causation. Of course a
>>>>>>> person may feel less depressed if you keep their synapses saturated
>>>>>>> with serotonin, but sometimes they wind up not feeling much of
>>>>>>> anything, emotionally speaking. And teenagers on these SSRIs
>>>>>>> occasionally become suicidal, and now we think maybe homicidal, too?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've had this "War on Drugs" going for decades now, yet the same
>>>>>>> schools who "Dare To Keep Kids Off Drugs" encourage parents to drug
>>>>>>> their kids when they have behaviour and/or scholastic problems!
>>>>>>> Children are people, and like people, they're all different. The
>>>>>>> fact that a person is now 5 years old doesn't mean that person is
>>>>>>> ready for school. Or if he/she is ready for school, it doesn't mean
>>>>>>> he/she is ready to sit still in a classroom and learn the same way
>>>>>>> others do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hate to say this, I really do, but I think the popularity of psych
>>>>>>> drugs for children is largely the result of parents and teachers who
>>>>>>> just want their jobs to be easier. I'm sure there are exceptions,
>>>>>>> and if your kid is on psych drugs, you're probably one of them, OK?
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, having said that . . . Bill . . . I don't think you can
>>>>>>> generalize about the entire profession of psychiatry. Shrinks are
>>>>>>> like any other profession . . . there are good and bad and everything
>>>>>>> in between. I suspect your post on shrinks has its source in the
>>>>>>> decades old battle between the American Psychiatric Association and
>>>>>>> the Church of Scientology. In fact, isn't the line "In psych
>>>>>>> hospitals you will find something around 40% of the victims, er,
>>>>>>> 'patients' have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical problems" from
>>>>>>> something L. Ron Hubbard wrote back in the '70s? If not, I'd be
>>>>>>> curious about the source of that statistic. How would anyone know
>>>>>>> that without going in to the hospitals and diagnosing them? Most
>>>>>>> modern psychiatrists are well beyond thorazine and electroshock, and
>>>>>>> lobotomy? Come on . . . that's practically sci-fi now. Not to mention
>>>>>>> the fact that anti-depressants and ADHD drugs are often prescribed by
>>>>>>> the family doctor nowadays, rather than a shrink.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ADA attacked Scientology decades ago, and Scientology has been
>>>>>>> attacking back ever since, according to Mr. Hubbard's official policy
>>>>>>> (discredit the attacker). You raised some good questions with your
>>>>>>> initial post, but the Scientological rant about psychs could make one
>>>>>>> question your motives, not to mention that it seems outdated at best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you're a very nice man, and apparently quite musically
>>>>>>> talented, too. I just can't picture you jumping up and down on
>>>>>>> Oprah's couch. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:462dfb10@linux...
>>>>>>>> In medical circles, psychiatrists are known for being very poor
>>>>>>>> doctors so it doesn't surprise me to hear he was undiagnosed during
>>>>>>>> their experiments. In psych hospitals you will find something around
>>>>>>>> 40% of the victims, er, "patients" have undiagnosed or misdiagnosed
>>>>>>>> medical problems. But hey, doesn't Thorazine and electric shock cure
>>>>>>>> pretty much anything? And what they miss, a prefrontal lobotomy will
>>>>>>>> catch so it's all good - as long as the insurance lasts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill L
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>> well.........I'm not exactly one for the better living through
>>>>>>>>> chemistry lifestyle myself, but Charles Whitman also had quite a
>>>>>>>>> brain tumor on top of the anphetamines. My ex roommate in Austin, a
>>>>>>>>> guy named Richard Patrick, was right next to a guy who got shot
>>>>>>>>> that day. They were both about 1/4 mile away from the tower on the
>>>>>>>>> main mall at UT.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:462d720f@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> I have to preface by saying I have never been a big Michael Moore
>>>>>>>>>> movie fan, but he has hit the mark this time:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DJ mentioned the original school shooting at the college in Texas
>>>>>>>>>> back in the '60s. That guy was part of a psych drug experiment on
>>>>>>>>>> the campus and was high on amphetamines. It was hushed up at the
>>>>>>>>>> time because it was part of his medical records.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bill L
>
>
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83833 is a reply to message #83818] |
Sun, 29 April 2007 07:47 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8,
>said: "Ability to be at cause over matter, energy, space, time,
>and thought, objective and subjective, across all eight
>dynamics."
So if I got up this morning & picked up my coffee cup, poured
some water into it (being at cause over matter), stuck it in
the microwave & turned it on, heating it up (being at cause over
energy), put a couple spoonfuls of instant cappucino in it,
which is nice & thick & frothy, causing the water to expand
its dimensions (space), set my watch (time), then looked at
the time on my satellite receiver & thought: "no it was
correct, I'll set it back" (objective thought), then
decided "nah, I want it to be a couple minutes early, that way
I'm never late for anything", so I set it forward to where I
did prior (subjective thought), then I must be a "OT level 8"!!!
Damn, and I've never even attended a Scientology meeting...
can I test out or get some kind of discount since I'm already
so advanced? :)
>I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
Must be those ducklings, huh? Going after them on their home
planet, are you?
:)
Neil
|
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83841 is a reply to message #83833] |
Sun, 29 April 2007 13:37 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You're there, Baby!
Neil, I love the fact that you think so fluently with those concepts.
Smart people are much more fun to be around. I have definitely observed
that musicians (especially guitarists - ;-)) are smarter than any other
type of people.
Bill L
Neil wrote:
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8,
>> said: "Ability to be at cause over matter, energy, space, time,
>> and thought, objective and subjective, across all eight
>> dynamics."
>
> So if I got up this morning & picked up my coffee cup, poured
> some water into it (being at cause over matter), stuck it in
> the microwave & turned it on, heating it up (being at cause over
> energy), put a couple spoonfuls of instant cappucino in it,
> which is nice & thick & frothy, causing the water to expand
> its dimensions (space), set my watch (time), then looked at
> the time on my satellite receiver & thought: "no it was
> correct, I'll set it back" (objective thought), then
> decided "nah, I want it to be a couple minutes early, that way
> I'm never late for anything", so I set it forward to where I
> did prior (subjective thought), then I must be a "OT level 8"!!!
>
> Damn, and I've never even attended a Scientology meeting...
> can I test out or get some kind of discount since I'm already
> so advanced? :)
>
>> I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
>
> Must be those ducklings, huh? Going after them on their home
> planet, are you?
>
> :)
>
> Neil
|
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83842 is a reply to message #83833] |
Sun, 29 April 2007 15:12 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Deeeeeej! Neil is OT 8 and he knows where the ducks are from! I think he
might be one of them . . .
S
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4634affe$1@linux...
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8,
>>said: "Ability to be at cause over matter, energy, space, time,
>>and thought, objective and subjective, across all eight
>>dynamics."
>
> So if I got up this morning & picked up my coffee cup, poured
> some water into it (being at cause over matter), stuck it in
> the microwave & turned it on, heating it up (being at cause over
> energy), put a couple spoonfuls of instant cappucino in it,
> which is nice & thick & frothy, causing the water to expand
> its dimensions (space), set my watch (time), then looked at
> the time on my satellite receiver & thought: "no it was
> correct, I'll set it back" (objective thought), then
> decided "nah, I want it to be a couple minutes early, that way
> I'm never late for anything", so I set it forward to where I
> did prior (subjective thought), then I must be a "OT level 8"!!!
>
> Damn, and I've never even attended a Scientology meeting...
> can I test out or get some kind of discount since I'm already
> so advanced? :)
>
>>I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
>
> Must be those ducklings, huh? Going after them on their home
> planet, are you?
>
> :)
>
> Neil
|
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| Re: OT - School Shootings and antidepressants movie [message #83847 is a reply to message #83842] |
Sun, 29 April 2007 17:38 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:46351941$1@linux...
> Deeeeeej! Neil is OT 8 and he knows where the ducks are from! I think he
> might be one of them . . .
>
> S
>
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4634affe$1@linux...
>>
>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>I've always remembered what the top level, OT 8,
>>>said: "Ability to be at cause over matter, energy, space, time,
>>>and thought, objective and subjective, across all eight
>>>dynamics."
>>
>> So if I got up this morning & picked up my coffee cup, poured
>> some water into it (being at cause over matter), stuck it in
>> the microwave & turned it on, heating it up (being at cause over
>> energy), put a couple spoonfuls of instant cappucino in it,
>> which is nice & thick & frothy, causing the water to expand
>> its dimensions (space), set my watch (time), then looked at
>> the time on my satellite receiver & thought: "no it was
>> correct, I'll set it back" (objective thought), then
>> decided "nah, I want it to be a couple minutes early, that way
>> I'm never late for anything", so I set it forward to where I
>> did prior (subjective thought), then I must be a "OT level 8"!!!
>>
>> Damn, and I've never even attended a Scientology meeting...
>> can I test out or get some kind of discount since I'm already
>> so advanced? :)
>>
>>>I've got business on Rigel 7 now, so I'll talk to you later.
>>
>> Must be those ducklings, huh? Going after them on their home
>> planet, are you?
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Neil
>
>
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