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PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108017]

Fri, 10 January 2014 11:31

Oui_Oui

Messages: 51
Registered: December 2009

Member

All,
I finally got a hold of someone at ID. I think he said his name was Adrian. He said he talked to Mike about 6 months ago. He said he took Mike's request to the president of ID but there is no plan for a PACE free version of 3.0. They are totally out of the Pro Audio software developing business and are on to Defense contracting. He sounded very frustrated with "the industry" when it comes to certain software companies that he named. Adrian said, "The developer that single handedly coded Paris is not coding anything to do with Audio Software anymore because of the his frustrations".
I asked what the next step would be for the Paris forum when it came to updating software etc . His comment was, "we can't just give you our code for Paris but we will not legally pursue anyone that tries to strip the PACE software". I know Mike wanted to get it in writing but they don't want to have anything to do with that either. So now what? Thoughts? Maybe I can call Adrian back and get the "Paris coder's" email.
Thank you
Ron

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108019 is a reply to message #108017]

Fri, 10 January 2014 15:44

Doug Wellington

Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

Senior Member

Oui_Oui wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 12:31

Adrian said, "The developer that single handedly coded Paris is not coding anything to do with Audio Software anymore because of the his frustrations".

That would be Edmund.

Quote:

So now what? Thoughts? Maybe I can call Adrian back and get the "Paris coder's" email.

I'm not sure what that will accomplish. Maybe you could ask Adrian instead what the price would be to purchase the source code...?

http://www.parisfaqs.com

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108020 is a reply to message #108019]

Sat, 11 January 2014 14:28

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

I've already talked to Edumnd (via email) about getting access to PARIS source. He told me that he couldn't provide it because he had continued to develop into something he uses every day. I'm not sure if that is a law enforcement app or a super audio app that he's keeping to himself.

I have another idea, though.

What if we offer to pay for the time it would take for someone at ID go trough their archives and deliver a PACE free version of PARIS 3.0?

If they refuse, I think it would show ill will on their part. We could send out press release to the music press about how they are abusing the DMCA and their former customers. It might also help when applying for an exemption from the DMCA. If we can't come up with the $500 - $1000 it would take in legitimate expenses for ID, then we really can't complain either.

What do you think?

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108021 is a reply to message #108020]

Sun, 12 January 2014 01:36

dnafe

Messages: 390
Registered: February 2009

Senior Member

I'm in for $50 - $100

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108022 is a reply to message #108021]

Sun, 12 January 2014 13:33

Oui_Oui

Messages: 51
Registered: December 2009

Member

I'm in for the same.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108023 is a reply to message #108017]

Sun, 12 January 2014 19:22

casshern

Messages: 17
Registered: March 2012
Location: ohio

Junior Member

I'm in for whatever it takes.
PARIS workflow is driving me insane.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108025 is a reply to message #108017]

Sun, 12 January 2014 21:25

Doug Wellington

Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

Senior Member

There's already a PACE-free version out there for Winders. Or at least there used to be. I was a Mac guy, so I didn't grab a copy of it, but doesn't somebody else here have it? To be perfectly clear, I'm not advocating that we share hacked software; my thought is that whoever has it could submit it to Adrian and have him publish it on the IntDev web site. Wouldn't cost them anything really...

Also, for whatever it's worth, I'll throw two grand into the pot towards the source code. If Edmund uses some kind of revision control (I certainly hope so!) then he could provide a snapshot of the code before it became whatever he uses today...

http://www.parisfaqs.com

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108026 is a reply to message #108025]

Mon, 13 January 2014 05:41

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

Hi Doug,

I made that offer to both Edmund and Adrian, and it was refused without any reason given.

It may be that the optics would be too sever. Imagine: a software company involved in law enforcement has to turn to a hacker utility to save their code from copy protection gone wrong. That could go viral.

I did get the feeling that the company would like very much to do something for us, but Edmund was just refusing to help.

Edmund did give me a copy of PARIS.exe that was supposed to be PACE free, but it relied on a newer build of the graphics dll, and it wouldn't run. He stopped responding to me shortly after that. I suspect that there is no revision control system.

That's all I know.

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108027 is a reply to message #108017]

Mon, 13 January 2014 06:56

casshern

Messages: 17
Registered: March 2012
Location: ohio

Junior Member

So if this is the case, can we just transfer the bounty to you, Mike, and thou can attempt a hardware integration with Reper?

An independent DAW is a bit high reaching, when we have so many beautiful options available.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108028 is a reply to message #108027]

Mon, 13 January 2014 07:46

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

My plan is to replace everything good about the PARIS app with an ASIO driver. I'm trying to crack how the EDS effects are instantiated so I can make a mixer app that works just like the PARIS mixer, only with an asio back end.

That's what I'm shooting for.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108029 is a reply to message #108017]

Mon, 13 January 2014 08:08

casshern

Messages: 17
Registered: March 2012
Location: ohio

Junior Member

I can dig it!
Let us know if you need anything.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108030 is a reply to message #108029]

Mon, 13 January 2014 08:42

Oui_Oui

Messages: 51
Registered: December 2009

Member

I have no idea what Mike just wrote but I know it's good

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108031 is a reply to message #108028]

Mon, 13 January 2014 10:17

Doug Wellington

Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA

Senior Member

mikeaudet wrote on Mon, 13 January 2014 08:46

My plan is to replace everything good about the PARIS app with an ASIO driver. I'm trying to crack how the EDS effects are instantiated so I can make a mixer app that works just like the PARIS mixer, only with an asio back end.

That's the *real* reason I want to see the PARIS source code. Personally, I don't care how they loaded and saved files and did cross-fades inside a channel, I just want to see how the EDS card was really controlled.

I'm not really familiar with ASIO, but I thought it was just for audio...? Does it have functions to connect to the control stream for the EDS card and the C-16? When I was working on the OS X stuff, I was planning to put all the EDS (and MEC, 442, etc) control stuff into an AU plugin that could talk to the control stream. I think making it into an AU (or VST) would be ideal, as you could then use track automation to change level, pan, etc.

I suppose this is really getting off topic; should we move further discussion to the projects area?

http://www.parisfaqs.com

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108082 is a reply to message #108031]

Sun, 02 February 2014 15:28

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

I'm with Doug on this one:
In terms of functionality and work flow, being able to access the Paris FX as a vst plugin right from within the host would be the best if it were possible.
Then being able to sum through the Paris card either through creating buss' or again via a plugin that could be controlled in a similar way to other console emu's where the instances can communicate with each other (i.e. where there are some global controls where appropriate).

I know that this is probably more work and harder to achieve than what you were suggesting Mike - however I think in the long run the benefits might be worth it?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Either way it will be an amazing step forward obviously...and grateful that you are even considering taking on such a challenge.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108202 is a reply to message #108082]

Sat, 10 May 2014 14:05

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

The problem with accessing the DSP in the EDS1000 chips from a VST plugin is that it doesn't really match with how the audio actually flows.

The usual flow of audio is hard disk - > VST plugins - > audio interface.

The EDS1000 cards can handle up to 24 streams of audio at once. 2 streams would be taken up sending the audio in and out, and there would be a bunch of latency doing that. The audio flow would look like this:

hard disk - > VST plugins - > hardware for processing - > back to host - > VST plugins - > hardware.

And, that is only if one EDS effect is on the channel.

I think it would be a lot better to get the ASIO driver working with the existing PARIS mixer layout, and then port whatever effects are most valued to VST so they can be run naively.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108203 is a reply to message #108202]

Sat, 10 May 2014 14:54

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

Thanks for the response Mike.
Yes, I was thinking about this from a user standpoint rather than a technical one; and can understand the challenge that would present.
I guess it would mean using the FX that way would only be useful in mixing and would require latency compensation. For tracking you'd have to use them via the Paris Mixer (as per your approach).

I guess your original concept is 1st base - the idea of potentially porting some of the effects to native VST is fabulous - however it would be great to have the option when mixing.

Anyway, it's very exciting that we're even having this conversation...and very much looking forward to seeing how this develops.

All the best to you meanwhile.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108243 is a reply to message #108202]

Thu, 29 May 2014 17:29

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

One more thought/question:

If you are thinking of re-creating the Paris mixer within this Asio driver, do you also intend that to be able to host native VST/DirectX plugins or would it only host Paris plugins ?

Again just thinking from a work flow point of view, it would be great to have that option.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108244 is a reply to message #108243]

Thu, 29 May 2014 17:44

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

I was thinking the VST effects could be applied in the ASIO host before being sent to the driver.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108245 is a reply to message #108244]

Thu, 29 May 2014 17:54

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

hi Mike,

Thanks for getting back again.
If the Paris plugins have to be accessed within the Asio driver, there may be signal flow as well as work flow considerations:

i.e. you may not be able to recreate how you would have mixed in Paris signal flow-wise.
Imagine you want certain plugins on your mix bus for example...presuming that Paris is handling the summing - then you'd have to be able to host the plugins at least for the mix bus ?

PS I'm sure that this kind of thing implies more work - so I apologize in advance, but I think now is the time to point out design issues that could seriously compromise the usefulness of all that work.

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108246 is a reply to message #108245]

Thu, 29 May 2014 19:14

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

Actually, leaving the vst plugins in the host app would exactly re-create the situation we have with the PARIS app.

VST effects are applied before the audio gets to the EDS1000 card. Once the audio is in there, it's all ESP based effects, no VST at all.

It may be possible to patch an audio stream on the master insert, but it will add a bunch of latency, and I'm not sure if that patch point can accept a stream, or just links to outputs. There's a lot of discovering to do.

All the best!

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108248 is a reply to message #108246]

Fri, 30 May 2014 14:47

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

OK - so the work flow and the signal flow of the Paris app are different.
Would be great to have the option to "mimic" that work flow.

As you say a lot to discover still.

This also makes me wonder if it would be worth simply exploring a kind of bi-directional asio driver between Paris and the host app (Reaper most likely in our case).
Actually I suppose it could just work in one direction.

I have been exploring VST's with routing capabilities to achieve this, but Paris VST implementation doesn't seem to work well enough.

Anyway - just a thought.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 May 2014 14:48]

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108249 is a reply to message #108248]

Fri, 30 May 2014 16:46

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

I'm leaning towards doing a simple, no mixer access ASIO driver first and then working on adding the PARIS mixer capability. I think there are going to be a lot of people who just want to work with the Reaper mixer, or whatever the host is. But, there will also be people, like me, who want to use the EDS effects and near zero latency monitoring and don't care about the workflow implications.

Doing the more simple driver first has the advantage of getting something out that people can use sooner, too.

I've been doing a bit more refactoring over the last few days and getting ready to start working on the control panel.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108250 is a reply to message #108249]

Fri, 30 May 2014 16:58

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

Yes it does make a lot of sense to break it down into stages like that.

Do you think my suggestion of a driver that can actually talk direct to the Paris application is technically possible ?
I presume that would need a modified driver for Paris too - but potentially more gain for less work ?

PS the other good thing about doing it in stages like that, is it gives you more time to think about the design etc - so "modular" approach seems to win hands down! Smile

Smile

OK - I'll stop bothering you and let you get some work done Smile

Smile

Thanks for taking the time to respond etc.

May the force be with you Smile

Smile

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108251 is a reply to message #108250]

Sun, 01 June 2014 08:40

mikeaudet

Messages: 476
Registered: February 2009
Location: Canada

Senior Member

I don't think it would be possible to change the driver such that one could send audio into the PARIS app. I suppose it could be done, but not without breaking something else. And a boatload of code would need to be moved from the PSCL into kernel mode.

I'd like to do that rewrite, but time constraints make it impossible right now. Maybe after the ASIO driver is done, I'll start on the PSCL again and just chip away at it for a few years.

All the best,

Mike

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Re: PARIS PACE free 3.0 [message #108253 is a reply to message #108251]

Sun, 01 June 2014 14:49

justcosmic

Messages: 31
Registered: April 2012
Location: London

Member

Ahh I see - so a lot more work that way.
And I guess it's arguably more useful to put that time into expanding the Asio driver to include the Paris mixer functionality as per your original plan A Cool

Cool

Well, like you say, one step at a time.
You deserve to have a small army of helpers ! Smile

Smile

Thanks so much for entertaining all my questions etc
Very much appreciated, as always.

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