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ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56532]

Tue, 02 August 2005 19:29

Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006

Senior Member

gt;>
>> A band out of state is wanting me to do some drum programming
>> on a song for them (the drummer's not available at this time...
>> Columbian prison or something - you know, typical drummer...
>> JUST KIDDING lol). Anyway, so the guy sends me a CD - audio
>> CD, not wav, even. and i'm supposed to strip out the click on
>> one channel & his rhythm guitar on the other & program a MIDI
>> drum track to match it, but..... (wait for it)
>> it drifts no matter what tempo i use; 81 is perfect for about a
>> minute in, then it starts drifting, 82 starts drifting too fast
>> almost instantly, 80 starts drifting too slow in the same
>> manner; i double it to 162 to get more precise "nudges", but
>> 163 starts drifting too fast & 162 starts drifting too slow -
>> just takes longer to do it. Sorry, can't go up to 324, I tell
>> him, workstation won't go that high LOL He's not on a DAW, so
>> we can't exchange any kind of files directly.
>>
>> I'm gonna have to program it from scratch by ea

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56533 is a reply to message #56532]

Tue, 02 August 2005 21:10

Jamie K

Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006

Senior Member

r at 81 while
>> listening to his rhythm track on a regular CD player - uurgh.
>> Anyway, just griping... anyone else ever deal with this?
>>
>> Neil
>
>"gene lennon" <glennon@NOSPmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>Yup, and here's how I handle it.
>>
>>Pull the wav, split it out to two PAF files.
>>Drop those in Paris. Get a basic tempo, which you have already done.
>>Cut them both in the editor so that the first click starts right at the
>top.
>>Enable Grid.
>>set the tempo to be 8/4, or even 16/4.. you'll get better resolution doing
>
>>it this way.
>>Now, adjust the tempo in the project window until the last click is dead
>on
>>the beat
>>
>>Done.
>>
>>Surely you're editor of choice can do something similar??
>>
>>AA
>>
>>
>That�s fine if the temp is �in between�, but not if the tempo actually drifts.
>Gene
>
>Automatically, Automatically, Automatically, Automatically!

I think Geno's right... it's somewhere "in between", and get
this... the problem is compounded by the fact that his click is
a hi-hat sample run through a digital delay & set to a loop.
CubaseSX will go down to 10th's of a beat on tempo set

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56535 is a reply to message #56532]

Tue, 02 August 2005 20:26

gene lennon
Messages: 565
Registered: July 2006

Senior Member

ne or two of the Emagic M4ti's midi interfaces that they are blowing
out at Guitar Center. Anyone had any experience with these pieces?

Thanks again,
Jon

"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>Jon,
>
>If you are using two computers, then a pair of the cheap Midex dual port
>units should solve your problem. Just hook them up to your USB ports on
each
>machine, set the Midex as your midi output device in the Paris configuration
>window, run midi cable from the midi output of the Midex unit that is
>attached to your Paris rig to the midi input of the Midex unit that is
>attached to your computer running Traktion and set the Midex to be the midi
>input device in the Traktion program and you should be good to go. From
what
>I've heard, the Midex is about as good as it gets for midi sync.......Tank
>wouldn't have done it any other way.
>
>The little puppies are doing fine these days........
>
>Cheers,
>
>;o)
>
>"Jon Jiles" <nospam@dude.com> wrote in message news:42edc418$1@linux...
>>
>> Thanks oh mighty snake eater!
>>
>> Ya know sometimes I wish I didn't love the way Paris sounds so much..
or
>> that they would have gotten the friggin' midi part right.. or that it
>supported
>> VSTi's ... or that it just plain was being updated and supported. All
I
>want
>> to do is write songs and record them well. This nerdy stuff gets
>frustrating.
>>
>> Oh w

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56536 is a reply to message #56532]

Tue, 02 August 2005 20:30

Aaron Allen

Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008

Senior Member

ell, looks like now I'm back to getting lost in kluge-land
>again....guess
>> I'll look into the hardware you suggested. It's still cheaper than
>replacing
>> Paris and nothing else sounds as good (that's affordable anyway).
>>
>> How are the pooches doing by the way!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>> >Jon,
>> >
>> >some thoughts below-
>> >
>> >"Jon Jiles" <nospam@dude.com> wrote in message news:42ed4bfd$1@linux...
>> >>
>> >> After playing around a bit, I decided to buy Mackie's Tracktion 2 and
>> use
>> >> it as a front end to Paris, sort of how some of you seem to be using
>> >Cubase.It's
>> >> really pretty inuitive as a songwriting tool if I can ever get what
I'm
>> >trying
>> >> to do here to work. I'll be using Tracktion 2 mostly as a
>sequencer/VSTi
>> >> host for BFD, etc. to flesh out song ideas and then sum it through
>Paris
>> >> while doing any remaining true audio tracks in Paris.
>> >
>> >With you so far.
>> >>
>> >> I want to use Paris to control Tracktion. I'm using the Frontier Design
>> >Dakota/Sierra
>> >> configuration as the audio/midi card in the Tracktion machine and
>having
>> >> a hell of a time getting Sync to happen properly with my Paris rig.
I
>> >can't
>> >> use the ADAT sync out of Paris v3 in Xp because of the known ADAT
>issu

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56537 is a reply to message #56536]

Tue, 02 August 2005 20:51

gene lennon
Messages: 565
Registered: July 2006

Senior Member

es
>> >> in Paris Xpv3 (you can't even drive a regular ADAT with it)
>> >
>> >The ADAT modules send ADAT timecode in Paris XP, the same as they do
in
>> Win
>> >9x. The Paris SX driver doesn't recognize ADAT machines, but the module
>> >sends timecode just fine.
>> >
>> >I stopped having luck with the Dakota card once I upgraded from Cubase
>v1.6
>> >to v2.0 because I was no longer able to match the buffer settings in
the
>> >Cubase SX application to the buffer settings in the Dakota control panel.
>> My
>> >theory is that for some reason, the Dakota ADAT sync input doesn't allow
>> the
>> >system to lock up properly to incoming Paris ADAT sync if the sync
>settings
>> >can't be matched in the actual audio application and th

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56538 is a reply to message #56536]

Tue, 02 August 2005 20:52

Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005

Senior Member

e Dakota control
>> >panel. No clue why. I don't know about Traktion, but an RME card works
>> >flawlessly with Paris ADAT sync in Cubase SX.
>> >
>> >and it doesn't
>> >> appear that I have any other alternative but to stripe a SMPTE track
in
>> >Paris
>> >> and use that to drive the Sierra/Dakota which converts the SMPTE to
MTC
>> >which
>> >> Tracktion understands. My attempts at this approach are making me want
>> to
>> >> buy an Sm-58, a 4 track Syncassette and a cheesey drum machine!
>> >
>> >Brian T. posted a while back that he was using a pair of Steinberg MidEX
>> >interfaces to lock Paris to Nuendo.This might be the ticket for you.
>> >>
>> >> The Tracktion 2 MTC timecode set-up only has settings of 24, 25 or
30
>> fps
>> >> and no df or nd settings.Still I can get things to sync visually
>(frames
>> >> match in Paris and Tracktion interfaces) but get no audio until I hit
>> stop
>> >> on the C16 and catch the tail of the last note(s) playing in Tracktion.
>> If
>> >> I unlock Tracktion from Paris altogether Tracktion audio plays back
>fine
>> >> through Paris.(Sounds great actually - BFD is a great tool)
>> >
>> >Yep, sounds like som sort of buffer issue you have there.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, any ideas as to what I am doing wrong here or what the problem
>> >might
>> >> be or even another approach I might take? I know I'm not worthy, but
I
>> >almost
>> >> feel deej-like here in terms of my self imposed convolution!
>> >
>> >I heard rumors that he accidentally tripped behind his equipment rack
and
>> >was devoured by snakes.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Any help is greatly appreciated!
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Jon
>> >
>> >If the card don't fit, you must quit.......RME=problem free
>> >
>> >The snake eater.
>> >;o)
>> >
>

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56539 is a reply to message #56537]

Tue, 02 August 2005 21:11

Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006

Senior Member

> >
>>
>
>
>Hey Tone,

I'm using the latest Dakota ASIO driver from Frontier Design on my Tracktion
box.

Cheers,
jj

"tonehouse" <zmcleod@comcast.net> wrote:
>Hi folks..I have Traktion and Cubase and don't know how you are attempting
>any of this..Is it with 2 computers? Is it using ASIO from PARIS or which
>application?...in the dark...
>"Jon Jiles" <nospam@dude.com> wrote in message news:42ed4bfd$1@linux...
>>
>> After playing around a bit, I decided to buy Mackie's Tracktion 2 and
use
>> it as a front end to Paris, sort of how some of you seem to be using
>Cubase.It's
>> really pretty inuitive as a songwriting tool if I can ever get what I'm
>trying
>> to do here to work. I'll be using Tracktion 2 mostly as a sequencer/VSTi
>> host for BFD, etc. to flesh out song ideas and then sum it through Paris
>> while doing any remaining true audio tracks in Paris.
>>
>> I want to use Paris to control Tracktion. I'm using the Frontier Design
>Dakota/Sierra
>> configuration as the audio/midi card in the Tracktion machine and having
>> a hell of a time getting Sync to happen properly with my Paris rig. I
>can't
>> use the ADAT sync out of Paris v3 in Xp because of the known ADAT issues
>> in Paris Xpv3 (you can't even drive a regular ADAT with it) and it doesn't
>> appear that I have any other alternative but to stripe a SMPTE track in
>Paris
>> and use that to drive the Sierra/Dakota which converts the SMPTE to MTC
>which
>> Tracktion understands. My attempts at this approach are making me want
to
>> buy an Sm-58, a 4 track Syncassette and a cheesey drum machine!
>>
>> The Tracktion 2 MTC timecode set-up only h

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56542 is a reply to message #56539]

Tue, 02 August 2005 22:21

JeffH

Messages: 307
Registered: October 2007
Location: Wamic, OR

Senior Member

anner; i double it to 162 to get more precise "nudges", but
>>> 163 starts drifting too fast & 162 starts drifting too slow -
>>> just takes longer to do it. Sorry, can't go up to 324, I tell
>>> him, workstation won't go that high LOL He's not on a DAW, so
>>> we can't exchange any kind of files directly.
>>>
>>> I'm gonna have to program it from scratch by ear at 81 while
>>> listening to his rhythm track on a regular CD player - uurgh.
>>> Anyway, just griping... anyone else ever deal with this?
>>>
>>> Neil
>>
>>
>>>So this would be St. Mattress cathedral?
>
>Now THAT is funny! :D

I�m obviously missing a reference here... I don�t get it...

Cheers,
Kim (the stupid ;o)i would just play them one straight and one "happy" pass and tell them
you don't have time for the second especially if paying is not f[art
of the fun.

i know what you mean about the blame game. one bands financial backer
blamed me for the projects delay when the singer had a 6 week bout
with laryngitis.

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:32:14 -0600, "DJ"
<animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:

>heheheheh!!!!!!!!!.........and right after the *detection* they started
>production of Gaucho.
>
>I still listen to *th' Dan*......a lot. The guitar instrumental on Third
>world Man still gives me a rush.
>
>;o)
>
>"uptown jimmy" <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:42f00fb6$1@linux...
>> Ha! Good stuff. And you can bet that was the least of the stuff they were
>> "detecting" before, during, and after their sessions....
>>
>> Jimmy
>>
>>
>> "Neil" <OIUIOU@OI.com> wrote in message news:42f00456@linux...
>> >
>> > "Mark McDermott" <mark@stateofwail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >I thought that was because they were enjoying the el supremo in the
>room
>> > at
>> > >the top of the stairs.
>> >
>> > No, just detecting it. :D
>>
>>
>Let's just say lunch inspired them !!!

Mark McDermott wrote:
> I thought that was because they were enjoying the el supremo in the room at
> the top of the stairs.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mark
>
> John <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>>S

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56544 is a reply to message #56539]

Tue, 02 August 2005 23:39

Aaron Allen

Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008

Senior Member

al
>>>>Engineering JX2 Switchbone) and various mics set up for upright bass,
>>>>mandolin, guitar, vocals and dobro. All in all there were 9 active
>>>>mics and
>>>>within 2 hours we had the better part of 6 songs in the can.
>>>>
>>>>Then a bunch of their *friends* came by and so it was break time. When
>
>
>>>>they
>>>>got in from the break they were so zoned that we spent the next 3 hours
>>>>trying to get 2 songs properly tracked. Never happened. Sloppy crap that
>>>>they will never be happy with, so their little *break* cost them a fair
>>>>chunk of change. My billing doesn't stop for this, but there was
>>>>*grumbling*
>>>>about it because they weren't happy with how the second half of the
>>>>session
>>>>went.
>>>>
>>>>If I hear any more of this *grumbling* shit tonight, I'm going to
>>>>throw them
>>>>out on their collective asses.
>>>>
>>>>DJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>I mean smoker/drinker or not, you gotta admit that bars just aint the same
without that cloud and it feels like something has been taken away from
life.You're probably really fast at this sort of thing, but me, it'd take hours.
What about hiring a drummer (maybe hitting midi pads or using drumagog???)
A good hitter could nail the track in 1-3 takes. Just a thought.
MR

"Neil" <OIUIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>A band out of state is wanting me to do some drum programming
>on a song for them (the drummer's not available at this time...
>Columbian prison or something - you know, typical drummer...
>JUST KIDDING lol). Anyway, so the guy sends me a CD - audio
>CD, not wav, even. and i'm supposed to strip out the click on
>one channel & his rhythm guitar on the other & program a MIDI
>drum track to match it, but..... (wait for it)
>it drifts no matter what tempo i use; 81 is perfect for about a
>minute in, then it starts drifting, 82 starts drifting too fast
>almost instantly, 80 starts drifting too slow in the same
>manner; i double it to 162 to get more precise "nudges", but
>163 starts drifting too fast & 162 starts drifting too slow -
>just takes longer to do it. So

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56545 is a reply to message #56538]

Tue, 02 August 2005 23:40

Aaron Allen

Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008

Senior Member

rry, can't go up to 324, I tell
>him, workstation won't go that high LOL He's not on a DAW, so
>we can't exchange any kind of files directly.
>
>I'm gonna have to program it from scratch by ear at 81 while
>listening to his rhythm track on a regular CD player - uurgh.
>Anyway, just griping... anyone else ever deal with this?
>
>NeilWent out to eat last night -the place had a bar. Put on the same pants this
morning and for a moment thought: "whoa boy those pants 'll smell." At the
conclusion of this mini brain fart I remembered the place was smoke free.
However, if I do need a little hit of nostalgia, I pull out my old six
string (played in many a smoke filled bar in the 70's and 80's) stick my
nose in the sound hole and inhale. And yes, midst the momentary whiff of
stale smoke, I recall thrity or so people on their backs in a puddle of beer
on the floor, doing a kind of reptillian hokey pokey...
MR :)

"justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>I mean smoker/drinker or not, you gotta admit that bars just aint the same
>without that cloud and it feels like something has been taken away from

>life.
>
>
>
>
>As a reformed smoker, I couldn't be happier about it. That's the main reasons
I quit playing clubs a few years back. Was killing me. Of course here in
good old NC, it'll be a cold day in hell before we'll have smokefree bars.

"justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
>I mean smoker/drinker or not, you gotta admit that bars just aint the same
>without that cloud and it feels like something has been taken away from

>life.
>
>
>
>
>I know this is gonna sound stupid, but have you ever thought of just
"playing" the drums rather than programing them? I'm assuming that you have
a midi capable keyboard or some other triggering device. A very good friend
of mine would literally play a DMT-8 like a drummer would, and we would
record the kick, snare, and toms in one pass, then the cymbals in another.
Once he recorded everthing, I would go into Cubase (what we were running at
the time) and manually correct the hits that were too noticebly out of time
to leave. I would try to set the tempo to double what it was (similar to
you moving up to 162), that way I had an easier time moving the midi notes
around. You really got a live or real drummer feel by doing this.

It actually went much faster this way, then when I tried to program drums
myself.

Just an idea, if you really get stuck! :)

Stephen

We
"Neil" <OIUIU@OIU.

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56550 is a reply to message #56532]

Wed, 03 August 2005 05:12

emarenot
Messages: 345
Registered: June 2005

Senior Member

lol). Anyway, so the guy sends me a CD - audio
> CD, not wav, even. and i'm supposed to strip out the click on
> one channel & his rhythm guitar on the other & program a MIDI
> drum track to match it, but..... (wait for it)
> it drifts no matter what tempo i use; 81 is perfect for about a
> minute in, then it starts drifting, 82 starts drifting too fast
> almost instantly, 80 starts drifting too slow in the same
> manner; i double it to 162 to get more precise "nudges", but
> 163 starts drifting too fast & 162 starts drifting too slow -
> just takes longer to do it. Sorry, can't go up to 324, I tell
> him, workstation won't go that high LOL He's not on a DAW, so
> we can't exchange any kind of files directly.
>
> I'm gonna have to program it from scratch by ear at 81 while
> listening to his rhythm track on a regular CD player - uurgh.
> Anyway, just griping... anyone else ever deal with this?
>
> NeilYeah, I've got an "ahem" as well. Deej......

So Mike, what I want to do is clock a 3-MEC system from a Lucid clock via
BNC. Will the Rumour pick up the clcok signal via SPDIF from an MEC? And I
guess if it will do that it will pick the signal up with a Digipatch in the
way as well...I'm adding a Mangler soon....

Thanks!
Jimmy

"Mike Claytor" <claytor@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:42f01da4$

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56553 is a reply to message #56532]

Wed, 03 August 2005 06:33

Stephen Stecyk

Messages: 35
Registered: February 2007

Member

t; <pn@nc.com> wrote in message news:42f0c2e0$1@linux...
>
> As a reformed smoker, I couldn't be happier about it. That's the main
reasons
> I quit playing clubs a few years back. Was killing me. Of course here in
> good old NC, it'll be a cold day in hell before we'll have smokefree bars.
>
> "justcron" <justcron@hydrorecords.compound> wrote:
> >I mean smoker/drinker or not, you gotta admit that bars just aint the
same
> >without that cloud and it feels like something has been taken away from
>
> >life.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>yep and it works quite well

EK Sound wrote:
> Cubase/Nuendo has a feature where you can set the bar markers to the
> actual audio, thereby allowing the sequencing and subsequent quantizing
> of midi events to the aforementioned audio. :-)
>
> David.
>
> Neil wrote:
>
>> A band out of state is wanting me to do some drum programming
>> on a song for them (the drummer's not available at this time...
>> Columbian prison or something - you know, typical drummer...
>> JUST KIDDING lol). Anyway, so the guy sends me a CD - audio
>> CD, not wav, even. and i'm supposed to strip out the click on
>> one channel & his rhythm guitar on the other & program a MIDI
>> drum track to match it, but..... (wait for it)
>> it drifts no matter what tempo i use; 81 is perfect for about a
>> minute in, then it starts drifting, 82 starts drifting too fast
>> almost instantly, 80 starts drifting too slow in the same
>> manner; i double it to 162 to get more precise "nudges", but
>> 163 starts drifting too fast & 162 starts drifting too slow -
>> just takes longer to do it. Sorry, can't go up to 324, I tell
>> him, workstation won't go that high LOL He's not on a DAW, so
>> we can't exchange any kind of files directly.
>>
>> I'm gonna have to program it from scratch by ear at 81 while
>> listening to his rh

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56554 is a reply to message #56532]

Wed, 03 August 2005 06:45

Chris Ludwig

Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006

Senior Member

ythm track on a regular CD player - uurgh.
>> Anyway, just griping... anyone else ever deal with this?
>> Neil

--
Chris Ludwig

ADK Pro Audio
(859) 635-5762
www.adkproaudio.com
chrisl@adkproaudio.comGood thing, too.

Here in Colorado some cities have made the change and some still haven't.

It's a joy to play a gig in a non-smoking establishment.

It's a real drag to play in the thick, stale atmosphere of constant
suspended carcinogenic particulates. And decontaminate after the gig.
Smoke gets into everything, clothes, hair, gear.

If you want to talk about "taking away from life," nic sticks kill more
people than the next three or four top categories combined. Smoking is
the number one killer by a long shot. I can't be too awfully nostalgic
about that.

It'd be like missing the sound of gunfire during gigs: "remember when
you could shoot yer shotgun whenever and wherever you wanted in bars,
man I miss those days."

Cigs are incredibly addictive, I have friends who try and try and cannot
break free. Banning smoking inside bars/restaurants hasn't helped them
stop. They find many opportunities to poison themselves. But at least in
some places they aren't allowed to poison everyone around them at the
same time.

If you smoke and have kids, whatever you do don't smoke around the kids.
And if you need incentive to quit, think about whether you want to be
around for your kids as they grow up.

Cigs are the perfect product, try them for a bit and you can't stop.
What a marketing opportunity! Except for the lung damage, cancer and
early death part. Customers die off, but no problem, it's easy to
recruit new ones.

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56557 is a reply to message #56532]

Wed, 03 August 2005 08:09

EK Sound

Messages: 939
Registered: June 2005

Senior Member

an external clock source, set the Rumour's digital clock
parameter
> > to "External" and it gets it's sync over the SPDIF from the external
> device.
> > The Digital Lock LED will light up solid when it syncs. If it flashes,
> it's
> > not sync'd
> >
> > Highest it will do is 48k 24bit
> >
> > I'd use it's SPDIF I/O, but my digital out on the Mec feeds my DAC-1.
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> >
> > What we need is a good AES/EBU box.(ahem) ;0)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > "uptown jimmy" <johnson314@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >Mike,
> > >
> > >Deej says you're clocking a Rumour along with your Paris rig. I have
some
> > >specific questions about that, if you don't mind emailing me. Or, we
can
> > >handle it here.
> > >
> > >Thanks!
> > >Jimmy
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>Jon Jiles wrote:

> doing anyway. I'm thinking about picking up an Emu 1212m

In the words of Anakin Skywalker
NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't waste he money. If you don't need all the I/O but want the
performance

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Re: ARRRGH! Incompatibility sucks (O.T. post) [message #56560 is a reply to message #56557]

Wed, 03 August 2005 09:06

Chris Ludwig

Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006

Senior Member

/> > If you smoke and have kids, whatever you do don't smoke around the kids.
> And if you need incentive to quit, think about whether you want to be
> around for your kids as they grow up.
>
> Cigs are the perfect product, try them for a bit and you can't stop. What
> a marketing opportunity! Except for the lung damage, cancer and early
> death part. Customers die off, but no problem, it's easy to recruit new
> ones.
>
> Thanks but no thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie K
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> justcron wrote:
>> I mean smoker/drinker or not, you gotta admit that bars just aint the
>> same
>> without that cloud and it feels like something has been taken away from
>> life.
>>
>>
>>
>>OK then, perhaps you will get lucky at the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual
Motion?

;o)

"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:42f08394$1@linux...
>
> >>So this would be St. Mattress cathedral?
> >
> >Now THAT is funny! :D
>
> I�m obviously missing a reference here... I don�t get it...
>
> Cheers,
> Kim (the stupid ;o)I always figured, if you dont want to smell like smoke... dont go to the
bar...

no need to try to take it over.

bars aren't supposed to be ethical.. its a frikkin bar.

have you noticed how many people dont even go to the bar anymore...

less drinkers... less tippers... less live music... pub e

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