Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug.
| Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 20:10  |
emarenot
Messages: 345
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C81A5F.504B8140
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week ago I
pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass
at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I
figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write another song. Not ever. I
will die first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along comes a
tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line and
chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no great witer,
but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening to a few
times.
It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly believe, as
in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to craft another
song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the
studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody
else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on
the process. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
MR
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C81A5F.504B8140
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
piece. Almost=20
there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried=20
writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and in =
the=20
wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
I'll=20
never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
comes a=20
tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line =
and=20
chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
great=20
witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening =
to a=20
few times. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
often this=20
way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
revival stuff,=20
that I will not be able to craft another song. It's freakin'=20
goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
window,=20
or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
through=20
this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C81A5F.504B8140--
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92127 is a reply to message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 19:53  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I go through it... all you can do is wait for inspiration.
(at least that's all that works for me - sure, I can always
force something out, but it's rarely good when i do that).
Sometimes when "it" hits, you find a transition, sometimes more
like a whole bridge section or that entire bass line you were
looking for or whatever.
I don't let it bother me too much anymore - doesn't mean it's
not frustrating, but don't let it eat you alive. I've got a
song right now that I can't find the right transition passage
for... it'll show up when it's ready; in the meantime:
ARRRRRGH! lol
Neil
"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week ago
I
>pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like fishing for
bass
>at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I
>figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write another song. Not ever. I
>will die first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along comes
a
>tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line and
>chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no great witer,
>but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening to a few
>times.
> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly believe,
as
>in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to craft another
>song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the
>studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody
>else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting
on
>the process. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
>MR
>
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
>piece. Almost=20
>there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried=20
>writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and in =
>the=20
>wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
>I'll=20
>never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
>first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
>comes a=20
>tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line =
>and=20
>chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
>great=20
>witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening
=
>to a=20
>few times. </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
>often this=20
>way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
>revival stuff,=20
>that I will not be able to craft another song. It's freakin'=20
>goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
>window,=20
>or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
>through=20
>this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
>process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92128 is a reply to message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 19:56 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
We've all been there...
People often, in things like love and art (are they different?) make assessments
in the same way they might make financial decisions, despite it being a different
world. Shows how much today's population is stuck in a method of thought.
We'll fail at writing a song, or fail in a relationship, and come out going
"OMG! It's never going to happen again! I've already reached the peak, and
now it's over! What am I to do?".
And yet love and art have never ever come on demand. You can buy a new IPod
whenever you like. You can't just go "Mmm, ok, this Saturday I'm going to
have eggs for breakfast, wash the dishes, pop down the street for some milk
around 11am, then around 12:30 I'll fall in love, write a hit song about
4pm, and should be back by 5:30 to shower and go to the party tonight". And
yet people build themselves up for a song or love at a certain moment, and
then come away annoyed because it didn't happen. We know it doesn't work
like this, but because we spend more time buying IPods than falling in love
in this world, we expect everything to work like that.
Love and art are creations of the inner flow of the mind's emotions... they
stem from emotions, not intellect. They are not controlled by our conscious/intelligent
mind. They feed it. The intelligent mind is actually far more effective at
BLOCKING love and creativity than it is at creating it. Indeed I would argue
it cannot ever create it, but often blocks it.
Point being that you actually already know that you can't write songs on
demand. You allude to it in your email. No point getting upset about it.
Just let it flow when it flows, and when it doesn't do something else.
Personally I have recently taken up a few other art forms, because I find
that while I love music and always will, often I have things to say and express
which don't flow in a song, or I will simply be "bored of chords" or whatever.
Let all creativity flow, rather than going "Gee I'm annoyed because right
now I feel like painting but I INSIST on writing a song instead because I'm
a songwriter damnit!". ;o)
Sometimes it's good to do what you want, not what you decided. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week ago
I
>pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like fishing for
bass
>at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I
>figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write another song. Not ever. I
>will die first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along comes
a
>tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line and
>chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no great witer,
>but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening to a few
>times.
> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly believe,
as
>in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to craft another
>song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the
>studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody
>else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting
on
>the process. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
>MR
>
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
>piece. Almost=20
>there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried=20
>writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and in =
>the=20
>wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
>I'll=20
>never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
>first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
>comes a=20
>tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody line =
>and=20
>chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
>great=20
>witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth listening
=
>to a=20
>few times. </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
>often this=20
>way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
>revival stuff,=20
>that I will not be able to craft another song. It's freakin'=20
>goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
>window,=20
>or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
>through=20
>this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
>process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92129 is a reply to message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 19:47 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out the
window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with an
apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when I
get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might be
good.
That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
Mike R. wrote:
> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the
> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
> into something worth listening to a few times.
> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to
> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
> anyone?
> MR
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92130 is a reply to message #92129] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 21:30 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
different or some combination of that, but I don't think
just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
to find you more than you finding it.
So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
Neil
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>
>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>
>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out the
>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>
>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with an
>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>
>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when I
>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>
>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might be
>good.
>
>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>
>
>
>Mike R. wrote:
>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the
>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to
>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>> anyone?
>> MR
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92131 is a reply to message #92130] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 21:44 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Neil,
I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. ;o) Well, actually, I'm going
to suggest that you, in fact, disagree with yourself. ;o)
"The point is to try & find the PERFECT part that fits"
I have issues here with the word "try" in that I think you mean to consciously
intellectually try. I think that real high quality music flows. You can't
push it. The more you push, the more you use formulas, known patterns, etc.
This basically removes the soul. Patterns are important to know, especially
in learning, but a really really good musician has the patterns burned into
their subconscious in such a way that they no longer consciously use them.
They simply allow their emotions to flow through a pre-built matrix of musical
knowledge and come out on the instrument. Am I making any sense?
"don't force the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for
the part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!"
"Don't force" is the magic idea here. To me "try" clashes with "don't force".
I think given art is about expression of emotions, words like "try" "force"
and even "find" kinda clash with it, because they are conscious processes.
I think we may be on a similar page and perhaps I'm just focussing on the
semantics of the wording, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyhow. ;o)
....it's a slow day at work. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Neil" <IOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
>lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
>
>I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
>back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
>different or some combination of that, but I don't think
>just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
>that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
>That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
>find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
>to find you more than you finding it.
>
>So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
>something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
>stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
>the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
>part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
>
>
>Neil
>
>
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
>
>> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
>
>>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>>
>>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>>
>>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out the
>
>>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>>
>>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with an
>
>>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>>
>>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when I
>>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>>
>>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might be
>
>>good.
>>
>>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>
>>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
>>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike R. wrote:
>>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
>
>>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on
the
>
>>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
>
>>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>
>>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able
to
>
>>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
>
>>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
>>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
>
>>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>>> anyone?
>>> MR
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92135 is a reply to message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 21:21 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81A71.B52C38E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:472675f4@linux...
I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week =
ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like =
fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake =
--got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write =
another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again =
yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the =
lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle =
eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature =
into something worth listening to a few times. =20
It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly =
believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to =
craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar =
and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm =
crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues =
here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for =
anyone? =20
MR
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81A71.B52C38E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Mike R." <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:emarenot@yahoo.com">emarenot@yahoo.com</A>> wrote in =
message=20
<A href=3D"news:472675f4@linux">news:472675f4@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
piece. =20
Almost there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic =
and tried=20
writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and =
in the=20
wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
I'll=20
never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
comes a=20
tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody =
line and=20
chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
great=20
witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth =
listening to a=20
few times. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
often this=20
way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
revival=20
stuff, that I will not be able to craft another song. It's =
freakin'=20
goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
window,=20
or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
through=20
this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81A71.B52C38E0--
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92136 is a reply to message #92131] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 22:39 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ok, so, let's postulate - should I have used the
word "endeavour" instead of "try"? The former suggests a more
adventurous, deeper attempt, and maybe you interpret the latter
as more strictly that of "effort alone"?
Anyway, when I say "try" I did mean to go back, give it a shot,
see what happens... when I do this, sometimes I work at it for
five minutes, and sometime I work at for several hours (as was
the case with the weekend before I had to go in for that finger
surgery, hoping I'd nail something down before I wasn't able
to use that hand in playing for a couple months - no dice).
I guess to me, music is probably the most spiritual thing I do
or experience, and i feel like music doesn't necessarily
come "from" me, but more or less flows "through" me (OK,
sometimes it's both, but mostly the 2nd thing), and the ideas
are all out there floating in the universe, I just have to reach
out & "grab" them and act as the conduit. You have to be in the
right state of mind & body in order to do this, though -
sometimes you can get there & sometimes you can't. OK, so maybe
some of you think this is bullsh*t, but this is my "string
theory of music" lol
So, maybe "try" isn't the right word, or maybe it is - I think
if I were to redefine it based on what you said you understood
it to mean to you, I might say: "search" or "endeavor",
or "explore"... but to me there also has to be a bit more
effort to it that just "leaving yourself open to it"... so
what's the word in the balance? What's the word that's the
mid-ground between "try" & "leaving yourself open to it"???
Neil
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Neil,
>
>I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. ;o) Well, actually, I'm going
>to suggest that you, in fact, disagree with yourself. ;o)
>
>"The point is to try & find the PERFECT part that fits"
>
>I have issues here with the word "try" in that I think you mean to consciously
>intellectually try. I think that real high quality music flows. You can't
>push it. The more you push, the more you use formulas, known patterns, etc.
>This basically removes the soul. Patterns are important to know, especially
>in learning, but a really really good musician has the patterns burned into
>their subconscious in such a way that they no longer consciously use them.
>They simply allow their emotions to flow through a pre-built matrix of musical
>knowledge and come out on the instrument. Am I making any sense?
>
>"don't force the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for
>the part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!"
>
>"Don't force" is the magic idea here. To me "try" clashes with "don't force".
>I think given art is about expression of emotions, words like "try" "force"
>and even "find" kinda clash with it, because they are conscious processes.
>
>I think we may be on a similar page and perhaps I'm just focussing on the
>semantics of the wording, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyhow. ;o)
>
>...it's a slow day at work. ;o)
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
>
>
>
>"Neil" <IOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
>>lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
>>
>>I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
>>back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
>>different or some combination of that, but I don't think
>>just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
>>that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
>>That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
>>find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
>>to find you more than you finding it.
>>
>>So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
>>something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
>>stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
>>the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
>>part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
>>
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>
>>
>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
>>
>>> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
>>
>>>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>>>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>>>
>>>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>>>
>>>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out the
>>
>>>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>>>
>>>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with
an
>>
>>>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>>>
>>>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when I
>>>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>
>>>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>>>
>>>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>>>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might
be
>>
>>>good.
>>>
>>>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>>
>>>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>>>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
>
>>>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>>>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mike R. wrote:
>>>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>>>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>>>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>
>>>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>>>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
>>
>>>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on
>the
>>
>>>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
>>
>>>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>>
>>>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>>>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>>>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able
>to
>>
>>>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
>>
>>>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
>
>>>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
>>
>>>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>>>> anyone?
>>>> MR
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92138 is a reply to message #92125] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 21:51 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C81A75.D58247C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I sent another empty reply!=20
OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . . I was about to say . . .
I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I almost never try =
to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) being "try." I just =
don't think effort and creativity go well together. I know it sounds =
corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best to just sit down =
and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music that is =
truly you come out.
Sometimes it's that moment when you jam out something and go "Whoa . . . =
what was that again . . . ?" And that becomes the seed from which the =
rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll just start playing a new =
song pretty much in its entirety as though my "guardian angel" has taken =
over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't get a whole song, just a =
riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord progression. I just add it to the =
pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together from two or three =
partial bits.
For me, none of this happens until I've been jamming mindlessly and =
unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, preferably in the wee hours.
There are some exceptions, like the time I dreamt a whole song and had =
to leap out of bed and play it. It was all there, I just had to add two =
lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That song is "Underneath It =
All" on the Wayward CD.
I have had that sensation you describe that I'll never be able to write =
any more songs, but I first started feeling that way at about age 19, =
and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe even hundreds.
Just relax and make some noise and let it happen. Pardon the crude =
analogy, but I think trying to write is a bit like "trying" to have an =
orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and letting it happen. :)
S
"Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:472675f4@linux...
I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week =
ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like =
fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake =
--got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write =
another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again =
yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the =
lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle =
eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature =
into something worth listening to a few times. =20
It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly =
believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to =
craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar =
and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm =
crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues =
here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for =
anyone? =20
MR
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C81A75.D58247C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I =
sent another=20
empty reply! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . =
.. I was=20
about to say . . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't know if this will be of any =
help at all,=20
but I almost never try to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) =
being=20
"try." I just don't think effort and creativity go well =
together. I=20
know it sounds corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best =
to just=20
sit down and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music =
that is=20
truly you come out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam =
out=20
something and go "Whoa . . . what was that again . . . ?" And that =
becomes the=20
seed from which the rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll =
just=20
start playing a new song pretty much in its entirety as though my =
"guardian=20
angel" has taken over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't =
get a=20
whole song, just a riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord =
progression. I just=20
add it to the pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together =
from two=20
or three partial bits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For me, none of this happens until I've =
been=20
jamming mindlessly and unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, =
preferably in=20
the wee hours.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are some exceptions, like the =
time I dreamt a=20
whole song and had to leap out of bed and play it. It was all =
there, I=20
just had to add two lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That =
song is=20
"Underneath It All" on the Wayward CD.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have had that sensation you describe =
that I'll=20
never be able to write any more songs, but I first started feeling that =
way at=20
about age 19, and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe =
even=20
hundreds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just relax and make some noise and let =
it=20
happen. Pardon the crude analogy, but I think trying to write is a =
bit=20
like "trying" to have an orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and =
letting=20
it happen. :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Mike R." <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:emarenot@yahoo.com">emarenot@yahoo.com</A>> wrote in =
message=20
<A href=3D"news:472675f4@linux">news:472675f4@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
piece. =20
Almost there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic =
and tried=20
writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and =
in the=20
wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
I'll=20
never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
comes a=20
tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody =
line and=20
chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
great=20
witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth =
listening to a=20
few times. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
often this=20
way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
revival=20
stuff, that I will not be able to craft another song. It's =
freakin'=20
goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
window,=20
or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
through=20
this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C81A75.D58247C0--
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92139 is a reply to message #92136] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 23:06 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeh, I think we're on the same page. Your middle paragraph pretty much sounds
like my experience of it. You express it as feeling like stuff flows from
the universe and out through you, and hence you are a conduit for the flow
from elsewhere. I currently tend to think that rather than "the universe"
being the source, your subconscious, or moreso your sub-subconscious...
your "lizard brain" if you like, is kinda the source, but the general concept
and state of mind is the same.
And of course it is the nature of "flow" that you allow it, rather than causing
it. You might need to learn to become a tap, but once you are one, you don't
force water through yourself, you just release the pressure. :o)
I probably prattled on a little too much about language semantics in my last
post. No need to do so again. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>Ok, so, let's postulate - should I have used the
>word "endeavour" instead of "try"? The former suggests a more
>adventurous, deeper attempt, and maybe you interpret the latter
>as more strictly that of "effort alone"?
>
>Anyway, when I say "try" I did mean to go back, give it a shot,
>see what happens... when I do this, sometimes I work at it for
>five minutes, and sometime I work at for several hours (as was
>the case with the weekend before I had to go in for that finger
>surgery, hoping I'd nail something down before I wasn't able
>to use that hand in playing for a couple months - no dice).
>I guess to me, music is probably the most spiritual thing I do
>or experience, and i feel like music doesn't necessarily
>come "from" me, but more or less flows "through" me (OK,
>sometimes it's both, but mostly the 2nd thing), and the ideas
>are all out there floating in the universe, I just have to reach
>out & "grab" them and act as the conduit. You have to be in the
>right state of mind & body in order to do this, though -
>sometimes you can get there & sometimes you can't. OK, so maybe
>some of you think this is bullsh*t, but this is my "string
>theory of music" lol
>
>So, maybe "try" isn't the right word, or maybe it is - I think
>if I were to redefine it based on what you said you understood
>it to mean to you, I might say: "search" or "endeavor",
>or "explore"... but to me there also has to be a bit more
>effort to it that just "leaving yourself open to it"... so
>what's the word in the balance? What's the word that's the
>mid-ground between "try" & "leaving yourself open to it"???
>
>Neil
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Neil,
>>
>>I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. ;o) Well, actually, I'm
going
>>to suggest that you, in fact, disagree with yourself. ;o)
>>
>>"The point is to try & find the PERFECT part that fits"
>>
>>I have issues here with the word "try" in that I think you mean to consciously
>>intellectually try. I think that real high quality music flows. You can't
>>push it. The more you push, the more you use formulas, known patterns,
etc.
>>This basically removes the soul. Patterns are important to know, especially
>>in learning, but a really really good musician has the patterns burned
into
>>their subconscious in such a way that they no longer consciously use them.
>>They simply allow their emotions to flow through a pre-built matrix of
musical
>>knowledge and come out on the instrument. Am I making any sense?
>>
>>"don't force the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for
>>the part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!"
>>
>>"Don't force" is the magic idea here. To me "try" clashes with "don't force".
>>I think given art is about expression of emotions, words like "try" "force"
>>and even "find" kinda clash with it, because they are conscious processes.
>>
>>I think we may be on a similar page and perhaps I'm just focussing on the
>>semantics of the wording, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyhow.
;o)
>>
>>...it's a slow day at work. ;o)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Kim.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <IOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
>>>lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
>>>
>>>I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
>>>back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
>>>different or some combination of that, but I don't think
>>>just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
>>>that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
>>>That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
>>>find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
>>>to find you more than you finding it.
>>>
>>>So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
>>>something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
>>>stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
>>>the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
>>>part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
>>>
>>>
>>>Neil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
>>>
>>>> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
>>>
>>>>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>
>>>>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>>>>
>>>>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>>>>
>>>>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out the
>>>
>>>>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>>>>
>>>>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with
>an
>>>
>>>>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>>>>
>>>>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when I
>
>>>>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>>
>>>>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>>>>
>>>>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>>>>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might
>be
>>>
>>>>good.
>>>>
>>>>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>>>
>>>>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>>>>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
>>
>>>>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>
>>>>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mike R. wrote:
>>>>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>
>>>>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>>>>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>>
>>>>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>>>>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
>>>
>>>>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on
>>the
>>>
>>>>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
>>>
>>>>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>>>
>>>>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>>>>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>>>>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able
>>to
>>>
>>>>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
>>>
>>>>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
>>
>>>>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
>>>
>>>>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>
>>>>> anyone?
>>>>> MR
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92140 is a reply to message #92138] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 23:13 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I love these kind of conversations - i think you can learn so
much from these.
Anyway, Miss Sarah, I think if you read my prior response to
Kimmers, you'll find I'm somewhere between you & Bill - well,
maybe on the far apex of the same triangle, anyway - wherein
Bill is of the mind that if you just work at it & hammer it out,
it'll come, and you are of the polar opposite to him, wherein
you feel that if you just "let it flow", it'll happen. I feel
there has to be a combination of that in that I DO feel that
the music is all "out there" floating around, as it were, but
the effort has to be put forth to reach out & grab it....
there's a certain "zone" in any endeavor, and in music, it's
the combination of being open to it and letting it flow, and
also putting forth the effort to articulate it & "grab" the
right stuff. THAT'S when the best stuff comes out/comes
through... when you're in the zone mentally/spiritually, AND
when you're making the attempt to harness it just right.
There's a million-bazillion things that COULD fit - it's up to
you to find the perfect thing that DOES fit.
I'm not really going there wuith your orgasm analogy, but if
you think about it, a similar argument could be made lol!
Neil
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>
>
>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I sent another empty reply!=20
>
>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . . I was about to say . . .
>
>I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I almost never try
=
>to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) being "try." I just =
>don't think effort and creativity go well together. I know it sounds =
>corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best to just sit down
=
>and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music that is =
>truly you come out.
>
>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam out something and go "Whoa . . .
=
>what was that again . . . ?" And that becomes the seed from which the =
>rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll just start playing a new
=
>song pretty much in its entirety as though my "guardian angel" has taken
=
>over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't get a whole song, just a
=
>riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord progression. I just add it to the =
>pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together from two or three =
>partial bits.
>
>For me, none of this happens until I've been jamming mindlessly and =
>unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, preferably in the wee hours.
>
>There are some exceptions, like the time I dreamt a whole song and had =
>to leap out of bed and play it. It was all there, I just had to add two
=
>lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That song is "Underneath It
=
>All" on the Wayward CD.
>
>I have had that sensation you describe that I'll never be able to write
=
>any more songs, but I first started feeling that way at about age 19, =
>and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe even hundreds.
>
>Just relax and make some noise and let it happen. Pardon the crude =
>analogy, but I think trying to write is a bit like "trying" to have an =
>orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and letting it happen. :)
>
>S
>
>
> "Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:472675f4@linux...
> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week =
>ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like =
>fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake =
>--got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write =
>another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
=
>yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the
=
>lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
=
>eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature =
>into something worth listening to a few times. =20
> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly =
>believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to
=
>craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
=
>and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm =
>crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
=
>here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for =
>anyone? =20
> MR
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I =
>sent another=20
>empty reply! </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . =
>. I was=20
>about to say . . .</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't know if this will be of any =
>help at all,=20
>but I almost never try to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested)
=
>being=20
>"try." I just don't think effort and creativity go well =
>together. I=20
>know it sounds corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best =
>to just=20
>sit down and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music =
>that is=20
>truly you come out.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam
=
>out=20
>something and go "Whoa . . . what was that again . . . ?" And that =
>becomes the=20
>seed from which the rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll =
>just=20
>start playing a new song pretty much in its entirety as though my =
>"guardian=20
>angel" has taken over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't =
>get a=20
>whole song, just a riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord =
>progression. I just=20
>add it to the pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together =
>from two=20
>or three partial bits.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For me, none of this happens until I've
=
>been=20
>jamming mindlessly and unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, =
>preferably in=20
>the wee hours.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are some exceptions, like the =
>time I dreamt a=20
>whole song and had to leap out of bed and play it. It was all =
>there, I=20
>just had to add two lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That =
>song is=20
>"Underneath It All" on the Wayward CD.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have had that sensation you describe
=
>that I'll=20
>never be able to write any more songs, but I first started feeling that
=
>way at=20
>about age 19, and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe =
>even=20
>hundreds.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just relax and make some noise and let
=
>it=20
>happen. Pardon the crude analogy, but I think trying to write is a =
>bit=20
>like "trying" to have an orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and
=
>letting=20
>it happen. :)</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"Mike R." <<A=20
> href=3D"mailto:emarenot@yahoo.com">emarenot@yahoo.com</A>> wrote in =
>message=20
> <A href=3D"news:472675f4@linux">news:472675f4@linux</A>...</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
>piece. =20
> Almost there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic =
>and tried=20
> writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and =
>in the=20
> wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
>I'll=20
> never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
> first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
>comes a=20
> tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody =
>line and=20
> chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
>great=20
> witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth =
>listening to a=20
> few times. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
>often this=20
> way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
>revival=20
> stuff, that I will not be able to craft another song. It's =
>freakin'=20
> goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
>window,=20
> or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
>through=20
> this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
> process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? =
></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92142 is a reply to message #92139] |
Mon, 29 October 2007 23:44 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeah, but I think it's at a higher level than your "lizard
brain", because all that really does is supply the most basic
of functions & instincts - sustainability of life (breathing,
for example) fight or flight, etc, etc... also, if it were at
that low of a level, we'd be able to tap into it all the time,
at will, because that part of the brain never stops working...
but we can't, can we? Nope, it's at a higher level, and THAT'S
why we feel it as a more spiritual thing - that's why it moves
us. It's active in a part of the brain that we don't use all
the time, or is latent in most capacities - that's what I think
anyway... all the experts that say "well, we only use ten
percent of out brain, etc, etc" - maybe we do, normally, but
have they ever actively tested this theory on someone like Dave
Brubeck while he was composing a new piece of music?
Never thought of that one, didya? ;)
I think this is the same place in which scientific breakthroughs
occur; that finding "the zone" in a certain sport like Tom
Brady does with regard to his passing accuracy happens... it's
the same place that Alan Holdsworth found "his" tone, the same
place that Ulrich Roth found his "sky guitar", the same place
that somehow everyone who worked on "Aja" seemed to get to all
at the same time (see, you knew I'd had to reference that one
again, huh? lol). Anyway, this is just my laymans' theory, but
it's obviously not something that happens every day to
everyone, so I think there's some validity to it.
Being open to it, PLUS the effort applied, is what allows it to
happen.
Neil
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Yeh, I think we're on the same page. Your middle paragraph pretty much sounds
>like my experience of it. You express it as feeling like stuff flows from
>the universe and out through you, and hence you are a conduit for the flow
>from elsewhere. I currently tend to think that rather than "the universe"
>being the source, your subconscious, or moreso your sub-subconscious...
>your "lizard brain" if you like, is kinda the source, but the general concept
>and state of mind is the same.
>
>And of course it is the nature of "flow" that you allow it, rather than
causing
>it. You might need to learn to become a tap, but once you are one, you don't
>force water through yourself, you just release the pressure. :o)
>
>I probably prattled on a little too much about language semantics in my
last
>post. No need to do so again. ;o)
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>Ok, so, let's postulate - should I have used the
>>word "endeavour" instead of "try"? The former suggests a more
>>adventurous, deeper attempt, and maybe you interpret the latter
>>as more strictly that of "effort alone"?
>>
>>Anyway, when I say "try" I did mean to go back, give it a shot,
>>see what happens... when I do this, sometimes I work at it for
>>five minutes, and sometime I work at for several hours (as was
>>the case with the weekend before I had to go in for that finger
>>surgery, hoping I'd nail something down before I wasn't able
>>to use that hand in playing for a couple months - no dice).
>>I guess to me, music is probably the most spiritual thing I do
>>or experience, and i feel like music doesn't necessarily
>>come "from" me, but more or less flows "through" me (OK,
>>sometimes it's both, but mostly the 2nd thing), and the ideas
>>are all out there floating in the universe, I just have to reach
>>out & "grab" them and act as the conduit. You have to be in the
>>right state of mind & body in order to do this, though -
>>sometimes you can get there & sometimes you can't. OK, so maybe
>>some of you think this is bullsh*t, but this is my "string
>>theory of music" lol
>>
>>So, maybe "try" isn't the right word, or maybe it is - I think
>>if I were to redefine it based on what you said you understood
>>it to mean to you, I might say: "search" or "endeavor",
>>or "explore"... but to me there also has to be a bit more
>>effort to it that just "leaving yourself open to it"... so
>>what's the word in the balance? What's the word that's the
>>mid-ground between "try" & "leaving yourself open to it"???
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>
>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Neil,
>>>
>>>I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. ;o) Well, actually, I'm
>going
>>>to suggest that you, in fact, disagree with yourself. ;o)
>>>
>>>"The point is to try & find the PERFECT part that fits"
>>>
>>>I have issues here with the word "try" in that I think you mean to consciously
>>>intellectually try. I think that real high quality music flows. You can't
>>>push it. The more you push, the more you use formulas, known patterns,
>etc.
>>>This basically removes the soul. Patterns are important to know, especially
>>>in learning, but a really really good musician has the patterns burned
>into
>>>their subconscious in such a way that they no longer consciously use them.
>>>They simply allow their emotions to flow through a pre-built matrix of
>musical
>>>knowledge and come out on the instrument. Am I making any sense?
>>>
>>>"don't force the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for
>>>the part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!"
>>>
>>>"Don't force" is the magic idea here. To me "try" clashes with "don't
force".
>>>I think given art is about expression of emotions, words like "try" "force"
>>>and even "find" kinda clash with it, because they are conscious processes.
>>>
>>>I think we may be on a similar page and perhaps I'm just focussing on
the
>>>semantics of the wording, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyhow.
>;o)
>>>
>>>...it's a slow day at work. ;o)
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Kim.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Neil" <IOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
>>>>lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
>>>>
>>>>I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
>>>>back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
>>>>different or some combination of that, but I don't think
>>>>just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
>>>>that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
>>>>That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
>>>>find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
>>>>to find you more than you finding it.
>>>>
>>>>So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
>>>>something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
>>>>stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
>>>>the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
>>>>part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
>>>>
>>>>> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but you.
>>>>
>>>>>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>>
>>>>>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>>>>>
>>>>>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>>>>>
>>>>>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out
the
>>>>
>>>>>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>>>>>
>>>>>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with
>>an
>>>>
>>>>>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>>>>>
>>>>>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when
I
>>
>>>>>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>>>
>>>>>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>
>>>>>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might
>>be
>>>>
>>>>>good.
>>>>>
>>>>>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>>>>
>>>>>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>>>>>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work and
>>>
>>>>>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>>
>>>>>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike R. wrote:
>>>>>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>>
>>>>>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>>>>>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>>>
>>>>>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>>>>>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar
again
>>>>
>>>>>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept"
on
>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out,
middle
>>>>
>>>>>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>>>>
>>>>>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>>>>>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>>>>>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able
>>>to
>>>>
>>>>>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
>>>>
>>>>>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm
>>>
>>>>>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the
blues
>>>>
>>>>>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>>
>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>> MR
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92143 is a reply to message #92142] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 00:32 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Neil,
Like yourself, I find this interesting. I don't for a moment wish to suggest
your thoughts on this are wrong, as my mind constantly changes on things
like this anyhow, and the most important stuff we seem to agree on anyhow,
like "well, it kinda comes from somewhere else"... and I think the most
important thing while creating is not so much to ask to understand it, but
to accept it and let it flow, but...
My current theory is that this "spiritual" experience is related to and kinda
comes from the primal brain, though music creation clearly requires more
than just a lizard. ;o) This is my actual current theory.
Basically, I divide the mind into three parts. My "instinctive" sense of
this is more accurate than what I can express, but my basic theory is that
"Lizard brain" controls "Creative brain" which controls "Logic brain". We've
all heard left brain/right brain stuff. They don't talk much about Lizard
brain stuff. This is, however, where you fall in love, be it with a song,
or a person. It makes you scared, happy, enthusiastic, etc. There's another
level underneath which makes your heart beat and stuff, but let's just assume
for a moment that that kinda takes care of itself...
Now when I put forward the "order of control" above, it should also be clear
that, to pull me up on my own terms, "control" is the wrong word. What is
probably more accurate is that a message begins in Lizard brain. Let's say
it's just an emotional state, call it elation for the moment. So Lizard brain
says "elation" and creative brain says "Ab6 staccato crotchets at 132BPM
on piano" at which point logic brain goes "I'll need to move my hand to there"
etc. You then hear the sound of these chords coming out. Lizard brain goes
"Yeh, ya know, that makes me feel a little calmer" and creative brain goes
"OK keep the F as the sixth and just drop the whole Ab chord to a G" and
logic brain goes "That's a G7"... yada yada.
The hard part, and the part that makes it seem rather spiritual, is, in my
current mindset, that these three brain departments don't actually usually
function in this way, and when they do you feel kinda "weird and in touch".
For example, and we've all done this, sometimes you write a song directed
by logic brain, where logic brain says "In the past I've enjoyed Bb minor"
and plays it. Then lizard brain goes "I didn't feel like hearing that" and
logic brain goes "Mmm... that's not quite what I wanted, but I'm going to
run with it anyhow. What would go well after that? Mmm. What kind of things
have worked previously and how could I alter that to make something else".
Here logic brain is driving and lizard brain is just sitting there tapping
its fingers going "Yeh, I'm not real impressed...".
But I think if you can get Lizard brain to control creative brain which in
turn uses logic brain to actually execute the process, logic brain actually
discovers "Hey, this is great!" as does creative brain, and you end up not
so much with a dominant controlling section of the brain where "logic rules"
but more a balanced feeling of "Wow. I feel really in touch, with both myself,
and the music".
Now one could easily incorporate some kind of spiritual element in here as
well. I would presume that any spiritual influence would have to somehow
influence the mind anyhow, so there's nothing saying that you can't fit it
in to my above theory...
....but that, currently, is how I'm looking at music making...
....and love making... ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Neil" <OIUIOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>Yeah, but I think it's at a higher level than your "lizard
>brain", because all that really does is supply the most basic
>of functions & instincts - sustainability of life (breathing,
>for example) fight or flight, etc, etc... also, if it were at
>that low of a level, we'd be able to tap into it all the time,
>at will, because that part of the brain never stops working...
>but we can't, can we? Nope, it's at a higher level, and THAT'S
>why we feel it as a more spiritual thing - that's why it moves
>us. It's active in a part of the brain that we don't use all
>the time, or is latent in most capacities - that's what I think
>anyway... all the experts that say "well, we only use ten
>percent of out brain, etc, etc" - maybe we do, normally, but
>have they ever actively tested this theory on someone like Dave
>Brubeck while he was composing a new piece of music?
>
>Never thought of that one, didya? ;)
>
>I think this is the same place in which scientific breakthroughs
>occur; that finding "the zone" in a certain sport like Tom
>Brady does with regard to his passing accuracy happens... it's
>the same place that Alan Holdsworth found "his" tone, the same
>place that Ulrich Roth found his "sky guitar", the same place
>that somehow everyone who worked on "Aja" seemed to get to all
>at the same time (see, you knew I'd had to reference that one
>again, huh? lol). Anyway, this is just my laymans' theory, but
>it's obviously not something that happens every day to
>everyone, so I think there's some validity to it.
>
>Being open to it, PLUS the effort applied, is what allows it to
>happen.
>
>Neil
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Yeh, I think we're on the same page. Your middle paragraph pretty much
sounds
>>like my experience of it. You express it as feeling like stuff flows from
>>the universe and out through you, and hence you are a conduit for the flow
>>from elsewhere. I currently tend to think that rather than "the universe"
>>being the source, your subconscious, or moreso your sub-subconscious...
>
>>your "lizard brain" if you like, is kinda the source, but the general concept
>>and state of mind is the same.
>>
>>And of course it is the nature of "flow" that you allow it, rather than
>causing
>>it. You might need to learn to become a tap, but once you are one, you
don't
>>force water through yourself, you just release the pressure. :o)
>>
>>I probably prattled on a little too much about language semantics in my
>last
>>post. No need to do so again. ;o)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Kim.
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Ok, so, let's postulate - should I have used the
>>>word "endeavour" instead of "try"? The former suggests a more
>>>adventurous, deeper attempt, and maybe you interpret the latter
>>>as more strictly that of "effort alone"?
>>>
>>>Anyway, when I say "try" I did mean to go back, give it a shot,
>>>see what happens... when I do this, sometimes I work at it for
>>>five minutes, and sometime I work at for several hours (as was
>>>the case with the weekend before I had to go in for that finger
>>>surgery, hoping I'd nail something down before I wasn't able
>>>to use that hand in playing for a couple months - no dice).
>>>I guess to me, music is probably the most spiritual thing I do
>>>or experience, and i feel like music doesn't necessarily
>>>come "from" me, but more or less flows "through" me (OK,
>>>sometimes it's both, but mostly the 2nd thing), and the ideas
>>>are all out there floating in the universe, I just have to reach
>>>out & "grab" them and act as the conduit. You have to be in the
>>>right state of mind & body in order to do this, though -
>>>sometimes you can get there & sometimes you can't. OK, so maybe
>>>some of you think this is bullsh*t, but this is my "string
>>>theory of music" lol
>>>
>>>So, maybe "try" isn't the right word, or maybe it is - I think
>>>if I were to redefine it based on what you said you understood
>>>it to mean to you, I might say: "search" or "endeavor",
>>>or "explore"... but to me there also has to be a bit more
>>>effort to it that just "leaving yourself open to it"... so
>>>what's the word in the balance? What's the word that's the
>>>mid-ground between "try" & "leaving yourself open to it"???
>>>
>>>Neil
>>>
>>>
>>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Neil,
>>>>
>>>>I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. ;o) Well, actually, I'm
>>going
>>>>to suggest that you, in fact, disagree with yourself. ;o)
>>>>
>>>>"The point is to try & find the PERFECT part that fits"
>>>>
>>>>I have issues here with the word "try" in that I think you mean to consciously
>>>>intellectually try. I think that real high quality music flows. You can't
>>>>push it. The more you push, the more you use formulas, known patterns,
>>etc.
>>>>This basically removes the soul. Patterns are important to know, especially
>>>>in learning, but a really really good musician has the patterns burned
>>into
>>>>their subconscious in such a way that they no longer consciously use
them.
>>>>They simply allow their emotions to flow through a pre-built matrix of
>>musical
>>>>knowledge and come out on the instrument. Am I making any sense?
>>>>
>>>>"don't force the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music
for
>>>>the part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!"
>>>>
>>>>"Don't force" is the magic idea here. To me "try" clashes with "don't
>force".
>>>>I think given art is about expression of emotions, words like "try" "force"
>>>>and even "find" kinda clash with it, because they are conscious processes.
>>>>
>>>>I think we may be on a similar page and perhaps I'm just focussing on
>the
>>>>semantics of the wording, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyhow.
>>;o)
>>>>
>>>>...it's a slow day at work. ;o)
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Kim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Neil" <IOU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm gonna agree & disagree with your post (Seems I do that a
>>>>>lot with you, don't I, Bill? lol!).
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll agree with the part about keep on writing/trying, going
>>>>>back to the bit you're "stuck" on or writing something
>>>>>different or some combination of that, but I don't think
>>>>>just "doing it" is the solution in & of itself... I think
>>>>>that just tends to make you force something out that fits...
>>>>>That's easy - anyone ca do that, really. The point is to try &
>>>>>find the PERFECT part that fits; which is something that tends
>>>>>to find you more than you finding it.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, yeah don't just not do ANYTHING musical while you wait for
>>>>>something to show up inspiration-wise, work on some other
>>>>>stuff, make some progress in other tunes, etc., but don't force
>>>>>the one you're obsessing about - find the "right" music for the
>>>>>part you're trying to complete... it's out there somewhere!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Neil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>Yeah, it happens, but the only way to get past it is to keep on writing.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's you that creates it. It doesn't come from anywhere else but
you.
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Waiting
>>>
>>>>>>for inspiration is OK if you only want to write occasionally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>First frame, a guy is sitting at his typewriter blankly looking out
>the
>>>>>
>>>>>>window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Temporary"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Second frame: Same guy is standing behind a butcher shop counter with
>>>an
>>>>>
>>>>>>apron, blankly looking out the window. Caption, "Writer's Block - Permanent"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I sometimes go for a run, to get a change of environment, then when
>I
>>>
>>>>>>get an idea, I call my home answering machine. Collaborating is a good
>>>>
>>>>>>way to keep it flowing. Lots of writers do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But don't sit and wait. Write, even if it seems to suck. It will get
>>
>>>>>>better. And sometimes suckage is in the eye of the beholder. It might
>>>be
>>>>>
>>>>>>good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That reminds me of something Chick Corea said: when he plays he admires
>>>>>
>>>>>>every note he creates. I guess it's easier to do that when you are
>>>>>>Chick, but the same thing applies for us mortals. Admire your work
and
>>>>
>>>>>>it will get better - criticize it and it will get worse. Oddly enough
>>>
>>>>>>that principle works with people, too. Admiration makes us better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike R. wrote:
>>>>>>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week
>>>
>>>>>>> ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like
>
>>>>>>> fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake
>>>>
>>>>>>> --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write
>
>>>>>>> another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar
>again
>>>>>
>>>>>>> yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept"
>on
>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>>> lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out,
>middle
>>>>>
>>>>>>> eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature
>>>>>
>>>>>>> into something worth listening to a few times.
>>>>>>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly
>>>>>>> believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able
>>>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>>> craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the
guitar
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-)
I'm
>>>>
>>>>>>> crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the
>blues
>>>>>
>>>>>>> here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for
>>>
>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>> MR
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92144 is a reply to message #92141] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 01:52 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
yup, i just pick up one of the guitars (they're all different) and
start playing...anything just random chords, notes until something
happens...or not. if the guitar has no talent or ideas i'll move to
the piano and see if it's any smarter...musical.
On 30 Oct 2007 16:32:34 +1000, "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not really going there wuith your orgasm analogy, but if
>>you think about it, a similar argument could be made lol!
>
>Now, how can I put this without... err... mmm...
>
>I would put forward that if you take the "Chick" quotes from earlier about
>appreciating every note... take into account Sarah's idea about noodling
>about on an instrument in the wee hours and eventually something just flows...
> take into account the comments many have made about the idea that songs
>come from somewhere other than the conscious intelligent mind, and that the
>mind is just a conduit used to give it physical form...
>
>...well you can fill in the blanks. ;o)
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92145 is a reply to message #92140] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 02:13 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I love this kind of conversation, too. I think for many of us, creativity
is how we get close to what people like to call God.
Neil, I agree with everything you said, and I think I gave the impression
that my songs, like the ones on the Wayward CD or elsewhere, just "flowed
out of me" effortlessly from God-knows-where (and maybe she does). Au
contraire, there's always a lot of work involved once that "flow" gets
going.
Considering that most of my arrangements are insanely contrapuntal (is that
a word?), I guess it's pretty obvious that a lot of analysis and conscious
organisation of the notes went into them. I feel I should clarify my "let
it flow/guardian angel" theory:
The initial ideas, the "inspiration," the exciting sense of a song coming
into being -- THAT'S what flows in from the cosmic jet stream of music out
there. But you're right . . . once you've recognized that entity, then
comes the real work: the structure, the melody(s), the
harmony/counterpoint, the rhythms, the instrumentation, the density and
detail of the arrangment. I myself like a lot of detail in the arrangement,
sometimes to the point where I want every part to be interesting unto itself
and yet tied together in harmony and/counterpoint with every other part
throughout the song. I'm fairly obsessive about this, to the point where I
can say that in the final arrangment, nothing is unintentional, save for
improvised solos, expressive lead vocal things, and the occasional drum
fill. If there's dissonance, missing beats, extra beats, etc., . . . It's
cuz I wanted them there.
But all this detail work bordering on OCD is still based upon and devoted to
"giving birth," if you will, to a completely formed entity, with a name, a
personality, and a purpose -- the entity that originally appeared to me in
its raw form while jamming with the universe and "letting it flow." All the
work after I "reach out and grab it," as you put it, is an attempt to put it
into a physical form that I will want to listen to. (I write what I want to
hear. I've found people don't respond as well if I try to write what I
think they want to hear.)
So to summarize, yeah, open up, jam away, go with the "flow," but then you
have to recognize when you've got something. "Reach out and grab it," and
then turn what you're "hearing in your head" into something that can be
played/sung in the shared atmosphere. (This is the work part.)
So yeah, this takes some thinking, some trial and error, and occasionally
letting go for a while and coming back to it.
OK, enough about me, let's talk about my music!
:)
Sarah Jane
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4726bd96$1@linux...
>
> I love these kind of conversations - i think you can learn so
> much from these.
>
> Anyway, Miss Sarah, I think if you read my prior response to
> Kimmers, you'll find I'm somewhere between you & Bill - well,
> maybe on the far apex of the same triangle, anyway - wherein
> Bill is of the mind that if you just work at it & hammer it out,
> it'll come, and you are of the polar opposite to him, wherein
> you feel that if you just "let it flow", it'll happen. I feel
> there has to be a combination of that in that I DO feel that
> the music is all "out there" floating around, as it were, but
> the effort has to be put forth to reach out & grab it....
> there's a certain "zone" in any endeavor, and in music, it's
> the combination of being open to it and letting it flow, and
> also putting forth the effort to articulate it & "grab" the
> right stuff. THAT'S when the best stuff comes out/comes
> through... when you're in the zone mentally/spiritually, AND
> when you're making the attempt to harness it just right.
> There's a million-bazillion things that COULD fit - it's up to
> you to find the perfect thing that DOES fit.
>
> I'm not really going there wuith your orgasm analogy, but if
> you think about it, a similar argument could be made lol!
>
> Neil
>
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I sent another empty reply!=20
>>
>>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . . I was about to say . . .
>>
>>I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I almost never try
> =
>>to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) being "try." I just =
>>don't think effort and creativity go well together. I know it sounds =
>>corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best to just sit down
> =
>>and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music that is =
>>truly you come out.
>>
>>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam out something and go "Whoa . . .
> =
>>what was that again . . . ?" And that becomes the seed from which the =
>>rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll just start playing a new
> =
>>song pretty much in its entirety as though my "guardian angel" has taken
> =
>>over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't get a whole song, just a
> =
>>riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord progression. I just add it to the =
>>pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together from two or three =
>>partial bits.
>>
>>For me, none of this happens until I've been jamming mindlessly and =
>>unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, preferably in the wee hours.
>>
>>There are some exceptions, like the time I dreamt a whole song and had =
>>to leap out of bed and play it. It was all there, I just had to add two
> =
>>lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That song is "Underneath It
> =
>>All" on the Wayward CD.
>>
>>I have had that sensation you describe that I'll never be able to write
> =
>>any more songs, but I first started feeling that way at about age 19, =
>>and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe even hundreds.
>>
>>Just relax and make some noise and let it happen. Pardon the crude =
>>analogy, but I think trying to write is a bit like "trying" to have an =
>>orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and letting it happen. :)
>>
>>S
>>
>>
>> "Mike R." <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:472675f4@linux...
>> I've been trying to finish up a piece. Almost there. About a week =
>>ago I pulled out the acoustic and tried writing. Guess it's like =
>>fishing for bass at the wrong time and in the wrong part of the lake =
>>--got skunked. So I figure: I suck. I'll never be able to write =
>>another song. Not ever. I will die first. Picked up the guitar again
> =
>>yesterday. Whomp, along comes a tune. I got a general "concept" on the
> =
>>lyrics, but the melody line and chords all just came rushing out, middle
> =
>>eight and all. I'm no great witer, but I think the piece could mature =
>>into something worth listening to a few times. =20
>> It seems like it's often this way. For a day or two I truly =
>>believe, as in Saturday night revival stuff, that I will not be able to
> =
>>craft another song. It's freakin' goulish. I want to trash the guitar
> =
>>and chuck the studio out the window, or at least sell it off :-) I'm =
>>crazy right? Nobody else goes through this. I'm not singing the blues
> =
>>here, just commenting on the process. Does this ring any bells for =
>>anyone? =20
>> MR
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>><HTML><HEAD>
>><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16544" name=3DGENERATOR>
>><STYLE></STYLE>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I =
>>sent another=20
>>empty reply! </FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . =
>>. I was=20
>>about to say . . .</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't know if this will be of any =
>>help at all,=20
>>but I almost never try to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested)
> =
>>being=20
>>"try." I just don't think effort and creativity go well =
>>together. I=20
>>know it sounds corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best =
>>to just=20
>>sit down and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music =
>>that is=20
>>truly you come out.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam
> =
>>out=20
>>something and go "Whoa . . . what was that again . . . ?" And that =
>>becomes the=20
>>seed from which the rest of it grows. Sometimes, more rarely, I'll =
>>just=20
>>start playing a new song pretty much in its entirety as though my =
>>"guardian=20
>>angel" has taken over and I'm just listening. Sometimes I don't =
>>get a=20
>>whole song, just a riff, or a melody, or maybe a chord =
>>progression. I just=20
>>add it to the pile and jam on it later. I've put songs together =
>>from two=20
>>or three partial bits.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For me, none of this happens until I've
> =
>>been=20
>>jamming mindlessly and unihibitedly for at least an hour or more, =
>>preferably in=20
>>the wee hours.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are some exceptions, like the =
>>time I dreamt a=20
>>whole song and had to leap out of bed and play it. It was all =
>>there, I=20
>>just had to add two lyric verses and polish up the arrangement. That =
>>song is=20
>>"Underneath It All" on the Wayward CD.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have had that sensation you describe
> =
>>that I'll=20
>>never be able to write any more songs, but I first started feeling that
> =
>>way at=20
>>about age 19, and I've come up with dozens of songs since then, maybe =
>>even=20
>>hundreds.</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just relax and make some noise and let
> =
>>it=20
>>happen. Pardon the crude analogy, but I think trying to write is a =
>>bit=20
>>like "trying" to have an orgasm, instead of just surrendering to it and
> =
>>letting=20
>>it happen. :)</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S</FONT></DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV>"Mike R." <<A=20
>> href=3D"mailto:emarenot@yahoo.com">emarenot@yahoo.com</A>> wrote in =
>>message=20
>> <A href=3D"news:472675f4@linux">news:472675f4@linux</A>...</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've been trying to finish up a =
>>piece. =20
>> Almost there. About a week ago I pulled out the acoustic =
>>and tried=20
>> writing. Guess it's like fishing for bass at the wrong time and =
>>in the=20
>> wrong part of the lake --got skunked. So I figure: I suck. =
>>I'll=20
>> never be able to write another song. Not ever. I will die=20
>> first. Picked up the guitar again yesterday. Whomp, along =
>>comes a=20
>> tune. I got a general "concept" on the lyrics, but the melody =
>>line and=20
>> chords all just came rushing out, middle eight and all. I'm no =
>>great=20
>> witer, but I think the piece could mature into something worth =
>>listening to a=20
>> few times. </FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It seems like it's =
>>often this=20
>> way. For a day or two I truly believe, as in Saturday night =
>>revival=20
>> stuff, that I will not be able to craft another song. It's =
>>freakin'=20
>> goulish. I want to trash the guitar and chuck the studio out the =
>>window,=20
>> or at least sell it off :-) I'm crazy right? Nobody else goes =
>>through=20
>> this. I'm not singing the blues here, just commenting on the=20
>> process. Does this ring any bells for anyone? =
>></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
>>size=3D2>MR</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. & a puzzle [message #92154 is a reply to message #92145] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 16:36 |
steve the artguy
Messages: 308
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I love this stuff, too.
Seems I only discover these threads when they're already long and everyone
has already said everything I was going to say...! I agree with everything
everyone has said. . . even the contradictory stuff.
I think what we call the "collective unconscious" or the "universe of songs
from which we pluck tunes" is just our very own collection of thoughts in
our brains. Sort of like Kim's mulit-brain-verse. The more you've trained
and experience-loaded your brain, the more it's able to surprise you with
it's ablility. (I suppose you could just enlarge the "brain" concept to include
your entire body, with it's zillions of endocrine system and nervous system
cells. A complex lot.)
I've been writing a lot lately, which is a whole lot of fun. I've had times
where I tried to force it, and it plainly didn't work.
A friend of mine wanted to do some "Communal Song Writing" a while back.
I've never been able to do that -- writing is too personal. Or so I thought.
So I went over to his place and we started trading lines back and forth --
he'd write something painfully ordinary (in my absolutely non-expert opinion)
and I'd shoot something back completely out of left field -- and it actually
worked, much to my surprise. But I thought it was perhaps a fluke.
We did it again last week and I tried a different approach. I interviewed
him about some ordinary thing in his life -- how he felt about it, stories
about it, facts about it. "It" turned out to be his swimming pool.
I took the page of notes and we started constructing lines and I'd read one
and he'd offer a melody line and I'd set it to a chord progression. Got lots
of scribbles and notes.
Yesterday I took all these notes and re-constructed the tune and arranged
it and added some lines to the chorus and then grafted together two more
verses from the notes.
Can a process like this can produce a song of some sort in almost any situation?
Maybe. This is the first time I've tried it.
-steve
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>I love this kind of conversation, too. I think for many of us, creativity
>is how we get close to what people like to call God.
>
>Neil, I agree with everything you said, and I think I gave the impression
>that my songs, like the ones on the Wayward CD or elsewhere, just "flowed
>out of me" effortlessly from God-knows-where (and maybe she does). Au
>contraire, there's always a lot of work involved once that "flow" gets
>going.
>
>Considering that most of my arrangements are insanely contrapuntal (is that
>a word?), I guess it's pretty obvious that a lot of analysis and conscious
>organisation of the notes went into them. I feel I should clarify my "let
>it flow/guardian angel" theory:
>
>The initial ideas, the "inspiration," the exciting sense of a song coming
>into being -- THAT'S what flows in from the cosmic jet stream of music out
>there. But you're right . . . once you've recognized that entity, then
>comes the real work: the structure, the melody(s), the
>harmony/counterpoint, the rhythms, the instrumentation, the density and
>detail of the arrangment. I myself like a lot of detail in the arrangement,
>sometimes to the point where I want every part to be interesting unto itself
>and yet tied together in harmony and/counterpoint with every other part
>throughout the song. I'm fairly obsessive about this, to the point where
I
>can say that in the final arrangment, nothing is unintentional, save for
>improvised solos, expressive lead vocal things, and the occasional drum
>fill. If there's dissonance, missing beats, extra beats, etc., . . . It's
>cuz I wanted them there.
>
>But all this detail work bordering on OCD is still based upon and devoted
to
>"giving birth," if you will, to a completely formed entity, with a name,
a
>personality, and a purpose -- the entity that originally appeared to me
in
>its raw form while jamming with the universe and "letting it flow." All
the
>work after I "reach out and grab it," as you put it, is an attempt to put
it
>into a physical form that I will want to listen to. (I write what I want
to
>hear. I've found people don't respond as well if I try to write what I
>think they want to hear.)
>
>So to summarize, yeah, open up, jam away, go with the "flow," but then you
>have to recognize when you've got something. "Reach out and grab it," and
>then turn what you're "hearing in your head" into something that can be
>played/sung in the shared atmosphere. (This is the work part.)
>
>So yeah, this takes some thinking, some trial and error, and occasionally
>letting go for a while and coming back to it.
>
>OK, enough about me, let's talk about my music!
>
>:)
>
>Sarah Jane
>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4726bd96$1@linux...
>>
>> I love these kind of conversations - i think you can learn so
>> much from these.
>>
>> Anyway, Miss Sarah, I think if you read my prior response to
>> Kimmers, you'll find I'm somewhere between you & Bill - well,
>> maybe on the far apex of the same triangle, anyway - wherein
>> Bill is of the mind that if you just work at it & hammer it out,
>> it'll come, and you are of the polar opposite to him, wherein
>> you feel that if you just "let it flow", it'll happen. I feel
>> there has to be a combination of that in that I DO feel that
>> the music is all "out there" floating around, as it were, but
>> the effort has to be put forth to reach out & grab it....
>> there's a certain "zone" in any endeavor, and in music, it's
>> the combination of being open to it and letting it flow, and
>> also putting forth the effort to articulate it & "grab" the
>> right stuff. THAT'S when the best stuff comes out/comes
>> through... when you're in the zone mentally/spiritually, AND
>> when you're making the attempt to harness it just right.
>> There's a million-bazillion things that COULD fit - it's up to
>> you to find the perfect thing that DOES fit.
>>
>> I'm not really going there wuith your orgasm analogy, but if
>> you think about it, a similar argument could be made lol!
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I sent another empty reply!=20
>>>
>>>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . . I was about to say . . .
>>>
>>>I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I almost never try
>> =
>>>to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) being "try." I just
=
>>>don't think effort and creativity go well together. I know it sounds
=
>>>corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best to just sit down
>> =
>>>and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music that is =
>>>truly you come out.
>>>
>>>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam out something and go "Whoa . .
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. [message #92155 is a reply to message #92154] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 16:38 |
steve the artguy
Messages: 308
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
oh, the puzzle? I solved it while I was writing the post, and forgot to change
the subject line...!
"steve the artguy" <artguy@somethingorother.net> wrote:
>
>I love this stuff, too.
>
>Seems I only discover these threads when they're already long and everyone
>has already said everything I was going to say...! I agree with everything
>everyone has said. . . even the contradictory stuff.
>
>I think what we call the "collective unconscious" or the "universe of songs
>from which we pluck tunes" is just our very own collection of thoughts in
>our brains. Sort of like Kim's mulit-brain-verse. The more you've trained
>and experience-loaded your brain, the more it's able to surprise you with
>it's ablility. (I suppose you could just enlarge the "brain" concept to
include
>your entire body, with it's zillions of endocrine system and nervous system
>cells. A complex lot.)
>
>I've been writing a lot lately, which is a whole lot of fun. I've had times
>where I tried to force it, and it plainly didn't work.
>
>A friend of mine wanted to do some "Communal Song Writing" a while back.
>I've never been able to do that -- writing is too personal. Or so I thought.
>
>So I went over to his place and we started trading lines back and forth
--
>he'd write something painfully ordinary (in my absolutely non-expert opinion)
>and I'd shoot something back completely out of left field -- and it actually
>worked, much to my surprise. But I thought it was perhaps a fluke.
>
>We did it again last week and I tried a different approach. I interviewed
>him about some ordinary thing in his life -- how he felt about it, stories
>about it, facts about it. "It" turned out to be his swimming pool.
>
>I took the page of notes and we started constructing lines and I'd read
one
>and he'd offer a melody line and I'd set it to a chord progression. Got
lots
>of scribbles and notes.
>
>Yesterday I took all these notes and re-constructed the tune and arranged
>it and added some lines to the chorus and then grafted together two more
>verses from the notes.
>
>Can a process like this can produce a song of some sort in almost any situation?
>Maybe. This is the first time I've tried it.
>
>-steve
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>I love this kind of conversation, too. I think for many of us, creativity
>
>>is how we get close to what people like to call God.
>>
>>Neil, I agree with everything you said, and I think I gave the impression
>
>>that my songs, like the ones on the Wayward CD or elsewhere, just "flowed
>
>>out of me" effortlessly from God-knows-where (and maybe she does). Au
>>contraire, there's always a lot of work involved once that "flow" gets
>>going.
>>
>>Considering that most of my arrangements are insanely contrapuntal (is
that
>
>>a word?), I guess it's pretty obvious that a lot of analysis and conscious
>
>>organisation of the notes went into them. I feel I should clarify my "let
>
>>it flow/guardian angel" theory:
>>
>>The initial ideas, the "inspiration," the exciting sense of a song coming
>
>>into being -- THAT'S what flows in from the cosmic jet stream of music
out
>
>>there. But you're right . . . once you've recognized that entity, then
>
>>comes the real work: the structure, the melody(s), the
>>harmony/counterpoint, the rhythms, the instrumentation, the density and
>
>>detail of the arrangment. I myself like a lot of detail in the arrangement,
>
>>sometimes to the point where I want every part to be interesting unto itself
>
>>and yet tied together in harmony and/counterpoint with every other part
>
>>throughout the song. I'm fairly obsessive about this, to the point where
>I
>>can say that in the final arrangment, nothing is unintentional, save for
>
>>improvised solos, expressive lead vocal things, and the occasional drum
>
>>fill. If there's dissonance, missing beats, extra beats, etc., . . . It's
>
>>cuz I wanted them there.
>>
>>But all this detail work bordering on OCD is still based upon and devoted
>to
>>"giving birth," if you will, to a completely formed entity, with a name,
>a
>>personality, and a purpose -- the entity that originally appeared to me
>in
>>its raw form while jamming with the universe and "letting it flow." All
>the
>>work after I "reach out and grab it," as you put it, is an attempt to put
>it
>>into a physical form that I will want to listen to. (I write what I want
>to
>>hear. I've found people don't respond as well if I try to write what I
>
>>think they want to hear.)
>>
>>So to summarize, yeah, open up, jam away, go with the "flow," but then
you
>
>>have to recognize when you've got something. "Reach out and grab it," and
>
>>then turn what you're "hearing in your head" into something that can be
>
>>played/sung in the shared atmosphere. (This is the work part.)
>>
>>So yeah, this takes some thinking, some trial and error, and occasionally
>
>>letting go for a while and coming back to it.
>>
>>OK, enough about me, let's talk about my music!
>>
>>:)
>>
>>Sarah Jane
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:4726bd96$1@linux...
>>>
>>> I love these kind of conversations - i think you can learn so
>>> much from these.
>>>
>>> Anyway, Miss Sarah, I think if you read my prior response to
>>> Kimmers, you'll find I'm somewhere between you & Bill - well,
>>> maybe on the far apex of the same triangle, anyway - wherein
>>> Bill is of the mind that if you just work at it & hammer it out,
>>> it'll come, and you are of the polar opposite to him, wherein
>>> you feel that if you just "let it flow", it'll happen. I feel
>>> there has to be a combination of that in that I DO feel that
>>> the music is all "out there" floating around, as it were, but
>>> the effort has to be put forth to reach out & grab it....
>>> there's a certain "zone" in any endeavor, and in music, it's
>>> the combination of being open to it and letting it flow, and
>>> also putting forth the effort to articulate it & "grab" the
>>> right stuff. THAT'S when the best stuff comes out/comes
>>> through... when you're in the zone mentally/spiritually, AND
>>> when you're making the attempt to harness it just right.
>>> There's a million-bazillion things that COULD fit - it's up to
>>> you to find the perfect thing that DOES fit.
>>>
>>> I'm not really going there wuith your orgasm analogy, but if
>>> you think about it, a similar argument could be made lol!
>>>
>>> Neil
>>>
>>>
>>> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bloody 'ell! I can't believe I sent another empty reply!=20
>>>>
>>>>OK, I'll try again now. Ahem . . . I was about to say . . .
>>>>
>>>>I don't know if this will be of any help at all, but I almost never try
>>> =
>>>>to write a song, key word (as Kim also suggested) being "try." I just
>=
>>>>don't think effort and creativity go well together. I know it sounds
>=
>>>>corny or airy-fairy or something, but I think it's best to just sit down
>>> =
>>>>and play your instrument, clear your head, and let the music that is
=
>>>>truly you come out.
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes it's that moment when you jam out something and go "Whoa .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. & a puzzle [message #92161 is a reply to message #92160] |
Tue, 30 October 2007 18:25 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"steve the artguy" <artguy@somethingorother.net> wrote:
>
>"Neil" <OIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>"steve the artguy" <artguy@somethingorother.net> wrote:
>>>We did it again last week and I tried a different approach. I interviewed
>>>him about some ordinary thing in his life -- how he felt about it, stories
>>>about it, facts about it. "It" turned out to be his swimming pool.
>>
>>
>>Is it big enough for a coelecanth to swim about comfortably?
>>
>>:)
>
>
>
>I honestly haven't seen the pool....but I suspect that it is, indeed, big
>enough for a prehistoric fish frolic.
>
>man, for a guy with a bum finger, you sure type a lot!
>
I'm adapting pretty well, huh? lol It's kinda hard to keep it
up & out of the way, but I'm hunting & pecking along pretty
good.
Neil
|
|
|
|
| Re: Sometimes the windshield, sometimes the bug. & a puzzle [message #92186 is a reply to message #92154] |
Wed, 31 October 2007 16:46 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"steve the artguy" <artguy@somethingorother.net> wrote:
>A friend of mine wanted to do some "Communal Song Writing" a while back.
>I've never been able to do that -- writing is too personal. Or so I thought.
>Can a process like this can produce a song of some sort in almost any situation?
>Maybe. This is the first time I've tried it.
Did it once at a party in H-wood. It ended up rather obscene
as I remember...
This sounds so attractive and I would love to do more of it,
but after reading what happened with the group that wrote
the Tuesday Night Music Club CD with Cheryl Crow it makes me
really nervous. That situation got really acrimonious and some
even blame the decline and death of Kevin Gilbert on it.
It depends on the quality of the people you are writing with
and that is not always known in advance.
Still it sounds so cool...
DC
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Nov 11 02:26:25 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.07032 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
