Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » vista where are we now ?
| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96121 is a reply to message #96118] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 12:45   |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47bc74e5$1@linux...
>>
>> Here's what Jobs had to say about MS.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw&feature=relat ed
>
>That's one of the funniest and most juvenile comments I've every heard from
>a CEO.
I would say it was vary accurate!
>Ah, the Jobs/Gates family feud - will it ever end? Well eventually,
>morbidly speaking...
>or when Google takes them both over....
>
>>
>> More Jobs
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA&NR=1
>>
>>
>> erlilo <erling.lovik@lyse.net> wrote:
>>>It seems noone here seems to remember what's happeing when Mac nearly
>>>was going to the graveyard, was it in the early '90ties? Micro$$
>>>would get monopoly problems with the gouvernment if Mac lost that
>>>fight, so Micro$$$ was spitting millions of $ into the Macfirm, just
>>>to be sure it would survive. I don't know yet, if Micro$$$ still is
>>>one of the MAC owners.
>>>
>>>Erling
>>>
>>>On 20 Feb 2008 17:53:31 +1000, "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>Companies are not all the same; only limited by money from doing
>>>>>evil.
>>>>
>>>>True, to an extent. Apple are certainly not beyond both ends, and to
an
>> extent
>>>>it always depends on who dealt with the area which involves you.
>>>>
>>>>>ps having said all that... DAMN I hate online platform arguments!
>>>>>I mean who really cares?
>>>>
>>>>Well that was more or less my point. I mean we seem to have reached a
>>>>point
>>>>in many of these arguments just perpetuate. I just wanted to point out
>> that
>>>>no company is beyond doing good or bad.
>>>>
>>>>I tend to think we should put our efforts here into the specifics of
the
>>>>user experience in the O.S. moreso than the underlying politics, which
>> belongs
>>>>on General one would think.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Kim.
>>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96122 is a reply to message #96120] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 12:51 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>That line from gates is a fictional line from the movie "Pirates of Silicon
>Valley". the truth is Apple licensed the rights from Xerox for one million
>dollars worth of Apple common stock, which Xerox sold about a year later
>for around 16 million. It's too bad the Xerox executives had poor vision,
>had they held that stock it would be worth a lot more today. Xerox under
>utilized that technology. The Xerox executives under estimated the value
>of the technology. Apple developed the raw technology in to a very useable
>GUI with color. When the Xerox executives saw what Apple did with the technology,
> they wanted to sue Apple, but it was too late.
>
>What did Microsoft pay for the technology? Xerox created the basic technology,
>Apple licensed the technology and developed it quite a bit further, Microsoft
>stole it!
>
>It's a well known fact that Apple had a development license deal with MS
>to develop a spread sheet for the Macintosh OS. Apple provided MS with
the
>Mac OS code, MS saw what Apple was doing and how they were achieving it,
>MS copied what Apple was doing. Gates did not beat Apple to market, that's
>fiction, The Macintosh was released on Jan 24th 1984, Windows was not released
>until Nov. 20th 1985 almost two years later. MS copied and ripped off Apple.
> A judge thought competition was good for the people.
Here is more on the subject, read what Raskin and Horn had to say:
http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=gui
>http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=gui
>
>
>"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>This is even more interesting, and seems more historical (coming from an
>
>>earlier developer
>>than Horn), also without so much of the Mac slant of the other link:
>>
>>http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=gui
>>
>>Also note the last couple of paragraphs on OS's - I completely agree with
>
>>him there (really a side note to this debate, but interesting).
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:47bc6a7a$1@linux...
>>>
>>> http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html
>>>
>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>>Yes Rick or IBM? PARC anyone?
>>>>
>>>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:1ttnr3lrlrb1ess4jdek459qu724gpa07b@4ax.com...
>>>>> ask atari about the ethics of some employees they once had.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96123 is a reply to message #96105] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 14:11 |
Martin Harrington
Messages: 560
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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James, you really are a sad little man.
How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies, can get
someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the death
BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly so,
)....
You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware or use
any resemblance to their name.
Martin Harrington
On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy and
> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the two
> companies
> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that Apple
> records
> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like a zoo
> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>
> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree not to
> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer again
> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record
> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right to
> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was nothing
> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit against
> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>
> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>
> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things, early
>
>> history:
>>
>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa project?
>>
>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the room
> to
>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets involved.
>>
>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but it's
>
>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either. Let's
>
>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>
>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you he saved
>
>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have a different
>
>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective is
>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and it's
>
>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just has
> more
>> power.
>>
>> Just a little levity.
>>
>>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96124 is a reply to message #96123] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 15:56 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or hear
the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you strait
because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft
when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's not
true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.
I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for myself, but you can't
say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft.
I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies from
the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so what.
Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? What's wrong
with Vista?
By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.
Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>James, you really are a sad little man.
>
>How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies, can
get
>someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
>
>You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the death
>
>BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly so,
>)....
>You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware or
use
>any resemblance to their name.
>
>
>Martin Harrington
>
>
>On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy
and
>> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the two
>> companies
>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that Apple
>> records
>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like a
zoo
>> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>>
>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree not
to
>> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer
again
>> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record
>> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right
to
>> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was nothing
>> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit against
>> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>>
>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>>
>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things, early
>>
>>> history:
>>>
>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa project?
>>>
>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the room
>> to
>>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets involved.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but it's
>>
>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either. Let's
>>
>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>>
>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you he
saved
>>
>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have a different
>>
>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective is
>>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and it's
>>
>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just has
>> more
>>> power.
>>>
>>> Just a little levity.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96131 is a reply to message #96124] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 15:54 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C873E9.94D65DB0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:47bcb00c$1@linux...
>=20
> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or =
hear
> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set =
you strait
> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as =
Microsoft
> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because =
it's not
> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of =
stuff.
But when you see it, you won't accept it anyway dude.=20
Right outta Steve's mouth, and I bet you'll still fight and deny about =
it. Why man?
http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
Partial transcript:=20
Steve Jobs
And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the =
first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they =
showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I =
didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked =
computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked =
using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the =
first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I =
thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it =
was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of =
things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they =
had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and =
within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers =
would work like this some day. It was a turning-point. Jobs decided that =
this was the way forward for Apple.
Adele Goldberg
Founder, PARC Place Systems
He came back and I almost said asked, but the truth is, demanded that =
his entire programming team get a demo of the Smalltalk System and the =
then head of the science centre asked me to give the demo because Steve =
specifically asked for me to give the demo and I said no way. I had a =
big argument with these Xerox executives telling them that they were =
about to give away the kitchen sink and I said that I would only do it =
if I were ordered to do it cause then of course it would be their =
responsibility, and that's what they did.
Steve Jobs
Basically they were copier heads that just had no clue about a computer =
or what it could do. And so they just grabbed eh grabbed defeat from the =
greatest victory in the computer industry. Xerox could have owned the =
entire computer industry today. Could have been you know a company ten =
times its size. Could have been IBM - could have been the IBM of the =
nineties. Could have been the Microsoft of the nineties.
For Steve Jobs the road to Damascus passed through Palo Alto. He =
persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd seen =
at Xerox Parc - his instrument of change. They hired a hundred engineers =
and started developing a new PC codenamed Lisa. But there were problems. =
They couldn't get it to work properly and the pricetag was heading =
toward $10,000 - way too much for the average PC buyer. Jobs' =
domineering style drove everyone nutstoo so the board ousted him from =
his own pet project.
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C873E9.94D65DB0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"James McCloskey" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>excelsm@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
wrote in=20
message </FONT><A href=3D"news:47bcb00c$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:47bcb00c$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm =
just=20
setting things strait. When I see or hear<BR>> the same old =
lies like=20
Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you strait<BR>> because =
it's not=20
true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft<BR>> =
when it=20
comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's =
not<BR>> true=20
also. <U>I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of=20
stuff.</U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But when you see it, you won't accept =
it anyway=20
dude. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Right outta Steve's mouth, and I bet =
you'll still=20
fight and deny about it. Why man?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><A =
href=3D"http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG>http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html</STRONG></FONT></A><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Partial transcript: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve Jobs<BR>And they showed me really =
three=20
things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see =
the other=20
two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming =
they=20
showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me =
was a=20
networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all =
networked=20
using email etc., etc., <STRONG>I didn't even see that. I was so blinded =
by the=20
first thing they showed me which was the graphical user =
interface.</STRONG> I=20
thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it =
was very=20
flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. =
But we=20
didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the =
idea was=20
there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it =
was=20
obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day. It was a =
turning-point. Jobs decided that this was the way forward for=20
Apple.<BR><BR><U>Adele Goldberg</U><BR>Founder, PARC Place Systems<BR>He =
came=20
back and I almost said asked, but the truth is, demanded that his entire =
programming team get a demo of the Smalltalk System and the then head of =
the=20
science centre asked me to give the demo because <STRONG>Steve =
specifically=20
asked for me to give the demo and I said no way.</STRONG> <STRONG>I had =
a big=20
argument with these Xerox executives telling them that they were about =
to give=20
away the kitchen sink</STRONG> and I said that I would only do it if I =
were=20
ordered to do it cause then of course it would be their responsibility, =
and=20
that's what they did.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U>Steve Jobs<BR></U>Basically they =
were copier=20
heads that just had no clue about a computer or what it could do. And so =
they=20
just grabbed eh grabbed defeat from the greatest victory in the computer =
industry. Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry today. =
Could have=20
been you know a company ten times its size. Could have been IBM - could =
have=20
been the IBM of the nineties. Could have been the Microsoft of the=20
nineties.<BR><BR>For Steve Jobs the road to Damascus passed through Palo =
Alto.=20
He persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd =
seen at=20
Xerox Parc - his instrument of change. They hired a hundred engineers =
and=20
started developing a new PC codenamed Lisa. But there were problems. =
They=20
couldn't get it to work properly and the pricetag was heading toward =
$10,000 -=20
way too much for the average PC buyer. <STRONG>Jobs' domineering style =
drove=20
everyone nutstoo so the board ousted him from his own pet=20
project.<BR></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG> </DIV></STRONG></FONT></DIV ></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C873E9.94D65DB0--
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96133 is a reply to message #96124] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 16:41 |
Martin Harrington
Messages: 560
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sorry James..
Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.
Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW, but I was
running Vista, and my Business machine at home is running Vista.
I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memory hog, but
I really like the way that OSX functions..it all works, pretty much without
extra plugins...still needs some though.
Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense programs
together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the same
hardware... Go figure.
I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tiger, (no
Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't got round
to getting many OSX plugins yet.
The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, Dinky
graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do.
Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it a rest....
Martin Harrington
On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or hear
> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you strait
> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft
> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's not
> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.
> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for myself, but you can't
> say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft.
>
> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies from
> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so what.
>
> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? What's wrong
> with Vista?
>
> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.
>
> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> James, you really are a sad little man.
>>
>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies, can
> get
>> someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
>>
>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the death
>>
>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly so,
>> )....
>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware or
> use
>> any resemblance to their name.
>>
>>
>> Martin Harrington
>>
>>
>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy
> and
>>> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the two
>>> companies
>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that Apple
>>> records
>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like a
> zoo
>>> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>>>
>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree not
> to
>>> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer
> again
>>> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record
>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right
> to
>>> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was nothing
>>> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit against
>>> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>>>
>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>>>
>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things, early
>>>
>>>> history:
>>>>
>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa project?
>>>>
>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the room
>>> to
>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets
>>>> involved.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but it's
>>>
>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either. Let's
>>>
>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>>>
>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you he
> saved
>>>
>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have a
>>>> different
>>>
>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective is
>>>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and it's
>>>
>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just has
>>> more
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> Just a little levity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96135 is a reply to message #96131] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 21:28 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron, I don't disagree with any of this, but what is left out is that Xerox
gave him the right to use the technology for one million dollars worth of
Apple common stock. A couple of other things to add to this is the Apple
Lisa had ethernet and a mouse, both created at Xerox PARC. Jobs wasn't just
kicked off the Lisa project, he was also kicked off the Macintosh project
around 1985.
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>news:47bcb00c$1@linux...
>>=20
>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or =
>hear
>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set =
>you strait
>> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as =
>Microsoft
>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because =
>it's not
>> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of =
>stuff.
>
>But when you see it, you won't accept it anyway dude.=20
>Right outta Steve's mouth, and I bet you'll still fight and deny about =
>it. Why man?
>
>http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
>
>Partial transcript:=20
>
>Steve Jobs
>And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the =
>first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they
=
>showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I =
>didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked =
>computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked =
>using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the
=
>first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I =
>thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it
=
>was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of =
>things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they
=
>had the germ of the idea was there and they'd done it very well and =
>within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers =
>would work like this some day. It was a turning-point. Jobs decided that
=
>this was the way forward for Apple.
>
>Adele Goldberg
>Founder, PARC Place Systems
>He came back and I almost said asked, but the truth is, demanded that =
>his entire programming team get a demo of the Smalltalk System and the =
>then head of the science centre asked me to give the demo because Steve
=
>specifically asked for me to give the demo and I said no way. I had a =
>big argument with these Xerox executives telling them that they were =
>about to give away the kitchen sink and I said that I would only do it =
>if I were ordered to do it cause then of course it would be their =
>responsibility, and that's what they did.
>
>
>Steve Jobs
>Basically they were copier heads that just had no clue about a computer
=
>or what it could do. And so they just grabbed eh grabbed defeat from the
=
>greatest victory in the computer industry. Xerox could have owned the =
>entire computer industry today. Could have been you know a company ten =
>times its size. Could have been IBM - could have been the IBM of the =
>nineties. Could have been the Microsoft of the nineties.
>
>For Steve Jobs the road to Damascus passed through Palo Alto. He =
>persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd seen
=
>at Xerox Parc - his instrument of change. They hired a hundred engineers
=
>and started developing a new PC codenamed Lisa. But there were problems.
=
>They couldn't get it to work properly and the pricetag was heading =
>toward $10,000 - way too much for the average PC buyer. Jobs' =
>domineering style drove everyone nutstoo so the board ousted him from =
>his own pet project.
>
>
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"James McCloskey" <</FONT><A=20
>href=3D"mailto:excelsm@hotmail.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>excelsm@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
>wrote in=20
>message </FONT><A href=3D"news:47bcb00c$1@linux"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2>news:47bcb00c$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm =
>just=20
>setting things strait. When I see or hear<BR>> the same old =
>lies like=20
>Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you strait<BR>> because =
>it's not=20
>true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft<BR>> =
>when it=20
>comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's =
>not<BR>> true=20
>also. <U>I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of=20
>stuff.</U></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But when you see it, you won't accept =
>it anyway=20
>dude. </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Right outta Steve's mouth, and I bet =
>you'll still=20
>fight and deny about it. Why man?</FONT></DIV>
><DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV align=3Dcenter><A =
>href=3D"http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2><STRONG>http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html</STRONG></FONT></A><=
>/DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Partial transcript: </FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve Jobs<BR>And they showed me really
=
>three=20
>things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see =
>the other=20
>two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming =
>they=20
>showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me
=
>was a=20
>networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all =
>networked=20
>using email etc., etc., <STRONG>I didn't even see that. I was so blinded
=
>by the=20
>first thing they showed me which was the graphical user =
>interface.</STRONG> I=20
>thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it
=
>was very=20
>flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong.
=
>But we=20
>didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the =
>idea was=20
>there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it =
>was=20
>obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day. It was a
=
>
>turning-point. Jobs decided that this was the way forward for=20
>Apple.<BR><BR><U>Adele Goldberg</U><BR>Founder, PARC Place Systems<BR>He
=
>came=20
>back and I almost said asked, but the truth is, demanded that his entire
=
>
>programming team get a demo of the Smalltalk System and the then head of
=
>the=20
>science centre asked me to give the demo because <STRONG>Steve =
>specifically=20
>asked for me to give the demo and I said no way.</STRONG> <STRONG>I had
=
>a big=20
>argument with these Xerox executives telling them that they were about =
>to give=20
>away the kitchen sink</STRONG> and I said that I would only do it if I =
>were=20
>ordered to do it cause then of course it would be their responsibility,
=
>and=20
>that's what they did.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U>Steve Jobs<BR></U>Basically they =
>were copier=20
>heads that just had no clue about a computer or what it could do. And so
=
>they=20
>just grabbed eh grabbed defeat from the greatest victory in the computer
=
>
>industry. Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry today. =
>Could have=20
>been you know a company ten times its size. Could have been IBM - could
=
>have=20
>been the IBM of the nineties. Could have been the Microsoft of the=20
>nineties.<BR><BR>For Steve Jobs the road to Damascus passed through Palo
=
>Alto.=20
>He persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd =
>seen at=20
>Xerox Parc - his instrument of change. They hired a hundred engineers =
>and=20
>started developing a new PC codenamed Lisa. But there were problems. =
>They=20
>couldn't get it to work properly and the pricetag was heading toward =
>$10,000 -=20
>way too much for the average PC buyer. <STRONG>Jobs' domineering style =
>drove=20
>everyone nutstoo so the board ousted him from his own pet=20
>project.<BR></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2><STRONG> </DIV></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96137 is a reply to message #96133] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 22:08 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Sorry James..
>
>Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.
>
>Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW, but I
was
>running Vista, and my Business machine at home is running Vista.
>
>I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memory hog,
but
>I really like the way that OSX functions..it all works, pretty much without
>extra plugins...still needs some though.
>
>Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense programs
>together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the same
>hardware... Go figure.
>
>I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tiger, (no
>Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't got round
>to getting many OSX plugins yet.
>
>The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, Dinky
>graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do.
>
>Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it a rest....
>
>
>Martin Harrington
>
>
Martin, apology accepted, and I want to thank you for your honesty about
what you use and your preferences. I find it vary interesting that you are
able to run Mac OSX on PC hardware. I don't know who else would be interested,
but it would be great if you would post your setup again and what you had
to do to get it running.
Some times the old NG gets a little boring, a little heated debate isn't
all bad. I'm with Kim, this dead horse belongs on the general NG. And yes,
I'm ready to give it a rest, if everybody else is. ?
>
>
>On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or hear
>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you
strait
>> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft
>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's
not
>> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.
>> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for myself, but you
can't
>> say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft.
>>
>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies from
>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
>> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so what.
>>
>> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? What's wrong
>> with Vista?
>>
>> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.
>>
>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>> James, you really are a sad little man.
>>>
>>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies,
can
>> get
>>> someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
>>>
>>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the
death
>>>
>>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly
so,
>>> )....
>>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware
or
>> use
>>> any resemblance to their name.
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin Harrington
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy
>> and
>>>> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the two
>>>> companies
>>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that Apple
>>>> records
>>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like
a
>> zoo
>>>> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>>>>
>>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree
not
>> to
>>>> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer
>> again
>>>> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record
>>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right
>> to
>>>> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was
nothing
>>>> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit
against
>>>> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
>>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>>>>
>>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things,
early
>>>>
>>>>> history:
>>>>>
>>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa project?
>>>>>
>>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the
room
>>>> to
>>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets
>>>>> involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but
it's
>>>>
>>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either.
Let's
>>>>
>>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>>>>
>>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you
he
>> saved
>>>>
>>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have a
>>>>> different
>>>>
>>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective
is
>>>>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and
it's
>>>>
>>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just
has
>>>> more
>>>>> power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a little levity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96138 is a reply to message #96137] |
Wed, 20 February 2008 23:17 |
Martin Harrington
Messages: 560
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--B_3286462641_32891092
Content-type: text/plain;
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Basically, with most modern Intel and AMD machines, osx works straight out
of the box.Of course it helps if you have a video card that is supported by
Apple, and use sata drives, including DVD drives.
There are many documented uses on celerons etc, and a great deal of
notebooks too.
The best site for information is www.insanelymac.com and go to the forums.
This is my setup, and I'm only using an Nvidia 7300 card with 128 mg ram.
Hardware Overview:
Machine Name: Mac
Machine Model: P35-DS3L ...This series board is
recognised as being one of the most compatible
Processor Name: Intel® Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @
Processor Speed: 2.4 GHz
Total Number Of Cores: 2
L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB
Processor Features: FPU VME DE PSE TSC MSR PAE MCE CX8 APIC SEP MTRR
PGE MCA CMOV PAT PSE36 CLFSH DS ACPI MMX FXSR SSE SSE2 SS HTT TM SSE3 MON
DSCPL VMX EST TM2 SSSE3 CX16 TPR PDCM
Memory: 2 GB
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
Boot ROM Version: Hack.88Z.int.0sh.061193037 (Award Software
International, Inc.)
On 21/02/08 5:08 PM, in article 47bd0746$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> Sorry James..
>>
>> Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.
>>
>> Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW, but I
> was
>> running Vista, and my Business machine at home is running Vista.
>>
>> I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memory hog,
> but
>> I really like the way that OSX functions..it all works, pretty much without
>> extra plugins...still needs some though.
>>
>> Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense programs
>> together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the same
>> hardware... Go figure.
>>
>> I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tiger, (no
>> Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't got round
>> to getting many OSX plugins yet.
>>
>> The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, Dinky
>> graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do.
>>
>> Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it a rest....
>>
>>
>> Martin Harrington
>>
>>
>
> Martin, apology accepted, and I want to thank you for your honesty about
> what you use and your preferences. I find it vary interesting that you are
> able to run Mac OSX on PC hardware. I don't know who else would be
> interested,
> but it would be great if you would post your setup again and what you had
> to do to get it running.
>
> Some times the old NG gets a little boring, a little heated debate isn't
> all bad. I'm with Kim, this dead horse belongs on the general NG. And yes,
> I'm ready to give it a rest, if everybody else is. ?
>
>>
>>
>> On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or hear
>>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set you
> strait
>>> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft
>>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's
> not
>>> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.
>>> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for myself, but you
> can't
>>> say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft.
>>>
>>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies from
>>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
>>> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so what.
>>>
>>> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? What's wrong
>>> with Vista?
>>>
>>> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.
>>>
>>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>> James, you really are a sad little man.
>>>>
>>>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies,
> can
>>> get
>>>> someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
>>>>
>>>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the
> death
>>>>
>>>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly
> so,
>>>> )....
>>>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware
> or
>>> use
>>>> any resemblance to their name.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Martin Harrington
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy
>>> and
>>>>> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the two
>>>>> companies
>>>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that Apple
>>>>> records
>>>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like
> a
>>> zoo
>>>>> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree
> not
>>> to
>>>>> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer
>>> again
>>>>> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record
>>>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right
>>> to
>>>>> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was
> nothing
>>>>> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit
> against
>>>>> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
>>>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>>>>>
>>>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things,
> early
>>>>>
>>>>>> history:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>>>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa
>>>>>> project?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the
> room
>>>>> to
>>>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets
>>>>>> involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but
> it's
>>>>>
>>>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either.
> Let's
>>>>>
>>>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>>>>>
>>>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you
> he
>>> saved
>>>>>
>>>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>
>>>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective
> is
>>>>>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>>>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and
> it's
>>>>>
>>>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just
> has
>>>>> more
>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a little levity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
--B_3286462641_32891092
Content-type: text/html;
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: vista where are we now ?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D=
'font-size:11pt'>Basically, with most modern Intel and AMD machines, osx wor=
ks straight out of the box.Of course it helps if you have a video card that =
is supported by Apple, and use sata drives, including DVD drives.<BR>
There are many documented uses on celerons etc, and a great deal of noteboo=
ks too.<BR>
The best site for information is www.insanelymac.com and go to the fo=
rums.<BR>
This is my setup, and I'm only using an Nvidia 7300 card with 128 mg ram.<B=
R>
<BR>
Hardware Overview:<BR>
<BR>
Machine Name: Mac<BR>
Machine Model: P35-DS3L &nb=
sp; &nb sp; &nb sp;&=
nbsp; ...<B><I>This series board is recognised as being one of the most=
compatible<BR>
</I></B> Processor Name: Intel® Core(TM)2 CPU 6=
600 @<BR>
Processor Speed: 2.4 GHz<BR>
Total Number Of Cores: 2<BR>
L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB<BR>
Processor Features: FPU VME DE PSE TSC MSR PA=
E MCE CX8 APIC SEP MTRR PGE MCA CMOV PAT PSE36 CLFSH DS ACPI MMX FXSR SSE SS=
E2 SS HTT TM SSE3 MON DSCPL VMX EST TM2 SSSE3 CX16 TPR PDCM<BR>
Memory: 2 GB<BR>
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz<BR>
Boot ROM Version: Hack.88Z.int.0sh.061193037 =
(Award Software International, Inc.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 21/02/08 5:08 PM, in article 47bd0746$1@linux, "James McClosk=
ey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> Sorry James..<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW,=
but I<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> was<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> running Vista, and my Business machin=
e at home is running Vista.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memor=
y hog,<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> but<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> I really like the way that OSX functi=
ons..it all works, pretty much without<BR>
>> extra plugins...still needs some though.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense pro=
grams<BR>
>> together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the sa=
me<BR>
>> hardware... Go figure.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tig=
er, (no<BR>
>> Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't g=
ot round<BR>
>> to getting many OSX plugins yet.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, =
Dinky<BR>
>> graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do=
..<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it =
a rest....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Martin Harrington <BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
> Martin, apology accepted, and I want to thank you for your honesty abo=
ut<BR>
> what you use and your preferences. I find it vary interesting th=
at you are<BR>
> able to run Mac OSX on PC hardware. I don't know who else would =
be <BR>
> interested,<BR>
> but it would be great if you would post your setup again and what you =
had<BR>
> to do to get it running.<BR>
> <BR>
> Some times the old NG gets a little boring, a little heated debate isn=
't<BR>
> all bad. I'm with Kim, this dead horse belongs on the general NG=
.. And yes,<BR>
> I'm ready to give it a rest, if everybody else is. ?<BR>
> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James &nb=
sp;McCloskey"<BR>
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR>
>>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. Wh=
en I see or hear<BR>
>>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'l=
l set you<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> strait<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> because it's not true. When=
People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft<BR>
>>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up bec=
ause it's<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> not<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> true also. I've ask for exa=
mples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.<BR>
>>> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for m=
yself, but you<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> can't<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> say Apple is just as bad as Micro=
soft.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy m=
ovies from<BR>
>>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of t=
he iPod).<BR>
>>> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so w=
hat.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? &=
nbsp;What's wrong<BR>
>>> with Vista?<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:<B=
R>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> James, you really are a sad l=
ittle man.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer =
companies,<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> can<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> get<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> someone riled up as much as y=
ou get, is beyond belief.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defen=
d it to the<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> death<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> <BR>
>>>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (a=
nd quite rightly<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> so,<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> )....<BR>
>>>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy thei=
r hardware<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> or<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> use<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> any resemblance to their name=
..<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> Martin Harrington<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "Ja=
mes McCloskey"<BR>
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I wou=
ld call a greedy<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> and<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> frivolous law suit.  =
;It's a big stretch to say that people got the two<BR>
>>>>> companies<BR>
>>>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridicu=
lous to say that Apple<BR>
>>>>> records<BR>
>>>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple.  =
;That would be like<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> a<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> zoo<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> saying they have an exclu=
sive right to the name impala.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. &nb=
sp;Apple did agree<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> not<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> to<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> enter the record company =
business, so Apple records sued Apple computer<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> again<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> when Apple started iTunes=
.. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record<BR>
>>>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Compute=
r. Apple had a right<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> to<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> resell music or recording=
s just like best buy or mp3.com, there was<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> nothing<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> unethical about it.  =
;Apple records filed another frivolous law suit<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> against<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> Apple computer. I d=
o not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,<BR>
>>>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still=
sucks; )<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude>=
; wrote:<BR>
>>>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards ri=
ddle me 2 things,<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> early<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> history:<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?<BR>
>>>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of=
the Apple Lisa <BR>
>>>>>> project?<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they =
usually leave the<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> room<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> to <BR>
>>>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word =
'corporate' gets<BR>
>>>>>> involved.<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), =
hardly that, but<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> it's<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong armi=
ng folks either.<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> Let's<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreem=
ent. One conveniently<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jo=
bs will tell you<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> he<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> saved<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards =
at labels have a<BR>
>>>>>> different<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO=
) My perspective<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> is<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>>> different than both t=
hose parties. Everybody has their truth.<BR>
>>>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a=
tall order, and<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> it's<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller one=
s around. MS just<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> has<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> more <BR>
>>>>>> power.<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> Just a little levity.<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--B_3286462641_32891092--
|
|
|
|
| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96139 is a reply to message #96138] |
Thu, 21 February 2008 01:05 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks Martin!
Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>
>Basically, with most modern Intel and AMD machines, osx works straight out
>of the box.Of course it helps if you have a video card that is supported
by
>Apple, and use sata drives, including DVD drives.
>There are many documented uses on celerons etc, and a great deal of
>notebooks too.
>The best site for information is www.insanelymac.com and go to the forums.
>This is my setup, and I'm only using an Nvidia 7300 card with 128 mg ram.
>
>Hardware Overview:
>
> Machine Name: Mac
> Machine Model: P35-DS3L ...This series board is
>recognised as being one of the most compatible
> Processor Name: Intel® Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @
> Processor Speed: 2.4 GHz
> Total Number Of Cores: 2
> L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB
> Processor Features: FPU VME DE PSE TSC MSR PAE MCE CX8 APIC SEP MTRR
>PGE MCA CMOV PAT PSE36 CLFSH DS ACPI MMX FXSR SSE SSE2 SS HTT TM SSE3 MON
>DSCPL VMX EST TM2 SSSE3 CX16 TPR PDCM
> Memory: 2 GB
> Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
> Boot ROM Version: Hack.88Z.int.0sh.061193037 (Award Software
>International, Inc.)
>
>
>
>
>On 21/02/08 5:08 PM, in article 47bd0746$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>> Sorry James..
>>>
>>> Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.
>>>
>>> Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW, but
I
>> was
>>> running Vista, and my Business machine at home is running Vista.
>>>
>>> I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memory hog,
>> but
>>> I really like the way that OSX functions..it all works, pretty much without
>>> extra plugins...still needs some though.
>>>
>>> Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense programs
>>> together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the same
>>> hardware... Go figure.
>>>
>>> I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tiger,
(no
>>> Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't got
round
>>> to getting many OSX plugins yet.
>>>
>>> The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, Dinky
>>> graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do.
>>>
>>> Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it a rest....
>>>
>>>
>>> Martin Harrington
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Martin, apology accepted, and I want to thank you for your honesty about
>> what you use and your preferences. I find it vary interesting that you
are
>> able to run Mac OSX on PC hardware. I don't know who else would be
>> interested,
>> but it would be great if you would post your setup again and what you
had
>> to do to get it running.
>>
>> Some times the old NG gets a little boring, a little heated debate isn't
>> all bad. I'm with Kim, this dead horse belongs on the general NG. And
yes,
>> I'm ready to give it a rest, if everybody else is. ?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. When I see or
hear
>>>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'll set
you
>> strait
>>>> because it's not true. When People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft
>>>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up because it's
>> not
>>>> true also. I've ask for examples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.
>>>> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for myself, but
you
>> can't
>>>> say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy movies
from
>>>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of the iPod).
>>>> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so what.
>>>>
>>>> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? What's
wrong
>>>> with Vista?
>>>>
>>>> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.
>>>>
>>>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>>> James, you really are a sad little man.
>>>>>
>>>>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer companies,
>> can
>>>> get
>>>>> someone riled up as much as you get, is beyond belief.
>>>>>
>>>>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defend it to the
>> death
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (and quite rightly
>> so,
>>>>> )....
>>>>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy their hardware
>> or
>>>> use
>>>>> any resemblance to their name.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin Harrington
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I would call a greedy
>>>> and
>>>>>> frivolous law suit. It's a big stretch to say that people got the
two
>>>>>> companies
>>>>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridiculous to say that
Apple
>>>>>> records
>>>>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. That would be like
>> a
>>>> zoo
>>>>>> saying they have an exclusive right to the name impala.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. Apple did agree
>> not
>>>> to
>>>>>> enter the record company business, so Apple records sued Apple computer
>>>> again
>>>>>> when Apple started iTunes. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the
record
>>>>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Computer. Apple had a right
>>>> to
>>>>>> resell music or recordings just like best buy or mp3.com, there was
>> nothing
>>>>>> unethical about it. Apple records filed another frivolous law suit
>> against
>>>>>> Apple computer. I do not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,
>>>>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still sucks; )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>>>>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards riddle me 2 things,
>> early
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> history:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?
>>>>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of the Apple Lisa
>>>>>>> project?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they usually leave the
>> room
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word 'corporate' gets
>>>>>>> involved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), hardly that, but
>> it's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong arming folks either.
>> Let's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreement. One conveniently
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jobs will tell you
>> he
>>>> saved
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards at labels have
a
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO) My perspective
>> is
>>>>>>> different than both those parties. Everybody has their truth.
>>>>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a tall order, and
>> it's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller ones around. MS just
>> has
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a little levity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>Re: vista where are we now ?</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
STYLE=3D=
>'font-size:11pt'>Basically, with most modern Intel and AMD machines, osx
wor=
>ks straight out of the box.Of course it helps if you have a video card that
=
>is supported by Apple, and use sata drives, including DVD drives.<BR>
>There are many documented uses on celerons etc, and a great deal of noteboo=
>ks too.<BR>
>The best site for information is www.insanelymac.com and go to the fo=
>rums.<BR>
>This is my setup, and I'm only using an Nvidia 7300 card with 128 mg ram.<B=
>R>
><BR>
>Hardware Overview:<BR>
><BR>
> Machine Name: Mac<BR>
> Machine Model: P35-DS3L &nb=
>sp; &=
>nbsp; ...<B><I>This series board is recognised as being one of the most=
> compatible<BR>
></I></B> Processor Name: Intel® Core(TM)2 CPU 6=
>600 @<BR>
> Processor Speed: 2.4 GHz<BR>
> Total Number Of Cores: 2<BR>
> L2 Cache (per processor): 4 MB<BR>
> Processor Features: FPU VME DE PSE TSC MSR PA=
>E MCE CX8 APIC SEP MTRR PGE MCA CMOV PAT PSE36 CLFSH DS ACPI MMX FXSR SSE
SS=
>E2 SS HTT TM SSE3 MON DSCPL VMX EST TM2 SSSE3 CX16 TPR PDCM<BR>
> Memory: 2 GB<BR>
> Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz<BR>
> Boot ROM Version: Hack.88Z.int.0sh.061193037 =
>(Award Software International, Inc.)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>On 21/02/08 5:08 PM, in article 47bd0746$1@linux, "James McClosk=
>ey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> Sorry James..<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Not meaning to get personal, Sorry for that.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Yes, I do run Leopard on PC hardware, and it runs floorlessly BTW,=
> but I<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> was<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> running Vista, and my Business machin=
>e at home is running Vista.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I have no complaints really with it...except it's a bit of a memor=
>y hog,<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> but<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> I really like the way that OSX functi=
>ons..it all works, pretty much without<BR>
>>> extra plugins...still needs some though.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Vista is still a little kludgey and when running a few intense pro=
>grams<BR>
>>> together, really bogs down, where leopard seems to fly with the sa=
>me<BR>
>>> hardware... Go figure.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I run Pro Tools in my studio, and that runs way more stably on Tig=
>er, (no<BR>
>>> Leopard drivers yet), than it ever did on XP, although I haven't g=
>ot round<BR>
>>> to getting many OSX plugins yet.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> The other program I'm starting to respect more is Soundtrack Pro, =
>Dinky<BR>
>>> graphics but well appointed especially for the Post work that I do=
>.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Again, sorry for getting personal, but maybe it's time to give it =
>a rest....<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Martin Harrington <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
>> Martin, apology accepted, and I want to thank you for your honesty abo=
>ut<BR>
>> what you use and your preferences. I find it vary interesting th=
>at you are<BR>
>> able to run Mac OSX on PC hardware. I don't know who else would =
>be <BR>
>> interested,<BR>
>> but it would be great if you would post your setup again and what you
=
>had<BR>
>> to do to get it running.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Some times the old NG gets a little boring, a little heated debate isn=
>'t<BR>
>> all bad. I'm with Kim, this dead horse belongs on the general NG=
>. And yes,<BR>
>> I'm ready to give it a rest, if everybody else is. ?<BR>
>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> On 21/02/08 10:56 AM, in article 47bcb00c$1@linux, "James &nb=
>sp;McCloskey"<BR>
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR>
>>>> Hey I'm not riled up, I'm just setting things strait. Wh=
>en I see or hear<BR>
>>>> the same old lies like Apple stole the GUI from Xerox PARC I'l=
>l set you<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> strait<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> because it's not true. When=
> People say Apple is just as bad as Microsoft<BR>
>>>> when it comes to ethical business practices, I'll speak up bec=
>ause it's<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> not<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> true also. I've ask for exa=
>mples of Apple doing the same kind of stuff.<BR>
>>>> I know Apple has done somethings that I don't care for m=
>yself, but you<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> can't<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> say Apple is just as bad as Micro=
>soft.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> I always hear something stupid like, somebody wanting to buy m=
>ovies from<BR>
>>>> the iTunes store to play on their MS Zune ( an MS rip off of t=
>he iPod).<BR>
>>>> You can't put a Chevy tailgate on your Ford truck either, so w=
>hat.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> Martin, aren't you the guy that runs Mac OSX on PC hardware? &=
>nbsp;What's wrong<BR>
>>>> with Vista?<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> By the way you starting to get personal, Martin.<BR>
>>>> <BR>
>>>> Martin Harrington <lendan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:<B=
>R>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> James, you really are a sad l=
>ittle man.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> How anything, let alone a couple of monopolistic computer =
>companies,<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> can<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> get<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> someone riled up as much as y=
>ou get, is beyond belief.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> You act like Apple is your baby, and you'll fiercely defen=
>d it to the<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> death<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> <BR>
>>>>> BTW, regarding apple being sued by Apple Records, (a=
>nd quite rightly<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> so,<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> )....<BR>
>>>>> You just watch apple pounce on anyone that dares copy thei=
>r hardware<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> or<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> use<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> any resemblance to their name=
>.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> Martin Harrington<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> On 20/02/08 8:32 PM, in article 47bbe589$1@linux, "Ja=
>mes McCloskey"<BR>
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> Apple Computer was sued by Apple Records in what I wou=
>ld call a greedy<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> and<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> frivolous law suit. =
>;It's a big stretch to say that people got the two<BR>
>>>>>> companies<BR>
>>>>>> confused leading to a loss in sales. It's ridicu=
>lous to say that Apple<BR>
>>>>>> records<BR>
>>>>>> has an exclusive right to the common name Apple. =
>;That would be like<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> a<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> zoo<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> saying they have an exclu=
>sive right to the name impala.<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> Apple Paid Apple records 20 million to settle out. &nb=
>sp;Apple did agree<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> not<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> to<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> enter the record company =
>business, so Apple records sued Apple computer<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> again<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> when Apple started iTunes=
>. Is Best Buy or Circuit City in the the record<BR>
>>>>>> company business? Well neither was Apple Compute=
>r. Apple had a right<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> to<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> resell music or recording=
>s just like best buy or mp3.com, there was<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> nothing<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> unethical about it. =
>;Apple records filed another frivolous law suit<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> against<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> Apple computer. I d=
>o not believe the results of that suit were disclosed,<BR>
>>>>>> however it sounds like Apple Computer did Ok.<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> By the way, wasn't this about Vista? Vista still=
> sucks; )<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> "Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude>=
>; wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>> Come now ... if we're talking ethical standards ri=
>ddle me 2 things,<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> early<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> history:<BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> How did the Apple Lisa get it's name?<BR>
>>>>>>> Who fired Steve Jobs, and why was he pushed out of=
> the Apple Lisa <BR>
>>>>>>> project?<BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> The funny thing about humanity and ethics is they =
>usually leave the<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> room<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> to <BR>
>>>>>>> make more space for money and greed when the word =
>'corporate' gets<BR>
>>>>>>> involved.<BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> Now, I'm not sayin Gates is a saint (or Ballmer), =
>hardly that, but<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> it's<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> rather obvious that Apple doesn't mind strong armi=
>ng folks either.<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> Let's<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> take iTunes. Apple and Apple Records had an agreem=
>ent. One conveniently<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> forgotten by Jobs that he later got to pay for. Jo=
>bs will tell you<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> he<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> saved<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> the record business. I bet the fat cats on boards =
>at labels have a<BR>
>>>>>>> different<BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> song. (On the other end, the Zune is a failure IMO=
>) My perspective<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> is<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>>> different than both t=
>hose parties. Everybody has their truth.<BR>
>>>>>>> But to say Apple or MS either one are ethical is a=
> tall order, and<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> it's<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> strictly a matter of power to push the smaller one=
>s around. MS just<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> has<BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>>> more <BR>
>>>>>>> power.<BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> Just a little levity.<BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
>>>>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>
></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR>
></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
></BODY>
></HTML>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96149 is a reply to message #96145] |
Thu, 21 February 2008 14:50 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
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|
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
I
>
>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and UMaxx
>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>
>
Bro that's business. Apple was being damaged by that deal, it was cannibalizing
Apple's sale. Apple chose to no longer renew the licensing. All of those
companies knew that was a possibility going in, that's business. Apple had
a responsibility to their share holders.
I believe the cloners could have kept going even with out Apple's support,
but they chose not to. There was talk of that, but it never happened. They
stopped around Mac OS 8, my clones run OS9.22 just fine, so they could have
kept going, they would have had to pay $99.00 to $129.00 for the OS. They
didn't have to fold up shop.
I do think it suck, remember I was a dealer for all the clones, it was the
beginning of the the end as a computer dealer for me, but that was a good
thing.
I don't think it was unethical, I believe it was just an unfortunate business
situation.
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96160 is a reply to message #96149] |
Thu, 21 February 2008 21:29 |
Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
So when Apple screws someone it's "business".
OK then.
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bdf22c$1@linux...
>
> "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
> I
>>
>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
>>UMaxx
>
>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>>
>>
>
> Bro that's business. Apple was being damaged by that deal, it was
> cannibalizing
> Apple's sale. Apple chose to no longer renew the licensing. All of those
> companies knew that was a possibility going in, that's business. Apple
> had
> a responsibility to their share holders.
>
> I believe the cloners could have kept going even with out Apple's support,
> but they chose not to. There was talk of that, but it never happened.
> They
> stopped around Mac OS 8, my clones run OS9.22 just fine, so they could
> have
> kept going, they would have had to pay $99.00 to $129.00 for the OS. They
> didn't have to fold up shop.
>
> I do think it suck, remember I was a dealer for all the clones, it was the
> beginning of the the end as a computer dealer for me, but that was a good
> thing.
>
> I don't think it was unethical, I believe it was just an unfortunate
> business
> situation.
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96162 is a reply to message #96161] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 01:33 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Neil" <OIOI@OUI.com> wrote:
>
>"Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>So when Apple screws someone it's "business".
>>
>>OK then.
>
>
>And when Msoft does business, it's "screwing somebody"...
>yeah, good thing James is unbiased & doesn't believe in
>applying double-standards or anything like that.
>
>LOL!
>
>Neil
Yeah, Microsoft never screws anybody.
Apple was ailing because of a bad deal. Apple got a new CEO and had to take
a new direction to survive. MS wasn't ailing when they told system builders
that if they put Netscape Navigator on systems instead of IE they would pull
all MS products from them. MS never threatens or screws anybody, yeah right!
No double standards here, I think it's different, Apple did what they had
to do to survive. They didn't "pull" the licensing, They just didn't renew
the licensing when they had a major upgrade to the OS. The cloners could
have stayed in the game, but they would have to pay a higher price for the
OS, boohoo. The cloners weren't going to be able to make a killing on the
sale of clones at Apple's expense anymore. The cloners did not grow the
market for the Mac platform, some of the responsibility also falls on them,
they had their chance.
MS giving IE for free in order to put Netscape out of business. How about
when MS created a proprietary Microsoft version of JAVA that was incompatible
with SUN standards. MS wrote tons of ambiguous lines of code in to their
versions of Office for Mac so it would run slow. MS, always trying to control
and damage others. What about MS taking the look and features from Mac OSX
down to aqua icons for Vista? Shouldn't they have to pay for that? It is
a blatant rip off. MS has to copy and rip others off, they have no original
ideas of their own.
Do you guys like what MS did to Vista? Do you guys like the way Vista Works?
Do you AV guys feel like MS Vista is too controlling? Do you like that
MS is kind of insistent that OEM system builders install Vista? In some
cases, if you buy a OEM machine, you have to pay for vista, is that Ok?
Go in to best buy and tell them you want a machine with Windows XP on it,
they'll tell you you can buy a copy of XP. Do you like all the Vista support?
How's Vista working out for pro audio? Back to the Future with Windows
XP! It's got more holes in it than Swiss cheese, but hey, that's all you
PC guys got!
How's Mac OSX for audio? Mac OSX Rocks!!!!!
Keep sucking on Vista!
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96164 is a reply to message #96145] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 03:13 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
I
>
>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and UMaxx
>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>
>
Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users they
would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal with
IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
cost Apple sales.
Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the licensing
with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,
they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were going
to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the end,
Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng
to take care of his workers from there.
As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other products
as they did before they made clones.
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96166 is a reply to message #96162] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 05:15 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dude, you're killing me with your Mac love. You and your Mac need to get
a room.
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Neil" <OIOI@OUI.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>So when Apple screws someone it's "business".
>>>
>>>OK then.
>>
>>
>>And when Msoft does business, it's "screwing somebody"...
>>yeah, good thing James is unbiased & doesn't believe in
>>applying double-standards or anything like that.
>>
>>LOL!
>>
>>Neil
>
>
>
>Yeah, Microsoft never screws anybody.
>
>Apple was ailing because of a bad deal. Apple got a new CEO and had to
take
>a new direction to survive. MS wasn't ailing when they told system builders
>that if they put Netscape Navigator on systems instead of IE they would
pull
>all MS products from them. MS never threatens or screws anybody, yeah right!
>
>No double standards here, I think it's different, Apple did what they had
>to do to survive. They didn't "pull" the licensing, They just didn't renew
>the licensing when they had a major upgrade to the OS. The cloners could
>have stayed in the game, but they would have to pay a higher price for the
>OS, boohoo. The cloners weren't going to be able to make a killing on the
>sale of clones at Apple's expense anymore. The cloners did not grow the
>market for the Mac platform, some of the responsibility also falls on them,
>they had their chance.
>
>MS giving IE for free in order to put Netscape out of business. How about
>when MS created a proprietary Microsoft version of JAVA that was incompatible
>with SUN standards. MS wrote tons of ambiguous lines of code in to their
>versions of Office for Mac so it would run slow. MS, always trying to control
>and damage others. What about MS taking the look and features from Mac
OSX
>down to aqua icons for Vista? Shouldn't they have to pay for that? It
is
>a blatant rip off. MS has to copy and rip others off, they have no original
>ideas of their own.
>
>Do you guys like what MS did to Vista? Do you guys like the way Vista Works?
> Do you AV guys feel like MS Vista is too controlling? Do you like that
>MS is kind of insistent that OEM system builders install Vista? In some
>cases, if you buy a OEM machine, you have to pay for vista, is that Ok?
>Go in to best buy and tell them you want a machine with Windows XP on it,
>they'll tell you you can buy a copy of XP. Do you like all the Vista support?
> How's Vista working out for pro audio? Back to the Future with Windows
>XP! It's got more holes in it than Swiss cheese, but hey, that's all you
>PC guys got!
>
>
>How's Mac OSX for audio? Mac OSX Rocks!!!!!
>
>Keep sucking on Vista!
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96170 is a reply to message #96167] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 06:33 |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi John,
It does come close to that. Actually 128 is the sweet spot it seemed on
the 8 core Xeon I've been testing. But I think that is mostly to do with
the Software application being used.
Been rebuilding a customers system that they had built by some non DAW
white box type company.
He is using a 5400 chipset board with 2x 5450 CPUs 8 gigs of ram Quadro
nvs440 4 head video card, RME Madi card, Sonar 7 64, NI Komplete 5, and
Vienna Cube with the 64 plug in for it.
NI stuff is using approx 2.5 gigs and Vienna is using 5 gigs. Sonar is
the only thing that is a pain in the setup. Thats mainly from numerous
bugs in 7, it's over usability or lack there of. When ever I get mad at
something Steinberg does all I have to do is launch Sonar and get
reminded of why I use Cubase.:)
Chris
John wrote:
> .03ms? hmmm
>
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Deej,
>>
>> Deej wrote:
>>
>>> I'm running Vista with 64GB of RAM a PC running dual quads at 0.03ms latency
>>>
>
>
>>> on and I've never had a single crash...
>>>
>> I bet if you were using XP Pro 64 bit you could actually come close to
>> doing just that. But Lil Steve and Billy think it is a better idea that
>>
>
>
>> you us Vista.
>>
>>> and it never will crash because I
>>> built it and therefore it is perfect.
>>>
>> perfect is boring....
>>
>>> In comparison, OSX runs like the shit
>>> that shit shits.
>>>
>>> Mr. Simplicity
>>>
>>>
>>> "rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:onkqr3d6a5fbv1g0re9e085otbpdd7497d@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>> a lovely plan indeed.
>>>>
>>>> On 21 Feb 2008 03:48:46 +1000, "John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just run in the middle stir it up and haul butt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> Chris Ludwig
>> ADK
>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>> www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>> (859) 635-5762
>>
>
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK
chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
(859) 635-5762
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96172 is a reply to message #96164] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 07:12 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bea04e$1@linux...
>
> "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
> How about the time they pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
> UMaxx
>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
> Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
> be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
> advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
> in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
> they
> would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
> with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
> Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
> with
> IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
> cost Apple sales.
Sounds like Apple made a deal to me that they couldn't handle and
shut it down at the earliest opp regardless of the backlash and damages
incurred. How are you not seein' that bro?
> Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
> prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
> licensing
> with Mac OS 8.
Um, they HAD a deal already? One Jobs/Apple had already agreed to.
If indeed Apple couldn't stand the weather of competition in their
market, that's what they should've changed. Jacking the price way up after
getting an industry dependant doesn't seem all that ethical to me. Just
cutting them off at the neck is definitely not when considering they already
had a deal.
> Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
> build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,
> they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
> going
> to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
> end,
> Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
> I think that was pretty generous of Apple.
Sounds like the classic "join us or be killed or bought out"
Microsoft manuever. You know, kinda like (n).
I believe it was up to Kahng
> to take care of his workers from there.
> As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
> products
> as they did before they made clones.
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96175 is a reply to message #96163] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 10:33 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Black and white thinking would be:
-Microsoft is horrible and Apple is perfect.
Nobody is saying that, either. Not even James.
Or:
-Microsoft is horrible and Apple is equally horrible.
A few people seem to be saying that. But that sounds like a
rationalization to gloss over Microsoft's repeated bad behavior.
IMO, Microsoft has done some thing right, some things wrong, but have
demonstrated a pervasive lack of respect for business ethics (yes, there
is such a thing :^) and a lack of respect for the law which the record
shows has crossed over the line into criminal behavior. They did, after
all lose a criminal court case over the Netscape thing, and they also
ended up paying some millions to Be for Microsoft's illegal market
interference that drove BeOS out of the market, (a real loss for media
producers BTW). Microsoft's shenanigans are legendary and haven't stopped.
OTOH, Apple has pulled some boneheaded moves along the way. The example
with hardware OEMs being one. And _their_ treatment of Be being another.
Also the years wasted trying to get past OS9 before finally bringing
in NeXT. However, AFAIK, Apple did not do anything criminal in those cases.
Both companies flirted with ethical impropriety with stock options, and
both have changed their policies there. Apple perhaps worse on that one,
I think several people left Apple in a legal cloud over that issue.
Whereas I don't think anyone left Microsoft over responsibility for any
of their criminal transgressions. AFAIK, at Microsoft no one has taken
responsibility, _ever_, for anything. Microsoft just seems to pay the
fines as a cost of doing business while aggressively manipulating the
system to reduce the consequences for their questionable actions.
On the plus side, Microsoft has contributed to making the computer
business into a commodity business with downward price pressures. This
is beneficial, to a point, but the "Microsoft tax" also adds to the
cost, sometimes even for those using, say, Linux. And currently
Microsoft is pushing their user base to adopt a new OS that is less
robust than their previous version and apparently a step backwards for
media producers.
On the plus side, Apple has built a business that pays attention to
media producers, from the production side through the distribution side,
and for that they deserve some amount of credit from folks like us. And
on some of their pro products, hardware and software, the pricing is
actually a better deal than other options. OTOH, for some products it's
not a better deal, and sometimes Apple's increasing consumer orientation
seems a distraction from the pro side.
From my experience, I've had personal responses from Apple which
demonstrate that they are generally focused on getting things right with
their media production products. While they do rush out buggy software
sometimes, they have improved their products immensely over the years
that I've been using them. They do listen to users and some of their
products have earned their reputation as industry standards for media
production.
Overall, it would be far too simplistic to say that one of these
companies is just as bad as another. In my view, between the two,
Microsoft clearly takes the "prize" for unethical behavior. While at the
same time Apple is not perfect.
But if that's too "nuanced" then yeah, they both suck. ;^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Kim wrote:
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, Microsoft never screws anybody.
>
> Dude, NOBODY is saying that.
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96177 is a reply to message #96164] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 12:25 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me into the
ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but I could
afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer audio.
Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I realized, 'Hey,
these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows hardware
is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron + Paris,
and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart, talented, agile
hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because they were
everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and customer
oriented.
TCB
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
> I
>>
>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
UMaxx
>
>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>>
>>
>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users they
>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
with
>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
>cost Apple sales.
>
>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the licensing
>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,
>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
going
>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
end,
>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng
>to take care of his workers from there.
>
>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
products
>as they did before they made clones.
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96181 is a reply to message #96177] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 13:27 |
Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Me too. the Powercomputing machines were kicking the Apple machines
collective arsses all over the map performance wise. I was about ready to
pull the trigger on a Powercomputing ruig for Paris when Jobs pulled this
little game. when that happened I saw absolutely no difference at all in
Apple and MS from an ethics POV and many more advantages with going PC
instead of buying into a proprietary OS that was lying about it's
performance specs while screwing it's user base by charging three times the
price for a mediocre machine.
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:47bf218e$1@linux...
>
> For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me into
> the
> ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but I
> could
> afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer
> audio.
> Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I realized,
> 'Hey,
> these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows
> hardware
> is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron +
> Paris,
> and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
>
> Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart, talented,
> agile
> hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because they
> were
> everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and customer
> oriented.
>
> TCB
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
>> I
>>>
>>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
> UMaxx
>>
>>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>>>
>>>
>>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
>>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
>>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
>>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
>>they
>>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
>> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
>>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
>>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
> with
>>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
>>cost Apple sales.
>>
>>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
>>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
>>licensing
>>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
>>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,
>>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
> going
>>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
> end,
>>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
>
>>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng
>>to take care of his workers from there.
>>
>>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
> products
>>as they did before they made clones.
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96183 is a reply to message #96177] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 14:55 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yes PowerComputing made some great machines, with the help of Apple! PowerComputing
also had an advantage over Apple in that they got faster processors from
IBM months before Apple did, as I stated.
Vista is a vary poor imitation of Mac OSX! Vista still sucks!
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me into
the
>ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but I
could
>afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer audio.
>Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I realized,
'Hey,
>these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows hardware
>is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron + Paris,
>and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
>
>Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart, talented,
agile
>hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because they
were
>everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and customer
>oriented.
>
>TCB
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
>> I
>>>
>>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
>UMaxx
>>
>>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>>>
>>>
>>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
>>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
>>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
>>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
they
>>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
>> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
>>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
>>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
>with
>>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
>>cost Apple sales.
>>
>>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
>>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the licensing
>>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
>>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS 8,
>>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
>going
>>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
>end,
>>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
>
>>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng
>>to take care of his workers from there.
>>
>>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
>products
>>as they did before they made clones.
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96184 is a reply to message #96181] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 15:01 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Deej, you obviously see things the way you want to see them, however, there
is absolutely a difference between Apple and Microsoft when it comes to business
ethics. By the way, Vista still sucks! Buy a Mac!
"Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>Me too. the Powercomputing machines were kicking the Apple machines
>collective arsses all over the map performance wise. I was about ready to
>pull the trigger on a Powercomputing ruig for Paris when Jobs pulled this
>little game. when that happened I saw absolutely no difference at all in
>Apple and MS from an ethics POV and many more advantages with going PC
>instead of buying into a proprietary OS that was lying about it's
>performance specs while screwing it's user base by charging three times
the
>price for a mediocre machine.
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:47bf218e$1@linux...
>>
>> For the record, it was what Apple did to the cloners that drove me into
>> the
>> ever welcoming arms of Redmond. I couldn't afford Apple hardware, but
I
>> could
>> afford a Power 603e machine that was my first experience with computer
>> audio.
>> Less than a year after that Apple shut down the cloners and I realized,
>> 'Hey,
>> these are greedy corporate bastards just like Microsoft. And Windows
>> hardware
>> is cheap and I can build my own.' Which lead me to a 400 Mhz Celeron +
>> Paris,
>> and the rest is (grim, money losing, book publishing) history.
>>
>> Your story is one version. Another is that Power was a smart, talented,
>> agile
>> hardware vendor who was beating the daylights out of Apple because they
>> were
>> everything Apple had long since ceased to be--entrepreneurial and customer
>> oriented.
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
>>> I
>>>>
>>>>How about the time the pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
>> UMaxx
>>>
>>>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
>>>be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
>>>advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
>>>in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
>>>they
>>>would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
>>> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
>>>with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
>>>Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
>> with
>>>IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
>>>cost Apple sales.
>>>
>>>Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
>>>prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
>>>licensing
>>>with Mac OS 8. Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
>>>build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS
8,
>>>they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
>> going
>>>to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
>> end,
>>>Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
>>
>>>I think that was pretty generous of Apple. I believe it was up to Kahng
>>>to take care of his workers from there.
>>>
>>>As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
>> products
>>>as they did before they made clones.
>>
>
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96185 is a reply to message #96175] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 15:04 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jamie, I totally agree with you. No Apple is not perfect. Macs are not perfect,
they just look that way sitting next to a Windoz box!
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Black and white thinking would be:
>
> -Microsoft is horrible and Apple is perfect.
>
>Nobody is saying that, either. Not even James.
>
>Or:
>
> -Microsoft is horrible and Apple is equally horrible.
>
>A few people seem to be saying that. But that sounds like a
>rationalization to gloss over Microsoft's repeated bad behavior.
>
>IMO, Microsoft has done some thing right, some things wrong, but have
>demonstrated a pervasive lack of respect for business ethics (yes, there
>is such a thing :^) and a lack of respect for the law which the record
>shows has crossed over the line into criminal behavior. They did, after
>all lose a criminal court case over the Netscape thing, and they also
>ended up paying some millions to Be for Microsoft's illegal market
>interference that drove BeOS out of the market, (a real loss for media
>producers BTW). Microsoft's shenanigans are legendary and haven't stopped.
>
>OTOH, Apple has pulled some boneheaded moves along the way. The example
>with hardware OEMs being one. And _their_ treatment of Be being another.
> Also the years wasted trying to get past OS9 before finally bringing
>in NeXT. However, AFAIK, Apple did not do anything criminal in those cases.
>
>Both companies flirted with ethical impropriety with stock options, and
>both have changed their policies there. Apple perhaps worse on that one,
>I think several people left Apple in a legal cloud over that issue.
>Whereas I don't think anyone left Microsoft over responsibility for any
>of their criminal transgressions. AFAIK, at Microsoft no one has taken
>responsibility, _ever_, for anything. Microsoft just seems to pay the
>fines as a cost of doing business while aggressively manipulating the
>system to reduce the consequences for their questionable actions.
>
>On the plus side, Microsoft has contributed to making the computer
>business into a commodity business with downward price pressures. This
>is beneficial, to a point, but the "Microsoft tax" also adds to the
>cost, sometimes even for those using, say, Linux. And currently
>Microsoft is pushing their user base to adopt a new OS that is less
>robust than their previous version and apparently a step backwards for
>media producers.
>
>On the plus side, Apple has built a business that pays attention to
>media producers, from the production side through the distribution side,
>and for that they deserve some amount of credit from folks like us. And
>on some of their pro products, hardware and software, the pricing is
>actually a better deal than other options. OTOH, for some products it's
>not a better deal, and sometimes Apple's increasing consumer orientation
>seems a distraction from the pro side.
>
> From my experience, I've had personal responses from Apple which
>demonstrate that they are generally focused on getting things right with
>their media production products. While they do rush out buggy software
>sometimes, they have improved their products immensely over the years
>that I've been using them. They do listen to users and some of their
>products have earned their reputation as industry standards for media
>production.
>
>Overall, it would be far too simplistic to say that one of these
>companies is just as bad as another. In my view, between the two,
>Microsoft clearly takes the "prize" for unethical behavior. While at the
>same time Apple is not perfect.
>
>But if that's too "nuanced" then yeah, they both suck. ;^)
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>
>Kim wrote:
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah, Microsoft never screws anybody.
>>
>> Dude, NOBODY is saying that.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96186 is a reply to message #96166] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 15:10 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"John" <no@no.com> wrote:
>
>Dude, you're killing me with your Mac love. You and your Mac need to get
>a room.
>
Don't forget, I use Windows XP also. Hmmm, I wonder why MS didn't name it
Windows 2001? Maybe it had something to do with Mac OS"X" XPC would have
been too obvious, maybe XP for short, how original.
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Neil" <OIOI@OUI.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>So when Apple screws someone it's "business".
>>>>
>>>>OK then.
>>>
>>>
>>>And when Msoft does business, it's "screwing somebody"...
>>>yeah, good thing James is unbiased & doesn't believe in
>>>applying double-standards or anything like that.
>>>
>>>LOL!
>>>
>>>Neil
>>
>>
>>
>>Yeah, Microsoft never screws anybody.
>>
>>Apple was ailing because of a bad deal. Apple got a new CEO and had to
>take
>>a new direction to survive. MS wasn't ailing when they told system builders
>>that if they put Netscape Navigator on systems instead of IE they would
>pull
>>all MS products from them. MS never threatens or screws anybody, yeah
right!
>>
>>No double standards here, I think it's different, Apple did what they had
>>to do to survive. They didn't "pull" the licensing, They just didn't renew
>>the licensing when they had a major upgrade to the OS. The cloners could
>>have stayed in the game, but they would have to pay a higher price for
the
>>OS, boohoo. The cloners weren't going to be able to make a killing on
the
>>sale of clones at Apple's expense anymore. The cloners did not grow the
>>market for the Mac platform, some of the responsibility also falls on them,
>>they had their chance.
>>
>>MS giving IE for free in order to put Netscape out of business. How about
>>when MS created a proprietary Microsoft version of JAVA that was incompatible
>>with SUN standards. MS wrote tons of ambiguous lines of code in to their
>>versions of Office for Mac so it would run slow. MS, always trying to
control
>>and damage others. What about MS taking the look and features from Mac
>OSX
>>down to aqua icons for Vista? Shouldn't they have to pay for that? It
>is
>>a blatant rip off. MS has to copy and rip others off, they have no original
>>ideas of their own.
>>
>>Do you guys like what MS did to Vista? Do you guys like the way Vista
Works?
>> Do you AV guys feel like MS Vista is too controlling? Do you like that
>>MS is kind of insistent that OEM system builders install Vista? In some
>>cases, if you buy a OEM machine, you have to pay for vista, is that Ok?
>
>>Go in to best buy and tell them you want a machine with Windows XP on it,
>>they'll tell you you can buy a copy of XP. Do you like all the Vista support?
>> How's Vista working out for pro audio? Back to the Future with Windows
>>XP! It's got more holes in it than Swiss cheese, but hey, that's all you
>>PC guys got!
>>
>>
>>How's Mac OSX for audio? Mac OSX Rocks!!!!!
>>
>>Keep sucking on Vista!
>
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| Re: vista where are we now ? [message #96188 is a reply to message #96172] |
Fri, 22 February 2008 15:50 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aaron,
Gil Amelio made that deal. Apple's board canned Amelio and brought Jobs
back to turn the company around, the share holders wanted it. Jobs tried
to work with the cloners, it was going to be necessary to raise the licensing
cost. The cloners had a sweet deal and were not willing to pay anymore.
OS 8 was a major revision to the OS and was long over due by 1997. Apple
did not break any agreements with the cloners, they were licensed for all
OS 7 revisions. As I stated, the cloners could have kept creating and building
Mac clones, they chose not to. OS 8 and 9 ran fine on the clones. They
could have actually continued to build machines up to today for Mac OSX with
the open boot ROM. instead, they all got mad and took their ball home.
The ending of the cloning sucked, but it was necessary to Apples survival,
and in hind sight it was the right decision. Apple has been prosperous ever
since. I was a dealer for all the cloners, it was no fun at the time for
me personally. If you don't know the details it looks like it was a raw
deal, but there is more to it than that. If the cloners would have advertised
more and gained market share, and if they would have negotiated the royalty
rate, Apple might not have moved on.
Apple bought out PowerComputing well after the cloning ended, it wasn't a
"join us or be killed" thing. Like I said, PowerComputing started in to
building PCs after they stopped building Mac clones.
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:47bea04e$1@linux...
>>
>> "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:47bba823$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Ok, can you give me a legitimate example of Apple buying market share?
>> How about the time they pulled the OS licensing from PowerComputing and
>> UMaxx
>>>and closed two entire companies and threw all those folks out of work.
>
>> Deej since you mentioned PowerComputing,there are a few things that should
>> be noted. As I've said, the cloners ate in to Apple's sales. The clones
>> advertised mainly in Mac publications to Mac users, If they had advertised
>> in PC publications and did other forms of advertising to non Mac users
>> they
>> would have grown the market. They didn't, they cherry picked Apple sales.
>> One such famous incident was when PowerComputing was directly competing
>> with Apple by selling 3000 clones to Apple's long time customer Lockheed
>> Martin, that didn't go over to well. PowerComputing also worked a deal
>> with
>> IBM to get the fastest PowerPC processors before Apple could, this further
>> cost Apple sales.
>
> Sounds like Apple made a deal to me that they couldn't handle and
>shut it down at the earliest opp regardless of the backlash and damages
>incurred. How are you not seein' that bro?
>
>> Steve Jobs went to all the cloners and tried to renegotiate the licensing
>> prices, the cloners wouldn't hear of it, so Apple did not renew the
>> licensing
>> with Mac OS 8.
>
> Um, they HAD a deal already? One Jobs/Apple had already agreed to.
> If indeed Apple couldn't stand the weather of competition in their
>market, that's what they should've changed. Jacking the price way up after
>getting an industry dependant doesn't seem all that ethical to me. Just
>cutting them off at the neck is definitely not when considering they already
>had a deal.
>
>> Apple did not pull the licensing. The cloners could still
>> build systems and ship them with Mac OS 7.6 installed, and bundled OS
8,
>> they chose not to. PowerComputing announced after that, that they were
>> going
>> to start building PCs, which I think they did for a short time. In the
>> end,
>> Apple bought out PowerComputing for 100 million dollars in Apple stock.
>> I think that was pretty generous of Apple.
>
> Sounds like the classic "join us or be killed or bought out"
>Microsoft manuever. You know, kinda like (n).
>
>I believe it was up to Kahng
>> to take care of his workers from there.
>> As far as UMAX, they continued on for years building scanners and other
>> products
>> as they did before they made clones.
>
>
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