Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Another "greatest of all time" list
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69865 is a reply to message #69851] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 10:40   |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands of all
time.
This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84. My
brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the same
time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A New
Drug by Huey Lewis.
A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had improved
a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin Gaye,
Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie Wilson,
Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith, Dokken,
Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands were
lookedover.
I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had a
big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe in
the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith at
the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s bands
that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included, but
of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but he was
a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP MUSIC
HALL OF FAME.
One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition going
to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week before
the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now it's
next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong people
always seem to get in charge of things.
Oh anyways; )
James
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>***
>
>See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>i pay all that much attention to.
>
>I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>to agree with.
>
>Best Straight-ahead Rock
>Best Soul/Motown
>Best Jazz
>Best Progressive Rock
>Best Blues
>Best Pure Country
>Best Crossover Country
>etc., etc.
>
>Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>
>Neil
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69883 is a reply to message #69865] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 08:17 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Hi James,
Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it come
from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles with
a sound of Distorted Guitars.
But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and Chuck
Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more partial
to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a band
could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying that
Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage precision..
It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really is.
More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the "Heart"
than the head.
No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll because,
you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
& Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came from.
Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin, Aerosmiths,eagle,
Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm & Blues.
LaMont
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands of
all
>time.
>
>This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
My
>brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the same
>time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A New
>Drug by Huey Lewis.
>
>A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had improved
>a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
>there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin Gaye,
>Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie Wilson,
>Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith, Dokken,
>Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
>supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands were
>lookedover.
>
>I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had a
>big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe in
>the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
>and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith at
>the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
>about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
bands
>that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included, but
>of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
>
>It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
>AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but he
was
>a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP MUSIC
>HALL OF FAME.
>
>One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition going
>to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week before
>the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
it's
>next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong people
>always seem to get in charge of things.
>
>Oh anyways; )
>
>James
>
>
>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>>***
>>
>>See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>>the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>>taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>>and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>>that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>>compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>>i pay all that much attention to.
>>
>>I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>>list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>>to agree with.
>>
>>Best Straight-ahead Rock
>>Best Soul/Motown
>>Best Jazz
>>Best Progressive Rock
>>Best Blues
>>Best Pure Country
>>Best Crossover Country
>>etc., etc.
>>
>>Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>>criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>>
>>Neil
>>
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69884 is a reply to message #69851] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 08:32 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
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Neil the reason you would not think them is because your definition of Rock
& Roll is of the "Distorted Guitar" form of Rock & Roll.
I grew up in the late 60's- 70's which in my opinion is some the greatest
music ever. My musical exposure growing up in Detroit is vast my many other
musicians coming from other states. In Detroit(inner-city), most of the players
grew up playing Hendrix out the gate right along with Motown, and bebop.
This was expected out of all Detroit Musicians..Now, my buddies accros 8
mile rd (aka the Burb) where ONLY concentrating on the "Hendrix" aspect of
the Rock art form..Hmmmm.. What's the reason for that.
Well, having many buddies rockers across 8 miles(akak the burbs), and afetr
many beers and jam sessions, we on the other side of the tracks (8 mile)
summized that they we just 'LAZY" and playing 3-4 bar chords and "licks was
easier to learn to play. Yep the old Beta vs VHS.
During the 70's in our region and across the US, playing the 3-4 bar chord
was every where. Me and my friends in'The Hood" were deep in studio of the
masters of Jazz,and you were not considered a"serious" musician if all you
played were 3-4 bar chords. By age 15, we were playing all forms of Rock
& Roll and we could go and sit in with any 3-4 bar chord bands and "ripped"
them a knew one :)..
I said all to say, that these kinds of list goes beyond personal taste, but
of the pure "ignorance" of the history of music..
Take care, LaMont
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>***
>
>See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>i pay all that much attention to.
>
>I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>to agree with.
>
>Best Straight-ahead Rock
>Best Soul/Motown
>Best Jazz
>Best Progressive Rock
>Best Blues
>Best Pure Country
>Best Crossover Country
>etc., etc.
>
>Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>
>Neil
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69885 is a reply to message #69883] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 08:40 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
|
|
I have to agree with Neil. It really doesn't make sense to say that R&B and
Rock&Roll are the same thing, or in the same genre. They are separate
genres. They are different branches of the same tree. I don't consider EWF
a rock band in any form. The 50's bands you named are more a basis for the
Beatles than for EWF, imho.
Regards,
Dedric
On 7/2/06 9:17 AM, in article 44a7e38c$1@linux, "LaMont"
<jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> Hi James,
> Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
>
> First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it come
> from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles with
> a sound of Distorted Guitars.
>
> But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and Chuck
> Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
>
> Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more partial
> to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a band
> could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying that
> Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
>
> Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage precision..
>
> It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really is.
>
> More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the "Heart"
> than the head.
>
> No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll because,
> you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
> & Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
> Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came from.
>
>
> Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
> one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
> form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin,
> Aerosmiths,eagle,
> Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm & Blues.
>
> LaMont
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands of
> all
>> time.
>>
>> This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
> My
>> brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
>> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the same
>> time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A New
>> Drug by Huey Lewis.
>>
>> A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had
>> improved
>> a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
>> there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin Gaye,
>> Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie Wilson,
>> Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith,
>> Dokken,
>> Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
>> supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands were
>> lookedover.
>>
>> I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had a
>> big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe in
>> the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
>> and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith at
>> the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
>> about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
> bands
>> that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included, but
>> of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
>>
>> It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
>> AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but he
> was
>> a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP MUSIC
>> HALL OF FAME.
>>
>> One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition going
>> to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week before
>> the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
> it's
>> next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong people
>> always seem to get in charge of things.
>>
>> Oh anyways; )
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>>> ***
>>>
>>> See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>>> the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>>> taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>>> and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>>> that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>>> compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>>> i pay all that much attention to.
>>>
>>> I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>>> list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>>> to agree with.
>>>
>>> Best Straight-ahead Rock
>>> Best Soul/Motown
>>> Best Jazz
>>> Best Progressive Rock
>>> Best Blues
>>> Best Pure Country
>>> Best Crossover Country
>>> etc., etc.
>>>
>>> Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>>> criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>>>
>>> Neil
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69889 is a reply to message #69885] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 10:22 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Dedric,
Rock & Roll are not exclusive to 3 & 4 bar bar chords with distortion..Nor,
does it exclude R & B.. How said "distorted guitars is the sound rock music???
Really who?? I'm sure is was not the founding fathers of Rock & Roll..
Any R& B act can justify using the name genre Rock as any 3/4 bar chord
band..
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>I have to agree with Neil. It really doesn't make sense to say that R&B
and
>Rock&Roll are the same thing, or in the same genre. They are separate
>genres. They are different branches of the same tree. I don't consider
EWF
>a rock band in any form. The 50's bands you named are more a basis for
the
>Beatles than for EWF, imho.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>On 7/2/06 9:17 AM, in article 44a7e38c$1@linux, "LaMont"
><jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi James,
>> Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
>>
>> First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it
come
>> from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles
with
>> a sound of Distorted Guitars.
>>
>> But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and
Chuck
>> Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
>>
>> Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more
partial
>> to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a
band
>> could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying
that
>> Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
>>
>> Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage precision..
>>
>> It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really
is.
>>
>> More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the "Heart"
>> than the head.
>>
>> No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll because,
>> you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
>> & Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
>> Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came from.
>>
>>
>> Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
>> one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
>> form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin,
>> Aerosmiths,eagle,
>> Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm &
Blues.
>>
>> LaMont
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands
of
>> all
>>> time.
>>>
>>> This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
>> My
>>> brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
>>> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the
same
>>> time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A
New
>>> Drug by Huey Lewis.
>>>
>>> A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had
>>> improved
>>> a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
>>> there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin
Gaye,
>>> Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie
Wilson,
>>> Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith,
>>> Dokken,
>>> Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
>>> supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands
were
>>> lookedover.
>>>
>>> I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had
a
>>> big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe
in
>>> the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
>>> and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith
at
>>> the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
>>> about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
>> bands
>>> that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included,
but
>>> of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
>>>
>>> It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
>>> AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but
he
>> was
>>> a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP
MUSIC
>>> HALL OF FAME.
>>>
>>> One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition
going
>>> to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week
before
>>> the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
>> it's
>>> next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong
people
>>> always seem to get in charge of things.
>>>
>>> Oh anyways; )
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>> See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>>>> the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>>>> taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>>>> and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>>>> that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>>>> compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>>>> i pay all that much attention to.
>>>>
>>>> I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>>>> list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>>>> to agree with.
>>>>
>>>> Best Straight-ahead Rock
>>>> Best Soul/Motown
>>>> Best Jazz
>>>> Best Progressive Rock
>>>> Best Blues
>>>> Best Pure Country
>>>> Best Crossover Country
>>>> etc., etc.
>>>>
>>>> Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>>>> criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69890 is a reply to message #69889] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 11:06 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Lamont,
Actually no one said any genre was any specific genre. We all just use
labels the way we perceive them to apply to bands that probably perceive
them completely differently.
These bands and musicians just made the music they liked based on what they
learned, grew up with, and liked listening to. Radio stations, trade rags,
retailers and record labels came up with the names we now debate the meaning
of, with not even a working definition to reference. I think Rolling Stone
has even debated the birth of rock and roll to no conclusion, but really,
who is going to uncover the answers in the back of the book and say, yep,
you're right on that one, but you missed 11, 15, and 26. You get a B- in
rock and roll...but then again, no one's ever gotten an A+. ;-)
Regards,
Dedric
On 7/2/06 11:22 AM, in article 44a800e6$1@linux, "LaMont"
<jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> Hey Dedric,
> Rock & Roll are not exclusive to 3 & 4 bar bar chords with distortion..Nor,
> does it exclude R & B.. How said "distorted guitars is the sound rock music???
> Really who?? I'm sure is was not the founding fathers of Rock & Roll..
>
> Any R& B act can justify using the name genre Rock as any 3/4 bar chord
> band..
>
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> I have to agree with Neil. It really doesn't make sense to say that R&B
> and
>> Rock&Roll are the same thing, or in the same genre. They are separate
>> genres. They are different branches of the same tree. I don't consider
> EWF
>> a rock band in any form. The 50's bands you named are more a basis for
> the
>> Beatles than for EWF, imho.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>> On 7/2/06 9:17 AM, in article 44a7e38c$1@linux, "LaMont"
>> <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi James,
>>> Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
>>>
>>> First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it
> come
>>> from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles
> with
>>> a sound of Distorted Guitars.
>>>
>>> But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and
> Chuck
>>> Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
>>>
>>> Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more
> partial
>>> to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a
> band
>>> could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying
> that
>>> Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
>>>
>>> Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage precision..
>>>
>>> It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really
> is.
>>>
>>> More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the "Heart"
>>> than the head.
>>>
>>> No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll because,
>>> you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
>>> & Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
>>> Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came from.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
>>> one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
>>> form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin,
>>> Aerosmiths,eagle,
>>> Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm &
> Blues.
>>>
>>> LaMont
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands
> of
>>> all
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
>>> My
>>>> brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
>>>> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the
> same
>>>> time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A
> New
>>>> Drug by Huey Lewis.
>>>>
>>>> A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had
>>>> improved
>>>> a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
>>>> there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin
> Gaye,
>>>> Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie
> Wilson,
>>>> Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith,
>>>> Dokken,
>>>> Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
>>>> supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands
> were
>>>> lookedover.
>>>>
>>>> I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had
> a
>>>> big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe
> in
>>>> the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
>>>> and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith
> at
>>>> the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
>>>> about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
>>> bands
>>>> that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included,
> but
>>>> of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
>>>>
>>>> It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
>>>> AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but
> he
>>> was
>>>> a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP
> MUSIC
>>>> HALL OF FAME.
>>>>
>>>> One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition
> going
>>>> to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week
> before
>>>> the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
>>> it's
>>>> next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong
> people
>>>> always seem to get in charge of things.
>>>>
>>>> Oh anyways; )
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>>>>> ***
>>>>>
>>>>> See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>>>>> the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>>>>> taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>>>>> and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>>>>> that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>>>>> compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>>>>> i pay all that much attention to.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>>>>> list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>>>>> to agree with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Straight-ahead Rock
>>>>> Best Soul/Motown
>>>>> Best Jazz
>>>>> Best Progressive Rock
>>>>> Best Blues
>>>>> Best Pure Country
>>>>> Best Crossover Country
>>>>> etc., etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>>>>> criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
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|
| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69893 is a reply to message #69883] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 12:40 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey LaMont!
First let me say I own some EWF records and have been a fan since the 70s.
It's news to me that they are a rock band! To me they don't sound like
a rock band. I've never heard of them being labeled as a rock band. I've
never heard them played on a rock and roll radio station.
Like I say, it's all subjective. I'll name three bands, Iron Maiden, Chicago,
and the B-52s. Are they rock? Are they all derived from the blues? Is
one more pure rock and roll than the others? Are they all 3-4 bar cord bands?
I think you can see that there would be a lot of different opinions here.
Led Zeppelin played Reggie, Rock, jazz rock, Country, Metal, Blues, Indian,
middle eastern etc., but in the end most people would call them a rock band.
I think they are considered Rock genera because they were played on rock
stations. That's why I don't think B.B. King is a rock and roller.
It is true that rock and roll started out based on the Blues. I think that
is why people like Mr. Johnson, B.B. King, Muddy Waters and other Blues artist
belong in the R&R hall of fame. I'm just not so sure the Motown artist belong
there. It's my opinion that Motown is a different genera, and is not R&R
and just doesn't belong. I'd be a lot more cool with it if they also inducted
R&R bands that belong there, with out excuse.
Blues scales, Jazz scales and Pentatonic scales are obviously different.
I don't think all rock and roll is based on the blues either. Iron Maiden,
TNT, Queensryche, Yngvwe Malmstein, Tony MacAlpine, Marty Friedman, are not
blues based Rock and Roll, but somebody might differ with me, and somebody
else might say that they are not even rock and roll. Again it's all subjective.
I'll agree that EWF is a great band. There's no way I could pick just one.
I'll say for R&R, Led Zeppelin has to be up there near the top in my opinion.
When we get to "the best band of all time" we're back to opinions, and everybody's
going to have a different one.
James
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Hi James,
>Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
>
>First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it
come
>from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles
with
>a sound of Distorted Guitars.
>
>But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and Chuck
>Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
>
>Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more partial
>to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a band
>could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying that
>Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
>
>Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage precision..
>
>It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really is.
>
>More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the "Heart"
>than the head.
>
>No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll because,
>you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
>& Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
>Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came from.
>
>
>Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
>one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
>form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin, Aerosmiths,eagle,
>Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm & Blues.
>
>LaMont
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands of
>all
>>time.
>>
>>This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
>My
>>brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four days.
>> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the same
>>time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A New
>>Drug by Huey Lewis.
>>
>>A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had
improved
>>a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am standing
>>there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin
Gaye,
>>Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie Wilson,
>>Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith,
Dokken,
>>Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
>>supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands were
>>lookedover.
>>
>>I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had
a
>>big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe
in
>>the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
>>and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith at
>>the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
>>about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
>bands
>>that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included, but
>>of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
>>
>>It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
>>AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but he
>was
>>a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP
MUSIC
>>HALL OF FAME.
>>
>>One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition
going
>>to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week before
>>the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
>it's
>>next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong people
>>always seem to get in charge of things.
>>
>>Oh anyways; )
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
>>>***
>>>
>>>See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
>>>the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
>>>taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
>>>and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
>>>that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
>>>compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
>>>i pay all that much attention to.
>>>
>>>I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
>>>list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
>>>to agree with.
>>>
>>>Best Straight-ahead Rock
>>>Best Soul/Motown
>>>Best Jazz
>>>Best Progressive Rock
>>>Best Blues
>>>Best Pure Country
>>>Best Crossover Country
>>>etc., etc.
>>>
>>>Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
>>>criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
>>>
>>>Neil
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69896 is a reply to message #69893] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 13:59 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>I'm just not so sure the Motown artist belong there. It's my opinion that
Motown is a different genera, and is not R&R
and just doesn't belong.
Listen To Chain Of fools and Respect by Aretha and tell me that's not rock &
roll. Keep Me Hangin on by The Supremes (not Vanilla Fudge) was Rock & Roll.
Fingers (pt. 2) and I was Born To Love Her by Stevie were rock & roll and
I'm sorry man, but I consider James Brown and Wilson Pickett to be
rockers..............Mustang Sally??? Midnight Hour??? 991/2???
..........those songs rock amigo. EWF and call themselves anything they want.
I'm pretty much in agreement with LaMont about their greatness........though
I think that one man's genre may not be another man's genre. Halls "o Fame
are as much about attracting paying customers as they are about representing
something authentic
;o)
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44a82121$1@linux...
>
> Hey LaMont!
>
> First let me say I own some EWF records and have been a fan since the 70s.
> It's news to me that they are a rock band! To me they don't sound like
> a rock band. I've never heard of them being labeled as a rock band. I've
> never heard them played on a rock and roll radio station.
>
> Like I say, it's all subjective. I'll name three bands, Iron Maiden,
Chicago,
> and the B-52s. Are they rock? Are they all derived from the blues? Is
> one more pure rock and roll than the others? Are they all 3-4 bar cord
bands?
> I think you can see that there would be a lot of different opinions here.
> Led Zeppelin played Reggie, Rock, jazz rock, Country, Metal, Blues,
Indian,
> middle eastern etc., but in the end most people would call them a rock
band.
> I think they are considered Rock genera because they were played on rock
> stations. That's why I don't think B.B. King is a rock and roller.
>
> It is true that rock and roll started out based on the Blues. I think
that
> is why people like Mr. Johnson, B.B. King, Muddy Waters and other Blues
artist
> belong in the R&R hall of fame. I'm just not so sure the Motown artist
belong
> there. It's my opinion that Motown is a different genera, and is not R&R
> and just doesn't belong. I'd be a lot more cool with it if they also
inducted
> R&R bands that belong there, with out excuse.
>
> Blues scales, Jazz scales and Pentatonic scales are obviously different.
> I don't think all rock and roll is based on the blues either. Iron
Maiden,
> TNT, Queensryche, Yngvwe Malmstein, Tony MacAlpine, Marty Friedman, are
not
> blues based Rock and Roll, but somebody might differ with me, and somebody
> else might say that they are not even rock and roll. Again it's all
subjective.
>
>
> I'll agree that EWF is a great band. There's no way I could pick just
one.
> I'll say for R&R, Led Zeppelin has to be up there near the top in my
opinion.
> When we get to "the best band of all time" we're back to opinions, and
everybody's
> going to have a different one.
>
> James
>
> "LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
> >
> >Hi James,
> >Let me reinterate my point in choosing earth Wind And Fire.
> >
> >First you have to define Rock & Roll. What is Rock & Roll? Where did it
> come
> >from? To you and others, Rock & Roll came via the 60's with the Beatles
> with
> >a sound of Distorted Guitars.
> >
> >But, that's not true.. It started in the 50's with Little Richard and
Chuck
> >Berry, Ike Turner..Rock & Roll was formed by Swinging Blues..
> >
> >Now, Earth Wind And Fire was not my favorite band growing up. I'm more
partial
> >to Quincy Jones Brothers Johnson band.. But, when you factor in that a
band
> >could and did cover all the STYLES of Rock & Roll..There's no denying
that
> >Earth Wind and Fire topped the list in all forms.
> >
> >Style, Vocals, Musicianship, Stage Persona, Choreography, Stage
precision..
> >
> >It's insulting to even compare them to a 3-4 bar chord band. It really
is.
> >
> >More often than not, most of these kind of list are voted from the
"Heart"
> >than the head.
> >
> >No, Detroit ( My Home Town) Should not be the home of Rock & Roll
because,
> >you are talking about the "Distorted" Rock & Roll form. The Home of Rock
> >& Roll Should be in Memphis Tennessee or one of those Mississippi towns.
> >Where the 'Founding Fathers of the TRUE art form of Rock & Roll came
from.
> >
> >
> >Let's make this clear..Rock & Roll is Not Distorted guitars. That's only
> >one of it's many derivatives of the form of the Blues, which is the truer
> >form.. Once we get this straight, we can get past the Led Zeppelin,
Aerosmiths,eagle,
> >Kansas and add in more "forms" of Rock & Roll which includes Rhythm &
Blues.
> >
> >LaMont
> >
> >"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>It is vary subjective! It was supposed to be the top ten ROCK bands of
> >all
> >>time.
> >>
> >>This reminds me of when I did a tool show in Cleveland around 1983-84.
>
> >My
> >>brother and I try to find a good rock station on the radio for four
days.
> >> Nothing but Motown! we counted four stations playing My Girl at the
same
> >>time! The heaviest Rock tune I could find on the radio was, I Wand A
New
> >>Drug by Huey Lewis.
> >>
> >>A few years later I went back to Cleveland and rock radio stations had
> improved
> >>a bit. I went to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So there I am
standing
> >>there in front of exhibits for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Marvin
> Gaye,
> >>Smokey Robinson, The Supremes, The Four Tops, Aretha Franklin, Jackie
Wilson,
> >>Berry Gordy, Jr, Dion, etc. I'm thinking where the hell is Aerosmith,
> Dokken,
> >>Journey, ZZ Top, etc? Don't get me wrong, I love Motown, but isn't this
> >>supposed to be the ROCK and roll hall of fame??? A lot of ROCK bands
were
> >>lookedover.
> >>
> >>I was told that the band had to be around for 20 years. They even had
> a
> >>big exhibit for Patty Smith! Like she is some kind of big star, maybe
> in
> >>the UK or something, but come on. I know Patty Smith is from Cleveland
> >>and all, but so what. They didn't even have an exhibit for Aerosmith at
> >>the time! Of course later Aerosmith and ZZ Top were inducted, not sure
> >>about Journey. I don't think Ratt or Dokken or the majority of the 80s
> >bands
> >>that packed arenas have been inducted. The Babies weren't included, but
> >>of course U2 and the cry babies Metallica were.
> >>
> >>It is all vary subjective, I don't think Miles Davis belongs in the ROCK
> >>AND ROLL Hall of fame! That's just my opinion. Miles is great, but he
> >was
> >>a Jazz artist. Hank Williams is country. It should be called the POP
> MUSIC
> >>HALL OF FAME.
> >>
> >>One of our local Detroit DJs at a rock station tried to get a petition
> going
> >>to bring the R&R Hall of fame to Detroit (Rock City). It was a week
before
> >>the decision was made where to put it, but it was way too late. So now
> >it's
> >>next to the mistake on the lake. It just goes to show that the wrong
people
> >>always seem to get in charge of things.
> >>
> >>Oh anyways; )
> >>
> >>James
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>***>No, EWF is thee greatest band of all time..
> >>>***
> >>>
> >>>See, here's the problem when you're attempting to assess the
> >>>the "greatest" ANYTHING... so much of it is subject to personal
> >>>taste. EWF is a band i always thought had great arrangements,
> >>>and i enjoyed a couple of their songs, but isn't even a band
> >>>that would immediately come to mind for me if i were the one
> >>>compiling the list, because they're simply not in a genre that
> >>>i pay all that much attention to.
> >>>
> >>>I think you'd have to narrow the focus more, in order to have a
> >>>list - or set of lists - that people could even remotely begin
> >>>to agree with.
> >>>
> >>>Best Straight-ahead Rock
> >>>Best Soul/Motown
> >>>Best Jazz
> >>>Best Progressive Rock
> >>>Best Blues
> >>>Best Pure Country
> >>>Best Crossover Country
> >>>etc., etc.
> >>>
> >>>Something like that would be a good start, and then apply the
> >>>criteria in each of those columns WITHIN EACH GENRE.
> >>>
> >>>Neil
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
|
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|
| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69901 is a reply to message #69884] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 17:53 |
Dubya Mark Wilson
Messages: 108
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I agree with you Lamont to the extent that "rock" as we 40+ year olds know
it, the 4-chord Neanderthal rock you point to has substantial rooting, in
the core Detroit sound. I lean toward calling the 4-chord stuff "hard"
rock. The Detroit stuff was, by and large, middle of the road "rock" and
"soft rock" and held that turn securely for decades. Musically more complex
and sophisticated than hard rock.
But if you think about it for even a second, the overdriven guitar sounds
(used more as an "effect" which lead to genre in my opinion, rather than the
other way around) in hard rock wouldn't hold up under Amaj7's and Bmin7b5's.
I mean how do you fit blistering square waves into Tears of a Clown? And
where some guys preferred the simpler compositions with the harder sounds
and thrust themselves into anti-establishment movements, thwarting ideas
more than musical genre, other's remained attune to cleaner, less guitar
driven compositions we also call "rock."
Eventually, there was a distinction made both musically (genre) and
culturally (audience preference) and even politically that sent hard rock
(rock's angry little brother) out of town and doiwn the Jersey turnpike. he
eventually left Jersey and went to school and we got Yes, Three Dog Night,
Uriah Heep, James Gang, Johnny Winter, Deringer, Kansas, and many others.
Little Richard is the perfect representation of the first bridge out of
Detroit to Hardrock Cafe. As another more recent example, can anyone
challenge what I am saying here upon observing the career path of Donnie
Osmond from Detroit flavored bubble gum pop "One Bad Apple" in '71 to later
singing with little sis, "I'm a little bit country, and I'm a little bit
rock and roll" with that lyric including this line: "I'm a little bit of
Memphis and Nashville with a little bit of Motown in my soul." Clearly
aimed at the old Motown radio crowd at 2:30 in total length. And not to go
too far out on this limb of thought, but the lyric also includes a line of
questionable origin in the most country sounding tune the Eagles ever did...
guess their tune from the Osmond line: "I like that peaceful easy feeling of
a laid back country song." Am I makin' the case with you yet? Onkay, would
the existence of the Osmond Family Theater in Branson Missouri do it for ya?
I thought so.
Okay, so from that first major splintering of the Detroit sound, some of it
split back toward the older sound in terms of musical composition only --
but not before the dreaded Disco era which to this day keeps from joining
"the Y" and a parting shot from the no longer politically relevant 4-chord
bunch, i.e., Kiss, Bad Company, Golden Earring with the likes of Skynard,
BTO, REO Speedwagon, ZZ Top, & Blue Oyster Cult fitting somewhere in
between. Shortly thereafter, groups like the Eagles, EWF, Fleetwood Mac,
Steely Dan, Queen, White Snake, et al, brought musical sophistication back
to the house of rock's angry little brother, li'l bro embraced it but kept
his dark side and we got another split out of the deal.
One side went on to be AC/DC, Pantera, STP, RAT, Oz, Def Leopard, Stryper,
etc., (Glam rock through Grunt rock with some punk/new wave stirred in for a
needed break in their collective predicatability) the other returned again
vintage flavorings of soft rock (Eagles > Don Henley > Age of Innocence)
(Dylan to Wilburys) (Genesis > Phil Collins) (Eurythmics > Annie Lennox) are
good examples, yet others embarked on a yet two other off shoots of Detroit
heritage.
You had guys like Hornsby coalescing old school rock, soul, R&B with
Detroit's rockin' little brother's "pop" and contemp jazz (which owes its
root to Gospel from which Motown borrowed heavily - touche again Detroit)
into the mix which blurred things to hard rock's advantage because that
distinction remained intact while the bastions of soft rock like M. Bolton
had to start copping the Isley Brothers (back to Detroit one more time) to
keep from sounding too much like the vast sea of "everything else," also
known as "pop" (angry little brother again.) Then, simultaneously, we hit
the doe-eyed blond bombshell era (93-ish) real hard with Carey running up
front while Garth started giving a 2-year New Country (hereafter referred to
as "NC") foothold to some fine females in that genre. Reba busted some
molds to take that and she did it *deliberately* with violins, pedal steels,
cowboy boots and transplanted LA guitars with angry littrle brother's
distorted guitars with big new stetsons hanging off the headstocks.
Oddly now, we've got a split going in the NC genre which is, I remind you,
of Detroit heritage in the first place since because it came from the
marriage of grown-up angry brother to a coal miner's daughter when little
brother's money ran out and Cali dried up and turned expensive compared to
Fanklin and Brentwood TN, not to mention that NC's momma grew up in church
and owes her heritage to Gospel - touche again Detroit.
Nowdays, with the likes of S. Twain getting further and further away from
pedal steel, violins and south of the Mason0Dixon line accent and
southern-phrased story-telling, NC is splitting just like Detroit did 50
years ago. Some of it is moving back toward the hard rock horse it knocked
down in 1991, except now we got a gal on the dark horse and the bat-eating
retirees on reality TV whereas a remnant of NC will move back towards it
roots keeping some of the recent flair brought to it through the
aforementioned marriage to the "pop" version of the grown angry little
brother.
The likes of Tritt, Gill, Reba, Tearwood, Tellis, Jackson, Chesney, Judd's,
etc., won't sell out. Others; Wilson, Urban (Dan Huff producing and
teaching him guitar), Ingram, Dixie Chicks, Rimes, Twain, will take it where
the money and the radio dials go.
So here we are 50 years later, Aretha, timeless as ever cause she never left
us and, in reality, we never left her, musically. We just keep running
circles around it and calling it something different.
If you guys want a real eye-opener on the birth of pop of music in this
country (and the world for that matter) I cannot recommend "Standing in the
Shadows of Motown" highly enough. Sad, happy, astounding, revealing,
enriching. You'll have an appreciation for all these "genres" (and the
people who created them) that you did not have 2 minutes before watching it.
It may even help you break some musical routines in which you feel stuck.
It will also refresh your perspective of how to clinically approach your
production. Ultimately, it all about people communicating to other in this
wonderful medium our creator has given us - not purified sound.
I'll cap this long load with a fitting portion of scripture; Ecclesiatstes 1
: 9 - 11
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done;
there is nothing new under the sun. Is there a thing of which it is said,
"See, this is new"? It has already been, in the ages before us. The people
of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people
yet to come by those who come after them.
Remembering Motown, Rock and it's siblings,
W.
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69906 is a reply to message #69901] |
Sun, 02 July 2006 20:11 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Mark..You stated what I'd been trying to say for a long time concerning
this very matter. For all us 40 somethings, that was a sentimental trip down
our great american msuical hearitage we call "Rock". Rock is for All of us..Rock
is "in" all of us. Rock is America's music in all her forms..
I'll be keeping your post forever!! Thank you ..Thank you Thank you..
Have a great 4th of July..
"Dubya Mark Wilson" <mark.xspam@avidrecording.com> wrote:
>I agree with you Lamont to the extent that "rock" as we 40+ year olds know
>it, the 4-chord Neanderthal rock you point to has substantial rooting, in
>the core Detroit sound. I lean toward calling the 4-chord stuff "hard"
>rock. The Detroit stuff was, by and large, middle of the road "rock" and
>"soft rock" and held that turn securely for decades. Musically more complex
>and sophisticated than hard rock.
>
>But if you think about it for even a second, the overdriven guitar sounds
>(used more as an "effect" which lead to genre in my opinion, rather than
the
>other way around) in hard rock wouldn't hold up under Amaj7's and Bmin7b5's.
>I mean how do you fit blistering square waves into Tears of a Clown? And
>where some guys preferred the simpler compositions with the harder sounds
>and thrust themselves into anti-establishment movements, thwarting ideas
>more than musical genre, other's remained attune to cleaner, less guitar
>driven compositions we also call "rock."
>
>Eventually, there was a distinction made both musically (genre) and
>culturally (audience preference) and even politically that sent hard rock
>(rock's angry little brother) out of town and doiwn the Jersey turnpike.
he
>eventually left Jersey and went to school and we got Yes, Three Dog Night,
>Uriah Heep, James Gang, Johnny Winter, Deringer, Kansas, and many others.
>
>Little Richard is the perfect representation of the first bridge out of
>Detroit to Hardrock Cafe. As another more recent example, can anyone
>challenge what I am saying here upon observing the career path of Donnie
>Osmond from Detroit flavored bubble gum pop "One Bad Apple" in '71 to later
>singing with little sis, "I'm a little bit country, and I'm a little bit
>rock and roll" with that lyric including this line: "I'm a little bit of
>Memphis and Nashville with a little bit of Motown in my soul." Clearly
>aimed at the old Motown radio crowd at 2:30 in total length. And not to
go
>too far out on this limb of thought, but the lyric also includes a line
of
>questionable origin in the most country sounding tune the Eagles ever did...
>guess their tune from the Osmond line: "I like that peaceful easy feeling
of
>a laid back country song." Am I makin' the case with you yet? Onkay, would
>the existence of the Osmond Family Theater in Branson Missouri do it for
ya?
>I thought so.
>
>Okay, so from that first major splintering of the Detroit sound, some of
it
>split back toward the older sound in terms of musical composition only --
>but not before the dreaded Disco era which to this day keeps from joining
>"the Y" and a parting shot from the no longer politically relevant 4-chord
>bunch, i.e., Kiss, Bad Company, Golden Earring with the likes of Skynard,
>BTO, REO Speedwagon, ZZ Top, & Blue Oyster Cult fitting somewhere in
>between. Shortly thereafter, groups like the Eagles, EWF, Fleetwood Mac,
>Steely Dan, Queen, White Snake, et al, brought musical sophistication back
>to the house of rock's angry little brother, li'l bro embraced it but kept
>his dark side and we got another split out of the deal.
>
>One side went on to be AC/DC, Pantera, STP, RAT, Oz, Def Leopard, Stryper,
>etc., (Glam rock through Grunt rock with some punk/new wave stirred in for
a
>needed break in their collective predicatability) the other returned again
>vintage flavorings of soft rock (Eagles > Don Henley > Age of Innocence)
>(Dylan to Wilburys) (Genesis > Phil Collins) (Eurythmics > Annie Lennox)
are
>good examples, yet others embarked on a yet two other off shoots of Detroit
>heritage.
>
>You had guys like Hornsby coalescing old school rock, soul, R&B with
>Detroit's rockin' little brother's "pop" and contemp jazz (which owes its
>root to Gospel from which Motown borrowed heavily - touche again Detroit)
>into the mix which blurred things to hard rock's advantage because that
>distinction remained intact while the bastions of soft rock like M. Bolton
>had to start copping the Isley Brothers (back to Detroit one more time)
to
>keep from sounding too much like the vast sea of "everything else," also
>known as "pop" (angry little brother again.) Then, simultaneously, we hit
>the doe-eyed blond bombshell era (93-ish) real hard with Carey running up
>front while Garth started giving a 2-year New Country (hereafter referred
to
>as "NC") foothold to some fine females in that genre. Reba busted some
>molds to take that and she did it *deliberately* with violins, pedal steels,
>cowboy boots and transplanted LA guitars with angry littrle brother's
>distorted guitars with big new stetsons hanging off the headstocks.
>
>Oddly now, we've got a split going in the NC genre which is, I remind you,
>of Detroit heritage in the first place since because it came from the
>marriage of grown-up angry brother to a coal miner's daughter when little
>brother's money ran out and Cali dried up and turned expensive compared
to
>Fanklin and Brentwood TN, not to mention that NC's momma grew up in church
>and owes her heritage to Gospel - touche again Detroit.
>
>Nowdays, with the likes of S. Twain getting further and further away from
>pedal steel, violins and south of the Mason0Dixon line accent and
>southern-phrased story-telling, NC is splitting just like Detroit did 50
>years ago. Some of it is moving back toward the hard rock horse it knocked
>down in 1991, except now we got a gal on the dark horse and the bat-eating
>retirees on reality TV whereas a remnant of NC will move back towards it
>roots keeping some of the recent flair brought to it through the
>aforementioned marriage to the "pop" version of the grown angry little
>brother.
>
>The likes of Tritt, Gill, Reba, Tearwood, Tellis, Jackson, Chesney, Judd's,
>etc., won't sell out. Others; Wilson, Urban (Dan Huff producing and
>teaching him guitar), Ingram, Dixie Chicks, Rimes, Twain, will take it where
>the money and the radio dials go.
>
>So here we are 50 years later, Aretha, timeless as ever cause she never
left
>us and, in reality, we never left her, musically. We just keep running
>circles around it and calling it something different.
>
>If you guys want a real eye-opener on the birth of pop of music in this
>country (and the world for that matter) I cannot recommend "Standing in
the
>Shadows of Motown" highly enough. Sad, happy, astounding, revealing,
>enriching. You'll have an appreciation for all these "genres" (and the
>people who created them) that you did not have 2 minutes before watching
it.
>It may even help you break some musical routines in which you feel stuck.
>It will also refresh your perspective of how to clinically approach your
>production. Ultimately, it all about people communicating to other in this
>wonderful medium our creator has given us - not purified sound.
>
>I'll cap this long load with a fitting portion of scripture; Ecclesiatstes
1
>: 9 - 11
>What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done;
>there is nothing new under the sun. Is there a thing of which it is said,
>"See, this is new"? It has already been, in the ages before us. The people
>of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people
>yet to come by those who come after them.
>
>Remembering Motown, Rock and it's siblings,
>W.
>
>
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69909 is a reply to message #69824] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 03:00 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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From the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Rock 'n' roll, or rock and roll:
A form of popular music arising from and incorporating a variety of musical
styles, especially rhythm and blues, country music, and gospel. Originating
in the United States in the 1950s, it is characterized by electronically
amplified instrumentation, a heavily accented beat, and relatively simple
phrase structure."
Personally, I don't think categories are all that interesting . . .
rock, R&B, hard rock, Motown, progressive rock, speed metal, death metal,
alternative, punk, post-punk, indie, psychedelic, fusion, fission, rave,
groove-core, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. YAWN! Categorization is not that
interesting because:
1. The lines blur rather arbitrarily between categories, e.g., Led
Zeppelin is "hard rock" . . . OK, is "The Battle of Evermore" hard rock? Or
"Tangerine"? "The Crunge"? Or the Beatles . . . what kind of rock are
"Eleanor Rigby," "Strawberry Fields Forever," "Honey Pie," "I've Just Seen a
Face," and so on? Eclecticity makes genre-stamping a little bit slippery.
2. The only categories that really matter to me are "I like it, " or "I
don't like it," which is purely a matter of taste. I listen to AC/DC's
"Highway To Hell," Sarah McLachlan's "Angel," EWF's "Shining Star," Tori
Amos' "God," Frank Zappa's "Little Umbrellas," Squirrel Nut Zippers, "Put a
Lid On It," They Might Be Giants "Birdhouse in Your Soul," Aretha's "Natural
Woman," Patsy Cline's "Faded Love," Radiohead's "Exit Music for a Film,"
Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun," and the list of disparate styles and
categories goes on and on and on. But I consider them all to be works of
art . . . and I don't care if one took years to write and years of practice
to play, and another was written and recorded one afternoon on an acid trip.
If I like it, it's good. :)
3. I seems to me that the best and most enduring music comes from
artists that defy categorization because they're eclectic and because they
evolve. The Beatles come first to my mind as a stellar example of this. In
fact, if a group/artist really does fit tidily into one of our predefined
genres, I think the chances are good I wouldn't find them very interesting.
I've had students who only listened to that heavy metal with the extra bass
strings and the very scary growling vocalist. I swear it was all one band
with 7 different names, but hey, the kids like it. Anyway, I think the best
artists defy genre-ization, and occupy their own special categories.
So, let's recap . . . Sarah's handy guide to music appreciation: If you
like it, it's good. If you don't like it, it's not so good. And remember,
if someone else feels differently, they're not wrong, any more than it's
wrong for them to like green if your favorite color is blue.
Sarah
PS: I think The Shaggs should've topped the list
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| Re: Another "greatest of all time" list [message #69921 is a reply to message #69909] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 11:00 |
gene Lennon[3]
Messages: 40
Registered: June 2006
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Member |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>From the American Heritage Dictionary:
>
>"Rock 'n' roll, or rock and roll:
>A form of popular music arising from and incorporating a variety of musical
>styles, especially rhythm and blues, country music, and gospel. Originating
>in the United States in the 1950s, it is characterized by electronically
>amplified instrumentation, a heavily accented beat, and relatively simple
>phrase structure."
>
> Personally, I don't think categories are all that interesting . . .
>rock, R&B, hard rock, Motown, progressive rock, speed metal, death metal,
>alternative, punk, post-punk, indie, psychedelic, fusion, fission, rave,
>groove-core, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. YAWN! Categorization is not that
>interesting because:
>
> 1. The lines blur rather arbitrarily between categories, e.g., Led
>Zeppelin is "hard rock" . . . OK, is "The Battle of Evermore" hard rock?
Or
>"Tangerine"? "The Crunge"? Or the Beatles . . . what kind of rock are
>"Eleanor Rigby," "Strawberry Fields Forever," "Honey Pie," "I've Just Seen
a
>Face," and so on? Eclecticity makes genre-stamping a little bit slippery.
>
> 2. The only categories that really matter to me are "I like it, " or
"I
>don't like it," which is purely a matter of taste. I listen to AC/DC's
>"Highway To Hell," Sarah McLachlan's "Angel," EWF's "Shining Star," Tori
>Amos' "God," Frank Zappa's "Little Umbrellas," Squirrel Nut Zippers, "Put
a
>Lid On It," They Might Be Giants "Birdhouse in Your Soul," Aretha's "Natural
>Woman," Patsy Cline's "Faded Love," Radiohead's "Exit Music for a Film,"
>Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun," and the list of disparate styles and
>categories goes on and on and on. But I consider them all to be works of
>art . . . and I don't care if one took years to write and years of practice
>to play, and another was written and recorded one afternoon on an acid trip.
>If I like it, it's good. :)
>
> 3. I seems to me that the best and most enduring music comes from
>artists that defy categorization because they're eclectic and because they
>evolve. The Beatles come first to my mind as a stellar example of this.
In
>fact, if a group/artist really does fit tidily into one of our predefined
>genres, I think the chances are good I wouldn't find them very interesting.
>I've had students who only listened to that heavy metal with the extra bass
>strings and the very scary growling vocalist. I swear it was all one band
>with 7 different names, but hey, the kids like it. Anyway, I think the
best
>artists defy genre-ization, and occupy their own special categories.
>
> So, let's recap . . . Sarah's handy guide to music appreciation: If
you
>like it, it's good. If you don't like it, it's not so good. And remember,
>if someone else feels differently, they're not wrong, any more than it's
>wrong for them to like green if your favorite color is blue.
>
>Sarah
>
>PS: I think The Shaggs should've topped the list
>
>
I agree with most of this, but anyone whose favorite color is chartreuse,
is WRONG.
Gene
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