Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » the mystery continues
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54944 is a reply to message #54943] |
Sun, 26 June 2005 17:59   |
![Deej [3] is currently offline](/theme/PARIS_Forum_Template/images/offline.png "Deej [3] is currently offline")
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
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Senior Member |
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t to open before the bios grabs hold of it.
>
Good idea! I shall try that.
>Try putting a spare drive in the G3, booting from the 9.1 cd, and
>doing a fresh install of 9.1.
>
>If you can get that to boot, you're good. It may be that the previous
>installation ain't happy in the new digs -- I tried pulling the hard
>drive out of my beige G3 that I use for Paris tracking up in the
>treehouse at the theatre and transplanting it into a B&W G3/400 that I
>inherited. No go. Did a fresh install, and life was golden.
>
yeah, I tried that with the G4. Put in a scad of memory from the G3, and,
while I was inside the beast, installed my Monster 120 gig drive from the
9600. The G4 would only flash it's "folder with a ?" which I'd never seen
before yesterday (it's all the G3 would show when I tried booting from anything
but the CD.)
Pulled the drive out and it works fine.
>BTW -- if you want to try that, and need the 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 updates,
>and don't want to F**k with downloading 'em, I can mail you a cd.
>
>pab
Thanks, Paul -- but I'm sure I have them around somewhere. I must. I used
them to upgrade the 9600 to 9.2.2, sometime in the past. I just have to remember
where I stuck them...
-steve
.... unless the space aliens have flown off with them, or something, in which
case I may take you up on your offer...!Gantt Kushner <gizmo@his.com> wrote:
>You can also try holding the mouse button down on power-up.
>I think that'll eject the CD before it boots...
>
Hmmm... either that or the mouse button, says Paul. Thanks. I'll try 'em
both!
>By t
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54945 is a reply to message #54944] |
Sun, 26 June 2005 18:25 |
Jeremy Luzier
Messages: 102
Registered: November 2005
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Senior Member |
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he way - I had a problem w/ my new machine because the
>previous owner didn't format the main drive to work w/ OS 9.
>So when I tried to boot in OS 9 the computer couldn't "see" the
>disk and it freaked out.
>
>Good luck!
>
>Gantt
>
thanks, Gantt!
I guess we're lucky we have the option of booting into other OSes at all...
-stevejust in case anyone was interested...That's actually what I would expect to see.
I think the reason for this is that the submixes have more headroom than
the master bus, if that makes sense. Basically, before the final Paris output
hits the master bus, it actually has headroom beyond the master bus, so when
you turn down the submix faders, this extra headroom (previously hidden by
the master bus clipping) becomes audiable, hence, in effect, raising the
output level.
It's kind of like if you have a limiter, and you lower the input to the limiter
by 5db, the max output level doesn't lower by 5db, because the output level
is set by the limiter. What you get is an increase in dynamic range, but
the max level stays the same regardless so long as you have the occassional
signal maxing out the limiter, or in this case clipping the master bus.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Jeremy Luzier" <j.luzier@comcast.net> wrote:
>ok so common sense and normal signal flow is as follows....
>
>you have a bunch of guitars from individual channels going through a group
>channel.
>
>the group channel feeds the master bus.
>
>the group channel is peaking at say -5 db.
>
>so..... the master bus is peaking at -5 db.
>
>you turn the group channel down to -10 db.
>
>so... the master bus now shows peaking at -10 db.
>
>in PARIS.... ;-)
>
>you have a bunch of stuff running in on submix 1 and submix 2.
>
>you think you a peak at 0 db because the little red light are going on and
>the meters are bouncing continuously at the tip top.
>
>printing the mix confirms that you were totally slamming paris and peaking
>at 0 db... with an average RMS of -11.01 db.
>
>you dont hear any distortion or clipping.... listening at various different
>levels including very soft when its most audible.... at least to me.
>
>so just for curiousity you decide to lower the submix faders 5 db each.
now
>the little read lights don't come on at all.
>
>printing the mix completely mystifies me because it still shows peaks of
>0db.... and instead of RMS being -16 db (5 l
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54951 is a reply to message #54943] |
Sun, 26 June 2005 20:55 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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n't come on at all.
> > > >
> > > > printing the mix completely mystifies me because it still shows
peaks
> of
> > > > 0db.... and instead of RMS being -16 db (5 less due to the amount i
> > turned
> > > > the submix faders down)... RMS is now -14.67.
> > > >
> > > > does anyone find this to be mysterious?
> > > >
> > > > jeremy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>why would they design the global master with less headroom than the submix
faders?
after all the global master is supposed to be able to handle 8 submix's....
that's alot of volume.
i am not saying you are wrong.... cuz who really knows.
i do agree that there has got to be some limiting going on somewhere.... it
seems to be at the submix master.
Kim.... do you know this stuff as a fact... or are you just guessing like
the rest of us?
if you read it some where i would like to know cuz i would be interested in
reading it too.
:-)
Jeremy
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:42bf78b3$1@linux...
>
>
> That's actually what I would expect to see.
>
> I think the reason for this is that the submixes have more headroom than
> the master bus, if that makes sense. Basically, before the final Paris
output
> hits the master bus, it actually has headroom beyond the master bus, so
when
> you turn down the submix faders, this extra headroom (previously hidden by
> the master bus clipping) becomes audiable, hence, in effect, raising the
> output level.
>
> It's kind of like if you have a limiter, and you lower the input to the
limiter
> by 5db, the max output level doesn't lower by 5db, because the output
level
> is set by the limiter. What you get is an increase in dynamic range, but
> the max level stays the same regardless so long as you have the
occassional
> signal maxing out the limiter, or in this case clipping the master bus.
>
> Cheers,
>
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54958 is a reply to message #54946] |
Mon, 27 June 2005 01:23 |
Jeremy Luzier
Messages: 102
Registered: November 2005
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Senior Member |
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/>
>though, so I select it. Reboot. No good.
>
>Defaults to the CD. I can't get it to boot from anything but the CD now.
>And of course, it won't allow me to eject the CD that it's booted from, since
>it's running from the disk.
>
>So her I have a nice G3 doorstop, apparently. Is there anyway to manually
>eject the CD so I can start over?
>
>In the interim (like this morning) I got a G4 with almost no memory. Yes,
>I've gone hog wild. The G3 memory is happy inside the G4. But I still wish
>to remove the os 9 disk from the G3. I can't find a hole for a paper clip
>in this thing. Is there another way to do it?
>
>thanks, oh knowlegdeable ones.
>
>-steve the hog wild artguyI think Matthew Craig once went through the bit resolution of each stage
of Paris here on the group. I'm not sure how long ago that was though and
whether we'd still have any of the posts. Newsgroup history only goes back
to about September 2003 and it may be before that. Perhaps somebody has it
on their webpage.
>why would they design the global master with less headroom than the submix
>faders?
A couple of reasons as I see it. Firstly, the output of the system is basically
preset. You only have 24 bits to output. Before that stage you can have more,
because it's within Paris, but once you get to the output you're stuck with
just a 24 bit wav, so if you go louder than that, you're stuffed.
So why make it go louder than 24 bits when you're going to clip anyhow?
Well, let's say, for simplicity, we have a decimal digital audio system,
and the submix bus headroom goes from -20 to +20, whereas the master output
only goes from -10 to +10. Obviously if you have just one submix playing,
that submix will clip at -10 and +10. If two submixes are both playing +6
you get 6+6=10 and clip again. BUT, if submix one has a level of +13, and
submix two has a level of -8, voila, you get 13-8=5, and suddenly the master
bus can represent the signal properly. Hence it is possible for the master
bus to, on occassion, when multiple submixes are playing, to properly represent
the output of signals which normally wouldn't fit into it's bandwidth, because
loud positive signals can cancel with loud negative signals. Obviously you
want to minimise clipping as much as you can, well that's how you do it.
Also, point two, the submixes only have more headroom from a certain perspective.
From one perspective you could say that, for example, -10db is the "zero"
point of the submixes (if that is how much extra headroom they have). Hence
they don't so much have extra headroom, but moreso have the flexability of
adding gain to the signal, and we all know Paris is all about gain. So depending
how you think about it, it's not so much that the subs have extra headroom,
but kinda like they're labelled wrong, and 0db on the subs should actually
read "+10db".
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
Kim.
"Jeremy Luzier" <j.luzier@comcast.net> wrote:
>why would they design the global master with less headroom than the submix
>faders?
>
>after all the global master is supposed to be able to handle 8 submix's....
>that's alot of volume.
>
>i am not saying you are wrong.... cuz who really knows.
>
>i do agree that there has got to be some limiting going on somewhere....
it
>seems to be at the submix master.
>
>Kim.... do you know this stuff as a fact... or are you just guessing like
>the rest of us?
>
>if you read it some where i would like to know cuz i would be interested
in
>reading it too.
>
>:-)
>
>Jeremy
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:42bf78b3$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> That's actually what I would expect to see.
>>
>> I think the reason for this is that the submixes have more headroom than
>> the master bus, if that makes sense. Basically, before the final Paris
>output
>> hits the master bus, it actually has headroom beyond the master bus, so
>when
>> you turn down the submix faders, this extra headroom (previously hidden
by
>> the master bus clipping) becomes audiable, hence, in effect, raising the
>> output level.
>>
>> It's kind of like if you have a limiter, and you lower the input to the
>limiter
>> by 5db, the max output level doesn't lower by 5db, because the output
>level
>> is set by the limiter. What you get is an increase in dynamic range, but
>> the max level stays the same regardless so long as you have the
>occassional
>> signal maxing out the limiter, or in this case clipping the ma
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54961 is a reply to message #54959] |
Mon, 27 June 2005 04:04 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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gt;> Kim.
>>
>> "steve the artguy" <artguy@svnartichokespittle.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>just so you know.
>>>
>>>here's the link. Kim, why not put it on your page? I used to have to get
>>>it from Doug's...
>>>
>>>http://www.centralchat.net/chatrooms/channel.php?c=Paris
>>>
>>>-steve
>>
>
>OK then. I don't know all of the 1's and 0's thing, but isn't it possible
that we're increasing the RMS levels on a channel-by-channel basis in Nuendo
when compressing them, then additionally increasing RMS levels by virtue of
Paris' gain structure? This might explain some of the *out of the box'ness*
we're seeing.
Also, I have found that when truncating audio to 20 bit through the
Nuendo-to-Paris lightpipe transfer, I was hearing a tiny bit of Quantization
noise which was basically manifesting assort of a harsh/crunchyness. It
wasn't really noticableuntil I did some A/B comparisons (now ren't you glad
I toldyou about this? ;o) I have found a cool VST triangular dithering algo
which is adjustable and basically uncolored and I have this installed in the
last post fader insert for each channel I'm using. It is adding a bit of
smoothness and dimensionality to the cumulative mix that is noticable. Waves
IDR and/or Apogee UV22 can be used here too, but both of these add a *color*
and when using 20 or more tracks, this can sort of create a smeared image.
When used on just a couple of channels, it can work nicely though and adds
smoothness if you have a channel that is harsh and EQ just ain't cuttin' it.
Even when individually dithering lots of tracks in the transfer process from
Cubase to Paris, I'm still OK with one more dither on the stereo bus in
Wavelab when mastering, if necessary.........or if you're confident that
you've got amaster qulity mix, just set Paris to 16 bit during the mix and
you're dithered.
;o)
"Jeremy Luzier" <j.luzier@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42bfb43f@linux...
> actually that's basically what i am doing.
>
> i mix in Nuendo or Sx with UAD-1's and other VST's i like...
>
> and then send up to 26 channels of lightpipe and spdif to paris.
>
> :-)
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> news:42bf56c5$1@linux...
> > You should see what happens when you add Cubase SX to this equation
> > processing individual tracks at 32 bit with UAD-1 plugins. You can get
> the
> > signal reallty hot at 32 bit and it won't clip. Then when you lightpipe
> them
> > into Paris, you've still got the Paris gain structure and mix bus
working
> > for you.. It's like having a RMS turbocharger Real easy to over do it,
> but
> > Paris still holds together at insanely hot levels. It really reminds me
of
> > the old days when I'd get the *warm fuzzies* sitting in the control room
> of
> > one of the big studios in Austin and watching the engineer start
bringing
> up
> > the faders on a big analog console being fed by 2" tape tracked hot at
> 30IPS
> > to keep the noise floor down in the days before Dolby SR. Sort of like
> > cranking up a Shelby Cobra.
> >
> > ;oP
> >
> > "Jeremy Luzier" <j.luzier@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:42bf525a$1@linux...
> > > secret something.... that's for sure.
> > >
> > > i also noticed that when i turned down the submix faders.... the mix
> > changes
> > > slighty.... drums pop out more.... vocals are more out front.
> > >
> > > sometimes thats a good.... but in my case it was a bad thing cuz i
liked
> > the
> > > balance before.... just wanted to see what turning down the submix
> faders
> > > would do.
> > >
> > > maybe i am totally crazy!
> > >
> > > jeremy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote in message
> > > news:42bf4e4e$1@linux...
> > > > Secret sauce?
> > > >
> > > > "Jeremy Luzier" <j.luzier@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:42bf452c$1@linux...
> > > > > ok so common sense and normal signal flow is as follows....
> > > > >
> > > > > you have a bunch of guitars from individual channels going through
a
> > > group
> > > > > channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > the group channel feeds the master bus.
> > > > >
> > > > > the group channel is peaking at say -5 db.
> > > > >
> > > > > so..... the master bus is peaking at -5 db.
> > > > >
> > > > > you turn the group channel down to -10 db.
> > > > >
> > > > > so... the master bus now shows peaking at -10 db.
> > > > >
> > > > > in PARIS.... ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > you have a bunch of stuff running in on submix 1 and submix 2.
> > > > >
> > > > > you think you a peak at 0 db because the little red light are
going
> on
> > > and
> > > > > the meters are bouncing continuously at the tip top.
> > > &
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| Re: the mystery continues [message #54966 is a reply to message #54958] |
Mon, 27 June 2005 07:46 |
Deej [3]
Messages: 181
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
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now.
>>>
>>>here's the link. Kim, why not put it on your page? I used to have to get
>>>it from Doug's...
>>>
>>>http://www.centralchat.net/chatrooms/channel.php?c=Paris
>>>
>>>-steve
>>
>
>I couldn't log on. Every time I tried, it promptedme for a Java
install......... I installed Java, and Java told me that there was no Java
installed. I could access the window for the chat room, but couldn't see the
link to the Paris section.
Java has been Jivin' me.
;o)
"steve the artguy" <artguy@svnartichokespittle.net> wrote in message
news:42bfa898$1@linux...
>
> just so you know.
>
> here's the link. Kim, why not put it on your page? I used to have to get
> it from Doug's...
>
> http://www.centralchat.net/chatrooms/channel.php?c=Paris
>
> -steve"Mr Simplicity" <animix_spamless_@animas.net> wrote:
>I couldn't log on. Every time I tried, it promptedme for a Java
>install......... I installed Java, and Java told me that there was no Java
>installed. I could access the window for the chat room, but couldn't see
the
>link to the Paris section.
>
>Java has been Jivin' me.
>
>;o)
doug-
hmmmm. I always use one of those mac things for the internet - and they don't
ask me nuthin' except if I want to connect, which just involved clicking
on a "connect" icon. The java applet loads automatically, but does take quite
a few minutes. Or a few minutes. It seems like quite a few, but maybe that's
because I'm watching it.
Perhaps it's more mac-friendly.
The only thing I don't like about this Chat Central thing is that I can no
longer keep a copy of the chats... :(
Also, I had another window open last night at the same time as the chat window,
and the applet kept writing parts of the chat window right over my other
window. Very odd.
FP said he couldn't even open another window while chatting, which he used
to do all the time. I think that's what he said. I have no copy of it to
refer to ....!
oh well...
-steve
>
>"steve the artguy" <artguy@svnartichokespittle.net> wrote in message
>news:42bfa898$1@linux...
>>
>> just so you know.
>>
>> here's the link. Kim, why not put it on your page? I used to have to get
>> it from Doug's...
>>
>> http://www.centralchat.net/chatrooms/channel.php?c=Paris
>>
>> -steve
>
>"Nappy" <mgrant01@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks Mike,
>Yes,I'm back! I just started Dialysis May 03 and I'm
>pretty much back to feeling normal!!
>I've got a Bundle-3 and OPcode Studio Vision Pro for MIDI.
>DJ was kind enough to give me his old Opcode 64 XTC
>MIDI interface(THanks again Doug). That and my old Kurzwiel PC88 All running
>on a old B&W G3 400,
>and now I've got my own Studio of the living dead.
>The G3 is kind of finicky(spelling?)so I'm looking for
>something cheap to replace it.
>
>respect
>Nappy
>
>
hey, Nappy -
good to hear you are doing well!
I'll have to talk to you about this mac/XTC/midi stuff. I have all the parts
(I think) but haven't ever figured out how to get them to work together.
I have the midi thing kinda happening with my XP machine, but I still find
myself going back and using the Atari...!
-steve
oh, and yes, dj is the bomb...Hi Gantt. THanks for the info. Reamp will definitely do the job. I guess I
was wondering whether it's strictly necessary or if there's an alternative
/ cheaper way (my studio's already broken the bank!).
Suggestions welcome!
Cheers,
Dan
Gantt Kushner <gizmo@his.com> wrote:
>I bought a Reamp box. Transformer islolated out and a level control. Works
great!
>
>Gantt
>
>"\"Dan B\" daniel_burneatyahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I want to use my J-Station or Focusrite Platinum Tonefactory as a DI box
>> straight into a recorder, and then later “re-amp” via the J-Station (using
>> an insert on the recorder) and rerecord the J output. My only worry is
that
>> there will be an impedance mismatch and level mismatch which will adversely
>> affect sound quality: see http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/articles/qa0604-3.htm
>> Presumably the J input is configured as a hi-zi instrument level input
only
>> (unless anyone knows any different… !).
>> Alternatively, as the J has I presume a buffered bypass (and I have two
of
>> them), I could run the signal into one J bypassed and then into the other
>> J non-bypassed (though this seems a bit silly, but checkout the above
article).
>>
>> Just to clarify, from the SOS article I understand that there may be level
>> and impedance issues with amp, but does this also apply to fx units (e.g.
>> J-Station, normal Pod, any guitar effects), or are such units equally
happy
>> with line and guitar level inputs?
>>
>> Many thanks
>>
>> Daniel
>Steve,
You can download Studio Vision Pro here: http://www.fm-music.com/v/
Be sure to download OMS 2.3.8. You should be
able to run both PARIS and SVP on the same mac
and sync them via the IAC bus. You'll need the OMS
and MIDI manuals and you can get them all on this site.
You can use the XP box for Gigasampler. I may add a Giga
rig in the future. Let me know if you need more info.
respect
Nappy
PS Maria is now Dr Grant! and she has excepted a position at Cal St. Fullerton
"steve the artguy" <artguy@gelatinousmasssvn.net> wrote:
>
>"Nappy" <mgrant01@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks Mike,
>>Yes,I'm back! I just started Dialysis May 03 and I'm
>>pretty much back to feeling normal!!
>>I've got a Bundle-3 and OPcode Studio Vision Pro for MIDI.
>>DJ was kind enough to give me his old Opcode 64 XTC
>>MIDI interface(THanks again Doug). That and my old Kurzwiel PC88 All running
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