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Any of you guys see this? [message #93319] Tue, 04 December 2007 22:02 Go to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/

(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93322 is a reply to message #93319] Wed, 05 December 2007 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rick is currently offline  rick   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
Senior Member
now that's funny!



On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 23:02:55 -0700, "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _
net> wrote:

> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>
>(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93323 is a reply to message #93319] Wed, 05 December 2007 02:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sarah is currently offline  Sarah   UNITED STATES
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
Senior Member
I'm just shocked. Not! The only thing surprising about this is that
anyone would be surprised by it. Come on, they didn't just "forget" to have
an exit strategy . . . it's always been about getting a foothold over there
in Petroleum Heaven, especially with the looming threat of changing the oil
standard from the dollar to the euro. That's a whole lot of human sacrifice
for the primary benefit of a bunch of greedy liars.

OK, I'm not sayin' anymore about this. Trying to swear off political
posts.

S


"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
news:47564021@linux...
> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>
> (sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93332 is a reply to message #93323] Wed, 05 December 2007 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:47567bca$1@linux...
> I'm just shocked. Not! The only thing surprising about this is that
> anyone would be surprised by it. Come on, they didn't just "forget" to
> have an exit strategy . . . it's always been about getting a foothold over
> there in Petroleum Heaven, especially with the looming threat of changing
> the oil standard from the dollar to the euro. That's a whole lot of human
> sacrifice for the primary benefit of a bunch of greedy liars.
>
> OK, I'm not sayin' anymore about this. Trying to swear off political
> posts.
>
> S
>

I'm not really too concerned about the base there. This piece of paper is
only as valid as the administration(s) that signed it. Iraq or the US could
unilaterally cancel it at any time. I don't see either party raising holy
hell about this so the Democrats are onboard with it as well. After all,
cheap oil means that they can claim economic prosperity as well if they are
elected.

What concerns me is that we are going for a short term panacea..Maybe 20
years and we're going to be right back in the same situation if we don't
develop our resources here and seriously ramp up our technologies to deal
with the inevitable "peak oil" situation...........and we won't do that.
Once the price of oil stabilizes, we will fall back into the same old
habits......we always do once the pressure is off ......and when this
happens again, it will be exponentially worse.

OK, I'm done.

Deej
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93334 is a reply to message #93332] Wed, 05 December 2007 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dedric Terry is currently offline  Dedric Terry   UNITED STATES
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
Senior Member
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
news:4756d0de@linux...

> What concerns me is that we are going for a short term panacea..Maybe 20
> years and we're going to be right back in the same situation if we don't
> develop our resources here and seriously ramp up our technologies to deal
> with the inevitable "peak oil" situation...........and we won't do that.

So true. Our greed and complacency hold us hostage, but nothing like what
it will in coming years.
Then there's the suspsected coming water war, esp. here in the west.....

Anyone see that Ted Turner has been buying up land in Nebraska, South
Dakota, etc?
2 million acres now - most of it right over the Ogallala Aquifer, the
world's largest underground water system.
I'm sure he just wants to be a rancher and ride fences over his 2 million
acres - should only take a year or so
depending on how fast his horse is. ;-)

Back to music....

Dedric

> Once the price of oil stabilizes, we will fall back into the same old
> habits......we always do once the pressure is off ......and when this
> happens again, it will be exponentially worse.
>
> OK, I'm done.
>
> Deej
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93336 is a reply to message #93334] Wed, 05 December 2007 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message news:4756d69d$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
> news:4756d0de@linux...
>
>> What concerns me is that we are going for a short term panacea..Maybe 20
>> years and we're going to be right back in the same situation if we don't
>> develop our resources here and seriously ramp up our technologies to deal
>> with the inevitable "peak oil" situation...........and we won't do that.
>
> So true. Our greed and complacency hold us hostage, but nothing like what
> it will in coming years.
> Then there's the suspsected coming water war, esp. here in the west.....
>
> Anyone see that Ted Turner has been buying up land in Nebraska, South
> Dakota, etc?
> 2 million acres now - most of it right over the Ogallala Aquifer, the
> world's largest underground water system.
> I'm sure he just wants to be a rancher and ride fences over his 2 million
> acres - should only take a year or so
> depending on how fast his horse is. ;-)
>
> Back to music....
>
> Dedric

Boone Pickens has been doing this for years. Ted's a humanitarian. He's just
buying up all those water rights so the evil Pickens won't be able to get
them and he can, in turn, keep the price of water below $100.00 per barrel
for the good of humanity.
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93337 is a reply to message #93336] Wed, 05 December 2007 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dedric Terry is currently offline  Dedric Terry   UNITED STATES
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
Senior Member
So do you think this is a jousting match between Turner and Pickens to see
who controls the AL
for western and Texas water useage? ...and longterm, a power play for
control over water
for the west so we serfs can be dehydrated of our bank accounts?

"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
news:4756dade$1@linux...
>
> Boone Pickens has been doing this for years. Ted's a humanitarian. He's
> just buying up all those water rights so the evil Pickens won't be able to
> get them and he can, in turn, keep the price of water below $100.00 per
> barrel for the good of humanity.
>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93338 is a reply to message #93336] Wed, 05 December 2007 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dedric Terry is currently offline  Dedric Terry   UNITED STATES
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
Senior Member
Sorry DJ - AL should have been OA, or rather Ogallala Aquifier, or rather I
should just give
up on acronyms and stick to more descriptive phrases like "the thing with
all the water underground".

Dedric
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93339 is a reply to message #93338] Wed, 05 December 2007 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message news:4756e20d@linux...
> Sorry DJ - AL should have been OA, or rather Ogallala Aquifier, or rather
> I should just give
> up on acronyms and stick to more descriptive phrases like "the thing with
> all the water underground".
>
> Dedric

I think Turner saw an opportunity to make money and he is taking advantage
of his great wealth to make more money. Plain and simple. I also think that
if they start trying to control downstream access to water, their lives will
be shortened by a few years. There are a few good ol' boys around here who
will pick them off at 2 miles with .50 cal rifles if they can get in range.
People kill each other over water rights in Colorado. It's a tradition.

;o)
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93340 is a reply to message #93339] Wed, 05 December 2007 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dedric Terry is currently offline  Dedric Terry   UNITED STATES
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
Senior Member
Since my family and I are basically transplants and not fully familiar with
most Colorado traditions (other
than skiing :-) are the less violent ones we can participate in? ;-))

Dedric

"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
news:4756ec3c@linux...
> People kill each other over water rights in Colorado. It's a tradition.
>
> ;o)
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93341 is a reply to message #93340] Wed, 05 December 2007 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message news:4756f7f0@linux...
> Since my family and I are basically transplants and not fully familiar
> with most Colorado traditions (other
> than skiing :-) are the less violent ones we can participate in? ;-))
>
> Dedric
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
> news:4756ec3c@linux...
>> People kill each other over water rights in Colorado. It's a tradition.
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>

Well......skiing is good here. Dec 1 was opening day at Silverton Mountain,
Purgatory and Telluride. They actually had to close the lifts at silverton
because they couldn't dig them out of the snow fast enough. They had to
refer everyone down to Telluride or Purgatory. wolf Creek got 28" in 24
hours last weekend. Of course when all that snow starts melting, it turns to
water..........and people die.......
;o)
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93342 is a reply to message #93323] Wed, 05 December 2007 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
Well, I dunno, Sarah. I don't buy the 'cheap oil' argument all that much.
It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper to just drop sanctions on Iran
and Iraq and buy oil from them, they were more than willing to sell. Additionally,
oil is not cheap, in fact, it's almost as expensive as it's ever been (inflation
adjusted oil was north of 100 of todays dollars back in the late 70's). Also,
expensive oil doesn't really benefit oil companies all that much. The price
of the commodity has skyrocketed while the price of the retail products it
is used to create has not gone up at nearly the same rate. What this means,
of course, is that we were getting seriously gouged back in the early 90's
when oil was $8/bbl and gas cost $1.89/gal. The expensive oil really benefits
whoever happens to have the stuff in the ground, as the cost of extraction
is a (relative) constant. So, in addition to greatly helping 'allies' like
Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, high oil prices are the lifeblood of all kinds of
supposed 'enemies,' Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, Iran, Libya, etc. In fact,
any believing Christian must think it a real godly thigh slapper that he
decided to stick so much of the really good natural resources under the pitter
patter feet of so many non-believers of various stripes. From Mohamedans
to animists, to the distant descendents of Zoroaster.

Anyway, why invade Iraq? At this point I'm leaning toward what this article
rather floridly describes--permanent US bases in the region. The Saudis impolitely
asked us to leave some years back and Kuwait and Qatar aren't really enough.
Look at the map, I don't suspect Yemen or Iran would be champing at the bit
to invite us in. The US has traditionally wanted large military bases near
maritime choke points and the strait of Hormuz is right up there with the
Strait of Malacca, and the Suez/Panama canals in the choke point department.


Either that or the Iranians pulled off the greatest intelligence coup in
the history of mankind. Or I'm missing something really obvious.

TCB

"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> I'm just shocked. Not! The only thing surprising about this is that

>anyone would be surprised by it. Come on, they didn't just "forget" to
have
>an exit strategy . . . it's always been about getting a foothold over there

>in Petroleum Heaven, especially with the looming threat of changing the
oil
>standard from the dollar to the euro. That's a whole lot of human sacrifice

>for the primary benefit of a bunch of greedy liars.
>
> OK, I'm not sayin' anymore about this. Trying to swear off political

>posts.
>
>S
>
>
>"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
>news:47564021@linux...
>> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>>
>> (sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93343 is a reply to message #93342] Wed, 05 December 2007 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>In fact,
>any believing Christian must think it a real godly thigh slapper that he
>decided to stick so much of the really good natural resources under the
pitter
>patter feet of so many non-believers of various stripes. From Mohamedans
>to animists, to the distant descendents of Zoroaster.


Actually it was a test. A test to see if we were wise enough to
understand the dangers involved in becoming symbiotic with
the middle east. A test to see if we were smart enough to
find our own resources and stay independent and free.

We flunked...

DC
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93345 is a reply to message #93319] Wed, 05 December 2007 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LaMontt  is currently offline  LaMontt   
Messages: 424
Registered: January 2007
Senior Member

Old, but new news.. This has been the plan al along.. Pitiful.

"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>
>(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93347 is a reply to message #93319] Wed, 05 December 2007 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim is currently offline  Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
Senior Member
>(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)

You're right. One offs don't bother me. :o) It's when we start getting 3
new political threads a day for 3 weeks and the politics to music ratio is
still on the slide that I start going "OY!". ;o)

I actually think people should talk more about politics in society, but there
comes a point where this is a music forum and posts have to stay mostly in
that direction.

Anyhow, as you were. ;o)

Cheers,
Kim.
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93365 is a reply to message #93319] Thu, 06 December 2007 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emarenot is currently offline  emarenot
Messages: 345
Registered: June 2005
Senior Member
Yeah DJ, troubled is right. This whole damn thing just rips me up, thinking
about it, trying to understand my feelings about the "war." I've got no
good answers, but here are some of the questions that vex me:
-Doesn't the world really run on oil? It ain't just our cars, its that trucking
industry, the shipping industry, the industry that makes all the parts for
all the other industry, its in the damn keyboard I'm typing on now. So,
is switching, within our lifetimes, over to an alternative fuel source really
possible such that we have no dependence on OPO (other people's oil)?
-In the world of geopolitics, our relationships with Russia and China matter
(to them and to us) -but how much, and for how long?
-Is some quantity of oil or economic "stability," or "dominance," worth even
one life?
Funny creatures we are.
MR


"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>
>(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93367 is a reply to message #93343] Thu, 06 December 2007 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
It made a lot of people a lot of money for 80 years. And don't forget the
helpful role played by our US spooks in 'radicalizing' those wacky middle
easterners.

TCB

"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>In fact,
>>any believing Christian must think it a real godly thigh slapper that he
>>decided to stick so much of the really good natural resources under the
>pitter
>>patter feet of so many non-believers of various stripes. From Mohamedans
>>to animists, to the distant descendents of Zoroaster.
>
>
>Actually it was a test. A test to see if we were wise enough to
>understand the dangers involved in becoming symbiotic with
>the middle east. A test to see if we were smart enough to
>find our own resources and stay independent and free.
>
>We flunked...
>
>DC
>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93369 is a reply to message #93367] Thu, 06 December 2007 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>It made a lot of people a lot of money for 80 years. And don't forget the
>helpful role played by our US spooks in 'radicalizing' those wacky middle
>easterners.
>
>TCB

Like they need much help...

I think we can all agree that our dependence on that region
for energy sources has given rise to much foolishness and
danger to all of us.

DC
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93372 is a reply to message #93365] Thu, 06 December 2007 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Good points.

One thing I would add is that there is plenty of oil out there, and
we need to get that oil so we can move away from OPO ASAP.

Alternatives should be developed as well, but the emphasis
must be on our own oil supplies in the short term. The issues at
hand are too large and too important to not act now.

Every SINGLE adminstration the OPEC oil embargo has utterly
failed at this vital task and now we are paying for it...

DC

"Mike R" <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Yeah DJ, troubled is right. This whole damn thing just rips me up, thinking
>about it, trying to understand my feelings about the "war." I've got no
>good answers, but here are some of the questions that vex me:
>-Doesn't the world really run on oil? It ain't just our cars, its that
trucking
>industry, the shipping industry, the industry that makes all the parts for
>all the other industry, its in the damn keyboard I'm typing on now. So,
>is switching, within our lifetimes, over to an alternative fuel source really
>possible such that we have no dependence on OPO (other people's oil)?
>-In the world of geopolitics, our relationships with Russia and China matter
>(to them and to us) -but how much, and for how long?
>-Is some quantity of oil or economic "stability," or "dominance," worth
even
>one life?
>Funny creatures we are.
>MR
>
>
>"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>>
>>(sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>>
>>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93374 is a reply to message #93372] Thu, 06 December 2007 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jamie K is currently offline  Jamie K   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
Senior Member
"Plenty of oil" is relative to demand, difficulty of extraction, and
ramifications of atmospheric effects.

"Plenty of oil" is also relative to the price we are willing to pay in
terms of dollars, armed conflict and political intervention.

All of that taken into account, betting the farm on oil is a short term
gamble at best.

For longer term viability we need to invest heavily in developing other
sources of energy, using energy more efficiently, and developing
strategies for polluting less in the process.

Oil is not sustainable in the long run, nor will it last forever. But we
have the opportunity to use it to help transition to a sustainable
future now, if we're smart. Or squander it and wonder what happened
later, if we're not.

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com


DC wrote:
> Good points.
>
> One thing I would add is that there is plenty of oil out there, and
> we need to get that oil so we can move away from OPO ASAP.
>
> Alternatives should be developed as well, but the emphasis
> must be on our own oil supplies in the short term. The issues at
> hand are too large and too important to not act now.
>
> Every SINGLE adminstration the OPEC oil embargo has utterly
> failed at this vital task and now we are paying for it...
>
> DC
>
> "Mike R" <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Yeah DJ, troubled is right. This whole damn thing just rips me up, thinking
>> about it, trying to understand my feelings about the "war." I've got no
>> good answers, but here are some of the questions that vex me:
>> -Doesn't the world really run on oil? It ain't just our cars, its that
> trucking
>> industry, the shipping industry, the industry that makes all the parts for
>> all the other industry, its in the damn keyboard I'm typing on now. So,
>> is switching, within our lifetimes, over to an alternative fuel source really
>> possible such that we have no dependence on OPO (other people's oil)?
>> -In the world of geopolitics, our relationships with Russia and China matter
>> (to them and to us) -but how much, and for how long?
>> -Is some quantity of oil or economic "stability," or "dominance," worth
> even
>> one life?
>> Funny creatures we are.
>> MR
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>>>
>>> (sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>>>
>>>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93376 is a reply to message #93374] Thu, 06 December 2007 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
I think methane is the answer. It's always been here and it's always gonna
be here as long as we are all full of shit, and since that will be the case
as long as we eat and breathe, don't you think it's time to get our shit
together?

;o)


"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:47586ebf@linux...
>
> "Plenty of oil" is relative to demand, difficulty of extraction, and
> ramifications of atmospheric effects.
>
> "Plenty of oil" is also relative to the price we are willing to pay in
> terms of dollars, armed conflict and political intervention.
>
> All of that taken into account, betting the farm on oil is a short term
> gamble at best.
>
> For longer term viability we need to invest heavily in developing other
> sources of energy, using energy more efficiently, and developing
> strategies for polluting less in the process.
>
> Oil is not sustainable in the long run, nor will it last forever. But we
> have the opportunity to use it to help transition to a sustainable future
> now, if we're smart. Or squander it and wonder what happened later, if
> we're not.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DC wrote:
>> Good points. One thing I would add is that there is plenty of oil out
>> there, and
>> we need to get that oil so we can move away from OPO ASAP.
>>
>> Alternatives should be developed as well, but the emphasis
>> must be on our own oil supplies in the short term. The issues at
>> hand are too large and too important to not act now.
>>
>> Every SINGLE adminstration the OPEC oil embargo has utterly
>> failed at this vital task and now we are paying for it...
>>
>> DC
>>
>> "Mike R" <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah DJ, troubled is right. This whole damn thing just rips me up,
>>> thinking
>>> about it, trying to understand my feelings about the "war." I've got no
>>> good answers, but here are some of the questions that vex me:
>>> -Doesn't the world really run on oil? It ain't just our cars, its that
>> trucking
>>> industry, the shipping industry, the industry that makes all the parts
>>> for
>>> all the other industry, its in the damn keyboard I'm typing on now. So,
>>> is switching, within our lifetimes, over to an alternative fuel source
>>> really
>>> possible such that we have no dependence on OPO (other people's
>>> il)? -In the world of geopolitics, our relationships with Russia and
>>> China matter
>>> (to them and to us) -but how much, and for how long? -Is some quantity
>>> of oil or economic "stability," or "dominance," worth
>> even
>>> one life? Funny creatures we are.
>>> MR
>>>
>>>
>>> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>>> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>>>>
>>>> (sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>>>>
>>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93377 is a reply to message #93376] Thu, 06 December 2007 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Hey Deej,

My wife and I have this discussion regularly. You should know the
answer to this, but it seems to me that between the new
discoveries in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale, and other
opportunites, we should be able to put enough pressure on
the oil producers to remove the political blackmail from oil use.

Now, I realize that the greens will want to use any chance
they can, but really, as important as alternatives are, they cannot
do a thing for us in the short term.

Why don't we do this:

Get enough of our own oil to take the power away from oil
as a weapon, and develop alternatives at the same time.

Seems reasonable to me, but every time we talk about it,
someone starts saying geothermal, hydrogen, solar, wind,
etcetc like those things mean a damn in the near future, when
everyone knows they don't. So develop them, yes, but first,
oil independence. Seems to me that anything else is foolish
and dangerous.

What do you think?

DC
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93379 is a reply to message #93377] Thu, 06 December 2007 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
The Barnett shale formation is being expolored in a very serious way in
Texas. there are huge deposits of shale in western Colorado. they will be
developed, but not before the price of developing it gets so ridiculous due
to bureaucratic red tape that only the majors will have th4e money to play
the game and then the prices will be fixed by them. No way around it. the
nvironmental lobby in western Colorado is going to add 20% to the production
costs of f recovery and that will be passed along. Good or bad??? Doesn't
matter. It will happen. there are 128,000 gas wells oprojected to be drilled
along the western slope of the rocky mountains in the next 10 years. I'm so
usy here I can hardly find time to get in the studio these days. 16 hour
days are getting old.........16 hour per day billing averaging 6.5 days a
week is not. My studio could never bring in that kind of revenue. There
aren't that many people these days that know how to do what I do. The young
people who were getting into this field in the late 70's bailed out when it
went belly up in '82 and then everyone went into the computer field. I'm
among the last of a dying breed.




"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:47588f84$1@linux...
>
> Hey Deej,
>
> My wife and I have this discussion regularly. You should know the
> answer to this, but it seems to me that between the new
> discoveries in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale, and other
> opportunites, we should be able to put enough pressure on
> the oil producers to remove the political blackmail from oil use.
>
> Now, I realize that the greens will want to use any chance
> they can, but really, as important as alternatives are, they cannot
> do a thing for us in the short term.
>
> Why don't we do this:
>
> Get enough of our own oil to take the power away from oil
> as a weapon, and develop alternatives at the same time.
>
> Seems reasonable to me, but every time we talk about it,
> someone starts saying geothermal, hydrogen, solar, wind,
> etcetc like those things mean a damn in the near future, when
> everyone knows they don't. So develop them, yes, but first,
> oil independence. Seems to me that anything else is foolish
> and dangerous.
>
> What do you think?
>
> DC
>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93381 is a reply to message #93376] Thu, 06 December 2007 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jamie K is currently offline  Jamie K   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
Senior Member
Heh. We need to get our shit together, that's for sure.

Not news to you, but here's another look at peak oil:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=10 3243&d=6&m=11&y=2007

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com


DJ wrote:
> I think methane is the answer. It's always been here and it's always gonna
> be here as long as we are all full of shit, and since that will be the case
> as long as we eat and breathe, don't you think it's time to get our shit
> together?
>
> ;o)
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:47586ebf@linux...
>> "Plenty of oil" is relative to demand, difficulty of extraction, and
>> ramifications of atmospheric effects.
>>
>> "Plenty of oil" is also relative to the price we are willing to pay in
>> terms of dollars, armed conflict and political intervention.
>>
>> All of that taken into account, betting the farm on oil is a short term
>> gamble at best.
>>
>> For longer term viability we need to invest heavily in developing other
>> sources of energy, using energy more efficiently, and developing
>> strategies for polluting less in the process.
>>
>> Oil is not sustainable in the long run, nor will it last forever. But we
>> have the opportunity to use it to help transition to a sustainable future
>> now, if we're smart. Or squander it and wonder what happened later, if
>> we're not.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> Good points. One thing I would add is that there is plenty of oil out
>>> there, and
>>> we need to get that oil so we can move away from OPO ASAP.
>>>
>>> Alternatives should be developed as well, but the emphasis
>>> must be on our own oil supplies in the short term. The issues at
>>> hand are too large and too important to not act now.
>>>
>>> Every SINGLE adminstration the OPEC oil embargo has utterly
>>> failed at this vital task and now we are paying for it...
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>> "Mike R" <emarenot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Yeah DJ, troubled is right. This whole damn thing just rips me up,
>>>> thinking
>>>> about it, trying to understand my feelings about the "war." I've got no
>>>> good answers, but here are some of the questions that vex me:
>>>> -Doesn't the world really run on oil? It ain't just our cars, its that
>>> trucking
>>>> industry, the shipping industry, the industry that makes all the parts
>>>> for
>>>> all the other industry, its in the damn keyboard I'm typing on now. So,
>>>> is switching, within our lifetimes, over to an alternative fuel source
>>>> really
>>>> possible such that we have no dependence on OPO (other people's
>>>> il)? -In the world of geopolitics, our relationships with Russia and
>>>> China matter
>>>> (to them and to us) -but how much, and for how long? -Is some quantity
>>>> of oil or economic "stability," or "dominance," worth
>>> even
>>>> one life? Funny creatures we are.
>>>> MR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>>>> http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/us-signs-deal-for-lon g-term-occupation-of-iraq/1850/
>>>>>
>>>>> (sorry Kim....it's OT, but troubling)
>>>>>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93390 is a reply to message #93379] Thu, 06 December 2007 22:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Thanks

You know, I believe that we need alternatives, and that a lot should
be spent finding them, but we are in a real fix because it is so hard
to find and refine our own oil. Our own oil IS the geopolitical issue
of our age. Now show me a candidate who gets it...



DC


"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>The Barnett shale formation is being expolored in a very serious way in

>Texas. there are huge deposits of shale in western Colorado. they will be

>developed, but not before the price of developing it gets so ridiculous
due
>to bureaucratic red tape that only the majors will have th4e money to play

>the game and then the prices will be fixed by them. No way around it. the

>nvironmental lobby in western Colorado is going to add 20% to the production

>costs of f recovery and that will be passed along. Good or bad??? Doesn't

>matter. It will happen. there are 128,000 gas wells oprojected to be drilled

>along the western slope of the rocky mountains in the next 10 years. I'm
so
>usy here I can hardly find time to get in the studio these days. 16 hour

>days are getting old.........16 hour per day billing averaging 6.5 days
a
>week is not. My studio could never bring in that kind of revenue. There

>aren't that many people these days that know how to do what I do. The young

>people who were getting into this field in the late 70's bailed out when
it
>went belly up in '82 and then everyone went into the computer field. I'm

>among the last of a dying breed.
>
>
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:47588f84$1@linux...
>>
>> Hey Deej,
>>
>> My wife and I have this discussion regularly. You should know the
>> answer to this, but it seems to me that between the new
>> discoveries in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale, and other
>> opportunites, we should be able to put enough pressure on
>> the oil producers to remove the political blackmail from oil use.
>>
>> Now, I realize that the greens will want to use any chance
>> they can, but really, as important as alternatives are, they cannot
>> do a thing for us in the short term.
>>
>> Why don't we do this:
>>
>> Get enough of our own oil to take the power away from oil
>> as a weapon, and develop alternatives at the same time.
>>
>> Seems reasonable to me, but every time we talk about it,
>> someone starts saying geothermal, hydrogen, solar, wind,
>> etcetc like those things mean a damn in the near future, when
>> everyone knows they don't. So develop them, yes, but first,
>> oil independence. Seems to me that anything else is foolish
>> and dangerous.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93402 is a reply to message #93379] Fri, 07 December 2007 02:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rick is currently offline  rick   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
Senior Member
need anyone to carry your briefcase...or water in the summer?



On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:32:26 -0700, "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _
net> wrote:

>The Barnett shale formation is being expolored in a very serious way in
>Texas. there are huge deposits of shale in western Colorado. they will be
>developed, but not before the price of developing it gets so ridiculous due
>to bureaucratic red tape that only the majors will have th4e money to play
>the game and then the prices will be fixed by them. No way around it. the
>nvironmental lobby in western Colorado is going to add 20% to the production
>costs of f recovery and that will be passed along. Good or bad??? Doesn't
>matter. It will happen. there are 128,000 gas wells oprojected to be drilled
>along the western slope of the rocky mountains in the next 10 years. I'm so
>usy here I can hardly find time to get in the studio these days. 16 hour
>days are getting old.........16 hour per day billing averaging 6.5 days a
>week is not. My studio could never bring in that kind of revenue. There
>aren't that many people these days that know how to do what I do. The young
>people who were getting into this field in the late 70's bailed out when it
>went belly up in '82 and then everyone went into the computer field. I'm
>among the last of a dying breed.
>
>
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:47588f84$1@linux...
>>
>> Hey Deej,
>>
>> My wife and I have this discussion regularly. You should know the
>> answer to this, but it seems to me that between the new
>> discoveries in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale, and other
>> opportunites, we should be able to put enough pressure on
>> the oil producers to remove the political blackmail from oil use.
>>
>> Now, I realize that the greens will want to use any chance
>> they can, but really, as important as alternatives are, they cannot
>> do a thing for us in the short term.
>>
>> Why don't we do this:
>>
>> Get enough of our own oil to take the power away from oil
>> as a weapon, and develop alternatives at the same time.
>>
>> Seems reasonable to me, but every time we talk about it,
>> someone starts saying geothermal, hydrogen, solar, wind,
>> etcetc like those things mean a damn in the near future, when
>> everyone knows they don't. So develop them, yes, but first,
>> oil independence. Seems to me that anything else is foolish
>> and dangerous.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93404 is a reply to message #93369] Fri, 07 December 2007 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
Some did, some didn't, but it was the CIA who taught them first the fundamentals
and then the advanced tactics of insurgency, secure communication, and so
on. This was to give Russia 'it's Vietnam.'

Relying on any other country for anything important is, to some extent, a
danger. The US is blessed with staggering resources of our own that we use
a good deal of. Some of the stuff is cheaper to get from somewhere else.
However, as dangerous as relying on Saudi Arabia to keep gas in the tank
might be, relying on Japan and China to keep our credit markets liquid is
probably just as bad an idea. But it's pretty hard to demonize the people
who build most of the stuff we buy so they're getting a free pass in the
gloom and doom department.

TCB

"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>It made a lot of people a lot of money for 80 years. And don't forget the
>>helpful role played by our US spooks in 'radicalizing' those wacky middle
>>easterners.
>>
>>TCB
>
>Like they need much help...
>
>I think we can all agree that our dependence on that region
>for energy sources has given rise to much foolishness and
>danger to all of us.
>
>DC
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93407 is a reply to message #93402] Fri, 07 December 2007 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DJ is currently offline  DJ   FRANCE
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
Senior Member
"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ht6il3ddmo55pukivr0hgl3libav028oc8@4ax.com...
> need anyone to carry your briefcase...or water in the summer?
>
>

It's nice being able to pay off some major bills but it won't last forever.
You make hay while the sun shines in this business. It (literally) could
change tomorrow. I remember times when they would pull the plug on funding
projects in November and there would be no work again until late February.
Nothing is taken for granted around here.
;o)
Re: Any of you guys see this? [message #93410 is a reply to message #93407] Fri, 07 December 2007 13:18 Go to previous message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
Commodities are called volatile for a reason. Good you're getting lots of
work, Deej. I wish there were a way I could get into the $/BTU spread of
oil v. NG getting back in line. Retail investors like us can't though.

TCB

"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>
>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ht6il3ddmo55pukivr0hgl3libav028oc8@4ax.com...
>> need anyone to carry your briefcase...or water in the summer?
>>
>>
>
>It's nice being able to pay off some major bills but it won't last forever.

>You make hay while the sun shines in this business. It (literally) could

>change tomorrow. I remember times when they would pull the plug on funding

>projects in November and there would be no work again until late February.

>Nothing is taken for granted around here.
>;o)
>
>
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