Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » More MacDonalds
| More MacDonalds [message #89999] |
Wed, 19 September 2007 14:21  |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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In response to this article:
http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think Armani
is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale price.
"I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between the
titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill) never
will.
Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share at
2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
Chuck
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90023 is a reply to message #90015] |
Wed, 19 September 2007 23:41  |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>
>"Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:46f192df$1@linux...
>>
>> In response to this article:
>>
>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>
>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>
>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>> Armani
>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>
>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>> price.
>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
the
>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>> never
>> will.
>>
>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
at
>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>
>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>
>This is the reason I dont' like Macs. I never thought Steve Jobs was cool
at
>all, and I'm not buyin' his fruit.
>
>;o)
>
>
>
That is probably a good thing, I don't think you'd be able to figure it out.
You'd be asking where the hell the directory is, and how to set the IRQs.
Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry in
his bed room; )
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90028 is a reply to message #90023] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 04:51 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46f21601$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>
>>"Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:46f192df$1@linux...
>>>
>>> In response to this article:
>>>
>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>
>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>
>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>
>>> Armani
>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>
>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>
>>> price.
>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>> Apple
>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>> christ
>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
> the
>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>
>>> never
>>> will.
>>>
>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
> at
>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>
>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>
>>This is the reason I dont' like Macs. I never thought Steve Jobs was cool
> at
>>all, and I'm not buyin' his fruit.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>
>>
> That is probably a good thing, I don't think you'd be able to figure it
> out.
> You'd be asking where the hell the directory is, and how to set the IRQs.
>
>
First of all, I've owned Macs since 1994. I know a little it about them
already. I choose to use PC's.....why???........because I already know
something about Macs. The Mac store here is two doors down from my downtown
office. I drop by there on a regular basis and have become friends with the
owner of the store who is such a Machead that he makes you look lukewarm
about the system. He give me the "tour du jour" every time I go in there.
Funny how there's always one on the display table having a problem of some
sort. Given their price, I'd think that they should be standing up on their
hind legs and barking like the line of PC's down the road at Office Depot.
Unfortunately, with the advent of Vista, windows appears to have taken the
worst aspects of Mac OS, and copied it.............again.
> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry in
> his bed room; )
Spoken like a true brainbwashee. Carry on.
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90035 is a reply to message #90028] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 08:16 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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DJ wrote:
> Unfortunately, with the advent of Vista, windows appears to have
taken the
> worst aspects of Mac OS, and copied it.............again.
Microsoft isn't just copying, they are busy INNOVATING.
For example, this new patent:
"On Tuesday, the USPTO granted Microsoft a patent for privacy policy
change notification, which describes how to threaten users with the loss
of their accounts and access to web sites and services should they
refuse to consent to changes in a privacy policy. This includes the case
where a user might object to allowing personal information, collected
earlier with a promise of confidentiality, to be shared in the future
with third parties. Also described is a 'Never Notify Me' option so you
won't have to 'worry' over privacy policy changes."
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/09/11/1228241.shtml
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90037 is a reply to message #89999] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 08:44 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree with
you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real way
to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But for
the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb their
noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any serious
traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's not
like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to protect
their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the plebes
won't enhance that and might detract from it.
Think Debian,
TCB
"Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>In response to this article:
>
>http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>
>Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>
>What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think Armani
>is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>
>As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
price.
> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between the
>titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
never
>will.
>
>Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share at
>2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>
>1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>
>
>
>Chuck
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90038 is a reply to message #90037] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 09:05 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
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Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
how many stores are involved at this point
( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
and MicroCenter stores.
iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
and trying their own stores, sort of:
http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
TCB wrote:
> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree with
> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real way
> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But for
> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb their
> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any serious
> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's not
> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to protect
> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the plebes
> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>
> Think Debian,
>
> TCB
>
> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>> In response to this article:
>>
>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>
>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>
>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think Armani
>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>
>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
> price.
>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between the
>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
> never
>> will.
>>
>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share at
>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>
>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90040 is a reply to message #90038] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 09:36 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
iPods are available at Wal-Mart, I would have thought the great almighty all
knowing Thad would have known this! Maybe there just available at the Wal-Mart
by LaMont and I.
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>how many stores are involved at this point
>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>
>Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>and MicroCenter stores.
>
>iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>
>On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>and trying their own stores, sort of:
>
> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
with
>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
way
>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
for
>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb their
>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
serious
>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
not
>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to
protect
>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
plebes
>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>
>> Think Debian,
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>> In response to this article:
>>>
>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>
>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>
>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
Armani
>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>
>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>> price.
>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
the
>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>> never
>>> will.
>>>
>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
at
>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>
>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90041 is a reply to message #90038] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 09:40 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
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Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently? Every one I've
seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible for
it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and Apple
indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
TCB
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>how many stores are involved at this point
>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>
>Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>and MicroCenter stores.
>
>iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>
>On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>and trying their own stores, sort of:
>
> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>TCB wrote:
>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
with
>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
way
>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
for
>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb their
>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
serious
>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
not
>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to
protect
>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
plebes
>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>
>> Think Debian,
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>> In response to this article:
>>>
>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>
>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>
>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
Armani
>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>
>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>> price.
>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
the
>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>> never
>>> will.
>>>
>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
at
>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>
>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90042 is a reply to message #90040] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 09:43 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
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I'll let the sarcasm go this time, James, but I'm in the middle of three hellish
weeks of work so don't push it, I'm cranky.
We were talking about computers not music players. Read Chuck's initial post
with the Armani argument and the Wall St. analysts.
TCB
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>iPods are available at Wal-Mart, I would have thought the great almighty
all
>knowing Thad would have known this! Maybe there just available at the Wal-Mart
>by LaMont and I.
>
>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>
>>Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>how many stores are involved at this point
>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>
>>Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>and MicroCenter stores.
>>
>>iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>
>>On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>
>>and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>
>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>
>>Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>TCB wrote:
>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>with
>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>way
>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
will
>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
>for
>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
their
>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
>serious
>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>not
>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
to
>protect
>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>plebes
>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>
>>> Think Debian,
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>
>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>
>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>Armani
>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>
>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>> price.
>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
Apple
>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
christ
>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>the
>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>> never
>>>> will.
>>>>
>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>at
>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>
>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90044 is a reply to message #90038] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 09:55 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple backdrop
dwarfing a rather spartan table
of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
seem to be generating any interest the
several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for my
wife (24" preferrably).
Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>
> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know how
> many stores are involved at this point
> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>
> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA and
> MicroCenter stores.
>
> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>
> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>
> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> TCB wrote:
>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>> with
>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>> way
>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
>> for
>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>> their
>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
>> serious
>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>> whatever
>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's not
>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to
>> protect
>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>> plebes
>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>> In response to this article:
>>>
>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>
>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>> Armani
>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>> price.
>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>> Apple
>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>> christ
>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>> the
>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>> never
>>> will.
>>>
>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>> at
>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90045 is a reply to message #90028] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 10:08 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:46f21601$1@linux...
>>
>> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:46f192df$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>
>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>
>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>
>>>> Armani
>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>
>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>
>>>> price.
>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>> Apple
>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>>> christ
>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>> the
>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>
>>>> never
>>>> will.
>>>>
>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>> at
>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>
>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>This is the reason I dont' like Macs. I never thought Steve Jobs was cool
>> at
>>>all, and I'm not buyin' his fruit.
>>>
>>>;o)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That is probably a good thing, I don't think you'd be able to figure it
>> out.
>> You'd be asking where the hell the directory is, and how to set the IRQs.
>>
>>
>First of all, I've owned Macs since 1994. I know a little it about them
>already. I choose to use PC's.....why???........because I already know
>something about Macs. The Mac store here is two doors down from my downtown
>office. I drop by there on a regular basis and have become friends with
the
>owner of the store who is such a Machead that he makes you look lukewarm
>about the system. He give me the "tour du jour" every time I go in there.
>Funny how there's always one on the display table having a problem of some
>sort. Given their price, I'd think that they should be standing up on their
>hind legs and barking like the line of PC's down the road at Office Depot.
>Unfortunately, with the advent of Vista, windows appears to have taken
the
>worst aspects of Mac OS, and copied it.............again.
Why don't you admit that the 400 MHz Mac you have is a POS because it can
stand up to your 3GHz PCs. By the the way, who used the Mac in your house?
Speaking of Macs, I thought you were the guy that had to have the latest
greatest system on the planet, well right now it's a Mac. Don't worry, Microsoft
will steal more stuff from Apple and get Vista working in a year or so.
Then all you PC zealots can tell all us Mac users how great Vista is and
how Mac OS sucks.
>
>> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry
in
>> his bed room; )
>
>Spoken like a true brainbwashee. Carry on.
>
No, spoken like the truth. In 1976-1977 the only affordable personal computer
was the altair kit, which you had to build. It was not a modern personal
computer, it's interface was toggle switches and lights. Yes. Steve Jobs
and Steve Wozniak kicked off the Personal computer industry with the first
affordable modern computer. The computer was dreamed up and built in Steve
Jobs bed room when he was about 19 years old. You can thank Steve W. for
incorporating the keyboard and the cathode ray tube, not to mention many
other things. These guys innovated and pointed the whole industry in the
direction the industry has gone. There are many innovations these guys brought
to the industry, they both deserve some gratitude.
As I've said many times use what you want, just don't bash the Mac!
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90047 is a reply to message #90041] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 10:33 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
TCB wrote:
> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
> Every one I've
> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible for
> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and Apple
> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
CompUSA (or Microcenter).
They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
it's different in your hood.
Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
are blurring.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
> TCB
>
> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>> how many stores are involved at this point
>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>
>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>
>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>
>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>
>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>
>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
> with
>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
> way
>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me will
>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
> for
>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb their
>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
> serious
>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
> not
>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want to
> protect
>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
> plebes
>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>
>>> Think Debian,
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>
>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>
>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
> Armani
>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>
>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>> price.
>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000". Apple
>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for christ
>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
> the
>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>> never
>>>> will.
>>>>
>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
> at
>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>
>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90048 is a reply to message #90047] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 10:55 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I know that here in the 20010 zip code, there is a large group of community
folks actively soliciting/encouraging Apple (via an email campaign) to open
a store in the new development in Columbia Heights. You guys will think
I'm exaggerating, but in the DC metro area every second computer I see is
a Mac.
By the way, I don't use, own, or even really like macs. I've only been commenting
on the consumer phenomenon going on around apples products, especially in
urban areas, among people with lots of disposable income. I think it's astounding.
Who would ever have dreamed that computers, music players and phones would
ever be 'cool'. Go figure.
Chuck
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>TCB wrote:
>> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
>
>Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
>
>
>> Every one I've
>> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible
for
>> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and
Apple
>> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
>
>Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
>CompUSA (or Microcenter).
>
>They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
>displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
>those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
>it's different in your hood.
>
>Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
>stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
>more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
>more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
>national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
>products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
>
>They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
>and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
>
>This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
>aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
>version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
>are blurring.
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>
>> TCB
>>
>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>> how many stores are involved at this point
>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>
>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>>
>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>
>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>
>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB wrote:
>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>> with
>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>> way
>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
will
>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
But
>> for
>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
their
>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
any
>> serious
>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>> not
>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
to
>> protect
>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>> plebes
>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>>
>>>> Think Debian,
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>> Armani
>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>
>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
sale
>>>> price.
>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
Apple
>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
christ
>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>> the
>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>> never
>>>>> will.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>> at
>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90050 is a reply to message #90047] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 11:12 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Fry's also has Apple computers. The old Mac bash that you can't buy Apple
computers retail no longer has any legs. Just like the knock that Apple
only has 3% market share no longer stands either. Most of the old Mac jabs
are now obsolete. Things are changing and Apple is growing.
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>TCB wrote:
>> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
>
>Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
>
>
>> Every one I've
>> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible
for
>> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and
Apple
>> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
>
>Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
>CompUSA (or Microcenter).
>
>They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
>displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
>those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
>it's different in your hood.
>
>Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
>stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
>more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
>more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
>national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
>products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
>
>They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
>and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
>
>This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
>aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
>version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
>are blurring.
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>
>> TCB
>>
>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>> how many stores are involved at this point
>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>
>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>>
>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>
>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>
>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB wrote:
>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>> with
>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>> way
>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
will
>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
But
>> for
>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
their
>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
any
>> serious
>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whatever
>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>> not
>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
to
>> protect
>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>> plebes
>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>>
>>>> Think Debian,
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>> Armani
>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>
>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
sale
>>>> price.
>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
Apple
>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
christ
>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>> the
>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>> never
>>>>> will.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>> at
>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90053 is a reply to message #90048] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 13:02 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I think that's the iPod more than anything else. And Apple still has an outsized
presence in education when compared to its general population presence. But
I could be wrong.
TCB
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>I know that here in the 20010 zip code, there is a large group of community
>folks actively soliciting/encouraging Apple (via an email campaign) to open
>a store in the new development in Columbia Heights. You guys will think
>I'm exaggerating, but in the DC metro area every second computer I see is
>a Mac.
>
>By the way, I don't use, own, or even really like macs. I've only been
commenting
>on the consumer phenomenon going on around apples products, especially in
>urban areas, among people with lots of disposable income. I think it's astounding.
>Who would ever have dreamed that computers, music players and phones would
>ever be 'cool'. Go figure.
>
>Chuck
>
>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>TCB wrote:
>>> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
>>
>>Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
>>
>>
>>> Every one I've
>>> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible
>for
>>> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and
>Apple
>>> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
>>
>>Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
>>CompUSA (or Microcenter).
>>
>>They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
>>displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
>>those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
>>it's different in your hood.
>>
>>Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
>>stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
>>more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
>
>>more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
>>national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
>>products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
>>
>>They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
>
>>and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
>>
>>This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
>>aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
>>version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
>
>>are blurring.
>>
>>Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>
>>>> how many stores are involved at this point
>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>
>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>
>>>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>>>
>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>
>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>> with
>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>> way
>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
>will
>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>But
>>> for
>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>their
>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>any
>>> serious
>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
whatever
>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>>> not
>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>to
>>> protect
>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
the
>>> plebes
>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think Debian,
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>> Armani
>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
>sale
>>>>> price.
>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
> Apple
>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>christ
>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>> the
>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>>> never
>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>> at
>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chuck
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90061 is a reply to message #90048] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 21:15 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
That's what started this thread. I could not belive what I was seeing being
at my local Apple Store.
Chuck's right.. It's seems that apple is rolling off of more tongues than
I've sceen in a longtime.
note: I own a Creative Zen Sleek Photo. Better converters,more features than
a Ipod..
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>I know that here in the 20010 zip code, there is a large group of community
>folks actively soliciting/encouraging Apple (via an email campaign) to open
>a store in the new development in Columbia Heights. You guys will think
>I'm exaggerating, but in the DC metro area every second computer I see is
>a Mac.
>
>By the way, I don't use, own, or even really like macs. I've only been
commenting
>on the consumer phenomenon going on around apples products, especially in
>urban areas, among people with lots of disposable income. I think it's astounding.
>Who would ever have dreamed that computers, music players and phones would
>ever be 'cool'. Go figure.
>
>Chuck
>
>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>TCB wrote:
>>> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
>>
>>Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
>>
>>
>>> Every one I've
>>> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible
>for
>>> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and
>Apple
>>> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
>>
>>Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
>>CompUSA (or Microcenter).
>>
>>They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
>>displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
>>those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
>>it's different in your hood.
>>
>>Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
>>stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
>>more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
>
>>more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
>>national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
>>products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
>>
>>They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
>
>>and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
>>
>>This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
>>aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
>>version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
>
>>are blurring.
>>
>>Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>
>>>> how many stores are involved at this point
>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>
>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>
>>>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>>>
>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>
>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>> with
>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>> way
>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
>will
>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>But
>>> for
>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>their
>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>any
>>> serious
>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
whatever
>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>>> not
>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>to
>>> protect
>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
the
>>> plebes
>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think Debian,
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>> Armani
>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
>sale
>>>>> price.
>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
> Apple
>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>christ
>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>> the
>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>>> never
>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>> at
>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chuck
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90062 is a reply to message #90044] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 21:21 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks, moms
and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting their
turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so that
Win Xpusers feel right at home.
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple backdrop
>dwarfing a rather spartan table
>of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>seem to be generating any interest the
>several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>
>The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for
my
>wife (24" preferrably).
>
>Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>
>"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>
>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
how
>> many stores are involved at this point
>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>
>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
and
>> MicroCenter stores.
>>
>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>
>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>
>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>> with
>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>> way
>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
will
>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
>>> for
>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>> their
>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
>>> serious
>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>> whatever
>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
not
>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
to
>>> protect
>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>>> plebes
>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>
>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>>> Armani
>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>> price.
>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>> Apple
>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>>> christ
>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>> the
>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>> never
>>>> will.
>>>>
>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>>> at
>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90063 is a reply to message #90062] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 21:31 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so that
> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't asked
about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows running
on a more expensive box.
So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a Mac,
they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
PCs are much less expensive with more options.
Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells most
apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000 to
$500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
costly than any other.
Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
Dedric
On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
wrote:
>
> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks, moms
> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting their
> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>
> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so that
> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>
> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple backdrop
>
>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>
>> seem to be generating any interest the
>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>
>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for
> my
>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>
>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>
>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
> how
>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>
>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
> and
>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>
>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>
>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>
>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-60
>>> 75868.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB wrote:
>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>
>>>> with
>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>
>>>> way
>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
> will
>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
>
>>>> for
>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>
>>>> their
>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
>
>>>> serious
>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>> whatever
>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
> not
>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
> to
>>>> protect
>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>
>>>> plebes
>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>
>>>>> Armani
>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>>> price.
>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>> Apple
>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>
>>>>> christ
>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>
>>>>> the
>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>> never
>>>>> will.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>
>>>>> at
>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90064 is a reply to message #90063] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 21:58 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a
Mac,
>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
Hi Dedric,
It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade than
a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to keep
the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it sure
slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
use a Mac for all my other work.
Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
DC
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90066 is a reply to message #90063] |
Thu, 20 September 2007 22:56 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of blanket
statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off the
pricing is.
Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations. The only
thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out with
3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple will
be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off as
you think they are.
$2499.00 or $59.00 a month
Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
16x double-layer SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
$3,298.00
Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
16x double-layer SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
$3,997.00
Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
16x double-layer SuperDrive
Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so
that
>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>
>They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't asked
>about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows running
>on a more expensive box.
>
>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a
Mac,
>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>
>Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells most
>apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000 to
>$500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>costly than any other.
>
>Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>
>Dedric
>
>
>
>On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks, moms
>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
their
>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>
>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so
that
>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>
>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple backdrop
>>
>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>
>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>
>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for
>> my
>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>
>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>> how
>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>
>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>> and
>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>
>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>
>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-60
>>>> 75868.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>
>>>>> with
>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>
>>>>> way
>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
>> will
>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
But
>>
>>>>> for
>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>
>>>>> their
>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
any
>>
>>>>> serious
>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>> whatever
>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>> not
>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>> to
>>>>> protect
>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
the
>>
>>>>> plebes
>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>
>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
sale
>>>>> price.
>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>
>>>>>> christ
>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>>> never
>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90067 is a reply to message #90066] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 00:16 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi James,
True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet a quad
core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but when
comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing from
the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as the
dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge on buss
performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each for us
to compare.
On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of blanket
> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off the
> pricing is.
>
> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations. The only
> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out with
> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple will
> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off as
> you think they are.
>
> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
Antec 550W power supply: $100
Coolermaster case: $60
> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
$70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
Total separate parts price: $2326
I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros do,
so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card is
mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than a
Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs. 3 on
the Mac Pro.
So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in use
(the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
Regards,
Dedric
>
>
> $3,298.00
> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>
> $3,997.00
> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so
> that
>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>
>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't asked
>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows running
>> on a more expensive box.
>>
>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a
> Mac,
>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>
>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells most
>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000 to
>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>> costly than any other.
>>
>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>
>> Dedric
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks, moms
>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
> their
>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>
>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so
> that
>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>
>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>> backdrop
>>>
>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>>
>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>
>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for
>>> my
>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>
>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>
>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>> how
>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>>
>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>> and
>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>
>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-
>>>>> 60
>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>>
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
>>> will
>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
> But
>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>>
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
> any
>>>
>>>>>> serious
>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>>> not
>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>>> to
>>>>>> protect
>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
> the
>>>
>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>>
>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
> sale
>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>>
>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>>
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90068 is a reply to message #90067] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 01:35 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Since we are supposed to be high end users, lets stick to high end desk tops
for now. Comparing Off the shelve Apple computers to build it your self
component pricing is an unfair comparison. If your going to do that start
by comparing the parts prices to Dell and HP using the Apple specifications.
I think it's about as fair as comparing a cheap kit car to the price of
a new cadillac.
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Hi James,
>
>True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet a quad
>core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
>
>So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but when
>comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing from
>the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as the
>dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge on
buss
>performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
>to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>
>I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each for
us
>to compare.
>
>On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of blanket
>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
the
>> pricing is.
>>
>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations. The
only
>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
with
>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
will
>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
as
>> you think they are.
>>
>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>
>Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>
>MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>
>Antec 550W power supply: $100
>
>Coolermaster case: $60
>
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>$70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>
>WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>
>Total separate parts price: $2326
>
>I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros
do,
>so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
is
>mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than
a
>Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs. 3
on
>the Mac Pro.
>
>So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in use
>(the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>
>Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
>OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>>
>>
>> $3,298.00
>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>
>> $3,997.00
>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
so
>> that
>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>
>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't
asked
>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
running
>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>
>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
a
>> Mac,
>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>
>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells
most
>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
to
>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>>> costly than any other.
>>>
>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
moms
>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
>> their
>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
so
>> that
>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>
>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>> backdrop
>>>>
>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>>>
>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
for
>>>> my
>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>
>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>>> how
>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>>> and
>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>>
>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-
>>>>>> 60
>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I
agree
>>>>
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a
real
>>>>
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
me
>>>> will
>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>> But
>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>>>
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>> any
>>>>
>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
it's
>>>> not
>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>>>> to
>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
think
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
vs
>> sale
>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
for
>>>>
>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he
(bill)
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
share
>>>>
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90070 is a reply to message #90023] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 04:45 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"My girlfriend always laughs during sex, no matter what she's reading." -
Steve Jobs
S
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46f21601$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>
>>"Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote in message news:46f192df$1@linux...
>>>
>>> In response to this article:
>>>
>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>
>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>
>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>
>>> Armani
>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>
>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>
>>> price.
>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>> Apple
>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>> christ
>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
> the
>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>
>>> never
>>> will.
>>>
>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
> at
>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>
>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>
>>This is the reason I dont' like Macs. I never thought Steve Jobs was cool
> at
>>all, and I'm not buyin' his fruit.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>
>>
> That is probably a good thing, I don't think you'd be able to figure it
> out.
> You'd be asking where the hell the directory is, and how to set the IRQs.
>
> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry in
> his bed room; )
>
|
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90071 is a reply to message #90061] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 05:10 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeah, I was actually trying to steer the thread back to your original point.
I haven't been to an apple store, but I would have to be blind not to see
what's going on with apple in my area. If the lights went out in any starbucks
around here, the room would be lit with the blue glow of the apples on the
laptops.
Chuck
"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com> wrote:
>
>That's what started this thread. I could not belive what I was seeing being
>at my local Apple Store.
>
>Chuck's right.. It's seems that apple is rolling off of more tongues than
>I've sceen in a longtime.
>
>note: I own a Creative Zen Sleek Photo. Better converters,more features
than
>a Ipod..
>
>
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>
>>I know that here in the 20010 zip code, there is a large group of community
>>folks actively soliciting/encouraging Apple (via an email campaign) to
open
>>a store in the new development in Columbia Heights. You guys will think
>>I'm exaggerating, but in the DC metro area every second computer I see
is
>>a Mac.
>>
>>By the way, I don't use, own, or even really like macs. I've only been
>commenting
>>on the consumer phenomenon going on around apples products, especially
in
>>urban areas, among people with lots of disposable income. I think it's
astounding.
>>Who would ever have dreamed that computers, music players and phones would
>>ever be 'cool'. Go figure.
>>
>>Chuck
>>
>>Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>TCB wrote:
>>>> Have you seen the 'Apple store' section of a CompUSA recently?
>>>
>>>Yes, and Microcenter also. But I haven't been to a Best Buy in a while.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Every one I've
>>>> seen has been a flat out embarrassment. I don't know who is responsible
>>for
>>>> it being so bad (my guess is a combination of CompUSA incompetence and
>>Apple
>>>> indifference). Maybe Best Buy will be do better.
>>>
>>>Here in Denver I haven't noticed a problem with the Apple sections in
>>>CompUSA (or Microcenter).
>>>
>>>They have reasonably large areas with working demo machines, typical
>>>displays, and shelves of software and accessories. People working in
>>>those sections seem to know Macs. So I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe
>
>>>it's different in your hood.
>>>
>>>Apple is using a combination of their online store, their own physical
>
>>>stores, plus a presence in national chains. It seems they are building
>
>>>more and more of their own stores while at the same time expanding into
>>
>>>more national chain stores. They are supporting all of this with
>>>national advertising and a steady pace of new product introductions -
>>>products that are fairly elegant for the most part.
>>>
>>>They also have a growing presence with the iPod in a variety of stores,
>>
>>>and with the iPhone in AT&T stores.
>>>
>>>This seems to be spreading awareness of the Apple brand. But those
>>>aren't Macs...or are they? The new iPhones and iPod Touch models run a
>
>>>version of OSX, include the Safari browser and other apps, so the lines
>>
>>>are blurring.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>>
>>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>
>>>>> how many stores are involved at this point
>>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>>
>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>
>>>>> and MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>>
>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-6075868.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>>> with
>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a
real
>>>> way
>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
me
>>will
>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>>But
>>>> for
>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>their
>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>>any
>>>> serious
>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>whatever
>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>>>> not
>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>>to
>>>> protect
>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>the
>>>> plebes
>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think Debian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>>> Armani
>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs
>>sale
>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>> Apple
>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>christ
>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>> the
>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he
(bill)
>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
share
>>>> at
>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90072 is a reply to message #90064] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 06:31 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yup, those Dells are unreliable. That's why I just put $30k+ of new precision
workstations on our trading floor, and also why we have two racks stuffed
full of a few hundred thousand worth of them, running everything from NT
4.0 (don't knock it until you've seen one run for three years and need a
reboot when the power is cut over in the server room) to Debian Etch.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a
>Mac,
>>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>
>
>Hi Dedric,
>
>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
than
>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>
>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
keep
>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
sure
>
>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>
>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>use a Mac for all my other work.
>
>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>
>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>
>DC
>
|
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90075 is a reply to message #90045] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 07:31 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>
> Why don't you admit that the 400 MHz Mac you have is a POS because it can
> stand up to your 3GHz PCs. By the the way, who used the Mac in your
> house?
> Speaking of Macs, I thought you were the guy that had to have the latest
> greatest system on the planet, well right now it's a Mac. Don't worry,
> Microsoft
> will steal more stuff from Apple and get Vista working in a year or so.
> Then all you PC zealots can tell all us Mac users how great Vista is and
> how Mac OS sucks.
>
I used it when it was state of the art and it just sucked compared to PC's
so now I should go buy another one? Yeah.....I'm there dude!!!Like I said,
I've used Apple machines in the past and am familiar enough with the new
ones to know that they are nice, but overpiced for my needs .I don't "do
iPOD or iPhone. I'd probably get beat up by the "good ol' boys" around here
if I pulled one of those frilly little pretty things out in the presence of
a bunch of "real men". I need stuff that's chunky looking, painted flat
black and emits guttural grunts when it rings.
;O)
>>
>>> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry
> in
>>> his bed room; )
>>
>>Spoken like a true brainbwashee. Carry on.
>>
>
> No, spoken like the truth. In 1976-1977 the only affordable personal
> computer
> was the altair kit, which you had to build. It was not a modern personal
> computer, it's interface was toggle switches and lights. Yes. Steve Jobs
> and Steve Wozniak kicked off the Personal computer industry with the first
> affordable modern computer. The computer was dreamed up and built in Steve
> Jobs bed room when he was about 19 years old. You can thank Steve W. for
> incorporating the keyboard and the cathode ray tube, not to mention many
> other things. These guys innovated and pointed the whole industry in the
> direction the industry has gone. There are many innovations these guys
> brought
> to the industry, they both deserve some gratitude.
>
> As I've said many times use what you want, just don't bash the Mac!
Doesn't make Jobs cool (though I did think Wozniak was cool). If Woz was the
face of Apple these days, I'd probably have a more favorable impression. Woz
RAWX.
;o)
|
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90076 is a reply to message #90075] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 07:51 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Why don't you admit that the 400 MHz Mac you have is a POS because it
can
>> stand up to your 3GHz PCs. By the the way, who used the Mac in your
>> house?
>> Speaking of Macs, I thought you were the guy that had to have the latest
>> greatest system on the planet, well right now it's a Mac. Don't worry,
>> Microsoft
>> will steal more stuff from Apple and get Vista working in a year or so.
>> Then all you PC zealots can tell all us Mac users how great Vista is and
>> how Mac OS sucks.
>>
>I used it when it was state of the art and it just sucked compared to PC's
>so now I should go buy another one? Yeah.....I'm there dude!!!Like I said,
>I've used Apple machines in the past and am familiar enough with the new
>ones to know that they are nice, but overpiced for my needs .I don't "do
>iPOD or iPhone. I'd probably get beat up by the "good ol' boys" around here
>if I pulled one of those frilly little pretty things out in the presence
of
>a bunch of "real men". I need stuff that's chunky looking, painted flat
>black and emits guttural grunts when it rings.
>
>;O)
I have to carry a BBerry for work, that's my phone. And after all kinds of
effort I think I found a media player that will work for me.
http://en.meizu.com/
Plays .ogg and .flac files and xVid video. Perhaps most importantly no 'value
added' spyware necessary. Just plug in a USB cable, drag and drop files,
and play them. And they explicitly state they work with linux. 8GB is enough
for me to get by though if I had 32 or more I wouldn't mind. Sadly not sold
in the US, but next time one of our investments people goes to China they're
picking one up for me unless they really don't like getting their email on
time.
TCB
>>>
>>>> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry
>> in
>>>> his bed room; )
>>>
>>>Spoken like a true brainbwashee. Carry on.
>>>
>>
>> No, spoken like the truth. In 1976-1977 the only affordable personal
>> computer
>> was the altair kit, which you had to build. It was not a modern personal
>> computer, it's interface was toggle switches and lights. Yes. Steve Jobs
>> and Steve Wozniak kicked off the Personal computer industry with the first
>> affordable modern computer. The computer was dreamed up and built in Steve
>> Jobs bed room when he was about 19 years old. You can thank Steve W.
for
>> incorporating the keyboard and the cathode ray tube, not to mention many
>> other things. These guys innovated and pointed the whole industry in
the
>> direction the industry has gone. There are many innovations these guys
>> brought
>> to the industry, they both deserve some gratitude.
>>
>> As I've said many times use what you want, just don't bash the Mac!
>
>Doesn't make Jobs cool (though I did think Wozniak was cool). If Woz was
the
>face of Apple these days, I'd probably have a more favorable impression.
Woz
>RAWX.
>
>;o)
>
>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90077 is a reply to message #90067] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 07:56 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Good comparision guys.
What this tells me is:
1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
of very cool software thrown in.
2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case. We're
talking totally different leagues.
3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Hi James,
>
>True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet a quad
>core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
>
>So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but when
>comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing from
>the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as the
>dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge on
buss
>performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
>to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>
>I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each for
us
>to compare.
>
>On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of blanket
>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
the
>> pricing is.
>>
>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations. The
only
>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
with
>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
will
>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
as
>> you think they are.
>>
>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>
>Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>
>MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>
>Antec 550W power supply: $100
>
>Coolermaster case: $60
>
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>$70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>
>WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>
>Total separate parts price: $2326
>
>I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros
do,
>so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
is
>mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than
a
>Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs. 3
on
>the Mac Pro.
>
>So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in use
>(the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>
>Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
>OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>>
>>
>> $3,298.00
>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>
>> $3,997.00
>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
so
>> that
>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>
>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't
asked
>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
running
>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>
>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
a
>> Mac,
>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>
>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells
most
>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
to
>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>>> costly than any other.
>>>
>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
moms
>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
>> their
>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
so
>> that
>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>
>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>> backdrop
>>>>
>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>>>
>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
for
>>>> my
>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>
>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>>> how
>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>>> and
>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>>
>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-
>>>>>> 60
>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I
agree
>>>>
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a
real
>>>>
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
me
>>>> will
>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>> But
>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>>>
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>> any
>>>>
>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
it's
>>>> not
>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>>>> to
>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
think
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
vs
>> sale
>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
for
>>>>
>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he
(bill)
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
share
>>>>
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90078 is a reply to message #90072] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 08:22 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Funny... It's like the folks who claim Macs never break...
Here's Don's law of gear breakage:
All gear breaks, all companies make defective units. Let's call that
percentage X
Therefore, if you have enough gear in a room, the chances of failure
approach 100% X varies by company and is unknown without buying
all the gear...
or is this DJ's law?
DC
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Yup, those Dells are unreliable. That's why I just put $30k+ of new precision
>workstations on our trading floor, and also why we have two racks stuffed
>full of a few hundred thousand worth of them, running everything from NT
>4.0 (don't knock it until you've seen one run for three years and need a
>reboot when the power is cut over in the server room) to Debian Etch.
>
>TCB
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>
>>>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
a
>>Mac,
>>>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>
>>
>>Hi Dedric,
>>
>>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
>than
>>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>>
>>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
>keep
>>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
>sure
>>
>>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>>
>>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>>use a Mac for all my other work.
>>
>>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>>
>>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>>
>>DC
>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90079 is a reply to message #90077] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 08:43 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire (Tyans
didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board -
it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and lower
end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure, but
the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not ones
I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand of
Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a Tyan
if building a dual xeon though.
However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just a
general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to buy a
Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about 5%
better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
doesn't mind).
The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected half
the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but when
you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes, but
when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until you
get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
Mac or PC).
The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and the
case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than a
Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
using a $100 550W, but it could be.
MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design around
a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around one
motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife at
work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's nice
for home users, and to have in general.
Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a $500
app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before Apple)
to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a future
- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and development
focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a good
deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
associate quality with price.
Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses - I
just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an informed
decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the average
user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
actual technical design and capabilities.
Regards,
Dedric
On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
wrote:
>
> Good comparision guys.
>
> What this tells me is:
>
> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
> of very cool software thrown in.
>
> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case. We're
> talking totally different leagues.
>
> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Hi James,
>>
>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet a quad
>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
>>
>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but when
>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing from
>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as the
>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge on
> buss
>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>
>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each for
> us
>> to compare.
>>
>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of blanket
>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
> the
>>> pricing is.
>>>
>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations. The
> only
>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
> with
>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
> will
>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
> as
>>> you think they are.
>>>
>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>
>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>
>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>
>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>
>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>
>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>
>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>
>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>
>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>
>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>
>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>
>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>
>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>
>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros
> do,
>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
> is
>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than
> a
>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs. 3
> on
>> the Mac Pro.
>>
>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in use
>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>
>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> $3,298.00
>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>
>>> $3,997.00
>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>
>>>
>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
> so
>>> that
>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>
>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't
> asked
>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
> running
>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>
>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
> a
>>> Mac,
>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>> Windows,
>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>
>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells
> most
>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
> to
>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>
>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
> moms
>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
>>> their
>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded ,
> so
>>> that
>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>
>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
> for
>>>>> my
>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>
( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I
> agree
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a
> real
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
> me
>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on.
>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>>> any
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
> it's
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
> think
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
> vs
>>> sale
>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
> for
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he
> (bill)
>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
> share
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90081 is a reply to message #90079] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 09:19 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Last I heard, Apple was having the MOBOs made by Intel, that may not be every
model. There's no way in hell a cheap PC case can even compare to a Mac
Pro case, don't even try to compare them. LaMont is right, the MacPro case
is in a totally different league! Typical Mac basher, now your going to
twist Apple dropping prices and say it's a bad thing, that it's some kind
of rip off of the people. That's bullshit!
Why don't you do a fair comparison like Apple to Dell or HP? You can't,
because you know that the difference is not 40%- 50%!
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire (Tyans
>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
-
>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and lower
>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
but
>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>
>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
ones
>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
of
>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a Tyan
>if building a dual xeon though.
>
>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
a
>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to buy
a
>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
5%
>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>
>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>doesn't mind).
>
>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected half
>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
when
>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes, but
>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until you
>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>Mac or PC).
>
>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and the
>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
a
>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>
>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design around
>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
one
>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>
>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
at
>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
nice
>for home users, and to have in general.
>
>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>
>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a $500
>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before Apple)
>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a future
>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and development
>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a
good
>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>associate quality with price.
>
>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses - I
>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an informed
>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the average
>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>actual technical design and capabilities.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Good comparision guys.
>>
>> What this tells me is:
>>
>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>
>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
We're
>> talking totally different leagues.
>>
>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
a quad
>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
>>>
>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
when
>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
from
>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as
the
>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
on
>> buss
>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>
>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
for
>> us
>>> to compare.
>>>
>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
blanket
>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
>> the
>>>> pricing is.
>>>>
>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
The
>> only
>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
>> with
>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>> will
>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
>> as
>>>> you think they are.
>>>>
>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>>
>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>
>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>
>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>
>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>
>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>
>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>
>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros
>> do,
>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
>> is
>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than
>> a
>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
3
>> on
>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>
>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in
use
>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>
>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> $3,298.00
>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>> $3,997.00
>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
,
>> so
>>>> that
>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>
>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't
>> asked
>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>> running
>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>
>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
home
>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>> a
>>>> Mac,
>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>> Windows,
>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>
>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells
>> most
>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>> to
>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>> moms
>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
>>>> their
>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
,
>> so
>>>> that
>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it
doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
>> for
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
know
>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>
>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
strategy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
I
>> agree
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
a
>> real
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
>> me
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so
on.
>>>> But
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
thumb
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>>>> any
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
or
>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
>> it's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
>> think
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>> vs
>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>> for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
between
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
he
>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>> share
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90082 is a reply to message #90078] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 09:20 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Of course they break, Don. You're the one who said Dells are 50% as reliable
as Macs. That's nonsense, and I have the server logs and uptime to prove
it. On the workstation side we have occasional drive failures, 1-3 per year
out of 50+ workstations.
Sorry, ain't buying it. If ANYTHING was twice as reliable as the stuff we
use here (and we test extensively) we'd buy it instead. The only thing we've
found to outperform Dell on the reliability front is the really heavy iron
Sun and IBM stuff. We can't justify the additional cost, and we don't think
the AMD/Intel Sun stuff is likely to be much better than Dell gear, but if
Joe's Computers could show us 50% increase in reliability we'd move to his
stuff in a second.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Funny... It's like the folks who claim Macs never break...
>
>Here's Don's law of gear breakage:
>
>All gear breaks, all companies make defective units. Let's call that
>percentage X
>
>Therefore, if you have enough gear in a room, the chances of failure
>approach 100% X varies by company and is unknown without buying
>all the gear...
>
>or is this DJ's law?
>
>DC
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Yup, those Dells are unreliable. That's why I just put $30k+ of new precision
>>workstations on our trading floor, and also why we have two racks stuffed
>>full of a few hundred thousand worth of them, running everything from NT
>>4.0 (don't knock it until you've seen one run for three years and need
a
>>reboot when the power is cut over in the server room) to Debian Etch.
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>>>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>a
>>>Mac,
>>>>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>>>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Dedric,
>>>
>>>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
>>than
>>>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>>>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>>>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>>>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>>>
>>>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
>>keep
>>>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>>>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
>>sure
>>>
>>>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>>>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>
>>>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>
>>>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>>>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>>>
>>>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>>>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>>>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>>>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>>>use a Mac for all my other work.
>>>
>>>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>>>
>>>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>>>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>>>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90086 is a reply to message #90078] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 09:54 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Funny... It's like the folks who claim Macs never break...
>
>Here's Don's law of gear breakage:
>
>All gear breaks, all companies make defective units. Let's call that
>percentage X
>
>Therefore, if you have enough gear in a room, the chances of failure
>approach 100% X varies by company and is unknown without buying
>all the gear...
>
>or is this DJ's law?
>
>DC
I must be damned lucky, in the last 13 years I haven't had any of my Macs
fry. They all still work. I had a iBook hard drive damaged after it was
dropped, that's it. How many MOBOs, power supplies, and memory have gone
bad for Deej? What's that all cost in time and money? I'm not saying that
Mac don't have problems. I'm not saying Macs are perfect, they just look
that way sitting next to a windows box; )
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Yup, those Dells are unreliable. That's why I just put $30k+ of new precision
>>workstations on our trading floor, and also why we have two racks stuffed
>>full of a few hundred thousand worth of them, running everything from NT
>>4.0 (don't knock it until you've seen one run for three years and need
a
>>reboot when the power is cut over in the server room) to Debian Etch.
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>>>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>a
>>>Mac,
>>>>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>>>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Dedric,
>>>
>>>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
>>than
>>>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>>>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>>>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>>>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>>>
>>>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
>>keep
>>>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>>>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
>>sure
>>>
>>>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>>>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>
>>>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>
>>>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>>>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>>>
>>>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>>>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>>>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>>>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>>>use a Mac for all my other work.
>>>
>>>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>>>
>>>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>>>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>>>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90087 is a reply to message #90081] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 09:55 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> Last I heard, Apple was having the MOBOs made by Intel, that may not be
> every
That was my guess.
> model. There's no way in hell a cheap PC case can even compare to a Mac
> Pro case, don't even try to compare them. LaMont is right, the MacPro
> case
> is in a totally different league! Typical Mac basher, now your going to
> twist Apple dropping prices and say it's a bad thing, that it's some kind
> of rip off of the people. That's bullshit!
I said Mac cases were nice - there isn't an off the shelf PC case that is
the same design, but that doesn't
make other cases crap and Mac cases someone God's gift to the computer
world. It's a friggin aluminum
case. My discussion was about the hardware inside, and you and Lamont turn
it into a "but look at the case!!" comparison. What are you guys buying
your Macs for - furniture? It sits in a machine room (here at least, and in
all production houses I know of), so who cares what it looks like, other
than home users?? But, we were talking about higher end machines, right?
Or are we talking
about machines for home users?
Maybe if you were a little less enamoured with the world of the great Apple
and a little more in touch
with the fact that it's a business to make a profit off of people buying it
hook line and sinker just like you, then you would see it for what it is -
hardware and software. That's it. Not the world's greatest discovery since
fire and bread. Just a product sold to make money.
Why is it so many Mac users can't seem to have an objective discussion?
Answer that honestly before
you go calling anyone else a Mac basher. Mac users here aren't the only
ones I deal with - seems to be a disease of
defensiveness you get when you buy one, but it's uncanny, seriously uncanny
and sad. That's how monopolies and bully
companies are built - blindly loyal customers. Be careful, you may get what
you never wished for.
Yet again, for the 11234098340th time you didn't read what I (or anyone
else) writes and you assume we are bashing. We try to have logical
discussions here, but you take everything as a slight on your beloved Apple.
This alone makes me want to avoid Apple products like the plague. You've
pretty much dominated the computer discussions here that used to be useful,
but not so much anymore. Every computer discussion gets turned into an
Apple advertisement, so yes, we will defend our points of view, but only
because we get inundated by your Apple mantra every time the words PC, Mac,
Apple, microsoft or computer come up in a thread.
Why don't you go to Apples' forum and share your enthusiasm there? I think
you'll have a lot more fun hearing people agree with you all of the time.
Sorry I responded to you in the first place. My mistake. Won't happen
again.
Dedric
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46f3ef26$1@linux...
>
> Last I heard, Apple was having the MOBOs made by Intel, that may not be
> every
> model. There's no way in hell a cheap PC case can even compare to a Mac
> Pro case, don't even try to compare them. LaMont is right, the MacPro
> case
> is in a totally different league! Typical Mac basher, now your going to
> twist Apple dropping prices and say it's a bad thing, that it's some kind
> of rip off of the people. That's bullshit!
>
> Why don't you do a fair comparison like Apple to Dell or HP? You can't,
> because you know that the difference is not 40%- 50%!
>
> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire
>>(Tyans
>>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
> -
>>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and
>>lower
>>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
> but
>>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>>
>>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
> ones
>>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
> of
>>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a Tyan
>>if building a dual xeon though.
>>
>>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
> a
>>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to buy
> a
>>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
> 5%
>>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>>
>>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>>doesn't mind).
>>
>>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected half
>>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
> when
>>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes, but
>>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until you
>>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>>Mac or PC).
>>
>>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and the
>>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
> a
>>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>>
>>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design
>>around
>>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
> one
>>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>>
>>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
> at
>>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
> nice
>>for home users, and to have in general.
>>
>>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>>
>>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a $500
>>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before
>>Apple)
>>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a
>>future
>>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and
>>development
>>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
>>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a
> good
>>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>>associate quality with price.
>>
>>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses - I
>>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an
>>informed
>>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the
>>average
>>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>>actual technical design and capabilities.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dedric
>>
>>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont"
>><jjdpro@funk.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Good comparision guys.
>>>
>>> What this tells me is:
>>>
>>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
>>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>>
>>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
> We're
>>> talking totally different leagues.
>>>
>>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>>
>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
> a quad
>>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two
>>>> Xeons).
>>>>
>>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
> when
>>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
> from
>>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as
> the
>>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
> on
>>> buss
>>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be
>>>> negated
>>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>>
>>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
> for
>>> us
>>>> to compare.
>>>>
>>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is
>>>>> accurate
>>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
> blanket
>>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the
>>>>> challenge,
>>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
>>> the
>>>>> pricing is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
> The
>>> only
>>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
>>> with
>>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>>> will
>>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
>>> as
>>>>> you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>
>>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>>
>>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>>
>>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>>
>>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>>
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>>
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>>
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>>
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>>
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>>
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>>
>>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>>
>>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe
>>>> MacPros
>>> do,
>>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
>>> is
>>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher
>>>> than
>>> a
>>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
> 3
>>> on
>>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>>
>>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in
> use
>>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>>
>>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same
>>>> hardware,
>>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> $3,298.00
>>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>> $3,997.00
>>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
> ,
>>> so
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I
>>>>>> haven't
>>> asked
>>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>>> running
>>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
> home
>>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>>> a
>>>>> Mac,
>>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple
>>>>>> sells
>>> most
>>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>>> to
>>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>>> moms
>>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display
>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>> their
>>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
> ,
>>> so
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it
> doesn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
>>> for
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
> know
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>>
>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>>.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside
>>>>>>>>> CompUSA
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
> strategy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
> I
>>> agree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
> a
>>> real
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
>>> me
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so
> on.
>>>>> But
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
> thumb
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be
>>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>> any
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
> or
>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
>>> it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
> want
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
>>> think
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>>> vs
>>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000".
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>>> for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
> between
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
> he
>>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>>> share
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90088 is a reply to message #90064] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 10:08 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>>So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
>>users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a
>Mac,
>>they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
>>PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>
>
>Hi Dedric,
>
>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
than
>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>
>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
keep
>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
sure
>
>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>
>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>use a Mac for all my other work.
>
>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>
>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>
>DC
>
Hey, I'm a Windows XP user also. I own multiple PCs. I've been a system
administrator in the past and all the machines were Windows and UNIX machines.
I also was a computer dealer for years, I sold and supported PCs. I've
used DOS and Windows machines longer than I have used Macs. There are a
few things I like about a windows machine over a Mac, but I can only think
of one of them right now; ) Personally, I think I'm a Windows neophyte
not an expert. I think I'm an intermediate Mac user, not an expert, and
I don't claim to be one like some people do. I like Mac better for all the
reasons DC stated and more. That's no secret! I think people should use
what they want to.
My problem is when somebody bashes the Mac or Mac users with some ignorant
bullshit. When somebody repeats a Mac bashing lie like Apples market share
is only 3%, that there is no retail for Apple computers, or when someone
insinuates that Macs are toys, not real computers. It's like a few years
ago when somebody posted that Apple was doomed because the Mac bashing PC
zealots at motley Fools said so. This gets old. Apples stock was around
$32.00 a share, it's been hovering around $140.00 a share. I think it reached
$148.00 a few weeks ago. As someone once told me, I don't listen to fools.
I'm trying to correct what I see as misinformation about Apple and Apple
products. The FUD about Apple has been going on for years and not just on
this NG. EVERY TIME Apple or anything Mac is mentioned here somebody will
make a negative comment, smart-ass crack, insult, or bash. When I try to
correct or challenge some ignorant comment, then I'm told to chill out or
I'm personally insulted. I stand up when someone spews misinformation, or
gets insulting.
I'm not trying to sell anybody a Mac here, but I am an advocate. Remember
I use both. It's funny that the people that constantly bash Macs don't use
Macs and often have had very little experience with Macs. Sorry guys, your
wives using Macs in your house hold doesn't count, or cut it. It reminds
me of a guy that takes a Ferrari around the track a couple of times and thinks
they know every thing about a Ferrari. They have no idea of what it's capable
of. It's the same with a Mac, you have to use one day in and day out for
a year or so to know what it is capable of. Many here, have experience with
7-8 year old Macs, and that's what they base every thing on. You can't compare
experience with an old Mac to a current PC. To be fair, it's not all the
initial cost of a Mac that you should be looking at either, there is a lot
more to it. You guys need to ask yourselves why the great majority of Mac
owners are vary happy customers. (Bashers, this is the point where you insert
some article about unhappy mac owners.)
Some people think they know everything about Macs because they can press
a button to load software or check the right check boxes in the network settings.
Or they read on some web site that Apple chose the wrong Kernel, so that
makes them an expert know it all. You don't know shit until you use a newer
Mac exclusively for a year or so. As I've said before, if you really want
to become educated, turn off the PC and use a newer Mac for a year, then
come back and tell me how bad it sucks. If you don't want to do that, that's
fine. Stay in ignorant bliss, but don't bash the Mac because half the time
you won't know what your talking about.
It's not a religion for me, I just stand up to the Mac bashing bull shit.
I'll stand up to the untruths, the obnoxious comments and the put downs.
So if you guys don't want me eating up bandwidth, don't bash the Mac or
dish out the insults.
I'd rather talk about something else like Logic Studio 8; )
|
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90090 is a reply to message #90087] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 11:00 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Last I heard, Apple was having the MOBOs made by Intel, that may not be
>> every
>That was my guess.
>
>> model. There's no way in hell a cheap PC case can even compare to a Mac
>> Pro case, don't even try to compare them. LaMont is right, the MacPro
>> case
>> is in a totally different league! Typical Mac basher, now your going
to
>> twist Apple dropping prices and say it's a bad thing, that it's some kind
>> of rip off of the people. That's bullshit!
>
>I said Mac cases were nice - there isn't an off the shelf PC case that is
>the same design, but that doesn't
>make other cases crap and Mac cases someone God's gift to the computer
>world. It's a friggin aluminum
>case. My discussion was about the hardware inside, and you and Lamont turn
>it into a "but look at the case!!" comparison. What are you guys buying
>your Macs for - furniture? It sits in a machine room (here at least, and
in
>all production houses I know of), so who cares what it looks like, other
>than home users?? But, we were talking about higher end machines, right?
>Or are we talking
>about machines for home users?
Both.
No, you were making an ignorant blanket statement that Mac cost 40-50% more
that PCs. Looking for a fair comparison. So make a fair comparison, and
compare a new Mac to a new Dell or HP. You won't because you know your wrong.
>
>Maybe if you were a little less enamoured with the world of the great Apple
>and a little more in touch
>with the fact that it's a business to make a profit off of people buying
it
>hook line and sinker just like you, then you would see it for what it is
-
>hardware and software. That's it. Not the world's greatest discovery since
>fire and bread. Just a product sold to make money.
I see it as more than just hardware and software, because it is more than
just hardware and software, but you don't get that. You also don't get that
the hardware and software are higher end. Some people get that.
>
>Why is it so many Mac users can't seem to have an objective discussion?
>Answer that honestly before
>you go calling anyone else a Mac basher. Mac users here aren't the only
>ones I deal with - seems to be a disease of
>defensiveness you get when you buy one, but it's uncanny, seriously uncanny
>and sad. That's how monopolies and bully
>companies are built - blindly loyal customers. Be careful, you may get what
>you never wished for.
>
Why do you and others here bash the Mac as soon as there is a discussion?
it's unnecessary. Personally I would prefer that we change the discussion!
But hey, throw some more gas on the fire. Keep making insults and make
sure you get personal. Monopolies and bullies? Open your eyes and look
at your beloved Microsoft! There is a long history there. Apple started
this whole thing by innovating and creating. All Microsoft can do is copy,
steal, and bully. Get real! who's a blindly loyal customer? I use both,
how about you?
>Yet again, for the 11234098340th time you didn't read what I (or anyone
>else) writes and you assume we are bashing. We try to have logical
>discussions here, but you take everything as a slight on your beloved Apple.
>This alone makes me want to avoid Apple products like the plague. You've
>pretty much dominated the computer discussions here that used to be useful,
>but not so much anymore. Every computer discussion gets turned into an
>Apple advertisement, so yes, we will defend our points of view, but only
>because we get inundated by your Apple mantra every time the words PC, Mac,
>Apple, microsoft or computer come up in a thread.
>
No, I know your bashing, and others here also know your bashing, but they
choose to stay out of it. No, every-time any thing mac is mentioned you
and a few others that don't even have much experience with current Macs,
take pot shots, spew untruths, and get down right insulting, like you are
right now!
>Why don't you go to Apples' forum and share your enthusiasm there? I think
>you'll have a lot more fun hearing people agree with you all of the time.
>Sorry I responded to you in the first place. My mistake. Won't happen
>again.
>
>Dedric
Your entitled to your opinion, just don't spew untruths that macs cost 40-50%
more than a PC, because it's not true. Even your pieced together PC was
not 40% less. You didn't account for the cost of shipping the parts either,
or the potential cost of tech support with multiple companies.
Why don't we all just stop? I know we all have better things to do!
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:46f3ef26$1@linux...
>>
>> Last I heard, Apple was having the MOBOs made by Intel, that may not be
>> every
>> model. There's no way in hell a cheap PC case can even compare to a Mac
>> Pro case, don't even try to compare them. LaMont is right, the MacPro
>> case
>> is in a totally different league! Typical Mac basher, now your going
to
>> twist Apple dropping prices and say it's a bad thing, that it's some kind
>> of rip off of the people. That's bullshit!
>>
>> Why don't you do a fair comparison like Apple to Dell or HP? You can't,
>> because you know that the difference is not 40%- 50%!
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>>>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>>>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire
>>>(Tyans
>>>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
>> -
>>>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and
>>>lower
>>>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
>> but
>>>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>>>
>>>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
>> ones
>>>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
>> of
>>>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a
Tyan
>>>if building a dual xeon though.
>>>
>>>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
>> a
>>>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to
buy
>> a
>>>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
>> 5%
>>>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>>>
>>>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>>>doesn't mind).
>>>
>>>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected
half
>>>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>>>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
>> when
>>>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>>>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>>>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>>>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes,
but
>>>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until
you
>>>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>>>Mac or PC).
>>>
>>>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>>>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and
the
>>>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>>>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
>> a
>>>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>>>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>>>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>>>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>>>
>>>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design
>>>around
>>>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
>> one
>>>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>>>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>>>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>>>
>>>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
>> at
>>>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
>> nice
>>>for home users, and to have in general.
>>>
>>>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>>>
>>>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>>>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>>>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a
$500
>>>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>>>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before
>>>Apple)
>>>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a
>>>future
>>>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and
>>>development
>>>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>>>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>>>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>>>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>>>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>>>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about
our
>>>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are
a
>> good
>>>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>>>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>>>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>>>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>>>associate quality with price.
>>>
>>>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses -
I
>>>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an
>>>informed
>>>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the
>>>average
>>>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>>>actual technical design and capabilities.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Dedric
>>>
>>>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>><jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good comparision guys.
>>>>
>>>> What this tells me is:
>>>>
>>>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a
lot
>>>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>>>
>>>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
>> We're
>>>> talking totally different leagues.
>>>>
>>>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>
>>>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
>> a quad
>>>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two
>>>>> Xeons).
>>>>>
>>>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
>> when
>>>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
>> from
>>>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power
as
>> the
>>>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
>> on
>>>> buss
>>>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be
>>>>> negated
>>>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
>> for
>>>> us
>>>>> to compare.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is
>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
>> blanket
>>>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the
>>>>>> challenge,
>>>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far
off
>>>> the
>>>>>> pricing is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
>> The
>>>> only
>>>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came
out
>>>> with
>>>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>>>> will
>>>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far
off
>>>> as
>>>>>> you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>
>>>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>>>
>>>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>>>
>>>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>>>
>>>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>>>
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>>>
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>>>
>>>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>>>
>>>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe
>>>>> MacPros
>>>> do,
>>>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video
card
>>>> is
>>>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher
>>>>> than
>>>> a
>>>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
>> 3
>>>> on
>>>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still
be
>>>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are
in
>> use
>>>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>>>
>>>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same
>>>>> hardware,
>>>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $3,298.00
>>>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $3,997.00
>>>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>> ,
>>>> so
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>> asked
>>>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>>>> running
>>>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
>> home
>>>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer
buys
>>>> a
>>>>>> Mac,
>>>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple
>>>>>>> sells
>>>> most
>>>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>>>> to
>>>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>>>> moms
>>>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display
>>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>> ,
>>>> so
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far
it
>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting
one
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
>> know
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>>>.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside
>>>>>>>>>> CompUSA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
>> strategy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
>> I
>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
>> a
>>>> real
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone
like
>>>> me
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and
so
>> on.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
>> thumb
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be
>>>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice,
but
>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
>> want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do
you
>>>> think
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>>>> vs
>>>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
>> between
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
>> he
>>>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>>>> share
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90091 is a reply to message #90079] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 11:08 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Dedric good points..
I would add that, right now I'm kinda in-different about the Apple/Logic
Studio pricing. I agree with you that, perception in pro-audio is king. If
something is sold cheap, then it must not be as good as the more expensive
item. Think Paris vs Pro Tools circa 1999.
But, I did think both Nuendo and Logic 7 was overpriced a tad. I'm glad I
was an early adpoter of Nuendo and got for $600.00 back in 2001. But, if
I'm honest iwould have to say that that app(Neundo) has paid for it's self
hundreds times over. So, price is a realitive issue. I see you point.
Just like the movie Predator vs Alien, I think we the consumers of pro-audio
are caught up in a war between Apple and Microsoft(Digidesing). Yes. for
all of you who don't know, microsoft is Advid's largest investor. Bailed
them out back in 2002..
This war is going to get ugly. With blood (MOTU's Performer) becoming a scoring
daw only. As well as, Roland's Cakewalk Sonar, and yes, even Yammmy's Steingberg.
You know Digi is going to answer the bell, with a new LE/M-Powered say 128
track(64 stereo), with all the bells for $500.00
They have to at this point, or they will loose out to Apple.
Yammy can make a big play by going after the Mid-pro market with a super
cool DAW controller that's cheaper than 10K(O2R96) and the 17K(DM2000).
Say 4-5k DAW controller for Cubase4.
However, I think the Nuendo Folks need something along the lines of the Euphonix
MC-5. Yamaha can do it.
edric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire (Tyans
>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
-
>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and lower
>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
but
>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>
>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
ones
>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
of
>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a Tyan
>if building a dual xeon though.
>
>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
a
>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to buy
a
>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
5%
>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>
>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>doesn't mind).
>
>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected half
>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
when
>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes, but
>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until you
>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>Mac or PC).
>
>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and the
>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
a
>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>
>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design around
>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
one
>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>
>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
at
>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
nice
>for home users, and to have in general.
>
>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>
>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a $500
>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before Apple)
>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a future
>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and development
>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a
good
>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>associate quality with price.
>
>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses - I
>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an informed
>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the average
>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>actual technical design and capabilities.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Good comparision guys.
>>
>> What this tells me is:
>>
>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>
>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
We're
>> talking totally different leagues.
>>
>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>
>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
a quad
>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two Xeons).
>>>
>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
when
>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
from
>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as
the
>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
on
>> buss
>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be negated
>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>
>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
for
>> us
>>> to compare.
>>>
>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is accurate
>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
blanket
>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the challenge,
>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
>> the
>>>> pricing is.
>>>>
>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
The
>> only
>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
>> with
>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>> will
>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
>> as
>>>> you think they are.
>>>>
>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>>
>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>
>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>
>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>
>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>
>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>
>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>
>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe MacPros
>> do,
>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
>> is
>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher than
>> a
>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
3
>> on
>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>
>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in
use
>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>
>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same hardware,
>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> $3,298.00
>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon “Woodcrest” processors
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>> $3,997.00
>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
,
>> so
>>>> that
>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>
>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't
>> asked
>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>> running
>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>
>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
home
>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>> a
>>>> Mac,
>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>> Windows,
>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>
>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells
>> most
>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>> to
>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>> moms
>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting
>>>> their
>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
,
>> so
>>>> that
>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it
doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
>> for
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
know
>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>
>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
strategy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
I
>> agree
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
a
>> real
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
>> me
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so
on.
>>>> But
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
thumb
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting
>>>> any
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
or
>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
>> it's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with
>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
>> think
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>> vs
>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>> for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
between
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
he
>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>> share
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90094 is a reply to message #90063] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 11:21 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I think the attraction of boot camp, (or the virtual machine options) to
run other operating systems on a Mac, is for people who have legacy
MSWindows apps and an old, tired intel box, who really want to upgrade
and at the same time move to a Mac. It helps them to be able to run
multiple operating systems on a single newer, faster box. That
represents a less expensive option than getting a Mac AND an upgraded
MSWindows box. Two birds with one stone.
Over time, they'll probably replace apps with OSX versions where
possible, but not having to do that all at once saves immediate $$ and
offers immediate productivity boosts.
Another case is people who have legacy apps that will never be upgraded
or ported to OSX, and so they may need to run MSWindows once in a blue
moon, but they still want to move forward with a Mac.
A third case is people who do development work and want to test on
multiple platforms. It's very convenient to do it all in one box.
Those cases don't describe everyone, of course. A lot of people just
want to run OSX and don't care about running MSWindows on their Macs. A
lot of other people just want to run their MSWindows apps and likely
have no compelling reason to buy a Mac for that.
There are very few choices left. Running multiple operating systems on
one box adds a viable choice to the market for those who see a benefit.
Choices are good (the other thing I say all the time :^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Dedric Terry wrote:
>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so that
>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>
> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I haven't asked
> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows running
> on a more expensive box.
>
> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many home
> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys a Mac,
> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want Windows,
> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>
> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple sells most
> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000 to
> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still more
> costly than any other.
>
> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>
> Dedric
>
>
>
> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks, moms
>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display waiting their
>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>
>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded , so that
>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>
>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple backdrop
>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it doesn't
>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>
>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one for
>> my
>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>
>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't know
>> how
>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>> ( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category).
>>>>
>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside CompUSA
>> and
>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>
>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>
>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store strategy
>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_3-60
>>>> 75868.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and I agree
>>>>> with
>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had a real
>>>>> way
>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like me
>> will
>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so on. But
>>>>> for
>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively thumb
>>>>> their
>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be getting any
>>>>> serious
>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart or
>>>>> whatever
>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but it's
>> not
>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they want
>> to
>>>>> protect
>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing with the
>>>>> plebes
>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>
>>>>> TCB
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you think
>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost vs sale
>>>>> price.
>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants 1000".
>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders for
>>>>>> christ
>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange between
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and he (bill)
>>>>> never
>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market share
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chuck
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90095 is a reply to message #90075] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 11:30 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Why don't you admit that the 400 MHz Mac you have is a POS because it
can
>> stand up to your 3GHz PCs. By the the way, who used the Mac in your
>> house?
>> Speaking of Macs, I thought you were the guy that had to have the latest
>> greatest system on the planet, well right now it's a Mac. Don't worry,
>> Microsoft
>> will steal more stuff from Apple and get Vista working in a year or so.
>> Then all you PC zealots can tell all us Mac users how great Vista is and
>> how Mac OS sucks.
>>
>I used it when it was state of the art and it just sucked compared to PC's
>so now I should go buy another one? Yeah.....I'm there dude!!!Like I said,
>I've used Apple machines in the past and am familiar enough with the new
>ones to know that they are nice, but overpiced for my needs .I don't "do
>iPOD or iPhone. I'd probably get beat up by the "good ol' boys" around here
>if I pulled one of those frilly little pretty things out in the presence
of
>a bunch of "real men". I need stuff that's chunky looking, painted flat
>black and emits guttural grunts when it rings.
>
>;O)
>
It's a whole new Mac world Dj, the past does not equal the present or the
future. Are you going to be happy stuck with Windows XP in to the future,
you know Vista isn't happening yet. At least Apple is moving in the right
direction and Logic look great. If your happy where your at that's cool.
The fruit comments are old and lame. Apple stopped building iMacs with fruit
colored names about 7 years ago. Apple also killed the rainbow Apple logo,
because of the gay adoption of rainbow everything. Notice they went to a
solid colored logo. So why don't you quit with the insults?
So real men don't use Apple products? That's ridiculous!
>>>
>>>> Steve Jobs is not cool, he only created the personal computer industry
>> in
>>>> his bed room; )
>>>
>>>Spoken like a true brainbwashee. Carry on.
>>>
>>
>> No, spoken like the truth. In 1976-1977 the only affordable personal
>> computer
>> was the altair kit, which you had to build. It was not a modern personal
>> computer, it's interface was toggle switches and lights. Yes. Steve Jobs
>> and Steve Wozniak kicked off the Personal computer industry with the first
>> affordable modern computer. The computer was dreamed up and built in Steve
>> Jobs bed room when he was about 19 years old. You can thank Steve W.
for
>> incorporating the keyboard and the cathode ray tube, not to mention many
>> other things. These guys innovated and pointed the whole industry in
the
>> direction the industry has gone. There are many innovations these guys
>> brought
>> to the industry, they both deserve some gratitude.
>>
>> As I've said many times use what you want, just don't bash the Mac!
>
>Doesn't make Jobs cool (though I did think Wozniak was cool). If Woz was
the
>face of Apple these days, I'd probably have a more favorable impression.
Woz
>RAWX.
>
>;o)
>
>
>
Just about everything Steve Jobs builds is cool! Steve Jobs was and is the
visionary of Apple. He was the one that had the ideas and talked Woz in
to helping him building the computers and selling them to the average guy.
It's too bad you can't see the genus in that.
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