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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90099 is a reply to message #90079] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 11:59   |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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Dedric Terry wrote:
> The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a future
> - still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and development
> focus of a $2000 app.
Actually there's zero mystery about the status of Shake. No one I know
in the animation community is wondering about it, and for good reason.
Shake IS discontinued. Apple announced the end of life status along with
the price drop over a year ago.
Yes it's a great app and a steal at $500, but Apple apparently wants to
make a major change. This will take time. Stay tuned. Any announcements
about the new app would likely be around an NAB sometime in the next few
years.
Some of Shake's features have been added to Motion 3 in the mean time
(woo!).
Here's the summary from wiki:
At the NAB event in April 2006, Apple announced that Shake 4.1 would be
a Universal Binary version and would ship in May that year. It was
actually released on 20 June 2006 and was rebranded as a companion for
Final Cut Studio[6]; as such, its price was dropped from $2999 to $499
for Mac OS X (but remained the same for Linux). At the same time, Apple
also announced that they would end support for Shake, as they begin work
on the next-generation software, expected to be known as codename
Phenomenon [7] Existing maintenance program subscribers had the option
to license the Shake source code for $50,000 USD.
This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
> price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
> software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
> may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
> audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
> mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
> industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a good
> deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
> hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
> conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
> sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
> associate quality with price.
Luckily you have to pony up for a Mac to run it, eh? ;^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90110 is a reply to message #90091] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 13:10 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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Hi Lamont -
I didn't know MS had invested in Avid. Interesting. I'm not sure that's a
good thing. Your thoughts?
I'm with most people/consumers that don't really want Microsoft with their
fingers in more than selling software,
though even that venture can be questionable at times.
I got Nuendo through crossgrades/upgrades, so like you, there wasn't the
brundt of
a full retail price investment, but it has more than paid for itself anyway.
Nuendo probably could come down a little in price just looking at raw
numbers in the DAW software market (though Sequoia is, imho, far above in
the overpriced department), but I think to compete with ProTools, it
probably has to stay where it is. The MC integration is excellent, but
obviously it isn't a Nuendo-only hardware solution, so you have a good point
that Nuendo needs that kind of direct, and unique association to really pit
itself against ProTools.
You hit the nail on the head of what users have been begging for a few years
now - a Yammy controller for Nuendo in the $4-5k range. Bingo - huge market
in a very obvious void - there is nothing between Mackie MCUs and the
ID/MC/Digi controller/O2R/DM2000 range, but easily could be, and it would
sell like crazy, and if it were a Nuendo-integrated controller,
it would be a huge boost for Nuendo.
I think Nuendo 4 might be a strong step in that direction - with some pretty
fantastic automation (from what I hear);
a directly linked in version of Virtual Katy for post conform; and some
other really nice additions (eventually we'll get dual mono track support as
well to ease the pain of OMF's antiquity). Time will tell. I don't want to
see Logic lose its' solid reputation.
To many users it probably doesn't matter where price is the main deciding
factor, but longterm support is questionable with lower priced products.
Also don't want to see DP in trouble either. I guess Adobe Premiere has
somewhat survived to some degree against FCP (albeit by going multiplatform
and being only one of several successful products), so DP probably will as
well, but Adobe has Acrobat to support them. MOTU probably lives on
hardware, so DP is probably safe.
Regards,
Dedric
"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.net> wrote in message news:46f4089e$1@linux...
>
> Hey Dedric good points..
>
> I would add that, right now I'm kinda in-different about the Apple/Logic
> Studio pricing. I agree with you that, perception in pro-audio is king. If
> something is sold cheap, then it must not be as good as the more expensive
> item. Think Paris vs Pro Tools circa 1999.
>
> But, I did think both Nuendo and Logic 7 was overpriced a tad. I'm glad I
> was an early adpoter of Nuendo and got for $600.00 back in 2001. But, if
> I'm honest iwould have to say that that app(Neundo) has paid for it's self
> hundreds times over. So, price is a realitive issue. I see you point.
>
> Just like the movie Predator vs Alien, I think we the consumers of
> pro-audio
> are caught up in a war between Apple and Microsoft(Digidesing). Yes. for
> all of you who don't know, microsoft is Advid's largest investor. Bailed
> them out back in 2002..
>
> This war is going to get ugly. With blood (MOTU's Performer) becoming a
> scoring
> daw only. As well as, Roland's Cakewalk Sonar, and yes, even Yammmy's
> Steingberg.
>
> You know Digi is going to answer the bell, with a new LE/M-Powered say 128
> track(64 stereo), with all the bells for $500.00
> They have to at this point, or they will loose out to Apple.
>
> Yammy can make a big play by going after the Mid-pro market with a super
> cool DAW controller that's cheaper than 10K(O2R96) and the 17K(DM2000).
> Say 4-5k DAW controller for Cubase4.
>
> However, I think the Nuendo Folks need something along the lines of the
> Euphonix
> MC-5. Yamaha can do it.
>
>
> edric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire
>>(Tyans
>>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
> -
>>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and
>>lower
>>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
> but
>>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>>
>>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
> ones
>>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
> of
>>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a Tyan
>>if building a dual xeon though.
>>
>>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
> a
>>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to buy
> a
>>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
> 5%
>>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>>
>>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>>doesn't mind).
>>
>>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected half
>>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
> when
>>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes, but
>>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until you
>>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>>Mac or PC).
>>
>>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and the
>>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
> a
>>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>>
>>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design
>>around
>>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
> one
>>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>>
>>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
> at
>>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
> nice
>>for home users, and to have in general.
>>
>>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>>
>>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a $500
>>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before
>>Apple)
>>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a
>>future
>>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and
>>development
>>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about our
>>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are a
> good
>>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>>associate quality with price.
>>
>>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses - I
>>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an
>>informed
>>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the
>>average
>>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>>actual technical design and capabilities.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dedric
>>
>>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont"
>><jjdpro@funk.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Good comparision guys.
>>>
>>> What this tells me is:
>>>
>>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a lot
>>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>>
>>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
> We're
>>> talking totally different leagues.
>>>
>>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>>
>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
> a quad
>>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two
>>>> Xeons).
>>>>
>>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
> when
>>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
> from
>>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power as
> the
>>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
> on
>>> buss
>>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be
>>>> negated
>>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>>
>>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
> for
>>> us
>>>> to compare.
>>>>
>>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is
>>>>> accurate
>>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
> blanket
>>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the
>>>>> challenge,
>>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far off
>>> the
>>>>> pricing is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
> The
>>> only
>>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came out
>>> with
>>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>>> will
>>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far off
>>> as
>>>>> you think they are.
>>>>>
>>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>
>>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>>
>>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>>
>>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>>
>>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>>
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>>
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>>
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>>
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>>
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>>
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>
>>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>>
>>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>>
>>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe
>>>> MacPros
>>> do,
>>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video card
>>> is
>>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher
>>>> than
>>> a
>>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
> 3
>>> on
>>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>>
>>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still be
>>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are in
> use
>>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>>
>>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same
>>>> hardware,
>>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> $3,298.00
>>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>> $3,997.00
>>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
> ,
>>> so
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I
>>>>>> haven't
>>> asked
>>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>>> running
>>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
> home
>>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer buys
>>> a
>>>>> Mac,
>>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple
>>>>>> sells
>>> most
>>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>>> to
>>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>>> moms
>>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display
>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>> their
>>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
> ,
>>> so
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far it
> doesn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting one
>>> for
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
> know
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>>
>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>>.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside
>>>>>>>>> CompUSA
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
> strategy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
> I
>>> agree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
> a
>>> real
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone like
>>> me
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and so
> on.
>>>>> But
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
> thumb
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be
>>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>> any
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
> or
>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice, but
>>> it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
> want
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do you
>>> think
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>>> vs
>>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000".
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>>> for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
> between
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
> he
>>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>>> share
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90112 is a reply to message #90110] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 14:02 |
LaMont jjdprofunkcom
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2007
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Junior Member |
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Agreed.. Motu is on solid ground with it's Hardware lineup. As well as, hiring
Windows programmers for the last 4 years straight.
However, Digital Performer, while being wonderful!, is not what the majority
of DAW users want. Okay, let me reatract that. Today's DAW users want:
-Audio recording speed of : Pro Tools & Nuendo/Cubaseand now Logic 8.
-Sample accurate editing
-Flexible routing
-*Uncluttered looking interface.
-Audio first, then midi based app..
It's funny, Digital Performer has all the above and more BUT!!!,
it's interface and Midi first, then Audio workflow is antequated.
If DP is to survive, it must adopt the Clean, lean Audio first Layout like
Apple has done to Logic. Hey, I was one of those folks screemings at Apple/Emagic
to change up that old interface, and adopt the Audio first layout..Or, deep
pockected Hollywood Composers will have to shell out $$$ to keep that app
going in it's current workflow direction.
Avid: Yeah, Microsoft bailed them out. To the point of Adid is really a Microsoft
company. If you think back in 2002, that's when Digi started to code a "real"
working" Windows version of Pro Tools. Not only did Microsoft give up cash$$$
but, they lent Digi Windows App developers.
Digi then, told all of their then (Mac Only) partners that the company would
be going Windows and that the Win platform will be just as important as the
mac platform..The first friuts was RTAS/WDM drivers.
All of the above was a direct shot at Apple who had just announced that they'd
just purchaed Emagic...?
Avid saw the handwritting on the wall..They new Apple would one day make
a very proprietarty updated Logic 8 that was Mac only and cost a fraction
of what Digi had.
But, Digi is ready.. They purchased as you know, M-Audio & Wizoo. Two very
talented Pro audio companies. M-Audio makes arguably soem of the best drivers
for the Windows market and other low-mid market devices. While Wizoo (now
A.I.R) makes some the better Plugins and Virtual Instruments.
Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one corner,
Digi in the other.
Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Hi Lamont -
>
>I didn't know MS had invested in Avid. Interesting. I'm not sure that's
a
>good thing. Your thoughts?
>I'm with most people/consumers that don't really want Microsoft with their
>fingers in more than selling software,
>though even that venture can be questionable at times.
>
>I got Nuendo through crossgrades/upgrades, so like you, there wasn't the
>brundt of
>a full retail price investment, but it has more than paid for itself anyway.
>
>Nuendo probably could come down a little in price just looking at raw
>numbers in the DAW software market (though Sequoia is, imho, far above in
>the overpriced department), but I think to compete with ProTools, it
>probably has to stay where it is. The MC integration is excellent, but
>obviously it isn't a Nuendo-only hardware solution, so you have a good point
>that Nuendo needs that kind of direct, and unique association to really
pit
>itself against ProTools.
>
>You hit the nail on the head of what users have been begging for a few years
>now - a Yammy controller for Nuendo in the $4-5k range. Bingo - huge market
>in a very obvious void - there is nothing between Mackie MCUs and the
>ID/MC/Digi controller/O2R/DM2000 range, but easily could be, and it would
>sell like crazy, and if it were a Nuendo-integrated controller,
>it would be a huge boost for Nuendo.
>
>I think Nuendo 4 might be a strong step in that direction - with some pretty
>fantastic automation (from what I hear);
>a directly linked in version of Virtual Katy for post conform; and some
>other really nice additions (eventually we'll get dual mono track support
as
>well to ease the pain of OMF's antiquity). Time will tell. I don't want
to
>see Logic lose its' solid reputation.
>To many users it probably doesn't matter where price is the main deciding
>factor, but longterm support is questionable with lower priced products.
>Also don't want to see DP in trouble either. I guess Adobe Premiere has
>somewhat survived to some degree against FCP (albeit by going multiplatform
>and being only one of several successful products), so DP probably will
as
>well, but Adobe has Acrobat to support them. MOTU probably lives on
>hardware, so DP is probably safe.
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.net> wrote in message news:46f4089e$1@linux...
>>
>> Hey Dedric good points..
>>
>> I would add that, right now I'm kinda in-different about the Apple/Logic
>> Studio pricing. I agree with you that, perception in pro-audio is king.
If
>> something is sold cheap, then it must not be as good as the more expensive
>> item. Think Paris vs Pro Tools circa 1999.
>>
>> But, I did think both Nuendo and Logic 7 was overpriced a tad. I'm glad
I
>> was an early adpoter of Nuendo and got for $600.00 back in 2001. But,
if
>> I'm honest iwould have to say that that app(Neundo) has paid for it's
self
>> hundreds times over. So, price is a realitive issue. I see you point.
>>
>> Just like the movie Predator vs Alien, I think we the consumers of
>> pro-audio
>> are caught up in a war between Apple and Microsoft(Digidesing). Yes.
for
>> all of you who don't know, microsoft is Advid's largest investor. Bailed
>> them out back in 2002..
>>
>> This war is going to get ugly. With blood (MOTU's Performer) becoming
a
>> scoring
>> daw only. As well as, Roland's Cakewalk Sonar, and yes, even Yammmy's
>> Steingberg.
>>
>> You know Digi is going to answer the bell, with a new LE/M-Powered say
128
>> track(64 stereo), with all the bells for $500.00
>> They have to at this point, or they will loose out to Apple.
>>
>> Yammy can make a big play by going after the Mid-pro market with a super
>> cool DAW controller that's cheaper than 10K(O2R96) and the 17K(DM2000).
>> Say 4-5k DAW controller for Cubase4.
>>
>> However, I think the Nuendo Folks need something along the lines of the
>> Euphonix
>> MC-5. Yamaha can do it.
>>
>>
>> edric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>>>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>>>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire
>>>(Tyans
>>>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
>> -
>>>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and
>>>lower
>>>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
>> but
>>>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>>>
>>>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
>> ones
>>>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
>> of
>>>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a
Tyan
>>>if building a dual xeon though.
>>>
>>>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
>> a
>>>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to
buy
>> a
>>>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
>> 5%
>>>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>>>
>>>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>>>doesn't mind).
>>>
>>>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected
half
>>>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>>>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
>> when
>>>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>>>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>>>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>>>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes,
but
>>>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until
you
>>>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than $5k,
>>>Mac or PC).
>>>
>>>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>>>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and
the
>>>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro case,
>>>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
>> a
>>>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>>>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>>>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they are
>>>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>>>
>>>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design
>>>around
>>>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
>> one
>>>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>>>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>>>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>>>
>>>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
>> at
>>>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
>> nice
>>>for home users, and to have in general.
>>>
>>>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>>>
>>>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value even)
>>>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>>>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a
$500
>>>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>>>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before
>>>Apple)
>>>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a
>>>future
>>>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and
>>>development
>>>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>>>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>>>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple users
>>>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>>>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make no
>>>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about
our
>>>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are
a
>> good
>>>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>>>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>>>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>>>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>>>associate quality with price.
>>>
>>>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses -
I
>>>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an
>>>informed
>>>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the
>>>average
>>>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference than
>>>actual technical design and capabilities.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Dedric
>>>
>>>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>><jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good comparision guys.
>>>>
>>>> What this tells me is:
>>>>
>>>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's a
lot
>>>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>>>
>>>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
>> We're
>>>> talking totally different leagues.
>>>>
>>>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>>>
>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>
>>>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
>> a quad
>>>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two
>>>>> Xeons).
>>>>>
>>>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
>> when
>>>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
>> from
>>>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power
as
>> the
>>>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
>> on
>>>> buss
>>>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be
>>>>> negated
>>>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
>> for
>>>> us
>>>>> to compare.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is
>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind of
>> blanket
>>>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the
>>>>>> challenge,
>>>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far
off
>>>> the
>>>>>> pricing is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
>> The
>>>> only
>>>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came
out
>>>> with
>>>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>>>> will
>>>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far
off
>>>> as
>>>>>> you think they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>
>>>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>>>
>>>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>>>
>>>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>>>
>>>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>>>
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>>>
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>
>>>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>>>
>>>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>>>
>>>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe
>>>>> MacPros
>>>> do,
>>>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video
card
>>>> is
>>>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher
>>>>> than
>>>> a
>>>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots vs.
>> 3
>>>> on
>>>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still
be
>>>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are
in
>> use
>>>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>>>
>>>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be the
>>>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same
>>>>> hardware,
>>>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $3,298.00
>>>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $3,997.00
>>>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>> ,
>>>> so
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>> asked
>>>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>>>> running
>>>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
>> home
>>>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer
buys
>>>> a
>>>>>> Mac,
>>>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple
>>>>>>> sells
>>>> most
>>>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from $1000
>>>> to
>>>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>>>> moms
>>>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display
>>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>> ,
>>>> so
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white Apple
>>>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far
it
>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting
one
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
>> know
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>>>.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside
>>>>>>>>>> CompUSA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
>> strategy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
>> I
>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple had
>> a
>>>> real
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone
like
>>>> me
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and
so
>> on.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
>> thumb
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be
>>>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice,
but
>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
>> want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do
you
>>>> think
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component cost
>>>> vs
>>>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
>> between
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
>> he
>>>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>>>> share
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90116 is a reply to message #90112] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 14:20 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ohh.. One other thing..
Digi always purchased Abelton Live. We've been told that the next version
of Pro Tools will have "Elastic Audio" built-in (Wink Wink) Thanks to Live..
Then, Live will morph right into ProTools.
Yes, Steingberg will be around just like Sonar, but least use our heads for
second, and not our hearts. Apple with it's 500.00 dollar DAW suite.. And
Digi with Microsofts$$ will answer with it's own suite..
The Big Guns are showing their arsenal. And to my site, both are looking
like reaaly strong..
Yamaha will have to MAN up(ladies) and come out swinging like Roland is trying
to do with Sonar and it's new Digital Mixers/Controllers.
Form here on out, it's time to step up or be "road-kill"..
"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>
>Agreed.. Motu is on solid ground with it's Hardware lineup. As well as,
hiring
>Windows programmers for the last 4 years straight.
>
>However, Digital Performer, while being wonderful!, is not what the majority
>of DAW users want. Okay, let me reatract that. Today's DAW users want:
>
>-Audio recording speed of : Pro Tools & Nuendo/Cubaseand now Logic 8.
>
>-Sample accurate editing
>
>-Flexible routing
>
>-*Uncluttered looking interface.
>
>-Audio first, then midi based app..
>
>It's funny, Digital Performer has all the above and more BUT!!!,
>it's interface and Midi first, then Audio workflow is antequated.
>
>If DP is to survive, it must adopt the Clean, lean Audio first Layout like
>Apple has done to Logic. Hey, I was one of those folks screemings at Apple/Emagic
>to change up that old interface, and adopt the Audio first layout..Or, deep
>pockected Hollywood Composers will have to shell out $$$ to keep that app
>going in it's current workflow direction.
>
>Avid: Yeah, Microsoft bailed them out. To the point of Adid is really a
Microsoft
>company. If you think back in 2002, that's when Digi started to code a "real"
>working" Windows version of Pro Tools. Not only did Microsoft give up cash$$$
>but, they lent Digi Windows App developers.
>
>Digi then, told all of their then (Mac Only) partners that the company would
>be going Windows and that the Win platform will be just as important as
the
>mac platform..The first friuts was RTAS/WDM drivers.
>
>All of the above was a direct shot at Apple who had just announced that
they'd
>just purchaed Emagic...?
>
>Avid saw the handwritting on the wall..They new Apple would one day make
>a very proprietarty updated Logic 8 that was Mac only and cost a fraction
>of what Digi had.
>
>But, Digi is ready.. They purchased as you know, M-Audio & Wizoo. Two very
>talented Pro audio companies. M-Audio makes arguably soem of the best drivers
>for the Windows market and other low-mid market devices. While Wizoo (now
>A.I.R) makes some the better Plugins and Virtual Instruments.
>
>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one corner,
>Digi in the other.
>
>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>
>
>
>"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>Hi Lamont -
>>
>>I didn't know MS had invested in Avid. Interesting. I'm not sure that's
>a
>>good thing. Your thoughts?
>>I'm with most people/consumers that don't really want Microsoft with their
>
>>fingers in more than selling software,
>>though even that venture can be questionable at times.
>>
>>I got Nuendo through crossgrades/upgrades, so like you, there wasn't the
>
>>brundt of
>>a full retail price investment, but it has more than paid for itself anyway.
>>
>>Nuendo probably could come down a little in price just looking at raw
>>numbers in the DAW software market (though Sequoia is, imho, far above
in
>
>>the overpriced department), but I think to compete with ProTools, it
>>probably has to stay where it is. The MC integration is excellent, but
>
>>obviously it isn't a Nuendo-only hardware solution, so you have a good
point
>
>>that Nuendo needs that kind of direct, and unique association to really
>pit
>>itself against ProTools.
>>
>>You hit the nail on the head of what users have been begging for a few
years
>
>>now - a Yammy controller for Nuendo in the $4-5k range. Bingo - huge market
>
>>in a very obvious void - there is nothing between Mackie MCUs and the
>>ID/MC/Digi controller/O2R/DM2000 range, but easily could be, and it would
>
>>sell like crazy, and if it were a Nuendo-integrated controller,
>>it would be a huge boost for Nuendo.
>>
>>I think Nuendo 4 might be a strong step in that direction - with some pretty
>
>>fantastic automation (from what I hear);
>>a directly linked in version of Virtual Katy for post conform; and some
>
>>other really nice additions (eventually we'll get dual mono track support
>as
>>well to ease the pain of OMF's antiquity). Time will tell. I don't want
>to
>>see Logic lose its' solid reputation.
>>To many users it probably doesn't matter where price is the main deciding
>
>>factor, but longterm support is questionable with lower priced products.
>
>>Also don't want to see DP in trouble either. I guess Adobe Premiere has
>
>>somewhat survived to some degree against FCP (albeit by going multiplatform
>
>>and being only one of several successful products), so DP probably will
>as
>>well, but Adobe has Acrobat to support them. MOTU probably lives on
>>hardware, so DP is probably safe.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dedric
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.net> wrote in message news:46f4089e$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Hey Dedric good points..
>>>
>>> I would add that, right now I'm kinda in-different about the Apple/Logic
>>> Studio pricing. I agree with you that, perception in pro-audio is king.
>If
>>> something is sold cheap, then it must not be as good as the more expensive
>>> item. Think Paris vs Pro Tools circa 1999.
>>>
>>> But, I did think both Nuendo and Logic 7 was overpriced a tad. I'm glad
>I
>>> was an early adpoter of Nuendo and got for $600.00 back in 2001. But,
>if
>>> I'm honest iwould have to say that that app(Neundo) has paid for it's
>self
>>> hundreds times over. So, price is a realitive issue. I see you point.
>>>
>>> Just like the movie Predator vs Alien, I think we the consumers of
>>> pro-audio
>>> are caught up in a war between Apple and Microsoft(Digidesing). Yes.
>for
>>> all of you who don't know, microsoft is Advid's largest investor. Bailed
>>> them out back in 2002..
>>>
>>> This war is going to get ugly. With blood (MOTU's Performer) becoming
>a
>>> scoring
>>> daw only. As well as, Roland's Cakewalk Sonar, and yes, even Yammmy's
>
>>> Steingberg.
>>>
>>> You know Digi is going to answer the bell, with a new LE/M-Powered say
>128
>>> track(64 stereo), with all the bells for $500.00
>>> They have to at this point, or they will loose out to Apple.
>>>
>>> Yammy can make a big play by going after the Mid-pro market with a super
>>> cool DAW controller that's cheaper than 10K(O2R96) and the 17K(DM2000).
>>> Say 4-5k DAW controller for Cubase4.
>>>
>>> However, I think the Nuendo Folks need something along the lines of the
>
>>> Euphonix
>>> MC-5. Yamaha can do it.
>>>
>>>
>>> edric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>Lamont - I compared as close to what is really in a Mac pro as possible.
>>>>I didn't spec a Tyan board simply because they had more expansion options
>>>>than a Mac Pro board and most xeon server boards don't have firewire
>>>>(Tyans
>>>>didn't). MacPros aren't using a normal Tyan, Asus, MSI, etc server board
>>> -
>>>>it's a mix between a dual socket (if there are any) consumer board and
>
>>>>lower
>>>>end server as best I can tell from specs at least. Good board I'm sure,
>>> but
>>>>the MSI was as close to the same config as I could find.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry man, but MacPros don't seem to be using Tyan boards, at least not
>>> ones
>>>>I can find - though if you find out what they are using (along with brand
>>> of
>>>>Ram, HDs, etc) I would be interested to know. I would probably use a
>Tyan
>>>>if building a dual xeon though.
>>>>
>>>>However, and this is an important point to make (not against Macs - just
>>> a
>>>>general "what performance your money will buy" issue), it's cheaper to
>buy
>>> a
>>>>Conroe quad core, single cpu system than a dual xeon, and it gets about
>>> 5%
>>>>better performance than the dual xeons on Nuendo tests.
>>>>
>>>>See here: http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm (hopefully Chris
>>>>doesn't mind).
>>>>
>>>>The single quad core was noticeably better than the normally expected
>half
>>>>the performance of a dual quad xeon - some of that is probably due to
>>>>scaling issues (don't know how that performance translates to OSX), but
>>> when
>>>>you look at a single quad chip beating out (even slightly) a dual 2-core
>>>>xeon for 1/5th the price, you have to consider what is the best
>>>>value/performance ratio. Mac or PC, there is still a premium on xeons,
>>>>core-2 or quad. Certainly there are advantages to xeons over Conroes,
>but
>>>>when it comes to performance for what we do, I'm not seeing it (until
>you
>>>>get to a dual quad core, which is xeon only afaik, and not less than
$5k,
>>>>Mac or PC).
>>>>
>>>>The Coolermaster case was also the closest in size and having used one
>>>>recently in a build, I know the wiring routing is clean and neat, and
>the
>>>>case quality is good - not amazing but good. No, it isn't a Mac Pro
case,
>>>>but you do know that higher end cases have more fans and drive bays than
>>> a
>>>>Mac case, right? You are comparing visuals to actual function, but that's
>>>>not what really makes a computer well built. Also note that the power
>>>>supply is probably overkill compared to a MacPro supply - doubt they
are
>>>>using a $100 550W, but it could be.
>>>>
>>>>MacPro desktop cases are great, but it's still a nice aluminum design
>
>>>>around
>>>>a basic piece of hardware - the difference is that it is designed around
>>> one
>>>>motherboard, not any ATX or micro ATX, or CEB - just a single motherboard,
>>>>so no, there is no direct comparison, and you can't just upgrade your
>>>>motherboard at will - you have to buy a new Mac to do that.
>>>>
>>>>iLife value? Depends on what you need. I have no direct need for iLife
>>> at
>>>>work, though I would probably use it if I had a Mac, but certainly it's
>>> nice
>>>>for home users, and to have in general.
>>>>
>>>>Kind of a detour, but related to the software side of this discussion:
>>>>
>>>>Just remember though, Apple sells software cheap (below market value
even)
>>>>to earn hardware customers and build brand loyalty (obviously by evidence
>>>>here, it works). Logic went from being a $1000 app sans plugins to a
>$500
>>>>app *with* all of Emagic's plugins (which I and others paid for at one
>>>>time), Soundtrack, etc; Shake went from $2500 (I've heard $5k before
>
>>>>Apple)
>>>>to $500. The animation/3D community is now wondering if Shake has a
>>>>future
>>>>- still a great app, but a $500 app hardly gains the support and
>>>>development
>>>>focus of a $2000 app. This conversation is spreading about Logic's low
>>>>price. My opinion (and that of others I know) is that selling cheap
>>>>software is bad for the industry longterm, so in some respects Apple
users
>>>>may be supporting the decline of options and higher end products in the
>>>>audio market at least. Sure it looks great to Apple users, but make
no
>>>>mistake, Apple isn't doing the customer any favors - I'm talking about
>our
>>>>industry (pro audio), not the average user where iLife and iWorks are
>a
>>> good
>>>>deal compared to other options. Just a thought - not related to the
>>>>hardware discussion at hand, but since it's coming up in other
>>>>conversations, it's worth passing along. Kind of hate to see Logic being
>>>>sold cheap - it's a great program, but most professional industries
>>>>associate quality with price.
>>>>
>>>>Interesting discussion - I really don't care what system anyone uses
-
>I
>>>>just think it's wise to know the pros and cons with both to make an
>>>>informed
>>>>decision. Obviously our discussions are much more in depth than the
>>>>average
>>>>user - that's where displays and marketing make more of a difference
than
>>>>actual technical design and capabilities.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Dedric
>>>>
>>>>On 9/21/07 8:56 AM, in article 46f3dbb2$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>><jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good comparision guys.
>>>>>
>>>>> What this tells me is:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1- All things are not equal. How much can does the iLife08? That's
a
>lot
>>>>> of very cool software thrown in.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2- It's silly to compare a $60.00 cool master cast to the Mac Pro case.
>>> We're
>>>>> talking totally different leagues.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3-A MSI Mobo is not in the same league as a Tyan
>>>>>
>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True on the dual Xeons (which are quite a bit more than conroes, yet
>>> a quad
>>>>>> core conroe performs similarly to a dual 2-core Xeon system - actually
>>>>>> better with Nuendo), at $300 or so for the cpu vs. $1500 for two
>>>>>> Xeons).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So 40-50% probably really only applies to laptops off the shelf, but
>>> when
>>>>>> comparing performance there is a single-cpu quad core option missing
>>> from
>>>>>> the Apple line that is much more cost effective for the same power
>as
>>> the
>>>>>> dual xeon system (4 cores vs. 4 cores - xeons probably have the edge
>>> on
>>>>> buss
>>>>>> performance, but given the limited PCIe slot options, that could be
>
>>>>>> negated
>>>>>> to some degree - maybe Chris Ludwig will chime in here).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've put the Newegg/TigerDirect prices for the same parts below each
>>> for
>>>>> us
>>>>>> to compare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/20/07 11:56 PM, in article 46f35d11$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dedric, you say that a Mac cost 40-50% more, I don't think that is
>
>>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>>> if your talking about off the shelve computers. It's these kind
of
>>> blanket
>>>>>>> statements that make me want to set things strait. Here 's the
>>>>>>> challenge,
>>>>>>> go price the same configuration from Dell and HP. Let see how far
>off
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> pricing is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's start at the top, these are Apple's standard configurations.
>>> The
>>>>> only
>>>>>>> thing I've changed is the processors. By the way, Dell just came
>out
>>>>> with
>>>>>>> 3.2 GHz machines this week, so stick to the 3.0 GHzs. I'm sure Apple
>>>>> will
>>>>>>> be upgrading processor speeds soon. I think they won't be as far
>off
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> you think they are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $2499.00 or $59.00 a month
>>>>>>> Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Woodcrest 2.66GHz: 2 x $721 = $1442
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MSI 5000X dual socket 771 Server board (2xPCIe, 2xPCI-X, 1xPCI): $400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Antec 550W power supply: $100
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Coolermaster case: $60
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>> Crucial DDR667 1G (2x512): $34.99
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>> $70 (middle of the price range between Chaintech and EVGA or Asus)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>> Seagate SATA 3Gb/s, 250G: $80 (Hitachi: $67)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>> Plextor 18x burn, DL, CD/DVD burner: $40
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>> Basic keyboard and mouse: $30
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WinXP Pro: $139 (builder/OEM price)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Total separate parts price: $2326
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I went higher on the drive, DVD writer and memory than I believe
>>>>>> MacPros
>>>>> do,
>>>>>> so you could take another $75-$100 off the final price. The video
>card
>>>>> is
>>>>>> mid-range so that should be comparable, if not also a little higher
>
>>>>>> than
>>>>> a
>>>>>> Mac Pro's card. The motherboard I chose also has 5 PCI/e/X slots
vs.
>>> 3
>>>>> on
>>>>>> the Mac Pro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the Mac Pro isn't far off the same PC system, but it would still
>be
>>>>>> useful to know what make/model memory, drives, and motherboard are
>in
>>> use
>>>>>> (the latter being unknown/custom retrofitted with the OS dongle chip).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also a head to head comparison of the same app (Nuendo 4 might be
the
>>>>>> first/best choice for that) running performance tests on the same
>>>>>> hardware,
>>>>>> OSX vs. WinXP would be quite informative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $3,298.00
>>>>>>> Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
>>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $3,997.00
>>>>>>> Two 3.0 Quad-core intel Xeon
>>>>>>> 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
>>>>>>> NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
>>>>>>> 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
>>>>>>> 16x double-layer SuperDrive
>>>>>>> Apple Keyboard and Mighty Mouse
>>>>>>> Mac OSX and a software bundle including iLife '08
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>>> ,
>>>>> so
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They do? Never seen it in any of the Mac displays here, but I
>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>> asked
>>>>>>>> about it either. Plenty of PCs around - no real need to see Windows
>>>>> running
>>>>>>>> on a more expensive box.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So who would want to pay 40-50% more to run Windows? And how many
>>> home
>>>>>>>> users dual boot/switch OSs anyway? If a general-market customer
>buys
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> Mac,
>>>>>>>> they are buying the right to run OSX and a nice case. If they want
>>>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>>>> PCs are much less expensive with more options.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Better marketing, but the same hardware. Interesting that Apple
>
>>>>>>>> sells
>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> apps pretty cheap (dropped Shake from $2500 to $500; Logic from
$1000
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> $500, etc), but the OS (or the hardware, take your pick) is still
>
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> costly than any other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like Jamie says, use what you like, like what you use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/20/07 10:21 PM, in article 46f346d1$1@linux, "LaMont"
>>>>>>>> <jjdpro@funk.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are right Dedric..HP/Compaq are the leaders.
>>>>>>>>> However,the Apple interest at our Best buy is very high.I see folks,
>>>>> moms
>>>>>>>>> and pops, older couples, young all gathering around the display
>
>>>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> turn to ask questionsabout the Macs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it's very smart of Apple to already have Parallels loaded
>>> ,
>>>>> so
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> Win Xpusers feel right at home.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Both Best Buys here have Apple displays - a large black/white
Apple
>>>>>>>>>> backdrop
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> dwarfing a rather spartan table
>>>>>>>>>> of about 6-8 Macbooks and iMacs (same in both stores). So far
>it
>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> seem to be generating any interest the
>>>>>>>>>> several times I've been in the stores. No Mac Pros either.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The new iMacs look really nice though. I'm thinking of getting
>one
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> wife (24" preferrably).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fyi - HP is currently the leading PC manufacturer, not Dell.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:46f29bf8$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best Buy is already an authorized Mac reseller, although I don't
>>> know
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> many stores are involved at this point
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>( http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat128500050005& ;type=category)>>>>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Macs are already available in special Apple departments inside
>
>>>>>>>>>>> CompUSA
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> MicroCenter stores.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> iPods (but not Macs) are available at Target.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the flip side, Dell is looking at the successful Apple store
>>> strategy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and trying their own stores, sort of:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.news.com/Dell+to+try+branded+stores-sans+inventor y/2100-1047_
>>>>>>>>>>> 3-
>>>>>>>>>>> 60
>>>>>>>>>>> 75868.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>>>>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> TCB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody will make more fun of Wall Street analysts than me, and
>>> I
>>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> you up to a point. That said, it has been years since Apple
had
>>> a
>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> to push their products in retail outlets. Of course, someone
>like
>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> be buying stuff online at blowout prices, rolling my own and
>so
>>> on.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'Joe six pack' crowd (crucial to Apple since they actively
>>> thumb
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> noses at corporate/institutional buyers like me so won't be
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>>>> traction there) having their machines in a Best Buy or Wal-Mart
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>> would certainly shift some units. The Apple stores are nice,
>but
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> like there's one in every mall in America. But as you say, they
>>> want
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> protect
>>>>>>>>>>>> their cool factor and diluting the 'Mac experience' by mixing
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> plebes
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't enhance that and might detract from it. Think Debian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> TCB
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Chuck Duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In response to this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.247wallst.com/2007/09/apple-keeping-m.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Analysts are so short sighted it borders on the absurd.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's the production cost of an Armani suit? 50 bucks? Do
>you
>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Armani
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is going to get in bed with WalMart. No freaking way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As tech heads we continually are mystified about component
cost
>>>>> vs
>>>>>>> sale
>>>>>>>>>>>> price.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I can build such and such for 300 dollars, and apple wants
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't play that game. There are thousand dollar iPod holders
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> christ
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sakes. They realize the cool factor, and in a recent exchange
>>> between
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> titans Gates freely acknowledged that Jobs has it (cool), and
>>> he
>>>>> (bill)
>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dells margins are non-existent. Do the math, a 16% world market
>>>>> share
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2% margin or a 3% world market share at 20% margin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1000 boxes @ 500 per @ 2% = 10,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 200 boxes @ 1000 per @ 20% = 40,000 profit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90120 is a reply to message #90095] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 15:42 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46f40da8$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why don't you admit that the 400 MHz Mac you have is a POS because it
> can
>>> stand up to your 3GHz PCs. By the the way, who used the Mac in your
>>> house?
>>> Speaking of Macs, I thought you were the guy that had to have the latest
>>> greatest system on the planet, well right now it's a Mac. Don't worry,
>
>>> Microsoft
>>> will steal more stuff from Apple and get Vista working in a year or so.
>>> Then all you PC zealots can tell all us Mac users how great Vista is and
>>> how Mac OS sucks.
>>>
>>I used it when it was state of the art and it just sucked compared to PC's
>
>>so now I should go buy another one? Yeah.....I'm there dude!!!Like I said,
>
>>I've used Apple machines in the past and am familiar enough with the new
>
>>ones to know that they are nice, but overpiced for my needs .I don't "do
>
>>iPOD or iPhone. I'd probably get beat up by the "good ol' boys" around
>>here
>
>>if I pulled one of those frilly little pretty things out in the presence
> of
>>a bunch of "real men". I need stuff that's chunky looking, painted flat
>
>>black and emits guttural grunts when it rings.
>>
>>;O)
>>
>
> It's a whole new Mac world Dj, the past does not equal the present or the
> future.
I know. Like I said, I've played around on the new Macs quite a bit.
Are you going to be happy stuck with Windows XP in to the future,
> you know Vista isn't happening yet. At least Apple is moving in the right
> direction and Logic look great. If your happy where your at that's cool.
That's what I'm grousing about. vista is wayyyyy too Mac'esque for me.
>
> The fruit comments are old and lame. Apple stopped building iMacs with
> fruit
> colored names about 7 years ago. Apple also killed the rainbow Apple
> logo,
> because of the gay adoption of rainbow everything. Notice they went to a
> solid colored logo. So why don't you quit with the insults?
........so now you're saying that Macs were gay and now their straight? I
thought being gay was heriditary, not a "lifestyle choice". That's not a
very PC position to take. ;oD
>
> So real men don't use Apple products? That's ridiculous!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JixbzFjv_cU
I rest my case.
;o)
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90122 is a reply to message #90118] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 16:07 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
LoL!! I hear you Neil.. You are Absolutley right. Pro Tools, Sonar Logic works
pale in comparison to Neundo's/Cubase.
But, this the old Beta vs VHS story. The bigs (Apple & Microsoft aka AVID)
will dominate. Jsut my opinion.
Steingberge and Motu's will be around. But, their market share will dwindle.
Unless, Yamaha takes some bold steps and help Steinberg become to be all
end all product that we knwo it can and should be with the Synergys btw those
two companies.
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OI.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
corner,
>>Digi in the other.
>>
>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>
>
>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>priced appropriately all along.
>
>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>
>Neil
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90123 is a reply to message #90119] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 16:17 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Let's look at the future:
So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards the
small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
line..
Not exactly what most of us expected.
RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply the
bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME ??
OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
know.
Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW market,
or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with MC-5
??
It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
has been produced from this marriage.
Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst successes?
I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo knows
what they have cooking.
AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
> Look for cool things in the future!
>
>David.
>
>Neil wrote:
>
>> "LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>
>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
corner,
>>>Digi in the other.
>>>
>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>
>>
>>
>> How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>> that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>> in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>> works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>> beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>> priced appropriately all along.
>>
>> ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>> sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>> irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>> Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>
>> Neil
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90124 is a reply to message #90123] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 16:38 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In a nutshell:
No, Steinberg hasn't really come up with anything radically new
recently - I don't have C4, but from what guys here were
talking about, it's got a few new features, but minor ones.
I think the next BIG step has to be something sound-wise, quite
frankly... I think most of the current DAW's have all the
features most anyone could want, with the choices between them
being fairly narrow, especially with Logic priced the way it is
now. I think the choices are mostly "this or that DAW-ware has
one or two things extra that I need, while that one doesn't",
as opposed to what it used to be not all that long ago, which
was more like: "this has only about a third of what I need,
while that one has another/different third, but only these one
or two have nearly everything".
So, that's why I think the next big leap has to be in the
sonics department - I mean, how many more features could there
possibly be? A freakin' toaster-oven component? I know there's
a lot in SX I don't use or need - which means there's probably
even more than that that I don't even know about that I don't
use or need! lol
Neil
"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com> wrote:
>
>Let's look at the future:
>
>So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards the
>small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
>line..
>
>Not exactly what most of us expected.
>
>RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply
the
>bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME ??
>
>
>OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>know.
>
>Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW market,
>or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with MC-5
>??
>
>It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
>has been produced from this marriage.
>
>Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst successes?
>I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo knows
>what they have cooking.
>
>AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
>range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
>from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
>
>EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>
>>David.
>>
>>Neil wrote:
>>
>>> "LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>corner,
>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>
>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>> that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>> in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>> works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>> beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>> priced appropriately all along.
>>>
>>> ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>> sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>> irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>> Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>
>>> Neil
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90126 is a reply to message #90123] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 17:37 |
audioguy_editout_
Messages: 249
Registered: December 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey LaMont,
Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on
developing the line of Digital live sound mixers downward
from the PM1D to the smaller models. This is the stream
that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are
great things planned for real studio applications that are
already in the works... ;-) Keep your eye on this web site
as well for updates on the Studio Manager side of things:
http://www.studioconnections.org/
This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up.
If I was looking at a large format digital studio console
right now, I would hold off for a year... but our DM2K is
almost 2 years old (and working fabulously) ;-)
David.
LaMont wrote:
> Let's look at the future:
>
> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards the
> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
> line..
>
> Not exactly what most of us expected.
>
> RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply the
> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME ??
>
>
> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
> know.
>
> Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW market,
> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with MC-5
> ??
>
> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
> has been produced from this marriage.
>
> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst successes?
> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo knows
> what they have cooking.
>
> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
> from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
>
> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>
>>David.
>>
>>Neil wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>
> corner,
>
>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>
>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>
>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>
>>>Neil
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90127 is a reply to message #90126] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 17:42 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Watch Nuendo 4 as well. Things should start to get interesting now, esp. in
post, given the feature
list and reports I'm hearing. N4 should be debuting at AES. Wish I could
have gone this year...
Dedric
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:46f46580$1@linux...
> Hey LaMont,
>
> Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on developing the line
> of Digital live sound mixers downward from the PM1D to the smaller models.
> This is the stream that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
> smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are great things
> planned for real studio applications that are already in the works... ;-)
> Keep your eye on this web site as well for updates on the Studio Manager
> side of things:
>
> http://www.studioconnections.org/
>
> This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up. If I was
> looking at a large format digital studio console right now, I would hold
> off for a year... but our DM2K is almost 2 years old (and working
> fabulously) ;-)
>
> David.
>
>
>
> LaMont wrote:
>> Let's look at the future:
>>
>> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards the
>> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated
>> mixer
>> line..
>>
>> Not exactly what most of us expected. RME: How and what do you thing
>> Yamaha feels about another vendor supply the
>> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME ??
>>
>>
>> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>> know. Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client
>> DAW market,
>> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with
>> MC-5
>> ??
>>
>> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very
>> little
>> has been produced from this marriage.
>>
>> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
>> successes?
>> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
>> knows
>> what they have cooking.
>>
>> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
>> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual
>> instruments
>> from their A.I.R (Wizoo). EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>>Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>
>> corner,
>>
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90139 is a reply to message #90086] |
Fri, 21 September 2007 18:49 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46f3f73c$1@linux...
>
> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Funny... It's like the folks who claim Macs never break...
>>
>>Here's Don's law of gear breakage:
>>
>>All gear breaks, all companies make defective units. Let's call that
>>percentage X
>>
>>Therefore, if you have enough gear in a room, the chances of failure
>>approach 100% X varies by company and is unknown without buying
>>all the gear...
>>
>>or is this DJ's law?
>>
>>DC
>
> I must be damned lucky, in the last 13 years I haven't had any of my Macs
> fry. They all still work. I had a iBook hard drive damaged after it was
> dropped, that's it. How many MOBOs, power supplies, and memory have gone
> bad for Deej? What's that all cost in time and money? I'm not saying
> that
> Mac don't have problems. I'm not saying Macs are perfect, they just look
> that way sitting next to a windows box; )
>
>>
Actually, I haven't had a signle problem with my PC's in quite a while. I
did buy a couple of bad mobo's on EBay a while back, but they were dirt
cheap and I got my money back for one of them. the other was a couple of
months old. the price was around $100.00. How much is a Mac mobo? Can I buy
one for less than the cost of building a PC?
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90146 is a reply to message #90127] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 00:08 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
We shall see. However, Fredo moderator on the Nuendo.com forum stated that
there was not much difference btw C4 and N4. Please correct me if I'm wrong.And,
that features like better patchbay, routing, multi core processors handling
will not show up in the first versionof N4..
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>Watch Nuendo 4 as well. Things should start to get interesting now, esp.
in
>post, given the feature
>list and reports I'm hearing. N4 should be debuting at AES. Wish I could
>have gone this year...
>
>Dedric
>
>
>"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:46f46580$1@linux...
>> Hey LaMont,
>>
>> Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on developing the
line
>> of Digital live sound mixers downward from the PM1D to the smaller models.
>> This is the stream that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
>> smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are great things
>> planned for real studio applications that are already in the works...
;-)
>> Keep your eye on this web site as well for updates on the Studio Manager
>> side of things:
>>
>> http://www.studioconnections.org/
>>
>> This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up. If I was
>> looking at a large format digital studio console right now, I would hold
>> off for a year... but our DM2K is almost 2 years old (and working
>> fabulously) ;-)
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>
>> LaMont wrote:
>>> Let's look at the future:
>>>
>>> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards
the
>>> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated
>>> mixer
>>> line..
>>>
>>> Not exactly what most of us expected. RME: How and what do you thing
>>> Yamaha feels about another vendor supply the
>>> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME
??
>>>
>>>
>>> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>>> know. Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client
>>> DAW market,
>>> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with
>>> MC-5
>>> ??
>>>
>>> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very
>>> little
>>> has been produced from this marriage.
>>>
>>> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
>>> successes?
>>> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
>>> knows
>>> what they have cooking.
>>>
>>> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a
mid
>>> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual
>>> instruments
>>> from their A.I.R (Wizoo). EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>>>Look for cool things in the future!
>>>>
>>>>David.
>>>>
>>>>Neil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is
one
>>>
>>> corner,
>>>
>>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>>
>>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>>
>>>>>Neil
>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90147 is a reply to message #90126] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 00:13 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Hey Dave.. The DM2000is wonderful. However, it's not what the majority of
Cubase and Neundo users want. Not even the 02R-96.
Steingberg users are getting pretty restless and getting prety bored with
the Yamaha marriage.
To me Yammy's N seriers mixers are just okay. They are going afetr the bedrrom
market. This seems tobe the trend in the industry.
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Hey LaMont,
>
>Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on
>developing the line of Digital live sound mixers downward
>from the PM1D to the smaller models. This is the stream
>that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
>smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are
>great things planned for real studio applications that are
>already in the works... ;-) Keep your eye on this web site
>as well for updates on the Studio Manager side of things:
>
>http://www.studioconnections.org/
>
>This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up.
>If I was looking at a large format digital studio console
>right now, I would hold off for a year... but our DM2K is
>almost 2 years old (and working fabulously) ;-)
>
>David.
>
>
>
>LaMont wrote:
>> Let's look at the future:
>>
>> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards
the
>> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
>> line..
>>
>> Not exactly what most of us expected.
>>
>> RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply
the
>> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME
??
>>
>>
>> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>> know.
>>
>> Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW
market,
>> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with
MC-5
>> ??
>>
>> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
>> has been produced from this marriage.
>>
>> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
successes?
>> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
knows
>> what they have cooking.
>>
>> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
>> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
>> from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
>>
>> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>
>> corner,
>>
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90148 is a reply to message #90126] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 00:28 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Okay, I read the Studio connections stuff. This reminds me of Yamahas attempt
@ MLAN.
Very few companies jumped on board. Then, I read that Yammmy is offering
it's SDK on Studio Connections. This is a disaster waiting to happen.
I think they should forget about trying to get "everyone" on board WHY??
because Apple, Digi,Motu, Cakealk/Roland, will not adhere to another companies
atempt to bring forth a new standard.
What's wrong with Yamaha? Don't they have the where-with all to bring this
product to fruition? Like Digi, Neundo customers want their very own version
of D-Control and MC-5 not a science community project..
Not impressed at all.
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Hey LaMont,
>
>Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on
>developing the line of Digital live sound mixers downward
>from the PM1D to the smaller models. This is the stream
>that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
>smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are
>great things planned for real studio applications that are
>already in the works... ;-) Keep your eye on this web site
>as well for updates on the Studio Manager side of things:
>
>http://www.studioconnections.org/
>
>This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up.
>If I was looking at a large format digital studio console
>right now, I would hold off for a year... but our DM2K is
>almost 2 years old (and working fabulously) ;-)
>
>David.
>
>
>
>LaMont wrote:
>> Let's look at the future:
>>
>> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards
the
>> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
>> line..
>>
>> Not exactly what most of us expected.
>>
>> RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply
the
>> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME
??
>>
>>
>> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>> know.
>>
>> Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW
market,
>> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with
MC-5
>> ??
>>
>> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
>> has been produced from this marriage.
>>
>> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
successes?
>> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
knows
>> what they have cooking.
>>
>> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
>> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
>> from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
>>
>> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>
>> corner,
>>
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90150 is a reply to message #90064] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 00:24 |
Erling
Messages: 156
Registered: October 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I believe James now want to kiss you;-)
erlilo
On 21 Sep 2007 14:58:49 +1000, "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade than
>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>
>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to keep
>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it sure
>
>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>
>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>use a Mac for all my other work.
>
>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>
>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>
>DC
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90151 is a reply to message #90124] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 00:36 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Hey Neil, be careful about saying that Cubase/Nuendo sound could improve.
Some think it's perfectas is. You know the whole digtil audio testing and
null testing.
I can hear the diference using the same audio i/o unit fader nulled, 2 track
stereo btw Neundo and Pro Tools M-powerded. But, that's just me.
Pro Tools has a nice top end, where as Nuendo has a very nice round smooth
low mid with a very smooth top end..
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>In a nutshell:
>
>No, Steinberg hasn't really come up with anything radically new
>recently - I don't have C4, but from what guys here were
>talking about, it's got a few new features, but minor ones.
>I think the next BIG step has to be something sound-wise, quite
>frankly... I think most of the current DAW's have all the
>features most anyone could want, with the choices between them
>being fairly narrow, especially with Logic priced the way it is
>now. I think the choices are mostly "this or that DAW-ware has
>one or two things extra that I need, while that one doesn't",
>as opposed to what it used to be not all that long ago, which
>was more like: "this has only about a third of what I need,
>while that one has another/different third, but only these one
>or two have nearly everything".
>
>So, that's why I think the next big leap has to be in the
>sonics department - I mean, how many more features could there
>possibly be? A freakin' toaster-oven component? I know there's
>a lot in SX I don't use or need - which means there's probably
>even more than that that I don't even know about that I don't
>use or need! lol
>
>Neil
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com> wrote:
>>
>>Let's look at the future:
>>
>>So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards the
>>small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated mixer
>>line..
>>
>>Not exactly what most of us expected.
>>
>>RME: How and what do you thing Yamaha feels about another vendor supply
>the
>>bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME
??
>>
>>
>>OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>>know.
>>
>>Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client DAW
market,
>>or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with MC-5
>>??
>>
>>It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very little
>>has been produced from this marriage.
>>
>>Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
successes?
>>I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
knows
>>what they have cooking.
>>
>>AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a mid
>>range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual instruments
>>from their A.I.R (Wizoo).
>>
>>EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>> "LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>corner,
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>> that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>> in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>> works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>> beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>> priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>> ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>> sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>> irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>> Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90162 is a reply to message #90146] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 07:24 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Lamont - you should read a bit more of what has been said - though more
specific information has been posted or confirmed on the Nuendo post forum
(Martin Stahl posts there from time to time).
Also Nuendo 4.0 and Cubase 4.1 will be the same - so C4.1 will be released
not too long after Nuendo 4. That was explained on the main Nuendo forum.
Regards,
Dedric
On 9/22/07 1:08 AM, in article 46f4bf84$1@linux, "LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com>
wrote:
>
> We shall see. However, Fredo moderator on the Nuendo.com forum stated that
> there was not much difference btw C4 and N4. Please correct me if I'm
> wrong.And,
> that features like better patchbay, routing, multi core processors handling
> will not show up in the first versionof N4..
>
> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>> Watch Nuendo 4 as well. Things should start to get interesting now, esp.
> in
>> post, given the feature
>> list and reports I'm hearing. N4 should be debuting at AES. Wish I could
>
>> have gone this year...
>>
>> Dedric
>>
>>
>> "Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:46f46580$1@linux...
>>> Hey LaMont,
>>>
>>> Yanaha has been concentrating the bulk of thier R&D on developing the
> line
>>> of Digital live sound mixers downward from the PM1D to the smaller models.
>
>>> This is the stream that has produced the M7CL and the LS9, and there are
>
>>> smaller versions yet planned. I am quite sure there are great things
>
>>> planned for real studio applications that are already in the works...
> ;-)
>>> Keep your eye on this web site as well for updates on the Studio Manager
>
>>> side of things:
>>>
>>> http://www.studioconnections.org/
>>>
>>> This is where some of the joint venture stuff will show up. If I was
>>> looking at a large format digital studio console right now, I would hold
>
>>> off for a year... but our DM2K is almost 2 years old (and working
>>> fabulously) ;-)
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> LaMont wrote:
>>>> Let's look at the future:
>>>>
>>>> So far, that synergy btw Yamaha and Steinberg seems to heading twards
> the
>>>> small bedroom composer. With products like Yammys new N12 integrated
>
>>>> mixer
>>>> line..
>>>>
>>>> Not exactly what most of us expected. RME: How and what do you thing
>
>>>> Yamaha feels about another vendor supply the
>>>> bulk share of Cubase/Nuendo's I/O needs? Will they (Yammy)purchase RME
> ??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OR Will they (Yammy)go proprietary with their own I?O solutions?? I don't
>>>> know. Will Yammy stand pat and let Euphonix dominate the High-End client
>
>>>> DAW market,
>>>> or will they compete and produce a product the goes head to head with
>
>>>> MC-5
>>>> ??
>>>>
>>>> It's been almost 4 years since the purchase of Steingberg, and very
>>>> little
>>>> has been produced from this marriage.
>>>>
>>>> Do you or anyone thinks that Apple & Digidesign will rest on their pst
>
>>>> successes?
>>>> I think not.. The marriage of Apple and Apogee is very intriguing. WHo
>
>>>> knows
>>>> what they have cooking.
>>>>
>>>> AND, another big (Leak) opps rumor from Digi is, they will produce a
> mid
>>>> range-Priced DAW controller for PT as well as other cool Virtual
>>>> instruments
>>>> from their A.I.R (Wizoo). EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>
>>>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>>>
>>>>> David.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is
> one
>>>>
>>>> corner,
>>>>
>>>>>>> Digi in the other.
>>>>>>> Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>>> that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>>> in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>>> works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>>> beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>>> priced appropriately all along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>>> sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>>> irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>>> Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neil
>>>>
>
|
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| Re: More MacDonalds [message #90167 is a reply to message #90150] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 09:02 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You first!
(grin)
DC
erlilo <erling.lovik@lyse.net> wrote:
>
>I believe James now want to kiss you;-)
>
>erlilo
>
>On 21 Sep 2007 14:58:49 +1000, "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It's not that simple. The G5's are much easier to service and upgrade
than
>>a cheapo PC. (ever opened up a G5?)
>>In fact it is the quality of Macs that helped create the high-end PC
>>market. (You can, of course, spend a lot more than a Mac costs in that
>>world, but at least it is a fair comparison)
>>
>>And it's not just marketing. I have to do a hell of a lot more work to
keep
>>the Dell happy here than I do with any of the Macs. Ever notice that
>>Norton antivirus is, of course, a virus itself of a sort? At least it
sure
>>
>>slows things down like one. My experience with the Dell has shown
>>me that it is only about half as reliable as the Macs we use as well.
>>It's a constant battle to keep the thing free of viruses and spyware.
>>Oh and there are currently windows problems that System Works
>>cannot even fix, so I will be on the phone with Dell soon...
>>
>>As far as running Windows on a Mac, I will probably do it simply because
>>I would rather use the Mac, yet I must use AutoCad, EASE. Smaartlive,
>>and others which are PC only. So, I eliminate the purchase of a PC,
>>cheapo or otherwise, by running everything on a G5, and I still get to
>>use a Mac for all my other work.
>>
>>Is it as cheap? Nope. But neither are BMW's compared to KIA's,
>>
>>Now, I don't give a rat's patootie what anyone uses, only that they
>>make great music on it, and it seems that James has the Mac amen
>>corner tied down fairly well... But here's my .02
>>
>>DC
|
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90169 is a reply to message #90151] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 09:10 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com> wrote:
>
>Hey Neil, be careful about saying that Cubase/Nuendo sound could improve.
>Some think it's perfectas is. You know the whole digtil audio testing and
>null testing.
I like the sound I'm getting out of SX - having said that, I
still maintain that the sound you get with ANY DAW is largely
dependent on the convertors you're using... and from what I've
been able to determine, how well-clocked your system is also
makes a difference. Jitter, or lack thereof, contributes to the
sound, as well. IOW, the type of coloration your convertors
impart, combined with a jitter-free environment (which
preserves the sound) or a jitter-prone environment (which will
bastardize the character of the sound to some degree; said
bastardization being magnified with the more tracks you're
adding, and the higher the bitrate you're recording at).
Having said that, I stil think there's some room for
improvement in certain aspects of what a DAW does, like the mix
bus, and when it comes to certain DSP functions like EQ, for
example. In terms of the Mix bus (and I'm talking about ANY
Native app, here), that's hard for me to put my finger on
exactly - in the newer software, you CAN get great ITB mixes if
you're careful with gain-staging, but what if they could
improve it so that you could get the same results while being
carefree about that? It would make things more intuitive, I
think. Also, when I was doing those summing experiments, there
was indeed a difference... I personally didn't like the tradeoff
(what I gained going out, vs what I lost compared to if I'd
stay ITB), and workflow-wise, it wasn't advantageous, either,
but if there wasn't a difference that a lot of people felt WAS
advantageous, I don't think people would still be using
consoles or buying things like the Folcrom or Dangerous 2-buss.
IOW, to use an audiophile analogy, hype can sell SOME $300 a/c
cables, but not very many; so there must be something to it
that still needs some work.
Furthermore, I have YET to come across an EQ plugin that sounds
& reacts like a hardware EQ (console, outboard, whatever). It's
frankly to a point where I would almost say that I EQ only as a
last resort! lol The Paris EQ VST port that Matt did is
actually the closest, to my ears; but it's also not hi-rez
enough for everything - it seems to add a little bit of grit or
something that makes it sound great on certain things like
snare, but it's too much for a lot of things like if you've
already got a distorted guitar sound, it can cloud things up a
little bit. In the "good old days" of analog tape & a console,
you could boost a frequency by 2 or 3 db and the results would
be readily apparent, with most of these EQ plugins, 2-3 db
ain't gonna get you squat in terms of an audible difference...
it's almost as if they're TOO linear. I think no matter what,
our ears like some aspects of the smeary/phasey analog EQ,
otherwise, things like the UAD Nevemulation EQ plugins wouldn't
sell, either. If those are accurately (or even semi-accurately)
modeling ALL characteristics of the analog versions, then
they're imparting some of those qualitites, as well.
Finally - just LOOK at all the plugin manufacturers out there!
There's a bazillion of 'em! Most DAW's come with several
different choices of EQ, reverb, delay, dynamics, etc, and the
list goes on, so why do we need other plugins? The simple
answer is variety, the not-so-simple answer is: while this
aspect of signal processing is an important part of crafting a
mix, most of the "built-in" plugin's aren't all that great.
They're fairly generic, for the most part (at least what I've
come across), with perhaps the exception of the former
Bumfucktory ones that Digi is packaging with various versions of
PT.
So, to sum it up: There's still lots of room for improvement on
the sonic front in the core of DAW-land.
So here's a "what if" for ya: WHAT IF Swineberg (or Sonar, or
whomever) decided to create a COMPLETE mixing environment in
their DAW? I mean something like an environment wherein you
could pull up a complete visual & sonic emulation of let's say
a Neve 8000 series desk, or an SSL E-range 4000-series with the
black EQ's, or a Trident 80B? You're doing a hard rock mix, so
you pull up the Trident or an API desk for that tough, rockin'
sound; next you've got a jazz fusion-ish kinda group coming
in... you pull up the SSL, but you swap out the black EQ's for
the later G-series orange ones. Going for that "vintage
Nashville" sound? Try the Harrison or MCI environment.
Need a nice 480L plate, or an AMS slapback delay? Got it right
here.
See what I mean? I think a self-contained variable environment
like this would make a lot of sense and would provide a REAL
marketing edge for somebody. It would separate it from all the
$500 DAW's, wouldn't it? People would pay $900 to $1,500 for
something like this, now, wouldn't they?
I'm not even necessarily talking about licensing all the stuff
from these brands (which could be cost-prohibitive), I'm just
using these "classics" as an example for reference, I'm really
talking about having some more adventurous signal-processing
coding going on and having it at your fingertips from a user's
point of view. You could have a C&W environment, a Classical
environment, a NuMetal Environment, etc. Heck, they could even
package it into several different series if they wanted to make
it more cost-efficient... they could have a high-end version
with EVERYTHING, and they could have a few different series
that are genre-based: "Cubase Rock & Metal", "Cubase Jazz/
Classic", "Cubase Country & Acoustic", "Cubase Rap & Hip-Hop",
the sonic emulations & tools would vary based on the needs of
each genre. Since a lot of users tend to specialize in certain
areas, this would make a TON of sense!
How convenient would that be? You wouldn't have
to buy & register a bazillion different plugins (sure, you'd
probably still buy a few extra ones - that's the nature of the
beast: MORE is Better! :) ) and if your hard drive crashed, it
wouldn't take you five weeks to wait for reauthorizations from
everything - most of your stuff would be in one self-contained
application!
I don't think there's anything at this point to stop them from
doing this... I mean external DSP stuff like UAD or Duende is
still just 1's & 0's running through some chips... transistors
may impart a certain "sound" when an analog signal is running
through them, but when it's digital, it's just a set of
instructions imparted by the software, so whether it's done on
a UAD card or a Creamware card or in one of the cores on a
quad-core CPU what difference does it make?
So, these are the things I envision COULD happen... in other
words, someone somewhere will think "why not take our platform
from what is essentially still just a digital recording device
with a handful of peripheral functions, and take it to the next
level?"
Neil
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90170 is a reply to message #90165] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 09:03 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That is correct. Nuendo does, and will have more post oriented features.
Features that benefit both music and post are in both.
I shouldn't have said "the same" - N4.0 and C4.1 are the same release level
in common base code and feature set, but Nuendo is still differentiated by
post, networking, etc.
Dedric
On 9/22/07 9:37 AM, in article sbdaf39ce9n4d25eovae87hjleuaj5rktd@4ax.com,
"erlilo" <erling.lovik@lyse.net> wrote:
>
> My logic says it must be the audioside that will be the same, not when
> it comes to use with videoproductions.
>
> Erling
>
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:24:17 -0600, Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Also Nuendo 4.0 and Cubase 4.1 will be the same - so C4.1 will be released
>> not too long after Nuendo 4. That was explained on the main Nuendo forum.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90186 is a reply to message #90169] |
Sat, 22 September 2007 12:26 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Great post Neil. It's funny , I often have those same dreams about a "Morphing'
DAW that emulates great analog recording gear. All they way down to the tapemachines.
I think some manufacturer is thinking about the vision, however it seems
that they just want to shell out its and peices at a time.
I look for companies like Line6, Audio Ease, Waves,UAD to lead the charge
to continue to model analog consoles to then roll into a given DAW..
Hey, you nailed the genres to console config. Face it, we want it all..
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@funk.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hey Neil, be careful about saying that Cubase/Nuendo sound could improve.
>>Some think it's perfectas is. You know the whole digtil audio testing and
>>null testing.
>
>I like the sound I'm getting out of SX - having said that, I
>still maintain that the sound you get with ANY DAW is largely
>dependent on the convertors you're using... and from what I've
>been able to determine, how well-clocked your system is also
>makes a difference. Jitter, or lack thereof, contributes to the
>sound, as well. IOW, the type of coloration your convertors
>impart, combined with a jitter-free environment (which
>preserves the sound) or a jitter-prone environment (which will
>bastardize the character of the sound to some degree; said
>bastardization being magnified with the more tracks you're
>adding, and the higher the bitrate you're recording at).
>
>Having said that, I stil think there's some room for
>improvement in certain aspects of what a DAW does, like the mix
>bus, and when it comes to certain DSP functions like EQ, for
>example. In terms of the Mix bus (and I'm talking about ANY
>Native app, here), that's hard for me to put my finger on
>exactly - in the newer software, you CAN get great ITB mixes if
>you're careful with gain-staging, but what if they could
>improve it so that you could get the same results while being
>carefree about that? It would make things more intuitive, I
>think. Also, when I was doing those summing experiments, there
>was indeed a difference... I personally didn't like the tradeoff
>(what I gained going out, vs what I lost compared to if I'd
>stay ITB), and workflow-wise, it wasn't advantageous, either,
>but if there wasn't a difference that a lot of people felt WAS
>advantageous, I don't think people would still be using
>consoles or buying things like the Folcrom or Dangerous 2-buss.
>IOW, to use an audiophile analogy, hype can sell SOME $300 a/c
>cables, but not very many; so there must be something to it
>that still needs some work.
>
>Furthermore, I have YET to come across an EQ plugin that sounds
>& reacts like a hardware EQ (console, outboard, whatever). It's
>frankly to a point where I would almost say that I EQ only as a
>last resort! lol The Paris EQ VST port that Matt did is
>actually the closest, to my ears; but it's also not hi-rez
>enough for everything - it seems to add a little bit of grit or
>something that makes it sound great on certain things like
>snare, but it's too much for a lot of things like if you've
>already got a distorted guitar sound, it can cloud things up a
>little bit. In the "good old days" of analog tape & a console,
>you could boost a frequency by 2 or 3 db and the results would
>be readily apparent, with most of these EQ plugins, 2-3 db
>ain't gonna get you squat in terms of an audible difference...
>it's almost as if they're TOO linear. I think no matter what,
>our ears like some aspects of the smeary/phasey analog EQ,
>otherwise, things like the UAD Nevemulation EQ plugins wouldn't
>sell, either. If those are accurately (or even semi-accurately)
>modeling ALL characteristics of the analog versions, then
>they're imparting some of those qualitites, as well.
>
>Finally - just LOOK at all the plugin manufacturers out there!
>There's a bazillion of 'em! Most DAW's come with several
>different choices of EQ, reverb, delay, dynamics, etc, and the
>list goes on, so why do we need other plugins? The simple
>answer is variety, the not-so-simple answer is: while this
>aspect of signal processing is an important part of crafting a
>mix, most of the "built-in" plugin's aren't all that great.
>They're fairly generic, for the most part (at least what I've
>come across), with perhaps the exception of the former
>Bumfucktory ones that Digi is packaging with various versions of
>PT.
>
>So, to sum it up: There's still lots of room for improvement on
>the sonic front in the core of DAW-land.
>
>So here's a "what if" for ya: WHAT IF Swineberg (or Sonar, or
>whomever) decided to create a COMPLETE mixing environment in
>their DAW? I mean something like an environment wherein you
>could pull up a complete visual & sonic emulation of let's say
>a Neve 8000 series desk, or an SSL E-range 4000-series with the
>black EQ's, or a Trident 80B? You're doing a hard rock mix, so
>you pull up the Trident or an API desk for that tough, rockin'
>sound; next you've got a jazz fusion-ish kinda group coming
>in... you pull up the SSL, but you swap out the black EQ's for
>the later G-series orange ones. Going for that "vintage
>Nashville" sound? Try the Harrison or MCI environment.
>Need a nice 480L plate, or an AMS slapback delay? Got it right
>here.
>
>See what I mean? I think a self-contained variable environment
>like this would make a lot of sense and would provide a REAL
>marketing edge for somebody. It would separate it from all the
>$500 DAW's, wouldn't it? People would pay $900 to $1,500 for
>something like this, now, wouldn't they?
>
>I'm not even necessarily talking about licensing all the stuff
>from these brands (which could be cost-prohibitive), I'm just
>using these "classics" as an example for reference, I'm really
>talking about having some more adventurous signal-processing
>coding going on and having it at your fingertips from a user's
>point of view. You could have a C&W environment, a Classical
>environment, a NuMetal Environment, etc. Heck, they could even
>package it into several different series if they wanted to make
>it more cost-efficient... they could have a high-end version
>with EVERYTHING, and they could have a few different series
>that are genre-based: "Cubase Rock & Metal", "Cubase Jazz/
>Classic", "Cubase Country & Acoustic", "Cubase Rap & Hip-Hop",
>the sonic emulations & tools would vary based on the needs of
>each genre. Since a lot of users tend to specialize in certain
>areas, this would make a TON of sense!
>
>How convenient would that be? You wouldn't have
>to buy & register a bazillion different plugins (sure, you'd
>probably still buy a few extra ones - that's the nature of the
>beast: MORE is Better! :) ) and if your hard drive crashed, it
>wouldn't take you five weeks to wait for reauthorizations from
>everything - most of your stuff would be in one self-contained
>application!
>
>I don't think there's anything at this point to stop them from
>doing this... I mean external DSP stuff like UAD or Duende is
>still just 1's & 0's running through some chips... transistors
>may impart a certain "sound" when an analog signal is running
>through them, but when it's digital, it's just a set of
>instructions imparted by the software, so whether it's done on
>a UAD card or a Creamware card or in one of the cores on a
>quad-core CPU what difference does it make?
>
>So, these are the things I envision COULD happen... in other
>words, someone somewhere will think "why not take our platform
>from what is essentially still just a digital recording device
>with a handful of peripheral functions, and take it to the next
>level?"
>
>Neil
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90260 is a reply to message #90149] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 21:16 |
audioguy_editout_
Messages: 249
Registered: December 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Those companies aren't actually in the "music business". As
far as new recording products coming from Yamaha... I will
remind you of this conversation, sooner than you might expect.
David.
LaMont wrote:
> Correction: That would be Microsoft/Advid & Apple.
>
> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>
>>David.
>>
>>Neil wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>
> corner,
>
>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>
>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>
>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>
>>>Neil
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90268 is a reply to message #90260] |
Sun, 23 September 2007 23:58 |
laMont [1]
Messages: 33
Registered: September 2007
|
Member |
|
|
Ok Dave. Can't wait to see what's coming..
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Those companies aren't actually in the "music business". As
>far as new recording products coming from Yamaha... I will
>remind you of this conversation, sooner than you might expect.
>
>David.
>
>LaMont wrote:
>> Correction: That would be Microsoft/Advid & Apple.
>>
>> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>
>> corner,
>>
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>
>>
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| Re: More MacDonalds..War of the DAWS!!! [message #90280 is a reply to message #90260] |
Mon, 24 September 2007 08:04 |
Ed
Messages: 199
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I don't see ANY decent music recording DAWs coming to life anywhere... that
is affordable without a Sony bank account. I scratch my head and wonder
why... why can't they purchase a used Paris system and build one like it!
OMG!
All they build is little Firewire and USB crap anymore. I feel like I am
back in the Abby Road studios with the Beatles who were limited to 4 or 8
track recording while the rest of the world was enjoying many tracks.
"Dave(EK Sound)" <audioguy_editout_@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Those companies aren't actually in the "music business". As
>far as new recording products coming from Yamaha... I will
>remind you of this conversation, sooner than you might expect.
>
>David.
>
>LaMont wrote:
>> Correction: That would be Microsoft/Advid & Apple.
>>
>> EK Sound <askme@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>AND, Steinberg now has the deepest pockets in the industry... Yamaha.
>>> Look for cool things in the future!
>>>
>>>David.
>>>
>>>Neil wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"LaMont" jjdpro&funk.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Both Companies are armed and readdy for the DAW showdown. Apple is one
>>
>> corner,
>>
>>>>>Digi in the other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eveybody else including Steingberg are just a non-factor at this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How can you say Swineberg is a non-factor? Some of the features
>>>>that these other guys have been implementing have been standard
>>>>in Cube-endo for YEARS now! Their stuff just plain works &
>>>>works well, (well, once they work the bugs out of their "paid
>>>>beta" releases, like SX2 & now C4, apparently), and has been
>>>>priced appropriately all along.
>>>>
>>>>ROFL - other guys just now start playing catch-up and all of a
>>>>sudden the more-features-for-the-buck leader becomes
>>>>irrelevant? Izzat what you're saying? The Dodge Viper didn't put
>>>>Ferrari out of business, Lamont.
>>>>
>>>>Neil
>>
>>
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