Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Read THIS!!!
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101567 is a reply to message #101566] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 02:50   |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that would
be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to speak.
Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be happening
with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their shoulder
when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is helping,
if that's what's going on.
James
P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
to
>say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>along the way.
>
>- K
>
>On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Releas
>>> ed-.html
>>
>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>
>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101568 is a reply to message #101566] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 02:57 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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Awesome!!
I remember the passion SSC (RIP) and Edmund had for their "baby", and their
willingness to help us "newbies" get the
most out of Paris in the early days.
Hell, I actually emailed a ppj to Edmund that became corrupt
due to the rogue segment bug, DURING a session, and by the time we had
had lunch, he emailed it back to me fixed!
That bug was fixed in v1.51 (I think).
I was freaked out by that level of commitment and caring.
Whatever happened subsequently, with the Emu takeover, and Intelligent Devices
probably being squeezed as a result,
I can understand why Edmund/SSC bailed from the NG, given the
rude pressure for bug fixes and updates to a system that was
already eminently useable and great sounding.
OK, there are limitations as far as submix inserts, global sends etc,
(perhaps due to early hardware design philosophy flaws),
but it is what it is! And If Mike has had a little help from Edmund, that's
great! Edmund is a good guy.
(Yeah, I know! No one looks good with brown lips, but hey..)
Kim
Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
to
>say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>along the way.
>
>- K
>
>On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Releas
>>> ed-.html
>>
>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>
>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101569 is a reply to message #101567] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 03:06 |
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No, I only mentioned that in the sense that they've been in fairly regular
if infrequent contact for a long time. Don't get the wrong impression; Mike
built the drivers 100% himself, it wasn't even remotely a collaboration with
Edmund.
Edmund's been kind enough to answer Mike's infrequent and specific questions
about PARIS development over the years. I have no idea if Edmund answered
any questions about the drivers at all, but whether he did or not it would
surprise me if Edmund was completely unaware of Mike's work on them, and it
would surprise me more to hear that he or ID disapproved (I assume he/they
would have said so). I haven't got the impression Edmund or ID are opposed
to seeing enthusiasts in the community move the platform forward; I'd guess
it's more likely the opposite. But this victory lap is all Mike's.
- K
On 12/11/08 2:50 AM, in article 4940e259$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that would
> be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to speak.
> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be
> happening
> with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
> shoulder
> when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is helping,
> if that's what's going on.
>
> James
>
> P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>
> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>> I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
> to
>> say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>> along the way.
>>
>> - K
>>
>> On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Rele
>>>> as
>>>> ed-.html
>>>
>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>
>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>
>
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101571 is a reply to message #101567] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 04:58 |
Mike Audet
Messages: 294
Registered: December 2008
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Senior Member |
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Edmund was very helpful when I was trying to compile the Mac plugins. I wasn't
able to make it happen, but he provided resources that would be essential
to getting it done.
I have always felt that ID got a really, really bad deal when PARIS was canceled.
They invested heavily in the software expecting to be paid back over time
as more and more PARIS users bought in and later upgraded their software.
I think they basically worked for free for years and got next to nothing
in return.
Then, people around here started threatening to sue them for not doing more.
I might have walked away if I'd been in their situation , too.
I'm not quoting anything Edmund has said here. This is just my take on what
went on.
Mike
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that would
>be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to
speak.
> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be happening
>with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
shoulder
>when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is helping,
>if that's what's going on.
>
>James
>
>P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>
>Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
>to
>>say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>>along the way.
>>
>>- K
>>
>>On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Releas
>>>> ed-.html
>>>
>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>
>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101576 is a reply to message #101567] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 07:06 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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The PARIS Driver and effects subsystem was 100% Ensoniq code. I obtained this
code from Ensoniq (not ID) several years ago.
Chuck
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that would
>be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to
speak.
> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be happening
>with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
shoulder
>when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is helping,
>if that's what's going on.
>
>James
>
>P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>
>Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
>to
>>say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>>along the way.
>>
>>- K
>>
>>On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>><excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Releas
>>>> ed-.html
>>>
>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>
>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101579 is a reply to message #101576] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 09:22 |
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It goes without saying, but I'll say it again anyway - if it hadn't been for
your work, we wouldn't be here today. You carried this thing on your back
for years, and I hope it gives you a good feeling to see that work bearing
new fruit. It really did make - and is making - all the difference.
Any thoughts that we might tempt you back into the PARIS game some day? Now
some essential infrastructure has been nailed down solidly, there might well
be some interesting times yet to come.
- K
On 12/11/08 7:06 AM, in article 49411e4f$1@linux, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com>
wrote:
>
> The PARIS Driver and effects subsystem was 100% Ensoniq code. I obtained this
> code from Ensoniq (not ID) several years ago.
>
> Chuck
>
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that would
>> be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to
> speak.
>> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be
>> happening
>> with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
> shoulder
>> when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is
>> helping,
>> if that's what's going on.
>>
>> James
>>
>> P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>>
>> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>> I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the bag
>> to
>>> say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and advice
>>> along the way.
>>>
>>> - K
>>>
>>> On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Rel
>>>>> eas
>>>>> ed-.html
>>>>
>>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>>
>>
>
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101581 is a reply to message #101579] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 09:27 |
Robert
Messages: 127
Registered: May 2007
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Senior Member |
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Well said Kerry.
Rob_A
"Kerry Galloway" <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote in message
news:C5668C4C.C071%kg@kerrygalloway.com...
> It goes without saying, but I'll say it again anyway - if it hadn't been
> for
> your work, we wouldn't be here today. You carried this thing on your back
> for years, and I hope it gives you a good feeling to see that work bearing
> new fruit. It really did make - and is making - all the difference.
>
> Any thoughts that we might tempt you back into the PARIS game some day?
> Now
> some essential infrastructure has been nailed down solidly, there might
> well
> be some interesting times yet to come.
>
> - K
>
> On 12/11/08 7:06 AM, in article 49411e4f$1@linux, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> The PARIS Driver and effects subsystem was 100% Ensoniq code. I obtained
>> this
>> code from Ensoniq (not ID) several years ago.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that
>>> would
>>> be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so to
>> speak.
>>> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be
>>> happening
>>> with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
>> shoulder
>>> when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is
>>> helping,
>>> if that's what's going on.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>>>
>>> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>>> I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the
>>>> bag
>>> to
>>>> say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and
>>>> advice
>>>> along the way.
>>>>
>>>> - K
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Rel
>>>>>> eas
>>>>>> ed-.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101584 is a reply to message #101568] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 12:01 |
Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
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Senior Member |
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"Kim W." <no@way.com> wrote:
>
>Awesome!!
>I remember the passion SSC (RIP) and Edmund had for their "baby", and their
>willingness to help us "newbies" get the
>most out of Paris in the early days.
>Hell, I actually emailed a ppj to Edmund that became corrupt
>due to the rogue segment bug, DURING a session, and by the time we had
>had lunch, he emailed it back to me fixed!
>That bug was fixed in v1.51 (I think).
>I was freaked out by that level of commitment and caring.
>Whatever happened subsequently, with the Emu takeover, and Intelligent Devices
>probably being squeezed as a result,
>I can understand why Edmund/SSC bailed from the NG, given the
>rude pressure for bug fixes and updates to a system that was
>already eminently useable and great sounding.
>OK, there are limitations as far as submix inserts, global sends etc,
>(perhaps due to early hardware design philosophy flaws),
>but it is what it is! And If Mike has had a little help from Edmund, that's
>great! Edmund is a good guy.
>(Yeah, I know! No one looks good with brown lips, but hey..)
>
>Kim
>
When/if Paris ever gets a reliable and simple-to-use plugin delay compensation
that can be globally disabled for OD's like the one in Cubase and is effective
with DSP cards like UAD and SSL, I will be returning to the fold. Same thing
applies if Paris is ever released in a native format.
There have been some rumblings over on the UA forums about Universal Audio
developing a zero latency DAW platform that will have the UAD-2 as onboard
FX..........sound familiar?
I actually sort of think that after having wandered in the wilderness for
the last couple of years, that having a fully loaded 3 x card system with
3 x fully loaded MECS and a few of the higher quality native offerings like
the PSP Suite and the WAVES Diamond bundle would provide more than enough
options to sonically kick the collective arsses of any platform out there.
The limits that Paris imposes on sample rates, bussing and plugin delay compensation
were the deal killers for me. Sample rates ain't a huge deal. Bussing can
be worked around. PDC is a big issue, at least IMO.
I think it's extremely cool that this is being written up by HC. Congrats
everyone. Maybe.......just maybe.....it will light a spark.
;)
;)
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101588 is a reply to message #101579] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 18:00 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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Hi Kerry,
Look, I wasn't really looking for kudos or anything, but thank you :-). I
was just trying to correct an apparently growing misconception.
Edmund never gave us one line of the PARIS gui code. I'm fine with that.
It's his baby. If he wants to keep it locked up in a closet what are we going
to do about it, there's no code social services that I know of :-)
The paris sound, if there is a paris sound is a product of the ESP2code.
The mixer engine, the effects, it's all DSP code and it's all Ensoniq. It
wasn't modeled off of SSCs midas console, it was a labor of love of all the
dedicated ensoniq folks, who actually were musicians, understood gain structure
and good sound all the way from the converters through the dsp out the other
side to the converters. PARIS was 100% designed and manufactured in Malvern
PA for gods sakes :-)
If ID had (for example), given us the code to the patchbay, or to the effects
instantiation, we would have had a PARIS ASIO driver that could do anything
PARIS can do with 0 latency years ago. But they didn't, and they wouldn't,
and they won't, so I'm a tiny bit touchy about what Edmund is perceived as
getting credit for, even though in all my personal dealings with him I actually
liked him alot.
Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>It goes without saying, but I'll say it again anyway - if it hadn't been
for
>your work, we wouldn't be here today. You carried this thing on your back
>for years, and I hope it gives you a good feeling to see that work bearing
>new fruit. It really did make - and is making - all the difference.
>
>Any thoughts that we might tempt you back into the PARIS game some day?
Now
>some essential infrastructure has been nailed down solidly, there might
well
>be some interesting times yet to come.
>
>- K
>
>On 12/11/08 7:06 AM, in article 49411e4f$1@linux, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> The PARIS Driver and effects subsystem was 100% Ensoniq code. I obtained
this
>> code from Ensoniq (not ID) several years ago.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that
would
>>> be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so
to
>> speak.
>>> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be
>>> happening
>>> with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
>> shoulder
>>> when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is
>>> helping,
>>> if that's what's going on.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>>>
>>> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>>> I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the
bag
>>> to
>>>> say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and
advice
>>>> along the way.
>>>>
>>>> - K
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Rel
>>>>>> eas
>>>>>> ed-.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Read THIS!!! [message #101590 is a reply to message #101588] |
Fri, 12 December 2008 00:47 |
Erling
Messages: 156
Registered: October 2008
|
Senior Member |
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Without having any inside information at all in the old problems between
Creative-Emu-Ensoniq-ID, when
seeing the "new" Creative-owner on the hardware side, that got all their
succes from the consume marked, seeing that Emu is following up that consume
idea, it seems Creative had/have the right idea for making money when
thinking consume. So, for me it's understandable if the people at ID said
enough was enough and closed their software-door. But since they were in
near contact with us here, they also got all the shit from us. The real
sinner, in my eyes, was the new owner, Creative, that needed new technology
for their consume-politics and buyed two small pro firms with moneyproblems
to get it and then killed what they didn't need.
But for me it's all a dead history now, but still with rumours ducking up,
since Paris still is one of the best music-recording systems ever built.
But, as you're saying Chuck, a real Paris Asio driver, to get old Paris more
perfect, is still missing. The patchbay could be better too for many, but
for me, it have worked as it is.
When looking at the Sharc and Motorola processors, used by firms like
Creamware, UAD2 and TC, maybe there can be a more modern way to go for a
real new Paris system, if someone can use that idea???
....Just something to think about in these wishtimes before a new
Christmas...
Erling
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> skrev i melding news:4941b7bd$1@linux...
>
> Hi Kerry,
>
> Look, I wasn't really looking for kudos or anything, but thank you :-). I
> was just trying to correct an apparently growing misconception.
>
> Edmund never gave us one line of the PARIS gui code. I'm fine with that.
> It's his baby. If he wants to keep it locked up in a closet what are we
> going
> to do about it, there's no code social services that I know of :-)
>
> The paris sound, if there is a paris sound is a product of the ESP2code.
> The mixer engine, the effects, it's all DSP code and it's all Ensoniq. It
> wasn't modeled off of SSCs midas console, it was a labor of love of all
> the
> dedicated ensoniq folks, who actually were musicians, understood gain
> structure
> and good sound all the way from the converters through the dsp out the
> other
> side to the converters. PARIS was 100% designed and manufactured in
> Malvern
> PA for gods sakes :-)
>
> If ID had (for example), given us the code to the patchbay, or to the
> effects
> instantiation, we would have had a PARIS ASIO driver that could do
> anything
> PARIS can do with 0 latency years ago. But they didn't, and they
> wouldn't,
> and they won't, so I'm a tiny bit touchy about what Edmund is perceived as
> getting credit for, even though in all my personal dealings with him I
> actually
> liked him alot.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>It goes without saying, but I'll say it again anyway - if it hadn't been
> for
>>your work, we wouldn't be here today. You carried this thing on your back
>>for years, and I hope it gives you a good feeling to see that work bearing
>>new fruit. It really did make - and is making - all the difference.
>>
>>Any thoughts that we might tempt you back into the PARIS game some day?
> Now
>>some essential infrastructure has been nailed down solidly, there might
> well
>>be some interesting times yet to come.
>>
>>- K
>>
>>On 12/11/08 7:06 AM, in article 49411e4f$1@linux, "chuck duffy" <c@c.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The PARIS Driver and effects subsystem was 100% Ensoniq code. I obtained
> this
>>> code from Ensoniq (not ID) several years ago.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike, is this true, has Edmund been giving you a hand? I think that
> would
>>>> be note worthy, and Edmund should get credit where credit is due, so
> to
>>> speak.
>>>> Not to take anything from you Mike, we all know none of this would be
>>>> happening
>>>> with out your efforts. It's just that some people have a chip on their
>>> shoulder
>>>> when it comes to Edmund, and I think everybody should know that he is
>>>> helping,
>>>> if that's what's going on.
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Tell him some of us are dyeing for OSX drivers; )
>>>>
>>>> Kerry Galloway <kg@kerrygalloway.com> wrote:
>>>>> I would dare say ID knows. I hope it isn't letting the cat out of the
> bag
>>>> to
>>>>> say Edmund's been responsive to some of Mike's requests for help and
> advice
>>>>> along the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> - K
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/10/08 9:07 PM, in article 494091e4$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2008/Ensoniq-PARIS-Wind ows-Driver-Rel
>>>>>>> eas
>>>>>>> ed-.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Mike, the link to your site is wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what ID is going to do when they see this? Lol!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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