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| Re: China [message #97006 is a reply to message #97005] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 20:13   |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
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Erling,
Bill made some great points, but along with those ...
Beware of those who speculate that the arms race and the money behind it
is a vast jewish conspiracy.
Beware of those who postulate that the first banker to loan someone the money
for a bomb was a jew.
Be on guard against those who espouse that jew x or jewish race Y is responsible
for Z. In my experience people who raise these issues are morally bankrupt.
Chuck
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number
>who made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives
>or gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>
>Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war.
>It's been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king
>money to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the
>money they get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the
>hundred years war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They
>gained enormous influnce from that - so much so that they managed to
>keep the war going for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>
>Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and
>other leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But
>bear in mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the
>same bankers who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5
>presidents do at the bankers bidding.
>
>For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>
>erlilo wrote:
>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
both
>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
well
>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
they
>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years ago,
in
>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
try
>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you can
>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit about
>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times around
>> the world.
>>
>> Erling
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>> standing
>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>
>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>> nation
>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
sense
>>>>> in
>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>
>>
>>
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| Re: China [message #97011 is a reply to message #97006] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 00:03 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>Erling,
>
>Bill made some great points, but along with those ...
>
>Beware of those who speculate that the arms race and the money behind it
>is a vast jewish conspiracy.
>
>Beware of those who postulate that the first banker to loan someone the
money
>for a bomb was a jew.
>
>Be on guard against those who espouse that jew x or jewish race Y is responsible
>for Z. In my experience people who raise these issues are morally bankrupt.
>
>Chuck
It's funny how so many people can rewrite history to suit their agenda and
fit their lies. Do more reading and research, and eventually the truth will
come out.
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number
>>who made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives
>
>>or gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>>
>>Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war.
>>It's been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king
>
>>money to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the
>>money they get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the
>>hundred years war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They
>
>>gained enormous influnce from that - so much so that they managed to
>>keep the war going for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>>
>>Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>>generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and
>>other leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But
>>bear in mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the
>>same bankers who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5
>>presidents do at the bankers bidding.
>>
>>For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>>extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>>influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>>
>>erlilo wrote:
>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money
on
>both
>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
>well
>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>
>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
>they
>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years
ago,
>in
>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
>try
>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>
>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you
can
>
>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit
about
>
>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>
>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>
>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times
around
>
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> Erling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>> standing
>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>
>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or
a
>
>>>>> nation
>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>sense
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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| Re: China [message #97012 is a reply to message #97002] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 00:31 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
both
>parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really well
>under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after they
>really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years ago,
in
>the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
try
>to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you can
>follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit about
>historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times around
>the world.
>
>Erling
>
>
Erling, I hear ya, but more blame should go on those rich privileged French
families than on their American relatives. I'll leave this alone so I do
not offend anyone and start WWIII, and I hope others will do the same. I
don't think anybody here would really like That history lesson.
I'll just say that northern Europe wasn't doing to good against the Nazis,
until guys like my uncle James John McCloskey showed up, and you should never
forget it.
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>
>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>> standing
>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>
>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>nation
>>
>>>travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>
>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no sense
>>
>>>> in
>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>
>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>
>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: China [message #97013 is a reply to message #96991] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 01:50 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
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freezing rain, sleet and some snow here this morn.
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:26:43 -0600, Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com>
wrote:
>
>Heh. Great, more anthropogenic climate change, just what we need. Out of
>the frying pan into the freezer...
>
>Getcher hands off the thermostat!
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>rick wrote:
>> plus you forgot to mention the benefits of nuclear winter will be in
>> combatting global warming.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:53:00 -0600, "Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:47de3945$1@linux...
>>>> "Mr. Simplicity" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>> Don't misunderestimate us. We can still blow up the earth.
>>>> Given they have a larger economy and a much larger population, that would,
>>>> at least, hurt them more than you. ;oP
>>> Damn right! We'll teach those commies a lesson they'll never forget.
>>>
>>
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| Re: China [message #97016 is a reply to message #97005] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 02:08 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
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The second worldwar started, as far as I remember in 1938 here in Europe.
USA came into the war about 3 years later and it was just because Japan was
allied with Germany when they attacked Pearl Harbor. In those 3 years, most
of America was doing big business, selling whatever they could to the
fighting parts. The same thing was happening in the first worldwar and it
was first when a passengership filled up with American business people, that
was making big warcontracts in Europe, was attacked by a German submarine in
the Atlantic Ocean and sunk, America was involved. Most of these people had
friends in, or was involved in the American Parlamenty in one or another
way, so there was no way out from being involved in that war on the "right"
side.
So, what I'm saying with my words are, Americans are just humans in their
heads, like the rest of the world, with excactly the same good and bad sides
as the rest of the world, filling up their heads. Most of the difference and
problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a culture
thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over, the
bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the wars
following up, long before someone could write at all.
All humans need something to be proud of, as the telling stories in the old
bible, all humans need and must have something to hate or love, also in
these modern times as in the start of the bible. It have allways been the
victory in wars that have started the glory in stories, as said well in song
we all knows well, "The winner takes it all".
It's a really good idea to also get involved the real stories of how a war
is starting and not just remember the glorifying endings when a nation mean
they alone saved the world from the bad enemies. All American stories
started in Europe with all problems here some hundred years ago. It's just
the human nature trying to do something to survive, a paralell to the
problems of the Israel people in Egypt that get Moses to glorify their
history and find the land with milk and honey, as Europeans found out that
America had all the milk and honey they needed to survive.
I love America but I also love Europe and the rest of the world, where good
people allways trying to do a difference for the soul.
Thanks for listening.
Erling
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:47df2279$1@linux...
> Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number who
> made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives or
> gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>
> Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war. It's
> been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king money
> to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the money they
> get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the hundred years
> war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They gained enormous
> influnce from that - so much so that they managed to keep the war going
> for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>
> Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
> generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and other
> leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But bear in
> mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the same bankers
> who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5 presidents do at the
> bankers bidding.
>
> For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
> extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
> influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>
> erlilo wrote:
>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
>> both parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did
>> really well under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history
>> about how America was being involved in both the first and second
>> worldwar, years after they really started? I wrote about these historical
>> facts here some years ago, in the days when Iraq was being occupied, so
>> if you're interested, you can try to find the posts from those days, or
>> you can find it some other places, like the internet, that I know you
>> love to search after meanings you can follow. It's unbelieveable that
>> many Americans yet don't know a shit about historical facts and still
>> yelling about the glory they got around their heads after the two
>> worldwars and still love to have these glories today, after all the shit
>> some of their presidents have made in newer times around the world.
>>
>> Erling
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>> standing
>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>
>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>> nation
>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>>>>> sense
>>>>> in
>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>
>>
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| Re: China [message #97017 is a reply to message #97012] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 02:21 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
James, I don't blame anyone for anything. I'm just trying to tell that
Americans are just humans, with all the positive and negative sides, as the
rest of the world have.
By the way, do you know anything about the Norwegian story in the second
world war and do you know Norway is in North Europe? Maybe you should have a
talk with Bill L, he is an American that's knowing the Norwegian story very
well. If it wasn't for Norwegian seeman under the second worldwar, arghhhh
it's time to stop before I'm glorifying little Norway, that many Americans
don't know a shit about, over America in that war;-)
Erling
>>
>
> Erling, I hear ya, but more blame should go on those rich privileged
> French
> families than on their American relatives. I'll leave this alone so I do
> not offend anyone and start WWIII, and I hope others will do the same. I
> don't think anybody here would really like That history lesson.
>
> I'll just say that northern Europe wasn't doing to good against the Nazis,
> until guys like my uncle James John McCloskey showed up, and you should
> never
> forget it.
>
>>
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>> standing
>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>
>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>>nation
>>>
>>>>travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>>>>> sense
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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| Re: China [message #97018 is a reply to message #97002] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 05:37 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In fairness to my fellow Americans, what you say is true but it's damned difficult
to learn any US history in America. The tiny bit that is taught before college
is taught horribly, and is about the driest subject one ever takes. Which
is sad since US history is so full of robber barons and wildcatters and other
incredibly interesting people. But if a person wants to find out the good,
bad, and ugly of US history in America one pretty much has to go it alone.
TCB
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
both
>parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really well
>under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after they
>really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years ago,
in
>the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
try
>to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you can
>follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit about
>historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times around
>the world.
>
>Erling
>
>
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>
>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>> standing
>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>
>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>nation
>>
>>>travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>
>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no sense
>>
>>>> in
>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>
>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>
>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: China [message #97028 is a reply to message #97006] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 08:14 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The Jewish conspiracy thing was a justification created in Europe as far
back as the Crusades to avoid paying debts to Jews. It's a brilliant
plan, really:
1. Forbid Jews living anywhere but the ghetto, for convenience in
locating them
2. Forbid Jews doing anything but money lending, banking, gold/silver
smithing, etc.
3. When you owe too much money to a Jew, kill him.
4. If anyone complains about you killing him, say, "Everyone knows the
Jews have horns and eat Christian babies."
5. Walk away scott and debt free!
During the Crusades, it was common practice for a German army heading
off to Jerusalem to make a swing through the ghetto and erase all their
debts (kill their bankers) before the long march to reclaim the "Holy Land".
chuck duffy wrote:
> Erling,
>
> Bill made some great points, but along with those ...
>
> Beware of those who speculate that the arms race and the money behind it
> is a vast jewish conspiracy.
>
> Beware of those who postulate that the first banker to loan someone the money
> for a bomb was a jew.
>
> Be on guard against those who espouse that jew x or jewish race Y is responsible
> for Z. In my experience people who raise these issues are morally bankrupt.
>
> Chuck
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number
>> who made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives
>
>> or gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>>
>> Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war.
>> It's been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king
>
>> money to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the
>> money they get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the
>> hundred years war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They
>
>> gained enormous influnce from that - so much so that they managed to
>> keep the war going for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>>
>> Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>> generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and
>> other leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But
>> bear in mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the
>> same bankers who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5
>> presidents do at the bankers bidding.
>>
>> For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>> extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>> influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>>
>> erlilo wrote:
>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
> both
>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
> well
>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>
>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
> they
>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years ago,
> in
>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
> try
>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>
>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you can
>
>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit about
>
>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>
>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>
>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times around
>
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> Erling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>> standing
>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>
>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>
>>>>> nation
>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
> sense
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>
>
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| Re: China [message #97029 is a reply to message #97016] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 08:19 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
others. All people are basically good.
erlilo wrote:
> The second worldwar started, as far as I remember in 1938 here in Europe.
> USA came into the war about 3 years later and it was just because Japan was
> allied with Germany when they attacked Pearl Harbor. In those 3 years, most
> of America was doing big business, selling whatever they could to the
> fighting parts. The same thing was happening in the first worldwar and it
> was first when a passengership filled up with American business people, that
> was making big warcontracts in Europe, was attacked by a German submarine in
> the Atlantic Ocean and sunk, America was involved. Most of these people had
> friends in, or was involved in the American Parlamenty in one or another
> way, so there was no way out from being involved in that war on the "right"
> side.
>
> So, what I'm saying with my words are, Americans are just humans in their
> heads, like the rest of the world, with excactly the same good and bad sides
> as the rest of the world, filling up their heads. Most of the difference and
> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a culture
> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over, the
> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the wars
> following up, long before someone could write at all.
> All humans need something to be proud of, as the telling stories in the old
> bible, all humans need and must have something to hate or love, also in
> these modern times as in the start of the bible. It have allways been the
> victory in wars that have started the glory in stories, as said well in song
> we all knows well, "The winner takes it all".
> It's a really good idea to also get involved the real stories of how a war
> is starting and not just remember the glorifying endings when a nation mean
> they alone saved the world from the bad enemies. All American stories
> started in Europe with all problems here some hundred years ago. It's just
> the human nature trying to do something to survive, a paralell to the
> problems of the Israel people in Egypt that get Moses to glorify their
> history and find the land with milk and honey, as Europeans found out that
> America had all the milk and honey they needed to survive.
>
> I love America but I also love Europe and the rest of the world, where good
> people allways trying to do a difference for the soul.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Erling
>
>
>
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:47df2279$1@linux...
>> Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number who
>> made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives or
>> gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>>
>> Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war. It's
>> been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king money
>> to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the money they
>> get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the hundred years
>> war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They gained enormous
>> influnce from that - so much so that they managed to keep the war going
>> for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>>
>> Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>> generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and other
>> leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But bear in
>> mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the same bankers
>> who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5 presidents do at the
>> bankers bidding.
>>
>> For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>> extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>> influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>>
>> erlilo wrote:
>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
>>> both parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did
>>> really well under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history
>>> about how America was being involved in both the first and second
>>> worldwar, years after they really started? I wrote about these historical
>>> facts here some years ago, in the days when Iraq was being occupied, so
>>> if you're interested, you can try to find the posts from those days, or
>>> you can find it some other places, like the internet, that I know you
>>> love to search after meanings you can follow. It's unbelieveable that
>>> many Americans yet don't know a shit about historical facts and still
>>> yelling about the glory they got around their heads after the two
>>> worldwars and still love to have these glories today, after all the shit
>>> some of their presidents have made in newer times around the world.
>>>
>>> Erling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>> standing
>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>
>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>>> nation
>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97030 is a reply to message #97017] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 08:24 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Here's a stat: at the beginning of the war, Norway had the world's
largest merchant fleet. At the end they were far, far down the list,
having lost most of their ships and crews carrying US Lend Lease goods
to Europe. Norway and Greece probably put up the greatest resistance
against fascist invaders during WW2.
erlilo wrote:
> James, I don't blame anyone for anything. I'm just trying to tell that
> Americans are just humans, with all the positive and negative sides, as the
> rest of the world have.
>
> By the way, do you know anything about the Norwegian story in the second
> world war and do you know Norway is in North Europe? Maybe you should have a
> talk with Bill L, he is an American that's knowing the Norwegian story very
> well. If it wasn't for Norwegian seeman under the second worldwar, arghhhh
> it's time to stop before I'm glorifying little Norway, that many Americans
> don't know a shit about, over America in that war;-)
>
> Erling
>
>> Erling, I hear ya, but more blame should go on those rich privileged
>> French
>> families than on their American relatives. I'll leave this alone so I do
>> not offend anyone and start WWIII, and I hope others will do the same. I
>> don't think anybody here would really like That history lesson.
>>
>> I'll just say that northern Europe wasn't doing to good against the Nazis,
>> until guys like my uncle James John McCloskey showed up, and you should
>> never
>> forget it.
>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>> standing
>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>
>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>>> nation
>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97032 is a reply to message #97018] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 08:30 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I went to the same school as George Bush Sr, Greenwich Country Day
School, from pre-K to 9th grade, and I don't remember any American
history at all, actually. I suppose there must have been some, but it
was pretty dull, I guess.
It seemed like all we got was English history. New Englanders are rather
Anglophilic.
TCB wrote:
> In fairness to my fellow Americans, what you say is true but it's damned difficult
> to learn any US history in America. The tiny bit that is taught before college
> is taught horribly, and is about the driest subject one ever takes. Which
> is sad since US history is so full of robber barons and wildcatters and other
> incredibly interesting people. But if a person wants to find out the good,
> bad, and ugly of US history in America one pretty much has to go it alone.
>
>
> TCB
>
> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money on
> both
>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really well
>
>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>
>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after they
>
>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years ago,
> in
>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
> try
>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>
>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you can
>
>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit about
>
>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>
>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>
>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times around
>
>> the world.
>>
>> Erling
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>> standing
>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>
>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or a
>>>> nation
>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no sense
>>>>> in
>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97037 is a reply to message #97028] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 11:58 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>The Jewish conspiracy thing was a justification created in Europe as far
>back as the Crusades to avoid paying debts to Jews. It's a brilliant
>plan, really:
>
>1. Forbid Jews living anywhere but the ghetto, for convenience in
>locating them
>2. Forbid Jews doing anything but money lending, banking, gold/silver
>smithing, etc.
>3. When you owe too much money to a Jew, kill him.
>4. If anyone complains about you killing him, say, "Everyone knows the
>Jews have horns and eat Christian babies."
>5. Walk away scott and debt free!
>
>During the Crusades, it was common practice for a German army heading
>off to Jerusalem to make a swing through the ghetto and erase all their
>debts (kill their bankers) before the long march to reclaim the "Holy Land".
>
Incredibly ignorant, naive, and delusional, where did you buy this pile of
propaganda?
>chuck duffy wrote:
>> Erling,
>>
>> Bill made some great points, but along with those ...
>>
>> Beware of those who speculate that the arms race and the money behind
it
>> is a vast jewish conspiracy.
>>
>> Beware of those who postulate that the first banker to loan someone the
money
>> for a bomb was a jew.
>>
>> Be on guard against those who espouse that jew x or jewish race Y is responsible
>> for Z. In my experience people who raise these issues are morally bankrupt.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number
>>> who made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives
>>
>>> or gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>>>
>>> Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war.
>>> It's been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king
>>
>>> money to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the
>>> money they get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the
>>> hundred years war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They
>>
>>> gained enormous influnce from that - so much so that they managed to
>>> keep the war going for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>>>
>>> Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>>> generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and
>>> other leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But
>>> bear in mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the
>>> same bankers who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5
>>> presidents do at the bankers bidding.
>>>
>>> For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>>> extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>>> influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>>>
>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money
on
>> both
>>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
>> well
>>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>>
>>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
>> they
>>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years
ago,
>> in
>>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you
can
>> try
>>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>>
>>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you
can
>>
>>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit
about
>>
>>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>>
>>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>>
>>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times
around
>>
>>>> the world.
>>>>
>>>> Erling
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>>> standing
>>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>>
>>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or
a
>>
>>>>>> nation
>>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>> sense
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97045 is a reply to message #97029] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 18:08 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I just have one question for you both.
What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
telling"?
What would happen to Scientology?
If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
life.
DC
What would happen to faith as mere human
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>others. All people are basically good.
>erlilo wrote:
Most of the difference and
>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a culture
>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
the
>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the
wars
>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97046 is a reply to message #97045] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 17:12 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
One might ask the same question, and substitute the name Gilgamesh in place
of Jesus. What if it were proven that Gilgamesh indeed pre-existed Jesus and
the Bible and that those stories handed down were recycled tales of
Gilgamesh? How would that shake your own belief system (I'm not saying one
way or the other) and what would you do with it?
AA
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:47e05997$1@linux...
>
> I just have one question for you both.
>
> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>
> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
> telling"?
>
> What would happen to Scientology?
>
> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
> life.
>
> DC
>
>
>
>
> What would happen to faith as mere human
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>others. All people are basically good.
>
>
>>erlilo wrote:
> Most of the difference and
>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a
>>> culture
>
>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
> the
>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>
>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the
> wars
>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97052 is a reply to message #97037] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 20:11 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
They don't teach this in schools very much, so you might be excused for
not knowing about it, but here are some references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_persecution
excerpts from this article
During the Middle Ages in Europe there was full-scale persecution in
many places, with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and
massacres. A main justification of prejudice against Jews in Europe was
religious. Jews were frequently massacred and exiled from various
European countries. The persecution hit its first peak during the
Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the
Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed; see German Crusade, 1096.
In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were subject to frequent
massacres. The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds'
Crusades of 1251 and 1320. The Crusades were followed by expulsions,
including in, 1290, the banishing of all English Jews; in 1396, 100,000
Jews were expelled from France; and, in 1421 thousands were expelled
from Austria. Many of the expelled Jews fled to Poland.[2]
Tsarist Russia
For much of the 19th century, Imperial Russia, which included much of
Poland, contained the world's largest Jewish population. From Alexander
III's reign until the end of Tsarist rule in Russia, Jews were
restricted to the Jewish Pale of Settlement, and banned from many jobs
and locations. They were subject to racist laws, like the May Laws, and
were targeted in hundreds of violent anti-Jewish riots, called pogroms,
that had unofficial state support.
James McCloskey wrote:
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> The Jewish conspiracy thing was a justification created in Europe as far
>
>> back as the Crusades to avoid paying debts to Jews. It's a brilliant
>> plan, really:
>>
>> 1. Forbid Jews living anywhere but the ghetto, for convenience in
>> locating them
>> 2. Forbid Jews doing anything but money lending, banking, gold/silver
>> smithing, etc.
>> 3. When you owe too much money to a Jew, kill him.
>> 4. If anyone complains about you killing him, say, "Everyone knows the
>> Jews have horns and eat Christian babies."
>> 5. Walk away scott and debt free!
>>
>> During the Crusades, it was common practice for a German army heading
>> off to Jerusalem to make a swing through the ghetto and erase all their
>
>> debts (kill their bankers) before the long march to reclaim the "Holy Land".
>>
>
> Incredibly ignorant, naive, and delusional, where did you buy this pile of
> propaganda?
>
>> chuck duffy wrote:
>>> Erling,
>>>
>>> Bill made some great points, but along with those ...
>>>
>>> Beware of those who speculate that the arms race and the money behind
> it
>>> is a vast jewish conspiracy.
>>>
>>> Beware of those who postulate that the first banker to loan someone the
> money
>>> for a bomb was a jew.
>>>
>>> Be on guard against those who espouse that jew x or jewish race Y is responsible
>>> for Z. In my experience people who raise these issues are morally bankrupt.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>> Erling, When you talk about Americans, remember that the small number
>
>>>> who made money from WW2 are not the same ones who laid down their lives
>>>> or gave their time or sweat to save our European brothers and sisters.
>>>>
>>>> Bankers and arms manufacturers are the ones who really win in a war.
>
>>>> It's been that way since the very first banker loaned a war lord or king
>>>> money to finance a war, probably thousands of years ago. Part of the
>
>>>> money they get back and part they take out in influence. Remember the
>
>>>> hundred years war in Europe. That was a field day for the bankers. They
>>>> gained enormous influnce from that - so much so that they managed to
>
>>>> keep the war going for a HUNDRED years, loaning money to all sides.
>>>>
>>>> Please do not make the mistake of seeing all Americans as a great big
>
>>>> generality. Yes, we elect some really, really crappy presidents and
>>>> other leaders. My guess is it's about a 4:1 ratio of bad to good. But
>
>>>> bear in mind we are heavily influenced by the lying PR spread by the
>
>>>> same bankers who make money from the dumbass shit that 4 out of 5
>>>> presidents do at the bankers bidding.
>>>>
>>>> For those with an interest in this sort of thing there is a fine and
>
>>>> extremely enlightening book called "The Warlords" that details the
>>>> influence bankers have had for many centuries in fomenting man's wars.
>>>>
>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money
> on
>>> both
>>>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
>>> well
>>>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>>>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
>>> they
>>>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years
> ago,
>>> in
>>>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you
> can
>>> try
>>>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>>>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you
> can
>>>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit
> about
>>>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>>>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>>>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times
> around
>>>>> the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Erling
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or
> a
>>>>>>> nation
>>>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
>>> sense
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97053 is a reply to message #97045] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 20:16 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Whoah! Where did that come from? Did we say something about Jesus?
DC wrote:
> I just have one question for you both.
>
> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>
> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
> telling"?
>
> What would happen to Scientology?
>
> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
> life.
>
> DC
>
>
>
>
> What would happen to faith as mere human
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>> others. All people are basically good.
>
>
>> erlilo wrote:
> Most of the difference and
>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a culture
>
>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
> the
>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>
>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the
> wars
>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97055 is a reply to message #97046] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 23:58 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That would be significant.
The evidence is not of the same quality or quantity however.
DC
"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>One might ask the same question, and substitute the name Gilgamesh in place
>of Jesus. What if it were proven that Gilgamesh indeed pre-existed Jesus
and
>the Bible and that those stories handed down were recycled tales of
>Gilgamesh? How would that shake your own belief system (I'm not saying one
>way or the other) and what would you do with it?
>
>AA
>
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:47e05997$1@linux...
>>
>> I just have one question for you both.
>>
>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>
>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>> telling"?
>>
>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>
>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>> life.
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>others. All people are basically good.
>>
>>
>>>erlilo wrote:
>> Most of the difference and
>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a
>>>> culture
>>
>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>> the
>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>>
>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
the
>> wars
>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97057 is a reply to message #97045] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 01:25 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hmmm, I was not refering to Jesus at all, just refering to "the start" of
our own religion. For me, it seems you're just coming with questions that's
giving more questions about believings. You are referring to the Bible when
referring to Jesus, but don't forget, the bible have an old part too, that
have nothing to do with Jesus's way of living.
I can take a parallel to the New Testament, a modern Jesus, that died in
1948, Mahatma Gandhi and his life in India. Many parallels to the New
Testamente in a modern way, when the British ruled India before they
splitted it up in two new states in 1947. http://www.mkgandhi.org/
Pretty much the same philosophy and story, just happened in "modern" times,
where most of the stories about Gandhi can be confirmed as real; where the
bible, for me, are about real truth and believings that can't be confirmed,
just because these old stories just started from mouth to mouth, long before
something could be written down at all.
I'm a believer too but not for every price.
Erling
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e05997$1@linux...
>
> I just have one question for you both.
>
> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>
> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
> telling"?
>
> What would happen to Scientology?
>
> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
> life.
>
> DC
>
>
>
>
> What would happen to faith as mere human
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>others. All people are basically good.
>
>
>>erlilo wrote:
> Most of the difference and
>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a
>>> culture
>
>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
> the
>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>
>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the
> wars
>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97058 is a reply to message #97032] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 02:53 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Greenwich Country Day! How posh of you, Bill! A former and future ex-girlfriend
of mine is from a family that made a gazillion dollars selling off small
chunks of land in Greenwich. They bought a large farm in the 1850's and have
been living off of it ever since. Sometimes being lucky is as good or better
than being smart.
It takes real genius and effort to make American history boring, but American
schools somehow manage to do it.
TCB
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>I went to the same school as George Bush Sr, Greenwich Country Day
>School, from pre-K to 9th grade, and I don't remember any American
>history at all, actually. I suppose there must have been some, but it
>was pretty dull, I guess.
>
>It seemed like all we got was English history. New Englanders are rather
>Anglophilic.
>
>TCB wrote:
>> In fairness to my fellow Americans, what you say is true but it's damned
difficult
>> to learn any US history in America. The tiny bit that is taught before
college
>> is taught horribly, and is about the driest subject one ever takes. Which
>> is sad since US history is so full of robber barons and wildcatters and
other
>> incredibly interesting people. But if a person wants to find out the good,
>> bad, and ugly of US history in America one pretty much has to go it alone.
>>
>>
>> TCB
>>
>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money
on
>> both
>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
well
>>
>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>>
>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
they
>>
>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years
ago,
>> in
>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
>> try
>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>>
>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you
can
>>
>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit
about
>>
>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>>
>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>>
>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times
around
>>
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> Erling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>> standing
>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>
>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or
a
>>>>> nation
>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
sense
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97068 is a reply to message #97058] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 06:04 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeah, I went to school with Rockefellers and Warburgs. Funny, when
you're a kid money doesn't mean anything to you. Lucy Rockefeller was
just a shy fat girl and Phil Warburg (the only Jew in the school) was a
brainy nerd who sucked at sports. He probably runs the New York Federal
Reserve Bank today. I should have made better friends with him - who knew?
Where was your former/future ex-girlfriend's farm? What street? I lived
kind of in the country, between Greenwich and Bedford, NY.
TCB wrote:
> Greenwich Country Day! How posh of you, Bill! A former and future ex-girlfriend
> of mine is from a family that made a gazillion dollars selling off small
> chunks of land in Greenwich. They bought a large farm in the 1850's and have
> been living off of it ever since. Sometimes being lucky is as good or better
> than being smart.
>
> It takes real genius and effort to make American history boring, but American
> schools somehow manage to do it.
>
> TCB
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> I went to the same school as George Bush Sr, Greenwich Country Day
>> School, from pre-K to 9th grade, and I don't remember any American
>> history at all, actually. I suppose there must have been some, but it
>> was pretty dull, I guess.
>>
>> It seemed like all we got was English history. New Englanders are rather
>
>> Anglophilic.
>>
>> TCB wrote:
>>> In fairness to my fellow Americans, what you say is true but it's damned
> difficult
>>> to learn any US history in America. The tiny bit that is taught before
> college
>>> is taught horribly, and is about the driest subject one ever takes. Which
>>> is sad since US history is so full of robber barons and wildcatters and
> other
>>> incredibly interesting people. But if a person wants to find out the good,
>>> bad, and ugly of US history in America one pretty much has to go it alone.
>>>
>>>
>>> TCB
>>>
>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>> James, if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour, Americans had only made money
> on
>>> both
>>>> parts in the last worldwar, like president Bush's granddad did really
> well
>>>> under that war. Isn't it time to learn some real history about how America
>>>> was being involved in both the first and second worldwar, years after
> they
>>>> really started? I wrote about these historical facts here some years
> ago,
>>> in
>>>> the days when Iraq was being occupied, so if you're interested, you can
>>> try
>>>> to find the posts from those days, or you can find it some other places,
>>>> like the internet, that I know you love to search after meanings you
> can
>>>> follow. It's unbelieveable that many Americans yet don't know a shit
> about
>>>> historical facts and still yelling about the glory they got around their
>>>> heads after the two worldwars and still love to have these glories today,
>>>> after all the shit some of their presidents have made in newer times
> around
>>>> the world.
>>>>
>>>> Erling
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>> news:47de8d9b$1@linux...
>>>>> Hey erlilo, if it wasn't for Americans coming across the ocean and
>>>>> standing
>>>>> up to tyranny you'd be speaking Deutsche right now.
>>>>>
>>>>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>>>> Is there any difference when a neighbour nation occupying Tibet or
> a
>>>>>> nation
>>>>>> travel over the whole Pasific Ocean, occupying Iraq?
>>>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>>>> news:47dd6e18@linux...
>>>>>>> I think it's time to boycott China and their products, there is no
> sense
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> supporting this government in any way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VELU0G0.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080316/D8VEM3KG0.html
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97069 is a reply to message #97045] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 06:17 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do
with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
formula for building a bridge.
Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
true for you."
DC wrote:
> I just have one question for you both.
>
> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>
> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
> telling"?
>
> What would happen to Scientology?
>
> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
> life.
>
> DC
>
>
>
>
> What would happen to faith as mere human
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>> others. All people are basically good.
>
>
>> erlilo wrote:
> Most of the difference and
>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a culture
>
>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
> the
>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>
>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all the
> wars
>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97076 is a reply to message #97069] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 08:51 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
"myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
Jesus is compelling.
DC
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do
>with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
>daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>formula for building a bridge.
>
>Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>true for you."
>
>DC wrote:
>> I just have one question for you both.
>>
>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>
>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>> telling"?
>>
>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>
>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>> life.
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>
>>
>>> erlilo wrote:
>> Most of the difference and
>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a
culture
>>
>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>> the
>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>>
>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
the
>> wars
>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97086 is a reply to message #97076] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 08:34 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
and keep your own counsel.
DC wrote:
> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
> Jesus is compelling.
>
>
>
> DC
>
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do
>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
>
>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>> formula for building a bridge.
>>
>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>> true for you."
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>
>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>
>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>> telling"?
>>>
>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>
>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>> life.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>
>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>
>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have a
> culture
>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>>> the
>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the Middle
>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
> the
>>> wars
>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97102 is a reply to message #97086] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 15:30 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
No.
>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>and keep your own counsel.
Some things may be simply real.
best,
DC
>
>DC wrote:
>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>> Jesus is compelling.
>>
>>
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to do
>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
>>
>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>
>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>>> true for you."
>>>
>>> DC wrote:
>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>
>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>
>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>> telling"?
>>>>
>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>
>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>> life.
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>
>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>
>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
a
>> culture
>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>>>> the
>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
Middle
>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
>> the
>>>> wars
>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97103 is a reply to message #97102] |
Wed, 19 March 2008 16:24 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sorry, I misread your question.
Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
this position is against everything he stood and died for.
We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
DC
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>
>No.
>
>
>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>
>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>
>>and keep your own counsel.
>
>
>Some things may be simply real.
>
>best,
>
>DC
>
>>
>>DC wrote:
>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
do
>
>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
>>>
>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>
>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>
>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>
>>>> true for you."
>>>>
>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>
>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>> life.
>>>>>
>>>>> DC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>
>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>
>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>a
>>> culture
>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>Middle
>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
>>> the
>>>>> wars
>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97120 is a reply to message #97103] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 01:39 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
....and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the familyculture
a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live and
go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of sins
in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps to
destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the words
for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the hands
of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in peace
or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For me,
the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways to
live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years before
someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being written
down.
I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
Thanks for listening.
Erling
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>
> Sorry, I misread your question.
>
> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>
> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>
> DC
>
>
> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>
>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>
>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>
>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>
>>
>>Some things may be simply real.
>>
>>best,
>>
>>DC
>>
>>>
>>>DC wrote:
>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
> do
>>
>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>> experienced
>>>>
>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>>
>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>>
>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>
>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>
>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>>a
>>>> culture
>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it
>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>>Middle
>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
>>>> the
>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97123 is a reply to message #97120] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 03:26 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
It always amazes me how so many people do not under stand Christianity. A
child is not told it is doomed, just the opposite. The child is told that
if the child is baptized and believes in Jesus Christ, the child is saved!
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the familyculture
>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live and
>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of sins
>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
to
>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the words
>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the hands
>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>
>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in peace
>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For me,
>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways to
>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years before
>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being written
>down.
>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>
>Thanks for listening.
>
>Erling
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>
>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>
>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>
>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>
>>>No.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>>
>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>
>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>
>>>
>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>
>>>best,
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>>>
>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> DC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
>> do
>>>
>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>
>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
the
>>>
>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
is
>>>
>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>
>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>>>a
>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it
>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
all
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97125 is a reply to message #97123] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 04:39 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
James, did you read DC's post that I answered and do I wrote English so
badly that you couldn't see or understand what I wrote about the child? I
know very well Christianity after living with my family in the American
Church, "The Apostolic Faith" in Stavanger, Norway, as far as I remember in
my youth. I know excactly well how it is to be confirmed with sins and "the
right way of living" from my whole youth in late '40 and the '50. To be
curious on the society in the town and the pulsing life outside The
Apostolic Church, I was told nearly all the times in my youth that the
people there lived in sin, so I should stay far away from them.
Unbelieveable nice people in the Church, that did know what the bible said
but didn't know anything about the society around them, because the society
was just living in sin and was doomed in their eyes. Not any harm at all
with these people, just that they had isolated themself from the society in
those old biblereadings, in the name of Christ.
So please James, don't tell me that I don't understand Christianity way of
living, if it is that you're trying to say with your lines here.
Thanks for listening and give it a try to understand what I really wrote.
Erling
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:47e22dbe$1@linux...
>
> It always amazes me how so many people do not under stand Christianity. A
> child is not told it is doomed, just the opposite. The child is told that
> if the child is baptized and believes in Jesus Christ, the child is saved!
>
> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the
>>familyculture
>
>>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live and
>
>>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of
>>sins
>
>>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
> to
>>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the
>>words
>
>>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the
>>hands
>
>>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>>
>>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in
>>peace
>
>>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For me,
>
>>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways to
>
>>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>
>>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years
>>before
>
>>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>
>>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being
>>written
>
>>down.
>>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>>
>>Thanks for listening.
>>
>>Erling
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>
>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>
>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>>
>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>>
>>>>No.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>>>
>>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>>
>>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>>
>>>>best,
>>>>
>>>>DC
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
>>> do
>>>>
>>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
> is
>>>>
>>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much
>>>>>>>> spot-on?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and
>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>>>>a
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it
>
>>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
> all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97129 is a reply to message #97103] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 07:03 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
goodness of man.
DC wrote:
> Sorry, I misread your question.
>
> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>
> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>
> DC
>
>
> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>> Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>> No.
>>
>>
>>> I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>> is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>> and keep your own counsel.
>>
>> Some things may be simply real.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> DC
>>
>>> DC wrote:
>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
> do
>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are experienced
>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g. the
>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what is
>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>
>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>> a
>>>> culture
>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it over,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>> Middle
>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and all
>>>> the
>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97130 is a reply to message #97129] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 08:15 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'll only post this in response to your two posts since this topic is not
only off topic, but also unpopular:
Actually the Bible says Romans 3:22-24 "22 This righteousness from God comes
through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified
freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Some use "turn or burn" tactics, but I don't agree with that approach. At
the same time, the "do whatever feels right to you" mentality is also
fatally flawed. Between those two is where Jesus taught - we aren't
perfect, and will never be on our own (anyone that disagrees, please attempt
to go a whole day without making a mistake of any kind, whether in action,
how you talk to someone else, or how you think ;-). Only through God's
grace and by his love can be be perfected in Him - not perfect humans, but
loved perfectly (i.e. beyond what we practice and understand in human love)
The point of the above passage, and the idea that we have all sinned is that
we can't receive God's grace and forgiveness, and become "righteous" in His
sight by our own power, deeds or merit. It isn't a scare tactic even though
it has been used that way.
We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
raised from the dead to reunite with His Father - this became the symbol of
what "being saved" is all about - allowing old ways to die, and a new life
to begin, not just living a good life. This is how the concept of being
sinners really becomes a beautiful thing - we aren't doomed to pay for our
mistakes forever. There is hope. We also can't keep making the same
mistakes without consequences, whether earthly or heavenly (the former is
common sense - keep hitting your thumb with a hammer, eventually you'll
break it ;-).
In practice the change is real, and the heart does take on a new perspective
on our own lives, responsibilities, people around us, etc. We don't stop
making mistakes (but that's what forgiveness is for - not excuses, but
second chances), and we don't become perfect humans, but now we have hope
beyond what the world has to offer.
Happy Easter all,
Dedric
On 3/20/08 8:03 AM, in article 47e27184@linux, "Bill L"
<bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
> Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
> Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
> control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
> the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
>
> I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
> goodness of man.
>
>
> DC wrote:
>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>
>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>
>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>
>> DC
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97133 is a reply to message #97130] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 09:07 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I certainly must agree that we're all pretty messed up. But I have found
that even the worst of us are basically good. When we err it is because
of computing with erroneous data (read "Dianetics' The Modern
Science of Mental Health" if you want to understand how the mind works).
When you look for and increase the goodness of a person, you can help
them improve. From that starting point can man be bettered.
The way to improve conditions is to put attention on increasing the
goodness, the health, the production, the self determinism of the
individual. If you start by looking for problems you will certainly have
no trouble finding them and in the end you will increase them and their
power. This is one of the problems with our health system and especially
mental health system: they concentrate on disease, not health and wellness.
Look, I don't want to argue religion. I respect everyone's right to
believe what is real to them, but certain things I have observed I like
to share because I want to help.
Dedric Terry wrote:
> I'll only post this in response to your two posts since this topic is not
> only off topic, but also unpopular:
>
> Actually the Bible says Romans 3:22-24 "22 This righteousness from God comes
> through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23
> for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified
> freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
>
> Some use "turn or burn" tactics, but I don't agree with that approach. At
> the same time, the "do whatever feels right to you" mentality is also
> fatally flawed. Between those two is where Jesus taught - we aren't
> perfect, and will never be on our own (anyone that disagrees, please attempt
> to go a whole day without making a mistake of any kind, whether in action,
> how you talk to someone else, or how you think ;-). Only through God's
> grace and by his love can be be perfected in Him - not perfect humans, but
> loved perfectly (i.e. beyond what we practice and understand in human love)
>
> The point of the above passage, and the idea that we have all sinned is that
> we can't receive God's grace and forgiveness, and become "righteous" in His
> sight by our own power, deeds or merit. It isn't a scare tactic even though
> it has been used that way.
>
> We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
> the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
> raised from the dead to reunite with His Father - this became the symbol of
> what "being saved" is all about - allowing old ways to die, and a new life
> to begin, not just living a good life. This is how the concept of being
> sinners really becomes a beautiful thing - we aren't doomed to pay for our
> mistakes forever. There is hope. We also can't keep making the same
> mistakes without consequences, whether earthly or heavenly (the former is
> common sense - keep hitting your thumb with a hammer, eventually you'll
> break it ;-).
>
> In practice the change is real, and the heart does take on a new perspective
> on our own lives, responsibilities, people around us, etc. We don't stop
> making mistakes (but that's what forgiveness is for - not excuses, but
> second chances), and we don't become perfect humans, but now we have hope
> beyond what the world has to offer.
>
> Happy Easter all,
> Dedric
>
>
> On 3/20/08 8:03 AM, in article 47e27184@linux, "Bill L"
> <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
>> Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
>> control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
>> the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
>>
>> I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
>> goodness of man.
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>
>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>
>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>
>>> DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97134 is a reply to message #97120] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 11:21 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ok, this is your version of the "human myth making" story.
What if Jesus was not a myth?
What if the only version that is a myth is the one we make up?
DC
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the familyculture
>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live and
>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of sins
>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
to
>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the words
>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the hands
>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>
>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in peace
>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For me,
>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways to
>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years before
>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being written
>down.
>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>
>Thanks for listening.
>
>Erling
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>
>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>
>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>
>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>
>>>No.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>>
>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>
>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>
>>>
>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>
>>>best,
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>>>
>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> DC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
>> do
>>>
>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>
>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
the
>>>
>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
is
>>>
>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much spot-on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and help
>>>
>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>>>a
>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it
>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
all
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97137 is a reply to message #97130] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 12:16 |
Stevehwan
Messages: 207
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yup. That's the way I see it. Well put my friend.
Steve
"We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
raised from the dead to reunite with His Father"
Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>I'll only post this in response to your two posts since this topic is not
>only off topic, but also unpopular:
>
>Actually the Bible says Romans 3:22-24 "22 This righteousness from God comes
>through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23
>for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified
>freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
>
>Some use "turn or burn" tactics, but I don't agree with that approach.
At
>the same time, the "do whatever feels right to you" mentality is also
>fatally flawed. Between those two is where Jesus taught - we aren't
>perfect, and will never be on our own (anyone that disagrees, please attempt
>to go a whole day without making a mistake of any kind, whether in action,
>how you talk to someone else, or how you think ;-). Only through God's
>grace and by his love can be be perfected in Him - not perfect humans, but
>loved perfectly (i.e. beyond what we practice and understand in human love)
>
>The point of the above passage, and the idea that we have all sinned is
that
>we can't receive God's grace and forgiveness, and become "righteous" in
His
>sight by our own power, deeds or merit. It isn't a scare tactic even though
>it has been used that way.
>
>We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
>the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
>raised from the dead to reunite with His Father - this became the symbol
of
>what "being saved" is all about - allowing old ways to die, and a new life
>to begin, not just living a good life. This is how the concept of being
>sinners really becomes a beautiful thing - we aren't doomed to pay for our
>mistakes forever. There is hope. We also can't keep making the same
>mistakes without consequences, whether earthly or heavenly (the former is
>common sense - keep hitting your thumb with a hammer, eventually you'll
>break it ;-).
>
>In practice the change is real, and the heart does take on a new perspective
>on our own lives, responsibilities, people around us, etc. We don't stop
>making mistakes (but that's what forgiveness is for - not excuses, but
>second chances), and we don't become perfect humans, but now we have hope
>beyond what the world has to offer.
>
>Happy Easter all,
>Dedric
>
>
>On 3/20/08 8:03 AM, in article 47e27184@linux, "Bill L"
><bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
>> Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
>> control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
>> the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
>>
>> I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
>> goodness of man.
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>
>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>
>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>
>>> DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97138 is a reply to message #97134] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 11:15 |
erlilo
Messages: 405
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
.....Don, there will allways be questions if we don't understand things, and
that's reall good...
This is the end for me in this discussion that went far away from its
origin, where I was the second in this thread, asking questions about the
difference between China's invasion in Tibet or USA's invasion in Iraq, when
James asked to boycott China after their behavings in Tibet in the last. I
think there must have been problems to get any answers on this since I
couldn't see any;-)
Erling
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e29d1f$1@linux...
>
> Ok, this is your version of the "human myth making" story.
>
> What if Jesus was not a myth?
>
> What if the only version that is a myth is the one we make up?
>
> DC
>
>
> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the
>>familyculture
>
>>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live and
>
>>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of
>>sins
>
>>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
> to
>>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the
>>words
>
>>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the
>>hands
>
>>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>>
>>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in
>>peace
>
>>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For me,
>
>>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways to
>
>>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>
>>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years
>>before
>
>>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>
>>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being
>>written
>
>>down.
>>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>>
>>Thanks for listening.
>>
>>Erling
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>
>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>
>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>>
>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>>
>>>>No.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think that
>>>>
>>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>>
>>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>>
>>>>best,
>>>>
>>>>DC
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing to
>>> do
>>>>
>>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and he
>>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
> is
>>>>
>>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much
>>>>>>>> spot-on?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If so,
>>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and
>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most have
>>>>a
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think it
>
>>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from the
>>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
> all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97141 is a reply to message #97138] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 12:46 |
DC
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Erling,
You have expressed, and on quite a few occasions, the
"human myth-making" view of faith, and Christianity in
particular, and blamed "religion" for much evil, even
including damaging the minds/psyches of the young with
these "stories".
Saying these things, is not simply an opinion, it is an assertion
of fact: of how things really are.
Saying "whatever works for you" is merely assenting to this view,
because if there is a concrete reality to the life of Christ,
if he really did what he is said to have done, then the "myth
making" perspective is simply wrong, and what we think
means much less than what he thinks.
So, there is a level more fundamental than our opinions, and
it is the answer to whether Jesus was real and lived as
Christians believed and was raised from the dead.
Everything follows from that answer.
To assert that opinion is everything, and whatever works
for you is as good as whatever works for the next guy,
is to assent to Christ being a myth and his resurrection a lie.
But what if the evidence says they are likely to be true?
Would it matter then what Zoroaster said? Zeus? The
Spaghetti Monster?
DC
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>....Don, there will allways be questions if we don't understand things,
and
>that's reall good...
>This is the end for me in this discussion that went far away from its
>origin, where I was the second in this thread, asking questions about the
>difference between China's invasion in Tibet or USA's invasion in Iraq,
when
>James asked to boycott China after their behavings in Tibet in the last.
I
>think there must have been problems to get any answers on this since I
>couldn't see any;-)
>
>Erling
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:47e29d1f$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, this is your version of the "human myth making" story.
>>
>> What if Jesus was not a myth?
>>
>> What if the only version that is a myth is the one we make up?
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>>>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the
>>>familyculture
>>
>>>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live
and
>>
>>>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of
>>>sins
>>
>>>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
>> to
>>>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the
>>>words
>>
>>>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the
>>>hands
>>
>>>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>>>
>>>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in
>>>peace
>>
>>>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For
me,
>>
>>>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways
to
>>
>>>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>>
>>>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years
>>>before
>>
>>>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>>
>>>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being
>>>written
>>
>>>down.
>>>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>>>
>>>Thanks for listening.
>>>
>>>Erling
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>>
>>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>>
>>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>>>
>>>>>No.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think
that
>>>>>
>>>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>>>
>>>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>>>
>>>>>best,
>>>>>
>>>>>DC
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing
to
>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and
he
>>>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much
>>>>>>>>> spot-on?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If
so,
>>>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and
>>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most
have
>>>>>a
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think
it
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from
the
>>>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
>> all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97144 is a reply to message #97125] |
Thu, 20 March 2008 14:30 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Erling, this explains a LOT. If your experience with Christianity is with
Apostolic Christians, than I totally understand your thinking. What I'm
about to say is not meant to offend anybody especially you Erling. What
I am about to say is fact as I know it and my opinion based on my personal
experiences with Apostolic Christians that I know.
First off, there are many different versions of Christianity. Some have
been twisted and perverted the teachings of Christianity over history for
their own purposes. Others have mis-taught the bible due to misunderstanding
or misinterpretation. And others have concocted and added to the bible,
which it says in the bible not to do. Many phonies claim to be Christians
that use the name of Jesus Christ to make money. Because anybody can claim
to be a Christian, Christianity is not perfect. Not all Christians are the
same, and may have differing beliefs. Christianity is not alone when it
comes to these things, other religions also have similar problems, such as
extremism.
From my experience and knowledge, the Apostolic Christians are a misguided
bunch. They have many strict man made rules, such as, women can not swim
with men, they consider this a sin. The women are not supposed to cut their
hair, and they must cover their legs, etc. Their minister worship, which
is man worship, not God worship fringes on being a Christian cult. The women
are so brainwashed by their ministers that they will do almost ANYTHING their
ministers tell them to do. In other words, they worship and follow what
man tells them to do, not what the bible says, which is the word of God.
They are vary controlled. They are a vary strange bunch.
There are Christian extremist that pervert the teachings of the bible and
give Christians a bad name. The media loves to exploit the radical Christians
like the ones that dance around with rattle snakes in order to make Christians
look bad. They want people to think all Christians are a bunch of nuts.
The phony TV evangelist that claim to be good Christians, and then try to
sell you their latest book on how to think and how to send them more money,
give Christianity a bad name. It's especially bad when these hypocrites
go off with prostitutes and so on. The real bad part about this is, that
is what most non believers are exposed to, and end up believing that that
is what Christianity is about.
It is vary unfortunate that Christians are viewed so poorly because of a
few.
"erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>James, did you read DC's post that I answered and do I wrote English so
>badly that you couldn't see or understand what I wrote about the child?
I
>know very well Christianity after living with my family in the American
>Church, "The Apostolic Faith" in Stavanger, Norway, as far as I remember
in
>my youth. I know excactly well how it is to be confirmed with sins and "the
>right way of living" from my whole youth in late '40 and the '50. To be
>curious on the society in the town and the pulsing life outside The
>Apostolic Church, I was told nearly all the times in my youth that the
>people there lived in sin, so I should stay far away from them.
>Unbelieveable nice people in the Church, that did know what the bible said
>but didn't know anything about the society around them, because the society
>was just living in sin and was doomed in their eyes. Not any harm at all
>with these people, just that they had isolated themself from the society
in
>those old biblereadings, in the name of Christ.
>So please James, don't tell me that I don't understand Christianity way
of
>living, if it is that you're trying to say with your lines here.
>
>Thanks for listening and give it a try to understand what I really wrote.
>
>Erling
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:47e22dbe$1@linux...
>>
>> It always amazes me how so many people do not under stand Christianity.
A
>> child is not told it is doomed, just the opposite. The child is told
that
>> if the child is baptized and believes in Jesus Christ, the child is saved!
>>
>> "erlilo" <erlingl@tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>>>...and what did the New testament wrote about Jesus and the children?
>>>Basically, a child are borned without any sin at all, but the
>>>familyculture
>>
>>>a child is growing up in, will allways color the way a child will live
and
>>
>>>go. If you're telling your child that it is lost and doomed because of
>>>sins
>>
>>>in your storytellings to a child, you are really taking the first steps
>> to
>>>destroy a childs mind. In my eyes, religious brainwashing are just the
>>>words
>>
>>>for this kind of doings. We are just giving our sivilization into the
>>>hands
>>
>>>of our childrens future with the ways we're living the day.
>>>
>>>There have allways been good and bad sivilizations, that could live in
>>>peace
>>
>>>or make war, that have really been colored by good or bad leaders. For
me,
>>
>>>the old Bible is just a historical "cooking book" with recipes of ways
to
>>
>>>live, after someone seeing and learning about good and bad ways to live,
>>
>>>told from mouth to mouth by good people up against thousand of years
>>>before
>>
>>>someone could written the words down, with all that colorations the words
>>
>>>had got from mouth to mouth in those thousand of years before being
>>>written
>>
>>>down.
>>>I will just call it with few words: The Wisdom Words of Life.
>>>
>>>Thanks for listening.
>>>
>>>Erling
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>>>news:47e1929b$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>>
>>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>>
>>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>Did Jesus say all people are not basically good?
>>>>>
>>>>>No.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree with Hubbard: what's real for you is real for you. I think
that
>>>>>
>>>>>>is as fair and true a statement as can be made. Make your own decisions
>>>>>
>>>>>>and keep your own counsel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some things may be simply real.
>>>>>
>>>>>best,
>>>>>
>>>>>DC
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DC wrote:
>>>>>>> But, (and I am speaking to you and Erling here), both the
>>>>>>> "myth making" view of faith and the opinions of Hubbard (and
>>>>>>> many others) about human nature became moot if the evidence for
>>>>>>> Jesus is compelling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> By the way, belief or non-belief in Jesus has absolutely nothing
to
>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with Scientology. Scientology is not "faith-based". It is entirely
>>>>>>>> empirically derived and the technologies of Scientology are
>>>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> daily by Scientologists. Hubbard was trained as an engineer and
he
>>>>>>>> insisted that his technology be as workable and repeatable as e.g.
>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> formula for building a bridge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many Christians, Jews, what have you are also Scientologists - but
>>>>>>>> saner, happier ones. Hubbard wrote, "What is true for you is what
>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> true for you."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DC wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I just have one question for you both.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would change in your beliefs if it could be shown that
>>>>>>>>> the real Jesus was the one of the Bible? That all the best
>>>>>>>>> evidence, when considered outside of philosophical
>>>>>>>>> pre-commitments, shows that Jesus was who he said he was,
>>>>>>>>> and the story of his origin, purpose, his life, death and
>>>>>>>>> yes his resurrection, as shown in the Bible, is pretty much
>>>>>>>>> spot-on?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to "faith as human myth-making and story
>>>>>>>>> telling"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to Scientology?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it is true, would it not affect your beliefs profoundly? If
so,
>>>>>>>>> then I would suggest resolving this issue is an important task;
>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most important of all the things we do in this
>>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would happen to faith as mere human
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> All people are basically good and are trying to survive as they
>>>>>>>>>> understand it. With that starting point you can understand and
>>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> others. All people are basically good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> erlilo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Most of the difference and
>>>>>>>>>>> problems are in the HUMAN made religions that's for the most
have
>>>>>a
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>>>>> thousand of years back in the history. It's special to think
it
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> over,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> bible was a product that's started our christian stories from
the
>>>>>Middle
>>>>>>>>>>> East with stories about God and The Garden of Eden(in Iran) and
>> all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wars
>>>>>>>>>>> following up, long before someone could write at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
|
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|
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| Re: China [message #97183 is a reply to message #97130] |
Fri, 21 March 2008 04:48 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
the tower of babel wasn't about different languages it's about
different ideas of god. we can all agree that a tree is a tree no
matter in what language but god and salvation is quite a different
animal.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:15:58 -0600, Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net>
wrote:
>I'll only post this in response to your two posts since this topic is not
>only off topic, but also unpopular:
>
>Actually the Bible says Romans 3:22-24 "22 This righteousness from God comes
>through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23
>for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified
>freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
>
>Some use "turn or burn" tactics, but I don't agree with that approach. At
>the same time, the "do whatever feels right to you" mentality is also
>fatally flawed. Between those two is where Jesus taught - we aren't
>perfect, and will never be on our own (anyone that disagrees, please attempt
>to go a whole day without making a mistake of any kind, whether in action,
>how you talk to someone else, or how you think ;-). Only through God's
>grace and by his love can be be perfected in Him - not perfect humans, but
>loved perfectly (i.e. beyond what we practice and understand in human love)
>
>The point of the above passage, and the idea that we have all sinned is that
>we can't receive God's grace and forgiveness, and become "righteous" in His
>sight by our own power, deeds or merit. It isn't a scare tactic even though
>it has been used that way.
>
>We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
>the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
>raised from the dead to reunite with His Father - this became the symbol of
>what "being saved" is all about - allowing old ways to die, and a new life
>to begin, not just living a good life. This is how the concept of being
>sinners really becomes a beautiful thing - we aren't doomed to pay for our
>mistakes forever. There is hope. We also can't keep making the same
>mistakes without consequences, whether earthly or heavenly (the former is
>common sense - keep hitting your thumb with a hammer, eventually you'll
>break it ;-).
>
>In practice the change is real, and the heart does take on a new perspective
>on our own lives, responsibilities, people around us, etc. We don't stop
>making mistakes (but that's what forgiveness is for - not excuses, but
>second chances), and we don't become perfect humans, but now we have hope
>beyond what the world has to offer.
>
>Happy Easter all,
>Dedric
>
>
>On 3/20/08 8:03 AM, in article 47e27184@linux, "Bill L"
><bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
>> Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
>> control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
>> the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
>>
>> I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
>> goodness of man.
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>
>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>
>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>
>>> DC
|
|
|
|
| Re: China [message #97186 is a reply to message #97183] |
Fri, 21 March 2008 07:03 |
Stevehwan
Messages: 207
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Don't know what books you are reading but the tower of babel isn't about different
gods. It was about the power of agreement. All those people were in agreement
to build a tower that would reach Heaven. Wasn't Gods plan for getting to
Heaven. So He had to do something to break their wrong motives and broke
their native tongue up into different languages so that they couldn't understand
each other and the tower stopped. So when you hear about someone who is just
"babelling" on about something, you'll know where the term came from. Babelling
never makes any sense does it? But don't take my word for it... Take His.
Check out the Word.
rick <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote:
>the tower of babel wasn't about different languages it's about
>different ideas of god. we can all agree that a tree is a tree no
>matter in what language but god and salvation is quite a different
>animal.
>
>On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:15:58 -0600, Dedric Terry <dterry@keyofd.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I'll only post this in response to your two posts since this topic is not
>>only off topic, but also unpopular:
>>
>>Actually the Bible says Romans 3:22-24 "22 This righteousness from God
comes
>>through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23
>>for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified
>>freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
>>
>>Some use "turn or burn" tactics, but I don't agree with that approach.
At
>>the same time, the "do whatever feels right to you" mentality is also
>>fatally flawed. Between those two is where Jesus taught - we aren't
>>perfect, and will never be on our own (anyone that disagrees, please attempt
>>to go a whole day without making a mistake of any kind, whether in action,
>>how you talk to someone else, or how you think ;-). Only through God's
>>grace and by his love can be be perfected in Him - not perfect humans,
but
>>loved perfectly (i.e. beyond what we practice and understand in human love)
>>
>>The point of the above passage, and the idea that we have all sinned is
that
>>we can't receive God's grace and forgiveness, and become "righteous" in
His
>>sight by our own power, deeds or merit. It isn't a scare tactic even though
>>it has been used that way.
>>
>>We have to accept and believe that Jesus, not only loves us, but also took
>>the burden of our own sin upon himself by dying on the cross and being
>>raised from the dead to reunite with His Father - this became the symbol
of
>>what "being saved" is all about - allowing old ways to die, and a new life
>>to begin, not just living a good life. This is how the concept of being
>>sinners really becomes a beautiful thing - we aren't doomed to pay for
our
>>mistakes forever. There is hope. We also can't keep making the same
>>mistakes without consequences, whether earthly or heavenly (the former
is
>>common sense - keep hitting your thumb with a hammer, eventually you'll
>>break it ;-).
>>
>>In practice the change is real, and the heart does take on a new perspective
>>on our own lives, responsibilities, people around us, etc. We don't stop
>>making mistakes (but that's what forgiveness is for - not excuses, but
>>second chances), and we don't become perfect humans, but now we have hope
>>beyond what the world has to offer.
>>
>>Happy Easter all,
>>Dedric
>>
>>
>>On 3/20/08 8:03 AM, in article 47e27184@linux, "Bill L"
>><bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, repeat *personally*, I think some creepy, disgusting Dark
>>> Ages priests said "all are lost and doomed by their sins". That is their
>>> control mechanism: "Do what we say or burn forever in Hell. Only I know
>>> the truth." Personally, I think that kind of coercion is disgusting.
>>>
>>> I prefer to believe Jesus was full of love and trust and belief in the
>>> goodness of man.
>>>
>>>
>>> DC wrote:
>>>> Sorry, I misread your question.
>>>>
>>>> Jesus taught that all are lost and all are doomed by their
>>>> sins. He never ever said people are basically good and
>>>> this position is against everything he stood and died for.
>>>>
>>>> We can pursue this further if you like, but it is very clear.
>>>>
>>>> DC
>
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