Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Honda to Discontinue Hybrid Accord Sedan
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| Re: Honda to Discontinue Hybrid Accord Sedan [message #88065 is a reply to message #86328] |
Fri, 13 July 2007 21:08   |
BT
Messages: 19
Registered: February 2007
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Junior Member |
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I want to see a seriously scientific analysis for comparison of the
total ecological impact of a fuel efficient internal combustion engine
vs this Toyota Hybrid.
What I think people don't fully consider is how the "plug-in"
electricity is generated, what energy loss is sustained in it's
transmission, storage to and recall from the battery. On the upside,
there is certainly an advantage to recapturing kinetic energy via
braking by generator.
I'm betting that, depending on the type of electrical generating plant,
and factoring in the efficiency losses above, a plug-in electrical
hybrid may have as big of a total carbon footprint as an efficient
internal combustion engine. It's just that you've offloaded some of the
power generating requirements to another location and methodology.
Factor in the environmental impact of battery manufacture and disposal
as well.
Out-of-sight and out-of-mind may, or may not, actually equate to more
eco-friendly.
Best regards,
Brian T
chuck duffy wrote:
> Check this out:
>
> http://www.tfot.info/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&pag e=inline&id=209&catid=1&limitstart=189
>
> Toyota is doing a new lithium ion based battery, plug-in prius that will
> do up to 125 MPG. Set for release in 2008/2009.
>
> This will probably be my first hybrid car.
>
> Chuck
>
> Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:38:14 -0600, "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:466666c1$1@linux...
>>>> http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?news_id=ap-d8 pivoe80&
>>> Cool !!!! Now it's like a Paris system
>>>
>>> (just trying to stay on topic so Kim doesn't send a guy over here to break
>
>>> my knees)
>>>
>> I think the problem lies in Honda's marketing department. Toyota
>> advertises the crap out of their system and Priusesses (Priuii??)
>> while Honda essentially put cars on the market and just left it up to
>> the consumer to find them.
>>
>> My wife drives a Honda Insight. Wonderful car. Gets 52mpg average.
>> Different technology than the Toyotas - Toyota is an electric car
>> with gas assist - kicks butt around town. The Honda is a gas car with
>> electric assist - kicks butt on the highway.
>>
>> But Sheri really had to dig to find anything about the Insight when
>> she went shopping three years ago. Same with the current Honda
>> hybrids.
>>
>> Instead of whacking a model and blaming engineering, for once, please,
>> club the marketing weenies over the heads with baseball bats and buy
>> them a clue!!!!!!
>>
>> pab
>
Regards,
Brian T
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| Re: Honda to Discontinue Hybrid Accord Sedan [message #88069 is a reply to message #88065] |
Sat, 14 July 2007 00:37 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
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Senior Member |
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BT wrote:
> I want to see a seriously scientific analysis for comparison of the
> total ecological impact of a fuel efficient internal combustion engine
> vs this Toyota Hybrid.
First, I can give you a comparison with a standard Prius hybrid and one
of the most efficient ICE-only vehicles.
In highway driving my 1992 Honda Civic VX does about as good as a
standard (non plug-in) Prius. Around 50 mpg. Although the Prius is a
bigger car so that's actually pretty good for the Prius.
I don't know why Honda quit making the VX, it's a great little car,
double hatchback like a station wagon, hauls lots of stuff and sips gas.
When you need power it's there, when you don't it runs very efficiently
(for an ICE vehicle).
However in city driving the standard Prius probably runs circles around
my Honda. There the Prius can really use the combination of smaller,
specialized ICE and high torque electric assist. It can kill its ICE
entirely in stop and go driving and inch along on battery power, wasting
no power idling when stopped.
As for the canard that a *plug-in* Prius (of which there are a very few
right now, converted by third parties) is less efficient than an
straight ICE, that's very questionable.
First, the equivalent MPG for average distance driving is near or over
100MPG. That's better than any ICE.
Second, the electricity used for the first X miles can be generated from
non-polluting sources. Wind, solar, hydro.
But even if it's from a coal plant it's still less pollution than an ICE
for the energy used, and it's likely to be easier to mitigate pollution
at one plant than a gazillion small mobile pollution sources: ICE cars.
Also, if plug-in cars charge at night, I've read that there may be
otherwise unused power available on the grid, enough to charge millions
of cars. Wind turbines still spinning, hydro still generating and coal
plants that don't shut down even when their power isn't being used.
I'll have to dig up some stats for you on the plug-in Prius, it's been
discussed quite a bit...
OK, here's one. See what you think of this analysis (they obviously like
the idea but they do present some actual numbers to help make their case):
http://www.pluginamerica.com/images/EmissionsSummary.pdf (summary below)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
"PHEVs reduce CO2 emissions by 37%-67% compared with ICEs and by 19%-54%
compared with HEVs in well-to-wheels (W2W) analyses assuming fueling with
gasoline and electricity from the U.S. mix of power plants (and ignoring
one or two
outliers in the data). PHEVs reduce all other greenhouse gas emissions too.
EVs reduce CO2 by 11%-100% compared with ICEs and by 24%-54% compared with
HEVs, and significantly reduce all other greenhouse gas emissions, using
the U.S. grid
mix. If all U.S. cars were EVs, wed reduce global warming emissions. Using
electricity strictly from coal, EVs still would reduce CO2 by 0%-59%
compared with
ICEs (one analysis found 0% change; six others found reductions of
17%-59%) and
might produce 30%-49% more CO2 than HEVs (based on only two analyses).
On the
other hand, if electricity comes from solar or wind power, EVs eliminate
all emissions.
Using natural gas to make electricity, emissions fall in between those
from coal and
renewable power.
As for criteria air pollutants the emissions that cause smog or acid
rain the data are
mixed on whether using electricity for fuel would create more or less
emissions
compared with using gasoline. In either case, however, these emissions
wont
necessarily enter the atmosphere. (See final paragraph of summary.)
Most analyses of
criteria pollutants look only at EVs and ICEs; numbers for PHEVs or HEVs
may be
based on only one study.
Overall:
NOx Compared with ICEs, PHEVs decrease NOx by as much as 67% or
increase it up to 83%; EVs decrease it by 32%-99%. Compared with HEVs,
PHEVs
may decrease NOx by 110% or increase it up to 108%; EVs increase it 384%.
PM Compared with ICEs, PHEVs increase it by 2%; EVs may decrease PM
by as much as 97% or increase it up to 122%. Compared with HEVs, PHEVs
increase it
130% and EVs increase it 483%.
SOx Compared with ICEs, PHEVs increase it by 53%; EVs increase it by
17%-296%. Compared with HEVs, PHEVs may increase SOx by 283% and EVs by
1120%.
Regulations are in place and technology exists to contain any of these
criteria pollutant
emissions that power plants create. Scrubbers can handle SOx, selective
catalytic
reduction technology can handle NOx and mercury, and baghouses and
electrostatic
precipitators can contain PM. The 1990 acid rain amendments to the Clean
Air Act cap
total acid rain emissions, so no matter how much electricity we
generate, total SOx
emissions will continue declining if the Act is enforced. While there is
no absolute cap
on PM, federal rules are in place to ensure that these emissions
especially the smallest
particulates will decrease as well, regardless of the amount of
electricity produced.
(Source: Charles Garlow, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Air
Enforcement
Division)
Indeed, power-plant criteria pollutants have been decreasing even as the
U.S. generates
more and more electricity. Greenhouse gases, which are not yet
regulated, are a bigger
concern. PHEVs certainly (and EVs almost surely) reduce W2W greenhouse gas
emissions compared with ICEs or HEVs, because so much of the CO2 comes from
burning gasoline. PHEVs and EVs get cleaner as the grid gets cleaner
with the addition
of more renewable power, but ICEs create more exhaust as they age.
PHEVs and EVs have the added advantage of moving emissions away from
population
centers (where ICE tailpipes pollute the most). It is simpler to
regulate emissions from a
smaller number of power plants than from 200 million tailpipes.
Overall, PHEVs and EVs create fewer emissions by using cleaner, cheaper,
domestic
electricity."
BT wrote:
> I want to see a seriously scientific analysis for comparison of the
> total ecological impact of a fuel efficient internal combustion engine
> vs this Toyota Hybrid.
>
> What I think people don't fully consider is how the "plug-in"
> electricity is generated, what energy loss is sustained in it's
> transmission, storage to and recall from the battery. On the upside,
> there is certainly an advantage to recapturing kinetic energy via
> braking by generator.
>
> I'm betting that, depending on the type of electrical generating plant,
> and factoring in the efficiency losses above, a plug-in electrical
> hybrid may have as big of a total carbon footprint as an efficient
> internal combustion engine. It's just that you've offloaded some of the
> power generating requirements to another location and methodology.
> Factor in the environmental impact of battery manufacture and disposal
> as well.
>
> Out-of-sight and out-of-mind may, or may not, actually equate to more
> eco-friendly.
>
> Best regards,
> Brian T
>
> chuck duffy wrote:
>> Check this out:
>>
>> http://www.tfot.info/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&pag e=inline&id=209&catid=1&limitstart=189
>>
>>
>> Toyota is doing a new lithium ion based battery, plug-in prius that will
>> do up to 125 MPG. Set for release in 2008/2009.
>>
>> This will probably be my first hybrid car.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> Paul Braun <cygnus_nospam@ctgonline.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:38:14 -0600, "DJ" <www.aarrrrggghhh!!!.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:466666c1$1@linux...
>>>>> http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?news_id=ap-d8 pivoe80&
>>>> Cool !!!! Now it's like a Paris system
>>>>
>>>> (just trying to stay on topic so Kim doesn't send a guy over here to
>>>> break
>>
>>>> my knees)
>>>>
>>> I think the problem lies in Honda's marketing department. Toyota
>>> advertises the crap out of their system and Priusesses (Priuii??)
>>> while Honda essentially put cars on the market and just left it up to
>>> the consumer to find them.
>>>
>>> My wife drives a Honda Insight. Wonderful car. Gets 52mpg average.
>>> Different technology than the Toyotas - Toyota is an electric car
>>> with gas assist - kicks butt around town. The Honda is a gas car with
>>> electric assist - kicks butt on the highway.
>>>
>>> But Sheri really had to dig to find anything about the Insight when
>>> she went shopping three years ago. Same with the current Honda
>>> hybrids.
>>>
>>> Instead of whacking a model and blaming engineering, for once, please,
>>> club the marketing weenies over the heads with baseball bats and buy
>>> them a clue!!!!!!
>>>
>>> pab
>>
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