Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Close, but no cigar.
| Close, but no cigar. [message #75266] |
Wed, 01 November 2006 19:10  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
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Been researching this one a bit...
http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
else???
Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
only?
As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
Someone needs to developthe following:
***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
and/or a half-racker!
*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
Make 'em good ones please - you can do good ones for the same
price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
you KNOW you can!
***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
that separately if they want.
*** MIDI i/o... duh.
***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
route anyway.
***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
importantly WOULD - sell?
I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
price?
I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
you could do basic tracks that looked like:
1.) Kick
2.) Snare Top
3.) Snare Bottom
4.) HiHat
5.) OH-Right
6.) OH-Left
7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
9.) Bass D.I.
10.) Bass mic'ed
11.) Guitar 1a
12.) Guitar 1b
13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
15.) Scratch Vox
16.) Cowbell
Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
two years later"...
.... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
point!).
So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
<Rant off>
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| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75271 is a reply to message #75266] |
Wed, 01 November 2006 22:04  |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Neil, i was just thinking to myselft the other this very same thing."It should
have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
you KNOW you can!"
I full concurr with your want list. This ype of product is not to be found
today..
Emu, is he closest I've seen to approach this level of complete ness.
Although , the new Apogee (Mac only ) unit is close, but lacking he on board
dsp fx..
"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>
>Been researching this one a bit...
>
>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>
>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>else???
>
>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>only?
>
>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>
>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>
>Someone needs to developthe following:
>
>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>and/or a half-racker!
>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>you KNOW you can!
>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>that separately if they want.
>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>route anyway.
>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>
>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>
>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>importantly WOULD - sell?
>
>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>price?
>
>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>
>1.) Kick
>2.) Snare Top
>3.) Snare Bottom
>4.) HiHat
>5.) OH-Right
>6.) OH-Left
>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>9.) Bass D.I.
>10.) Bass mic'ed
>11.) Guitar 1a
>12.) Guitar 1b
>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>15.) Scratch Vox
>16.) Cowbell
>
>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>
>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>two years later"...
>
>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>point!).
>
>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>
><Rant off>
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| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75272 is a reply to message #75271] |
Wed, 01 November 2006 21:50 |
animix
Messages: 356
Registered: September 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
It's too early for me to make any kind of truly informed assessment but I'm
starting to be pretty impressed with the Creamware hardware and software.
I'll be more informed after the weekend but one advantage over RME I can see
right now is a single sync plate to control multiple cards which are
interconnected by ribbon cables (sorta like Paris) rather than having to
daisy chain or independently clock multiple cards via their own I/O. this
always sorta seemed redundant. Personally, I think the Scope routing
environment/mixer is much more intuitive than the RME totalmix, but that's
because I'm used to the Paris virtual patchbay. There are a lot of
similarities..........and so far, the factory support for this platform has
been nothing short of wonderful. A very responsive N. American tech support
department in B.C. and a very courteous/informative user's forum. I'll keep
you guys informed as I start putting this system through it's paces. It's
got every kind of driver I/O module and onboard DSP powered FX and synth
imaginable. I'm pretty impressed so far but not into it enough to start
jujmping for joy. Hopefully that will happen though. It actually seems more
stable than my RME based system at this point.. I didn't expect
that.........but I don't have my 4 x UAD-1 cards interfaced with the system
yet. Stay tuned..
Deej
"Lamont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:45497c76$1@linux...
>
> Neil, i was just thinking to myselft the other this very same thing."It
should
> have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
> channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
> least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
> your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
> do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
> you KNOW you can!"
>
> I full concurr with your want list. This ype of product is not to be found
> today..
> Emu, is he closest I've seen to approach this level of complete ness.
> Although , the new Apogee (Mac only ) unit is close, but lacking he on
board
> dsp fx..
>
>
> "Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
> >
> >Been researching this one a bit...
> >
> >http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
> >
> >Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
> >CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
> >coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
> >analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
> >pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
> >prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
> >use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
> >else???
> >
> >Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
> >opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
> >they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
> >just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
> >time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
> >the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
> >coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
> >it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
> >entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
> >only?
> >
> >As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
> >
> >Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
> >units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
> >who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
> >lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
> >making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
> >
> >Someone needs to developthe following:
> >
> >***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
> >couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
> >but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
> >interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
> >afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
> >fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
> >and/or a half-racker!
> >*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
> >the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
> >price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
> >*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
> >channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
> >least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
> >your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
> >do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
> >you KNOW you can!
> >***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
> >complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
> >that separately if they want.
> >*** MIDI i/o... duh.
> >***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
> >or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
> >Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
> >route anyway.
> >***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
> >Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
> >units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
> >for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
> >needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
> >situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
> >
> >Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
> >
> >Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
> >importantly WOULD - sell?
> >
> >I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
> >various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
> >above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
> >sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
> >(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
> >word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
> >versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
> >have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
> >features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
> >price?
> >
> >I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
> >biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
> >rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
> >band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
> >with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
> >plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
> >drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
> >guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
> >MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
> >something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
> >just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
> >this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
> >trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
> >you could do basic tracks that looked like:
> >
> >1.) Kick
> >2.) Snare Top
> >3.) Snare Bottom
> >4.) HiHat
> >5.) OH-Right
> >6.) OH-Left
> >7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
> >8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
> >9.) Bass D.I.
> >10.) Bass mic'ed
> >11.) Guitar 1a
> >12.) Guitar 1b
> >13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
> >14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
> >15.) Scratch Vox
> >16.) Cowbell
> >
> >Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
> >for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
> >can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
> >get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
> >lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
> >mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
> >Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
> >have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
> >
> >Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
> >latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
> >takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
> >without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
> >reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
> >seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
> >being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
> >muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
> >two years later"...
> >
> >... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
> >all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
> >all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
> >about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
> >even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
> >look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
> >combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
> >point!).
> >
> >So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
> >
> ><Rant off>
>
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| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75279 is a reply to message #75272] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 08:59 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Good Luck DJ.. The Europeans daw users seem to love the SCOPE platform. It's
very powerful
I think the company Frontier Digital will make the kind(s) of interface that
Neil is talking about. They are very inovative with a keen eye to what's
"missing" is the average project studio. Not relying on re-inventing the
past..
"DJ" <notachance@net.net> wrote:
>It's too early for me to make any kind of truly informed assessment but
I'm
>starting to be pretty impressed with the Creamware hardware and software.
>I'll be more informed after the weekend but one advantage over RME I can
see
>right now is a single sync plate to control multiple cards which are
>interconnected by ribbon cables (sorta like Paris) rather than having to
>daisy chain or independently clock multiple cards via their own I/O. this
>always sorta seemed redundant. Personally, I think the Scope routing
>environment/mixer is much more intuitive than the RME totalmix, but that's
>because I'm used to the Paris virtual patchbay. There are a lot of
>similarities..........and so far, the factory support for this platform
has
>been nothing short of wonderful. A very responsive N. American tech support
>department in B.C. and a very courteous/informative user's forum. I'll keep
>you guys informed as I start putting this system through it's paces. It's
>got every kind of driver I/O module and onboard DSP powered FX and synth
>imaginable. I'm pretty impressed so far but not into it enough to start
>jujmping for joy. Hopefully that will happen though. It actually seems more
>stable than my RME based system at this point.. I didn't expect
>that.........but I don't have my 4 x UAD-1 cards interfaced with the system
>yet. Stay tuned..
>
>Deej
>
>
>
>
>"Lamont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:45497c76$1@linux...
>>
>> Neil, i was just thinking to myselft the other this very same thing."It
>should
>> have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>> channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>> least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>> your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>> do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>> you KNOW you can!"
>>
>> I full concurr with your want list. This ype of product is not to be found
>> today..
>> Emu, is he closest I've seen to approach this level of complete ness.
>> Although , the new Apogee (Mac only ) unit is close, but lacking he on
>board
>> dsp fx..
>>
>>
>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Been researching this one a bit...
>> >
>> >http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>> >
>> >Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>> >CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>> >coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>> >analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>> >pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>> >prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>> >use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>> >else???
>> >
>> >Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>> >opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>> >they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>> >just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>> >time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>> >the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>> >coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>> >it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>> >entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>> >only?
>> >
>> >As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>> >
>> >Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>> >units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>> >who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>> >lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>> >making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>> >
>> >Someone needs to developthe following:
>> >
>> >***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>> >couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>> >but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>> >interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>> >afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>> >fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>> >and/or a half-racker!
>> >*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>> >the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>> >price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>> >*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>> >channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>> >least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>> >your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>> >do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>> >you KNOW you can!
>> >***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>> >complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>> >that separately if they want.
>> >*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>> >***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>> >or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>> >Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>> >route anyway.
>> >***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>> >Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>> >units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>> >for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>> >needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>> >situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>> >
>> >Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>> >
>> >Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>> >importantly WOULD - sell?
>> >
>> >I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>> >various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>> >above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>> >sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>> >(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>> >word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>> >versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>> >have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>> >features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>> >price?
>> >
>> >I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>> >biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>> >rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>> >band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>> >with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>> >plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>> >drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>> >guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>> >MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>> >something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>> >just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>> >this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>> >trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>> >you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>> >
>> >1.) Kick
>> >2.) Snare Top
>> >3.) Snare Bottom
>> >4.) HiHat
>> >5.) OH-Right
>> >6.) OH-Left
>> >7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>> >8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>> >9.) Bass D.I.
>> >10.) Bass mic'ed
>> >11.) Guitar 1a
>> >12.) Guitar 1b
>> >13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>> >14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>> >15.) Scratch Vox
>> >16.) Cowbell
>> >
>> >Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>> >for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>> >can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>> >get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>> >lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>> >mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>> >Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>> >have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>> >
>> >Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>> >latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>> >takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>> >without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>> >reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>> >seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>> >being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>> >muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>> >two years later"...
>> >
>> >... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>> >all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>> >all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>> >about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>> >even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>> >look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>> >combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>> >point!).
>> >
>> >So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>> >
>> ><Rant off>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75289 is a reply to message #75266] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 11:36 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two or
three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts, 16
out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and professional
system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16 SP/DIFs.
Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's though
that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time after
that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was just
lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory of
Paris hardware.
I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company after
that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to think
I made that connection.
If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing data
shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up against
PT because it's already established in the market.
The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good enough,
and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems with
DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
That's my 0.02
James
"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>
>Been researching this one a bit...
>
>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>
>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>else???
>
>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>only?
>
>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>
>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>
>Someone needs to developthe following:
>
>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>and/or a half-racker!
>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>you KNOW you can!
>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>that separately if they want.
>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>route anyway.
>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>
>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>
>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>importantly WOULD - sell?
>
>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>price?
>
>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>
>1.) Kick
>2.) Snare Top
>3.) Snare Bottom
>4.) HiHat
>5.) OH-Right
>6.) OH-Left
>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>9.) Bass D.I.
>10.) Bass mic'ed
>11.) Guitar 1a
>12.) Guitar 1b
>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>15.) Scratch Vox
>16.) Cowbell
>
>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>
>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>two years later"...
>
>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>point!).
>
>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>
><Rant off>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75291 is a reply to message #75289] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 12:02 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Check out the two Analog Devices videos. The info on the developer kit will
get your wheels spinning.
http://aes.harmony-central.com/121AES/
James
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two or
>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts, 16
>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and professional
>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16 SP/DIFs.
> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
though
>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time after
>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
just
>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
of
>Paris hardware.
>
>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company after
>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to think
>I made that connection.
>
>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>
>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>
>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
data
>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
>
>
>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up against
>PT because it's already established in the market.
>
>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good enough,
>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems with
>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>
>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>
>That's my 0.02
>
>James
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>
>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>
>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>
>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>else???
>>
>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>only?
>>
>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>
>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>
>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>
>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>and/or a half-racker!
>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>you KNOW you can!
>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>that separately if they want.
>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>route anyway.
>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>
>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>
>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>
>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>price?
>>
>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>
>>1.) Kick
>>2.) Snare Top
>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>4.) HiHat
>>5.) OH-Right
>>6.) OH-Left
>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>16.) Cowbell
>>
>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>
>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>two years later"...
>>
>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>point!).
>>
>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>
>><Rant off>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75292 is a reply to message #75291] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 12:33 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Check out the two Analog Devices videos. The info on the developer kit
will
>get your wheels spinning.
>
>http://aes.harmony-central.com/121AES/
>
>James
Imagine if you could suck out of Paris every thing that makes Paris sound
great and have DSP recreate it in a new system. Instead of recreating an
1176, what if you could recreate a whole Neve series 80 console, Calrec,
Trident, Neotek, or the sound of an Ampex, Studer, or MCI recorder. Isn't
this what SCS did???
Lets get started on the next Paris system.
Ok, who'd like to dedicate their life to this, please raise their hand.
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two
or
>>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts,
16
>>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and
professional
>>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16
SP/DIFs.
>> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
>>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
>though
>>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time
after
>>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
>just
>>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
>of
>>Paris hardware.
>>
>>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company
after
>>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to
think
>>I made that connection.
>>
>>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>>
>>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>>
>>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
>> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>
>>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
>data
>>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
>>
>>
>>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up
against
>>PT because it's already established in the market.
>>
>>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good
enough,
>>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems
with
>>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>>
>>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>>
>>That's my 0.02
>>
>>James
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>>
>>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>>
>>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>>else???
>>>
>>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>>only?
>>>
>>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>>
>>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>>
>>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>>
>>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>>and/or a half-racker!
>>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>>you KNOW you can!
>>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>>that separately if they want.
>>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>>route anyway.
>>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>>
>>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>>
>>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>>
>>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>>price?
>>>
>>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>>
>>>1.) Kick
>>>2.) Snare Top
>>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>>4.) HiHat
>>>5.) OH-Right
>>>6.) OH-Left
>>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>>16.) Cowbell
>>>
>>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>>
>>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>>two years later"...
>>>
>>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>>point!).
>>>
>>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>>
>>><Rant off>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75293 is a reply to message #75292] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 11:43 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
not me !
James McCloskey wrote:
> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Check out the two Analog Devices videos. The info on the developer kit
> will
>> get your wheels spinning.
>>
>> http://aes.harmony-central.com/121AES/
>>
>> James
>
> Imagine if you could suck out of Paris every thing that makes Paris sound
> great and have DSP recreate it in a new system. Instead of recreating an
> 1176, what if you could recreate a whole Neve series 80 console, Calrec,
> Trident, Neotek, or the sound of an Ampex, Studer, or MCI recorder. Isn't
> this what SCS did???
>
> Lets get started on the next Paris system.
>
> Ok, who'd like to dedicate their life to this, please raise their hand.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> "James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two
> or
>>> three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts,
> 16
>>> out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>>> I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and
> professional
>>> system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16
> SP/DIFs.
>>> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
>>> Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
>> though
>>> that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time
> after
>>> that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>>> that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>>> Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
>> just
>>> lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
>> of
>>> Paris hardware.
>>>
>>> I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company
> after
>>> that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to
> think
>>> I made that connection.
>>>
>>> If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>>> and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>>> to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>>> a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>>> in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>>> for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>>> headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>>> to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>>>
>>> I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>>> was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>>> and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
>>> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>>> If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>>> as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>>> boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
>> data
>>> shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
>>>
>>>
>>> The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>>> SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up
> against
>>> PT because it's already established in the market.
>>>
>>> The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>>> in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good
> enough,
>>> and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems
> with
>>> DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>>>
>>> However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>>>
>>> That's my 0.02
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> "Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>>> Been researching this one a bit...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>>>
>>>> Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>>> CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>>> coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>>> analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>>> pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>>> prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>>> use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>>> else???
>>>>
>>>> Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>>> opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>>> they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>>> just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>>> time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>>> the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>>> coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>>> it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>>> entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>>> only?
>>>>
>>>> As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>>> units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>>> who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>>> lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>>> making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Someone needs to developthe following:
>>>>
>>>> ***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>>> couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>>> but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>>> interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>>> afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>>> fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>>> and/or a half-racker!
>>>> *** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>>> the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>>> price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>>> *** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>>> channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>>> least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>>> your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>>> do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>>> you KNOW you can!
>>>> ***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>>> complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>>> that separately if they want.
>>>> *** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>>> ***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>>> or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>>> Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>>> route anyway.
>>>> ***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>>> Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>>> units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>>> for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>>> needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>>> situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>>>
>>>> Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>>> importantly WOULD - sell?
>>>>
>>>> I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>>> various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>>> above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>>> sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>>> (Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>>> word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>>> versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>>> have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>>> features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>>> price?
>>>>
>>>> I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>>> biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>>> rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>>> band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>>> with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>>> plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>>> drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>>> guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>>> MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>>> something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>>> just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>>> this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>>> trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>>> you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Kick
>>>> 2.) Snare Top
>>>> 3.) Snare Bottom
>>>> 4.) HiHat
>>>> 5.) OH-Right
>>>> 6.) OH-Left
>>>> 7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>>> 8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>>> 9.) Bass D.I.
>>>> 10.) Bass mic'ed
>>>> 11.) Guitar 1a
>>>> 12.) Guitar 1b
>>>> 13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>>> 14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>>> 15.) Scratch Vox
>>>> 16.) Cowbell
>>>>
>>>> Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>>> for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>>> can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>>> get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>>> lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>>> mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>>> Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>>> have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>>>
>>>> Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>>> latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>>> takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>>> without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>>> reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>>> seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>>> being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>>> muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>>> two years later"...
>>>>
>>>> ... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>>> all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>>> all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>>> about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>>> even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>>> look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>>> combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>>> point!).
>>>>
>>>> So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>>>
>>>> <Rant off>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75295 is a reply to message #75289] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 15:34 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks James. Very informative..
As I'm reading your post, I staring at a picture (color- hi res) of the Mackie
x200 digital mixer. It's goregeous!!.. My wish is that they (Mackie) could
integrate their hd recorder inside of this unit. Say 96-128 track version..
That would be sweettt!!!
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two or
>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts, 16
>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and professional
>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16 SP/DIFs.
> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
though
>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time after
>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
just
>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
of
>Paris hardware.
>
>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company after
>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to think
>I made that connection.
>
>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>
>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>
>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
data
>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
>
>
>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up against
>PT because it's already established in the market.
>
>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good enough,
>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems with
>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>
>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>
>That's my 0.02
>
>James
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>
>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>
>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>
>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>else???
>>
>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>only?
>>
>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>
>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>
>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>
>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>and/or a half-racker!
>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>you KNOW you can!
>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>that separately if they want.
>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>route anyway.
>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>
>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>
>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>
>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>price?
>>
>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>
>>1.) Kick
>>2.) Snare Top
>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>4.) HiHat
>>5.) OH-Right
>>6.) OH-Left
>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>16.) Cowbell
>>
>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>
>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>two years later"...
>>
>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>point!).
>>
>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>
>><Rant off>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75303 is a reply to message #75295] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 17:32 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That was one of about 20 suggestions I gave the morning they showed the d8b
for the first time. I said since there is a computer MOBO in the d8b, why
not add HDs, a CDR and DAW software. He made the excuse that there wasn't
enough room in the d8b to add drives, so I made the mistake of saying, make
it rack mounted, some thing like the Magma expansion chassis. He said that
the rack mounted DAW idea was interesting to him. They put out the MDM later
for about 6K, as aposed to building it in and keeping the projected price
of the d8b, which was my suggestion. I also suggested making a rack mount
that you could put more FX cards in, give you more I/O, and external hard
drives and a CD burner. I suggested the CD burner with mastering/authorering
software. When I suggested a SCSI port or a FireWire port, he thought I
was crazy. I thought adding a PCI SCSI card and having a port on the back
of the d8b made a lot of sence. FW hadn't made it's way in to audio products
at that time. I made other suggestions they used over the years.
James
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Thanks James. Very informative..
>
>As I'm reading your post, I staring at a picture (color- hi res) of the
Mackie
>x200 digital mixer. It's goregeous!!.. My wish is that they (Mackie) could
>integrate their hd recorder inside of this unit. Say 96-128 track version..
>
>
>That would be sweettt!!!
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two
or
>>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts,
16
>>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and
professional
>>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16
SP/DIFs.
>> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see Malcolm
>>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
>though
>>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time
after
>>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
>just
>>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
>of
>>Paris hardware.
>>
>>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company
after
>>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to
think
>>I made that connection.
>>
>>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>>
>>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>>
>>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
>> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>
>>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
>data
>>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big DAWs.
>>
>>
>>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up
against
>>PT because it's already established in the market.
>>
>>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good
enough,
>>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems
with
>>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>>
>>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>>
>>That's my 0.02
>>
>>James
>>
>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>>
>>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>>
>>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>>else???
>>>
>>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>>only?
>>>
>>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>>
>>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>>
>>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>>
>>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>>and/or a half-racker!
>>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>>you KNOW you can!
>>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>>that separately if they want.
>>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>>route anyway.
>>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>>
>>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>>
>>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>>
>>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>>price?
>>>
>>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>>
>>>1.) Kick
>>>2.) Snare Top
>>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>>4.) HiHat
>>>5.) OH-Right
>>>6.) OH-Left
>>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>>16.) Cowbell
>>>
>>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>>
>>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>>two years later"...
>>>
>>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>>point!).
>>>
>>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>>
>>><Rant off>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75309 is a reply to message #75303] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 18:35 |
|
|
Man!!...James,you were ahead of your time..you are right about SSC's design
of paris. I recall that heeeee told me at namm 2ooo that Paris was designed
after his personal SSL..?
"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>That was one of about 20 suggestions I gave the morning they showed the
d8b
>for the first time. I said since there is a computer MOBO in the d8b, why
>not add HDs, a CDR and DAW software. He made the excuse that there wasn't
>enough room in the d8b to add drives, so I made the mistake of saying, make
>it rack mounted, some thing like the Magma expansion chassis. He said that
>the rack mounted DAW idea was interesting to him. They put out the MDM
later
>for about 6K, as aposed to building it in and keeping the projected price
>of the d8b, which was my suggestion. I also suggested making a rack mount
>that you could put more FX cards in, give you more I/O, and external hard
>drives and a CD burner. I suggested the CD burner with mastering/authorering
>software. When I suggested a SCSI port or a FireWire port, he thought I
>was crazy. I thought adding a PCI SCSI card and having a port on the back
>of the d8b made a lot of sence. FW hadn't made it's way in to audio products
>at that time. I made other suggestions they used over the years.
>
>James
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks James. Very informative..
>>
>>As I'm reading your post, I staring at a picture (color- hi res) of the
>Mackie
>>x200 digital mixer. It's goregeous!!.. My wish is that they (Mackie) could
>>integrate their hd recorder inside of this unit. Say 96-128 track version..
>>
>>
>>That would be sweettt!!!
>>
>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two
>or
>>>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts,
>16
>>>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit SP/DIF
>>>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and
>professional
>>>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16
>SP/DIFs.
>>> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see
Malcolm
>>>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
>>though
>>>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time
>after
>>>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>>>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it the
>>>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
>>just
>>>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
>>of
>>>Paris hardware.
>>>
>>>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company
>after
>>>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to
>think
>>>I made that connection.
>>>
>>>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>>>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough people
>>>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>>>
>>>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>>>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>>>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>>>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>>>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>>>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>>>
>>>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>>>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>>>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
>>> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>>
>>>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of them
>>>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>>>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
>>data
>>>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big
DAWs.
>>>
>>>
>>>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with PT,
>>>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up
>against
>>>PT because it's already established in the market.
>>>
>>>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building DSPs
>>>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good
>enough,
>>>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems
>with
>>>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>>>
>>>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>>>
>>>That's my 0.02
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>>>
>>>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>>>else???
>>>>
>>>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>>>only?
>>>>
>>>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>>>
>>>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>>>
>>>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>>>
>>>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>>>and/or a half-racker!
>>>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>>>you KNOW you can!
>>>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>>>that separately if they want.
>>>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>>>route anyway.
>>>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>>>
>>>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>>>
>>>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>>>
>>>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>>>price?
>>>>
>>>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>>>
>>>>1.) Kick
>>>>2.) Snare Top
>>>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>>>4.) HiHat
>>>>5.) OH-Right
>>>>6.) OH-Left
>>>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>>>16.) Cowbell
>>>>
>>>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>>>
>>>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>>>two years later"...
>>>>
>>>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>>>point!).
>>>>
>>>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>>>
>>>><Rant off>
>>>
>>
>
|
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| Re: Close, but no cigar. [message #75313 is a reply to message #75309] |
Thu, 02 November 2006 21:08 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"lamont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Man!!...James,you were ahead of your time..you are right about SSC's design
>of paris. I recall that heeeee told me at namm 2ooo that Paris was designed
>after his personal SSL..?
I think it was a custom Helios midas, thus the Paris gold GUI. I think Deej
can tell you exactly what it was.
Hey LaMont, speaking of crazy old consoles, check out this thread about Flickinger
consoles. Read what Steve Albini has to say about them. We have a studio
with one of these about thirty five minutes away from us. Might be interesting
to cut some stuff on it. It might be a great choice to model for our new
super Paris system, coming out SOON! : )
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/4418/0/0/0 /
James
>
>
>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>That was one of about 20 suggestions I gave the morning they showed the
>d8b
>>for the first time. I said since there is a computer MOBO in the d8b,
why
>>not add HDs, a CDR and DAW software. He made the excuse that there wasn't
>>enough room in the d8b to add drives, so I made the mistake of saying,
make
>>it rack mounted, some thing like the Magma expansion chassis. He said
that
>>the rack mounted DAW idea was interesting to him. They put out the MDM
>later
>>for about 6K, as aposed to building it in and keeping the projected price
>>of the d8b, which was my suggestion. I also suggested making a rack mount
>>that you could put more FX cards in, give you more I/O, and external hard
>>drives and a CD burner. I suggested the CD burner with mastering/authorering
>>software. When I suggested a SCSI port or a FireWire port, he thought
I
>>was crazy. I thought adding a PCI SCSI card and having a port on the back
>>of the d8b made a lot of sence. FW hadn't made it's way in to audio products
>>at that time. I made other suggestions they used over the years.
>>
>>James
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>Thanks James. Very informative..
>>>
>>>As I'm reading your post, I staring at a picture (color- hi res) of the
>>Mackie
>>>x200 digital mixer. It's goregeous!!.. My wish is that they (Mackie) could
>>>integrate their hd recorder inside of this unit. Say 96-128 track version..
>>>
>>>
>>>That would be sweettt!!!
>>>
>>>"James McCloskey" <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>About six years ago or so, I spoke to Max M. about them building a two
>>or
>>>>three space rack with 16 mic pres on combo connecters with 16 inserts,
>>16
>>>>out put and 16 channels of 24 bit Adat light Pipe I/O, and 16 24bit
SP/DIF
>>>>I/Os. I tried to convince EMU that Paris would be a more complete and
>>professional
>>>>system with mic pres with inserts and 24bit Adat light pipe I/O and 16
>>SP/DIFs.
>>>> Later at a NAMM show, I talked Max in to walking with me over to see
>Malcolm
>>>>Toft MTA and Rick Nafi at Presonus, about OEMing their mic pres. Max's
>>>though
>>>>that Mic pres might be too subjective. He told me for quite some time
>>after
>>>>that, that they were considering building it and said several times stated
>>>>that it was discussed in their internal meetings. He even called it
the
>>>>Paris Fire Station. I believe now, like many things he told me, it was
>>>just
>>>>lies to keep me pacified, until they could sell off all their inventory
>>>of
>>>>Paris hardware.
>>>>
>>>>I find it kind of funny that Malcolm Toft joined Ted Fletchers company
>>after
>>>>that and EMU OEMed their mic pres for the new EMU hardware. I want to
>>think
>>>>I made that connection.
>>>>
>>>>If you really want this product, you can make it happen by calling manufactures
>>>>and telling them what you want, just pick wisely! If you get enough
people
>>>>to call over time things will happen. The price is another story.
>>>>
>>>>Many years ago, I told the drum hardware designer at Alesis, that I wanted
>>>>a drum module with dry drum sounds so I could effect them the way I wanted
>>>>in the studio. I also told them that I wanted a built in effect processor
>>>>for live use and studio work. I also wanted more triggers, more outputs,
>>>>headphone output with volume knob, and a audio in put so I could practice
>>>>to music. To my surprise, they built it in the DM PRO drum module.
>>>>
>>>>I made many suggestions to Greg Mackie that became products. Only problem
>>>>was, the ideas were bastardize, sliced and diced in to multiple products
>>>>and they charged three to four times more than I suggested for each product.
>>>> These companies want to slice and dice every thing and make big bucks.
>>>
>>>>If you want it all it's an expensive add on. I've talked to many of
them
>>>>as a dealer, they think they can make more money selling little recording
>>>>boxes to bedroom guitar players or DJs. They think and their marketing
>>>data
>>>>shows that they can make more money selling the little boxes than big
>DAWs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The attitude is, if you want to play in the big time, you'll go with
PT,
>>>>SX, or Nuendo with third party hardware. Nobody really wants to go up
>>against
>>>>PT because it's already established in the market.
>>>>
>>>>The other issue is hardware becoming obsolete too quickly. Building
DSPs
>>>>in to a system is a bit of a risk. They think native systems are good
>>enough,
>>>>and that is what most people want, and if they need more, like systems
>>with
>>>>DSPs, that PT already fills that Pro end of the market.
>>>>
>>>>However if enough people talk to these companies, something will happen.
>>>>
>>>>That's my 0.02
>>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Been researching this one a bit...
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=7618
>>>>>
>>>>>Seems pretty good, has onboard DSP, taking a load off your
>>>>>CPU... has a nice monitoring interface - simpler than TotalMix,
>>>>>coupla mic inputs & DI's, as well, BUT... only has 4 balanced
>>>>>analog i/o's... so you gotta buy 4 of 'em to do 16 channels
>>>>>pure. ALSO... no BNC/word clock... WTF? Trying to get
>>>>>prorietary on us with a unit like THIS!!!??? We have to ONLY
>>>>>use these together with each other? Can't sync anything-digital-
>>>>>else???
>>>>>
>>>>>Handy, nice for "semiprosumer" applications, but another
>>>>>opportunity to really go after the pro market wasted, IMO -
>>>>>they have the technology, they have the tinker toy set, they
>>>>>just didn't "go pro" with it... Paris didn't either at the
>>>>>time, and neither did Emu with their 1812/1212, etc - although
>>>>>the onboard DSP & good convertors plus a few other features
>>>>>coulda got them there. Is everyone afraid of alsihad? Is that
>>>>>it? Is that why all things like this come out as small-time
>>>>>entrants targeted at price points in the home recording level
>>>>>only?
>>>>>
>>>>>As the subject line says: Close, but no cigar.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here's the thing... Yeah there are other options like MADI
>>>>>units that can get you 1,569,878,760,000 channels of i/o, but
>>>>>who needs that much, and then you also need a half dozen
>>>>>lightpipe interfaces, and stringing all that shit together &
>>>>>making it hum is mickey-mouse, too, IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>>Someone needs to developthe following:
>>>>>
>>>>>***A superb convertor box with 16 channels in & out, throw in a
>>>>>couple of d.i./mic pres & lightpipe/SPDIF ports if you want,
>>>>>but really what the world needs is more single-box 16 channel
>>>>>interfaces.. with 16 channels of pure analog i/o. Don't be
>>>>>afraid of going a full rack space long & 2 rack spaces deep,
>>>>>fer pete's sakes! Not everything has to be a single-space
>>>>>and/or a half-racker!
>>>>>*** It should have on-board DSP effects - like the TC unit or
>>>>>the new/soon to be discontinued EMU stuff, for example.
>>>>>price as sucky ones - yes, you can.
>>>>>*** It should have an ASIO driver that can allow for up to 16
>>>>>channels/submixes of passive analog summing (or if not that, at
>>>>>least DSP summing through something other than the PC's CPU)
>>>>>your box & return to 2 new channels in the DAW app - if you can
>>>>>do onboard DSP EFX, you can do onboard summing, too, yes sir
>>>>>you KNOW you can!
>>>>>***Throw in a copy of CubaseLE if you wanna... no need for a
>>>>>complete/full-out app like SX or Nuendo - people can indeed buy
>>>>>that separately if they want.
>>>>>*** MIDI i/o... duh.
>>>>>***Absolutely make it expandable to be able to easily link 2
>>>>>or more if someone needs more than 16 analog i/o's at once.
>>>>>Encourages people to buy another if they ever want to go that
>>>>>route anyway.
>>>>>***It should be PCI-based, not Firewire or USB. One card.
>>>>>Expansion units can be Firewired together via ports on the
>>>>>units themselves, and routed through the same card. Maybe allow
>>>>>for a max of 2 units per card to keep costs down... anyone
>>>>>needing more than 32 analog i/o's at once will no doubt be in a
>>>>>situation where they can go with PCI expansion chassis anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>Price point should be ~$1,200 to $1,500, street.
>>>>>
>>>>>Can you imagine how many of these they could - and more
>>>>>importantly WOULD - sell?
>>>>>
>>>>>I think it can be done for that price point - I mean look at
>>>>>various units like the EMu 1812, the TC unit I just linked to
>>>>>above, and the RME Multiface... all those units have various &
>>>>>sundry of the features I mentioned for around HALF that price
>>>>>(Multiface has 8 analog i/o's, plus other digital options, &
>>>>>word clock, but no onboard DSP... Emu & TC units have half-ass
>>>>>versions of less i/o's and one has no word clock, but both DO
>>>>>have DSP EFX) how hard would it be to incorporate all of these
>>>>>features I mentioned for twice to slightly more than twice the
>>>>>price?
>>>>>
>>>>>I think the 16-minimum channels of straight-up analog i/o is the
>>>>>biggest feature set that's missing from a lot of the half-
>>>>>rack half-asses out there... you can do a full rock/pop/country
>>>>>band with 16 in's - not a big huge major-label-type session
>>>>>with top & bottom snare mics; front, back & outfront kick mics,
>>>>>plus ambient room mics & a PZM taped to the wall or the
>>>>>drummer's T-Shirt, plus five channels of bass & 19 channels of
>>>>>guitar amp mics, but then the people who are doing those are
>>>>>MOSTLY (not all, but) MOSTLY on PT systems anyway, or if
>>>>>something like what I'm discussing were available, they could
>>>>>just buy TWO of these units. My point is, if something like
>>>>>this were available, with ONE unit, and no fucking around
>>>>>trying to lightpipe & wordclock all kinds of digicrap together,
>>>>>you could do basic tracks that looked like:
>>>>>
>>>>>1.) Kick
>>>>>2.) Snare Top
>>>>>3.) Snare Bottom
>>>>>4.) HiHat
>>>>>5.) OH-Right
>>>>>6.) OH-Left
>>>>>7.) Drum Room/Ambient Right
>>>>>8.) Drum Room/Ambient Left
>>>>>9.) Bass D.I.
>>>>>10.) Bass mic'ed
>>>>>11.) Guitar 1a
>>>>>12.) Guitar 1b
>>>>>13.) Guitar 2a (or Piano Lo/Keys Right)
>>>>>14.) Guitar 2b (or Piano Hi/Keys Left)
>>>>>15.) Scratch Vox
>>>>>16.) Cowbell
>>>>>
>>>>>Want to spot-mic your toms, too? OK, maybe only use 1 guitar
>>>>>for the basic trax & drop the cowbell if you need to & you
>>>>>can't stereo submix your toms into to two channels, but you
>>>>>get the idea, right? With 16 pure analog i/o you don't have to
>>>>>lightpipe or SPDIF anything in, you can use all your "BOOTEEK"
>>>>>mic pres like your Massenbergs & your Chandlers & your Great
>>>>>Rivers, etc - none of which come with digital i/o's - and still
>>>>>have a GREAT setup for a full-on basic tracking session!
>>>>>
>>>>>Then after you track all your basics, you've got your DSP-no-
>>>>>latency 'verb for the vocalist to hear as he's doing his real
>>>>>takes, and DSP summing for mixdown time, just like Gay Paree
>>>>>without the fucking mimes & the cats & the 17-day wait to
>>>>>reauthorize like the poor couple of sonsofbitches who we've
>>>>>seen posting the last few days; and just like PTHD, but without
>>>>>being trapped into the endless cycle of "spend more than I
>>>>>muthafuckin' have, spend more than I muthafucking have again
>>>>>two years later"...
>>>>>
>>>>>... so why hasn't somebody done this? THIS is the market we're
>>>>>all in, right? Those features at that price point? Wouldn't we
>>>>>all pay it? Tomorrow, first thing in the morning? Wouldn't
>>>>>about at least a quarter million other people that we don't
>>>>>even know about do the same? And it can be done (obviously,
>>>>>look at the half-assed feature sets at half the price that if
>>>>>combined, could add up to this type of unit at that price
>>>>>point!).
>>>>>
>>>>>So why? WHY hasn't anyone done this?
>>>>>
>>>>><Rant off>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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