The PARIS Forums


Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's.
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94696 is a reply to message #94690] Mon, 14 January 2008 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
In a discussion like this it's important to define the terms. In fact
"morals" may not be the most suitable word.

"Moral" is derived from the Latin word "moralis" which means "usage,
customs". Morals are rules of conduct accepted by a society or group and
based on group experience. Morals change with the times and with
different societies. For example to a person who works for his living it
would be immoral to withhold the name of a person who stole. To a
criminal it would be immoral to "rat him out".

The word "ethics" may be a more useful term. Ethics is based on logical
thought, rather than customary accepted behavior. What action would be
the greatest good.

For example sometimes a lie may be the most ethical way to handle a
situation even though morally speaking it would be wrong to lie. George
Washington must have had a hard life if he could really not tell a lie.

Anyway, my point is that people should learn to think logically with
ethics, rather than just follow a moral code (although a moral code is
better than nothing).

Here is a way to make an ethical decision (this comes from the writings
of L Ron Hubbard):

Life could be said to be composed of 8 "dynamics" or "urges toward
survival" as follows:

First Dynamic is the urge toward survival of self.

Second Dynamic is the urge toward survival through a) sex, and b)
children and family

Third Dynamic is the urge toward survival through groups (one's country,
school, company, this newsgroup, etc.)

Fourth is the the urge toward survival through mankind

Fifth is the urge toward survival through living things (animals,
plants, etc.)

Sixth dynamic is the urge toward survival through the physical world:
matter, energy, space, and time

Seventh is the urge toward survival through spirits

Eighth is the urge toward survival through god or infinity

To make an ethical choice just make sure it helps a majority of the 8
dynamics. An optimum survival choice would be one which benefits all
dynamics. Optimum survival is toward infinite survival.

Ideally we should teach our children to think with ethics and to make
their choices towards optimum survival. This will keep them from being
hoodwinked by, for example, a gang's moral code of hating the police and
other rival gangs.

Children need to be given tools for rational thought and logic, not
fixed ideas and certainly not false data or unethical ideas.
Individuality must be fostered, especially in any group activity.



DC wrote:
> Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
> be taught.
>
> There is no other answer.
>
> There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
> be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
> who
> does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
> is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>
> Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
> very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their own
> school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
> must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
> without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
> moral education to re enter public schools.
>
> Which set of morals?
>
> Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>
> But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>
> DC
>
> "chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>> Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker, instead
>> of just answering.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>> So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>
>>> Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>> conversation is not going away.
>>>
>>> Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>> Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>
>>> Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>
>>> After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>
>>> Again, have anything to offer?
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94698 is a reply to message #94695] Mon, 14 January 2008 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deej [5] is currently offline  Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>off,

errrrr..........just one small point. This country is not a democracy and
never has been. It is a representative republic with a bicameral legislature
which was specifically created to protect minority rights from the tyranny
majority rule, which is the essence of the definition of democracy. In this
country, we do employ a democratic "method" wherein the those who are legally
entitled to vote (the electorate) choose legislators who are, in turn, subject
to the rules as set out in the constitution and interpreted by the courts.


Just a small point........but perhaps important to some degree.

;o)

OK..now I'm gonna put on my flame suit and cover up.
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94700 is a reply to message #94698] Tue, 15 January 2008 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
In the case of selecting school standards it is essentially a democracy
of the engaged. (that then has to play political football with the
unengaged) In other words, the more you get involved the more say
you have.

Over the last few years, I have been involved in a couple of local committees
both city and county, and two things have impressed me:

It's actually quite easy to get involved and have your voice heard. (That

doesn't mean anyone is listening of course...)

Those people serving in these roles tend to be good folks and not
ideologues.

My point? Just as with school Science standards (and I am against the
mandated teaching of either creationism or ID) those with a burden on
the issue hold the conversation. There WILL be a conversation however,
especially on the teaching of virtue to young people. Then, some
consensus is formed, that hopefully will not upset either the militant
secularists, nor the conservative theists too much (though neither
side will get what they really want) and this is presented to the public
and made into policy. Then the activists try to get "the bums" who
passed this garbage all recalled and the policy nullified. They may succeed.
If they do not, the policy stands. The one group that gets well and truly
steamrollered are those who think the whole project is impossible.

It's not. Consensus is achievable.

And anyone who doesn't think that we have a real problem in
our public schools is in deep denial.

DC



"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>
>>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>>off,
>
>errrrr..........just one small point. This country is not a democracy and
>never has been. It is a representative republic with a bicameral legislature
>which was specifically created to protect minority rights from the tyranny
>majority rule, which is the essence of the definition of democracy. In this
>country, we do employ a democratic "method" wherein the those who are legally
>entitled to vote (the electorate) choose legislators who are, in turn, subject
>to the rules as set out in the constitution and interpreted by the courts.
>
>
>Just a small point........but perhaps important to some degree.
>
>;o)
>
>OK..now I'm gonna put on my flame suit and cover up.
>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94702 is a reply to message #94670] Tue, 15 January 2008 02:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rick is currently offline  rick   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
Senior Member
great...dumb but sane...is that marketable?



On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:38:06 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
wrote:

>Smarter? Naaa. Loonier maybe. If you were loonier you would have thought
>of that.
>
>S
>
>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2mamo3hjje0huv008c9bbq55efk88mc94r@4ax.com...
>> and if i were smarter i would have thought of that...
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:16:51 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Ignoransk is blisk" - Popeye
>>>
>>>S
>>>
>>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:32qjo3tacag3k1niba4n0sdgo18aafjb5v@4ax.com...
>>>> but they're happy...afterall ignorance is bliss.
>>>>
>>>> On 13 Jan 2008 14:09:17 +1000, "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>You are spot on. Our educational system started to decline in the late
>>>>>>'60s and has never recovered
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In analyzing a changing trend in a statistic, such as the decline in
>>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>>quality of the US school system, what you must do is look just BEFORE
>>>>>>the change occurred to find what caused it. What changed in the US
>>>>>>school system that has caused the drastic reduction in results?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Discuss please...
>>>>>
>>>>>Taking the emphasis off competition, pass/ fail grading and passing
>>>>>students
>>>>>
>>>>>along without them being able to accomplish the coursework.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94704 is a reply to message #94671] Tue, 15 January 2008 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sarah is currently offline  Sarah   UNITED STATES
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
Senior Member
Bill,

I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
assigned to the antisocial personality.

I think it works like this:

1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less work
that way.

See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
people being their usual crazy selves.

But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted us
to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
because they can't figure how to teach him.

Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the big
faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
work.

Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
Can you confront that possibility?

I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
persuasive or helpful.

Peace,

Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)


"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done by
> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>
> Confront it.
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are
>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>
>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>> story.
>>
>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm
>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>
>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>
>> S
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>>> big way.
>>>
>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>> between right and wrong.
>>>
>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>
>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>
>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>
>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>
>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>>> are our responsibility.
>>>
>>>
>>> rick wrote:
>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94706 is a reply to message #94704] Tue, 15 January 2008 06:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gantt Kushner is currently offline  Gantt Kushner   
Messages: 545
Registered: June 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, ...
Senior Member

This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
school.

Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.

Gantt

"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Bill,
>
> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to

>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,

>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>
> I think it works like this:
>
> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to

>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they

>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if

>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
work
>that way.
>
> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just

>people being their usual crazy selves.
>
> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include

>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their

>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
us
>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just

>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>
> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
big
>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at

>work.
>
> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,

>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became

>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?

>Can you confront that possibility?
>
> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children

>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all

>persuasive or helpful.
>
>Peace,
>
>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh

>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
by
>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful

>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>
>> Confront it.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield

>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
are
>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>
>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to

>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another

>>> story.
>>>
>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
I'm
>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks

>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>
>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright

>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
to
>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
a
>>>> big way.
>>>>
>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric

>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction

>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the

>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the

>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
on
>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
or
>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
rest
>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>
>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
be
>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
of
>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed

>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right

>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
is
>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that

>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>
>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the

>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children

>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
non
>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something

>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>


Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94709 is a reply to message #94695] Tue, 15 January 2008 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
Well, you still didn't answer my question, so I guess that's that.

As for the charge of pedantry, showy writing, and so forth, I decided a while
back that I'll only act stupider than I am when I'm chatting up unlettered
pretty girls. If she's a hottie from the 'burbs who had to be smuggled out
of Amity High and I want to see her naked, I'll pretend I watch reality TV
and don't know John Milton from Milton Friedman. For the rest of the world
I write and read the way I like. Some people find they can take advantage
of this, that I've hacked a few paths into the jungle that make their own
trek a bit easier. Other people decide I'm a pedant. As the Germans say,
Es ist mir wurst! It's all sausage to me!

TCB

"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Now then, here we have the DC rhetorical and debating style at its simplest
>>and purest. Or rather half of it. There's pit bull DC who will argue anything
>>to the bitter end and provoke the other party at every turn. Then there
>is,
>>grandfatherly DC (this one) who speaks in generalities, answers questions
>>with questions, and makes swooping appeals to open discussion and earnest
>>sharing of ideas. Grandfatherly DC shows up in two situations, a) when
DC
>>has provoked the other party into spittle jetting rage ('Now _look_ at
what
>>you're doing, tsk tsk') or b) when he's caught dead to rights. There's
also
>>the convenient chopping up of what other people write to avoid discussing
>>anything he doesn't want to discuss.
>
>
>This is supposed to be a substitute for content??
>
>How about you? Proud member of the assholes (I'm not a nice guy!)
>union? The list pedant, never missing a chance to display his knowledge?
>
>You have to be kidding. Man I edit you to spare you some grief...
>
>(grin)
>
>
>>In any case, you missed a chance to make a good, or at least your best,
>argument
>>here. You said morals, wisdom, and decency need to be taught alongside
'intelligence'
>>and I asked who got to choose the morals to be taught. Of course, that's
>>an almost impossibly difficult question, because at some point someone
is
>>going to object to some of those morals.
>
>
>Which of course is not at all the point.
>
>It's not impossible, and it's not even very difficult. It is, however,
>collaborative and you have contributed nothing. As usual.
>
>Is there common ground? Can we agree on some basics?
>
>
>>What you could have argued, to at
>>least get some breathing space, is that whatever morals should be taught
>>it shouldn't be that Frankfurt School relativism spouted by elite and effete
>>east coast Ivy Leaguers like me, which is the status quo. That misrepresents
>>both me and the status quo, but that's never stopped you before and it's
>>the best argumentative out you had.
>
>
>Nope. Don't give a damn about your relativism and neither will history.
>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>off, and most people have a clear set of morals. They will contribute
>where you will not. They will rule. You will not. You will hate them.
>That will make you feel special about yourself...
>
>
>>Now then, some parts of a good school curriculum have no moral component.
>>There's not much ethical spin possible when dealing with the laws of thermodynamics
>>or the Pythagorean Theorem. The satanist in Brooklyn, the maddrassah teacher
>>in Peshawar, the Mormon home schooler in Provo, and the radical settler
>on
>>the West Bank would all cheerfully agree that the speed of light is about
>>186,000 miles per second. So what we're really talking about is minimal
>social
>>sciences (barely taught outside of college), history, and languages and
>literature.
>
>You forgot Zoroastrianism and your friendly local Buddhist, not to
>mention your fellow Flying Spaghetti Monster worshipers...
>
>So, It's proven! Nothing can be done!! There can be no morals taught

>in schools.
>
>And you call this a position?
>
>
>>So then, if morals and decency are to be taught in public schools, I ask
>>this time thrice, who gets to decide what is taught?
>
>Thrice, he said thrice!! Must be educated...
>
>We the People, that's who. I just reject your thesis, out of hand,
>that is it impossible to find common ground.
>
>
>
>>As a delectable carrot to draw out an answer I offer this. If you answer
>>that question with any degree of thoughtfulness and thoroughness I will
>give
>>you _my_ opinion. And that is the opinion of someone who attended public
>>schools for twelve years, whose parents both spent their entire working
>lives
>>in public education, and who attended a private college where I got to
compare
>>my education to students who graduated in some of the most elite private
>>and public secondary schools in the world.
>>
>>This isn't a 'conversation' it's a simple question. Of course you don't
>have
>>to answer it, just don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
>>
>>TCB
>
>
>It's like asking who gets to elect the government. We do.
>
>Do you see any common ground or not?
>
>
>DC
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94710 is a reply to message #94692] Tue, 15 January 2008 08:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TCB is currently offline  TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
Senior Member
Now this post I have to save. DC name checks Richard Dawkins! That's like
me quoting ibn-Qutab or Pat Robertson with a straight face!

This is classic mis-reading of Dawkins, which is unsurprising. Between the
two of us 'The God Delusion' has been read twice, both times by me. Dawkins
goes to great length in the first chapter of that book to defend against
precisely what you're doing. That is, many scientists are 'social Christians,'
that is, they go to church to meet their friends and neighbors before settling
down to watch the Sunday football game. It's a very English thing, walk down
to see the vicar, talk about the rain, see the neighbor's kid growing up.
Many scientists (Dawkins singles out Einstein in particular) also make vague
statements about the mysteries they have yet to figure out that sound more
or less 'spiritual' but are at most crypto-deism.

Dawkins argues that the twice born use both of these things to heave onto
scientists attributes like the belief in a personal god and belief in a Christian
nation. He finds this especially perplexing for Americans since while the
first white Americans were religious nut jobs they were fleeing religious
oppression (in England) and went out of their way to take religion out of
control of the state.

So, Don, you're doing just what Dawkins says shouldn't be done. He says 'I
like singing Christmas carols' and you take that to mean 'I believe in a
common set of Christian values' where in fact he argues extensively, and
repeatedly, that Christian values as represented in scripture and the actions
of fundamentalist Christians are anathema to him.

So, Richard Dawkins vehemently disagrees.

TCB

"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>I think there is common ground. I think our traditions provide us with
>a set of behaviors we should expect of each other.
>
>Richard Dawkins evidently agrees.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm
>
>The truth is, I do not know which morals will be selected, or should be
>because I believe in a secular, (not secularist!) government and those
>choices are the product of a people, not a person.
>
>How would you teach morals in grade school? Should we be doing this?
>
>Well, I think so, and I think there is enough common ground to do so
>
>agree?
>
>DC
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>
>>Obfuscate all you want, you're digging a hole and hanging curtains. There's
>>no conversation here, just you being mysterious and vague.
>>
>>Chuck
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
>>>be taught.
>>>
>>>There is no other answer.
>>>
>>>There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
>>>be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
>>>who
>>>does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
>>>is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>>>
>>>Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
>>>very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their
>own
>>>school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
>>>must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised

>>>without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
>>>moral education to re enter public schools.
>>>
>>>Which set of morals?
>>>
>>>Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>>>
>>>But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Don,
>>>>
>>>>Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker,
>instead
>>>>of just answering.
>>>>
>>>>Chuck
>>>>
>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>TCB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>>>>conversation is not going away.
>>>>>
>>>>>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>>>>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>>>
>>>>>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>>After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>>>
>>>>>Again, have anything to offer?
>>>>>
>>>>>DC
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94711 is a reply to message #94706] Tue, 15 January 2008 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rick is currently offline  rick   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
Senior Member
at least Jake has parents who care enough to ask if this is really the
right or only choice...hats off to you both.

On 16 Jan 2008 00:58:19 +1000, "Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net>
wrote:

>
>This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
>old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
>he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
>deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
>(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
>go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
>the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
>on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
>addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
>predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
>we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
>another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
>was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
>do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
>school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
>qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
>the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
>isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
>has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
>has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
>school.
>
>Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
>Gantt
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>work
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>us
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>big
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94714 is a reply to message #94710] Tue, 15 January 2008 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:

>So, Don, you're doing just what Dawkins says shouldn't be done.

Thank God...

> He says 'I
>like singing Christmas carols' and you take that to mean 'I believe in a
>common set of Christian values' where in fact he argues extensively, and
>repeatedly, that Christian values as represented in scripture and the actions
>of fundamentalist Christians are anathema to him.


It wasn't about Christian values, though they are certainly derived from
Christianity; it was about common, shared values of how others should
be treated and some basic virtues he clearly holds in common.

I thought you could make the mental connection there. Sorry.

DC
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94715 is a reply to message #94709] Tue, 15 January 2008 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Well, you still didn't answer my question, so I guess that's that.

I rejected your premise, which you finally divulged, that it is impossible
to find common ground. I showed you where common ground is found
by people every day, and I described the process by which Americans
choose school goals and curricula. The answer is we get to choose, and
will do so.

You didn't like the answer. Oh well...


DC
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94716 is a reply to message #94706] Tue, 15 January 2008 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Gantt,

I too want to praise you and your wife's wonderful dedication to your
son and his future. He's a lucky guy.

DC
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94724 is a reply to message #94706] Tue, 15 January 2008 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gantt Kushner is currently offline  Gantt Kushner   
Messages: 545
Registered: June 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, ...
Senior Member

I've been reading a bit about The Sudbury Valley School. It's interesting
stuff:

http://books.google.com/books?id=es2nOuZE0rAC&dq=daniel+ greenberg+sudberry+valley&pg=PP1&ots=TkGUQdxgDF& sig=KLBWjwcLwbKThsuAWg8rjLi5z4c&hl=en&prev=http://ww w.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=daniel +greenberg+sudberry+valley&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa= X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail# PPA2,M1

I'm sure some of you will have opinions!

Gantt

"Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10
year
>old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
>he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
>deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
>(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
>go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
>the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is
he
>on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
>addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
>predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
>we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
>another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her
response
>was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your
glasses,
>do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
>school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
>qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
>the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
>isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
>has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that
he
>has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his
new
>school.
>
>Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
>Gantt
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has

>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases
to
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>work
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
just
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>us
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in

>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>big
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8

>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if

>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot
to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges
in
>a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's

>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>


Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94726 is a reply to message #94700] Tue, 15 January 2008 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deej [5] is currently offline  Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
OK!! OK!!!...I was just sayin' ;o), and actually I do agree with this (your)
post.


"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>In the case of selecting school standards it is essentially a democracy
>of the engaged. (that then has to play political football with the
>unengaged) In other words, the more you get involved the more say
>you have.
>
>Over the last few years, I have been involved in a couple of local committees
>both city and county, and two things have impressed me:
>
>It's actually quite easy to get involved and have your voice heard. (That
>
>doesn't mean anyone is listening of course...)
>
>Those people serving in these roles tend to be good folks and not
>ideologues.
>
>My point? Just as with school Science standards (and I am against the

>mandated teaching of either creationism or ID) those with a burden on
>the issue hold the conversation. There WILL be a conversation however,
>especially on the teaching of virtue to young people. Then, some
>consensus is formed, that hopefully will not upset either the militant
>secularists, nor the conservative theists too much (though neither
>side will get what they really want) and this is presented to the public
>and made into policy. Then the activists try to get "the bums" who
>passed this garbage all recalled and the policy nullified. They may succeed.
>If they do not, the policy stands. The one group that gets well and truly
>steamrollered are those who think the whole project is impossible.
>
>It's not. Consensus is achievable.
>
>And anyone who doesn't think that we have a real problem in
>our public schools is in deep denial.
>
>DC
>
>
>
>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>>>off,
>>
>>errrrr..........just one small point. This country is not a democracy and
>>never has been. It is a representative republic with a bicameral legislature
>>which was specifically created to protect minority rights from the tyranny
>>majority rule, which is the essence of the definition of democracy. In
this
>>country, we do employ a democratic "method" wherein the those who are legally
>>entitled to vote (the electorate) choose legislators who are, in turn,
subject
>>to the rules as set out in the constitution and interpreted by the courts.
>>
>>
>>Just a small point........but perhaps important to some degree.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>OK..now I'm gonna put on my flame suit and cover up.
>>
>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94739 is a reply to message #94704] Tue, 15 January 2008 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic
improvement and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly
rejected. It wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want
to know about cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying
to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take
Hubbard long to see where they were really coming from.

He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
the public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really
want to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and
electric shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets
much better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out
of a psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.

On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.

By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline
in the school systems.

Sarah wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
> since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
> assigned to the antisocial personality.
>
> I think it works like this:
>
> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
> even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less work
> that way.
>
> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
> people being their usual crazy selves.
>
> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
> the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
> kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted us
> to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
> different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
> because they can't figure how to teach him.
>
> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the big
> faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
> work.
>
> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
> "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
> decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
> Can you confront that possibility?
>
> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
> (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
> persuasive or helpful.
>
> Peace,
>
> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done by
>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>
>> Confront it.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are
>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>
>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>> story.
>>>
>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm
>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>
>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>>>> big way.
>>>>
>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>
>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>
>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94741 is a reply to message #94706] Tue, 15 January 2008 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
Wow, trying to make drugging a child seem as normal and helpful as
wearing glasses. That's a new low.

Gantt Kushner wrote:
> This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
> old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
> he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
> deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
> (and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
> go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
> the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
> on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
> addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
> predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
> we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
> another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
> was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
> do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
> school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
> qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
> the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
> isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
> has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
> has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
> school.
>
> Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
> Gantt
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>> since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>> assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>> even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
> work
>> that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>> people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>> the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>> kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
> us
>> to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>> different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>> because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
> big
>> faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>> work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>> "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>> decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>> Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>> (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>> persuasive or helpful.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
> by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
> are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
> I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
> to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
> a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
> on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
> or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
> rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
> be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
> of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
> is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
> non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94747 is a reply to message #94739] Tue, 15 January 2008 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sarah is currently offline  Sarah   UNITED STATES
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
Senior Member
Actually, I did not name "psychiatry as the cause of the decline in the
school system," though you understandably heard it that way. I said, in
response to Don's comment about self-esteem vs achievement, that
"psychologists pretending to know something decided that discipline and
competion were harmful to children's mental health." Not an indictment of
the entire subject of psychology, just a group of individual psychologists
with some half-baked theories about children's education which unfortunately
had some influence on our schools.

I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written three
so far:
I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
Spanking the Child Within
Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People

Could change your life. :)

S



"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478d2d91$1@linux...
> Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
> them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
> of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic improvement
> and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly rejected. It
> wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want to know about
> cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying to suppress
> Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take Hubbard long to see
> where they were really coming from.
>
> He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with the
> public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really want
> to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and electric
> shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets much
> better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out of a
> psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.
>
> On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
> truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
>
> By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline in
> the school systems.
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't
>> either, since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr
>> Hubbard has assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes
>> they even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>> work that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
>> just people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better
>> include the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to
>> drug their kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The
>> school wanted us to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual
>> people who learn in different ways and at different rates, and I'm not
>> going to drug him just because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>> big faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle
>> at work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry
>> became "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS,
>> this decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about
>> psychs? Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on
>> children (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just
>> not at all persuasive or helpful.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>>> by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>>>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . .
>>>> . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the teaching
>>>>> colleges in a big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>>>>> or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>>>>> rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and
>>>>> behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>>> Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>>>>>> non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah"
>>>>>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94748 is a reply to message #94739] Tue, 15 January 2008 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom is currently offline  Tom
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2008
Junior Member
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Psychiatry has been trying
>to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take
>Hubbard long to see where they were really coming from.

I think they're coming from the standpoint of "space aliens?
Really?" I mean, Bill - how can one say this without offending
you, but come on, the guy built his own religion around an
unsold movie script. He was a science fiction writer & he
wrote a sci-fi story & turned it into a business that made him
hella more money than any series of movie deals could've gotten
him.


>He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
>the public ever since.

"Journey to Ixtlan" was a runaway bestseller too, would you
yourself advocate the particular religious experiences outlined
in that book?


>On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling

>truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.

Lots of people of varying faiths can make similar claims, but it
doesn't mean they're right, either. If it works for you,
good for you, just don't try & pass it off as though it's the only thing
that works. If a catholic did that here, they'd get
lambasted.

Tom
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94749 is a reply to message #94748] Tue, 15 January 2008 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Travolta is currently offline  John Travolta
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2008
Junior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

---=_linux478d6237
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!

YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!



---=_linux478d6237
Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="070311_cruise_vsml_8p.widec.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="070311_cruise_vsml_8p.widec.jpg"
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---=_linux478d6237--
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94750 is a reply to message #94747] Tue, 15 January 2008 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aaron Allen is currently offline  Aaron Allen   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Stephen Covey is fantastic.. I'll definitely recommend the 7 habits.
Life altering and eye opening doesn't adequately cover it, but it's the
closest I can get in text.

AA


"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:478d5ccf@linux...
> Actually, I did not name "psychiatry as the cause of the decline in the
> school system," though you understandably heard it that way. I said, in
> response to Don's comment about self-esteem vs achievement, that
> "psychologists pretending to know something decided that discipline and
> competion were harmful to children's mental health." Not an indictment of
> the entire subject of psychology, just a group of individual psychologists
> with some half-baked theories about children's education which
> unfortunately had some influence on our schools.
>
> I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written
> three so far:
> I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
> Spanking the Child Within
> Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People
>
> Could change your life. :)
>
> S
>
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
> news:478d2d91$1@linux...
>> Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
>> them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
>> of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic
>> improvement and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly
>> rejected. It wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want
>> to know about cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying
>> to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take Hubbard
>> long to see where they were really coming from.
>>
>> He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
>> the public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really
>> want to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and
>> electric shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets
>> much better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out
>> of a psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.
>>
>> On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
>> truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
>>
>> By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline
>> in the school systems.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't
>>> either, since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr
>>> Hubbard has assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>>
>>> I think it works like this:
>>>
>>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases
>>> to market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes
>>> they even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>>> work that way.
>>>
>>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
>>> just people being their usual crazy selves.
>>>
>>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better
>>> include the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to
>>> drug their kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The
>>> school wanted us to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual
>>> people who learn in different ways and at different rates, and I'm not
>>> going to drug him just because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>>
>>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>>> big faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient
>>> triangle at work.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry
>>> became "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS,
>>> this decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings
>>> about psychs? Can you confront that possibility?
>>>
>>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on
>>> children (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just
>>> not at all persuasive or helpful.
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478b7089@linux...
>>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and
>>>> laugh and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are
>>>> not done by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for
>>>> drugging 8 million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and
>>>> very powerful narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>>
>>>> Confront it.
>>>>
>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>>>>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . .
>>>>> . hmmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>>>> story.
>>>>>
>>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the teaching
>>>>>> colleges in a big way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>>>>>> on Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how
>>>>>> much or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it)
>>>>>> and the rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think
>>>>>> and behave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>>>> Leary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>>>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between
>>>>>> right and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being
>>>>>> blurred it is no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50
>>>>>> years had that as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>>>>>>> non
>>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah"
>>>>>>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know
>>>>>>>> something decided that discipline and competion were harmful to
>>>>>>>> children's mental health.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94752 is a reply to message #94749] Tue, 15 January 2008 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom is currently offline  Tom
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2008
Junior Member
No, i'm not Tom Cruise - i'm just posting anonymously because
I'm afraid of the Scientology death squads coming to get me
since i'm disagreeing with Bill.

Tom (or not Tom)


"John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>
>YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>
>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94753 is a reply to message #94747] Tue, 15 January 2008 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deej [5] is currently offline  Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written three

>so far:
> I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
> Spanking the Child Within
> Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People
>
>Could change your life. :)
>
>S

(sigh)......I'm gonna have to buy a new keyoard....grape juice this time......it
was worth it. thanks.

;o)
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94754 is a reply to message #94749] Tue, 15 January 2008 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deej [5] is currently offline  Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
"John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>
>YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>
I really think this is incredibly disrespectful of someone who I happen
to like a whole lot so I've gotta' speak up here. whoever you are, if you've
got some problem with someone's belief system and are compelled to slag them,
then at least have the integrity to show your own face as well.

Not cool.
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94755 is a reply to message #94753] Tue, 15 January 2008 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sarah is currently offline  Sarah   UNITED STATES
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
Senior Member
Hey, let's go on People's Court! You could sue me for mental anguish and
the price of a new keyboard.

'Course it's ten minutes to Wapner,

S

"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote in message news:478da4a6$1@linux...
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written
>>three
>
>>so far:
>> I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
>> Spanking the Child Within
>> Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People
>>
>>Could change your life. :)
>>
>>S
>
> (sigh)......I'm gonna have to buy a new keyoard....grape juice this
> time......it
> was worth it. thanks.
>
> ;o)
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94757 is a reply to message #94754] Wed, 16 January 2008 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom is currently offline  Tom
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2008
Junior Member
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>"John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>>
>>YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>>
> I really think this is incredibly disrespectful of someone who I happen
>to like a whole lot so I've gotta' speak up here. whoever you are, if you've
>got some problem with someone's belief system and are compelled to slag
them,
>then at least have the integrity to show your own face as well.

I happen to like & respect Bill a lot, as a person, and a
musician, and I am not trying to slag him - only disagree with
him. Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
this forum, ever.

Hopefully they can't get my ISP info from these posts,
otherwise i'm screwed.

Tom (Cruise/not Cruise)

>Not cool.

It's cool, really. Someone's got to do it.
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94761 is a reply to message #94757] Wed, 16 January 2008 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
Here's an interesting video about psychiatry:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/976/psychiatry_no_sci ence_no_cures.html

Tom wrote:
> "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>> "John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>>>
>>> YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>>>
>> I really think this is incredibly disrespectful of someone who I happen
>> to like a whole lot so I've gotta' speak up here. whoever you are, if you've
>> got some problem with someone's belief system and are compelled to slag
> them,
>> then at least have the integrity to show your own face as well.
>
> I happen to like & respect Bill a lot, as a person, and a
> musician, and I am not trying to slag him - only disagree with
> him. Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
> public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
> the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
> least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
> this forum, ever.
>
> Hopefully they can't get my ISP info from these posts,
> otherwise i'm screwed.
>
> Tom (Cruise/not Cruise)
>
>> Not cool.
>
> It's cool, really. Someone's got to do it.
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94766 is a reply to message #94757] Wed, 16 January 2008 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dc[3] is currently offline  dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
"Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
>public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
>the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
>least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
>this forum, ever.

Bollocks.

I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.

He handles it well.

DC
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94772 is a reply to message #94766] Wed, 16 January 2008 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jamie K is currently offline  Jamie K   UNITED STATES
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
Senior Member
I've disagreed with Bill before. Including in this very thread. He was
gracious about it.

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com


DC wrote:
> "Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>> Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
>> public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
>> the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
>> least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
>> this forum, ever.
>
> Bollocks.
>
> I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.
>
> He handles it well.
>
> DC
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94807 is a reply to message #94772] Thu, 17 January 2008 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sarah is currently offline  Sarah   UNITED STATES
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
Senior Member
Yeah, what Jamie and Don said . . . I've played in bands with a couple of
Scientologists, and had a brief relationship with one, and had sometimes
heated arguments about it with all of them (it is a religion, after all, and
you know how I am). The worst thing that ever happened persistent attempts
to get me to come down for some event or another. But they were all very
nice, very talented people, with excellent senses of humor.

So there. Don't be paranoid.

S



Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:478e468d@linux...
>
> I've disagreed with Bill before. Including in this very thread. He was
> gracious about it.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DC wrote:
>> "Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>>> Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in public without
>>> their death squads hunting you down, so this is the only reason i am
>>> posting anonymously, which is probably at least part of the reason NO
>>> ONE has ever disagreed with him on this forum, ever.
>>
>> Bollocks.
>>
>> I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.
>>
>> He handles it well.
>>
>> DC
>>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94830 is a reply to message #94807] Thu, 17 January 2008 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill L is currently offline  Bill L   UNITED STATES
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
Senior Member
Hey, thanks for the backup y'all. I actually have not even read the
posts you were replying to. I've been swamped with work, and frankly,
when I saw that they were written by Tom Cruise and John Travolta, I
already knew what they wrote 'cause I saw them last night at the death
squad meeting.

Anywho, did anyone watch this vid? It's a hoot.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/976/psychiatry_no_sci ence_no_cures.html


Sarah wrote:
> Yeah, what Jamie and Don said . . . I've played in bands with a couple of
> Scientologists, and had a brief relationship with one, and had sometimes
> heated arguments about it with all of them (it is a religion, after all, and
> you know how I am). The worst thing that ever happened persistent attempts
> to get me to come down for some event or another. But they were all very
> nice, very talented people, with excellent senses of humor.
>
> So there. Don't be paranoid.
>
> S
>
>
>
> Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:478e468d@linux...
>> I've disagreed with Bill before. Including in this very thread. He was
>> gracious about it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> "Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>>>> Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in public without
>>>> their death squads hunting you down, so this is the only reason i am
>>>> posting anonymously, which is probably at least part of the reason NO
>>>> ONE has ever disagreed with him on this forum, ever.
>>> Bollocks.
>>>
>>> I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.
>>>
>>> He handles it well.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>
>
Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94878 is a reply to message #94706] Fri, 18 January 2008 13:40 Go to previous message
JeffH is currently offline  JeffH   UNITED STATES
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2007
Location: Wamic, OR
Senior Member
Gantt,

We've been on the same path with our son for three years now. His LD
issues stem from brain damage due to chemotherapy at the age of 2. The
school system and the medical community basically said "get him on
drugs" and "sign him up for a group home. Oversimplified, but accurate.

He has now been home schooled for three years. He has defied the
responses we received when we tried to get him help in the public
system. A few areas:

The school said he'd never be able to accomplish math longhand ...use a
calculator. He is now adding and substracting to the thousands. He has
most of his multiplication fact down through ten.

The school he would never be able to write legibly. He is doing so in
both block lettering and cursive.

The school was unsure if he'd be able to read at all. He is now reading
books close to grade level. His reading vocabulary is definitely beyond
his comprehension vocab, but that gives us something to work on!

It takes time and sacrifice, but the results have been beyond
expectation in our case. Our greatest challenge is still working on
interpersonal growth with peers, as it is an area of diability as well
cobined with the lack of a classroom environment.

Be encouraged Gantt.

Jeff




> This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
> old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
> he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
> deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
> (and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
> go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
> the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
> on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
> addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
> predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
> we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
> another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
> was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
> do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
> school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
> qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
> the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
> isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
> has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
> has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
> school.
>
> Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
> Gantt
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>
> work
>
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>
> us
>
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>
> big
>
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>
>>>Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>
>>>and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>
> by
>
>>>accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>>million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>
>>>narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>>Confront it.
>>>
>>>Sarah wrote:
>>>
>>>>Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>
>>>>Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>
> are
>
>>>>not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>>duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>>I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>>observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>>generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>>there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>
>>>>clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>
>>>>story.
>>>>
>>>>But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>
> I'm
>
>>>>not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>
>>>>at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>>I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>>S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>
>>>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>
> to
>
>>>>>influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>
> a
>
>>>>>big way.
>>>>>
>>>>>In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>
>>>>>Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>>Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>
>>>>>between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>
>>>>>children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>
>>>>>mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>
> on
>
>>>>>Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>
> or
>
>>>>>how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>
> rest
>
>>>>>of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>>Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>>coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>>When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>>influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>
> be
>
>>>>>regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>
> of
>
>>>>>being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>
>>>>>into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>>illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>>When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>
>>>>>and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>
> is
>
>>>>>no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>
>>>>>as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>>We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>
>>>>>problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>
>>>>>are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>
> non
>
>>>>>>educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>
>>>>>>>decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>>mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>
Previous Topic: NAMM: New Spectrasonics Omnisphere
Next Topic: Funny .......
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Dec 06 17:03:42 PST 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03182 seconds