Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Modern Rock - the next generation?
| Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89265] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 14:14  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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Maybe we're getting past the post-punk phase... I'm starting to
hear some evidence of melody & musicianship in a few scattered
places.
Go to this link & check out the cut called "Godspeed":
http://www.myspace.com/anberlin
Now THAT's the way rock should be played (and sung), innit?
"Adelaide" is not too bad, either.
Neil
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89269 is a reply to message #89268] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 15:30  |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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No biggie, Deej - sometimes I think I'm the only 40-plus
person who likes any of this new stuff. Perhaps the
dynamics thing doesn't bother me as much since I was using an
Aphex Studio Dominator on stuff way back in the day, so I can
appreciate judicious use of "dynamics funneling", as it were -
I do think this stuff has a bit more of it than I like,
however.... Ted Jensen mastered it, though, so what do you
expect?
The thing that bothers me about excessive use of it is that you
then start to lose some clarity (and I personally always back
off a bit once I get into that zone - me, I'd rather have
it "competitive & clear" rather than "the loudest thing
anyone's heard to date" lol). I'm sill looking for ways to get
that extra couple of db's though, no doubt - I'm starting to
become convinced that part of it entails going back out into
analog, because I've yet to find a digi-limiter, even the one
in Ozone, that won't start snarling at you with some raspiness
after a certain point. "Godspeed" definitely has some dirt I
don't like, and I've listened to it in the car, as well as on
my home stereo (bought the CD today), and can hear it there on
all systems... it's a great tune, sung & performed & arranged
REALLY well, though, and I would love to have been able to hear
Mike Shipley's mix prior to mastering.
I guess I figure that the "Loudness Genie" ain't ever going
back in the bottle now that he's been let out, so I can either
just listen to my old Steely Dan CD's if I want sonic
perfection, or I can get a dose of good new stuff every now &
then & try to ignore the dirt. Personally, if they've got it
loud AND articulate, it's OK with me.
Neil
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>Neil,
>
>I'm not meaning to slag your preference in music here. The stuff that I
have
>heard you produce sounds much better to my ears than this does Perhaps
(if
>you produced this) it has to do with the band wanting everything to be
>louner than everything else......I dunno,........maybe I'm having a bad
day
>or something. I'm not anti-rock/prog-rock/metal. I guess I'm just fed up
>with the "wall of noise" genre. It would be sooooo nice to be able to listen
>to rock with some dynamics.....I mean.......WTF is a volume knob for these
>days anyway?
>
>
>"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
>news:46db2b85@linux...
>> Neil,
>>
>> I really like this stuff as poopsed to a lot of what I hear these days,
>> but from my (admiteddly) curmudgeonly POV, this stuff sounds dynamically
>> dead in the water. the drums sound like a throbbing amorphous mass of
>> bubbling mud. It's so fatiguing after about 20 seconds that I doubt I
>> could endure more than about 10 minutes of this stuff without slitting
my
>> wrists.
>>
>> Curmudgeon'esque regards,
>> ;o)
>> Deej
>>
>> "Neil" <OUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:46db27c1$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Maybe we're getting past the post-punk phase... I'm starting to
>>> hear some evidence of melody & musicianship in a few scattered
>>> places.
>>>
>>> Go to this link & check out the cut called "Godspeed":
>>>
>>> http://www.myspace.com/anberlin
>>>
>>> Now THAT's the way rock should be played (and sung), innit?
>>>
>>> "Adelaide" is not too bad, either.
>>>
>>> Neil
>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89270 is a reply to message #89266] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 20:50 |
neil[1]
Messages: 164
Registered: October 2006
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Senior Member |
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"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>the drums sound like a throbbing amorphous mass of bubbling
mud.
FWIW (after listening to this song for about the 12th time
today lol!) I think the drums pretty much kick ass - the snare
has some real throatiness to it... quite different from a lot
of the "parchment snares" you hear nowadays
ifyaknowwhatimsayin'; the toms are thunderous, and the kick has
some really nice body to it - not just a "click" - the only
thing I don't like about the kick is that it's got a little too
much of something in between 200 & 300, so it's hitting me
right in the throat a bit too much. I think the "amorphous
mass" you refer to is probably the fact that in this genre the
guys NEVER lay off the brass - they use the crash cymbal like
your favorite 70's & 80's drummers would use a hi-hat, so yeah
there's a lotta noise there.
Some other stuff I'm diggin', production-wise:
* The portion of the 1st verse between :16 & :27 has a subtle
little conga-sounding thing going on that plays off the hi-hat.
You never hear this sound again in the song, it's just in that
one section, and that's it.
* The guitar noise in the right channel from about :49 to
about :51 seconds sounds like it's hard-gated using the vocal
whisper thang as a trigger input. Kinda cool.
* In the 2nd verse, from 1:09 to 1:19, the hats play it
straight & just drive it, as opposed to the heavily-accented
stuff that they were doing in the first half of the first
verse, however, in the 2nd half of the 2nd verse, they reverse
it & go for the accents, AND I can SWEAR they're using a delay
on it in a few places... listen closely & you'll hear what I'm
talking about - how it falls off and how in one short section
it seems to pan a little bit.
* The guitar solo that starts at 1:57 is doubled - pretty damn
good work!
:)
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89272 is a reply to message #89265] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 20:57 |
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Nice..
I love to vibe. Like a good throw back sound with(might I add) an real guitar
solo to boot!
Good looking out Neil.
"Neil" <OUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>Maybe we're getting past the post-punk phase... I'm starting to
>hear some evidence of melody & musicianship in a few scattered
>places.
>
>Go to this link & check out the cut called "Godspeed":
>
>http://www.myspace.com/anberlin
>
>Now THAT's the way rock should be played (and sung), innit?
>
>"Adelaide" is not too bad, either.
>
>Neil
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89275 is a reply to message #89269] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 21:13 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Ok, It seems that I'm in the minority. I love the mix. I love the tight compression..That's
how it's supposed to sound. That's the sound of a "good Rock " mix today.
Neil, I like your Rock mixes a lot, but you can get that sound you want by
stemming your mix out into a analog mixer. Yes, I kow you wanted to avoid
all of that. But, I've come full circle on this. Liek Rock, Good R & B, Gospel/Hip
Hop has to be warm and Phatt to sound it's best.
For Me: Hard to do (ITB) with Nuendo/SX..Easy to do with Paris..Best with
(any DAW) stemmed out to a Analog Mixer. Let's face face it, for Rock and
R&B, third order distortion (harmonics) are in order. Somehow Paris and Apogee
adds the secord and third order (Harmonics).. Prism, Myteks,RME and the like
don't and that's cool for Post, Film/video work..
But, Rock, R&B and the liek needs to be phatt ..Needs some color, needs some
Distortion..
"Neil" <OIOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>No biggie, Deej - sometimes I think I'm the only 40-plus
>person who likes any of this new stuff. Perhaps the
>dynamics thing doesn't bother me as much since I was using an
>Aphex Studio Dominator on stuff way back in the day, so I can
>appreciate judicious use of "dynamics funneling", as it were -
>I do think this stuff has a bit more of it than I like,
>however.... Ted Jensen mastered it, though, so what do you
>expect?
>The thing that bothers me about excessive use of it is that you
>then start to lose some clarity (and I personally always back
>off a bit once I get into that zone - me, I'd rather have
>it "competitive & clear" rather than "the loudest thing
>anyone's heard to date" lol). I'm sill looking for ways to get
>that extra couple of db's though, no doubt - I'm starting to
>become convinced that part of it entails going back out into
>analog, because I've yet to find a digi-limiter, even the one
>in Ozone, that won't start snarling at you with some raspiness
>after a certain point. "Godspeed" definitely has some dirt I
>don't like, and I've listened to it in the car, as well as on
>my home stereo (bought the CD today), and can hear it there on
>all systems... it's a great tune, sung & performed & arranged
>REALLY well, though, and I would love to have been able to hear
>Mike Shipley's mix prior to mastering.
>
>I guess I figure that the "Loudness Genie" ain't ever going
>back in the bottle now that he's been let out, so I can either
>just listen to my old Steely Dan CD's if I want sonic
>perfection, or I can get a dose of good new stuff every now &
>then & try to ignore the dirt. Personally, if they've got it
>loud AND articulate, it's OK with me.
>
>Neil
>
>
>"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>Neil,
>>
>>I'm not meaning to slag your preference in music here. The stuff that I
>have
>>heard you produce sounds much better to my ears than this does Perhaps
>(if
>>you produced this) it has to do with the band wanting everything to be
>>louner than everything else......I dunno,........maybe I'm having a bad
>day
>>or something. I'm not anti-rock/prog-rock/metal. I guess I'm just fed
up
>
>>with the "wall of noise" genre. It would be sooooo nice to be able to listen
>
>>to rock with some dynamics.....I mean.......WTF is a volume knob for these
>
>>days anyway?
>>
>>
>>"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote in message
>>news:46db2b85@linux...
>>> Neil,
>>>
>>> I really like this stuff as poopsed to a lot of what I hear these days,
>
>>> but from my (admiteddly) curmudgeonly POV, this stuff sounds dynamically
>
>>> dead in the water. the drums sound like a throbbing amorphous mass of
>
>>> bubbling mud. It's so fatiguing after about 20 seconds that I doubt I
>
>>> could endure more than about 10 minutes of this stuff without slitting
>my
>>> wrists.
>>>
>>> Curmudgeon'esque regards,
>>> ;o)
>>> Deej
>>>
>>> "Neil" <OUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:46db27c1$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe we're getting past the post-punk phase... I'm starting to
>>>> hear some evidence of melody & musicianship in a few scattered
>>>> places.
>>>>
>>>> Go to this link & check out the cut called "Godspeed":
>>>>
>>>> http://www.myspace.com/anberlin
>>>>
>>>> Now THAT's the way rock should be played (and sung), innit?
>>>>
>>>> "Adelaide" is not too bad, either.
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89280 is a reply to message #89275] |
Sun, 02 September 2007 23:58 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Ok, It seems that I'm in the minority. I love the mix. I love the tight
compression..That's
>how it's supposed to sound. That's the sound of a "good Rock " mix today.
>
>Neil, I like your Rock mixes a lot, but you can get that sound you want
by
>stemming your mix out into a analog mixer. Yes, I kow you wanted to avoid
>all of that.
Thanks, but I can get a mix like this one simply by slamming
down the limiter threshhold a few more db's in Ozone - actually
I like the mix overall, it's just the dirt on the mids & above
that I don't like - to me it's not a "good" kind of
distortion, it's a raspy kind of distortion, and it has nothing
to do with fatness or width or anything like that - in fact,
IMO it takes away from that. Quite the opposite of what
stemming can add.
>For Me: Hard to do (ITB) with Nuendo/SX..Easy to do with Paris..Best with
>(any DAW) stemmed out to a Analog Mixer. Let's face face it, for Rock and
>R&B, third order distortion (harmonics) are in order. Somehow Paris and
Apogee
>adds the secord and third order (Harmonics).. Prism, Myteks,RME and the
like
>don't and that's cool for Post, Film/video work.
FYI, Prisms are some of the convertors that mastering guys are
using, along with the Lavry Gold's, to slam the shit out of in
order to get that extra couple of db's... I've exchanged a
series of e-mails with one of the tech support guys at Lavry
and he says that the Golds have a certain kind of soft-
saturation circuitry that the Blue series doesn't have, and it
gives them that characteristic. Apparently some of the Prisms
have a similar kinda thing goin' on.
>But, Rock, R&B and the liek needs to be phatt ..Needs some
>color, needs some Distortion.
Color, yes, some even-numbered harmonics, perhaps, but i'm still
opting for that clarity & dimension up top - to me that's what
gives it the sense of space/air/whatever you want to call
it...you start dirtying that up & you lose that. I'll find a
way to get there... maybe next I'll try 2 or 3 compressors in
series, analog ones across the 2-buss; gentle on the first,
then hitting each one after that a little bit harder so that
you're not having to clamp down the dynamics so much in each
stage - maybe that'll get me there with no detectable
distortion or loss of depth/space. I really only need a couple
more db's RMS to be 100% competitive in terms of perceived
volume levels with something like the tune we're talking about,
and that's a fully-mastered cut! If I can do that & still
maintain the sonic integrity of what I'm after, then I think
i'll be able to deliver a product that's going to be damn hard
to find anywhere else.
Neil
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89283 is a reply to message #89280] |
Mon, 03 September 2007 01:18 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I see where you are going,sonically.
Have you seen these two products?
http://www.ursplugins.com
http://www.anamodaudio.com This may add too much color and take away some
top end ..Mybe not..
Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>Ok, It seems that I'm in the minority. I love the mix. I love the tight
>compression..That's
>>how it's supposed to sound. That's the sound of a "good Rock " mix today.
>>
>>Neil, I like your Rock mixes a lot, but you can get that sound you want
>by
>>stemming your mix out into a analog mixer. Yes, I kow you wanted to avoid
>>all of that.
>
>Thanks, but I can get a mix like this one simply by slamming
>down the limiter threshhold a few more db's in Ozone - actually
>I like the mix overall, it's just the dirt on the mids & above
>that I don't like - to me it's not a "good" kind of
>distortion, it's a raspy kind of distortion, and it has nothing
>to do with fatness or width or anything like that - in fact,
>IMO it takes away from that. Quite the opposite of what
>stemming can add.
>
>>For Me: Hard to do (ITB) with Nuendo/SX..Easy to do with Paris..Best with
>>(any DAW) stemmed out to a Analog Mixer. Let's face face it, for Rock and
>>R&B, third order distortion (harmonics) are in order. Somehow Paris and
>Apogee
>>adds the secord and third order (Harmonics).. Prism, Myteks,RME and the
>like
>>don't and that's cool for Post, Film/video work.
>
>FYI, Prisms are some of the convertors that mastering guys are
>using, along with the Lavry Gold's, to slam the shit out of in
>order to get that extra couple of db's... I've exchanged a
>series of e-mails with one of the tech support guys at Lavry
>and he says that the Golds have a certain kind of soft-
>saturation circuitry that the Blue series doesn't have, and it
>gives them that characteristic. Apparently some of the Prisms
>have a similar kinda thing goin' on.
>
>>But, Rock, R&B and the liek needs to be phatt ..Needs some
>>color, needs some Distortion.
>
>Color, yes, some even-numbered harmonics, perhaps, but i'm still
>opting for that clarity & dimension up top - to me that's what
>gives it the sense of space/air/whatever you want to call
>it...you start dirtying that up & you lose that. I'll find a
>way to get there... maybe next I'll try 2 or 3 compressors in
>series, analog ones across the 2-buss; gentle on the first,
>then hitting each one after that a little bit harder so that
>you're not having to clamp down the dynamics so much in each
>stage - maybe that'll get me there with no detectable
>distortion or loss of depth/space. I really only need a couple
>more db's RMS to be 100% competitive in terms of perceived
>volume levels with something like the tune we're talking about,
>and that's a fully-mastered cut! If I can do that & still
>maintain the sonic integrity of what I'm after, then I think
>i'll be able to deliver a product that's going to be damn hard
>to find anywhere else.
>
>Neil
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89284 is a reply to message #89265] |
Mon, 03 September 2007 01:28 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
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"That's not music, that's just a lot of noise." - my mom, 1964
OK, I agree, compositionally and musician-ally, all these songs are
interesting. But soundwise, I'm afraid I'm in Deej's curmudgeon club. And
it's not that I don't like intense rock performances, I do. But to me, this
sound is so slick and smooth and lacking dynamics and tonal variety that the
intensity is buried in a relentless buzzy blur. I couldn't listen to a
whole record of this stuff.
I like the sound of guitar amps turned up really loud, and I think when you
distort guitars to the point of a complete buzz, you lose that character.
It just sounds electronic.
But it's all a matter of taste, and I'm sure this is an excellent example of
this particular sonic formula. It's just not a formula that appeals to me.
Variety is the spice of music.
S
Neil" <OUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:46db27c1$1@linux...
>
> Maybe we're getting past the post-punk phase... I'm starting to
> hear some evidence of melody & musicianship in a few scattered
> places.
>
> Go to this link & check out the cut called "Godspeed":
>
> http://www.myspace.com/anberlin
>
> Now THAT's the way rock should be played (and sung), innit?
>
> "Adelaide" is not too bad, either.
>
> Neil
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| Re: Modern Rock - the next generation? [message #89297 is a reply to message #89283] |
Mon, 03 September 2007 17:54 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Lamont - I'm familiar with (though haven't used) the URS
stuff. I don't think the SSL comp is what I'm after... I know
you like that one, you said, but I've used 'em before (the
actual console versions) and I've never felt it to be very
useful beyond the 4-to-1 at fairly gentle threshhold settings.
Yeah they sound really good in that range, but it's not the
sound I'm after. The other thing (the tape sim) i've not seen
before - have you tried it yet?
I DO think i might be on to something here, though... trying a
new 2-buss setup using Ozone followed by Voxengo's Elephant...
I'm gaining right about 2- 2 1/2 db RMS & PRMS over just the
Ozone settings without adding any perceptible distortion...
i'll post a clip once I play with this a bit more if I think I
might have something that's "in the zone". :D
Elephant can process internally at up to four times the
samplerate (or 2x at 88.2k & higher), and I'm thinking that
might be what's enabling it to be cleaner!
Neil
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>I see where you are going,sonically.
>
>Have you seen these two products?
>
>http://www.ursplugins.com
>http://www.anamodaudio.com This may add too much color and take away some
>top end ..Mybe not..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>Ok, It seems that I'm in the minority. I love the mix. I love the tight
>>compression..That's
>>>how it's supposed to sound. That's the sound of a "good Rock " mix today.
>>>
>>>Neil, I like your Rock mixes a lot, but you can get that sound you want
>>by
>>>stemming your mix out into a analog mixer. Yes, I kow you wanted to avoid
>>>all of that.
>>
>>Thanks, but I can get a mix like this one simply by slamming
>>down the limiter threshhold a few more db's in Ozone - actually
>>I like the mix overall, it's just the dirt on the mids & above
>>that I don't like - to me it's not a "good" kind of
>>distortion, it's a raspy kind of distortion, and it has nothing
>>to do with fatness or width or anything like that - in fact,
>>IMO it takes away from that. Quite the opposite of what
>>stemming can add.
>>
>>>For Me: Hard to do (ITB) with Nuendo/SX..Easy to do with Paris..Best with
>>>(any DAW) stemmed out to a Analog Mixer. Let's face face it, for Rock
and
>>>R&B, third order distortion (harmonics) are in order. Somehow Paris and
>>Apogee
>>>adds the secord and third order (Harmonics).. Prism, Myteks,RME and the
>>like
>>>don't and that's cool for Post, Film/video work.
>>
>>FYI, Prisms are some of the convertors that mastering guys are
>>using, along with the Lavry Gold's, to slam the shit out of in
>>order to get that extra couple of db's... I've exchanged a
>>series of e-mails with one of the tech support guys at Lavry
>>and he says that the Golds have a certain kind of soft-
>>saturation circuitry that the Blue series doesn't have, and it
>>gives them that characteristic. Apparently some of the Prisms
>>have a similar kinda thing goin' on.
>>
>>>But, Rock, R&B and the liek needs to be phatt ..Needs some
>>>color, needs some Distortion.
>>
>>Color, yes, some even-numbered harmonics, perhaps, but i'm still
>>opting for that clarity & dimension up top - to me that's what
>>gives it the sense of space/air/whatever you want to call
>>it...you start dirtying that up & you lose that. I'll find a
>>way to get there... maybe next I'll try 2 or 3 compressors in
>>series, analog ones across the 2-buss; gentle on the first,
>>then hitting each one after that a little bit harder so that
>>you're not having to clamp down the dynamics so much in each
>>stage - maybe that'll get me there with no detectable
>>distortion or loss of depth/space. I really only need a couple
>>more db's RMS to be 100% competitive in terms of perceived
>>volume levels with something like the tune we're talking about,
>>and that's a fully-mastered cut! If I can do that & still
>>maintain the sonic integrity of what I'm after, then I think
>>i'll be able to deliver a product that's going to be damn hard
>>to find anywhere else.
>>
>>Neil
>
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