Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94645 is a reply to message #94641] |
Sun, 13 January 2008 10:04   |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
a big way.
In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
between right and wrong.
They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
are our responsibility.
rick wrote:
> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something decided
>> that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental health.
>>
>> S
>>
>>
>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94646 is a reply to message #94645] |
Sun, 13 January 2008 11:35 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>a big way.
There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and the
separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
coming true in our lifetimes:
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."
Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence" is
treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It is a
symptom not a cause.
I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some of
them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
DC
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94652 is a reply to message #94651] |
Sun, 13 January 2008 14:41 |
geo
Messages: 12
Registered: November 2005
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Wiki (v) Jacob Moreno, the father of psychodrama. Moreno envisioned and
advanced with others in the '50, "...a therapeutic society," where human
interactions would be guided by psychological imperatives. Bill L's right
on.
But the teachers I talked to during fieldwork in the 80's, all said schools
went to hell with dresscode demise '64 or so and bussing outside of
neighborhood & local accountabilities around '68. (early results)
Much earlier, my mother had been fired as a Milwaukee Public School
elementary teacher in 1948, for secretly continuing teaching phonic based
reading in class and publicly renouncing whole language as reading
instruction. Powerful interests at stake...no dissention tolerated. It
is/was deeper than most folks realize.
It was known back in the '50s that the results would not be realized during
the proponent's lifetimes. A smart, long, view
g
--
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote in message news:478a81f8$1@linux...
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
> >Deej, when I get some time I will work on that. Which points exactly?
> >
>
> Just some authoritative reference to the fact that this particular agenda
> was actually endorsed at a meeting of the APA. I couldn't find anything at
> all on this on Google or Snopes. Snopes it pretty good about investigating
> stuff like this, and they are very aggressive about debunking
sensationalist
> allegations. This is pretty sensational, to my thinking. Since I find
nothing
> on Snopes about it, either they aren't aware of it (not likely if it has
> been previously the subject of some major flamewar forum topics, which it
> seems likely to be able to create)or they were aware of it and couldn't
debunk
> it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Deej
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94666 is a reply to message #94645] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 01:02 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are not
evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . .
.. ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad generalities.
I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if there's an evil
conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to clue them in. Now,
the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another story.
But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm not
particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks at a
glance doesn't make me bright.
I'm an excellent driver.
S
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478a535f$1@linux...
> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
> big way.
>
> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value Neutral
> Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction between
> right and wrong.
>
> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the mass
> drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on Ritalin
> type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or how well
> children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest of their
> psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>
> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>
> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>
> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right and
> wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is no
> accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that as
> their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>
> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
> are our responsibility.
>
>
> rick wrote:
>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental
>>> health.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94668 is a reply to message #94666] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 01:33 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
all the answers lie within but unfortunately those giving the
directions have forgotten that.
hate to disagree bill but growing up i don't remember the right from
wrong thing being blurred. both my ass and the inability to leave the
house did not suffer from non attention. and there sure as hell
wasn't anything in my room to do went sent there as there is today.
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:02:06 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
wrote:
>Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are not
>evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . .
>. ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>
>I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad generalities.
>I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if there's an evil
>conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to clue them in. Now,
>the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another story.
>
>But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm not
>particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks at a
>glance doesn't make me bright.
>
>I'm an excellent driver.
>
>S
>
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478a535f$1@linux...
>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>> big way.
>>
>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value Neutral
>> Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction between
>> right and wrong.
>>
>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the mass
>> drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on Ritalin
>> type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or how well
>> children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest of their
>> psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>
>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>
>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>
>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right and
>> wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is no
>> accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that as
>> their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>
>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>> are our responsibility.
>>
>>
>> rick wrote:
>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental
>>>> health.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94671 is a reply to message #94666] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 06:09 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
Confront it.
Sarah wrote:
> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are not
> evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . .
> . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>
> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad generalities.
> I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if there's an evil
> conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to clue them in. Now,
> the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another story.
>
> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm not
> particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks at a
> glance doesn't make me bright.
>
> I'm an excellent driver.
>
> S
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478a535f$1@linux...
>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>> big way.
>>
>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value Neutral
>> Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction between
>> right and wrong.
>>
>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the mass
>> drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on Ritalin
>> type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or how well
>> children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest of their
>> psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>
>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>
>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>
>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right and
>> wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is no
>> accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that as
>> their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>
>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>> are our responsibility.
>>
>>
>> rick wrote:
>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental
>>>> health.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94672 is a reply to message #94671] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 07:25 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kids have little choice when adults conspire to do EVIL. For example, I
was subjected to the EVILS of orthodontics! Hauled into a small room
against my will and tortured with small instruments wielded by sadists.
Cleverly painful devices were attached to my teeth and wires were
tightened periodically to keep my teeth in line. Four perfectly good
teeth were yanked out during the multi-year program of abuse. Drugs were
used, but never enough. Even after all that, my teeth never admitted
anything, not even name, rank or serial number.
Granted, now I have straight teeth, but still!
I'm pretty sure the evils of the world can be rightly blamed on
orthodontists. Millions of kids were subjected to this, and also some
adults. It is NO ACCIDENT and VERY EVIL. :^)
Meanwhile I have observed a few psychologists and psychiatrists helping
people straighten out their lives. Not always successfully, there is
much yet to learn. Just as we will someday find better ways to
straighten teeth. But I have seen good things happen with the help of
caring people who seem to be trying to help as best they know how. Some
prescribing drugs, (our knowledge of brain chemistry and psych drugs
still seems to be at a fairly experimental stage, I'll give you that),
and some not.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Bill L wrote:
> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
> by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>
> Confront it.
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . .
>> . hmmm.
>>
>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>> story.
>>
>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>
>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>
>> S
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the teaching
>>> colleges in a big way.
>>>
>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>> between right and wrong.
>>>
>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>>> on Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how
>>> much or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it)
>>> and the rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think
>>> and behave.
>>>
>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>
>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>> reasoning.
>>>
>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between
>>> right and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being
>>> blurred it is no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50
>>> years had that as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>
>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>
>>>
>>> rick wrote:
>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know
>>>>> something decided that discipline and competion were harmful to
>>>>> children's mental health.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94673 is a reply to message #94646] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 09:11 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
So, Don, who decides what morals are taught? And 'me' isn't a fair answer,
though I know that's what you'd prefer.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>
>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>
>>a big way.
>
>There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and the
>
>separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
>
>It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
>
>But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
>foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
>out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
>dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
>decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
>coming true in our lifetimes:
>
>"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."
>
>Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
>decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence"
is
>
>treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
>
>I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
>is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
>and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It is
a
>symptom not a cause.
>
>I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
>lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some of
>them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
>
>DC
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94674 is a reply to message #94673] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 09:23 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Evidently not the atheists....
DC
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>So, Don, who decides what morals are taught? And 'me' isn't a fair answer,
>though I know that's what you'd prefer.
>
>TCB
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>
>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>>
>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>>
>>>a big way.
>>
>>There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and the
>>
>>separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
>>
>>It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
>>
>>But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
>>foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
>>out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
>>dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
>>decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
>>coming true in our lifetimes:
>>
>>"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."
>>
>>Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
>>decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence"
>is
>>
>>treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
>>
>>I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
>>is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
>>and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It is
>a
>>symptom not a cause.
>>
>>I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
>>lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some of
>>them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
>>
>>DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94679 is a reply to message #94674] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 13:25 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Good answer, Don, and a fine defense of your argument that 'morals' and 'value
reasoning' should be part of (publicly funded, with my tax dollars) education.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Evidently not the atheists....
>
>DC
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>So, Don, who decides what morals are taught? And 'me' isn't a fair answer,
>>though I know that's what you'd prefer.
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>
>>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
to
>>>
>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges
in
>>>
>>>>a big way.
>>>
>>>There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and the
>>>
>>>separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
>>>
>>>It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
>>>
>>>But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
>>>foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
>>>out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
>>>dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
>>>decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
>>>coming true in our lifetimes:
>>>
>>>"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to
society."
>>>
>>>Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
>>>decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence"
>>is
>>>
>>>treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
>>>
>>>I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
>>>is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
>>>and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It is
>>a
>>>symptom not a cause.
>>>
>>>I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
>>>lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some of
>>>them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
>>>
>>>DC
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94680 is a reply to message #94679] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 13:31 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
So, you really do have nothing to offer?
Are there no civic virtues to be taught? Or is it true that all morals
must derive from belief in absolutes?
DC
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Good answer, Don, and a fine defense of your argument that 'morals' and
'value
>reasoning' should be part of (publicly funded, with my tax dollars) education.
>
>
>TCB
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Evidently not the atheists....
>>
>>DC
>>
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>So, Don, who decides what morals are taught? And 'me' isn't a fair answer,
>>>though I know that's what you'd prefer.
>>>
>>>TCB
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>>
>>>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>to
>>>>
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges
>in
>>>>
>>>>>a big way.
>>>>
>>>>There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and
the
>>>>
>>>>separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
>>>>
>>>>It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
>>>>
>>>>But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
>>>>foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
>>>>out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
>>>>dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
>>>>decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
>>>>coming true in our lifetimes:
>>>>
>>>>"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to
>society."
>>>>
>>>>Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
>>>>decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence"
>>>is
>>>>
>>>>treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
>>>>
>>>>I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
>>>>is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
>>>>and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It
is
>>>a
>>>>symptom not a cause.
>>>>
>>>>I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
>>>>lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some of
>>>>them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
>>>>
>>>>DC
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94681 is a reply to message #94645] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 13:42 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Bill,
I realize you have strong personal opinions, or more accurately strong visceral
reactions to the psychiatric profession. I happen to agree that brain meds
are vastly over prescribed. However, my father is a (retired) counseling
psychology Ph.D. and my mother is a (ditto) retired high school counselor.
Trust me, there is no vast conspiracy in the head shrinking community to
get everyone medicated. The _is_ an easily understood and contemptible conspiracy
by drug companies to get their drugs prescribed so they make money, but the
idea that there is some back room cabal of shrinks trying to get us all on
Zoloft? It just ain't so.
In addition, there are a number of situations where it is stone cold necessary
to have people highly skilled and trained to deal with personality disorders.
For example, one of my good friends and fave golfing buddy (he's a freaking
four handicap, which is incredibly annoying) makes a fair bit of his living
doing assessments of sex offenders who are up for parole or who have served
their sentence. Sex offenders are notoriously recidivist criminals but (so
far) the law doesn't allow them to be held forever. My friend's job is to
assess those up for parole to make his best judgment about which prisoners
are unlikely to be a danger to others if released, and also to create programs
of therapy in the hope that those who have served their full sentence (or
are paroled) can be prevented from committing further crimes. It agonizing,
difficult work, and in addition to doing absolutely the best job he can (sometimes
involving drug therapies) he has a wonderful family and two adorable bloodhounds.
To paint him, and the many thousands of other well meaning head shrinkers,
with a single brush as essentially evil scientists is just unfair.
Again, this is obviously a personal thing for you, and that's fine, but keep
the rhetoric respectful of the people who do the best job they can.
TCB
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>a big way.
>
>In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>between right and wrong.
>
>They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>
>Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>
>When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>
>When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>
>We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>are our responsibility.
>
>
>rick wrote:
>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
decided
>>> that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental health.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94682 is a reply to message #94680] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 13:44 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I have plenty of ideas about what should be taught, Don, but I didn't make
the 'morals are part of cognition and have to be taught in schools' argument.
You did. Defend it or say you mispoke. So, again, who picks the morals to
be taught?
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>So, you really do have nothing to offer?
>
>Are there no civic virtues to be taught? Or is it true that all morals
>must derive from belief in absolutes?
>
>
>
>DC
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Good answer, Don, and a fine defense of your argument that 'morals' and
>'value
>>reasoning' should be part of (publicly funded, with my tax dollars) education.
>>
>>
>>TCB
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Evidently not the atheists....
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>>
>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>So, Don, who decides what morals are taught? And 'me' isn't a fair answer,
>>>>though I know that's what you'd prefer.
>>>>
>>>>TCB
>>>>
>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>>>
>>>>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges
>>in
>>>>>
>>>>>>a big way.
>>>>>
>>>>>There's more to it than this. Part of it is also the cult of IQ and
>the
>>>>>
>>>>>separation of values reasoning and virtue from cognition.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's all intelligence, it's all cognition.
>>>>>
>>>>>But because we have been told we want a values-free education and are
>>>>>foolish enough to accept the illusion of detached neutrality, we separate
>>>>>out certain functions of the mind and call them intelligence while
>>>>>dismissing others as "not intelligence" but wisdom, virtue, honor,
>>>>>decency, etc. So we end up with Teddy Roosevelt's famous comment
>>>>>coming true in our lifetimes:
>>>>>
>>>>>"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to
>>society."
>>>>>
>>>>>Today, the very idea of society, as a system of shared values and assumed
>>>>>decencies is seen as laughable by a lot of people, while "intelligence"
>>>>is
>>>>>
>>>>>treated by the quasi-educated as silicone is treated by porn stars.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't like psychiatry much more than you do Bill (though I think there
>>>>>is a place for it in extreme cases where treatment has prevented suicides
>>>>>and murders) but it is not the source of the culture we live in. It
>is
>>>>a
>>>>>symptom not a cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am with you on drugs though. I HATE drugs. I have seen more
>>>>>lives, bands, marriages, and great minds ruined by drugs, (and some
of
>>>>>them prescribed drugs), than almost any other single factor.
>>>>>
>>>>>DC
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94684 is a reply to message #94672] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 14:34 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jamie,
As you can tell I feel strongly about this subject, but I do also
appreciate your humor about it.
Indulge me in this and ask yourself this question: Could or would I
prescribe a drug as powerful as crystal meth to a 12 year old boy to
make him more tractable in school?
Jamie K wrote:
>
> Kids have little choice when adults conspire to do EVIL. For example, I
> was subjected to the EVILS of orthodontics! Hauled into a small room
> against my will and tortured with small instruments wielded by sadists.
> Cleverly painful devices were attached to my teeth and wires were
> tightened periodically to keep my teeth in line. Four perfectly good
> teeth were yanked out during the multi-year program of abuse. Drugs were
> used, but never enough. Even after all that, my teeth never admitted
> anything, not even name, rank or serial number.
>
> Granted, now I have straight teeth, but still!
>
> I'm pretty sure the evils of the world can be rightly blamed on
> orthodontists. Millions of kids were subjected to this, and also some
> adults. It is NO ACCIDENT and VERY EVIL. :^)
>
> Meanwhile I have observed a few psychologists and psychiatrists helping
> people straighten out their lives. Not always successfully, there is
> much yet to learn. Just as we will someday find better ways to
> straighten teeth. But I have seen good things happen with the help of
> caring people who seem to be trying to help as best they know how. Some
> prescribing drugs, (our knowledge of brain chemistry and psych drugs
> still seems to be at a fairly experimental stage, I'll give you that),
> and some not.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> Bill L wrote:
>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and
>> laugh and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are
>> not done by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for
>> drugging 8 million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and
>> very powerful narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>
>> Confront it.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos .
>>> . . hmmm.
>>>
>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot
>>> to clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's
>>> another story.
>>>
>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>
>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the
>>>> teaching colleges in a big way.
>>>>
>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American
>>>> Psychiatric Association publicly declared their new goal of creating
>>>> a "Value Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the
>>>> distinction between right and wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>>>> on Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how
>>>> much or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it)
>>>> and the rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should
>>>> think and behave.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>> Leary.
>>>>
>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>> reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between
>>>> right and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being
>>>> blurred it is no accident. Look to the only group who has for over
>>>> 50 years had that as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>
>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know
>>>>>> something decided that discipline and competion were harmful to
>>>>>> children's mental health.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94685 is a reply to message #94681] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 14:45 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I appreciate that everybody has their own viewpoint, but I have no
respect for a person who, in the name of help, puts a child on drugs
just to make them quiet.
And, yes, the drug companies are heavily to blame too. They are about as
slimy an industry as you can find. BUT they could get no where without
the "doctors" who prescribe these harmful drugs.
There was a time the medical profession swore by blood letting for just
about any illness. One day our civilization will look back at the mass
drugging of children (as well as adults) and wonder how the fuck people
could ever have been so barbaric.
I'll drop it now... until the next time!
TCB wrote:
> Hey Bill,
>
> I realize you have strong personal opinions, or more accurately strong visceral
> reactions to the psychiatric profession. I happen to agree that brain meds
> are vastly over prescribed. However, my father is a (retired) counseling
> psychology Ph.D. and my mother is a (ditto) retired high school counselor.
> Trust me, there is no vast conspiracy in the head shrinking community to
> get everyone medicated. The _is_ an easily understood and contemptible conspiracy
> by drug companies to get their drugs prescribed so they make money, but the
> idea that there is some back room cabal of shrinks trying to get us all on
> Zoloft? It just ain't so.
>
> In addition, there are a number of situations where it is stone cold necessary
> to have people highly skilled and trained to deal with personality disorders.
> For example, one of my good friends and fave golfing buddy (he's a freaking
> four handicap, which is incredibly annoying) makes a fair bit of his living
> doing assessments of sex offenders who are up for parole or who have served
> their sentence. Sex offenders are notoriously recidivist criminals but (so
> far) the law doesn't allow them to be held forever. My friend's job is to
> assess those up for parole to make his best judgment about which prisoners
> are unlikely to be a danger to others if released, and also to create programs
> of therapy in the hope that those who have served their full sentence (or
> are paroled) can be prevented from committing further crimes. It agonizing,
> difficult work, and in addition to doing absolutely the best job he can (sometimes
> involving drug therapies) he has a wonderful family and two adorable bloodhounds.
> To paint him, and the many thousands of other well meaning head shrinkers,
> with a single brush as essentially evil scientists is just unfair.
>
> Again, this is obviously a personal thing for you, and that's fine, but keep
> the rhetoric respectful of the people who do the best job they can.
>
> TCB
>
> Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>
>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>
>> a big way.
>>
>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>> between right and wrong.
>>
>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>
>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>
>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>
>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>
>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>
>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>
>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>
>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>
>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>> are our responsibility.
>>
>>
>> rick wrote:
>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
> decided
>>>> that discipline and competion were harmful to children's mental health.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94687 is a reply to message #94684] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 15:35 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Bill,
Passionate feelings are nothing to scoff at. There is plenty of room for
criticism of the medical industry as a whole and the drug economy in
particular and I agree with some of that criticism.
However, it would be unfair to broadly dismiss psychiatrists and
psychologists as "evil." That would be absurd. It would be more fair to
recognize that, while not perfect practitioners of perfectly understood
science, they have dedicated years of study to be able to help people as
best we know right now. And right now that includes therapy, drugs or
both, for people who are struggling with mental illness.
Our current knowledge of mental health issues is, it seems to me, pretty
young. We have much to learn. But attacking or scapegoating the doctors
is not the way to improve things.
I've never had crystal meth so I can't appreciate your analogy there.
But I'm not a fan of drug therapy unless there is no other effective
avenue of treatment. Even then, much drug therapy is still at a "black
box" stage where the usage is experimental, the results unspecific, and
the side effects risky. The brain itself is also not well understood.
And yet I have seen psych drugs have an overall positive effect in the
lives of people I know, and offer an avenue of hope. Continued research
is important.
So I will respectfully disagree with your overall conclusion and
characterization, while agreeing in various extents with some of your
points.
Thanks for the appreciation of the humor, it really was a nightmare
going to the orthodontist! :^)
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Bill L wrote:
> Jamie,
> As you can tell I feel strongly about this subject, but I do also
> appreciate your humor about it.
>
> Indulge me in this and ask yourself this question: Could or would I
> prescribe a drug as powerful as crystal meth to a 12 year old boy to
> make him more tractable in school?
>
> Jamie K wrote:
>>
>> Kids have little choice when adults conspire to do EVIL. For example,
>> I was subjected to the EVILS of orthodontics! Hauled into a small room
>> against my will and tortured with small instruments wielded by
>> sadists. Cleverly painful devices were attached to my teeth and wires
>> were tightened periodically to keep my teeth in line. Four perfectly
>> good teeth were yanked out during the multi-year program of abuse.
>> Drugs were used, but never enough. Even after all that, my teeth never
>> admitted anything, not even name, rank or serial number.
>>
>> Granted, now I have straight teeth, but still!
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the evils of the world can be rightly blamed on
>> orthodontists. Millions of kids were subjected to this, and also some
>> adults. It is NO ACCIDENT and VERY EVIL. :^)
>>
>> Meanwhile I have observed a few psychologists and psychiatrists
>> helping people straighten out their lives. Not always successfully,
>> there is much yet to learn. Just as we will someday find better ways
>> to straighten teeth. But I have seen good things happen with the help
>> of caring people who seem to be trying to help as best they know how.
>> Some prescribing drugs, (our knowledge of brain chemistry and psych
>> drugs still seems to be at a fairly experimental stage, I'll give you
>> that), and some not.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> Bill L wrote:
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and
>>> laugh and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are
>>> not done by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for
>>> drugging 8 million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and
>>> very powerful narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . .
>>>> . or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos
>>>> . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot
>>>> to clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's
>>>> another story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the
>>>>> teaching colleges in a big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American
>>>>> Psychiatric Association publicly declared their new goal of
>>>>> creating a "Value Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and
>>>>> eradicate the distinction between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing
>>>>> the children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our
>>>>> schools the mass drugging of children and even infants
>>>>> (approximately 8 million on Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based
>>>>> Education (doesn't matter how much or how well children learn, just
>>>>> that they felt good about it) and the rest of their psuchobabble
>>>>> notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>>> Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used
>>>>> to be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between
>>>>> right and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being
>>>>> blurred it is no accident. Look to the only group who has for over
>>>>> 50 years had that as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of
>>>>> the problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>>>>>> non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah"
>>>>>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know
>>>>>>> something decided that discipline and competion were harmful to
>>>>>>> children's mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94689 is a reply to message #94683] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 17:52 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Don,
Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker, instead
of just answering.
Chuck
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>
>>TCB
>
>
>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>
>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>conversation is not going away.
>
>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>
>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>
>After all, it's up to us innit?
>
>Again, have anything to offer?
>
>DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94690 is a reply to message #94689] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 18:23 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
be taught.
There is no other answer.
There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
who
does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their own
school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
moral education to re enter public schools.
Which set of morals?
Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
DC
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>Don,
>
>Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker, instead
>of just answering.
>
>Chuck
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>
>>>TCB
>>
>>
>>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>
>>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>conversation is not going away.
>>
>>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>
>>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>
>>After all, it's up to us innit?
>>
>>Again, have anything to offer?
>>
>>DC
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94691 is a reply to message #94690] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 18:39 |
chuck duffy
Messages: 453
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Obfuscate all you want, you're digging a hole and hanging curtains. There's
no conversation here, just you being mysterious and vague.
Chuck
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
>be taught.
>
>There is no other answer.
>
>There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
>be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
>who
>does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
>is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>
>Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
>very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their own
>school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
>must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
>without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
>moral education to re enter public schools.
>
>Which set of morals?
>
>Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>
>But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>
>DC
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>
>>Don,
>>
>>Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker, instead
>>of just answering.
>>
>>Chuck
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>
>>>>TCB
>>>
>>>
>>>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>
>>>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>>conversation is not going away.
>>>
>>>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>
>>>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>
>>>After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>
>>>Again, have anything to offer?
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94692 is a reply to message #94691] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 19:27 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I think there is common ground. I think our traditions provide us with
a set of behaviors we should expect of each other.
Richard Dawkins evidently agrees.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm
The truth is, I do not know which morals will be selected, or should be
because I believe in a secular, (not secularist!) government and those
choices are the product of a people, not a person.
How would you teach morals in grade school? Should we be doing this?
Well, I think so, and I think there is enough common ground to do so
agree?
DC
"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>
>Obfuscate all you want, you're digging a hole and hanging curtains. There's
>no conversation here, just you being mysterious and vague.
>
>Chuck
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>
>>Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
>>be taught.
>>
>>There is no other answer.
>>
>>There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
>>be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
>>who
>>does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
>>is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>>
>>Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
>>very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their
own
>>school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
>>must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
>>without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
>>moral education to re enter public schools.
>>
>>Which set of morals?
>>
>>Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>>
>>But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>>
>>DC
>>
>>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Don,
>>>
>>>Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker,
instead
>>>of just answering.
>>>
>>>Chuck
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>>
>>>>>TCB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>>
>>>>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>>>conversation is not going away.
>>>>
>>>>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>>>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>>
>>>>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>>
>>>>After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>>
>>>>Again, have anything to offer?
>>>>
>>>>DC
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94693 is a reply to message #94683] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 19:39 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Now then, here we have the DC rhetorical and debating style at its simplest
and purest. Or rather half of it. There's pit bull DC who will argue anything
to the bitter end and provoke the other party at every turn. Then there is,
grandfatherly DC (this one) who speaks in generalities, answers questions
with questions, and makes swooping appeals to open discussion and earnest
sharing of ideas. Grandfatherly DC shows up in two situations, a) when DC
has provoked the other party into spittle jetting rage ('Now _look_ at what
you're doing, tsk tsk') or b) when he's caught dead to rights. There's also
the convenient chopping up of what other people write to avoid discussing
anything he doesn't want to discuss.
In any case, you missed a chance to make a good, or at least your best, argument
here. You said morals, wisdom, and decency need to be taught alongside 'intelligence'
and I asked who got to choose the morals to be taught. Of course, that's
an almost impossibly difficult question, because at some point someone is
going to object to some of those morals. What you could have argued, to at
least get some breathing space, is that whatever morals should be taught
it shouldn't be that Frankfurt School relativism spouted by elite and effete
east coast Ivy Leaguers like me, which is the status quo. That misrepresents
both me and the status quo, but that's never stopped you before and it's
the best argumentative out you had.
Now then, some parts of a good school curriculum have no moral component.
There's not much ethical spin possible when dealing with the laws of thermodynamics
or the Pythagorean Theorem. The satanist in Brooklyn, the maddrassah teacher
in Peshawar, the Mormon home schooler in Provo, and the radical settler on
the West Bank would all cheerfully agree that the speed of light is about
186,000 miles per second. So what we're really talking about is minimal social
sciences (barely taught outside of college), history, and languages and literature.
So then, if morals and decency are to be taught in public schools, I ask
this time thrice, who gets to decide what is taught?
As a delectable carrot to draw out an answer I offer this. If you answer
that question with any degree of thoughtfulness and thoroughness I will give
you _my_ opinion. And that is the opinion of someone who attended public
schools for twelve years, whose parents both spent their entire working lives
in public education, and who attended a private college where I got to compare
my education to students who graduated in some of the most elite private
and public secondary schools in the world.
This isn't a 'conversation' it's a simple question. Of course you don't have
to answer it, just don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>
>>TCB
>
>
>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>
>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>conversation is not going away.
>
>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>
>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>
>After all, it's up to us innit?
>
>Again, have anything to offer?
>
>DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94694 is a reply to message #94683] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 19:42 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Now then, here we have the DC rhetorical and debating style at its simplest
and purest. Or rather half of it. There's pit bull DC who will argue anything
to the bitter end and provoke the other party at every turn. Then there is,
grandfatherly DC (this one) who speaks in generalities, answers questions
with questions, and makes swooping appeals to open discussion and earnest
sharing of ideas. Grandfatherly DC shows up in two situations, a) when DC
has provoked the other party into spittle jetting rage ('Now _look_ at what
you're doing, tsk tsk') or b) when he's caught dead to rights. There's also
the convenient chopping up of what other people write to avoid discussing
anything he doesn't want to discuss.
In any case, you missed a chance to make a good, or at least your best, argument
here. You said morals, wisdom, and decency need to be taught alongside 'intelligence'
and I asked who got to choose the morals to be taught. Of course, that's
an almost impossibly difficult question, because at some point someone is
going to object to some of those morals. What you could have argued, to at
least get some breathing space, is that whatever morals should be taught
it shouldn't be that Frankfurt School relativism spouted by elite and effete
east coast Ivy Leaguers like me, which is the status quo. That misrepresents
both me and the status quo, but that's never stopped you before and it's
the best argumentative out you had.
Now then, some parts of a good school curriculum have no moral component.
There's not much ethical spin possible when dealing with the laws of thermodynamics
or the Pythagorean Theorem. The satanist in Brooklyn, the maddrassah teacher
in Peshawar, the Mormon home schooler in Provo, and the radical settler on
the West Bank would all cheerfully agree that the speed of light is about
186,000 miles per second. So what we're really talking about is minimal social
sciences (barely taught outside of college), history, and languages and literature.
So then, if morals and decency are to be taught in public schools, I ask
this time thrice, who gets to decide what is taught?
As a delectable carrot to draw out an answer I offer this. If you answer
that question with any degree of thoughtfulness and thoroughness I will give
you _my_ opinion. And that is the opinion of someone who attended public
schools for twelve years, whose parents both spent their entire working lives
in public education, and who attended a private college where I got to compare
my education to students who graduated in some of the most elite private
and public secondary schools in the world.
This isn't a 'conversation' it's a simple question. Of course you don't have
to answer it, just don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>
>>TCB
>
>
>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>
>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>conversation is not going away.
>
>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>
>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>
>After all, it's up to us innit?
>
>Again, have anything to offer?
>
>DC
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94695 is a reply to message #94693] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 20:00 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Now then, here we have the DC rhetorical and debating style at its simplest
>and purest. Or rather half of it. There's pit bull DC who will argue anything
>to the bitter end and provoke the other party at every turn. Then there
is,
>grandfatherly DC (this one) who speaks in generalities, answers questions
>with questions, and makes swooping appeals to open discussion and earnest
>sharing of ideas. Grandfatherly DC shows up in two situations, a) when DC
>has provoked the other party into spittle jetting rage ('Now _look_ at what
>you're doing, tsk tsk') or b) when he's caught dead to rights. There's also
>the convenient chopping up of what other people write to avoid discussing
>anything he doesn't want to discuss.
This is supposed to be a substitute for content??
How about you? Proud member of the assholes (I'm not a nice guy!)
union? The list pedant, never missing a chance to display his knowledge?
You have to be kidding. Man I edit you to spare you some grief...
(grin)
>In any case, you missed a chance to make a good, or at least your best,
argument
>here. You said morals, wisdom, and decency need to be taught alongside 'intelligence'
>and I asked who got to choose the morals to be taught. Of course, that's
>an almost impossibly difficult question, because at some point someone is
>going to object to some of those morals.
Which of course is not at all the point.
It's not impossible, and it's not even very difficult. It is, however,
collaborative and you have contributed nothing. As usual.
Is there common ground? Can we agree on some basics?
>What you could have argued, to at
>least get some breathing space, is that whatever morals should be taught
>it shouldn't be that Frankfurt School relativism spouted by elite and effete
>east coast Ivy Leaguers like me, which is the status quo. That misrepresents
>both me and the status quo, but that's never stopped you before and it's
>the best argumentative out you had.
Nope. Don't give a damn about your relativism and neither will history.
This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
off, and most people have a clear set of morals. They will contribute
where you will not. They will rule. You will not. You will hate them.
That will make you feel special about yourself...
>Now then, some parts of a good school curriculum have no moral component.
>There's not much ethical spin possible when dealing with the laws of thermodynamics
>or the Pythagorean Theorem. The satanist in Brooklyn, the maddrassah teacher
>in Peshawar, the Mormon home schooler in Provo, and the radical settler
on
>the West Bank would all cheerfully agree that the speed of light is about
>186,000 miles per second. So what we're really talking about is minimal
social
>sciences (barely taught outside of college), history, and languages and
literature.
You forgot Zoroastrianism and your friendly local Buddhist, not to
mention your fellow Flying Spaghetti Monster worshipers...
So, It's proven! Nothing can be done!! There can be no morals taught
in schools.
And you call this a position?
>So then, if morals and decency are to be taught in public schools, I ask
>this time thrice, who gets to decide what is taught?
Thrice, he said thrice!! Must be educated...
We the People, that's who. I just reject your thesis, out of hand,
that is it impossible to find common ground.
>As a delectable carrot to draw out an answer I offer this. If you answer
>that question with any degree of thoughtfulness and thoroughness I will
give
>you _my_ opinion. And that is the opinion of someone who attended public
>schools for twelve years, whose parents both spent their entire working
lives
>in public education, and who attended a private college where I got to compare
>my education to students who graduated in some of the most elite private
>and public secondary schools in the world.
>
>This isn't a 'conversation' it's a simple question. Of course you don't
have
>to answer it, just don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
>
>TCB
It's like asking who gets to elect the government. We do.
Do you see any common ground or not?
DC
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Dec 23 02:09:48 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01857 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
