Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Whaddya think . . . ?
| Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82207] |
Tue, 27 March 2007 21:10  |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra, or
spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need to
be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
expressive and realistic.
Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are OK,
not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed up,
so it's hard to tell.
Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers in
here.
Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
Thanks,
Sarah
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82212 is a reply to message #82207] |
Tue, 27 March 2007 22:15  |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
very performable and expressive in real time.
It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy
collection of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral
soundtrack projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've
produced for clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
have that CD lying around...
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
Sarah wrote:
> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra, or
> spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
> It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need to
> be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
> expressive and realistic.
>
> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are OK,
> not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed up,
> so it's hard to tell.
>
> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers in
> here.
>
> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sarah
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82213 is a reply to message #82212] |
Tue, 27 March 2007 23:41 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks . . . will check that out. :)
Sarah
"Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4609faf6@linux...
>
> I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
> efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
> very performable and expressive in real time.
>
> It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy collection
> of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral soundtrack
> projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've produced for
> clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
>
> Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
>
> If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
> that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
> the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
> have that CD lying around...
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
>> or spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to
>> v.3). It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't
>> need to be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the
>> sounds are expressive and realistic.
>>
>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>> OK, not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall
>> reverbed up, so it's hard to tell.
>>
>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
>> in here.
>>
>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sarah
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82222 is a reply to message #82213] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 07:44 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sarah - I would ditto Jamie's recommendation. GPO is fine for the money.
It isn't going to sound like EWQLSO, Sonivox or VSL simply due to the
limited articulations and limited depth of sampling, but if you are just
doing light arranging the others may be overkill (not to mention requiring
a lot more cpu/disk overhead).
From what I hear from other composers, Giga can be a bit finicky about
system config. Not to discourage you from it, just check out the specifics
before going that route over GPO. GPO is pretty straightforward and easy to
work with.
Regards,
Dedric
On 3/28/07 12:41 AM, in article 460a0f36@linux, "Sarah"
<sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> Thanks . . . will check that out. :)
>
> Sarah
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4609faf6@linux...
>>
>> I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
>> efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
>> very performable and expressive in real time.
>>
>> It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy collection
>> of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral soundtrack
>> projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've produced for
>> clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
>>
>> Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
>>
>> If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
>> that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
>> the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
>> have that CD lying around...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
>>> or spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to
>>> v.3). It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't
>>> need to be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the
>>> sounds are expressive and realistic.
>>>
>>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>>> OK, not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall
>>> reverbed up, so it's hard to tell.
>>>
>>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>>> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
>>> in here.
>>>
>>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82224 is a reply to message #82222] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 07:51 |
Deej [4]
Messages: 1292
Registered: January 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
A friend of mine owns this:
http://www.synful.com/
I'm thinking about getting it and just layering it under my GPO on the same
channel/similar patch in order to enhance the articulation. This proggie
RAWX!
;o)
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
news:C22FDB75.8CC1%dterry@keyofd.net...
> Sarah - I would ditto Jamie's recommendation. GPO is fine for the money.
> It isn't going to sound like EWQLSO, Sonivox or VSL simply due to the
> limited articulations and limited depth of sampling, but if you are just
> doing light arranging the others may be overkill (not to mention requiring
> a lot more cpu/disk overhead).
>
> From what I hear from other composers, Giga can be a bit finicky about
> system config. Not to discourage you from it, just check out the
> specifics
> before going that route over GPO. GPO is pretty straightforward and easy
> to
> work with.
>
> Regards,
> Dedric
>
> On 3/28/07 12:41 AM, in article 460a0f36@linux, "Sarah"
> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks . . . will check that out. :)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4609faf6@linux...
>>>
>>> I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
>>> efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
>>> very performable and expressive in real time.
>>>
>>> It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy
>>> collection
>>> of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral soundtrack
>>> projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've produced for
>>> clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
>>>
>>> Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
>>>
>>> If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
>>> that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
>>> the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
>>> have that CD lying around...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>>> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal
>>>> Orchestra,
>>>> or spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to
>>>> v.3). It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it
>>>> doesn't
>>>> need to be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the
>>>> sounds are expressive and realistic.
>>>>
>>>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>>>> OK, not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall
>>>> reverbed up, so it's hard to tell.
>>>>
>>>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging
>>>> setup?
>>>> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>>> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
>>>> in here.
>>>>
>>>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Sarah
>>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82225 is a reply to message #82224] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 08:23 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
A couple of similar solo plugin are Garritan's Stradivari Solo Violin
and the Gofriller Cello. Check 'em out.
www.garritan.com/stradivari.html
http://www.garritan.com/cello.html
If I didn't already play violin I'd consider one of the solo violin
plugins. Impressive stuff.
Layering a real violin or two on top of GPO (or any library) is a useful
technique.
Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com
DJ wrote:
> A friend of mine owns this:
>
> http://www.synful.com/
>
> I'm thinking about getting it and just layering it under my GPO on the same
> channel/similar patch in order to enhance the articulation. This proggie
> RAWX!
>
> ;o)
>
>
>
> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote in message
> news:C22FDB75.8CC1%dterry@keyofd.net...
>> Sarah - I would ditto Jamie's recommendation. GPO is fine for the money.
>> It isn't going to sound like EWQLSO, Sonivox or VSL simply due to the
>> limited articulations and limited depth of sampling, but if you are just
>> doing light arranging the others may be overkill (not to mention requiring
>> a lot more cpu/disk overhead).
>>
>> From what I hear from other composers, Giga can be a bit finicky about
>> system config. Not to discourage you from it, just check out the
>> specifics
>> before going that route over GPO. GPO is pretty straightforward and easy
>> to
>> work with.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>> On 3/28/07 12:41 AM, in article 460a0f36@linux, "Sarah"
>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks . . . will check that out. :)
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>>
>>> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4609faf6@linux...
>>>> I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
>>>> efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
>>>> very performable and expressive in real time.
>>>>
>>>> It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy
>>>> collection
>>>> of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral soundtrack
>>>> projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've produced for
>>>> clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
>>>>
>>>> If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
>>>> that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
>>>> the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
>>>> have that CD lying around...
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>>>> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal
>>>>> Orchestra,
>>>>> or spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to
>>>>> v.3). It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> need to be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the
>>>>> sounds are expressive and realistic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>>>>> OK, not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall
>>>>> reverbed up, so it's hard to tell.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging
>>>>> setup?
>>>>> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>>>> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
>>>>> in here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82231 is a reply to message #82207] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 10:55 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Motu's Symphonic Instrument http://www.motu.com/products/software/msi/version11.html
is very very nice.
And cost the same as GPO..Check it out as well..
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
or
>spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
>It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need
to
>be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
>expressive and realistic.
>
> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
OK,
>not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed
up,
>so it's hard to tell.
>
> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
in
>here.
>
> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sarah
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82234 is a reply to message #82207] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 13:05 |
duncan
Messages: 123
Registered: November 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I like Garritan, but I have humble needs. Hard to beat at the rather
modest price, though... And it's playable -- you use the mod wheel on
your controller to shape the attack on individual instruments -- makes
it all a little more "human" (whatever that is...)...
Best o' luck -- chas.
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:10:17 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
wrote:
> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra, or
>spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
>It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need to
>be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
>expressive and realistic.
>
> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are OK,
>not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed up,
>so it's hard to tell.
>
> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers in
>here.
>
> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sarah
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82235 is a reply to message #82213] |
Wed, 28 March 2007 12:29 |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Sarah,
GPO is great for quick arrangements. It's very easy to use and fairly is
a complete set of sounds. This East West QLSO o the MOTU one are great
all in one setups. At this point I wouldn't recommend Giga to my worst
enemy :)
There a tons of VSTi available that offer a great set of sound that
integrate better with sequencing software and that are easier to use and
come with a better set of sounds than Giga.
Chris
Sarah wrote:
> Thanks . . . will check that out. :)
>
> Sarah
>
>
> "Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:4609faf6@linux...
>> I'm a fan of GPO. I get convincing orchestral sounds out of it; it runs
>> efficiently (CPU and HD); and the way they designed the interaction is
>> very performable and expressive in real time.
>>
>> It's been great for arranging and scoring, and has been a handy collection
>> of instruments that have found their way onto orchestral soundtrack
>> projects; CD projects in a variety of styles that I've produced for
>> clients; and here and there on my solo CDs.
>>
>> Couldn't compare it to Giga, don't have that here.
>>
>> If you listen to the end of "One" on my "Toward An Attitude" the horns
>> that come in at the end are from GPO. Also the pipe organ and tympani at
>> the end of the title track. Not major orchestral examples, but since you
>> have that CD lying around...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>> either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
>>> or spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to
>>> v.3). It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't
>>> need to be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the
>>> sounds are expressive and realistic.
>>>
>>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>>> OK, not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall
>>> reverbed up, so it's hard to tell.
>>>
>>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>>> Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>> computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
>>> in here.
>>>
>>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK Pro Audio
(859) 635-5762
www.adkproaudio.com
chrisl@adkproaudio.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82269 is a reply to message #82234] |
Thu, 29 March 2007 02:39 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks everybody for the input. I think I'll go with the bundled GPO, at
least for the time being. Sounds nice and simple. :)
Love all y'all,
Sarah
"Chas. Duncan" <duncan5199ATsbcglobalDOTnet@> wrote in message
news:fgil035radunki1j40rn55bgqipft26omr@4ax.com...
>
> I like Garritan, but I have humble needs. Hard to beat at the rather
> modest price, though... And it's playable -- you use the mod wheel on
> your controller to shape the attack on individual instruments -- makes
> it all a little more "human" (whatever that is...)...
>
> Best o' luck -- chas.
>
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:10:17 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
>>or
>>spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
>>It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need to
>>be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
>>expressive and realistic.
>>
>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>> OK,
>>not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed
>>up,
>>so it's hard to tell.
>>
>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>>Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers in
>>here.
>>
>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Sarah
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Whaddya think . . . ? [message #82317 is a reply to message #82269] |
Thu, 29 March 2007 19:05 |
gene lennon
Messages: 565
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I’ve been away from computers for a few days, so I missed this.
I’m not a big GPO fan. The full Garritan for Giga is a completely different
animal.
Check out:
http://www.audiomidi.com/Vienna-Special-Edition-P9128.aspx
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Thanks everybody for the input. I think I'll go with the bundled GPO, at
>least for the time being. Sounds nice and simple. :)
>
>Love all y'all,
>
>Sarah
>
>
>"Chas. Duncan" <duncan5199ATsbcglobalDOTnet@> wrote in message
>news:fgil035radunki1j40rn55bgqipft26omr@4ax.com...
>>
>> I like Garritan, but I have humble needs. Hard to beat at the rather
>> modest price, though... And it's playable -- you use the mod wheel on
>> your controller to shape the attack on individual instruments -- makes
>> it all a little more "human" (whatever that is...)...
>>
>> Best o' luck -- chas.
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:10:17 -0700, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm going to upgrade my Sibelius (v.2 to v.4), and I'm thinking of
>>>either getting their bundle discount on the Garritan Personal Orchestra,
>>>or
>>>spending a couple hundred more and upgrading my Gigastudio (v.2 to v.3).
>>>It's just for my little composing/arranging station, so it doesn't need
to
>>>be CD quality sound. On the other hand, it's more fun if the sounds are
>>>expressive and realistic.
>>>
>>> Is the Garritan Personal Orch decent sounding? The mp3 samples are
>>> OK,
>>>not amazing or anything, but they're demos are all concert hall reverbed
>>>up,
>>>so it's hard to tell.
>>>
>>> Ya think Gigastudio is overkill for a simple writing/arranging setup?
>>>Is the learning curve gonna make me regret it? If it needs to be on a
>>>computer by itself, I'm not interested . . . I don't want two computers
in
>>>here.
>>>
>>> Opinions? Experience? Inspirational quotes?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Sarah
>>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Nov 30 09:47:02 PST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01586 seconds
|
The PARIS Forums
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
