Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's.
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94696 is a reply to message #94690] |
Mon, 14 January 2008 18:47   |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
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Senior Member |
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In a discussion like this it's important to define the terms. In fact
"morals" may not be the most suitable word.
"Moral" is derived from the Latin word "moralis" which means "usage,
customs". Morals are rules of conduct accepted by a society or group and
based on group experience. Morals change with the times and with
different societies. For example to a person who works for his living it
would be immoral to withhold the name of a person who stole. To a
criminal it would be immoral to "rat him out".
The word "ethics" may be a more useful term. Ethics is based on logical
thought, rather than customary accepted behavior. What action would be
the greatest good.
For example sometimes a lie may be the most ethical way to handle a
situation even though morally speaking it would be wrong to lie. George
Washington must have had a hard life if he could really not tell a lie.
Anyway, my point is that people should learn to think logically with
ethics, rather than just follow a moral code (although a moral code is
better than nothing).
Here is a way to make an ethical decision (this comes from the writings
of L Ron Hubbard):
Life could be said to be composed of 8 "dynamics" or "urges toward
survival" as follows:
First Dynamic is the urge toward survival of self.
Second Dynamic is the urge toward survival through a) sex, and b)
children and family
Third Dynamic is the urge toward survival through groups (one's country,
school, company, this newsgroup, etc.)
Fourth is the the urge toward survival through mankind
Fifth is the urge toward survival through living things (animals,
plants, etc.)
Sixth dynamic is the urge toward survival through the physical world:
matter, energy, space, and time
Seventh is the urge toward survival through spirits
Eighth is the urge toward survival through god or infinity
To make an ethical choice just make sure it helps a majority of the 8
dynamics. An optimum survival choice would be one which benefits all
dynamics. Optimum survival is toward infinite survival.
Ideally we should teach our children to think with ethics and to make
their choices towards optimum survival. This will keep them from being
hoodwinked by, for example, a gang's moral code of hating the police and
other rival gangs.
Children need to be given tools for rational thought and logic, not
fixed ideas and certainly not false data or unethical ideas.
Individuality must be fostered, especially in any group activity.
DC wrote:
> Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
> be taught.
>
> There is no other answer.
>
> There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
> be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
> who
> does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
> is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>
> Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
> very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their own
> school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
> must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
> without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
> moral education to re enter public schools.
>
> Which set of morals?
>
> Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>
> But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>
> DC
>
> "chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>> Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker, instead
>> of just answering.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>> So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>
>>>> TCB
>>>
>>> Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>
>>> Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>> conversation is not going away.
>>>
>>> Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>> Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>
>>> Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>
>>> After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>
>>> Again, have anything to offer?
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94700 is a reply to message #94698] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 00:38 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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In the case of selecting school standards it is essentially a democracy
of the engaged. (that then has to play political football with the
unengaged) In other words, the more you get involved the more say
you have.
Over the last few years, I have been involved in a couple of local committees
both city and county, and two things have impressed me:
It's actually quite easy to get involved and have your voice heard. (That
doesn't mean anyone is listening of course...)
Those people serving in these roles tend to be good folks and not
ideologues.
My point? Just as with school Science standards (and I am against the
mandated teaching of either creationism or ID) those with a burden on
the issue hold the conversation. There WILL be a conversation however,
especially on the teaching of virtue to young people. Then, some
consensus is formed, that hopefully will not upset either the militant
secularists, nor the conservative theists too much (though neither
side will get what they really want) and this is presented to the public
and made into policy. Then the activists try to get "the bums" who
passed this garbage all recalled and the policy nullified. They may succeed.
If they do not, the policy stands. The one group that gets well and truly
steamrollered are those who think the whole project is impossible.
It's not. Consensus is achievable.
And anyone who doesn't think that we have a real problem in
our public schools is in deep denial.
DC
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>
>>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>>off,
>
>errrrr..........just one small point. This country is not a democracy and
>never has been. It is a representative republic with a bicameral legislature
>which was specifically created to protect minority rights from the tyranny
>majority rule, which is the essence of the definition of democracy. In this
>country, we do employ a democratic "method" wherein the those who are legally
>entitled to vote (the electorate) choose legislators who are, in turn, subject
>to the rules as set out in the constitution and interpreted by the courts.
>
>
>Just a small point........but perhaps important to some degree.
>
>;o)
>
>OK..now I'm gonna put on my flame suit and cover up.
>
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94702 is a reply to message #94670] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 02:02 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
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Senior Member |
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great...dumb but sane...is that marketable?
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:38:06 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
wrote:
>Smarter? Naaa. Loonier maybe. If you were loonier you would have thought
>of that.
>
>S
>
>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2mamo3hjje0huv008c9bbq55efk88mc94r@4ax.com...
>> and if i were smarter i would have thought of that...
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:16:51 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Ignoransk is blisk" - Popeye
>>>
>>>S
>>>
>>>"rick" <parnell68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:32qjo3tacag3k1niba4n0sdgo18aafjb5v@4ax.com...
>>>> but they're happy...afterall ignorance is bliss.
>>>>
>>>> On 13 Jan 2008 14:09:17 +1000, "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>You are spot on. Our educational system started to decline in the late
>>>>>>'60s and has never recovered
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In analyzing a changing trend in a statistic, such as the decline in
>>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>>quality of the US school system, what you must do is look just BEFORE
>>>>>>the change occurred to find what caused it. What changed in the US
>>>>>>school system that has caused the drastic reduction in results?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Discuss please...
>>>>>
>>>>>Taking the emphasis off competition, pass/ fail grading and passing
>>>>>students
>>>>>
>>>>>along without them being able to accomplish the coursework.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94704 is a reply to message #94671] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 05:16 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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Bill,
I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
assigned to the antisocial personality.
I think it works like this:
1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less work
that way.
See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
people being their usual crazy selves.
But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted us
to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
because they can't figure how to teach him.
Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the big
faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
work.
Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
Can you confront that possibility?
I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
persuasive or helpful.
Peace,
Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done by
> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>
> Confront it.
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are
>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>
>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>> story.
>>
>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm
>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>
>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>
>> S
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>>> big way.
>>>
>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>> between right and wrong.
>>>
>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>
>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>
>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>
>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>
>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>>> are our responsibility.
>>>
>>>
>>> rick wrote:
>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94706 is a reply to message #94704] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 06:58 |
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This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
school.
Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
Gantt
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Bill,
>
> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>
> I think it works like this:
>
> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
work
>that way.
>
> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>people being their usual crazy selves.
>
> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
us
>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>
> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
big
>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>work.
>
> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>Can you confront that possibility?
>
> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>persuasive or helpful.
>
>Peace,
>
>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>
>
>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
by
>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>
>> Confront it.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
are
>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>
>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>> story.
>>>
>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
I'm
>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>
>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
to
>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
a
>>>> big way.
>>>>
>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
on
>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
or
>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
rest
>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>
>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
be
>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
of
>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
is
>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>
>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
non
>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>
Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94709 is a reply to message #94695] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 07:49 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
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Well, you still didn't answer my question, so I guess that's that.
As for the charge of pedantry, showy writing, and so forth, I decided a while
back that I'll only act stupider than I am when I'm chatting up unlettered
pretty girls. If she's a hottie from the 'burbs who had to be smuggled out
of Amity High and I want to see her naked, I'll pretend I watch reality TV
and don't know John Milton from Milton Friedman. For the rest of the world
I write and read the way I like. Some people find they can take advantage
of this, that I've hacked a few paths into the jungle that make their own
trek a bit easier. Other people decide I'm a pedant. As the Germans say,
Es ist mir wurst! It's all sausage to me!
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Now then, here we have the DC rhetorical and debating style at its simplest
>>and purest. Or rather half of it. There's pit bull DC who will argue anything
>>to the bitter end and provoke the other party at every turn. Then there
>is,
>>grandfatherly DC (this one) who speaks in generalities, answers questions
>>with questions, and makes swooping appeals to open discussion and earnest
>>sharing of ideas. Grandfatherly DC shows up in two situations, a) when
DC
>>has provoked the other party into spittle jetting rage ('Now _look_ at
what
>>you're doing, tsk tsk') or b) when he's caught dead to rights. There's
also
>>the convenient chopping up of what other people write to avoid discussing
>>anything he doesn't want to discuss.
>
>
>This is supposed to be a substitute for content??
>
>How about you? Proud member of the assholes (I'm not a nice guy!)
>union? The list pedant, never missing a chance to display his knowledge?
>
>You have to be kidding. Man I edit you to spare you some grief...
>
>(grin)
>
>
>>In any case, you missed a chance to make a good, or at least your best,
>argument
>>here. You said morals, wisdom, and decency need to be taught alongside
'intelligence'
>>and I asked who got to choose the morals to be taught. Of course, that's
>>an almost impossibly difficult question, because at some point someone
is
>>going to object to some of those morals.
>
>
>Which of course is not at all the point.
>
>It's not impossible, and it's not even very difficult. It is, however,
>collaborative and you have contributed nothing. As usual.
>
>Is there common ground? Can we agree on some basics?
>
>
>>What you could have argued, to at
>>least get some breathing space, is that whatever morals should be taught
>>it shouldn't be that Frankfurt School relativism spouted by elite and effete
>>east coast Ivy Leaguers like me, which is the status quo. That misrepresents
>>both me and the status quo, but that's never stopped you before and it's
>>the best argumentative out you had.
>
>
>Nope. Don't give a damn about your relativism and neither will history.
>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>off, and most people have a clear set of morals. They will contribute
>where you will not. They will rule. You will not. You will hate them.
>That will make you feel special about yourself...
>
>
>>Now then, some parts of a good school curriculum have no moral component.
>>There's not much ethical spin possible when dealing with the laws of thermodynamics
>>or the Pythagorean Theorem. The satanist in Brooklyn, the maddrassah teacher
>>in Peshawar, the Mormon home schooler in Provo, and the radical settler
>on
>>the West Bank would all cheerfully agree that the speed of light is about
>>186,000 miles per second. So what we're really talking about is minimal
>social
>>sciences (barely taught outside of college), history, and languages and
>literature.
>
>You forgot Zoroastrianism and your friendly local Buddhist, not to
>mention your fellow Flying Spaghetti Monster worshipers...
>
>So, It's proven! Nothing can be done!! There can be no morals taught
>in schools.
>
>And you call this a position?
>
>
>>So then, if morals and decency are to be taught in public schools, I ask
>>this time thrice, who gets to decide what is taught?
>
>Thrice, he said thrice!! Must be educated...
>
>We the People, that's who. I just reject your thesis, out of hand,
>that is it impossible to find common ground.
>
>
>
>>As a delectable carrot to draw out an answer I offer this. If you answer
>>that question with any degree of thoughtfulness and thoroughness I will
>give
>>you _my_ opinion. And that is the opinion of someone who attended public
>>schools for twelve years, whose parents both spent their entire working
>lives
>>in public education, and who attended a private college where I got to
compare
>>my education to students who graduated in some of the most elite private
>>and public secondary schools in the world.
>>
>>This isn't a 'conversation' it's a simple question. Of course you don't
>have
>>to answer it, just don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
>>
>>TCB
>
>
>It's like asking who gets to elect the government. We do.
>
>Do you see any common ground or not?
>
>
>DC
|
|
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|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94710 is a reply to message #94692] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 08:05 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Now this post I have to save. DC name checks Richard Dawkins! That's like
me quoting ibn-Qutab or Pat Robertson with a straight face!
This is classic mis-reading of Dawkins, which is unsurprising. Between the
two of us 'The God Delusion' has been read twice, both times by me. Dawkins
goes to great length in the first chapter of that book to defend against
precisely what you're doing. That is, many scientists are 'social Christians,'
that is, they go to church to meet their friends and neighbors before settling
down to watch the Sunday football game. It's a very English thing, walk down
to see the vicar, talk about the rain, see the neighbor's kid growing up.
Many scientists (Dawkins singles out Einstein in particular) also make vague
statements about the mysteries they have yet to figure out that sound more
or less 'spiritual' but are at most crypto-deism.
Dawkins argues that the twice born use both of these things to heave onto
scientists attributes like the belief in a personal god and belief in a Christian
nation. He finds this especially perplexing for Americans since while the
first white Americans were religious nut jobs they were fleeing religious
oppression (in England) and went out of their way to take religion out of
control of the state.
So, Don, you're doing just what Dawkins says shouldn't be done. He says 'I
like singing Christmas carols' and you take that to mean 'I believe in a
common set of Christian values' where in fact he argues extensively, and
repeatedly, that Christian values as represented in scripture and the actions
of fundamentalist Christians are anathema to him.
So, Richard Dawkins vehemently disagrees.
TCB
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>I think there is common ground. I think our traditions provide us with
>a set of behaviors we should expect of each other.
>
>Richard Dawkins evidently agrees.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm
>
>The truth is, I do not know which morals will be selected, or should be
>because I believe in a secular, (not secularist!) government and those
>choices are the product of a people, not a person.
>
>How would you teach morals in grade school? Should we be doing this?
>
>Well, I think so, and I think there is enough common ground to do so
>
>agree?
>
>DC
>
>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>
>>Obfuscate all you want, you're digging a hole and hanging curtains. There's
>>no conversation here, just you being mysterious and vague.
>>
>>Chuck
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Those who engage the conversation, will pick the things that will
>>>be taught.
>>>
>>>There is no other answer.
>>>
>>>There may still be common ground enough for a set of virtues to
>>>be agreed upon. I certainly hope so. But, nothing I think will establish
>>>who
>>>does the choosing, and no matter what I say, I will be wrong because it
>>>is a conversation, not an opinion poll.
>>>
>>>Right now, millions are opting out of public education because of this
>>>very issue. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, all have their
>own
>>>school systems for this very reason, and now the public school teachers
>>>must often try to teach in a war zone because young people are raised
>>>without morals and parents so often. Many people think it is time for
>>>moral education to re enter public schools.
>>>
>>>Which set of morals?
>>>
>>>Ours. We decide. Those who participate, that is.
>>>
>>>But mark my words, the conversation will occur with or without us.
>>>
>>>DC
>>>
>>>"chuck duffy" <c@c.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Don,
>>>>
>>>>Thad asked a question, and you did your typical turn it on the asker,
>instead
>>>>of just answering.
>>>>
>>>>Chuck
>>>>
>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>So, again, who picks the morals to be taught?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>TCB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Simple enough. Those involved in the conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you have something to offer? Because I can assure you, the
>>>>>conversation is not going away.
>>>>>
>>>>>Would you derive morals from Hobbes' natural law reasoning?
>>>>>Social contract theory? Natural selection?
>>>>>
>>>>>Tell me how you would join the conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>>After all, it's up to us innit?
>>>>>
>>>>>Again, have anything to offer?
>>>>>
>>>>>DC
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94711 is a reply to message #94706] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 06:50 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
at least Jake has parents who care enough to ask if this is really the
right or only choice...hats off to you both.
On 16 Jan 2008 00:58:19 +1000, "Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
>old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
>he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
>deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
>(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
>go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
>the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
>on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
>addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
>predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
>we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
>another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
>was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
>do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
>school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
>qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
>the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
>isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
>has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
>has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
>school.
>
>Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
>Gantt
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>work
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>us
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>big
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
|
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94724 is a reply to message #94706] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 12:02 |
|
|
I've been reading a bit about The Sudbury Valley School. It's interesting
stuff:
http://books.google.com/books?id=es2nOuZE0rAC&dq=daniel+ greenberg+sudberry+valley&pg=PP1&ots=TkGUQdxgDF& sig=KLBWjwcLwbKThsuAWg8rjLi5z4c&hl=en&prev=http://ww w.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=daniel +greenberg+sudberry+valley&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa= X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail# PPA2,M1
I'm sure some of you will have opinions!
Gantt
"Gantt Kushner" <ganttmann@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10
year
>old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
>he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
>deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
>(and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
>go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
>the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is
he
>on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
>addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
>predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
>we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
>another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her
response
>was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your
glasses,
>do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
>school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
>qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
>the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
>isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
>has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that
he
>has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his
new
>school.
>
>Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
>Gantt
>
>"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases
to
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>work
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
just
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>us
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>big
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot
to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges
in
>a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94726 is a reply to message #94700] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 12:31 |
Deej [5]
Messages: 373
Registered: March 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
OK!! OK!!!...I was just sayin' ;o), and actually I do agree with this (your)
post.
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote:
>
>In the case of selecting school standards it is essentially a democracy
>of the engaged. (that then has to play political football with the
>unengaged) In other words, the more you get involved the more say
>you have.
>
>Over the last few years, I have been involved in a couple of local committees
>both city and county, and two things have impressed me:
>
>It's actually quite easy to get involved and have your voice heard. (That
>
>doesn't mean anyone is listening of course...)
>
>Those people serving in these roles tend to be good folks and not
>ideologues.
>
>My point? Just as with school Science standards (and I am against the
>mandated teaching of either creationism or ID) those with a burden on
>the issue hold the conversation. There WILL be a conversation however,
>especially on the teaching of virtue to young people. Then, some
>consensus is formed, that hopefully will not upset either the militant
>secularists, nor the conservative theists too much (though neither
>side will get what they really want) and this is presented to the public
>and made into policy. Then the activists try to get "the bums" who
>passed this garbage all recalled and the policy nullified. They may succeed.
>If they do not, the policy stands. The one group that gets well and truly
>steamrollered are those who think the whole project is impossible.
>
>It's not. Consensus is achievable.
>
>And anyone who doesn't think that we have a real problem in
>our public schools is in deep denial.
>
>DC
>
>
>
>"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This country is still a democracy, no matter how much that pisses you
>>>off,
>>
>>errrrr..........just one small point. This country is not a democracy and
>>never has been. It is a representative republic with a bicameral legislature
>>which was specifically created to protect minority rights from the tyranny
>>majority rule, which is the essence of the definition of democracy. In
this
>>country, we do employ a democratic "method" wherein the those who are legally
>>entitled to vote (the electorate) choose legislators who are, in turn,
subject
>>to the rules as set out in the constitution and interpreted by the courts.
>>
>>
>>Just a small point........but perhaps important to some degree.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>OK..now I'm gonna put on my flame suit and cover up.
>>
>>
>
|
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94739 is a reply to message #94704] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 13:47 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic
improvement and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly
rejected. It wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want
to know about cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying
to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take
Hubbard long to see where they were really coming from.
He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
the public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really
want to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and
electric shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets
much better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out
of a psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.
On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline
in the school systems.
Sarah wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
> since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
> assigned to the antisocial personality.
>
> I think it works like this:
>
> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
> even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less work
> that way.
>
> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
> people being their usual crazy selves.
>
> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
> the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
> kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted us
> to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
> different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
> because they can't figure how to teach him.
>
> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the big
> faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
> work.
>
> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
> "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
> decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
> Can you confront that possibility?
>
> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
> (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
> persuasive or helpful.
>
> Peace,
>
> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done by
>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>
>> Confront it.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists are
>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>
>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>> story.
>>>
>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that I'm
>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>
>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign to
>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in a
>>>> big way.
>>>>
>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>
>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much or
>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the rest
>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>
>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to be
>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute of
>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>
>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of non
>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94741 is a reply to message #94706] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 13:51 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Wow, trying to make drugging a child seem as normal and helpful as
wearing glasses. That's a new low.
Gantt Kushner wrote:
> This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
> old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
> he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
> deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
> (and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
> go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
> the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
> on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
> addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
> predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
> we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
> another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
> was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
> do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
> school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
> qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
> the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
> isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
> has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
> has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
> school.
>
> Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
> Gantt
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>> since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>> assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>> even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
> work
>> that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>> people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>> the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>> kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
> us
>> to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>> different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>> because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
> big
>> faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>> work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>> "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>> decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>> Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>> (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>> persuasive or helpful.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
> by
>>> accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>>>> Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
> are
>>>> not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>> duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
> I'm
>>>> not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>>>> at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>>>>> young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
> to
>>>>> influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
> a
>>>>> big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
> on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
> or
>>>>> how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
> rest
>>>>> of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
> be
>>>>> regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
> of
>>>>> being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>>>>> into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>> illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
> is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>>>>> are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
> non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94747 is a reply to message #94739] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 17:09 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Actually, I did not name "psychiatry as the cause of the decline in the
school system," though you understandably heard it that way. I said, in
response to Don's comment about self-esteem vs achievement, that
"psychologists pretending to know something decided that discipline and
competion were harmful to children's mental health." Not an indictment of
the entire subject of psychology, just a group of individual psychologists
with some half-baked theories about children's education which unfortunately
had some influence on our schools.
I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written three
so far:
I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
Spanking the Child Within
Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People
Could change your life. :)
S
"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478d2d91$1@linux...
> Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
> them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
> of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic improvement
> and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly rejected. It
> wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want to know about
> cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying to suppress
> Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take Hubbard long to see
> where they were really coming from.
>
> He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with the
> public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really want
> to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and electric
> shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets much
> better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out of a
> psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.
>
> On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
> truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
>
> By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline in
> the school systems.
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't
>> either, since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr
>> Hubbard has assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>> market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes
>> they even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>> work that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
>> just people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better
>> include the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to
>> drug their kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The
>> school wanted us to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual
>> people who learn in different ways and at different rates, and I'm not
>> going to drug him just because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>> big faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle
>> at work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry
>> became "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS,
>> this decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about
>> psychs? Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on
>> children (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just
>> not at all persuasive or helpful.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>>> and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>>> by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>> million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>>> narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>> Confront it.
>>>
>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>>>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . .
>>>> . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>>> story.
>>>>
>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the teaching
>>>>> colleges in a big way.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million on
>>>>> Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>>>>> or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>>>>> rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and
>>>>> behave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>>> Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>>>>> and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it is
>>>>> no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>>>>> as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>>>>>> non
>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah"
>>>>>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>>>>>>> decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>> mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94748 is a reply to message #94739] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 18:36 |
Tom
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2008
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Bill L <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote:
>Psychiatry has been trying
>to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take
>Hubbard long to see where they were really coming from.
I think they're coming from the standpoint of "space aliens?
Really?" I mean, Bill - how can one say this without offending
you, but come on, the guy built his own religion around an
unsold movie script. He was a science fiction writer & he
wrote a sci-fi story & turned it into a business that made him
hella more money than any series of movie deals could've gotten
him.
>He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
>the public ever since.
"Journey to Ixtlan" was a runaway bestseller too, would you
yourself advocate the particular religious experiences outlined
in that book?
>On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
>truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
Lots of people of varying faiths can make similar claims, but it
doesn't mean they're right, either. If it works for you,
good for you, just don't try & pass it off as though it's the only thing
that works. If a catholic did that here, they'd get
lambasted.
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since the 70's. [message #94750 is a reply to message #94747] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 17:39 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Covey is fantastic.. I'll definitely recommend the 7 habits.
Life altering and eye opening doesn't adequately cover it, but it's the
closest I can get in text.
AA
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote in message news:478d5ccf@linux...
> Actually, I did not name "psychiatry as the cause of the decline in the
> school system," though you understandably heard it that way. I said, in
> response to Don's comment about self-esteem vs achievement, that
> "psychologists pretending to know something decided that discipline and
> competion were harmful to children's mental health." Not an indictment of
> the entire subject of psychology, just a group of individual psychologists
> with some half-baked theories about children's education which
> unfortunately had some influence on our schools.
>
> I'd like to recommend everyone read my self-help books. I've written
> three so far:
> I'm OK, You're F***ed Up
> Spanking the Child Within
> Habits of the 7 Highly Effective People
>
> Could change your life. :)
>
> S
>
>
>
> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
> news:478d2d91$1@linux...
>> Sarah, In the '50s Hubbard approached psychiatrists and the APA to offer
>> them the techniques he had developed in Dianetics. He presented a decade
>> of clinical work and thousands of documented cases of dramatic
>> improvement and cures of people's mental aberrations. He was roundly
>> rejected. It wasn't just professional jealousy, they simply did not want
>> to know about cures or the betterment of man. Psychiatry has been trying
>> to suppress Scientology and Dianetics ever since. It did not take Hubbard
>> long to see where they were really coming from.
>>
>> He wrote the book Dianetics and it has been a runaway best seller with
>> the public ever since. People want help, but psychiatry does not really
>> want to help them. They have used prefrontal lobotomy, insulin and
>> electric shock and mind-numbing drugs to subdue people, but no one gets
>> much better - they just get quieter and more apathetic. No one comes out
>> of a psychiatric session feeling like a million bucks, that's for sure.
>>
>> On the other hand I come out of Scientology counseling sessions feeling
>> truly fantastic all the time. I sure wish everybody could feel that way.
>>
>> By the way, it was you who named psychiatry as the cause of the decline
>> in the school systems.
>>
>> Sarah wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>>> confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't
>>> either, since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr
>>> Hubbard has assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>>
>>> I think it works like this:
>>>
>>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases
>>> to market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes
>>> they even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>>> they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>> problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>>> work that way.
>>>
>>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy,
>>> just people being their usual crazy selves.
>>>
>>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better
>>> include the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to
>>> drug their kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The
>>> school wanted us to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual
>>> people who learn in different ways and at different rates, and I'm not
>>> going to drug him just because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>>
>>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>>> big faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient
>>> triangle at work.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>> criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>> Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>>> rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry
>>> became "fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS,
>>> this decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings
>>> about psychs? Can you confront that possibility?
>>>
>>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on
>>> children (and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just
>>> not at all persuasive or helpful.
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>>
>>>
>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>> news:478b7089@linux...
>>>> Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and
>>>> laugh and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are
>>>> not done by accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for
>>>> drugging 8 million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and
>>>> very powerful narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>>
>>>> Confront it.
>>>>
>>>> Sarah wrote:
>>>>> Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us.
>>>>> "Battlefield Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the
>>>>> psych-iatrists/ologists are not evil aliens from another galaxy . . .
>>>>> or ARE they? (dunt dunt duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . .
>>>>> . hmmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>>> observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>>> generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>>> there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>>>>> clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>>>>> story.
>>>>>
>>>>> But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>>>>> I'm not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled
>>>>> toothpicks at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>>> Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our
>>>>>> bright young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a
>>>>>> campaign to influence the schools and school systems and the teaching
>>>>>> colleges in a big way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>>>>>> Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>>> Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>>>>>> between right and wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>>>>>> children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>>>>>> mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>>>>>> on Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how
>>>>>> much or how well children learn, just that they felt good about it)
>>>>>> and the rest of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think
>>>>>> and behave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>>> coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy
>>>>>> Leary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>>> influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>>>>>> be regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive
>>>>>> attribute of being able to rightly judge people and situations has
>>>>>> been slyly skewed into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other
>>>>>> examples of how illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good
>>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you look around our society and see the delineation between
>>>>>> right and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being
>>>>>> blurred it is no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50
>>>>>> years had that as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>>>>>> problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our
>>>>>> children are our responsibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rick wrote:
>>>>>>> yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>>>>>>> non
>>>>>>> educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah"
>>>>>>> <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know
>>>>>>>> something decided that discipline and competion were harmful to
>>>>>>>> children's mental health.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>> Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94757 is a reply to message #94754] |
Wed, 16 January 2008 00:20 |
Tom
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2008
|
Junior Member |
|
|
"Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>
>"John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>>
>>YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>>
> I really think this is incredibly disrespectful of someone who I happen
>to like a whole lot so I've gotta' speak up here. whoever you are, if you've
>got some problem with someone's belief system and are compelled to slag
them,
>then at least have the integrity to show your own face as well.
I happen to like & respect Bill a lot, as a person, and a
musician, and I am not trying to slag him - only disagree with
him. Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
this forum, ever.
Hopefully they can't get my ISP info from these posts,
otherwise i'm screwed.
Tom (Cruise/not Cruise)
>Not cool.
It's cool, really. Someone's got to do it.
|
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94761 is a reply to message #94757] |
Wed, 16 January 2008 06:49 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Here's an interesting video about psychiatry:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/976/psychiatry_no_sci ence_no_cures.html
Tom wrote:
> "Deej" <noway@jose.net> wrote:
>> "John Travolta" <John@nowayjose.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey! Tom Cruise is a friend of mine! I worked with Tom Cruise!
>>>
>>> YOU sir are NO Tom Cruise!
>>>
>> I really think this is incredibly disrespectful of someone who I happen
>> to like a whole lot so I've gotta' speak up here. whoever you are, if you've
>> got some problem with someone's belief system and are compelled to slag
> them,
>> then at least have the integrity to show your own face as well.
>
> I happen to like & respect Bill a lot, as a person, and a
> musician, and I am not trying to slag him - only disagree with
> him. Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in
> public without their death squads hunting you down, so this is
> the only reason i am posting anonymously, which is probably at
> least part of the reason NO ONE has ever disagreed with him on
> this forum, ever.
>
> Hopefully they can't get my ISP info from these posts,
> otherwise i'm screwed.
>
> Tom (Cruise/not Cruise)
>
>> Not cool.
>
> It's cool, really. Someone's got to do it.
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94807 is a reply to message #94772] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 01:22 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeah, what Jamie and Don said . . . I've played in bands with a couple of
Scientologists, and had a brief relationship with one, and had sometimes
heated arguments about it with all of them (it is a religion, after all, and
you know how I am). The worst thing that ever happened persistent attempts
to get me to come down for some event or another. But they were all very
nice, very talented people, with excellent senses of humor.
So there. Don't be paranoid.
S
Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:478e468d@linux...
>
> I've disagreed with Bill before. Including in this very thread. He was
> gracious about it.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
> DC wrote:
>> "Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>>> Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in public without
>>> their death squads hunting you down, so this is the only reason i am
>>> posting anonymously, which is probably at least part of the reason NO
>>> ONE has ever disagreed with him on this forum, ever.
>>
>> Bollocks.
>>
>> I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.
>>
>> He handles it well.
>>
>> DC
>>
|
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing since [message #94830 is a reply to message #94807] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 13:28 |
Bill L
Messages: 766
Registered: August 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey, thanks for the backup y'all. I actually have not even read the
posts you were replying to. I've been swamped with work, and frankly,
when I saw that they were written by Tom Cruise and John Travolta, I
already knew what they wrote 'cause I saw them last night at the death
squad meeting.
Anywho, did anyone watch this vid? It's a hoot.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/976/psychiatry_no_sci ence_no_cures.html
Sarah wrote:
> Yeah, what Jamie and Don said . . . I've played in bands with a couple of
> Scientologists, and had a brief relationship with one, and had sometimes
> heated arguments about it with all of them (it is a religion, after all, and
> you know how I am). The worst thing that ever happened persistent attempts
> to get me to come down for some event or another. But they were all very
> nice, very talented people, with excellent senses of humor.
>
> So there. Don't be paranoid.
>
> S
>
>
>
> Jamie K" <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote in message news:478e468d@linux...
>> I've disagreed with Bill before. Including in this very thread. He was
>> gracious about it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> DC wrote:
>>> "Tom" <not@chance.com> wrote:
>>>> Problem is, you can't disagree with a Scientologist in public without
>>>> their death squads hunting you down, so this is the only reason i am
>>>> posting anonymously, which is probably at least part of the reason NO
>>>> ONE has ever disagreed with him on this forum, ever.
>>> Bollocks.
>>>
>>> I've disagreed with Bill about Scientology, and more than once.
>>>
>>> He handles it well.
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>
>
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| Re: Let's face it, US public schools system has been failing sincethe 70's. [message #94878 is a reply to message #94706] |
Fri, 18 January 2008 13:40 |
JeffH
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2007
Location: Wamic, OR
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gantt,
We've been on the same path with our son for three years now. His LD
issues stem from brain damage due to chemotherapy at the age of 2. The
school system and the medical community basically said "get him on
drugs" and "sign him up for a group home. Oversimplified, but accurate.
He has now been home schooled for three years. He has defied the
responses we received when we tried to get him help in the public
system. A few areas:
The school said he'd never be able to accomplish math longhand ...use a
calculator. He is now adding and substracting to the thousands. He has
most of his multiplication fact down through ten.
The school he would never be able to write legibly. He is doing so in
both block lettering and cursive.
The school was unsure if he'd be able to read at all. He is now reading
books close to grade level. His reading vocabulary is definitely beyond
his comprehension vocab, but that gives us something to work on!
It takes time and sacrifice, but the results have been beyond
expectation in our case. Our greatest challenge is still working on
interpersonal growth with peers, as it is an area of diability as well
cobined with the lack of a classroom environment.
Be encouraged Gantt.
Jeff
> This has been an interesting thread for me. We just took Jacob, our 10 year
> old son, out of an expensive private school that we couldn't afford because
> he has a multitude of "learning disorders" that they weren't equipped to
> deal with. Our final decision (for now, at least) is to home school him
> (and possibly his little sister depending on how the financial aide negotiations
> go) but we did investigate our local public elementary school. We met with
> the principle who, upon hearing about Jake's LD issues, asked "well, is he
> on medication?". We explained about both his biological parents being alcoholic/drug
> addicts and our trepidation about putting a kid with such a high genetic
> predisposition for addiction on highly addictive drugs such as Ritalin (which
> we just thought was bad speed back in the day) or Adderall (which is just
> another name for Dexidrine, which was GOOD speed back in the day). Her response
> was to look at my wife and say "Well, you don't leave home without your glasses,
> do you?". Sorry. Wrong answer for us. I should also mention that this
> school is a double magnet school with high enough average test scores to
> qualify for two "resource" (special ed) teachers. For over 400 kids. Plus,
> the expensive testing that we had done to prove his special needs weren't
> isn't good enough for Montgomery County. If his teacher decides that he
> has problems they'll have the county people test him. Which means that he
> has to fail twice to get help - once in his old school and again in his new
> school.
>
> Anyway. I suppose I got off the topic! I must have needed to vent.
>
> Gantt
>
> "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>
>>Bill,
>>
>> I have no trouble "confronting" evil or anything else you want me to
>
>
>>confront. I just don't like broad generalities, and you shouldn't either,
>
>
>>since dealing in broad generalities is a characteristic Mr Hubbard has
>>assigned to the antisocial personality.
>>
>> I think it works like this:
>>
>> 1. Drug companies make drugs. Sometimes they even make up diseases to
>
>
>>market the drugs. (Restless leg syndrome? Please . . . ) Sometimes they
>
>
>>even neglect to inform us about the risks and side effects.
>> 2. People have aches, pains, and problems. They want relief, and if
>
>
>>they can get it from a pill, all the better. Much less work that way.
>> 3. Doctors are under pressure to fix people's aches, pains, and
>>problems, and if they can do it with a pill, all the better. Much less
>
> work
>
>>that way.
>>
>> See? It's a perfect kinky three-way relationship. No conspiracy, just
>
>
>>people being their usual crazy selves.
>>
>> But if you're going to have this be a big conspiracy, you better include
>
>
>>the parents and teachers in on it. No one is forcing parents to drug their
>
>
>>kids. I had a problem child, and I didn't drug him. The school wanted
>
> us
>
>>to, and we said, "NO!" Children are all individual people who learn in
>>different ways and at different rates, and I'm not going to drug him just
>
>
>>because they can't figure how to teach him.
>>
>> Some shrinks drug their patients, others don't. I'm not buying the
>
> big
>
>>faceless EVIL. It's just the pharmaceutical-medical-patient triangle at
>
>
>>work.
>>
>> Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association rejected and
>>criticized Dianetics/Scientology, and ever since then the Church of
>>Scientology has been following L. Ron's policy to attack the attackers,
>
>
>>rather than defend the Church. The entire profession of psychiatry became
>
>
>>"fair game." Is it possible that, as a loyal member of the COS, this
>>decades old conflict is an element of your passionate feelings about psychs?
>
>
>>Can you confront that possibility?
>>
>> I agree philosophically about the use of psychiatric drugs on children
>
>
>>(and adults for that matter), but broad generalities are just not at all
>
>
>>persuasive or helpful.
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Sarah(tonin re-uptake inhibitor)
>>
>>
>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message news:478b7089@linux...
>>
>>>Sarah, It's hard to confront evil. Sometimes evil people smile and laugh
>
>
>>>and seem like,they are your friend. But truly evil actions are not done
>
> by
>
>>>accident. Can you think of any word other than "evil" for drugging 8
>>>million helpless and innocent children with a harmful and very powerful
>
>
>>>narcotic? It is NO ACCIDENT and it is VERY EVIL.
>>>
>>>Confront it.
>>>
>>>Sarah wrote:
>>>
>>>>Now, settle down, Bill . . . don't go all Tom Cruise on us. "Battlefield
>
>
>>>>Earth" was just a book and a movie . . . the psych-iatrists/ologists
>
> are
>
>>>>not evil aliens from another galaxy . . . or ARE they? (dunt dunt
>>>>duuunnnnn . . . ) Psychs . . . Psychlos . . . hmmm.
>>>>
>>>>I admire that Scientology usually demands specifics and personal
>>>>observation, but when it comes to psychiatry, it's all broad
>>>>generalities. I know a fair number of psychs through my job, and if
>>>>there's an evil conspiracy to ruin humanity, I think someone forgot to
>
>
>>>>clue them in. Now, the pharmaceutical companies . . . that's another
>
>
>>>>story.
>>>>
>>>>But thanks for the nice compliment. I should tell you, though, that
>
> I'm
>
>>>>not particularly young, and the fact that I can count spilled toothpicks
>
>
>>>>at a glance doesn't make me bright.
>>>>
>>>>I'm an excellent driver.
>>>>
>>>>S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Bill L" <bill@billlorentzen.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:478a535f$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>>>Well done, class! Your answers are all correct, but as usual our bright
>
>
>>>>>young lady is most astute. In the '60s psychiatry started a campaign
>
> to
>
>>>>>influence the schools and school systems and the teaching colleges in
>
> a
>
>>>>>big way.
>>>>>
>>>>>In the '50s at an annual convention, the head of American Psychiatric
>
>
>>>>>Association publicly declared their new goal of creating a "Value
>>>>>Neutral Society". Their aim was to blur and eradicate the distinction
>
>
>>>>>between right and wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>They knew that the sure way to change society was by influencing the
>
>
>>>>>children. Psychiatrists have gradually introduced to our schools the
>
>
>>>>>mass drugging of children and even infants (approximately 8 million
>
> on
>
>>>>>Ritalin type drugs), Outcome Based Education (doesn't matter how much
>
> or
>
>>>>>how well children learn, just that they felt good about it) and the
>
> rest
>
>>>>>of their psuchobabble notions of how people should think and behave.
>>>>>
>>>>>Who was the most influential proponent of the "drug culture"? Not
>>>>>coincidentally, a psychologist and college professor, Dr. Timothy Leary.
>>>>>
>>>>>When you hear someone derided for being "judgmental", that is the
>>>>>influence of psychiatric double speak. Smart, ethical people used to
>
> be
>
>>>>>regarded as showing "good judgment", but now that positive attribute
>
> of
>
>>>>>being able to rightly judge people and situations has been slyly skewed
>
>
>>>>>into a bad thing. I'm sure you have noticed other examples of how
>>>>>illogical psychiatric concepts have replaced good reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>>When you look around our society and see the delineation between right
>
>
>>>>>and wrong, logical and illogical, smart and stupid being blurred it
>
> is
>
>>>>>no accident. Look to the only group who has for over 50 years had that
>
>
>>>>>as their stated aim: psychiatry and psychology.
>>>>>
>>>>>We can fix our schools but we must first recognize the source of the
>
>
>>>>>problem and erase its influence or it will only get worse. Our children
>
>
>>>>>are our responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>rick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>yup, a bunch of egotistical numbnuts. it astounds me the level of
>
> non
>
>>>>>>educated college graduates we're churning out...with pride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:29:11 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think you got it, Don. Psychologists pretending to know something
>
>
>>>>>>>decided that discipline and competion were harmful to children's
>>>>>>>mental health.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:4789a15e$1@linux...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Self esteem replaced achievement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>
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