Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to competewith pricing against PCs
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| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92584 is a reply to message #92578] |
Fri, 09 November 2007 13:21   |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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Hi James,
James McCloskey wrote:
> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple stuff
> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff. Some
> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys have
> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to use
> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This is what
> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there is
> a reality to this.
I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a un
tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>
> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a matter
> of time.
>
Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
span on the market anyways?
Chris
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope not.
>>
>>
>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>
>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Ludwig
>>
>> ADK Pro Audio
>> (859) 635-5762
>> www.adkproaudio.com
>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK Pro Audio
(859) 635-5762
www.adkproaudio.com
chrisl@adkproaudio.com
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| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92586 is a reply to message #92584] |
Fri, 09 November 2007 14:55 |
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Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the Personal
computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present problems
to the masses??
That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger voice
in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>Hi James,
>
>
>James McCloskey wrote:
>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple stuff
>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
Some
>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
have
>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to use
>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This is
what
>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
is
>> a reality to this.
>I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>
>They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a un
>tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>
>>
>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a matter
>> of time.
>>
>
>Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>span on the market anyways?
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope not.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>
>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>
>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>> (859) 635-5762
>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>
>
>--
>Chris Ludwig
>
>ADK Pro Audio
>(859) 635-5762
>www.adkproaudio.com
>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
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| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92589 is a reply to message #92586] |
Fri, 09 November 2007 14:51 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>
> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
> Personal
> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
> problems
> to the masses??
>
Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
these companies make a living from.
I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
etc, and that has been the case for a while now
(with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
I've had a VIA work fairly well).
The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
you have several PC laptop manufacturers
and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
something else. MacBooks are
a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
decision. If general consumer firewire devices
work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
hold that standard for us).
Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for the
same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or a
daw builder.
We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and Apple
get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
savings in order
to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably had
more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability for
large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
(esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
large companies).
This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop with
a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify at
least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than a
laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc, not
just an email checker :-).
Regards,
Dedric
> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
> voice
> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>
> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>Hi James,
>>
>>
>>James McCloskey wrote:
>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>> stuff
>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
> Some
>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
> have
>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to use
>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This is
> what
>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
> is
>>> a reality to this.
>>I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>
>>They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a un
>
>>tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>
>>chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a
>>> matter
>>> of time.
>>>
>>
>>Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>span on the market anyways?
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>
>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>
>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Chris Ludwig
>>
>>ADK Pro Audio
>>(859) 635-5762
>>www.adkproaudio.com
>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>
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| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92597 is a reply to message #92589] |
Fri, 09 November 2007 21:44 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
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I wouldn't write every Apple model off just yet. More research is needed.
There are many assumptions going on here. Less expensive means junk, not
necessarily. Just because it does not work at the moment doesn't mean it
will never work. Boxing and burying all Apple products because RME stuff
doesn't work with the latest iMac models is a little too much. If this new
chip becomes the new standard with manufactures the third party companies
will adapt. Give it time.
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>> Personal
>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>> problems
>> to the masses??
>>
>
>Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>these companies make a living from.
>I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
>guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>(with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>
>The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
>you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
>something else. MacBooks are
>a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>hold that standard for us).
>
>Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
>cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for the
>same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
>paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
>is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
>on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or
a
>daw builder.
>
>We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and Apple
>get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
>in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
>savings in order
>to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
>the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
had
>more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability for
>large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>
>The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
>quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
>hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
>one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>(esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
>large companies).
>
>This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop with
>a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify at
>least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than a
>laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
not
>just an email checker :-).
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>> voice
>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>
>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>Hi James,
>>>
>>>
>>>James McCloskey wrote:
>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>>> stuff
>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>> Some
>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
>> have
>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to
use
>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
is
>> what
>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
>> is
>>>> a reality to this.
>>>I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>
>>>They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a
un
>>
>>>tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>
>>>chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a
>>>> matter
>>>> of time.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>>broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>>specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>span on the market anyways?
>>>
>>>Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>
>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>
>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Chris Ludwig
>>>
>>>ADK Pro Audio
>>>(859) 635-5762
>>>www.adkproaudio.com
>>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>
>
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| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to [message #92598 is a reply to message #92597] |
Fri, 09 November 2007 21:13 |
Dedric Terry
Messages: 788
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi James - I wasn't writing off every model - just the current line, on the
assumption that Apple doesn't change motherboards mid stream once a line is
released (that might change in future revs of the same line of course, and
with a new line - which is probably due around Jan/Feb?).
Audio hardware developers may be able to adapt to support the chip, but the
problem with protocols like this is that when tolerances are outside of what
a device needs to function effectively (i.e. to advertised specs), the only
way to adapt is to lower the performance of the device (which of course
won't float with users). How many RME, MOTU, TC, Presonus, etc users would
settle for 8 channels of audio at 48k instead of 16 at 96k, or 12ms latency
instead of 3? Just an example - I don't know if it equates to such numbers,
if adapting is even an option. Synchronization for streaming audio may be a
complete loss with some chipsets, where data transfers for drives might be
fine. In my experience, it's a matter of whether the device can even be
seen by the system - audio devices are much more demanding on the 1394
protocol than hard drives, unless you are streaming full res video (e.g.
prosumer/professional cameras dumping HD/HDV might have problems as well).
That's a big problem. Doesn't matter whether it's an Apple, Dell, Sony, HP
or Acer computer - incompatible or underperforming hardware is a problem.
That's why every laptop I've bought I had to research the firewire chipset.
Same goes for building a PC - firewire needs to have a known working
chipset, or you are adding a firewire card to replace it and eating up
valuable PCI/PCIe slots.
For consumers, issues like this go largely unnoticed, and that's the
audience computer manufacturers are catering to, so the chipset probably
falls within Apple's specs for firewire performance.
This isn't a unique slight of Apple - it's an issue with all manufacturers,
but there aren't as many options with Apple. So, it's just that this
something to watch out for if planning to buy one of the models with
manufacturing dates listed in the link.
Regards,
Dedric
On 11/9/07 10:44 PM, in article 47353748$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't write every Apple model off just yet. More research is needed.
> There are many assumptions going on here. Less expensive means junk, not
> necessarily. Just because it does not work at the moment doesn't mean it
> will never work. Boxing and burying all Apple products because RME stuff
> doesn't work with the latest iMac models is a little too much. If this new
> chip becomes the new standard with manufactures the third party companies
> will adapt. Give it time.
>
> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>
>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>>> Personal
>>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>
>>> problems
>>> to the masses??
>>>
>>
>> Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>
>> these companies make a living from.
>> I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>> devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
>> guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>
>> etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>> (with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>
>> I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>>
>> The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
>
>> you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>> and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
>
>> something else. MacBooks are
>> a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>
>> until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>> somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>
>> decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>> work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>> decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>> latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>
>> hold that standard for us).
>>
>> Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
>
>> cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for the
>
>> same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
>
>> paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
>
>> is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
>
>> on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or
> a
>> daw builder.
>>
>> We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and Apple
>
>> get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
>
>> in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
>
>> savings in order
>> to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
>
>> the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
> had
>> more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability for
>
>> large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>>
>> The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
>
>> quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>> sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
>
>> hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
>
>> one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>
>> (esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
>
>> large companies).
>>
>> This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop with
>
>> a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify at
>
>> least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than a
>
>> laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>
>> than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
> not
>> just an email checker :-).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>
>>> voice
>>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>>
>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> James McCloskey wrote:
>>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>
>>>>> stuff
>>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>>> Some
>>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
>>> have
>>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to
> use
>>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
> is
>>> what
>>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
>>> is
>>>>> a reality to this.
>>>> I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>> built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>>
>>>> They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>> If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>> should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a
> un
>>>
>>>> tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>>
>>>> chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>> components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>> or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>> do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a
>
>>>>> matter
>>>>> of time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>> makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>>> broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>> firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>>> specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>> span on the market anyways?
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>
>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92604 is a reply to message #92589] |
Sat, 10 November 2007 06:30 |
Kim W
Messages: 165
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hang on... Didn't Apple buy Logic Audio in an effort to capitalize on the
"Pro" Audio market?
So why are Apple now making boxes with 1394 chipsets that
don't work with the "Pro" hardware of choice, in order to save a few lousy
cents on the TI chips?
Whilst I agree that the likes of us audio dudes represent only a tiny
percentage of Apple's custom, I'd be pretty pissed if I got
sucked into jumping
ship back when PC support for Logic ceased and found myself
in this situation.
Phieww!!!
I'm happy with the dual core Gigabyte AM2 mobo I bought for my
next DAW (with 4 pci slots AND a TI chip), for $110 AUSTRALIAN!
(They're probably about $70 in the US). Cheap? yes. Nasty No!)
"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>
>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>> Personal
>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>> problems
>> to the masses??
>>
>
>Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>these companies make a living from.
>I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
>guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>(with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>
>The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
>you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
>something else. MacBooks are
>a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>hold that standard for us).
>
>Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
>cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for the
>same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
>paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
>is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
>on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or
a
>daw builder.
>
>We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and Apple
>get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
>in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
>savings in order
>to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
>the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
had
>more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability for
>large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>
>The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
>quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
>hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
>one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>(esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
>large companies).
>
>This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop with
>a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify at
>least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than a
>laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
not
>just an email checker :-).
>
>Regards,
>Dedric
>
>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>> voice
>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>
>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>Hi James,
>>>
>>>
>>>James McCloskey wrote:
>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>>> stuff
>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>> Some
>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
>> have
>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to
use
>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
is
>> what
>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
>> is
>>>> a reality to this.
>>>I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>
>>>They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a
un
>>
>>>tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>
>>>chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a
>>>> matter
>>>> of time.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>>broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>>specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>span on the market anyways?
>>>
>>>Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>
>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>
>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Chris Ludwig
>>>
>>>ADK Pro Audio
>>>(859) 635-5762
>>>www.adkproaudio.com
>>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92610 is a reply to message #92604] |
Sat, 10 November 2007 11:59 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That's my point as about Apple. Apple has always had the reputaion of playing
nice nice with the Pro Audio market or have lead the way of trends. SCSI,
Firewire..to name a few.
I have two firewire audio devices (M-audio 410 & ProFire Bridge). Both work
flawlessly on any computer I use. However, I prefer using PCI audio cards
for max thru-put.
"Kim W." <no@way.com> wrote:
>
>Hang on... Didn't Apple buy Logic Audio in an effort to capitalize on the
>"Pro" Audio market?
>So why are Apple now making boxes with 1394 chipsets that
>don't work with the "Pro" hardware of choice, in order to save a few lousy
>cents on the TI chips?
>Whilst I agree that the likes of us audio dudes represent only a tiny
>percentage of Apple's custom, I'd be pretty pissed if I got
>sucked into jumping
>ship back when PC support for Logic ceased and found myself
>in this situation.
>Phieww!!!
>I'm happy with the dual core Gigabyte AM2 mobo I bought for my
>next DAW (with 4 pci slots AND a TI chip), for $110 AUSTRALIAN!
>(They're probably about $70 in the US). Cheap? yes. Nasty No!)
>
>
>
>"Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>>> Personal
>>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>
>>> problems
>>> to the masses??
>>>
>>
>>Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>
>>these companies make a living from.
>>I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>>devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
>>guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>
>>etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>>(with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>
>>I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>>
>>The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
>
>>you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>>and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
>
>>something else. MacBooks are
>>a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>
>>until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>>somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>
>>decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>>work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>>decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>>latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>
>>hold that standard for us).
>>
>>Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
>
>>cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for
the
>
>>same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
>
>>paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
>
>>is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
>
>>on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or
>a
>>daw builder.
>>
>>We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and
Apple
>
>>get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
>
>>in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
>
>>savings in order
>>to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
>
>>the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
>had
>>more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability
for
>
>>large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>>
>>The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
>
>>quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>>sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
>
>>hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
>
>>one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>
>>(esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
>
>>large companies).
>>
>>This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop
with
>
>>a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify
at
>
>>least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than
a
>
>>laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>
>>than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
>not
>>just an email checker :-).
>>
>>Regards,
>>Dedric
>>
>>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>
>>> voice
>>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>>
>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>Hi James,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>James McCloskey wrote:
>>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>
>>>>> stuff
>>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>>> Some
>>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you
guys
>>> have
>>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to
>use
>>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
>is
>>> what
>>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
>>> is
>>>>> a reality to this.
>>>>I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>>built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>>
>>>>They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>>If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>>should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a
>un
>>>
>>>>tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>>
>>>>chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>>components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>>or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>>do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just
a
>
>>>>> matter
>>>>> of time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>>makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>>>broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>>firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>>>specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>>span on the market anyways?
>>>>
>>>>Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Chris Ludwig
>>>>
>>>>ADK Pro Audio
>>>>(859) 635-5762
>>>>www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92652 is a reply to message #92598] |
Mon, 12 November 2007 20:15 |
Chris Ludwig
Messages: 868
Registered: May 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Dedric,
Don't worry. Apple will just quietly replace these models with bad
firewire chip sets with new models within the year with no mention of
the issues like many other PC makers do. And none of their new customer
base will ever ask any questions.
Chris
Dedric Terry wrote:
> Hi James - I wasn't writing off every model - just the current line, on the
> assumption that Apple doesn't change motherboards mid stream once a line is
> released (that might change in future revs of the same line of course, and
> with a new line - which is probably due around Jan/Feb?).
>
> Audio hardware developers may be able to adapt to support the chip, but the
> problem with protocols like this is that when tolerances are outside of what
> a device needs to function effectively (i.e. to advertised specs), the only
> way to adapt is to lower the performance of the device (which of course
> won't float with users). How many RME, MOTU, TC, Presonus, etc users would
> settle for 8 channels of audio at 48k instead of 16 at 96k, or 12ms latency
> instead of 3? Just an example - I don't know if it equates to such numbers,
> if adapting is even an option. Synchronization for streaming audio may be a
> complete loss with some chipsets, where data transfers for drives might be
> fine. In my experience, it's a matter of whether the device can even be
> seen by the system - audio devices are much more demanding on the 1394
> protocol than hard drives, unless you are streaming full res video (e.g.
> prosumer/professional cameras dumping HD/HDV might have problems as well).
>
> That's a big problem. Doesn't matter whether it's an Apple, Dell, Sony, HP
> or Acer computer - incompatible or underperforming hardware is a problem.
> That's why every laptop I've bought I had to research the firewire chipset.
> Same goes for building a PC - firewire needs to have a known working
> chipset, or you are adding a firewire card to replace it and eating up
> valuable PCI/PCIe slots.
>
> For consumers, issues like this go largely unnoticed, and that's the
> audience computer manufacturers are catering to, so the chipset probably
> falls within Apple's specs for firewire performance.
>
> This isn't a unique slight of Apple - it's an issue with all manufacturers,
> but there aren't as many options with Apple. So, it's just that this
> something to watch out for if planning to buy one of the models with
> manufacturing dates listed in the link.
>
> Regards,
> Dedric
>
> On 11/9/07 10:44 PM, in article 47353748$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I wouldn't write every Apple model off just yet. More research is needed.
>> There are many assumptions going on here. Less expensive means junk, not
>> necessarily. Just because it does not work at the moment doesn't mean it
>> will never work. Boxing and burying all Apple products because RME stuff
>> doesn't work with the latest iMac models is a little too much. If this new
>> chip becomes the new standard with manufactures the third party companies
>> will adapt. Give it time.
>>
>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>>
>>>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>>>> Personal
>>>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>>>>
>>>> problems
>>>> to the masses??
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>>>
>>> these companies make a living from.
>>> I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>>> devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't a
>>> guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>>>
>>> etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>>> (with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>>>
>>> I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>>>
>>> The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is that
>>>
>>> you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>>> and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather than
>>>
>>> something else. MacBooks are
>>> a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>>>
>>> until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>>> somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>>>
>>> decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>>> work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>>> decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>>> latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>>>
>>> hold that standard for us).
>>>
>>> Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about getting
>>>
>>> cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for the
>>>
>>> same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components without
>>>
>>> paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately, there
>>>
>>> is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to a passed
>>>
>>> on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP or
>>>
>> a
>>
>>> daw builder.
>>>
>>> We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and Apple
>>>
>>> get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a balance
>>>
>>> in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in parts
>>>
>>> savings in order
>>> to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond what
>>>
>>> the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
>>>
>> had
>>
>>> more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability for
>>>
>>> large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>>>
>>> The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get less
>>>
>>> quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>>> sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune. It's
>>>
>>> hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only have
>>>
>>> one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>>>
>>> (esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar for
>>>
>>> large companies).
>>>
>>> This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop with
>>>
>>> a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify at
>>>
>>> least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than a
>>>
>>> laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>>>
>>> than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
>>>
>> not
>>
>>> just an email checker :-).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>>
>>>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>>>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>>>>
>>>> voice
>>>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>>>
>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> James McCloskey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>> Some
>>>>
>>>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you guys
>>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting to
>>>>>>
>> use
>>
>>>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
>>>>>>
>> is
>>
>>>> what
>>>>
>>>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways, there
>>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>>> a reality to this.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>>> built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>>> If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>>> should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used a
>>>>>
>> un
>>
>>>>> tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>>>>
>>>>> chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>>> components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>>> or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>>> do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> matter
>>>>>> of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>>> makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells the
>>>>> broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>>> firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop an
>>>>> specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>>> span on the market anyways?
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>
>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>
>
>
--
Chris Ludwig
ADK
chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
(859) 635-5762
|
|
|
|
| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92663 is a reply to message #92652] |
Tue, 13 November 2007 09:33 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Who knows, you maybe right, but I think your making assumptions that the chip
is bad.
Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>Hi Dedric,
>Don't worry. Apple will just quietly replace these models with bad
>firewire chip sets with new models within the year with no mention of
>the issues like many other PC makers do. And none of their new customer
>base will ever ask any questions.
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>Dedric Terry wrote:
>> Hi James - I wasn't writing off every model - just the current line, on
the
>> assumption that Apple doesn't change motherboards mid stream once a line
is
>> released (that might change in future revs of the same line of course,
and
>> with a new line - which is probably due around Jan/Feb?).
>>
>> Audio hardware developers may be able to adapt to support the chip, but
the
>> problem with protocols like this is that when tolerances are outside of
what
>> a device needs to function effectively (i.e. to advertised specs), the
only
>> way to adapt is to lower the performance of the device (which of course
>> won't float with users). How many RME, MOTU, TC, Presonus, etc users
would
>> settle for 8 channels of audio at 48k instead of 16 at 96k, or 12ms latency
>> instead of 3? Just an example - I don't know if it equates to such numbers,
>> if adapting is even an option. Synchronization for streaming audio may
be a
>> complete loss with some chipsets, where data transfers for drives might
be
>> fine. In my experience, it's a matter of whether the device can even
be
>> seen by the system - audio devices are much more demanding on the 1394
>> protocol than hard drives, unless you are streaming full res video (e.g.
>> prosumer/professional cameras dumping HD/HDV might have problems as well).
>>
>> That's a big problem. Doesn't matter whether it's an Apple, Dell, Sony,
HP
>> or Acer computer - incompatible or underperforming hardware is a problem.
>> That's why every laptop I've bought I had to research the firewire chipset.
>> Same goes for building a PC - firewire needs to have a known working
>> chipset, or you are adding a firewire card to replace it and eating up
>> valuable PCI/PCIe slots.
>>
>> For consumers, issues like this go largely unnoticed, and that's the
>> audience computer manufacturers are catering to, so the chipset probably
>> falls within Apple's specs for firewire performance.
>>
>> This isn't a unique slight of Apple - it's an issue with all manufacturers,
>> but there aren't as many options with Apple. So, it's just that this
>> something to watch out for if planning to buy one of the models with
>> manufacturing dates listed in the link.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dedric
>>
>> On 11/9/07 10:44 PM, in article 47353748$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I wouldn't write every Apple model off just yet. More research is needed.
>>> There are many assumptions going on here. Less expensive means junk,
not
>>> necessarily. Just because it does not work at the moment doesn't mean
it
>>> will never work. Boxing and burying all Apple products because RME stuff
>>> doesn't work with the latest iMac models is a little too much. If this
new
>>> chip becomes the new standard with manufactures the third party companies
>>> will adapt. Give it time.
>>>
>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>>>>> Personal
>>>>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>>>>>
>>>>> problems
>>>>> to the masses??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>>>>
>>>> these companies make a living from.
>>>> I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>>>> devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't
a
>>>> guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>>>>
>>>> etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>>>> (with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>>>>
>>>> I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>>>>
>>>> The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is
that
>>>>
>>>> you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>>>> and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather
than
>>>>
>>>> something else. MacBooks are
>>>> a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>>>>
>>>> until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>>>> somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>>>>
>>>> decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>>>> work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>>>> decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>>>> latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>>>>
>>>> hold that standard for us).
>>>>
>>>> Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about
getting
>>>>
>>>> cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for
the
>>>>
>>>> same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components
without
>>>>
>>>> paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately,
there
>>>>
>>>> is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to
a passed
>>>>
>>>> on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP
or
>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>> daw builder.
>>>>
>>>> We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and
Apple
>>>>
>>>> get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a
balance
>>>>
>>>> in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in
parts
>>>>
>>>> savings in order
>>>> to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond
what
>>>>
>>>> the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
>>>>
>>> had
>>>
>>>> more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability
for
>>>>
>>>> large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>>>>
>>>> The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get
less
>>>>
>>>> quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>>>> sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune.
It's
>>>>
>>>> hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only
have
>>>>
>>>> one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>>>>
>>>> (esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar
for
>>>>
>>>> large companies).
>>>>
>>>> This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop
with
>>>>
>>>> a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify
at
>>>>
>>>> least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than
a
>>>>
>>>> laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>>>>
>>>> than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>> just an email checker :-).
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dedric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>>>>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>>>>>
>>>>> voice
>>>>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James McCloskey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Some
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you
guys
>>>>>>>
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting
to
>>>>>>>
>>> use
>>>
>>>>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
>>>>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>>> what
>>>>>
>>>>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways,
there
>>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>>> a reality to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>>>> built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>>>> If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>>>> should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used
a
>>>>>>
>>> un
>>>
>>>>>> tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>>>>>
>>>>>> chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>>>> components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>>>> or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>>>> do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just
a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>> of time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>>>> makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells
the
>>>>>> broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>>>> firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop
an
>>>>>> specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>>>> span on the market anyways?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Chris Ludwig
>ADK
>chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>(859) 635-5762
|
|
|
|
| Re: FYI for all Apple users;Welcome to the world of trying to compete [message #92684 is a reply to message #92663] |
Wed, 14 November 2007 02:01 |
rick
Messages: 1976
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
they did it with the fw800 a few years back.
On 14 Nov 2007 03:33:39 +1000, "James McCloskey"
<excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Who knows, you maybe right, but I think your making assumptions that the chip
>is bad.
>
>Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>Hi Dedric,
>>Don't worry. Apple will just quietly replace these models with bad
>>firewire chip sets with new models within the year with no mention of
>>the issues like many other PC makers do. And none of their new customer
>
>>base will ever ask any questions.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>Dedric Terry wrote:
>>> Hi James - I wasn't writing off every model - just the current line, on
>the
>>> assumption that Apple doesn't change motherboards mid stream once a line
>is
>>> released (that might change in future revs of the same line of course,
>and
>>> with a new line - which is probably due around Jan/Feb?).
>>>
>>> Audio hardware developers may be able to adapt to support the chip, but
>the
>>> problem with protocols like this is that when tolerances are outside of
>what
>>> a device needs to function effectively (i.e. to advertised specs), the
>only
>>> way to adapt is to lower the performance of the device (which of course
>>> won't float with users). How many RME, MOTU, TC, Presonus, etc users
>would
>>> settle for 8 channels of audio at 48k instead of 16 at 96k, or 12ms latency
>>> instead of 3? Just an example - I don't know if it equates to such numbers,
>>> if adapting is even an option. Synchronization for streaming audio may
>be a
>>> complete loss with some chipsets, where data transfers for drives might
>be
>>> fine. In my experience, it's a matter of whether the device can even
>be
>>> seen by the system - audio devices are much more demanding on the 1394
>>> protocol than hard drives, unless you are streaming full res video (e.g.
>>> prosumer/professional cameras dumping HD/HDV might have problems as well).
>>>
>>> That's a big problem. Doesn't matter whether it's an Apple, Dell, Sony,
>HP
>>> or Acer computer - incompatible or underperforming hardware is a problem.
>>> That's why every laptop I've bought I had to research the firewire chipset.
>>> Same goes for building a PC - firewire needs to have a known working
>>> chipset, or you are adding a firewire card to replace it and eating up
>>> valuable PCI/PCIe slots.
>>>
>>> For consumers, issues like this go largely unnoticed, and that's the
>>> audience computer manufacturers are catering to, so the chipset probably
>>> falls within Apple's specs for firewire performance.
>>>
>>> This isn't a unique slight of Apple - it's an issue with all manufacturers,
>>> but there aren't as many options with Apple. So, it's just that this
>>> something to watch out for if planning to buy one of the models with
>>> manufacturing dates listed in the link.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dedric
>>>
>>> On 11/9/07 10:44 PM, in article 47353748$1@linux, "James McCloskey"
>>> <excelsm@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't write every Apple model off just yet. More research is needed.
>>>> There are many assumptions going on here. Less expensive means junk,
>not
>>>> necessarily. Just because it does not work at the moment doesn't mean
>it
>>>> will never work. Boxing and burying all Apple products because RME stuff
>>>> doesn't work with the latest iMac models is a little too much. If this
>new
>>>> chip becomes the new standard with manufactures the third party companies
>>>> will adapt. Give it time.
>>>>
>>>> "Dedric Terry" <dterry@keyofd.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4734d759$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok, I'm confused. Why would Apple, Dell, Sony, Toshiba or any of the
>>>>>> Personal
>>>>>> computer maker/vendor make use an item knowing that it would present
>>>>>>
>>>>>> problems
>>>>>> to the masses??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Because audio users aren't anywhere close to being part of the "masses"
>>>>>
>>>>> these companies make a living from.
>>>>> I'm sure the chipset works with a reasonable range of general firewire
>>>>> devices (drives, consumer camcorders, etc), but imho, firewire isn't
>a
>>>>> guaranteed reliable solution for audio if tolerances are sloppy in chipsets,
>>>>>
>>>>> etc, and that has been the case for a while now
>>>>> (with TI being about the only one of any significant reliability, though
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had a VIA work fairly well).
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing different between the MacBook Pros and a PC laptop is
>that
>>>>>
>>>>> you have several PC laptop manufacturers
>>>>> and models to choose from and find the ones with TI chipsets rather
>than
>>>>>
>>>>> something else. MacBooks are
>>>>> a single model line. Users are stuck with the apparently inferior chipset
>>>>>
>>>>> until the next line, and only a hope that Apple will
>>>>> somehow pay attention to the audio community when make the next chipset
>>>>>
>>>>> decision. If general consumer firewire devices
>>>>> work fine, there is no reference point to convince them it was a bad
>>>>> decision. Streaming 16 channels of 96k audio at 1.5ms
>>>>> latency just isn't on the radar for computer companies (only daw builders
>>>>>
>>>>> hold that standard for us).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey James - regarding the cost of parts issue, it's never been about
>getting
>>>>>
>>>>> cheaper parts (for me at least) - it's about getting quality parts for
>the
>>>>>
>>>>> same price as inferior parts, or at least getting quality components
>without
>>>>>
>>>>> paying an extra premium. However, as you've noted before accurately,
>there
>>>>>
>>>>> is a difference between buying parts from Newegg at what amounts to
>a passed
>>>>>
>>>>> on bulk price and building your own, vs. buying from Apple, Dell, HP
>or
>>>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>> daw builder.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're paying labor in prebuilt systems, though companies like Dell and
>Apple
>>>>>
>>>>> get even better deals on parts than we do from Newegg, so there is a
>balance
>>>>>
>>>>> in there. Of course the manufacturers have to make up labor costs in
>parts
>>>>>
>>>>> savings in order
>>>>> to keep costs from killing too much profit, or pushing prices beyond
>what
>>>>>
>>>>> the market will bear. Apple's decision to go with that chipset probably
>>>>>
>>>> had
>>>>
>>>>> more to do with price, power rating with their board, and availability
>for
>>>>>
>>>>> large quantities, than whether it worked with firewire audio interfaces.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is I personally don't like the idea of paying more to get
>less
>>>>>
>>>>> quality, but that is the case with many off the shelf computers,
>>>>> sometimes they are Dells, sometimes Apples, etc - no one is immune.
> It's
>>>>>
>>>>> hit or miss when someone else chooses the parts for you and you only
>have
>>>>>
>>>>> one option, though, and that's where it really starts to hurt consumers
>>>>>
>>>>> (esp. audio people like us that don't amount to a blip on the radar
>for
>>>>>
>>>>> large companies).
>>>>>
>>>>> This pretty much kills any consideration for replacing my Vista laptop
>with
>>>>>
>>>>> a MacBook, unfortunately. It would have been too expensive to justify
>at
>>>>>
>>>>> least for the time being (too many other things to put money into than
>a
>>>>>
>>>>> laptop), but it has been a backup plan to get more use out of the laptop
>>>>>
>>>>> than Vista or Linux would afford (e.g. as a slave comp for VSTi's, etc,
>>>>>
>>>> not
>>>>
>>>>> just an email checker :-).
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dedric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That does not make sense to me. But, a handful of Pro Audio manufactuers
>>>>>> gear have problems? Maybe the Pro Audio vendors needs to have a bigger
>>>>>>
>>>>>> voice
>>>>>> in the design process in order to assure a smooth transition..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James McCloskey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This kills me. Some of you guys for years have insisted that Apple
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>>> is no better than cheap PC MOBOs. That they use cheap inferior stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of you guys have complained about Apple costing more. Some of you
>guys
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> said that you want cheaper Apple products. Now Apple is starting
>to
>>>>>>>>
>>>> use
>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheaper components which will mean lower prices in the future. This
>>>>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you guys wanted, cheaper, remember? You can't have it both ways,
>there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a reality to this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not one of "you guys". I have used Macs and PCs for years. Have
>>>>>>> built and/or repaired PCs and Apple machines for years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They do not need to use "cheaper" parts to make the prices cheaper.
>>>>>>> If Apple is going to cut corners like this then their hardware should
>>>>>>> should be no more than a Dell or E-machine. The fact that they used
>a
>>>>>>>
>>>> un
>>>>
>>>>>>> tested but cheaper chip instead of the proven to be compatible firewire
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> chip set is very lame. Apple have consistently used good quality
>>>>>>> components over the years the same way some a high-end custom PC maker
>>>>>>> or a DIY person that wanted to good quality and reliable machine would
>>>>>>> do. Any of these users main concerns are reliability and compatibility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure RME will get drivers to work with the new chip, it's just
>a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>> of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why should RME, MOTU, Presonus, TC, Focusrite, various hard drive
>>>>>>> makers, etc have to fix it? You would think the company that sells
>the
>>>>>>> broken product would fix it? Maybe they can fix it with an OS or
>>>>>>> firmware update so that hardware developers won't have to develop
>an
>>>>>>> specific driver for a malfunctioning hardware that has a limited life
>>>>>>> span on the market anyways?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig <chrisl@adkproaudio.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nothing more PC like than trying to cut corners on you product than
>>>>>>>>> using cheaper components. Are Apple going the way of DEll? Let hope
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://discussions.apple.com/search.jspa?objID=c1&search =Go&q=Agere
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Chris Ludwig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ADK Pro Audio
>>>>>>> (859) 635-5762
>>>>>>> www.adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>> chrisl@adkproaudio.com
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Chris Ludwig
>>ADK
>>chrisl@adkproaudio.com <mailto:chrisl@adkproaudio.com>
>>www.adkproaudio.com <http://www.adkproaudio.com/>
>>(859) 635-5762
|
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