Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? (Mixing in Paris)
| Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108066] |
Fri, 31 January 2014 12:52  |
JohnG
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2013
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Hello All,
I am trying to improve my mixing skills in Paris; I track and mix in Paris and master in wavelab.
I read a passing comment in this forum that mixes in Paris tend to have a "build up" of frequencies somewhere in the mid and or upper bass frequencies (not sure where, 300-800 hz?)
Do any of you that are quite experienced and produce high quality mixes in paris have any comment on this?
1) first of all, is this true?
2) If it is, do you compensate for it in any particular way in the mix?
3) ARe all instruments affected or mostly those with a fundamental frequency in the mid to upper bass range?
Trying to figure out if this is something I need to pay particular attention to with Paris or if I should just work at training my ears and it will work itself out (kind of like getting used to the sound of your room, etc).
Thanks for any comments or suggestions!
John
John, Twin Cities, MN
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108067 is a reply to message #108066] |
Fri, 31 January 2014 14:53  |
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I'm sure more skilled mixers will chime in with specific insights (I'm just a composer/producer/arranger type) but I can confirm that's what more than one experienced mixer has said.
"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108071 is a reply to message #108069] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 08:51 |
JohnG
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2013
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Thanks Kerry and Don for chiming in. I love how you guys are passionate enough to share your insights.
Don, when you try another mix in paris, let me know what you think about the upper bass issue. I'm sure after working in another system for a while and then going back, you'll have a fresh perspective on the differences.
Also speaking of reaper, I am thinking about switching to that in the future, if my XP machine breaks down again. Last summer and fall I had some issues that involved replacing parts that broke etc and it took months to get it back to a semi stable state!
The expense of new converters is what is preventing me from trying this sooner. Any suggestions on a A/D converter that could do 8-12 channels and sound decent at around 1000 to 2000 us dollars? IT could be converters only or pre amp converter combo (prefer just converters as I have a mixing board and some preamps I can use in front of it). What type of interface would work best in newer computers, firewire? USB, something else?
Also how are you liking reaper?
Thanks again guys!
John, Twin Cities, MN
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108078 is a reply to message #108077] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 09:25 |
JohnG
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2013
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Thanks again Ted and Kerry for the additional comments.
The insights are helpful.
I will likely set up a new computer in the next 1-2 years with reaper, maybe, and a new interface. It will be interesting to hear the differences.
Would reaper be a good choice given my workflow and features I want:
1)I record drum kits, electric bass,electric and acoustic guitars (via mic and occasionally DI), vocals, occasional synth/keyboard (rock, pop, alternative mostly).
2) I would like a program that allows me more creativity in the mixing realm, signal routing, creatively using effects, easily copying tracks while maintaining sync etc.(lots of effects if needed (I assume the more CPU and RAM power the better).
3) I would like to stick with PC.
Thanks!
John
John, Twin Cities, MN
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108079 is a reply to message #108078] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 09:43 |
Ted Gerber
Messages: 705
Registered: January 2009
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Senior Member |
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Hey John
Regarding interfaces, I have used or still use RME UFX, UAD Apollo, Metric Halo ULN-8 & Presonus Firestudio. By far, the best value - bang for the buck - is the Presonus stuff.
I liked the UFX and and it had more ins and outs in one box, but was also 3 times the price. The Metric Halo is superb and comes with really good dedicated channel strip in software, but it's 6 times the price. The UAD Apollo is a little out of the price range quoted, and is best used by those who are committed to the UA plugin world.
The Presonus Firestudio project is fantastic for its preamps; conversion and routing at a fraction of the cost. You can buy 2 of them (16 analog I/O) for less than $1000 and they come with the light version of Studio One, which is their DAW, designed new from the ground up by the original designers of CuBase/Nuendo.
I can't recommend it enough.
Having said that, speaking of DAWs, Reaper by itself is cheaper than Studio One Pro (though Studio One Pro has an integrated Mastering suite that's very efficient), and has some tweaks that make it run well with Paris, if you still want to do that...
Ted
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108083 is a reply to message #108066] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 15:58 |
Wayne
Messages: 206
Registered: July 2008
Location: Las Vegas
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Disclaimer - I have not tracked much in ProTools. My observations are based on tracks provided to me via clients PT sessions. Tracks I've received were from 2 to 16 channel 3rd party interfaces. So PT is playback only, but Paris is both 8-in MEC and s/pdif out. Playback outboard system is the same, s/pdif out of each Paris and M-Audio interfaces to Benchmark DAC-1 to Adams A7s.
My take. I find a huge difference between Paris (in the box) and ProTools 9 (in the box). Each system is using just the included software with no plugins.
The difference I find is Paris has a richness, warmth and openness that seems to surrounds the mix but is muddy from 90-250hz. Things just float around in this area. I find it hard to get a distinctive punchiness or separation in this area. I do love the highs. I can push most anything above 10-14K and it never gets harsh.
PT has a sterile, dry, lifeless and one dimensional feel but has clarity in the lows and low mids. Pushing the highs just make them harsher. Using PT with all of its proprietary outboard gear probably changes PTs sound. PT is more user friendly.
Just my observations.
Wayne
Audio-Audition Digital Studios - Las Vegas, NV
www.audio-audition.com
[Updated on: Sun, 02 February 2014 16:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108094 is a reply to message #108090] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 18:37 |
Wayne
Messages: 206
Registered: July 2008
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Doug, I feel that it is the improved capabilities.
For me it's midi and a built in click track. I've never had any luck with Paris midi. Period. So PT is my sequencing software by choice. Dragging and dropping drum loops (EZdrummer in my case) to snap to the bars and beats anywhere on the playing field is easy in most sequence software. And then very editable in the midi editor. Paris just frustrates me and I will not try it in front of a client. I spent to many hours attempting it on my own and with the help from users in this forum. Still no-go.
Audio Click tracks in Paris is doable but not very user friendly. ie, I set the meter and time in the project window. Use bars and beats in the editor, snap to grid on. Drop in a pre-recorded single hit closed hi-hat audio at time zero. Copy and paste multiple (usually 200-400) and were good. Client and I do a trial run thru. Nope, not quite right. So it's undo paste, change time in the project window, back to the editor and multiple paste again. OK now the client is happy. Oh-oh, client not so happy, he/she wants the time a little slower. Ctrl-Z, change time, Ctrl-L. Let's record it again. Doesn't feel professional to me.
The click in PT moves with the time change. If any audio is recorded is shifts too using "elastic" audio format. Now there are artifacts but most our initial recordings are rough/dump files. We're just writing a structure. Very easy in PT. Prior to PT, I used Cakewalk and work with clients using Ableton and Sonar and PT.
When I record band audio, I love Paris. Very forgiving and predictable. I like the mixer, especially the trim, graphic EQ (v3.0), the aux layout and the global mixer. All the different gain stages or insert capabilities are wonderful in post mixdown. But primarily because clients love the warm sound right out of the box. For some genres it may not be quite as necessary.
Also lacking in Paris is auto-latency compensation. Fortunately, I only use Paris efx's on the aux's during record so not a problem. Zero to a couple of samples only. However, once I had no-Limit on the global insert and forgot about it and the client said there was an echo during an overdub. I bypassed it, problem gone.
Occasionally, I'll get a client who has a keyboard sequence with drums. He/she will tell me their meter/time and I'll preset the time in Paris. Then I'll create 8 intro clicks as explained above for him/her to start their keyboard and then record it in Paris. If he/she is off from the start, (I line up to snare hits) a little nudge to or fro to the bars and beats and wha-la, I can cut and paste and snap to the grid to my hearts desire.
So for me, Paris for straight up audio recording and PT for most any sequencing.
Wayne
Audio-Audition Digital Studios - Las Vegas, NV
www.audio-audition.com
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108095 is a reply to message #108083] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 18:45 |
JohnG
Messages: 57
Registered: April 2013
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Wayne, Thanks for your observations.
I have to say that my limited experience with the sound of pro tools in the box corroborates what you describe, but it was 6-8 years ago.
Before I started recording my own stuff, I had an engineer record our band by tracking directly into protools, with (probably some lower end A/D converters and preamps, and of course mics, the room, mixing skill, etc all come into play), so I realize it is not an apples to apples comparison but......
The resulting mixes had very good separation, strong stereo placement, and clarity of each instrument but also very sterile and dry sounding. And "Flat" sounding, not in the pitch sense but just lacking depth and full frequency range is what it sounded like to me.
Thanks again for your take!
John
John, Twin Cities, MN
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108097 is a reply to message #108094] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 20:57 |
Doug Wellington
Messages: 251
Registered: June 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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| Wayne wrote on Mon, 03 February 2014 19:37 | For me it's midi and a built in click track.
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Ah, gotcha. Yep, MIDI in PARIS sucks. Period.
I used to do most of my work in Logic or Digital Performer. DP was especially good for film scoring. I've got a lot of sample libraries and virtual instruments, so for that kind of work, I didn't touch my PARIS rig at all. In the last couple years I've been on an anti-Apple kick, so I was spending most of my time with Sibelius and Sonar, but once AVID got rid of the Sibelius team, I just couldn't use it any more, and once Gibson announced that it was buying Cakewalk, that really took the wind out of the sails. Sigh...
I really haven't been doing any scoring lately, and my attention has switched back to the modular stuff, so I'm back into straight ahead recording where PARIS rules.
| Quote: | When I record band audio, I love Paris.
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Yes, same here. I've always treated PARIS as a tape recorder. It started out as a replacement for my VS-1880 and VSR recorders (I had three of them in my Roland VM-7200 rig) and took over as a replacement for large format tape. I've done a lot of live recording with my PARIS rig, and I think it really shines for that and mixing.
http://www.parisfaqs.com
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| Re: Do Paris Mixes tend to sound Upper Bass Heavy? [message #108098 is a reply to message #108097] |
Tue, 04 February 2014 09:35 |
excelav
Messages: 2130
Registered: July 2005
Location: Metro Detroit
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Senior Member |
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So, this brings me back to the same old questions about Paris. Are the Paris A to D converters a big part of the Paris sound or not? In the Past DJ and others used modern Word Clock generators to tighten up the bass and to give it more shimmer on top with good results. The Apogee Big Ben being a solid choice out of many. So is it fair to compare 1997 Paris clocking to today's hardware with better clocking? Obviously a better clock will improve the Paris converters, but how much? Can Paris with a better clock stand toe to toe with today's hardware? It would be nice to see and hear Paris up against modern hardware and use the same clock for both and compare them. For most stuff I think Paris would sound better. Your thoughts? The big question again, are the A to D converters a part of the Paris sound?
In the past Chuck Duffy stated that saturation is going on at different stages in the ESP2 chip. Do you think the Paris sound is a result of the ESP2 chips? Do you guys think that you can bypass the Paris A to D converters and still get the same Paris sound? For the guys that are using Paris just for summing and mix down, do you think you are getting the same or better results by importing tracks into Paris as opposed to recording with the Paris A to D converters?
From Steve The Art Guy's archives of Chuck's post.
Chuck - the Paris Magic Sound
http://www.svn.net/artguy/paris.notes/3-10-03
Your thoughts?
James
[Updated on: Tue, 04 February 2014 09:49] Report message to a moderator |
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