Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » OT: The trouble with learning jazz...
| OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67140] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 18:38  |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as I'd
like to. ;o)
So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so good.
;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,
to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to play.
And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy
what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that particular
recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to learn
the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
"as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing... ...would
be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.
I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort
into improving my chart reading skills...
Cheers,
Kim.
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67145 is a reply to message #67140] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 19:18  |
Edna Sloan
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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You might try googling for jazz fake books. These usually have melody,
lyric, and chords.
Edna
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>
>
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
I'd
> like to. ;o)
>
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
play.
>
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
....would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
jazz.
>
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67147 is a reply to message #67146] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 20:09 |
Edna Sloan
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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We used to use them for gigs when we didnt already have an arranagement of a
requested tune. So they came in handy for that. Jazz theory books would be
a help to you as well. I used to have John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation
series (destroyed in a recent house flood) which was used in NTSU jazz
classes (a big school for jazz in Denton, TX), and a book by Ed Haerle (a
teacher there) on jazz voicings that was very good, but that was some time
ago, may'be something better available now. And of course just listening to
the kind of jazz you want to get into along with theory will help you to
understand whats going on musically, which, IMHO, is more important than the
music reading.
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:444841f4$1@linux...
>
> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
> >You might try googling for jazz fake books.
>
> I actually have a copy of "The Real Book" already, which of course has
much
> of that. I guess over the years I've been a sight reading slacker. ;o) I
> mean it wouldn't take ttthhhhhaaaat much effort I guess to learn using a
> method like that, but I'm just not all that comfortable with it, given I'm
> not familiar with the style, and don't know the tunes. I have learned
quite
> a number of classical peices by sight reading, but at least I have
classical
> training.
>
> ...and it takes me much longer than learning off a recording. Though I
guess
> that's also because normally the peices I learn from recordings are very
> simple pop tunes.
>
> I can see I'm going to have to resort to The Real Book and other fake
books
> in the end anyhow. This is just my last cry out saying "Nooooo, I don't
want
> to have to put any effort in!!". ;o)
>
> ...but obviously if I want to move forward I'm going to have to get off
> my lazy butt and work on my chops. ;o)
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67148 is a reply to message #67147] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 20:29 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for those book suggestions. I'll definately google them when I get
a chance. I do need to polish up on some jazz theory. The extent of my jazz
knowledge is basically a few tips from my High School music teacher back
in the late 80's, who did study jazz at University. I could certainly use
some info on the finer points.
Certainly, natively I learn by ear. I learned via the Japanese Suzuki method.
So my first point of call will be to listen to the style at least that I
want to play, which is also why i've so heavily relied on doing things by
ear over time. I already put the call out for a good jazz theory book last
christmas, and my brother bought me a book, which is probably a good start,
called "What to listen for in jazz". Obviously he figures, since I'm such
a "by ear" muso, that that would be a good approach. It comes with a CD full
of jazz classics, and takes you through some of the tricks they use, and
I had forgotten about that... it's on the bookshelf somewhere... I must
dig it out and have a listen.
But I also need a good theory book. I searched the web, and there was some
site called "learnjazzpiano.com" or something, which had some theory, but
it really didn't cover anything of note that I didn't know.
Half my problem is that I'm just lazy. ;o) If I bother to put some effort
in I'm sure I'll start to make ground fast.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>We used to use them for gigs when we didnt already have an arranagement
of a
>requested tune. So they came in handy for that. Jazz theory books would
be
>a help to you as well. I used to have John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation
>series (destroyed in a recent house flood) which was used in NTSU jazz
>classes (a big school for jazz in Denton, TX), and a book by Ed Haerle
(a
>teacher there) on jazz voicings that was very good, but that was some time
>ago, may'be something better available now. And of course just listening
to
>the kind of jazz you want to get into along with theory will help you to
>understand whats going on musically, which, IMHO, is more important than
the
>music reading.
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:444841f4$1@linux...
>>
>> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>> >You might try googling for jazz fake books.
>>
>> I actually have a copy of "The Real Book" already, which of course has
>much
>> of that. I guess over the years I've been a sight reading slacker. ;o)
I
>> mean it wouldn't take ttthhhhhaaaat much effort I guess to learn using
a
>> method like that, but I'm just not all that comfortable with it, given
I'm
>> not familiar with the style, and don't know the tunes. I have learned
>quite
>> a number of classical peices by sight reading, but at least I have
>classical
>> training.
>>
>> ...and it takes me much longer than learning off a recording. Though I
>guess
>> that's also because normally the peices I learn from recordings are very
>> simple pop tunes.
>>
>> I can see I'm going to have to resort to The Real Book and other fake
>books
>> in the end anyhow. This is just my last cry out saying "Nooooo, I don't
>want
>> to have to put any effort in!!". ;o)
>>
>> ...but obviously if I want to move forward I'm going to have to get off
>> my lazy butt and work on my chops. ;o)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67151 is a reply to message #67147] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 21:13 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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Aha, look what I found...
http://www.jazzpracticeloops.com/about/index.htm
Hmm... this could be just what I'm looking for. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>We used to use them for gigs when we didnt already have an arranagement
of a
>requested tune. So they came in handy for that. Jazz theory books would
be
>a help to you as well. I used to have John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation
>series (destroyed in a recent house flood) which was used in NTSU jazz
>classes (a big school for jazz in Denton, TX), and a book by Ed Haerle
(a
>teacher there) on jazz voicings that was very good, but that was some time
>ago, may'be something better available now. And of course just listening
to
>the kind of jazz you want to get into along with theory will help you to
>understand whats going on musically, which, IMHO, is more important than
the
>music reading.
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:444841f4$1@linux...
>>
>> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>> >You might try googling for jazz fake books.
>>
>> I actually have a copy of "The Real Book" already, which of course has
>much
>> of that. I guess over the years I've been a sight reading slacker. ;o)
I
>> mean it wouldn't take ttthhhhhaaaat much effort I guess to learn using
a
>> method like that, but I'm just not all that comfortable with it, given
I'm
>> not familiar with the style, and don't know the tunes. I have learned
>quite
>> a number of classical peices by sight reading, but at least I have
>classical
>> training.
>>
>> ...and it takes me much longer than learning off a recording. Though I
>guess
>> that's also because normally the peices I learn from recordings are very
>> simple pop tunes.
>>
>> I can see I'm going to have to resort to The Real Book and other fake
>books
>> in the end anyhow. This is just my last cry out saying "Nooooo, I don't
>want
>> to have to put any effort in!!". ;o)
>>
>> ...but obviously if I want to move forward I'm going to have to get off
>> my lazy butt and work on my chops. ;o)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67152 is a reply to message #67148] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 21:17 |
Kevin Hennessey
Messages: 3
Registered: November 2005
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Junior Member |
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Check out this site under Jazz Theory.
http://petethomas.co.uk/
Kevin
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:44485195$1@linux...
>
>
> Thanks for those book suggestions. I'll definately google them when I get
> a chance. I do need to polish up on some jazz theory. The extent of my
> jazz
> knowledge is basically a few tips from my High School music teacher back
> in the late 80's, who did study jazz at University. I could certainly use
> some info on the finer points.
>
> Certainly, natively I learn by ear. I learned via the Japanese Suzuki
> method.
> So my first point of call will be to listen to the style at least that I
> want to play, which is also why i've so heavily relied on doing things by
> ear over time. I already put the call out for a good jazz theory book last
> christmas, and my brother bought me a book, which is probably a good
> start,
> called "What to listen for in jazz". Obviously he figures, since I'm such
> a "by ear" muso, that that would be a good approach. It comes with a CD
> full
> of jazz classics, and takes you through some of the tricks they use, and
> I had forgotten about that... it's on the bookshelf somewhere... I must
> dig it out and have a listen.
>
> But I also need a good theory book. I searched the web, and there was some
> site called "learnjazzpiano.com" or something, which had some theory, but
> it really didn't cover anything of note that I didn't know.
>
> Half my problem is that I'm just lazy. ;o) If I bother to put some effort
> in I'm sure I'll start to make ground fast.
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>>We used to use them for gigs when we didnt already have an arranagement
> of a
>>requested tune. So they came in handy for that. Jazz theory books would
> be
>>a help to you as well. I used to have John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation
>>series (destroyed in a recent house flood) which was used in NTSU jazz
>>classes (a big school for jazz in Denton, TX), and a book by Ed Haerle
> (a
>>teacher there) on jazz voicings that was very good, but that was some time
>>ago, may'be something better available now. And of course just listening
> to
>>the kind of jazz you want to get into along with theory will help you to
>>understand whats going on musically, which, IMHO, is more important than
> the
>>music reading.
>>
>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:444841f4$1@linux...
>>>
>>> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>>> >You might try googling for jazz fake books.
>>>
>>> I actually have a copy of "The Real Book" already, which of course has
>>much
>>> of that. I guess over the years I've been a sight reading slacker. ;o)
> I
>>> mean it wouldn't take ttthhhhhaaaat much effort I guess to learn using
> a
>>> method like that, but I'm just not all that comfortable with it, given
> I'm
>>> not familiar with the style, and don't know the tunes. I have learned
>>quite
>>> a number of classical peices by sight reading, but at least I have
>>classical
>>> training.
>>>
>>> ...and it takes me much longer than learning off a recording. Though I
>>guess
>>> that's also because normally the peices I learn from recordings are very
>>> simple pop tunes.
>>>
>>> I can see I'm going to have to resort to The Real Book and other fake
>>books
>>> in the end anyhow. This is just my last cry out saying "Nooooo, I don't
>>want
>>> to have to put any effort in!!". ;o)
>>>
>>> ...but obviously if I want to move forward I'm going to have to get off
>>> my lazy butt and work on my chops. ;o)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kim.
>>
>>
>
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| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67157 is a reply to message #67156] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 22:24 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeh I'm thinking I might have to invest in a couple. And they come with books
too, so I can practise my chart reading at the same time.
I'm thinking I can kill two birds with one stone if I buy the 16 volume pack:
http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-stor e/scstore/p-HLJP16.html?L+scstore+nhmh0092ffea9cea+114566551 1
First, I'll have heaps of material to practise to, and second, I can sit
down and just press go, and read the charts as I play through disk 1, then
2, then 3... to 16. Then I can get some serious playing practise, and some
serious chart reading practise at the same time.
Hey, this is cool. I'm getting all excited. :o) Maybe I should buy just a
couple first to check it out though...
Cheers,
Kim.
"Mike Claytor" <claytor@psi.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>The play alongs are great for me (bassist.) I have the Giant Steps, Herbie
>Hancock, etc.
>
>You can just pan them to where you only hear the parts you need and play
>along (duh!) and it's a great way to learn, especially if you're an "ear"
>player.
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>There's some gold.
>>
>>The play alongs seem cheaper here though:
>>
>> http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-stor e/scstore/c-Hal_Leonard_Jazz_Play_Alongs.html?L+scstore+nhmh 0092ffea9cea+1145665376
>>
>>...which is where I was right before reading your post. But there's some
>>nice looking books on that link of yours also.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Kim.
>>
>>"Mike Claytor" <claytor@psi.utexas.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, I went to a jazz gig last night.
>>>
>>>Kim,
>>>
>>>Check out:
>>>
>>>http://www.aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc
>>>
>>>MC
>>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67161 is a reply to message #67140] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 03:16 |
Don Nafe
Messages: 1206
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Why don't you attend a few more "Jazz Nights", talk with a few players and
find a one who's willing to give you some lessons.
You could even swap recording time for them.
I have a good friend who did just that and his guitar playing has steadily
improved, in all genres
Don
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>
>
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
> I'd
> like to. ;o)
>
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
> persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
> good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
> tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
> play.
>
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
> starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
> copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
> particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
> different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
> learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> ...would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
> people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
> jazz.
>
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
> effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
|
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67162 is a reply to message #67161] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 04:38 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That's not a silly idea.
There's another jazz club a bit closer to home which I'm hoping will become
a bit of a local. The one I went to last night is in the city centre, which
is about 15 minutes drive, whereas this other one is in Fitzroy, which is
about 5 minutes drive, or an easy ten minute tram ride and short taxi home.
Hence I'm hoping, if it's any good, it can become my "jazz local". I haven't
been there yet, but I'm hoping to check it out some time next week if I get
the chance.
If I get comfy at this other club, the calibre of muso will likely be a little
lower, but they should be fairly approachable I imagine. Mind you even at
Bennett's Lane (last night) the players were just wandering through the audience,
and I could have easily spoken to them.
On the other hand, I spent a couple of hours reading jazz theory earlier
today, and, like last time I read jazz theory, I found that I actually am
already pretty comfortable with all the basic theory. What I need is to do
some more study on the actual great players, and specifics of their styles,
so that I know more about the finer details. 90% of the hard work of learning
modes and harmonisation is done. I'm starting to think that what I need at
this stage is more a history lesson.
I might spend tonight reading I think...
Of course a good teacher would be able to look at my playing style and go
"Ahh, what you need to know is THIS!". ;o)
I just haven't really had a music lesson since, well, since I was in High
School actually. I'm kinda used to working everything out myself. Mind you,
if I found the right person, probably 5 lessons in the right direction could
make some pretty big strides. The thing is I would need to find the right
teacher.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>Why don't you attend a few more "Jazz Nights", talk with a few players
and
>find a one who's willing to give you some lessons.
>
>You could even swap recording time for them.
>
>I have a good friend who did just that and his guitar playing has steadily
>improved, in all genres
>
>Don
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
>> I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
>> persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
>> good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
>> tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
>> play.
>>
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
>> starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
>> copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
>> particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
>> different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
>> learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>> ...would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
>> people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
>> jazz.
>>
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
>> effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67163 is a reply to message #67152] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 04:41 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks for that. Will have a look tonight. Soon as I finish reading this
other one I'm half way through.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Kevin Hennessey" <pianoman@ntplx.net> wrote:
>Check out this site under Jazz Theory.
>
>http://petethomas.co.uk/
>
>Kevin
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:44485195$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> Thanks for those book suggestions. I'll definately google them when I
get
>> a chance. I do need to polish up on some jazz theory. The extent of my
>> jazz
>> knowledge is basically a few tips from my High School music teacher back
>> in the late 80's, who did study jazz at University. I could certainly
use
>> some info on the finer points.
>>
>> Certainly, natively I learn by ear. I learned via the Japanese Suzuki
>> method.
>> So my first point of call will be to listen to the style at least that
I
>> want to play, which is also why i've so heavily relied on doing things
by
>> ear over time. I already put the call out for a good jazz theory book
last
>> christmas, and my brother bought me a book, which is probably a good
>> start,
>> called "What to listen for in jazz". Obviously he figures, since I'm such
>> a "by ear" muso, that that would be a good approach. It comes with a CD
>> full
>> of jazz classics, and takes you through some of the tricks they use, and
>> I had forgotten about that... it's on the bookshelf somewhere... I must
>> dig it out and have a listen.
>>
>> But I also need a good theory book. I searched the web, and there was
some
>> site called "learnjazzpiano.com" or something, which had some theory,
but
>> it really didn't cover anything of note that I didn't know.
>>
>> Half my problem is that I'm just lazy. ;o) If I bother to put some effort
>> in I'm sure I'll start to make ground fast.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>>
>> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>>>We used to use them for gigs when we didnt already have an arranagement
>> of a
>>>requested tune. So they came in handy for that. Jazz theory books would
>> be
>>>a help to you as well. I used to have John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation
>>>series (destroyed in a recent house flood) which was used in NTSU jazz
>>>classes (a big school for jazz in Denton, TX), and a book by Ed Haerle
>> (a
>>>teacher there) on jazz voicings that was very good, but that was some
time
>>>ago, may'be something better available now. And of course just listening
>> to
>>>the kind of jazz you want to get into along with theory will help you
to
>>>understand whats going on musically, which, IMHO, is more important than
>> the
>>>music reading.
>>>
>>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:444841f4$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> "Edna" <edna@texomaonline.com> wrote:
>>>> >You might try googling for jazz fake books.
>>>>
>>>> I actually have a copy of "The Real Book" already, which of course has
>>>much
>>>> of that. I guess over the years I've been a sight reading slacker. ;o)
>> I
>>>> mean it wouldn't take ttthhhhhaaaat much effort I guess to learn using
>> a
>>>> method like that, but I'm just not all that comfortable with it, given
>> I'm
>>>> not familiar with the style, and don't know the tunes. I have learned
>>>quite
>>>> a number of classical peices by sight reading, but at least I have
>>>classical
>>>> training.
>>>>
>>>> ...and it takes me much longer than learning off a recording. Though
I
>>>guess
>>>> that's also because normally the peices I learn from recordings are
very
>>>> simple pop tunes.
>>>>
>>>> I can see I'm going to have to resort to The Real Book and other fake
>>>books
>>>> in the end anyhow. This is just my last cry out saying "Nooooo, I don't
>>>want
>>>> to have to put any effort in!!". ;o)
>>>>
>>>> ...but obviously if I want to move forward I'm going to have to get
off
>>>> my lazy butt and work on my chops. ;o)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Kim.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67167 is a reply to message #67140] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 05:41 |
Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I know you are a guitarist. If you are interested in pursuing this on
guitar, this is the ticket:
www.optekmusic.com
Absolutely unbelievable learning tool.
Deej
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>
>
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
I'd
> like to. ;o)
>
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
play.
>
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
....would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
jazz.
>
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67170 is a reply to message #67140] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 10:05 |
Rich Lamanna
Messages: 316
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C6653B.EBF7CFC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. =
It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I =
play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of =
comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
like hell.
Cheers and good luck,
Rich
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:4448377b$1@linux...
>=20
>=20
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of =
other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz =
as I'd
> like to. ;o)
>=20
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>=20
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so =
good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten =
tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One =
is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder =
to play.
>=20
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts =
to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I =
copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that =
particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need =
to learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm =
hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings =
is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it =
seems.
>=20
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
standards=20
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody =
goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing... =
...would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>=20
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some =
people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in =
jazz.
>=20
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>=20
> Cheers,
> Kim.
------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C6653B.EBF7CFC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to =
the cats=20
that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
arpeggios=20
as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
every key=20
of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
triads,=20
sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're more =
complex=20
and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic Minor, =
Melodic=20
Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in the =
beginning, but=20
eventually you begin to find your own voice and things start to fall =
into place.=20
It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching =
and analyzing=20
other's solos. I play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made =
me more=20
aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo=20
simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
footing=20
already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
Peterson, Chick,=20
Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed like hell.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
<DIV>Rich</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote in =
message=20
</FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
Paul=20
Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
would know=20
if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
<BR>> So=20
this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
persuits<BR>>=20
to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a=20
sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but =
I've been=20
avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard =
work.<BR>>=20
<BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, =
are so=20
good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the =
average top=20
ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no=20
comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and =
more=20
clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last 20 years, =
when=20
I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a recorded =
performance of=20
the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> imitate what I hear, =
but=20
with jazz the expectation is different. For starters<BR>> most =
recorded=20
versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy<BR>> =
what I=20
hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that=20
particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be =
doing my=20
own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of =
doing=20
that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I have =
some=20
ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as I've =
found that=20
working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
effective for=20
pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody know =
of=20
somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
they're=20
written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
before=20
people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such =
thing... =20
....would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be=20
ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't actually know any real =
jazz musos.=20
I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd =
say=20
there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> I think I just need to bite =
the=20
bullet and start putting some serious effort<BR>> into improving my =
chart=20
reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> =
Kim.</FONT></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C6653B.EBF7CFC0--
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67179 is a reply to message #67170] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 14:34 |
steve the artguy
Messages: 308
Registered: June 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kim-
You've been given more material to go through than you likely can get through
in a lifetime, but go to it! Here are a few helpful hints...
If you're just comping behind a soloist, you can go a long long way by becoming
familiar with the thirds and sevenths of all the major and minor chords.
Also think of yourself as a horn section. Play as little as necessary to
get the harmonic structure across.
I assume you're familiar with the circle of fifths. It is the framework upon
which songs are constructed. Some classical players I've run into who didn't
have theory play for years and years without really grasping this.
There's a great trick (which works on guitar as well as keys) where, as you
go down the circle of fifths, the third and flatted seventh of a chord can
both go down a half step (or a fret) to become the flatted seventh and third
of the next chord.
If you're not already, become familiar with the I, IV, V, iv, etc. method
of chord representations. Transcribe progressions into this form, and then
you can easily move them to other keys.
Practicing ii V I progressions in all keys is good- even mandatory. Try all
manner of ii chords (minor, minor 6, minor 7) in all inversions and see if
you can find your way chromatically from each ii to the V chord. All kinds
of cool things to be discovered.
Keep us posted how you're coming. Some of us have been working on this for
decades...
I remember vividly watching a good player, late 70s, back when I had no clue.
(I was playing bass and reading off his chart.) As the band was playing,
he would scan the chart and just sit at the keyboard, waiting for the moment
when a chord was needed. Then, blam! It was like magic. He knew just what
to play and when.
-steve
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67180 is a reply to message #67179] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 15:04 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Or, simply ignore everything that's been posted in this thread,
grab a fretless bass, and wail away with complete disregard as
to whether you're playing a scalar note or not, and just maintain
that you perfer to "play on the outside".
:)
"steve the artguy" <artguy@longtimenosee.net> wrote:
>
>Kim-
>
>You've been given more material to go through than you likely can get through
>in a lifetime, but go to it! Here are a few helpful hints...
>
>If you're just comping behind a soloist, you can go a long long way by becoming
>familiar with the thirds and sevenths of all the major and minor chords.
>Also think of yourself as a horn section. Play as little as necessary to
>get the harmonic structure across.
>
>I assume you're familiar with the circle of fifths. It is the framework
upon
>which songs are constructed. Some classical players I've run into who didn't
>have theory play for years and years without really grasping this.
>
>There's a great trick (which works on guitar as well as keys) where, as
you
>go down the circle of fifths, the third and flatted seventh of a chord can
>both go down a half step (or a fret) to become the flatted seventh and third
>of the next chord.
>
>If you're not already, become familiar with the I, IV, V, iv, etc. method
>of chord representations. Transcribe progressions into this form, and then
>you can easily move them to other keys.
>
>Practicing ii V I progressions in all keys is good- even mandatory. Try
all
>manner of ii chords (minor, minor 6, minor 7) in all inversions and see
if
>you can find your way chromatically from each ii to the V chord. All kinds
>of cool things to be discovered.
>
>Keep us posted how you're coming. Some of us have been working on this for
>decades...
>
>I remember vividly watching a good player, late 70s, back when I had no
clue.
>(I was playing bass and reading off his chart.) As the band was playing,
>he would scan the chart and just sit at the keyboard, waiting for the moment
>when a chord was needed. Then, blam! It was like magic. He knew just what
>to play and when.
>
>-steve
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67181 is a reply to message #67165] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 15:54 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yeh, I have no doubt there's plenty I don't know, if I can find the right
teacher.
Cheers,
Kim.
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448c433$1@linux...
>
>> I just haven't really had a music lesson since, well, since I was in High
>> School actually. I'm kinda used to working everything out myself. Mind
>> you,
>> if I found the right person, probably 5 lessons in the right direction
>> could
>> make some pretty big strides. The thing is I would need to find the right
>> teacher.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
>enlightening....particularly voicing of chords, basic theory (which you
>have) and learning tricks for solos i.e. scales and relative positions etc.
>
>Have fun
>
>Don
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67182 is a reply to message #67179] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 16:01 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"steve the artguy" <artguy@longtimenosee.net> wrote:
Thanks for the tips. Familiar with most of this, though the trick dropping
the third/seventh to create the next third/seventh is clever, and something
I hadn't noticed. One for the library for sure.
I'm becoming increasingly aware that what I'm missing most here is the hard
work. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
>
>Kim-
>
>You've been given more material to go through than you likely can get through
>in a lifetime, but go to it! Here are a few helpful hints...
>
>If you're just comping behind a soloist, you can go a long long way by becoming
>familiar with the thirds and sevenths of all the major and minor chords.
>Also think of yourself as a horn section. Play as little as necessary to
>get the harmonic structure across.
>
>I assume you're familiar with the circle of fifths. It is the framework
upon
>which songs are constructed. Some classical players I've run into who didn't
>have theory play for years and years without really grasping this.
>
>There's a great trick (which works on guitar as well as keys) where, as
you
>go down the circle of fifths, the third and flatted seventh of a chord can
>both go down a half step (or a fret) to become the flatted seventh and third
>of the next chord.
>
>If you're not already, become familiar with the I, IV, V, iv, etc. method
>of chord representations. Transcribe progressions into this form, and then
>you can easily move them to other keys.
>
>Practicing ii V I progressions in all keys is good- even mandatory. Try
all
>manner of ii chords (minor, minor 6, minor 7) in all inversions and see
if
>you can find your way chromatically from each ii to the V chord. All kinds
>of cool things to be discovered.
>
>Keep us posted how you're coming. Some of us have been working on this for
>decades...
>
>I remember vividly watching a good player, late 70s, back when I had no
clue.
>(I was playing bass and reading off his chart.) As the band was playing,
>he would scan the chart and just sit at the keyboard, waiting for the moment
>when a chord was needed. Then, blam! It was like magic. He knew just what
>to play and when.
>
>-steve
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67183 is a reply to message #67180] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 16:02 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
LOL! Now that sounds much less like hard work! Sounds like my thing. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Neil" <OIUOIU@.com> wrote:
>
>Or, simply ignore everything that's been posted in this thread,
>grab a fretless bass, and wail away with complete disregard as
>to whether you're playing a scalar note or not, and just maintain
>that you perfer to "play on the outside".
>
>:)
>
>
>"steve the artguy" <artguy@longtimenosee.net> wrote:
>>
>>Kim-
>>
>>You've been given more material to go through than you likely can get through
>>in a lifetime, but go to it! Here are a few helpful hints...
>>
>>If you're just comping behind a soloist, you can go a long long way by
becoming
>>familiar with the thirds and sevenths of all the major and minor chords.
>>Also think of yourself as a horn section. Play as little as necessary to
>>get the harmonic structure across.
>>
>>I assume you're familiar with the circle of fifths. It is the framework
>upon
>>which songs are constructed. Some classical players I've run into who didn't
>>have theory play for years and years without really grasping this.
>>
>>There's a great trick (which works on guitar as well as keys) where, as
>you
>>go down the circle of fifths, the third and flatted seventh of a chord
can
>>both go down a half step (or a fret) to become the flatted seventh and
third
>>of the next chord.
>>
>>If you're not already, become familiar with the I, IV, V, iv, etc. method
>>of chord representations. Transcribe progressions into this form, and then
>>you can easily move them to other keys.
>>
>>Practicing ii V I progressions in all keys is good- even mandatory. Try
>all
>>manner of ii chords (minor, minor 6, minor 7) in all inversions and see
>if
>>you can find your way chromatically from each ii to the V chord. All kinds
>>of cool things to be discovered.
>>
>>Keep us posted how you're coming. Some of us have been working on this
for
>>decades...
>>
>>I remember vividly watching a good player, late 70s, back when I had no
>clue.
>>(I was playing bass and reading off his chart.) As the band was playing,
>>he would scan the chart and just sit at the keyboard, waiting for the moment
>>when a chord was needed. Then, blam! It was like magic. He knew just what
>>to play and when.
>>
>>-steve
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67184 is a reply to message #67167] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 16:14 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I do play guitar, though I'm more comfortable on keys, and would be approaching
jazz from the keyboard end, at least as a first port of call.
That said, it's an interesting concept I see at the site. I have a guitarist
mate who's also on a jazz kick so I'll certainly forward this to him.
However, one of the issues I have on guitar, being less familiar with guitar
than keyboard, and partly just due to the nature of the format, is not just
that I don't know where the notes are, but that, on keys, I can easily see
the current chord, and how that fits in to the current key, the previous
chord, etc. I can see it all because Ab looks the same everywhere. I know,
for example, if the note I'm playing currently in my solo is the 5th of the
current chord, for example, or whatever. On guitar, knowing the scale is
one issue, but to be really good you have to also know how those notes fit
in to the current chord, the last chord, the key the tune is based around,
etc. This is a part where it seems easy to me on keys, but on guitar I get
lost, and while these lights will help with which actual notes are in the
scale, I can't see that they will tell me which note fits where in the present
scheme of things, relative to the current chord and key, etc, if that makes
sense. That's still going to require that I know all the inversions of every
chord all up and down the neck. I don't see a way around that.
Good idea though. Very good idea, and a lot could be learned from it.
Cheers,
Kim.
"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>I know you are a guitarist. If you are interested in pursuing this on
>guitar, this is the ticket:
>
>www.optekmusic.com
>
>Absolutely unbelievable learning tool.
>
>Deej
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>
>>
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
>I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
>persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
>good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
>tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
>play.
>>
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
>starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
>copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
>particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
>different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
>learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>...would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
>people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
>jazz.
>>
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
>effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67185 is a reply to message #67170] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 16:15 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm definately getting the idea that some hard work is going to be required
here. ;o)
DOH!
Cheers,
Kim.
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
>cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
>every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
=
>It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
>your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I
=
>play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of
=
>comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>like hell.
>
>Cheers and good luck,
>Rich
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>=20
>>=20
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of =
>other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz =
>as I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>=20
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
>sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
>avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>=20
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
=
>good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
=
>tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
=
>is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder =
>to play.
>>=20
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
>listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
=
>to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
=
>copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
=
>particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
>different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need =
>to learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm =
>hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
=
>is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it =
>seems.
>>=20
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>standards=20
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
=
>goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
=
> ...would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>=20
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some =
>people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
=
>jazz.
>>=20
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
=
>effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
><DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to =
>the cats=20
>that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
>arpeggios=20
>as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>every key=20
>of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads,=20
>sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're more
=
>complex=20
>and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic Minor, =
>Melodic=20
>Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in the =
>beginning, but=20
>eventually you begin to find your own voice and things start to fall =
>into place.=20
>It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching =
>and analyzing=20
>other's solos. I play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made
=
>me more=20
>aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo=20
>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>footing=20
>already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>Peterson, Chick,=20
>Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed like hell.</DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
><DIV>Rich</DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
>href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
>size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote in =
>message=20
></FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
>size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>Paul=20
>Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>would know=20
>if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
><BR>> So=20
>this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>persuits<BR>>=20
>to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a=20
>sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but =
>I've been=20
>avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard =
>work.<BR>>=20
><BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, =
>are so=20
>good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the =
>average top=20
>ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no=20
>comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and =
>more=20
>clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last 20 years, =
>when=20
>I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a recorded =
>performance of=20
>the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> imitate what I hear, =
>but=20
>with jazz the expectation is different. For starters<BR>> most =
>recorded=20
>versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy<BR>> =
>what I=20
>hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that=20
>particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be =
>doing my=20
>own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of =
>doing=20
>that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I have =
>some=20
>ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as I've =
>found that=20
>working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>effective for=20
>pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody know =
>of=20
>somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>they're=20
>written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
>before=20
>people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such =
>thing... =20
>...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be=20
>ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't actually know any real =
>jazz musos.=20
>I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd =
>say=20
>there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> I think I just need to bite =
>the=20
>bullet and start putting some serious effort<BR>> into improving my =
>chart=20
>reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> =
>Kim.</FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67188 is a reply to message #67185] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 17:14 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If you want about a years worth of inspiration get this:
http://tinyurl.com/e9qju
Kim wrote:
> I'm definately getting the idea that some hard work is going to be required
> here. ;o)
>
> DOH!
>
> Cheers,
> Kim.
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
>> cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>> many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
>> every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
>> triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>> (they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>> Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
> =
>> It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
>> your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>> about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I
> =
>> play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of
> =
>> comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>> simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>> footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>> Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>> like hell.
>>
>> Cheers and good luck,
>> Rich
>>
>>
>> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>> news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of =
>> other
>>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz =
>> as I'd
>>> like to. ;o)
>>> =20
>>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>> persuits
>>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
>> sudden
>>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
>> avoiding
>>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>> =20
>>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
> =
>> good.
>>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
> =
>> tune,
>>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
> =
>> is
>>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder =
>> to play.
>>> =20
>>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
>> listened
>>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
> =
>> to
>>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>> starters
>>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
> =
>> copy
>>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
> =
>> particular
>>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
>> different,
>>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need =
>> to learn
>>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm =
>> hardly
>>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
> =
>> is
>>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it =
>> seems.
>>> =20
>>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>> standards=20
>>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
> =
>> goes
>>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> =
>> ...would
>>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>> =20
>>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some =
>> people
>>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
> =
>> jazz.
>>> =20
>>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
> =
>> effort
>>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>> =20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kim.
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>> <HTML><HEAD>
>> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
>> <STYLE></STYLE>
>> </HEAD>
>> <BODY>
>> <DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to =
>> the cats=20
>> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
>> arpeggios=20
>> as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>> every key=20
>> of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
>> triads,=20
>> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're more
> =
>> complex=20
>> and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic Minor, =
>> Melodic=20
>> Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in the =
>> beginning, but=20
>> eventually you begin to find your own voice and things start to fall =
>> into place.=20
>> It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching =
>> and analyzing=20
>> other's solos. I play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made
> =
>> me more=20
>> aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo=20
>> simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>> footing=20
>> already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>> Peterson, Chick,=20
>> Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed like hell.</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
>> <DIV>Rich</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
>> href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote in =
>> message=20
>> </FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>> size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>> size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>> Paul=20
>> Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>> would know=20
>> if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
>> <BR>> So=20
>> this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>> persuits<BR>>=20
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a=20
>> sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but =
>> I've been=20
>> avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard =
>> work.<BR>>=20
>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, =
>> are so=20
>> good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the =
>> average top=20
>> ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no=20
>> comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and =
>> more=20
>> clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last 20 years, =
>> when=20
>> I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a recorded =
>> performance of=20
>> the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> imitate what I hear, =
>> but=20
>> with jazz the expectation is different. For starters<BR>> most =
>> recorded=20
>> versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy<BR>> =
>> what I=20
>> hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that=20
>> particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be =
>> doing my=20
>> own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of =
>> doing=20
>> that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I have =
>> some=20
>> ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as I've =
>> found that=20
>> working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>> effective for=20
>> pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody know =
>> of=20
>> somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>> they're=20
>> written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
>> before=20
>> people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such =
>> thing... =20
>> ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be=20
>> ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't actually know any real =
>> jazz musos.=20
>> I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd =
>> say=20
>> there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> I think I just need to bite =
>> the=20
>> bullet and start putting some serious effort<BR>> into improving my =
>> chart=20
>> reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> Cheers,<BR>> =
>> Kim.</FONT></BODY></HTML>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67192 is a reply to message #67170] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 19:23 |
Rich Lamanna
Messages: 316
Registered: February 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C66589.C78A6AA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and =
starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so =
much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more =
than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap =
about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or =
play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after =
about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before =
you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
after.
Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. =
Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to =
learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue =
my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for =
my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it =
really means something to you. There's really something special about =
jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in =
the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read =
"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm =
beginning to sympathize with him."
Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
Start with 2 million.
Rich
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
news:444901e4@linux...
Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. =
It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I =
play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of =
comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
like hell.
Cheers and good luck,
Rich
=20
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
news:4448377b$1@linux...
>=20
>=20
> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of =
other
> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz =
as I'd
> like to. ;o)
>=20
> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
persuits
> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
sudden
> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
avoiding
> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>=20
> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are =
so good.
> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top =
ten tune,
> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. =
One is
> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder =
to play.
>=20
> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
listened
> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
parts to
> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
starters
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If =
I copy
> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
that particular
> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
different,
> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need =
to learn
> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm =
hardly
> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
recordings is
> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it =
seems.
>=20
> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
standards=20
> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
melody goes
> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing... =
...would
> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>=20
> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some =
people
> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is =
in jazz.
>=20
> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
serious effort
> into improving my chart reading skills...
>=20
> Cheers,
> Kim.
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C66589.C78A6AA0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
practicing,=20
perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're =
practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig =
that pays=20
more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
usual=20
loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about =
all the=20
hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more=20
traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
forget that=20
you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since =
you've=20
become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of =
constant 6-8=20
hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz musician, =
you can=20
expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too =
far from=20
the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my =
youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
engrossed in and=20
devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I =
still=20
pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can =
pay for=20
my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it =
really=20
means something to you. There's really something special about jazz for =
me.=20
Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, or=20
appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
size=3D2>"One of my=20
long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on =
his=20
tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as =
I=20
naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
..com/hal_galper.htm</A>
<SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
jazz?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
<DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to =
the cats=20
that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
arpeggios=20
as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
every key=20
of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
triads,=20
sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're =
more=20
complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic =
Minor,=20
Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in =
the=20
beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things =
start to=20
fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still =
searching=20
and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the =
steel drum=20
which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in =
that you=20
comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're =
on the=20
right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill =
Evans, Oscar=20
Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
like=20
hell.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
<DIV>Rich</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote =
in message=20
</FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
Paul=20
Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
would know=20
if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
<BR>> So=20
this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical=20
persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
Actually, it's=20
not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some =
time,but=20
I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much =
hard=20
work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good =
ones at=20
least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard =
parts in=20
the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz =
tune,=20
there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more =
advanced,=20
and more clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last =
20=20
years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a =
recorded=20
performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> =
imitate=20
what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
starters<BR>>=20
most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I =
copy<BR>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody =
emulating=20
that particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I =
should be=20
doing my own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite =
capable of=20
doing that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I =
have=20
some ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as =
I've found=20
that working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
effective=20
for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody =
know of=20
somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
they're=20
written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
before=20
people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such=20
thing... ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. =
MIDI=20
files even might be ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't =
actually=20
know any real jazz musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of =
jazz,=20
but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> =
I think=20
I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
effort<BR>>=20
into improving my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> =
Cheers,<BR>>=20
Kim.</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C66589.C78A6AA0--
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|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67193 is a reply to message #67140] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 18:26 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey Kim,
Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
-What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
-Be Bop (50, 60s)
-swing (30's 40's)
-Big Band(40, 50s)
-Smooth Jazz :)
-Jazz Fusion.?
This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to speak.
2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself in
intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style, and
listen listen, listen.
3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play. Go
see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery. The
more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
Then, play that line on your instrument..
6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
I'd
>like to. ;o)
>
>So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>
>Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so good.
>;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,
>to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
>decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
play.
>
>And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
>imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
>most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy
>what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that particular
>recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
learn
>the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
>generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>
>Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>"as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
>before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
...would
>be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>
>And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
>who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.
>
>I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort
>into improving my chart reading skills...
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67194 is a reply to message #67193] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 18:49 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jazz Fusion for sure and Be Bop when I'm too old to play Jazz Fusion !
I'm gonna join Spyro Gyra, they just don't know it yet. :-)
LaMont wrote:
> Hey Kim,
> Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
>
> -What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
> -Be Bop (50, 60s)
> -swing (30's 40's)
> -Big Band(40, 50s)
> -Smooth Jazz :)
> -Jazz Fusion.?
> This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to speak.
>
> 2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself in
> intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
> you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style, and
> listen listen, listen.
>
> 3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play. Go
> see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
> Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
>
> 4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery. The
> more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
>
> 5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
> Then, play that line on your instrument..
>
> 6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
> you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
>
> 7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
> all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
>
>
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
> I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
> play.
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
> learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> ..would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.
>>
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67195 is a reply to message #67193] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 18:50 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Seriously, forget the books, get a dvd of your fav jazz band playing
live, then try to play the instrument part they are playing and jam
along. That's the next best thing to being in the band, except having
your own band! Go get em!
LaMont wrote:
> Hey Kim,
> Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
>
> -What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
> -Be Bop (50, 60s)
> -swing (30's 40's)
> -Big Band(40, 50s)
> -Smooth Jazz :)
> -Jazz Fusion.?
> This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to speak.
>
> 2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself in
> intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
> you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style, and
> listen listen, listen.
>
> 3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play. Go
> see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
> Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
>
> 4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery. The
> more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
>
> 5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
> Then, play that line on your instrument..
>
> 6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
> you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
>
> 7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
> all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
>
>
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
> I'd
>> like to. ;o)
>>
>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so good.
>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,
>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
> play.
>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I copy
>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that particular
>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
> learn
>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>
>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
> ..would
>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.
>>
>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort
>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kim.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67196 is a reply to message #67192] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 18:51 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Do it for the chicks !
Rich Lamanna wrote:
> Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
> starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so
> much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more
> than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the
> usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap
> about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or
> play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't
> forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol
> addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after
> about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before
> you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one after.
>
> Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the
> truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and
> young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted
> to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still
> pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can
> pay for my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and
> because it really means something to you. There's really something
> special about jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little
> or no understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
>
> Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in
> the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read
> "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm
> beginning to sympathize with him."
>
> Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>
> You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
> Start with 2 million.
>
> Rich
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net
> <mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net>> wrote in message
> news:444901e4@linux...
> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the
> cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as
> many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical
> sense, *in every key of course, this is a must*, learned all the
> chord scales, in triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the
> dominant ones, (they're more complex and were harder to hear for
> me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's
> endless my friend. It's all repetition in the beginning, but
> eventually you begin to find your own voice and things start to fall
> into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still
> searching and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently
> the steel drum which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is
> challenging in that you comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to
> do this on piano, you're on the right footing already if you're
> listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Chick, Herbie,
> George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed like hell.
>
> Cheers and good luck,
> Rich
>
>
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com <mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com>>
> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
> >
> >
> > Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch
> of other
> > dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about
> jazz as I'd
> > like to. ;o)
> >
> > So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my
> musical persuits
> > to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not
> a sudden
> > whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been
> avoiding
> > ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
> >
> > Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least,
> are so good.
> > ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top
> ten tune,
> > to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison.
> One is
> > decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And
> harder to play.
> >
> > And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've
> listened
> > to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some
> parts to
> > imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different.
> For starters
> > most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player.
> If I copy
> > what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating
> that particular
> > recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my
> own, different,
> > original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I
> need to learn
> > the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts,
> I'm hardly
> > an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual
> recordings is
> > generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz
> it seems.
> >
> > Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz
> standards
> > "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original
> melody goes
> > before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such
> thing... ...would
> > be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
> >
> > And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know
> some people
> > who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise
> is in jazz.
> >
> > I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some
> serious effort
> > into improving my chart reading skills...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67200 is a reply to message #67193] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 20:06 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Or: 7) Just get a fretless bass, ignore if you're playing
anything scalar or not, and insist that you're still
just "hanging on the outside".
:)
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Hey Kim,
>Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
>
>-What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
> -Be Bop (50, 60s)
> -swing (30's 40's)
> -Big Band(40, 50s)
>-Smooth Jazz :)
>-Jazz Fusion.?
>This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to speak.
>
>2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself in
>intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
>you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style,
and
>listen listen, listen.
>
>3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play. Go
>see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
>Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
>
>4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery.
The
>more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
>
>5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
>Then, play that line on your instrument..
>
>6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
>you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
>
>7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
>all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
>
>
>
>
>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>>dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
>I'd
>>like to. ;o)
>>
>>So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>>to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>>whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>>ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>
>>Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so good.
>>;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten tune,
>>to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One is
>>decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
>play.
>>
>>And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>>to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to
>>imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
>>most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
copy
>>what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that particular
>>recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>>original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
>learn
>>the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>>an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings is
>>generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>
>>Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>
>>"as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes
>>before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>..would
>>be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>
>>And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
>>who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
jazz.
>>
>>I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious effort
>>into improving my chart reading skills...
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Kim.
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67201 is a reply to message #67184] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 20:07 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You mean you don'nt know al your chord inversions?
That's standard requirement for R & B. You'd be hard presses to play some
Earth Wind & Fire not knowing 90 percent of your chordal inversions :)
Now that we're on the subject, to play Jazz, one should have a foundation
as to where that style is derived from.
Today, I would say that having a firm understanding of the Blues is paramount!!
Simply put, you can play all the notes in the world, but, if it does not
have meaning orif it does not swing, then it's just al ot of notes..
From the Blues, then Jazz or even Gospel. The Gospel music form is a very
interesting form. It's comprised of: The Blues, clasical, Jazz, R &B, Rock
& Roll.. Yep, you get it all in on art for called Gospel music. Being from
Detroit, which is Gospel music's mecca, I can tell you that there some Local
Jazz great talents (James Carter-Sax) and others. These guys can be-bop you
all night long, but all are lost in a Gospel situation..
expecialy the Jazz keyboard guys. Lost in space when it come to playing Gospel.:)
But, You take a un-learned,can't read Gospel Kid who plays at a Store-front
church, to the local jazz spot, and he or she can flow..
So,what am I saying.. ??Having a good foundation on the origins of Jazz and
it's off-springs can shed a lot of light into the world of Jazz..
"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>I do play guitar, though I'm more comfortable on keys, and would be approaching
>jazz from the keyboard end, at least as a first port of call.
>
>That said, it's an interesting concept I see at the site. I have a guitarist
>mate who's also on a jazz kick so I'll certainly forward this to him.
>
>However, one of the issues I have on guitar, being less familiar with guitar
>than keyboard, and partly just due to the nature of the format, is not just
>that I don't know where the notes are, but that, on keys, I can easily see
>the current chord, and how that fits in to the current key, the previous
>chord, etc. I can see it all because Ab looks the same everywhere. I know,
>for example, if the note I'm playing currently in my solo is the 5th of
the
>current chord, for example, or whatever. On guitar, knowing the scale is
>one issue, but to be really good you have to also know how those notes fit
>in to the current chord, the last chord, the key the tune is based around,
>etc. This is a part where it seems easy to me on keys, but on guitar I get
>lost, and while these lights will help with which actual notes are in the
>scale, I can't see that they will tell me which note fits where in the present
>scheme of things, relative to the current chord and key, etc, if that makes
>sense. That's still going to require that I know all the inversions of every
>chord all up and down the neck. I don't see a way around that.
>
>Good idea though. Very good idea, and a lot could be learned from it.
>
>Cheers,
>Kim.
>
>"DJ" <animix_spam-this-ahole_@animas.net> wrote:
>>I know you are a guitarist. If you are interested in pursuing this on
>>guitar, this is the ticket:
>>
>>www.optekmusic.com
>>
>>Absolutely unbelievable learning tool.
>>
>>Deej
>>
>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4448377b$1@linux...
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
other
>>> dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
as
>>I'd
>>> like to. ;o)
>>>
>>> So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical
>>persuits
>>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>>> ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>>
>>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
>>good.
>>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
>>tune,
>>> to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
>is
>>> decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
to
>>play.
>>>
>>> And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>>> to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
>to
>>> imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
>>starters
>>> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
I
>>copy
>>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
>>particular
>>> recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own,
>>different,
>>> original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
to
>>learn
>>> the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>>> an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
>is
>>> generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>>
>>> Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>>> "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
>goes
>>> before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>>...would
>>> be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>>
>>> And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
>>people
>>> who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
>>jazz.
>>>
>>> I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
>>effort
>>> into improving my chart reading skills...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kim.
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67202 is a reply to message #67200] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 20:10 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Lol!!
That'll work until the bandleader calls out "So What" by Miles Davis..Then
what will do..He has the "Signature" lead-Bass line :)
"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>Or: 7) Just get a fretless bass, ignore if you're playing
>anything scalar or not, and insist that you're still
>just "hanging on the outside".
>
>:)
>
>
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>Hey Kim,
>>Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
>>
>>-What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
>> -Be Bop (50, 60s)
>> -swing (30's 40's)
>> -Big Band(40, 50s)
>>-Smooth Jazz :)
>>-Jazz Fusion.?
>>This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to
speak.
>>
>>2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself
in
>>intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
>>you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style,
>and
>>listen listen, listen.
>>
>>3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play. Go
>>see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
>>Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
>>
>>4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery.
>The
>>more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
>>
>>5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
>>Then, play that line on your instrument..
>>
>>6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
>>you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
>>
>>7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
>>all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of other
>>>dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz as
>>I'd
>>>like to. ;o)
>>>
>>>So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>>>to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>>>whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>>>ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>>
>>>Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
good.
>>>;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
tune,
>>>to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
is
>>>decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder to
>>play.
>>>
>>>And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>>>to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
to
>>>imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For starters
>>>most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
>copy
>>>what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
particular
>>>recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>>>original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need to
>>learn
>>>the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>>>an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
is
>>>generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>>
>>>Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>>
>>>"as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
goes
>>>before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>
>>..would
>>>be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>>
>>>And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some people
>>>who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
>jazz.
>>>
>>>I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
effort
>>>into improving my chart reading skills...
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Kim.
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67203 is a reply to message #67192] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 20:12 |
LaMont
Messages: 828
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Amen
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
=
>starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so =
>much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more
=
>than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
>usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap =
>about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or
=
>play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't
=
>forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
>addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after
=
>about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before
=
>you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
>after.
>
>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. =
>Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
>adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to =
>learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue =
>my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for
=
>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
=
>really means something to you. There's really something special about =
>jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
>understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
>
>Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in =
>the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read
=
>"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm =
>beginning to sympathize with him."
>
>Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>
>You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
>Start with 2 million.
>
>Rich
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
>news:444901e4@linux...
> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
>cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
>every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
=
>It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
>your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I
=
>play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of
=
>comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>like hell.
>
> Cheers and good luck,
> Rich
>
> =20
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>news:4448377b$1@linux...
> >=20
> >=20
> > Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
=
>other
> > dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
=
>as I'd
> > like to. ;o)
> >=20
> > So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>persuits
> > to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
>sudden
> > whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
>avoiding
> > ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
> >=20
> > Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are =
>so good.
> > ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top =
>ten tune,
> > to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. =
>One is
> > decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
=
>to play.
> >=20
> > And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
>listened
> > to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
>parts to
> > imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
=
>starters
> > most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
=
>I copy
> > what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
>that particular
> > recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
>different,
> > original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
=
>to learn
> > the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm
=
>hardly
> > an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
>recordings is
> > generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it
=
>seems.
> >=20
> > Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>standards=20
> > "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
>melody goes
> > before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
=
> ...would
> > be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
> >=20
> > And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
=
>people
> > who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is
=
>in jazz.
> >=20
> > I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
>serious effort
> > into improving my chart reading skills...
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Kim.
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
>practicing,=20
>perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're
=
>
>practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig =
>that pays=20
>more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the
=
>usual=20
>loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about =
>all the=20
>hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more=20
>traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
>forget that=20
>you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
=
>you've=20
>become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of =
>constant 6-8=20
>hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz musician, =
>you can=20
>expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too =
>far from=20
>the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my =
>
>youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
>engrossed in and=20
>devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I =
>still=20
>pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can
=
>pay for=20
>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
=
>really=20
>means something to you. There's really something special about jazz for
=
>me.=20
>Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, or=20
>appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
>size=3D2>"One of my=20
>long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on =
>his=20
>tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as
=
>I=20
>naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
>href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
>.com/hal_galper.htm</A>
><SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
>jazz?</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
>A>>=20
> wrote in message <A=20
>href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
> <DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to
=
>the cats=20
> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
>arpeggios=20
> as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>every key=20
> of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads,=20
> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're =
>more=20
> complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
=
>Minor,=20
> Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in =
>the=20
> beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
=
>start to=20
> fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still =
>searching=20
> and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the =
>steel drum=20
> which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in =
>that you=20
> comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're
=
>on the=20
> right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill =
>Evans, Oscar=20
> Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>like=20
> hell.</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
> <DIV>Rich</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
> href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
> size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote =
>in message=20
> </FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
> size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
> size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>Paul=20
> Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>would know=20
> if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
><BR>> So=20
> this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical=20
> persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
>Actually, it's=20
> not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some =
>time,but=20
> I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much =
>hard=20
> work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good =
>ones at=20
> least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard =
>parts in=20
> the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz =
>tune,=20
> there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more =
>advanced,=20
> and more clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last =
>20=20
> years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a =
>recorded=20
> performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> =
>imitate=20
> what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>starters<BR>>=20
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
=
>
> copy<BR>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody =
>emulating=20
> that particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I =
>should be=20
> doing my own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite =
>capable of=20
> doing that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I =
>have=20
> some ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as =
>I've found=20
> that working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>effective=20
> for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody =
>know of=20
> somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>they're=20
> written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
>before=20
> people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such=20
> thing... ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. =
>MIDI=20
> files even might be ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't =
>actually=20
> know any real jazz musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of =
>jazz,=20
> but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> =
>I think=20
> I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
>effort<BR>>=20
> into improving my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> =
>Cheers,<BR>>=20
> Kim.</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67205 is a reply to message #67192] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 20:59 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks for that Rich. I'll check out your link too, when I get through some
of these others.
At this gig the other night, one of the guys said on mic "Our CD's are available
at the bar. If some of you guys bought a CD that would really help us hit
the jazz top ten, which would I think require about 20 sales..." ;o)
I'm aware that jazz isn't going to make me rich and famous. Even in cases
where people are famous, they're still not rich. The truth is though that
me and popular music seem to be going our seperate ways. There is little
in new music that interests me, and little motivation for me to persue it,
and I really don't feel very driven to play stuff that I think is crud, just
because that's what the punters want.
I'd much prefer that I get enjoyment out of it myself, know my craft, and
have a small but knowledgeable audience that appreciates and understands
what I'm doing, which is where jazz will likely take me. We do have a few
jazz clubs around Melbourne, so if I can work towards gigs in such places
it will hopefully mean that at least most of the audience will be appreciative,
even if they don't really understand it.
I've got some work to do before I get there though. Although it's probably
true that my "fudged" jazz I do at the moment is probably fairly adequate
for the average unknowledgeable audience. There's part of me that can't stand
the thought though that there's one guy sitting at a table somewhere in the
room thinking "This guy really doesn't know jazz"... ...which is I guess
what drives the jazz muso. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
"Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this practicing, perspiration and
=
>starvation since you won't be able to work since you're practicing so =
>much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig that pays more
=
>than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the =
>usual loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap =
>about all the hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or
=
>play more traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't
=
>forget that you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol =
>addictions, since you've become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after
=
>about 10 years of constant 6-8 hr/day shedding. If you had a life before
=
>you became a jazz musician, you can expect that you won't have one =
>after.
>
>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too far from the truth. =
>Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my youth and young =
>adulthood perfecting my craft, completely engrossed in and devoted to =
>learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I still pursue =
>my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can pay for
=
>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
=
>really means something to you. There's really something special about =
>jazz for me. Unfortunately the listening public has little or no =
>understanding, or appreciation of the music form.
>
>Hal Galper says it better than me: "One of my long-time associates in =
>the business once said that the inscription on his tombstone would read
=
>"It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as I naturally am, I'm =
>beginning to sympathize with him."
>
>Read the whole thing here: http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm
>
>You know how to make a million dollars playing jazz?
>Start with 2 million.
>
>Rich
>
> "Rich Lamanna" <richard.lamanna@verizon.net> wrote in message =
>news:444901e4@linux...
> Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to the =
>cats that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as =
>many arpeggios as I could find or create with my own musical sense, in =
>every key of course, this is a must, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads, sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, =
>(they're more complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, =
>Diminished, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend.
=
>It's all repetition in the beginning, but eventually you begin to find =
>your own voice and things start to fall into place. It only took me =
>about 25 years :0 and I'm still searching and analyzing other's solos. I
=
>play the sax and recently the steel drum which has made me more aware of
=
>comping. Keyboard is challenging in that you comp and solo =
>simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're on the right =
>footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill Evans, Oscar =
>Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>like hell.
>
> Cheers and good luck,
> Rich
>
> =20
> "Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote in message =
>news:4448377b$1@linux...
> >=20
> >=20
> > Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
=
>other
> > dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
=
>as I'd
> > like to. ;o)
> >=20
> > So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical =
>persuits
> > to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a =
>sudden
> > whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been =
>avoiding
> > ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
> >=20
> > Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are =
>so good.
> > ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top =
>ten tune,
> > to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. =
>One is
> > decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
=
>to play.
> >=20
> > And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've =
>listened
> > to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some =
>parts to
> > imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
=
>starters
> > most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
=
>I copy
> > what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating =
>that particular
> > recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, =
>different,
> > original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
=
>to learn
> > the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm
=
>hardly
> > an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual =
>recordings is
> > generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it
=
>seems.
> >=20
> > Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz =
>standards=20
> > "as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original =
>melody goes
> > before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
=
> ...would
> > be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
> >=20
> > And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
=
>people
> > who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is
=
>in jazz.
> >=20
> > I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some =
>serious effort
> > into improving my chart reading skills...
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Kim.
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1543" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh, I forgot to tell you. After all of this =
>practicing,=20
>perspiration and starvation since you won't be able to work since you're
=
>
>practicing so much; once you learn how to play jazz, try finding a gig =
>that pays=20
>more than $50.00, all 2 of them a month. While you're playing expect the
=
>usual=20
>loudmouthed moron, yelling over your solo, who could give a crap about =
>all the=20
>hip shit you're playing. Then be prepared to turn down or play more=20
>traditional, if you're playing too loud or too hip. And don't =
>forget that=20
>you'll need a day gig to pay for your coke and alcohol addictions, since
=
>you've=20
>become so neurotic, myopic and reclusive after about 10 years of =
>constant 6-8=20
>hr/day shedding. If you had a life before you became a jazz musician, =
>you can=20
>expect that you won't have one after.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kim, I'm really being facetious but this isn't too =
>far from=20
>the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz. I spent most of my =
>
>youth and young adulthood perfecting my craft, completely =
>engrossed in and=20
>devoted to learning how to improvise, solo over changes and write. I =
>still=20
>pursue my 1st love, jazz, with a passion, but I have a day gig so I can
=
>pay for=20
>my musical habit. If you do it, do it for the love of it and because it
=
>really=20
>means something to you. There's really something special about jazz for
=
>me.=20
>Unfortunately the listening public has little or no understanding, or=20
>appreciation of the music form.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hal Galper says it better than me: <FONT =
>size=3D2>"One of my=20
>long-time associates in the business once said that the inscription on =
>his=20
>tombstone would read "It wasn't worth it." As positive a kind of guy as
=
>I=20
>naturally am, I'm beginning to sympathize with him."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Read the whole thing here: <A=20
>href=3D"http://www.richlamanna.com/hal_galper.htm">http://www.richlamanna=
>.com/hal_galper.htm</A>
><SCRIPT language=3Djavascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>You know how to make a million dollars playing=20
>jazz?</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Start with 2 million.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich</FONT><BR></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"Rich Lamanna" <<A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:richard.lamanna@verizon.net">richard.lamanna@verizon.net</=
>A>>=20
> wrote in message <A=20
>href=3D"news:444901e4@linux">news:444901e4@linux</A>...</DIV>
> <DIV>Kim, the only way I learned how to play jazz was by listening to
=
>the cats=20
> that I really dug and transcribed tons of solos. I practiced as many =
>arpeggios=20
> as I could find or create with my own musical sense, <STRONG>in =
>every key=20
> of course, this is a must</STRONG>, learned all the chord scales, in =
>triads,=20
> sevenths, and 4th patterns, especially the dominant ones, (they're =
>more=20
> complex and were harder to hear for me), Altered, Diminished, Harmonic
=
>Minor,=20
> Melodic Minor, etc., it's endless my friend. It's all repetition in =
>the=20
> beginning, but eventually you begin to find your own voice and things
=
>start to=20
> fall into place. It only took me about 25 years :0 and I'm still =
>searching=20
> and analyzing other's solos. I play the sax and recently the =
>steel drum=20
> which has made me more aware of comping. Keyboard is challenging in =
>that you=20
> comp and solo simultaneously. If you want to do this on piano, you're
=
>on the=20
> right footing already if you're listening to cats like Bill =
>Evans, Oscar=20
> Peterson, Chick, Herbie, George Shearing, etc... Transcribe and shed =
>like=20
> hell.</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Cheers and good luck,</DIV>
> <DIV>Rich</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Kim" <</FONT><A=20
> href=3D"mailto:hiddensounds@hotmail.com"><FONT=20
> size=3D2>hiddensounds@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>> wrote =
>in message=20
> </FONT><A href=3D"news:4448377b$1@linux"><FONT=20
> size=3D2>news:4448377b$1@linux</FONT></A><FONT =
>size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
> size=3D2>> <BR>> <BR>> Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. =
>Paul=20
> Grabowsky and a bunch of other<BR>> dudes who's names I probably =
>would know=20
> if I knew as much about jazz as I'd<BR>> like to. ;o)<BR>> =
><BR>> So=20
> this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical=20
> persuits<BR>> to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) =
>Actually, it's=20
> not a sudden<BR>> whim for this week. It's been brewing for some =
>time,but=20
> I've been avoiding<BR>> ths switch because it sounds like too much =
>hard=20
> work.<BR>> <BR>> Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good =
>ones at=20
> least, are so good.<BR>> ;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard =
>parts in=20
> the average top ten tune,<BR>> to the piano part in an average jazz =
>tune,=20
> there's no comparison. One is<BR>> decidedly more difficult, more =
>advanced,=20
> and more clever. And harder to play.<BR>> <BR>> And for the last =
>20=20
> years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened<BR>> to a =
>recorded=20
> performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts to<BR>> =
>imitate=20
> what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For =
>starters<BR>>=20
> most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If I
=
>
> copy<BR>> what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody =
>emulating=20
> that particular<BR>> recording, where the expectation is that I =
>should be=20
> doing my own, different,<BR>> original version. I mean I'm quite =
>capable of=20
> doing that, but I need to learn<BR>> the tune somehow, and while I =
>have=20
> some ability to read charts, I'm hardly<BR>> an expert at it, as =
>I've found=20
> that working off the actual recordings is<BR>> generally far more =
>effective=20
> for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.<BR>> <BR>> Anybody =
>know of=20
> somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards <BR>> "as =
>they're=20
> written"? A reference point as to how the original melody goes<BR>> =
>before=20
> people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such=20
> thing... ...would<BR>> be handy, for me at least. =
>MIDI=20
> files even might be ideal.<BR>> <BR>> And of course I don't =
>actually=20
> know any real jazz musos. I know some people<BR>> who know a bit of =
>jazz,=20
> but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in jazz.<BR>> <BR>> =
>I think=20
> I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious =
>effort<BR>>=20
> into improving my chart reading skills...<BR>> <BR>> =
>Cheers,<BR>>=20
> Kim.</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67206 is a reply to message #67201] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 21:15 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>You mean you don'nt know al your chord inversions?
>That's standard requirement for R & B.
Not on guitar I don't. Well, I do know most of them, but I'm not fluent in
them. They're not second nature, which they need to be to make full use of
them while soloing. I know enough to get by in a blue tune mostly, because
blues progressions tend to move around far less than a lot of jazz. I mean
it's pretty easy to visualise the inversions for a 12 bar or something similar
on guitar, but step that up to a jazz piece, with 9ths, 11ths and 13ths,
and suddenly it's a whole new ball game.
I don't consider myself a guitarist though. I can fudge guitar for the purposes
os playing in a pop/rock outfit, where a lot of what goes down is power chords
anyhow, and everything is pretty basic. Even in these cases, guitar is my
second instrument. Typically when on stage I have a couple of keyboards,
and a guitar on hand for those tunes which are purely guitar, and then have
a "real guitarist" who actually plays the guitar parts for the most part.
I have no ambition to become a jazz guitarist though, in the near future
at least. Jazz is going to be enough work on keys as it is. ;o)
Cheers,
Kim.
|
|
|
|
| Re: OT: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67207 is a reply to message #67202] |
Fri, 21 April 2006 21:23 |
Neil OIOIUIUcom
Messages: 1
Registered: April 2006
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Then you put on your best Miles Davis impersonation & play it
off by saying: "Look muthafucka, the muthafuckin' title of the
muthafuckin' song is: 'so-muthafuckin'-what?", whihc muthafuckin' means I
can play it any muthafuckin' way I
muthafuckin' want to and you don't have SHIT to muthafuckin'
say about it!"
lol
"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Lol!!
>That'll work until the bandleader calls out "So What" by Miles Davis..Then
>what will do..He has the "Signature" lead-Bass line :)
>
>
>"Neil" <OIUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>Or: 7) Just get a fretless bass, ignore if you're playing
>>anything scalar or not, and insist that you're still
>>just "hanging on the outside".
>>
>>:)
>>
>>
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hey Kim,
>>>Jazz is a language all unto itself. You have to ask yourself:
>>>
>>>-What style of Jazz do I want to learn and Play?
>>> -Be Bop (50, 60s)
>>> -swing (30's 40's)
>>> -Big Band(40, 50s)
>>>-Smooth Jazz :)
>>>-Jazz Fusion.?
>>>This question has to be aswered first. What style of Jazz do I want to
>speak.
>>>
>>>2)Okay.Now, that you've answered question #1, you must emerse yourself
>in
>>>intense record (ear) training. Night and day. Only listening to the style
>>>you wan tot play. Find the band or intrumentalist that fit's the style,
>>and
>>>listen listen, listen.
>>>
>>>3) Find a local Jazz band that is playing the style you want to play.
Go
>>>see them often. Again,listen, listen listen.
>>>Observer and the instruemntalist moves, chords..
>>>
>>>4)Practice with your record player/CD .try to stay with Wes Montgomery.
>>The
>>>more you do this , the more that given style will become familiar.
>>>
>>>5) Leasrn to start improvising with your voice. Just start scatting lines.
>>>Then, play that line on your instrument..
>>>
>>>6)Jazz is a language that one must take very seriously.Unlike rock, pop,
>>>you must become -Jazzed about jazz.
>>>
>>>7) Lastly,learn all of your Modes & Scales and practice singing them..Above
>>>all, dedicate your life to the art-form..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Kim" <hiddensounds@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, I went to a jazz gig last night. Paul Grabowsky and a bunch of
other
>>>>dudes who's names I probably would know if I knew as much about jazz
as
>>>I'd
>>>>like to. ;o)
>>>>
>>>>So this week's whim for me is that I want to switch all my musical persuits
>>>>to jazz. I mean rock is all so yesterday. ;o) Actually, it's not a sudden
>>>>whim for this week. It's been brewing for some time,but I've been avoiding
>>>>ths switch because it sounds like too much hard work.
>>>>
>>>>Part of the problem is that jazz musos, or good ones at least, are so
>good.
>>>>;o) I mean when you compare the keyboard parts in the average top ten
>tune,
>>>>to the piano part in an average jazz tune, there's no comparison. One
>is
>>>>decidedly more difficult, more advanced, and more clever. And harder
to
>>>play.
>>>>
>>>>And for the last 20 years, when I've wanted to learn a tune, I've listened
>>>>to a recorded performance of the tune, and then worked out some parts
>to
>>>>imitate what I hear, but with jazz the expectation is different. For
starters
>>>>most recorded versions are incredibly personalised to the player. If
I
>>copy
>>>>what I hear on a record, I'll just sound like somebody emulating that
>particular
>>>>recording, where the expectation is that I should be doing my own, different,
>>>>original version. I mean I'm quite capable of doing that, but I need
to
>>>learn
>>>>the tune somehow, and while I have some ability to read charts, I'm hardly
>>>>an expert at it, as I've found that working off the actual recordings
>is
>>>>generally far more effective for pop/rock music. Not so for jazz it seems.
>>>>
>>>>Anybody know of somewhere where I can download copies of jazz standards
>>>
>>>>"as they're written"? A reference point as to how the original melody
>goes
>>>>before people start "doing jazz" to it? Bet there's no such thing...
>
>>
>>>..would
>>>>be handy, for me at least. MIDI files even might be ideal.
>>>>
>>>>And of course I don't actually know any real jazz musos. I know some
people
>>>>who know a bit of jazz, but nobody where I'd say there expertise is in
>>jazz.
>>>>
>>>>I think I just need to bite the bullet and start putting some serious
>effort
>>>>into improving my chart reading skills...
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Kim.
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The trouble with learning jazz... [message #67209 is a reply to message #67208] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 01:07 |
Kim
Messages: 1246
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"Neil" <OIOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>In any event - I believe you have to do that which you love,
>regardless...
Well with music, if you don't love it, you simply can't be dedicated enough
to rise above the pack. Being really good comes from sheer hard work, and
you're only going to do that work for the love of it, because record companies
don't pay you to spend 5 years in the back room getting your chops up to
scratch. ;o)
>look at me, I do Progressive Rock, for God's
>Sake! If there's anything more niche & obscure than Jazz at
>this point in time, it's that! lol
Hehe, no it's not in the current "pop rock" scene really is it? Like you
say, you've gotta do what you love though, or it's pointless. I mean music
is art, and you can't create art unless you have a passion for it.
I'm just not sure if this jazz phase will last long enough (20 years? ;o)
for me to become a really good jazz player, but even if I just go through
a 12 month fad, I'm bound to come out the other side with a far better understanding
of music, and that's gotta count for something. :o)
Cheers,
Kim.
>
>Neil
|
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|
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