Home » The PARIS Forums » PARIS: Main » Editing rock'n'roll drums
| Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91154] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 14:13  |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I spent
the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this? If
not, do you do something else?
Thanks,
TCB
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91157 is a reply to message #91155] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 15:03  |
Cujjo
Messages: 325
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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I never gate drums, but in some busy tunes, I edit the tom tracks. I'm pretty
over samples for now anyway.
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>I'm almost embarrassed to post this but the "kick" preset on UAD-1's Neve
>88RS plugin has such an efficient use of gating, EQ and compression that
>just dropping it on a kick absolutely transforms it into something
>altogether different........and different in a good.....err......no, not
>good......great way. Drumagog is also your friend in this situation and
>using Drumagog BFD with the Neve 88RS...well......anyway....
>
>
>;o)
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:470a9d67$1@linux...
>>
>> Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>> spent
>> the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>> Monkiedrums.
>> So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>
>> In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
all
>> of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>> sonic
>> trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>
>> First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
If
>> not, do you do something else?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> TCB
>
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91159 is a reply to message #91154] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 15:35 |
neil[1]
Messages: 164
Registered: October 2006
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Senior Member |
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I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
long as each fade sounds natural.
When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
includes a certain amount of leakage. Now, I will admit this
much: back in the late 80's/early 90's I used to gate the shit
out of drums, because there was a certain discrete sound that
came from doing that, but I don't do that anymore.
Actually, Thad, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider doing
that (editing or gating), I kinda thought I recall you
mentioning you had a lot of taste for the lo-fi - if that's the
case, then the more bleed, the better, usually.
Neil
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I spent
>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>
>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>
>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
If
>not, do you do something else?
>
>Thanks,
>
>TCB
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91163 is a reply to message #91159] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 16:09 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:470ab0bb$1@linux...
>
> I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
> of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
> then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
> long as each fade sounds natural.
Check. Only exception is when I get a weak performance/drum under a mic in
the snare or kick dept and the bleed is just too much. Not often, but has
happened and I usually have to edit the 'non' hits out and trigger a sample
in these cases.
> When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
> use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
> organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
> includes a certain amount of leakage.
Check.
> Neil
Yup, we agree on this process, but I might also add that it really depends
on the player, the kit, the room, the mic placement and the song as to what
vibe I'm batting for. Gating is the lazy way to fix those kinds of things
(and the sound suffers for it IMHO) that should be attacked manually to keep
a real kit vibe going. If you're going after the Phil Collins thing, well
then gating will be your tool of choice. retriggin' samples off a sloppy kit
can get pretty sketchy, and you're fairly well assured to kill any finesse
or ghost notes, and that is where the vibe lives, again IMHO. I've never dug
gates, and in the 90's I had some DOD piece (single rack, 4 'gates') that
allowed leakage via potentiometer using DBX VCA's in it. Jeez, I wish I
still had that thing, you could dial up the 'organic' right there on it but
control the bleed factor.
Happy editing!
AA
> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>>spent
>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>>Monkiedrums.
>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>
>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>>sonic
>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>
>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
> If
>>not, do you do something else?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TCB
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91164 is a reply to message #91159] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 16:38 |
TCB
Messages: 1261
Registered: July 2007
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Senior Member |
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Believe me, Neil, If had a great sounding kit in a great room I'd do everything
with five great mics and wouldn't edit a thing. But to steal a line from
the Donny Rumsfeld Quote Book you don't make a record with the drums and
room you want, you make a record with the drums and room you have. In this
case I'm fighting the room (a lot) and the kit (a little, it's a Yamaha Recording
Custom kit, good drums but not stylistically perfect for the sound I want).
Lastly, the Monkies tend to layer it on a bit when it comes to guitars/vox/keys
later on, so I'm sure we're going to be going for much more of the spot mics
than I would like given my own stylistic tendencies.
I'm trying to be flexible with these guys. I have my own (very strong) opinions,
but even though I'm kind of in charge of the recording I think I have to
respect the ideas and sonic preferences of the whole band. We even used a
click for the drum tracks because the drummer actually _likes_ to record
with a click.
Favorite drums I've ever recorded were an old Ludwig maple kit that had what
I swear were bullet holes in one of the toms. I got to use a huge concert
hall at Yale and tracked with two Octava overheads, an SM-57 on the snare,
I forget what kick mic, and a stereo pair about ten rows into the hall for
ambience. This time I'm recording in a 14x12x11 room that is on the end of
someones garage. A slightly different animal I fear.
Thanks for the tips, I think I'm just going to do what I did before, even
if it is pretty time consuming.
TCB
"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
>of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
>then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
>long as each fade sounds natural.
>
>When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
>use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
>organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
>includes a certain amount of leakage. Now, I will admit this
>much: back in the late 80's/early 90's I used to gate the shit
>out of drums, because there was a certain discrete sound that
>came from doing that, but I don't do that anymore.
>
>Actually, Thad, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider doing
>that (editing or gating), I kinda thought I recall you
>mentioning you had a lot of taste for the lo-fi - if that's the
>case, then the more bleed, the better, usually.
>
>Neil
>
>
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
spent
>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>
>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>
>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>If
>>not, do you do something else?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TCB
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91171 is a reply to message #91157] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 17:50 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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Me too/either. I was completely off the idea of using gates and samples
until I got the UAD-1 Neve 88RS.
;o)
"Cujo" <chris@applemanstudio.com> wrote in message news:470aa919$1@linux...
>
>
> I never gate drums, but in some busy tunes, I edit the tom tracks. I'm
> pretty
> over samples for now anyway.
>
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>I'm almost embarrassed to post this but the "kick" preset on UAD-1's Neve
>
>>88RS plugin has such an efficient use of gating, EQ and compression that
>
>>just dropping it on a kick absolutely transforms it into something
>>altogether different........and different in a good.....err......no, not
>
>>good......great way. Drumagog is also your friend in this situation and
>
>>using Drumagog BFD with the Neve 88RS...well......anyway....
>>
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:470a9d67$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>
>>> spent
>>> the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>>> Monkiedrums.
>>> So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>
>>> In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
> all
>>> of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>
>>> sonic
>>> trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>
>>> First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
> If
>>> not, do you do something else?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> TCB
>>
>>
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91172 is a reply to message #91164] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 18:03 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the tips, I think I'm just going to do what I did before, even
>if it is pretty time consuming.
In that case, you can save yourself some headaches, you know,
if you just use the Hitpoints feature in SX that allows you to
chop/segment tracks at the start of each hit. This'll work
great for your kick & snare tracks (which have the most strikes
on 'em anyway), but horribly for toms (which have the least -
in most cases, anyway). Do that for the kick track, then double-
click on it once it's segmented & then zoom all the way out so
you can select the whole track (all the hit segments) at once.
Now, zoom back in so that you can see individual waveforms, but
keep all of them selected.
THEN... decrease the "end" lengh of each hit till it's right at
the end of the main kick waveform, and apply a fade (you're
doing all of 'em at once, remember), NEXT - with all of the
hits still selected - click the start point of all of 'em over
to the left one notch & apply a short fadeup to just before the
start of the waveform... this eliminates any clicks/pops as
each file segment plays. Using this method, you'll no doubt
have to go back in & edit the fades on some double-kick hits,
quick accents, etc., but it's still going to take you less time
to do that than it would to start from the beginning of the
song & labor your way through it hit by hit.
Repeat this process with the snare track. Tom tracks, just do
by hand.
I know you wrote the (a) book on Cubase, but I thought I'd
mention this in case you haven't tried this method yet - will
save you a ton of time.
Neil
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91175 is a reply to message #91154] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 18:47 |
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I let 'em hum 90% of the time. I think the "hum" is an important part of
the sound of drums. I've tried to get that incredibly clean, almost sample-like
sound that, for example, Roger Nichols gets on a lot of Steely Dan stuff
but I seem to almost always prefer the "hum". One project in 10 might cry
out for the edited/gated tom sound and for those I'll gate the toms (sometimes
snare and/or kick but not as often) and sometimes I'll edit them. Whatever
works...
Gantt
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I spent
>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>
>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>
>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
If
>not, do you do something else?
>
>Thanks,
>
>TCB
Gantt Kushner
Gizmo Recording Company
Silver Spring, MD
www.gizmorecording.com
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91176 is a reply to message #91164] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 18:56 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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Thad,
Upload the kick track to a server and I'll DL it and apply the Neve 88RS to
is and upload it to another server for you. wouldn't hurt to try. You might
like it.......and/or if you want, I'll run it through Drumagog BFD and send
you back a few different kicks that you could use. I've got
.......oh.....something like 20 different high end, unprocessed BFD kicks
here. ^The Drumagog BFD can filter part/all of the noise out of the kick and
leave you with a relatively pristine product that you can then integrate
back into you room by way of paralleling it with your original kick track
and/or mixing in the room/OH mics.
Deej
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote in message news:470abf68$1@linux...
>
> Believe me, Neil, If had a great sounding kit in a great room I'd do
> everything
> with five great mics and wouldn't edit a thing. But to steal a line from
> the Donny Rumsfeld Quote Book you don't make a record with the drums and
> room you want, you make a record with the drums and room you have. In this
> case I'm fighting the room (a lot) and the kit (a little, it's a Yamaha
> Recording
> Custom kit, good drums but not stylistically perfect for the sound I
> want).
> Lastly, the Monkies tend to layer it on a bit when it comes to
> guitars/vox/keys
> later on, so I'm sure we're going to be going for much more of the spot
> mics
> than I would like given my own stylistic tendencies.
>
> I'm trying to be flexible with these guys. I have my own (very strong)
> opinions,
> but even though I'm kind of in charge of the recording I think I have to
> respect the ideas and sonic preferences of the whole band. We even used a
> click for the drum tracks because the drummer actually _likes_ to record
> with a click.
>
> Favorite drums I've ever recorded were an old Ludwig maple kit that had
> what
> I swear were bullet holes in one of the toms. I got to use a huge concert
> hall at Yale and tracked with two Octava overheads, an SM-57 on the snare,
> I forget what kick mic, and a stereo pair about ten rows into the hall for
> ambience. This time I'm recording in a 14x12x11 room that is on the end of
> someones garage. A slightly different animal I fear.
>
> Thanks for the tips, I think I'm just going to do what I did before, even
> if it is pretty time consuming.
>
> TCB
>
> "Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote:
>>
>>I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
>>of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
>>then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
>>long as each fade sounds natural.
>>
>>When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
>>use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
>>organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
>>includes a certain amount of leakage. Now, I will admit this
>>much: back in the late 80's/early 90's I used to gate the shit
>>out of drums, because there was a certain discrete sound that
>>came from doing that, but I don't do that anymore.
>>
>>Actually, Thad, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider doing
>>that (editing or gating), I kinda thought I recall you
>>mentioning you had a lot of taste for the lo-fi - if that's the
>>case, then the more bleed, the better, usually.
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
> spent
>>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>>>Monkiedrums.
>>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>
>>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>>>sonic
>>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>
>>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>>If
>>>not, do you do something else?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>TCB
>>
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91178 is a reply to message #91163] |
Mon, 08 October 2007 19:21 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"Aaron Allen" <know-spam@not_here.dude> wrote:
>Yup, we agree on this process, but I might also add that it
>really depends on the player, the kit, the room, the mic
>placement and the song as to what vibe I'm batting for. Gating
>is the lazy way to fix those kinds of things
>(and the sound suffers for it IMHO) that should be attacked
>manually to keep a real kit vibe going.
Here's the biggest downside of gating (or editing leakage
manually), as I see it: The Snare.
Toms, no biggie - I probably "need" to gate or edit those anyway
because unless I've got some condensor mics on 'em AND I'm
going for a more natural sound, then I'm going to be doing some
crazy shit on the EQ side like boosting 7k & 10-12k a ton,
carving out some low mids, and then boosting somewhere in the
100hz zone perhaps, as well. Maybe 700hz too if I want
some more "pong" in there. Now that sounds great on the tom
hits, but what about all the cymbals & rest of the kit in
between? YEECH! Pretty harsh, to say the least. So it's
edit/gate/automate.
Kick - also no biggie, because you so often don't get all that
much of the rest of the kit in there anyway (assuming we're
talking about an inside-the-kick mic), and I like a totally
open front on the kick, too! So, gate, don't gate - with the
kick it's usually not a problem. Biggest issues in this
department come with double-kickers, where they're doing 16th
notes on the kicks & you've got snare hits on top of kick hits.
Sometimes the snare can screw you up there, but if you use a
frequency-keyed gate, it can easily be worked around.
Snare... now THIS is the beeyatch. If you have to tweak the
track a lot, EQ, compression, yet more compression, more EQ -
hey do we have any more bands of EQ? Then yer pretty much fukt
& you will almost definitely have to gate it - how do you know?
Well, because if you're having to tweak THAT much to get a
decent snare sound, then think of how the hi-hat right next to
it is going to sound through the majorly-tweaked snare mic!
Think of how the rest of the kit's going to sound through that
same mic that you're (more than likely) going to want kind of
in the forefront - yeah, the one that you've boosted 18 db at
5k, and another 12 at 7k just to get that "crack" just right,
and also at 10k because now you've got the 'crack" but you've
lost the "zing", and just to lose some of that shoebox sound,
you've cut a big swath out of 300hz - ok, let's add another EQ
plugin & cut the same at 400, but with a sharper "Q" setting so
we don't lose the 500 we need for some body... hmm - sounds a
little thin, better add some 120hz. And all that's compressed
with an LA2A emulation on that track on top of an SSL quadcomp
emulation across the whole kit.
So now you have to gate the snare, so you do... problem is, on
all the hat hits (half of which are executed AT THE SAME TIME as
the 2 & 4 on the snare) you're still hearing some harsh hat
tone through the snare mic... can't get rid of it though, even
if you gate/edit real tight, because the initial part of the
hat strike still comes through... so then you end up with a big
pulsing hi-hat thing going on & this also means that you can't
pan the regular hat channel at all (otherwise, you'll hear it
going from side to center as the snare gate does it's thing).
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have to have
good snare mic placement - using the null in your snare mic's
pickup pattern to minimize how much hat gets in there in the
first place - in order to successfuly gate your snare... and if
you have good snare mic placement, then it also follows that
usually you don't have to tweak the snare track much... and if
you don't have to tweak the snare track much, then the rest of
the kit through that mic sounds pretty natural, hence no need
to gate it in the first place!
And then you get to pan your hi-hat!
:D
Neil
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91182 is a reply to message #91159] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 01:59 |
Sarah
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2007
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Senior Member |
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Same here, tom tracks only, and then not always. I only have live drums on
final versions, and sometimes I like the racket and leave it in. It's like
.. . . all organic and stuff. :)
S
"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:470ab0bb$1@linux...
>
> I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
> of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
> then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
> long as each fade sounds natural.
>
> When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
> use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
> organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
> includes a certain amount of leakage. Now, I will admit this
> much: back in the late 80's/early 90's I used to gate the shit
> out of drums, because there was a certain discrete sound that
> came from doing that, but I don't do that anymore.
>
> Actually, Thad, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider doing
> that (editing or gating), I kinda thought I recall you
> mentioning you had a lot of taste for the lo-fi - if that's the
> case, then the more bleed, the better, usually.
>
> Neil
>
>
> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>>spent
>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>>Monkiedrums.
>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>
>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>>sonic
>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>
>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
> If
>>not, do you do something else?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TCB
>
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| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91192 is a reply to message #91182] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 11:39 |
Cujjo
Messages: 325
Registered: June 2007
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Senior Member |
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What she said and stuff.
I have tried the Paris gate for effect, but it's latency seems to render
it useless on drums for me. I have tried a posted compensation number, but
still did not sound right to me.
"Sarah" <sarahjane@sarahtonin.com> wrote:
>Same here, tom tracks only, and then not always. I only have live drums
on
>final versions, and sometimes I like the racket and leave it in. It's like
>. . . all organic and stuff. :)
>
>S
>
>"Neil" <IOUOIU@OIU.com> wrote in message news:470ab0bb$1@linux...
>>
>> I do it with Tom tracks, but that's it... I just trim the start
>> of each roll/fill right up to the beginning of the first hit,
>> then fade out the last hit in no particular length, just as
>> long as each fade sounds natural.
>>
>> When I'm working with real drums, then I'm definitely going to
>> use the "organic-ness" (organosity? organisiousness?
>> organitude? :) ) of the atmospheere of the whole kit, which
>> includes a certain amount of leakage. Now, I will admit this
>> much: back in the late 80's/early 90's I used to gate the shit
>> out of drums, because there was a certain discrete sound that
>> came from doing that, but I don't do that anymore.
>>
>> Actually, Thad, I'm kinda surprised you'd even consider doing
>> that (editing or gating), I kinda thought I recall you
>> mentioning you had a lot of taste for the lo-fi - if that's the
>> case, then the more bleed, the better, usually.
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
>> "TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>>>spent
>>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing
>>>Monkiedrums.
>>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>
>>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
all
>>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>>>sonic
>>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>
>>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>> If
>>>not, do you do something else?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>TCB
>>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91197 is a reply to message #91154] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 13:46 |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Wow, after reading the other posts, I feel kind of wierd saying this, but
I like to use gates on the toms. I like the Paris gate a lot. I use the analog
x gate or sinus Golden gate if I want to render the tracks. I do a lot of
drum tracks for people and this works really good for me, and everyone always
comments on likeing my toms. I like them because I can let how ever much
"rumble" I want to get through. I don't use any lookahead on the Paris gate.
With no lookahead,it adds 2 samples latency, usually not a big deal, and
sometimes I like the coloration, but if I want to have them totally transparent,
I just back the toms up 1 paris ms, and add 78 samples, via sampleslide.
This will make them totally sample accurate. I like the Paris gates better
than the other 2 that I mentioned, but the native ones have no latency, and
work well also.
I've tried the automation thing with the toms, and for me it's not as good.
I really don't like cutting the space out between the toms all together,
it sounds too much like "parts is parts"
I don't do anything gate wise to the kik or snare.
FWIW, I'm currently mixing an album that I played on most of the tracks but
the artist hired a "BIG" name drummer for a couple tracks, like one of the
biggest, who is known for his drum sound and engineering chops. The artist
really liked my tom sound better than his, soooo, I'm mixing his tracks to
make them sound like mine. Thankfully he didn't gate the toms on the multi
tracks, I'm gating them, but letting "just enough" through to glue everything
together.
Anyway that's how I like to do it, it really does depend on the drummer though.
If the Hihat is bleeding all over the snare mic, then it may be time for
drumagog.
Rod
"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>
>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I spent
>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>
>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>
>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
If
>not, do you do something else?
>
>Thanks,
>
>TCB
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91203 is a reply to message #91197] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 15:07 |
|
|
me too. I use Paris's gates on live drums. But I think what we are dealing
with hear is :
- Era of Music
- Genre Of Music Style.
Like Reverb. in the 80's we spattered verb all over the place. Gate verb
settings on the kits..
90's..Rooms settings and Plates..
New Millenium- Dry,to natural ambience is the sound ..
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Wow, after reading the other posts, I feel kind of wierd saying this, but
>I like to use gates on the toms. I like the Paris gate a lot. I use the
analog
>x gate or sinus Golden gate if I want to render the tracks. I do a lot of
>drum tracks for people and this works really good for me, and everyone always
>comments on likeing my toms. I like them because I can let how ever much
>"rumble" I want to get through. I don't use any lookahead on the Paris gate.
>With no lookahead,it adds 2 samples latency, usually not a big deal, and
>sometimes I like the coloration, but if I want to have them totally transparent,
>I just back the toms up 1 paris ms, and add 78 samples, via sampleslide.
>This will make them totally sample accurate. I like the Paris gates better
>than the other 2 that I mentioned, but the native ones have no latency,
and
>work well also.
>I've tried the automation thing with the toms, and for me it's not as good.
>I really don't like cutting the space out between the toms all together,
>it sounds too much like "parts is parts"
>
>I don't do anything gate wise to the kik or snare.
>
>FWIW, I'm currently mixing an album that I played on most of the tracks
but
>the artist hired a "BIG" name drummer for a couple tracks, like one of the
>biggest, who is known for his drum sound and engineering chops. The artist
>really liked my tom sound better than his, soooo, I'm mixing his tracks
to
>make them sound like mine. Thankfully he didn't gate the toms on the multi
>tracks, I'm gating them, but letting "just enough" through to glue everything
>together.
>Anyway that's how I like to do it, it really does depend on the drummer
though.
>If the Hihat is bleeding all over the snare mic, then it may be time for
>drumagog.
>Rod
>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>
>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
spent
>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>
>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited all
>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra sonic
>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>
>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>If
>>not, do you do something else?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TCB
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91225 is a reply to message #91203] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 22:04 |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Exactly...Thad's band (as I remember some past posts, correct me if I'm wrong
Thad)like's thing raw. Editing out the in between stuff totally makes for
a "not organic" sound, and for whatever reason using automation isn't my
favorite way either...I've tried it several times. I can hear it.
Using the gates, I can control the bleed, letting as much pass as I want.
I can still get a raw sound, but just a little more controled. Gates can
be a pain sometimes also, that's why I've tried automation. But for me, for
this kind of music, that's what I'd recommend.
Rod
"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>me too. I use Paris's gates on live drums. But I think what we are dealing
>with hear is :
>
>- Era of Music
>- Genre Of Music Style.
>
>Like Reverb. in the 80's we spattered verb all over the place. Gate verb
>settings on the kits..
>
>90's..Rooms settings and Plates..
>
>New Millenium- Dry,to natural ambience is the sound ..
>
>
>
>
>
>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>Wow, after reading the other posts, I feel kind of wierd saying this, but
>>I like to use gates on the toms. I like the Paris gate a lot. I use the
>analog
>>x gate or sinus Golden gate if I want to render the tracks. I do a lot
of
>>drum tracks for people and this works really good for me, and everyone
always
>>comments on likeing my toms. I like them because I can let how ever much
>>"rumble" I want to get through. I don't use any lookahead on the Paris
gate.
>>With no lookahead,it adds 2 samples latency, usually not a big deal, and
>>sometimes I like the coloration, but if I want to have them totally transparent,
>>I just back the toms up 1 paris ms, and add 78 samples, via sampleslide.
>>This will make them totally sample accurate. I like the Paris gates better
>>than the other 2 that I mentioned, but the native ones have no latency,
>and
>>work well also.
>>I've tried the automation thing with the toms, and for me it's not as good.
>>I really don't like cutting the space out between the toms all together,
>>it sounds too much like "parts is parts"
>>
>>I don't do anything gate wise to the kik or snare.
>>
>>FWIW, I'm currently mixing an album that I played on most of the tracks
>but
>>the artist hired a "BIG" name drummer for a couple tracks, like one of
the
>>biggest, who is known for his drum sound and engineering chops. The artist
>>really liked my tom sound better than his, soooo, I'm mixing his tracks
>to
>>make them sound like mine. Thankfully he didn't gate the toms on the multi
>>tracks, I'm gating them, but letting "just enough" through to glue everything
>>together.
>>Anyway that's how I like to do it, it really does depend on the drummer
>though.
>>If the Hihat is bleeding all over the snare mic, then it may be time for
>>drumagog.
>>Rod
>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office I
>spent
>>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>
>>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
all
>>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
sonic
>>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>
>>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>>If
>>>not, do you do something else?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>TCB
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91226 is a reply to message #91225] |
Tue, 09 October 2007 22:07 |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Just to be clear...I'm not talking any tight gated Phil collins sounds. You'd
never know anything was used, it would just be clean.
Rod
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Exactly...Thad's band (as I remember some past posts, correct me if I'm
wrong
>Thad)like's thing raw. Editing out the in between stuff totally makes for
>a "not organic" sound, and for whatever reason using automation isn't my
>favorite way either...I've tried it several times. I can hear it.
>Using the gates, I can control the bleed, letting as much pass as I want.
>I can still get a raw sound, but just a little more controled. Gates can
>be a pain sometimes also, that's why I've tried automation. But for me,
for
>this kind of music, that's what I'd recommend.
>Rod
>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>me too. I use Paris's gates on live drums. But I think what we are dealing
>>with hear is :
>>
>>- Era of Music
>>- Genre Of Music Style.
>>
>>Like Reverb. in the 80's we spattered verb all over the place. Gate verb
>>settings on the kits..
>>
>>90's..Rooms settings and Plates..
>>
>>New Millenium- Dry,to natural ambience is the sound ..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Wow, after reading the other posts, I feel kind of wierd saying this,
but
>>>I like to use gates on the toms. I like the Paris gate a lot. I use the
>>analog
>>>x gate or sinus Golden gate if I want to render the tracks. I do a lot
>of
>>>drum tracks for people and this works really good for me, and everyone
>always
>>>comments on likeing my toms. I like them because I can let how ever much
>>>"rumble" I want to get through. I don't use any lookahead on the Paris
>gate.
>>>With no lookahead,it adds 2 samples latency, usually not a big deal, and
>>>sometimes I like the coloration, but if I want to have them totally transparent,
>>>I just back the toms up 1 paris ms, and add 78 samples, via sampleslide.
>>>This will make them totally sample accurate. I like the Paris gates better
>>>than the other 2 that I mentioned, but the native ones have no latency,
>>and
>>>work well also.
>>>I've tried the automation thing with the toms, and for me it's not as
good.
>>>I really don't like cutting the space out between the toms all together,
>>>it sounds too much like "parts is parts"
>>>
>>>I don't do anything gate wise to the kik or snare.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I'm currently mixing an album that I played on most of the tracks
>>but
>>>the artist hired a "BIG" name drummer for a couple tracks, like one of
>the
>>>biggest, who is known for his drum sound and engineering chops. The artist
>>>really liked my tom sound better than his, soooo, I'm mixing his tracks
>>to
>>>make them sound like mine. Thankfully he didn't gate the toms on the multi
>>>tracks, I'm gating them, but letting "just enough" through to glue everything
>>>together.
>>>Anyway that's how I like to do it, it really does depend on the drummer
>>though.
>>>If the Hihat is bleeding all over the snare mic, then it may be time for
>>>drumagog.
>>>Rod
>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office
I
>>spent
>>>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>>>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>>
>>>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
>all
>>>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>sonic
>>>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>>
>>>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>>>If
>>>>not, do you do something else?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>TCB
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91232 is a reply to message #91224] |
Wed, 10 October 2007 05:30 |
Nei
Messages: 108
Registered: November 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
lol, not Tom's... TOMS! Tom-Toms, you know, the things that
drummers used to have twelve of but now it's hard find a kid
with more than two of 'em on his kit?
What I was saying is that several posts, mine included, stated
that they frequently find themselves gating toms, but not kick
& snare; so if that's what you do most often as well, why would
you be feeling like the odd man out?
Note that I said "frequently", not frequency" - don't want
to have you coming back & say: "WTF, Tom never said anything
about only gating certain frequencies!"
:D
Neil
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.som> wrote:
>
>Tom???
>I don't see any post from Tom.
>I just meant most posts seemed to be bagging on gating stuff. So I was taking
>the unpopular stance. That's what I ment by weird.
>Rod
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91234 is a reply to message #91232] |
Wed, 10 October 2007 06:11 |
Rod Lincoln
Messages: 883
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Oh man....your post seems so clear this morning. Can't believe I thought you
were talking about Tom instead of "a tom" last night, just goes to show you
what a good night's sleep will do.
Rod
"Neil" <OIUOI@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>lol, not Tom's... TOMS! Tom-Toms, you know, the things that
>drummers used to have twelve of but now it's hard find a kid
>with more than two of 'em on his kit?
>
>What I was saying is that several posts, mine included, stated
>that they frequently find themselves gating toms, but not kick
>& snare; so if that's what you do most often as well, why would
>you be feeling like the odd man out?
>
>Note that I said "frequently", not frequency" - don't want
>to have you coming back & say: "WTF, Tom never said anything
>about only gating certain frequencies!"
>
>:D
>
>Neil
>
>
>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.som> wrote:
>>
>>Tom???
>>I don't see any post from Tom.
>>I just meant most posts seemed to be bagging on gating stuff. So I was
taking
>>the unpopular stance. That's what I ment by weird.
>>Rod
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91235 is a reply to message #91226] |
Wed, 10 October 2007 06:13 |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I get what you mean - you're not letting the gates close all
the way, so you've still got SOME kit bleed coming through the
tom mics, but not as high a degree of bleed as you would get if
you hadn't gated them at all.
FYI when I was mentioning that I used to gate the hell out of
drums back during "that" era, I wasn't necessarily referring to
the Collins gated-reverb thang or gated-live-ambience (although
in SOME cases, yes, that was the intent) I was really referring
to gating the drums themselves - the purpose being to get more
of a discrete drum sound... I think that's mainly a Def Leppard
influence there - for awhile there, it seems lots of the rock
guys were asking: "Can you get my drums to sound like this?"
and they'd hold up a copy of Pyromania. So, sometimes you'd
trigger samples even back then but most often I could get
something they liked with just the kit itself. Gate the kick,
snare, toms, add some exciter to the toms to enhance the stick
hit, all these discrete, distinct drum sounds that would just
seem to explode when you applied any 'verb to 'em, since there
was no rumble behind anything except the overheads & hat mic.
I think Lamont's right in the sense that nowadays the trend
seems to be going back to a more natural kit ambience, but it's
obviously supplemented by a lot of samples, and in modern rock
or metal it's also a whole different feel - no one's really
looking for that "exploding" drum sound, they want the drums to
be a constant roar - just look at how much these newer guys are
all over the brass CONSTANTLY, they've gone from that splashy
open-hat sound to simply using crashes as hi-hats, more or less.
Fills are a lot shorter than they used to be, there's no
measure-long tom rolls, as that would take them off the cymbals
too long LOL and it's generally a more straight-ahead style,
in my view... you gotta keep that drive and angst going. :D
OK, now I feel old. lol
Neil
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Just to be clear...I'm not talking any tight gated Phil collins sounds.
You'd
>never know anything was used, it would just be clean.
>Rod
>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>Exactly...Thad's band (as I remember some past posts, correct me if I'm
>wrong
>>Thad)like's thing raw. Editing out the in between stuff totally makes for
>>a "not organic" sound, and for whatever reason using automation isn't my
>>favorite way either...I've tried it several times. I can hear it.
>>Using the gates, I can control the bleed, letting as much pass as I want.
>>I can still get a raw sound, but just a little more controled. Gates can
>>be a pain sometimes also, that's why I've tried automation. But for me,
>for
>>this kind of music, that's what I'd recommend.
>>Rod
>>"LaMont" <jjdpro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>me too. I use Paris's gates on live drums. But I think what we are dealing
>>>with hear is :
>>>
>>>- Era of Music
>>>- Genre Of Music Style.
>>>
>>>Like Reverb. in the 80's we spattered verb all over the place. Gate verb
>>>settings on the kits..
>>>
>>>90's..Rooms settings and Plates..
>>>
>>>New Millenium- Dry,to natural ambience is the sound ..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Wow, after reading the other posts, I feel kind of wierd saying this,
>but
>>>>I like to use gates on the toms. I like the Paris gate a lot. I use the
>>>analog
>>>>x gate or sinus Golden gate if I want to render the tracks. I do a lot
>>of
>>>>drum tracks for people and this works really good for me, and everyone
>>always
>>>>comments on likeing my toms. I like them because I can let how ever much
>>>>"rumble" I want to get through. I don't use any lookahead on the Paris
>>gate.
>>>>With no lookahead,it adds 2 samples latency, usually not a big deal,
and
>>>>sometimes I like the coloration, but if I want to have them totally transparent,
>>>>I just back the toms up 1 paris ms, and add 78 samples, via sampleslide.
>>>>This will make them totally sample accurate. I like the Paris gates better
>>>>than the other 2 that I mentioned, but the native ones have no latency,
>>>and
>>>>work well also.
>>>>I've tried the automation thing with the toms, and for me it's not as
>good.
>>>>I really don't like cutting the space out between the toms all together,
>>>>it sounds too much like "parts is parts"
>>>>
>>>>I don't do anything gate wise to the kik or snare.
>>>>
>>>>FWIW, I'm currently mixing an album that I played on most of the tracks
>>>but
>>>>the artist hired a "BIG" name drummer for a couple tracks, like one of
>>the
>>>>biggest, who is known for his drum sound and engineering chops. The artist
>>>>really liked my tom sound better than his, soooo, I'm mixing his tracks
>>>to
>>>>make them sound like mine. Thankfully he didn't gate the toms on the
multi
>>>>tracks, I'm gating them, but letting "just enough" through to glue everything
>>>>together.
>>>>Anyway that's how I like to do it, it really does depend on the drummer
>>>though.
>>>>If the Hihat is bleeding all over the snare mic, then it may be time
for
>>>>drumagog.
>>>>Rod
>>>>"TCB" <nobody@ishere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Greetings, Parisians! After missing AES thanks to work in the office
>I
>>>spent
>>>>>the rest of the weekend in a stinking hot recording room doing Monkiedrums.
>>>>>So then, I how have six tunes to edit.
>>>>>
>>>>>In previous experiences doing this lovely task I have manually edited
>>all
>>>>>of the kick/snare/tom mics instead of using gates to get rid of extra
>>sonic
>>>>>trash bleeding through from the rest of the kit.
>>>>>
>>>>>First, do you folks who work a lot with acoustic drums usually do this?
>>>>If
>>>>>not, do you do something else?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>TCB
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Editing rock'n'roll drums [message #91236 is a reply to message #91234] |
Wed, 10 October 2007 06:39 |
Tom Bruhl
Messages: 1368
Registered: June 2007
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0359_01C80B21.79A434D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey you guys quit talking about me behind my back!
Tom
Paris gate is great but not all the time.
"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com> wrote in message =
news:470ccf81$1@linux...
Oh man....your post seems so clear this morning. Can't believe I =
thought you
were talking about Tom instead of "a tom" last night, just goes to =
show you
what a good night's sleep will do.
Rod
"Neil" <OIUOI@OIU.com> wrote:
>
>lol, not Tom's... TOMS! Tom-Toms, you know, the things that
>drummers used to have twelve of but now it's hard find a kid
>with more than two of 'em on his kit?
>
>What I was saying is that several posts, mine included, stated
>that they frequently find themselves gating toms, but not kick
>& snare; so if that's what you do most often as well, why would
>you be feeling like the odd man out?
>
>Note that I said "frequently", not frequency" - don't want
>to have you coming back & say: "WTF, Tom never said anything
>about only gating certain frequencies!"
>
>:D
>
>Neil
>
>
>"Rod Lincoln" <rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.som> wrote:
>>
>>Tom???
>>I don't see any post from Tom.
>>I just meant most posts seemed to be bagging on gating stuff. So I =
was
taking
>>the unpopular stance. That's what I ment by weird.=20
>>Rod
>
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
------=_NextPart_000_0359_01C80B21.79A434D0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey you guys quit talking about me =
behind my=20
back!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paris gate is great but not all the=20
time.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rod Lincoln" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com">rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.com</A>&g=
t;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:470ccf81$1@linux">news:470ccf81$1@linux</A>...</DIV><BR>Oh=20
man....your post seems so clear this morning. Can't believe I thought=20
you<BR>were talking about Tom instead of "a tom" last night, just goes =
to show=20
you<BR>what a good night's sleep will do.<BR>Rod<BR>"Neil" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:OIUOI@OIU.com">OIUOI@OIU.com</A>> =
wrote:<BR>><BR>>lol,=20
not Tom's... TOMS! Tom-Toms, you know, the things =
that<BR>>drummers=20
used to have twelve of but now it's hard find a kid<BR>>with more =
than two=20
of 'em on his kit?<BR>><BR>>What I was saying is that several =
posts,=20
mine included, stated<BR>>that they frequently find themselves =
gating toms,=20
but not kick<BR>>& snare; so if that's what you do most often =
as well,=20
why would<BR>>you be feeling like the odd man =
out?<BR>><BR>>Note that=20
I said "frequently", not frequency" - don't want<BR>>to have you =
coming=20
back & say: "WTF, Tom never said anything<BR>>about only gating =
certain=20
=
frequencies!"<BR>><BR>>:D<BR>><BR >>Neil<BR>><BR>><BR>&g=
t;"Rod=20
Lincoln" <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.som">rlincoln@nospam.kc.rr.som</A>&g=
t;=20
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>Tom???<BR >>>I don't see any post =
from=20
Tom.<BR>>>I just meant most posts seemed to be bagging on gating =
stuff.=20
So I was<BR>taking<BR>>>the unpopular stance. That's what I ment =
by=20
weird. <BR>>>Rod<BR>><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, =
and=20
you?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html">http://www.polesoft.com/refer=
..html</A> </FONT></DIV></BODY ></HTML>
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