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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93219 is a reply to message #93213] |
Fri, 30 November 2007 18:52   |
Neil
Messages: 1645
Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member |
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"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>I recently purchased a Milennia SST-1.
>
>http://www.mil-media.com/stt-1.html
That fuckin' RAWKS! I want it in the Platinum finish <drool,
drool> lol. :D
>It's just a matter of pushing a couple of buttons to dispel
>the notion that a tube circuit has "anything" at all to do
>with what is bandied about as "warmth".
A few years ago, ISTR a disussion here that was actually
spurred by a Scott Dorsey response to something I posted on
r.a.p., and he was essentially stating that what most people
perceive as "tube warmth", is really "iron warmth" - not his
words, but i'm paraphrasing. IOW, transformers happen to exist
in all true (i.e.: NOT starved-plate) tube circuits, and so
when people hear tube channels/preamps/whatever, they hear
that "warm" sound - they think its the tubes, but it's not,
it's the BIG IRON!
>There is definitely a difference in the sonic footprint
>between solid state and tube. the "furriness" of tubes as
>opposed to a class "A" solid state circuit is very obvious
>with this preamp
Here's a good test - it's a simple no-brainer kinda thing, but
IMO, it displays "wooliness", or lack thereof, better than
anything else... just go up to your mic and get within six
inches or so, and sing a single note, somewhere between
an "Ahhhhh" and an "Uhhhhh" and hold that note for a few
seconds. Compare that to the same tube mic in a solid state
preamp or a non-tube mic through the previous tube preamp, etc.
"Wool" will either ensue - or not.
Warmth - however - is different... has to do with the iron in
the circuit... I tend to agree with Dorsey's observations on
this.
Neil
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93221 is a reply to message #93219] |
Fri, 30 November 2007 19:14 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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"Neil" <OIUOIU@OI.com> wrote in message news:4750be65$1@linux...
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>I recently purchased a Milennia SST-1.
>>
>>http://www.mil-media.com/stt-1.html
>
> That fuckin' RAWKS! I want it in the Platinum finish <drool,
> drool> lol. :D
>
>>It's just a matter of pushing a couple of buttons to dispel
>>the notion that a tube circuit has "anything" at all to do
>>with what is bandied about as "warmth".
>
> A few years ago, ISTR a disussion here that was actually
> spurred by a Scott Dorsey response to something I posted on
> r.a.p., and he was essentially stating that what most people
> perceive as "tube warmth", is really "iron warmth" - not his
> words, but i'm paraphrasing. IOW, transformers happen to exist
> in all true (i.e.: NOT starved-plate) tube circuits, and so
> when people hear tube channels/preamps/whatever, they hear
> that "warm" sound - they think its the tubes, but it's not,
> it's the BIG IRON!
>
>>There is definitely a difference in the sonic footprint
>>between solid state and tube. the "furriness" of tubes as
>>opposed to a class "A" solid state circuit is very obvious
>>with this preamp
>
> Here's a good test - it's a simple no-brainer kinda thing, but
> IMO, it displays "wooliness", or lack thereof, better than
> anything else... just go up to your mic and get within six
> inches or so, and sing a single note, somewhere between
> an "Ahhhhh" and an "Uhhhhh" and hold that note for a few
> seconds. Compare that to the same tube mic in a solid state
> preamp or a non-tube mic through the previous tube preamp, etc.
>
> "Wool" will either ensue - or not.
>
> Warmth - however - is different... has to do with the iron in
> the circuit... I tend to agree with Dorsey's observations on
> this.
>
> Neil
Neil,
The tube circuitry in this pre, really imparts a different timbre to the
signal. Some perception of air in the 6.5k and up frequency range without
any shelving boost or low cut. There's just some sparkle, just like you hear
with a tube circuit in a mic. Sometimes pairing two tube circuits like that
can just be too much and that sparkle becomes harshness/distortion. This
particular pre, though maybe a bit noisier in the tube circuit than the SS
circuit when driven hard, is one of the few that I have tried that I like
when paired with the tube mics I've got here. Perhaps that's because these
tube mics I've tried it with (SE Gemini, Peluso and Manley) all have pretty
hot output stages so I'm not really needing to drive the tube circuit in the
preamp that much, but there's something else too. I've got other tube pres
here that don't play as nice with my tube mics so go figure. At any rate, I
wouldn't mind having a few of these in my rack. The literature states that
there are over 134 different circuit combinations possible by switching the
different options in and out.
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93222 is a reply to message #93221] |
Fri, 30 November 2007 23:36 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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Good stuff man.
Tubes also exhibit group delay (frequency bands moving around in time)
and this is a good thing or bad thing depending on the application.
Also, transformers do not have to color things at all. The trannies that
people are reproducing today are based upon ones that did, but it is not
inherent in the technology.
This mic pre
http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1details.html
is cleaner and more detailed than the Millenia IMO, and uses the
Jensen JT-16-B transformer:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html
I have a handbuilt version of it I use on orchestras that is so clear and
transparent that I have never heard anything as good in 20 years, and
yes it has input transformers. Deane Jensen's mission in life was to take
the color out of transformers and make them more musical and he
succeeded. I asked him once how a transformer could make something
more clean and clear than without one. Seemed impossible to me.
He said that the problems the tranny solved are orders of magnitude worse
than the ones that remain with a proper transformer.
But we have found musical uses for the transformers that were colored
and "inferior". So it goes.
Here is what Millennia say:
Input Transformer Option
Millennia circuits are inherently
transformerless: it’s the truest path
to the accuracy and realism we seek.
But on aggressive sources such as
drums and electric bass, we’re also
fans of transformer-coupled inputs
such as Rupert Neve’s original
Class-A, all-discrete designs from
the 1960s. Our custom MIT-01
transformer provides its own “fat,”
euphonic coloration, adding pleasing
distortion at high dynamic
levels and wide frequency excursions.
It may not be lifelike, but the
larger than life sound can really cut
through a mix.
Deane would run screaming from the room.. heh heh
I still want one of those STT-1's though...
How do you like the EQ?
DC
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93223 is a reply to message #93222] |
Fri, 30 November 2007 22:38 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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The EQ is a thing of beauty Don. Sweetness man.....major headroom when
boosting. I like the EQ section in my Avalon 737 and use it a lot during
mixes in subtracive mode more than anything else. It just doesn't have the
mojo when boosting that the SST's EQ seems to have so far in my testing.
;o)
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475100d0$1@linux...
>
> Good stuff man.
>
> Tubes also exhibit group delay (frequency bands moving around in time)
> and this is a good thing or bad thing depending on the application.
>
> Also, transformers do not have to color things at all. The trannies that
> people are reproducing today are based upon ones that did, but it is not
> inherent in the technology.
>
> This mic pre
>
> http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1details.html
>
> is cleaner and more detailed than the Millenia IMO, and uses the
> Jensen JT-16-B transformer:
>
> http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html
>
> I have a handbuilt version of it I use on orchestras that is so clear and
> transparent that I have never heard anything as good in 20 years, and
> yes it has input transformers. Deane Jensen's mission in life was to
> take
> the color out of transformers and make them more musical and he
> succeeded. I asked him once how a transformer could make something
> more clean and clear than without one. Seemed impossible to me.
> He said that the problems the tranny solved are orders of magnitude worse
>
> than the ones that remain with a proper transformer.
>
> But we have found musical uses for the transformers that were colored
> and "inferior". So it goes.
>
> Here is what Millennia say:
>
> Input Transformer Option
> Millennia circuits are inherently
> transformerless: it's the truest path
> to the accuracy and realism we seek.
> But on aggressive sources such as
> drums and electric bass, we're also
> fans of transformer-coupled inputs
> such as Rupert Neve's original
> Class-A, all-discrete designs from
> the 1960s. Our custom MIT-01
> transformer provides its own "fat,"
> euphonic coloration, adding pleasing
> distortion at high dynamic
> levels and wide frequency excursions.
> It may not be lifelike, but the
> larger than life sound can really cut
> through a mix.
>
>
> Deane would run screaming from the room.. heh heh
>
> I still want one of those STT-1's though...
>
> How do you like the EQ?
>
> DC
>
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93224 is a reply to message #93223] |
Sat, 01 December 2007 00:02 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member |
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I wish you were nearby, I would love to punch my electric 6-string
in there with that EQ....
DC
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>The EQ is a thing of beauty Don. Sweetness man.....major headroom when
>boosting. I like the EQ section in my Avalon 737 and use it a lot during
>mixes in subtracive mode more than anything else. It just doesn't have the
>mojo when boosting that the SST's EQ seems to have so far in my testing.
>
>;o)
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475100d0$1@linux...
>>
>> Good stuff man.
>>
>> Tubes also exhibit group delay (frequency bands moving around in time)
>> and this is a good thing or bad thing depending on the application.
>>
>> Also, transformers do not have to color things at all. The trannies that
>> people are reproducing today are based upon ones that did, but it is not
>> inherent in the technology.
>>
>> This mic pre
>>
>> http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1details.html
>>
>> is cleaner and more detailed than the Millenia IMO, and uses the
>> Jensen JT-16-B transformer:
>>
>> http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html
>>
>> I have a handbuilt version of it I use on orchestras that is so clear
and
>> transparent that I have never heard anything as good in 20 years, and
>> yes it has input transformers. Deane Jensen's mission in life was to
>> take
>> the color out of transformers and make them more musical and he
>> succeeded. I asked him once how a transformer could make something
>> more clean and clear than without one. Seemed impossible to me.
>> He said that the problems the tranny solved are orders of magnitude worse
>>
>> than the ones that remain with a proper transformer.
>>
>> But we have found musical uses for the transformers that were colored
>> and "inferior". So it goes.
>>
>> Here is what Millennia say:
>>
>> Input Transformer Option
>> Millennia circuits are inherently
>> transformerless: it's the truest path
>> to the accuracy and realism we seek.
>> But on aggressive sources such as
>> drums and electric bass, we're also
>> fans of transformer-coupled inputs
>> such as Rupert Neve's original
>> Class-A, all-discrete designs from
>> the 1960s. Our custom MIT-01
>> transformer provides its own "fat,"
>> euphonic coloration, adding pleasing
>> distortion at high dynamic
>> levels and wide frequency excursions.
>> It may not be lifelike, but the
>> larger than life sound can really cut
>> through a mix.
>>
>>
>> Deane would run screaming from the room.. heh heh
>>
>> I still want one of those STT-1's though...
>>
>> How do you like the EQ?
>>
>> DC
>>
>
>
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93226 is a reply to message #93224] |
Fri, 30 November 2007 23:04 |
DJ
Messages: 1124
Registered: July 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
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Well.....now there's an excuse to come to Colorado if I ever heard one.
;o)
"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475106eb@linux...
>
> I wish you were nearby, I would love to punch my electric 6-string
> in there with that EQ....
>
>
> DC
>
>
> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>The EQ is a thing of beauty Don. Sweetness man.....major headroom when
>>boosting. I like the EQ section in my Avalon 737 and use it a lot during
>
>>mixes in subtracive mode more than anything else. It just doesn't have the
>
>>mojo when boosting that the SST's EQ seems to have so far in my testing.
>>
>>;o)
>>
>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475100d0$1@linux...
>>>
>>> Good stuff man.
>>>
>>> Tubes also exhibit group delay (frequency bands moving around in time)
>>> and this is a good thing or bad thing depending on the application.
>>>
>>> Also, transformers do not have to color things at all. The trannies
>>> that
>>> people are reproducing today are based upon ones that did, but it is not
>>> inherent in the technology.
>>>
>>> This mic pre
>>>
>>> http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1details.html
>>>
>>> is cleaner and more detailed than the Millenia IMO, and uses the
>>> Jensen JT-16-B transformer:
>>>
>>> http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html
>>>
>>> I have a handbuilt version of it I use on orchestras that is so clear
> and
>>> transparent that I have never heard anything as good in 20 years, and
>>> yes it has input transformers. Deane Jensen's mission in life was to
>
>>> take
>>> the color out of transformers and make them more musical and he
>>> succeeded. I asked him once how a transformer could make something
>>> more clean and clear than without one. Seemed impossible to me.
>>> He said that the problems the tranny solved are orders of magnitude
>>> worse
>>>
>>> than the ones that remain with a proper transformer.
>>>
>>> But we have found musical uses for the transformers that were colored
>>> and "inferior". So it goes.
>>>
>>> Here is what Millennia say:
>>>
>>> Input Transformer Option
>>> Millennia circuits are inherently
>>> transformerless: it's the truest path
>>> to the accuracy and realism we seek.
>>> But on aggressive sources such as
>>> drums and electric bass, we're also
>>> fans of transformer-coupled inputs
>>> such as Rupert Neve's original
>>> Class-A, all-discrete designs from
>>> the 1960s. Our custom MIT-01
>>> transformer provides its own "fat,"
>>> euphonic coloration, adding pleasing
>>> distortion at high dynamic
>>> levels and wide frequency excursions.
>>> It may not be lifelike, but the
>>> larger than life sound can really cut
>>> through a mix.
>>>
>>>
>>> Deane would run screaming from the room.. heh heh
>>>
>>> I still want one of those STT-1's though...
>>>
>>> How do you like the EQ?
>>>
>>> DC
>>>
>>
>>
>
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| Re: tubes vs solid state vs transformers vs transformerless [message #93228 is a reply to message #93226] |
Sat, 01 December 2007 02:08 |
dc[3]
Messages: 895
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I wish. We finally got some rain today. Roof in the studio leaks..
I would love to see the Rockies right now.
We have 4 projects going at work... yikes...
DC
"DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>Well.....now there's an excuse to come to Colorado if I ever heard one.
>
>;o)
>
>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475106eb@linux...
>>
>> I wish you were nearby, I would love to punch my electric 6-string
>> in there with that EQ....
>>
>>
>> DC
>>
>>
>> "DJ" <animix _ at _ animas _ dot _ net> wrote:
>>>The EQ is a thing of beauty Don. Sweetness man.....major headroom when
>>>boosting. I like the EQ section in my Avalon 737 and use it a lot during
>>
>>>mixes in subtracive mode more than anything else. It just doesn't have
the
>>
>>>mojo when boosting that the SST's EQ seems to have so far in my testing.
>>>
>>>;o)
>>>
>>>"DC" <dc@spammersinhell.com> wrote in message news:475100d0$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> Good stuff man.
>>>>
>>>> Tubes also exhibit group delay (frequency bands moving around in time)
>>>> and this is a good thing or bad thing depending on the application.
>>>>
>>>> Also, transformers do not have to color things at all. The trannies
>>>> that
>>>> people are reproducing today are based upon ones that did, but it is
not
>>>> inherent in the technology.
>>>>
>>>> This mic pre
>>>>
>>>> http://www.johnhardyco.com/M-1details.html
>>>>
>>>> is cleaner and more detailed than the Millenia IMO, and uses the
>>>> Jensen JT-16-B transformer:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html
>>>>
>>>> I have a handbuilt version of it I use on orchestras that is so clear
>> and
>>>> transparent that I have never heard anything as good in 20 years, and
>>>> yes it has input transformers. Deane Jensen's mission in life was
to
>>
>>>> take
>>>> the color out of transformers and make them more musical and he
>>>> succeeded. I asked him once how a transformer could make something
>>>> more clean and clear than without one. Seemed impossible to me.
>>>> He said that the problems the tranny solved are orders of magnitude
>>>> worse
>>>>
>>>> than the ones that remain with a proper transformer.
>>>>
>>>> But we have found musical uses for the transformers that were colored
>>>> and "inferior". So it goes.
>>>>
>>>> Here is what Millennia say:
>>>>
>>>> Input Transformer Option
>>>> Millennia circuits are inherently
>>>> transformerless: it's the truest path
>>>> to the accuracy and realism we seek.
>>>> But on aggressive sources such as
>>>> drums and electric bass, we're also
>>>> fans of transformer-coupled inputs
>>>> such as Rupert Neve's original
>>>> Class-A, all-discrete designs from
>>>> the 1960s. Our custom MIT-01
>>>> transformer provides its own "fat,"
>>>> euphonic coloration, adding pleasing
>>>> distortion at high dynamic
>>>> levels and wide frequency excursions.
>>>> It may not be lifelike, but the
>>>> larger than life sound can really cut
>>>> through a mix.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Deane would run screaming from the room.. heh heh
>>>>
>>>> I still want one of those STT-1's though...
>>>>
>>>> How do you like the EQ?
>>>>
>>>> DC
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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