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How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104938] Tue, 02 March 2010 16:04 Go to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
Hey All,
I'm trying to use the 24 bit converters.
It seem to me they have a veiled sound to them (losings the
excitement ot the performance). If I go
Thu the main converters (on the MEC). Seems like the
one's on the Mec are 16bit right? So is it dithering the
24 bit sound down to 16 on playback?
Every one that I know (that have used Paris) says the same thing.
That the 16bit sounds way better. YES/NO?

Now if I go back Thu the 24 bit output converts too, will it sound right again?

The other thing is Paris seem to lose some of the dynamics
when you try and mix in the box. ( I know a lot of system do this for some reason) But when you assign then back to mono channels they sound better again. Maybe it's my settings or something. My son was thinking it's in the software along the line (sons a programmer).

I was thinking there is a way to optimize Paris that I don't know about Or I'm missing something.

My friend has Pro tools HD and he is summing into a mixer.
Seems like the main mix buss (on most software based) needs more resolution in order handles the main buss mix.

I don't have this problem with 2" tape (but the hiss).
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104940 is a reply to message #104938] Tue, 02 March 2010 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009
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A few notes:

The built-in convertors of the MEC are 20 bit; the 8i and 8o expansion cards are 24-bit. The PARIS clock and converters are excellent for their vintage, but in the big picture a high-quality external clock's been suggested as a good upgrade, and some have reported good results with higher-quality A/D convertors as well.

I think a lot of folks over the years have found that PARIS suggests more of a "warm" or "vintage" or "analog-like" sound, as compared to say Apogee convertors which I tend to think of as "shiny" or even "crystalline". I find it "punchy" - it treats my bass like I want bass to be treated.

The mix bus of PARIS is widely considered one of PARIS' best features - certainly head and shoulders above many DAWs.

If your son's a programmer, he may find this interesting.


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon

[Updated on: Tue, 02 March 2010 20:34]

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Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104942 is a reply to message #104940] Tue, 02 March 2010 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
Yea I do use a Aardvark/AardSync to clock the two Paris systems.
It was the king in it's day also ($1700.00+-) So sure there maybe better now (Big Ben).

Yes Paris is great on the bass.

Just seams to lose something. So maybe need to look in the computer and check everything.

I think I will also sum to my large mixer and see how that will sound.

Something is going on and I'm losing good sound along the way.
Right now I buss right out from the 16 buses of my main mixer.
Straight into Paris.

JA.
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104946 is a reply to message #104942] Wed, 03 March 2010 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesandbox1 is currently offline  thesandbox1   UNITED STATES
Messages: 167
Registered: July 2009
Location: Carmel, IN
Senior Member
Also try the spdif out of the MEC if you have a converter that accepts spidf in for monitoring as this is 24bit. I have a sony DAT DTC-700 (also takes lightpipe digital in/out) that I use just for that for what it's worth. I also just got a pair of BAE 1023's and have been trying those on the mix bus (along with a BIG BEN as master clock now) of some mixes and...well....mmmmmm..mmmmmmmm Wink



Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104947 is a reply to message #104938] Wed, 03 March 2010 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesandbox1 is currently offline  thesandbox1   UNITED STATES
Messages: 167
Registered: July 2009
Location: Carmel, IN
Senior Member
also on the global mix...

use the EQ4+ and add a 2-3db boost at 20KHz (parametric 1=on) and also a 2-3 db boost with a hi-shelf (1=on) of around 11Khz.

A good stereo comp setting as well that BT used alot...
Thresh- -16.0
Ratio -1.25
Attack - .0032
Release - .034
Lookahead - .02
Output - 3.2

These two additions on the Global Mix bus I think will help a bit as well.


Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104950 is a reply to message #104947] Wed, 03 March 2010 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
I will have to give that a shot. Yes the over all mix
seem a little week in the high end. Low end is fine.
So yea that eq setting my help out a lot. Still need to
get more under the hood and test a few things out.

Has anyone had any luck with using the A-dats cards and
using APOGEE AD-8000 24 BIT DIGITAL AUDIO CONVERTER AD8000.

Would this be a huge step above the stock converters for like vocals, real time Lexicon re-verbs? I don't like the tails
of my verbs cut off by the converters. I know, I know we are
not at 96k or better sample rate.

Cheers,

Jeff
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104986 is a reply to message #104938] Wed, 10 March 2010 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
damien is currently offline  damien   FRANCE
Messages: 36
Registered: October 2008
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Maybe your 4 in/out are set to +4db and your 8 out are set to -10db ?

Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104987 is a reply to message #104986] Wed, 10 March 2010 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
No, it's all at +4.
I did find one thing. My 16 channel Mogami 16 channel snake is wired out of phase. Very strange. Could be why it was such a good deal on ebay. So now I have to rewire the TRS ends right.
I got a cable tester and that's how I found out. I found some poor connections on the TRS ends too.

I was wiring up my tri-amp 3000 watt pa system and needed a patch from my BBE Speaker MGMT system to the amps. So I noticed
the speakers sounded strange also and one tweeter had poor sound also. So I switched to a different cable it fixed it. So my Mogani has to be repaired before I can go anywhere now with Paris. I will update after I take care of the cable and recheck the system.

I know my wife (the singer) was telling my it's a very bad sounding recording system I bought. She was not happy with her voice after playback. Yes, my A-dats where blowing Paris away.
Same Allen & Heath (System Cool and also my 1977 Soundcraft Series
Three. Both great sounding consoles. I was using elco snake's on the A-dats.

So off to the store and I will get her done today and record some more tomorrow.

Cheers,

Jeff
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104988 is a reply to message #104987] Wed, 10 March 2010 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
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LOL. Yeah - that'd certainly explain ADATs sounding better than *anything*, up to and including dead silence - and particularly PARIS.

Wasn't there some story about SSC having a shooting range out back of his house where folks were invited to bring Alesis equipment for shotgun practice?


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104990 is a reply to message #104988] Wed, 10 March 2010 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
Yep that would explain the whole story.

Is there a range for shooting A-dats? Maybe not
yet. They are still the stellar king to (my wife).
If we ever divorce she can take them and I will take
the paris. Seems only fair.

Cheers,

Jeff
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104992 is a reply to message #104947] Thu, 11 March 2010 04:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
thesandbox1 wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 14:53
also on the global mix...

use the EQ4+ and add a 2-3db boost at 20KHz (parametric 1=on) and also a 2-3 db boost with a hi-shelf (1=on) of around 11Khz.

A good stereo comp setting as well that BT used alot...
Thresh- -16.0
Ratio -1.25
Attack - .0032
Release - .034
Lookahead - .02
Output - 3.2

These two additions on the Global Mix bus I think will help a bit as well.



Ok, I just don't see anything on a global mix bus for EQ. I see them on the 16 input channels but not the mix buss or the master buss. Where are you guys finding it. I know I can add comp. on the bus and master.

Oh, yea bye the way my system is sounding much better now with it's wires in phase. Also there where channel 6 that had a strand of wire bridging pin 1 & 2. That's the reason for the poor high end sound also. Looks like someone rewired the harness it did not come that way (im sure).

Cheers,

Jeff
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104994 is a reply to message #104938] Thu, 11 March 2010 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
damien is currently offline  damien   FRANCE
Messages: 36
Registered: October 2008
Member
BTW trisound (or anyone else) :

I'm very curious to hear your opinion about recording on two inches or on digital, as you are able to compare it in same room. More about sound than workflow aspects.

In fact i wonder what are the reasons for using digital rather than a properly set up tape machine, if you have access to both solution. I can guess it could be cost of tape (this one is a real), analog recorder maintenance (but what, how many hours did we spent tweaking computers ?), ability to fix bad playing (mm yes but, why recording a bad perfomrmance ? anyway, it can not really be fixed, i learned it the hard way), hiss (OK). Probably the most important reason is when you have to deal with huge track counts, and lot of automation.

anyhow, i'd be glad to hear about this.

And don't get me wrong paris guys : i took paris because it was and is still the best solution fitting my budget. there's no question about the fact it sounds good.

[Updated on: Thu, 11 March 2010 05:47]

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Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104995 is a reply to message #104994] Thu, 11 March 2010 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TriSound Recording is currently offline  TriSound Recording   UNITED STATES
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2009
Location: Federal Way, Wa.
Member
Well I like both and also use them together (not always).
For my personal recording, Yea bring on the 2" tape machine.
There is nothing like the sound of 2" tape on a drum set.
I'm sorry it just has that compressed sound you can't (Yet)
get on a draw. It's getting closer.

Tape is not cheep (at all) and hard to get today.
With the impact on mother earth they have to chance the
way they can build tape. Before long there will be no supplier's
for tape and it will only be draws.

Yes you have hiss, but that can be taken care of with the draw.
I like to hit the tape and then take it to the computer for editing. Adding more tracks that sound supper clean.

So yea I do it both ways still (for now).
You know you can't bet the speed and prefect editing with the computer software. I love both & hate them at the some time.
Both have there own problems as you said. (hiss, computer- problems, software clinches, Heads needing relaped, parts you can't even get for some older 2" machines. Which is most now.

You know you have to listen to some of Steely Dan, Yes, and some of the great Jazz, blues player of the 70's & 80's a lot of fine recording. Most of was 2" machines. Then again there was also
poorly recorded albums too.

I just don't like, lets slam all the records into the red all the time. Call me old but I like dynamics in my music. It's fine for some music but not every thing.

Let's get back to quality and not quantity. To me great sound is every thing. Also nice to have performers that know how to play too.

"You will have to pry my 2" recorder & Paris Pro out of my cold dead hands first."

Cheers,

Jeff
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104998 is a reply to message #104938] Thu, 11 March 2010 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
damien is currently offline  damien   FRANCE
Messages: 36
Registered: October 2008
Member

Jeff, i remember when i was 20 : i already liked what a simple 1/4" 4 tracks did on my lame drums tracks.
but i've never used any tape machine since. Only played on an album cut live on 2" (tascam) and mixed on an amek. Sound was good. But i also heard some bad sounding records from same studio same tech. He was mostly a rock n roll guy, and we were a rock and roll band so ...

If i get your point, sonically the main advantage of tape is how it behaves with drums transient. A kind of processing before you dump to digital. Some others praise analog as an accurate recording media. They feel loosing something when sound come back from a digital device.

If you can deal without hard core editing, don't you choose analog from end to end ? (regardless the style of the music). Does'nt it glue the things together, and make music easyer to mix from your standpoint ?

BTW, to stay a little in topic, i feel paris tame the high end. Not a roll off, something more subtile, and that's maybe a reason why it's known as an "analog sounding" system. It's obvious if i compare with m audio ADDA for example. Those sounds really hard, i don't like at all.
Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #104999 is a reply to message #104992] Thu, 11 March 2010 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thesandbox1 is currently offline  thesandbox1   ITALY
Messages: 167
Registered: July 2009
Location: Carmel, IN
Senior Member
The Eq (EQ+4) is the one from Mike Audet's page. I just started using that on the Global Insert after talking to the mastering engineer on one of my last projects and noticing that was one area that he was bumping on about every song.

ALSO....not sure if this is anywhere or not but for those that use other platforms in conjunction with PARIS here is a copy of the PARIS EQ in VST I found and has always been well liked.

http://www.hometracked.com/2007/05/09/download-the-paris-eq- vst/

TriSound Recording wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 04:54
thesandbox1 wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 14:53
also on the global mix...

use the EQ4+ and add a 2-3db boost at 20KHz (parametric 1=on) and also a 2-3 db boost with a hi-shelf (1=on) of around 11Khz.

A good stereo comp setting as well that BT used alot...
Thresh- -16.0
Ratio -1.25
Attack - .0032
Release - .034
Lookahead - .02
Output - 3.2

These two additions on the Global Mix bus I think will help a bit as well.



Ok, I just don't see anything on a global mix bus for EQ. I see them on the 16 input channels but not the mix buss or the master buss. Where are you guys finding it. I know I can add comp. on the bus and master.

Oh, yea bye the way my system is sounding much better now with it's wires in phase. Also there where channel 6 that had a strand of wire bridging pin 1 & 2. That's the reason for the poor high end sound also. Looks like someone rewired the harness it did not come that way (im sure).

Cheers,

Jeff



Re: How to use the 24 bit converters ? [message #105000 is a reply to message #104990] Thu, 11 March 2010 09:52 Go to previous message
kerryg is currently offline  kerryg   CANADA
Messages: 1529
Registered: February 2009
Senior Member
Administrator
TriSound Recording wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 14:08
Yep that would explain the whole story.

Is there a range for shooting A-dats? Maybe not
yet. They are still the stellar king to (my wife).
If we ever divorce she can take them and I will take
the paris. Seems only fair.

Cheers,

Jeff


I did a little hunting around for the source of the story I just relayed about SSC and it seems I misremembered some important details. In the version of the story I could find, it was a Lexicon 480L and the weapon was a .44 Very Happy


"... being bitter is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other guy to die..." - anon
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