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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68204 is a reply to message #68203] |
Sun, 14 May 2006 09:23   |
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Deej [1]
Messages: 2149
Registered: January 2006
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Senior Member |
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Don,
For me at least, part of the beauty of micing a kit is the bleed of one mic
into another......sort of like a glue that keeps the entire instrument (the
instrument being the entire kit) coherent.
YMMV.....this is strictly my view of it. BFD can do this though. That's
what's so cool about it. At some point I'll probably buy a kit for the
studio and load it up with good midi triggers, but also, there is hope on
the horizon since Drumagog has a BFD version that triggers BFD samples
directly from the BFD VSTi so you coul, in theiry just mic up a bunch of
cardboard boxes and then replace the sound with BFD samples. I was beta
testing this for a while but had to drop out due to other commitments. I'm
going to revisit it soon though. It worked very well at 1.5 and 3ms latency
in cubase SX. Unfortunately, this isn't good enough for prime time in a big
mix unless you're on a dual Opteron and don't have to worry about buffers.
Deej
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44674f65@linux...
> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
sound
> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>
> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks, be
> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
quite
> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>
> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
> accompaniment to this kit
>
> YMMV
>
> Don
>
> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
> >
> > I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum sets.
> > Any
> > ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their sounds
> > are
> > any good.
> >
> >
http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4
_TD12.html
>
>
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68219 is a reply to message #68217] |
Sun, 14 May 2006 14:12 |
Aaron Allen
Messages: 1988
Registered: May 2008
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Senior Member |
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Not so fast :)
My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples in
it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows this
I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't expect
that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with the MPC and a
drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The closest thing to
that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
AA
"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>
> Don
>
> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>
>
> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>
>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if you
>> get
>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>
>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most will
>>
>>>disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>
>>>the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20 has
>>
>>>room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at the
>>
>>>Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>
>>>And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland drum
>>
>>>triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>
>>>Don
>>>
>>>
>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there any
>>
>>>> expandable
>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit them
>>
>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>> different
>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>
>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
>>>>>module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
>>
>>>>>sound
>>>>
>>>>>fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>
>>>>>In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>> be
>>>>
>>>>>able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
>>
>>>>>quite
>>>>
>>>>>realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>
>>>>>That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>
>>>>>YMMV
>>>>>
>>>>>Don
>>>>>
>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>> sets.
>>>>
>>>>>> Any
>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>> sounds
>>>>
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68228 is a reply to message #68219] |
Sun, 14 May 2006 16:02 |
Don Nafe
Messages: 1206
Registered: July 2005
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Senior Member |
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Ah forgot about the DM Pro
dcn
"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
> Not so fast :)
>
> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows
> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with the
> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>
> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>
> AA
>
> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>
>> Don
>>
>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>
>>
>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>
>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if you
>>> get
>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>
>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most will
>>>
>>>>disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>
>>>>the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>>>>has
>>>
>>>>room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at the
>>>
>>>>Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>
>>>>And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland drum
>>>
>>>>triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>
>>>>Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there any
>>>
>>>>> expandable
>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>>>> them
>>>
>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>> different
>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
>>>>>>module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
>>>
>>>>>>sound
>>>>>
>>>>>>fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>>able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
>>>
>>>>>>quite
>>>>>
>>>>>>realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>YMMV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68259 is a reply to message #68216] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 08:43 |
jef knight[1]
Messages: 201
Registered: October 2005
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Senior Member |
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is it just my take on things, or is there a ton of "hot" stuff on ebay?
j
DJ wrote:
>yes
>
>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677dd5@linux...
>
>
>>Did I just miss the deal of the decade? http://tinyurl.com/zjok9
>>
>>John wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if you
>>>
>>>
>get
>
>
>>>tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>
>>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>
>>>>the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>>>>
>>>>
>has
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>
>>>>And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland drum
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>
>>>>Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there any
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>expandable
>>>>>sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit them
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>(volumes/pans)
>>>>>through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>different
>
>
>>>>>kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
>>>>>>module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>sound
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>quite
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>YMMV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>sets.
>
>
>>>>>>>Any
>>>>>>>ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>sounds
>
>
>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>any good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>R_6-4_TD12.html
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68260 is a reply to message #68228] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 08:45 |
jef knight[1]
Messages: 201
Registered: October 2005
|
Senior Member |
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I actually *like* the sounds in my dm-pro's,.....but you're right, Don,
about using bfd or such....even just for the variety and better cymbals..
j
Don Nafe wrote:
>Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>
>dcn
>
>
>"Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>
>
>>Not so fast :)
>>
>>My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>>in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows
>>this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>>expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with the
>>MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>>closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>
>>And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>
>>AA
>>
>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>
>>
>>>Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
>>>option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>>>3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>
>>>Don
>>>
>>>ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>
>>>
>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>
>>>
>>>>And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if you
>>>>get
>>>>tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>
>>>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most will
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>
>>>>>the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>>>>>has
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>
>>>>>And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland drum
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>
>>>>>Don
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there any
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>expandable
>>>>>>sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>>>>>them
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(volumes/pans)
>>>>>>through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>>different
>>>>>>kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
>>>>>>>module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>sound
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>>incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>quite
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>>accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>YMMV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>>>sets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Any
>>>>>>>>ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>>>sounds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>any good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68270 is a reply to message #68228] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 11:36 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs also supports sample import via smartmedia cards.
DDrum 4 supports one shot sampling import via MIDI.
DDrum 3 supports multi-layered sampling.
DDrum 5 should be something special in another year or three.
You don't necessarily need a dedicated computer to run Battery 2, BFD or
Superior.
BTW, Battery 2 lets import any .wav file or combination of files. You
can trigger them by velocity and even round robin left/right hits, it's
very flexible.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
Don Nafe wrote:
> Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>
> dcn
>
>
> "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>> Not so fast :)
>>
>> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows
>> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with the
>> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>
>> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>
>> AA
>>
>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
>>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>
>>>
>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if you
>>>> get
>>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>
>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>> If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most will
>>>>> disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>
>>>>> the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>>>>> has
>>>>> room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at the
>>>>> Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland drum
>>>>> triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there any
>>>>>> expandable
>>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the TD 12
>>>>>>> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics still
>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>>> be
>>>>>>> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can be a
>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>> accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YMMV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>
>
>
|
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| Re: Electronic drums [message #68272 is a reply to message #68270] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 12:19 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Can any do hi-hats like the TD20 roland?
Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs also supports sample import via smartmedia cards.
>
>DDrum 4 supports one shot sampling import via MIDI.
>
>DDrum 3 supports multi-layered sampling.
>
>DDrum 5 should be something special in another year or three.
>
>You don't necessarily need a dedicated computer to run Battery 2, BFD or
>Superior.
>
>BTW, Battery 2 lets import any .wav file or combination of files. You
>can trigger them by velocity and even round robin left/right hits, it's
>very flexible.
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>Don Nafe wrote:
>> Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>>
>> dcn
>>
>>
>> "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>>> Not so fast :)
>>>
>>> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>>> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows
>>> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>>> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with
the
>>> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>>> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>>
>>> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>>
>>> AA
>>>
>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
>>>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>>>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if
you
>>>>> get
>>>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most
will
>>>>>> disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at
the
>>>>>> Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland
drum
>>>>>> triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there
any
>>>>>>> expandable
>>>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the
TD 12
>>>>>>>> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics
still
>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>>> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can
be a
>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>>> accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> YMMV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>>
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Electronic drums [message #68275 is a reply to message #68272] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 13:16 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Not sure what you mean. What are you wanting the hihats to do specifically?
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
John wrote:
> Can any do hi-hats like the TD20 roland?
>
> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs also supports sample import via smartmedia cards.
>>
>> DDrum 4 supports one shot sampling import via MIDI.
>>
>> DDrum 3 supports multi-layered sampling.
>>
>> DDrum 5 should be something special in another year or three.
>>
>> You don't necessarily need a dedicated computer to run Battery 2, BFD or
>
>> Superior.
>>
>> BTW, Battery 2 lets import any .wav file or combination of files. You
>> can trigger them by velocity and even round robin left/right hits, it's
>
>> very flexible.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> Don Nafe wrote:
>>> Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>>>
>>> dcn
>>>
>>>
>>> "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>>>> Not so fast :)
>>>>
>>>> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>
>>>> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that allows
>
>>>> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>
>>>> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with
> the
>>>> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>
>>>> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>>
>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>>>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the other
>
>>>>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>>>>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if
> you
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>> If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most
> will
>>>>>>> disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the TD20
>
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look at
> the
>>>>>>> Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland
> drum
>>>>>>> triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there
> any
>>>>>>>> expandable
>>>>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the
> TD 12
>>>>>>>>> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics
> still
>>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>>> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer tracks,
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>>>> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they can
> be a
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>>>> accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> YMMV
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>
>>>>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>
>>>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>>>
>>>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Electronic drums [message #68278 is a reply to message #68275] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 13:49 |
John [1]
Messages: 2229
Registered: September 2005
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Most electronic drums suck on doing authentic hi-hat. So I"m looking for
a drum set that does hi-hat like a real one. The TD20 is amazing but 5 grand.
lJamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>Not sure what you mean. What are you wanting the hihats to do specifically?
>
>Cheers,
> -Jamie
> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>
>
>John wrote:
>> Can any do hi-hats like the TD20 roland?
>>
>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>> The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs also supports sample import via smartmedia cards.
>>>
>>> DDrum 4 supports one shot sampling import via MIDI.
>>>
>>> DDrum 3 supports multi-layered sampling.
>>>
>>> DDrum 5 should be something special in another year or three.
>>>
>>> You don't necessarily need a dedicated computer to run Battery 2, BFD
or
>>
>>> Superior.
>>>
>>> BTW, Battery 2 lets import any .wav file or combination of files. You
>>> can trigger them by velocity and even round robin left/right hits, it's
>>
>>> very flexible.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Don Nafe wrote:
>>>> Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>>>>
>>>> dcn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>>>>> Not so fast :)
>>>>>
>>>>> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>>
>>>>> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that
allows
>>
>>>>> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>>
>>>>> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with
>> the
>>>>> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>>
>>>>> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>>>>
>>>>> AA
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>>>>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the
other
>>
>>>>>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>>>>>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>>>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if
>> you
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most
>> will
>>>>>>>> disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the
TD20
>>
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look
at
>> the
>>>>>>>> Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland
>> drum
>>>>>>>> triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there
>> any
>>>>>>>>> expandable
>>>>>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the
>> TD 12
>>>>>>>>>> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics
>> still
>>>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>>>> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer
tracks,
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>>>>> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they
can
>> be a
>>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>>>>> accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> YMMV
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>>>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Electronic drums [message #68282 is a reply to message #68278] |
Mon, 15 May 2006 16:21 |
Jamie K
Messages: 1115
Registered: July 2006
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The DDrum 4 does an OK hihat with the internal sounds. Works fine for
live stuff. It's even more flexible for triggering external sounds via
MIDI because it has positional sensing as well as sensing foot position.
The foot position range is narrower than I'd like but usable.
The internal sounds are limited in variation. Triggering an external
sampler like Battery 2 allows you to set up more sets of samples to
switch between as you open the hihats.
The pad is a single rugged surface rather than two cymbals. It doesn't
move which is fine w/me. A sensor moves. The hihat pad mounts on a
normal hihat stand.
The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs seemed OK when I tried it out. It's been a while
since I played it so I can't get too specific. But I believe it was also
a single cymbal on a regular hihat stand.
Best would be to try them out yourself and see if they live up to your
expectations.
If I were buying an electronic kit today my top three contenders would
be the DDrum 4 (used w/cast precision pads since that configuration is
not available new), Yamaha DTXTremeIIS (probably the most flexible
current system) and Roland TD20 (perhaps with Hart pads).
To be fair, while the DDrum 4 with the currently available pads gives up
positional sensing on those pads, the other sets don't offer positional
sensing at all. So if you don't need positional sensing I'd throw the
currently available version of the DDrum 4 into the mix.
The DDrum 3 (only available used) could be a nice addition to the DDrum
4 for additional trigger inputs and custom sampling.
I have the DDrum 4 cast precision kit for live performance and studio
triggering, augmented by an Alesis D4 for additional trigger inputs,
along with Battery 2 for very customizable recording kits. Someday the
DDrum 5 may be much like this setup but more integrated.
Cheers,
-Jamie
http://www.JamieKrutz.com
John wrote:
> Most electronic drums suck on doing authentic hi-hat. So I"m looking for
> a drum set that does hi-hat like a real one. The TD20 is amazing but 5 grand.
>
> lJamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>> Not sure what you mean. What are you wanting the hihats to do specifically?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Jamie
>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>
>>
>> John wrote:
>>> Can any do hi-hats like the TD20 roland?
>>>
>>> Jamie K <Meta@Dimensional.com> wrote:
>>>> The Yamaha DTXtremeIIs also supports sample import via smartmedia cards.
>>>>
>>>> DDrum 4 supports one shot sampling import via MIDI.
>>>>
>>>> DDrum 3 supports multi-layered sampling.
>>>>
>>>> DDrum 5 should be something special in another year or three.
>>>>
>>>> You don't necessarily need a dedicated computer to run Battery 2, BFD
> or
>>>> Superior.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, Battery 2 lets import any .wav file or combination of files. You
>
>>>> can trigger them by velocity and even round robin left/right hits, it's
>>>> very flexible.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -Jamie
>>>> http://www.JamieKrutz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don Nafe wrote:
>>>>> Ah forgot about the DM Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> dcn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Aaron Allen" <nospam@not_here.dude> wrote in message news:44679c53@linux...
>>>>>> Not so fast :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My DM Pro allows me to purchase a blank 8 Mb card and load my own samples
>>>>>> in it. If there is another hardware drum specific machine/unit that
> allows
>>>>>> this I am not aware of it... with stuff out there like Drumagog I don't
>>>>>> expect that to change. One could however, do what you're saying with
>>> the
>>>>>> MPC and a drum trigger convertor.. which opens a whole world up. The
>>>>>> closest thing to that I know of is the SPD series from Roland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes, that was a good find on the roland kit John.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote in message news:44679a4b$1@linux...
>>>>>>> Actually only the ddrum brain allows you to sample (I think)...the
> other
>>>>>>> option would be buying the pads and picking up an Akai MPC 2000 or
>
>>>>>>> 3000...which I believe allow you to load all sorts of samples
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ps. yes that was the steal of the century
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44677633$1@linux...
>>>>>>>> And it doesn't appear that the Rolands let you load samples. So if
>>> you
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> tired of the sounds you're screwed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If you're picky about the sound of cymbals hihats etc I think most
>>> will
>>>>>>>>> disappoint you, of course YMMV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the TD 20, ddrum etc are the top of the line (read $$$$) and the
> TD20
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> room for dozens of kits so I'd start my search there...also look
> at
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Roland pads they're not too shabby.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And Deej - Pierre at Hart is now recommending th new line of Roland
>>> drum
>>>>>>>>> triggers as the best on the market...in fact he raved about them
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44676c05$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>> I'm really don't want a dedicated computer for drums so, are there
>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> expandable
>>>>>>>>>> sound modules that have DW quality drums and such where I can edit
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> (volumes/pans)
>>>>>>>>>> through midi and add sounds to them? Ideally I'd like a dozen
>
>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>> kits with pro rock and jazz kits and a few kits with wacky sounds.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, what electronic drum kits are the best for realistic hi-hats?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Don Nafe" <dnafe@magma.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hart dynamics are as good as they come. as for the sounds on the
>>> TD 12
>>>>>>>>>>> module, you will need to tweak them a bit and for me electronics
>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>>>>> fake but I am being incredible picky when I say that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In reality you'll have more control over your drums, use fewer
> tracks,
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> able to easily alter drum tracks and as long as 1) the drums aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly prominent and 2) you learn how to tweak them, they
> can
>>> be a
>>>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>> realistic replacement for acoustic drums.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That being said you may want to look into BFD and/or DKFH as an
>>>>>>>>>>> accompaniment to this kit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> YMMV
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "John" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:44674516$1@linux...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking for a stand alone system with great rock / jazz drum
>>>>>>>>>>>> sets.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Any
>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas? I like the demo of this drumset but don't know if their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> any good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hartdynamics.tv/video/QT_HS_VIDEO/drumsets/HART_S TUDIO_MASTER_6-4_TD12.html
>>>>>> I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
>>>>>> http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
>>>>>>
>
|
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